A pithy message for ZPG Zealot

[Skald the Rhymer]

In this thread I started asking non-biological parents to share their storie (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=555983)s, ZPG Zealot write:

I have been the legal Guardian of my youngest brother for most of his life. I've always found the term parent very offensive and perfer to be known as a Guardian.

Persons familiar with ZZ's posting history will understand why this remark, however irksome, is hardly surprising. This vile thread of hers is characteristic but hardly unique (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=548442&highlight=adoption). Perusing it will make clear why I judge engaging her in conversation to be fruitless.

My first impulse was to invite ZPG to go fuck herself. But then I remembered that fucking is a good thing; I certainly enjoy it, and I'm not about to wish good things on her. Next I considered requesting that she consume a great amount of her own feces, but that too seems inappropriate; she is so full of shit that she cannot possibly have an asshole. Other colorful insults seemed similarly inapplicable. Finally, it occurred to me that no fate can be worse than actually living in her own miserable head, so that is the vile fate I shall wish upon her.

That is all.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Well, what I do is parent, so being called a parent seems like a good enough title for me.

What a whack-a-doodle.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Well, what I do is parent, so being called a parent seems like a good enough title for me.

What a whack-a-doodle.

I know, and that's why I'm offended. I'm supposed to be the resident lunatic. Say so right in the FAQ, it does. :D

[Sarahfeena]

I can understand, when taking over guardianship of a relative, that a person might want to continue using the terms that have already been established, whether it be sibling, aunt/uncle, grandparent, whatever. How that's relevant to an adoptive or step parent situation, I'm not sure.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I can understand, when taking over guardianship of a relative, that a person might want to continue using the terms that have already been established, whether it be sibling, aunt/uncle, grandparent, whatever. How that's relevant to an adoptive or step parent situation, I'm not sure.

I wasn't vexed at that. I was vexed at the unprovoked and pointlessly mean insult to adoptive parents. Also she didn't offer me any cookies.

[DianaG]

Dear ZPG Zealot.

Parent. ParentParentParentParentParent. ParentParentParent. Parent.

Huggles,
DianaG

[bobkitty]

I genuinely don't understand why you're offended. You set up a thread asking for stories/experiences/whatever, and she.. gave you her experience. It's not like she said "I've never understood why non-biological custodians delude themselves into thinking that they're actual parents, and have always found the term parent very offensive. I prefer to ground myself in reality and be known as a Guardian.'

If we had a thread where someone was marrying a person with kids, and the soon-to-be-stepparent was absolutely insistent that the kids call them mom/dad despite the wishes of the kids and the (involved) biological parents, most of us would be *all over* that person. Why shouldn't the reverse also be true? I'm a stepparent, my stepkids were 10 and 11 when we met, and they have never called me mom or referred to me as such (they introduce me as their stepmother or, depending on the audience, their dad's wife). I'd be hugely uncomfortable if they had- their mom (while not very bright) had custody, raised them, did everything a mom does. Why would I take that title from her??

I know stepparents who have tremendous amounts of resentment toward their stepkids- some deserved, some not- who would be *horrified* to be referred to as mom or dad, or a parent. Are they deserving of your anger as well?

To each their own.. if you didn't want dissenting opinions, perhaps you should've said so.

[Ogre]

I wasn't vexed at that. I was vexed at the unprovoked and pointlessly mean insult to adoptive parents. Also she didn't offer me any cookies.Don't worry about it. She appears to be the type of person who would dangle them in front of you and demand that you call them turds before you could have any.

[Sarahfeena]

I wasn't vexed at that. I was vexed at the unprovoked and pointlessly mean insult to adoptive parents. Also she didn't offer me any cookies.

Yeah, I get that it was clearly the wrong thread to be spreading anti-adoption bigotry. It might have been nice to hear a little more about her relationship with her brother that she had guardianship of, that being the purpose of the thread. But, alas.

[Tom Tildrum]

Is it possible that all she meant was that she considers it offensive in her specific case, i.e., since she is in fact the boy's sister, it sounds weird to call her his mother?

It's still an out-of-place comment and poorly phrased if this was her intent, but perhaps it wasn't intended as an insult to other posters.

[AClockworkMelon]

When you adopt a child as your own, aren't they adopting you as their parent???

Seems really silly that anyone would make a big deal out of it, seems even sillier that someone would be "very offended" by it.

At the same time, I'm not sure if I'm missing something. You're telling her to go fuck herself because of the quoted remark or are there some other specific posts you can point me to? I love a good quarrel, but I think I might be missing some of the background info.

:3

[Sarahfeena]

Is it possible that all she meant was that she considers it offensive in her specific case, i.e., since she is in fact the boy's sister, it sounds weird to call her his mother?

It's still an out-of-place comment and poorly phrased if this was her intent, but perhaps it wasn't intended as an insult to other posters.

No. I can see if you aren't familiar with ZPG Zealot, you might think that. But take a look at the other thread that Skald linked to, and you'll learn all about her rather...interesting...views on adoption.

[Smeghead]

Yeah, this one is all about context. You have to read the other thread to understand the vexation. Sort of like how many of Cesario's posts would have seemed harmless if you didn't know who he was.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I genuinely don't understand why you're offended.

Read the post above yours. It was the unprovoked and churlish insult of adoptive parents that vexed me. I'll happily admit that one must be familiar with her posting history to read the subtext. It would be as if--oh--as if someone asked for feedback on a poem, and I posted that in my view the verse in question was as skillfully created as the third Lord of the Rings movie. Anybody who knows me would know that I was taking a shot.

There was no point to that shot.

[Heart of Dorkness]

It's not like she said "I've never understood why non-biological custodians delude themselves into thinking that they're actual parents, and have always found the term parent very offensive. I prefer to ground myself in reality and be known as a Guardian.'

Actually, that's more or less exactly what she said (loudly and repeatedly) in the other thread and elsewhere. She also basically said the entire practice of adoption is an abomination. Perhaps she didn't say it in Skald's thread, but I guarantee she's angling to. She's just itching for someone to say, "Gee, that's an unusual POV! What makes you say that?"

Is it possible that all she meant was that she considers it offensive in her specific case, i.e., since she is in fact the boy's sister, it sounds weird to call her his mother?

Nope.

Yeah, this one is all about context. You have to read the other thread to understand the vexation. Sort of like how many of Cesario's posts would have seemed harmless if you didn't know who he was.

Exactly. I saw this and thought, jesusgod, she's another Cesario.

[Captain Amazing]

What's so wrong about being against adoption?

[Ogre]

What's so wrong with kicking the shit out of puppies?

[otternell]

This thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=546471&highlight=abortion) from Great Debates had some ZPG "zingers".

[Hal Briston]

Here's a hint: When someone's username indicates that they're a one-trick pony, that's a pretty good indicator that it's safe to ignore them.

Or (I find this the more fun approach) get a good chuckle out of their nuttery.

[Drain Bead]

Here's a hint: When someone's username indicates that they're a one-trick pony, that's a pretty good indicator that it's safe to ignore them.

Or (I find this the more fun approach) get a good chuckle out of their nuttery.

I dunno about that. For every ZPG Zealot, there's a FoieGrasIsEvil.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Here's a hint: When someone's username indicates that they're a one-trick pony, that's a pretty good indicator that it's safe to ignore them.

Or (I find this the more fun approach) get a good chuckle out of their nuttery.

But what if the person is a one-trick pony but his or her or its name doesn't indicate such, like mine?

[Captain Amazing]

What's so wrong with kicking the shit out of puppies?

It's a good way to stub your toe. But there are a lot more people opposed to adoption than who support kicking puppies.

[Trepa Mayfield]

It's a good way to stub your toe. But there are a lot more people opposed to adoption than who support kicking puppies.

Doesn't make them right.

[Sarahfeena]

Doesn't make them right.

And it's not even the point of the thread. You can be against adoption and not go around randomly insulting adoptive parents and adopted people.

[Ogre]

I'm a little perplexed as to why someone would be "against" adoption. Are there good reasons to be dead set against the entire practice, or is this mere scroogery?

[Skald the Rhymer]

I'm a little perplexed as to why someone would be "against" adoption. Are there good reasons to be dead set against the entire practice, or is this mere scroogery?

For thyself thou must judge whether those who oppose adoption are insightful visionaries or miserable fuckwits. Mayhap these links will be of aid.

http://www.antiadoption.org/
http://antiadoption.blogspot.com/
http://courtingdestiny.com/why-i-dont-write-much-about-being-adopted/

[Dangerosa]

Even if you oppose adoption, its inappropriate to threadshit in Skald's thread.

[Captain Amazing]

It depends what you consider "good reasons". The reasons are cultural, usually.

[olivesmarch4th]

This thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=546471&highlight=abortion) from Great Debates had some ZPG "zingers".

Holy shit.

If I were sitting on jury and the case before me was one in which a man was accused of infanticide, but made it clear he never wanted a child and had asked the woman to have an abortion and she refused and was demanding child support, I would vote not guilty. Personally, I think men should have a legal option to opt out of paternity within 4-6 weeks (roughly the best window a woman has for an abortion) of being informed of a pregnancy. If he chooses to opt out he loses all legal rights and responsibilities to the possible child.

Holy shit.

There is a level that reaches beyond annoyance. There are certain instances, a prolonged hostage situation in an enclosed space, being one of them where the options could be smother the crying the baby or risk going insane. Smother the crying baby or have it betray you to the enemy is another.

If the tot's screaming and crying were damaging your mental health, you would probably have a good case that it was necessary throttle the tot.

...

[Dallas Jones]

ZPG Zealot is a one trick pony, apparently so filled with self-loathing and hatred of family that she will try to dominate and derail any thread that attempts to discuss family structure related issues.

Zero Population Growth Zealot hates children, family, parents, and will take a steaming crap in your thread if you try to talk about them. Family structure is slavery and ownership to her.

There are several posters on the SDMB with pet hot-button issues that no one is allowed to discuss without the point of the OP being lost in the volume of noise. Whenever any discussion begins about those issues, they will swoop in and attempt to dominate the thread until the discussion ends.

You have probably seen this for yourself. Almost like a denial of service attack.

Der Trihs will denounce religion in threads discussing faith until there is no point in continuing to follow the thread.

There can be no talk about global warming that will not be drowned out by a rising flood of cites and posts by GIGObuster.

And again, currently FinnAgain is doing the same thing, once again, in a thread that has a hint of critisism of Israel.

These aren't the only examples, and I am not attacking these posters for their behavior. But sometimes it would be nice to see these issues talked about without their sage input. Once they start in, the topic has been effectively threadshitted out of relevance. This is both amusing and disappointing, because if you read here often you can see it coming a mile away.

ZPG Zealot has issues, regarding her personal family history and cannot tolerate anyone who does not see family structure as some form of slavery. It's just more of the same hot-topic, one issue thread derailment that is normal here.

Just step away from the thread, put a big DO NOT POST post-it on your computer screen, something, and let the discussion continue. Yes, we know your feelings in the matter. We don't understand but we have read your viewpoint several times before.

Find something else to do and let the discussion of the OP continue.

[needscoffee]

I was wondering when she was going to come out from under her rock. I guess "Non-biological parents: please share your stories" was pretty much guaranteed to do the trick.


I've always found the term parent very offensive and perfer to be known as a Guardian.
I don't actually find this to be insulting (speaking as an adoptive parent, let alone any kind of parent). She's just stating that the relationship of parent has been irrevocably ruined for her, and so that's how she sees the term. If my parents were Joan Crawford and Joel Steinberg, I'd feel the same way. She's just so narrow-minded that she can't see outside of that.

[RickJay]

It's a good way to stub your toe. But there are a lot more people opposed to adoption than who support kicking puppies.
Who takes time to count while pile of assholes is tallest?

[ZPG Zealot]

I find it extremely insulting, not to mention stupid beyond the usual limits, that you seem to think that only qualifer for raising a child is calling yourself a parent. Parents are the most likely suspects whenever a child is abused or murdered. Millions of people throughout history have been the Guardians and Caregivers of children, how dare you claim that what we have done is somehow less because we don't care to have an illogical title applied to us. Vile is forcing women to be unpaid surrogates. Vile is egotists that spend thousand of dollars to take babies from their native culture there are children in their home cities, if not in their very families, who need financial help. And the ultimate in vile is probably telling a vulnerable child that the only way you will help them survive is if they deny their history and call you, mommy or daddy.

[The Hamster King]

Who takes time to count while pile of assholes is tallest?Now we know how many assholes it takes to fill the Albert Hall!

[Eyebrows 0f Doom]

Oh go away will you? You already started a multipage trainwreck thread to spout your crazy on this topic in GD a while back. Americans are not "stealing" Roma & other ethnicities of children from their homes. You're a loony.

[Marley23]

Pith off.

[ZPG Zealot]

What's so wrong about being against adoption?

Haven't you realized yet. Adoption is the most amazing holy thing on the Drop. Why it can be used to punish all those evil sinful women that have sex by forcing them to be broodmares for infertile people thus saving thousands that would have had to be paid to a surrogate mother. It allows wealthy people to rescue all the cute little babies from their poor parents who can't afford Nintendo thus giving them brand new pet children every year and freeing up all those poor ghetto people now that they don't have to find childcare to take slave wage jobs.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I find it extremely insulting, not to mention stupid beyond the usual limits, that you seem to think that only qualifer for raising a child is calling yourself a parent. Parents are the most likely suspects whenever a child is abused or murdered. Millions of people throughout history have been the Guardians and Caregivers of children, how dare you claim that what we have done is somehow less because we don't care to have an illogical title applied to us. Vile is forcing women to be unpaid surrogates. Vile is egotists that spend thousand of dollars to take babies from their native culture there are children in their home cities, if not in their very families, who need financial help. And the ultimate in vile is probably telling a vulnerable child that the only way you will help them survive is if they deny their history and call you, mommy or daddy.

You seem troubled, dear heart. I regret that my thread distressed you and hope you find peace.

[ZPG Zealot]

ZPG Zealot is a one trick pony, apparently so filled with self-loathing and hatred of family that she will try to dominate and derail any thread that attempts to discuss family structure related issues.

Zero Population Growth Zealot hates children, family, parents, and will take a steaming crap in your thread if you try to talk about them. Family structure is slavery and ownership to her.

There are several posters on the SDMB with pet hot-button issues that no one is allowed to discuss without the point of the OP being lost in the volume of noise. Whenever any discussion begins about those issues, they will swoop in and attempt to dominate the thread until the discussion ends.

You have probably seen this for yourself. Almost like a denial of service attack.

Der Trihs will denounce religion in threads discussing faith until there is no point in continuing to follow the thread.

There can be no talk about global warming that will not be drowned out by a rising flood of cites and posts by GIGObuster.

And again, currently FinnAgain is doing the same thing, once again, in a thread that has a hint of critisism of Israel.

These aren't the only examples, and I am not attacking these posters for their behavior. But sometimes it would be nice to see these issues talked about without their sage input. Once they start in, the topic has been effectively threadshitted out of relevance. This is both amusing and disappointing, because if you read here often you can see it coming a mile away.

ZPG Zealot has issues, regarding her personal family history and cannot tolerate anyone who does not see family structure as some form of slavery. It's just more of the same hot-topic, one issue thread derailment that is normal here.

Just step away from the thread, put a big DO NOT POST post-it on your computer screen, something, and let the discussion continue. Yes, we know your feelings in the matter. We don't understand but we have read your viewpoint several times before.

Find something else to do and let the discussion of the OP continue.

Not very observant are we. Actually, I love my family. It is one of the most important aspects of my life. However I find it very annoying when people seem to think that grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc., are somehow not family or at least not relevant to the family.

[Eyebrows 0f Doom]

LOL. Yup. Whackadoo.

[Contrapuntal]

Not very observant are we. Actually, I love my family. It is one of the most important aspects of my life. However I find it very annoying when people seem to think that grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc., are somehow not family or at least not relevant to the family.Can you point to examples of this?

[Contrapuntal]

I find it extremely insulting, not to mention stupid beyond the usual limits, that you seem to think that only qualifer for raising a child is calling yourself a parent.Can you point to where he has done this?


Parents are the most likely suspects whenever a child is abused or murdered. Millions of people throughout history have been the Guardians and Caregivers of children, how dare you claim that what we have done is somehow less because we don't care to have an illogical title applied to us.And this as well? Thanks awfully.

And the ultimate in vile is probably telling a vulnerable child that the only way you will help them survive is if they deny their history and call you, mommy or daddy.Who does this?

[olivesmarch4th]

However I find it very annoying when people seem to think that grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc., are somehow not family or at least not relevant to the family.
Oooh, my first opportunity to point out a strawman! Asking adoptive guardians to share their experiences is in no way a negation of any other family member.

[Trepa Mayfield]

It allows wealthy people to rescue all the cute little babies from their poor parents who can't afford Nintendo thus giving them brand new pet children every year and freeing up all those poor ghetto people now that they don't have to find childcare to take slave wage jobs.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that children up for adoption have relatives who want to take care of them.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Can you point to examples of this?

I expect it was my failure to call upon Mr. Drummond to be beaten to death for what he did to Arnold & Willis.

[olivesmarch4th]

Nobody has said anything close to what you are claiming was said. Not even close. If you have a wet carp available in your general vicinity, I'd suggest you hand it to someone you trust and ask them to smack you with it. I mean that in the nicest way possible.

If anything, Skald pitted you more for your overall history than your current behavior in that thread. I think he is generally just skeeved out by the things you post overall. And considering I just read a fucking thread where you defended a person's right to murder their child, I can't blame him. I mean I have seen some shit on these boards, but child murder? Really?

[Gfactor]

I find it extremely insulting, not to mention stupid beyond the usual limits, that you seem to think that only qualifer for raising a child is calling yourself a parent. Parents are the most likely suspects whenever a child is abused or murdered. Millions of people throughout history have been the Guardians and Caregivers of children, how dare you claim that what we have done is somehow less because we don't care to have an illogical title applied to us. Vile is forcing women to be unpaid surrogates. Vile is egotists that spend thousand of dollars to take babies from their native culture there are children in their home cities, if not in their very families, who need financial help. And the ultimate in vile is probably telling a vulnerable child that the only way you will help them survive is if they deny their history and call you, mommy or daddy.

Merged ZPG Zealot's thread, titled "a pithy message for Skald the Rhymer" into this one.

Gfactor
Pit Moderator

[Trepa Mayfield]

Parents are the most likely suspects whenever a child is abused or murdered.

No they aren't. The caretakers, caregivers, guardians (whatever you wanna call 'em) are.

[Captain Amazing]

Oh go away will you? You already started a multipage trainwreck thread to spout your crazy on this topic in GD a while back. Americans are not "stealing" Roma & other ethnicities of children from their homes. You're a loony.

I don't know if it's done in America, but there's a long tradition in various European countries of forcibly taking Roma children from their parents. From "Rights Denied: The Roma of Hungary"

After defeating and expelling the Ottoman Turks, the Hapsburg monarchy initiated an aggressive assimilation campaign. This was based on a mixture of rewards, such as residency and trade permits, and punishments, notably the prohibition of the itinerant lifestyle (1761 edict of Maria-Theresa), a ban of the use of Roma names (1761) and the Romany language (by Joseph II in 1783), and forced adoptions of Roma children by non-Roma families.

From this European Roma Rights Centre Report (http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=2290)

International Adoption

Patterns of assimilation and paternalism have, in more recent times, shifted. Two examples are illustrative of this. The first arose in Romania following the Ceausescu regime in the form of international adoption. Here, international humanitarian rhetoric, women’s rights, and the rights of the child intertwine to address what has been referred to as the “baby trade”. 6 Through the 1990s, the growth in international adoption notably and dispropo6rtionately impacted on Romani children. What has been observed is the following:

Given that prejudice against the Gypsies in Romania is unlikely to be eliminated in the near future, adoption was thought to provide a humanitarian road out for some of these children, whose chances for productive lives would otherwise be slim. Many Romanians viewed the exodus of adopted Gypsy children as a legitimate means to rid the country of them at the expense of foreigners; there are others who resented the squandering of Western altruism and resources on Gypsies. 7

What emerged as problematic were private, illegitimate adoptions that structured a system that situated the Romani within a power hierarchy. Foreigners indirectly became the privileged and Romani peoples (and Romani women, in particular), the victimised. . . .

Between the years 1990 to 1996, legal documentation requirements revealed that the implementation of formalised laws resulted in the forced removal of newborn children from Romani parent(s) in Italy. The requirements established that a mother, father or a relative of the father must submit identity documents for a newborn within 10 days of birth. In cases where there was a failure to comply, the Court of Minors would then inform the parent(s) that failure to produce the appropriate documents would result in the child being taken and possibly put up for adoption. Upon request of the relatives, the deadline would then be extended for a period of three months. 9 For Romani families, however, this process often proved to be difficult, if not impossible. For example, two fairly common scenarios have been reported. The first relates to the Romani custom of marrying through traditional rites and common law marriages not recognised by the Italian State.. . .

This situation instigated and perpetuated a situation where “[s]ocial workers and juvenile courts consider it their duty to take Romani children away from their parents and entrust them to Italian families -- often as a prelude to adoption.

Gratton Puxon's "Roma: Europe's Gypsies" talks about forced seizure and adoption of Roma children in Italy and Switzerland in the '80s.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I find it extremely insulting, not to mention stupid beyond the usual limits, that you seem to think that only qualifer for raising a child is calling yourself a parent. Parents are the most likely suspects whenever a child is abused or murdered. Millions of people throughout history have been the Guardians and Caregivers of children, how dare you claim that what we have done is somehow less because we don't care to have an illogical title applied to us. Vile is forcing women to be unpaid surrogates. Vile is egotists that spend thousand of dollars to take babies from their native culture there are children in their home cities, if not in their very families, who need financial help. And the ultimate in vile is probably telling a vulnerable child that the only way you will help them survive is if they deny their history and call you, mommy or daddy.

My brother and I were adopted as infants by a great Mom and Dad. They are my Mom and Dad, the only ones we have ever known. I fail to see why you would have an issue with someone like me that calls them that, especially when...they are.

Biology is farther down the list of calling a parent a good father or mother than is caring, love, nurturing and support.

Do you not agree?

[Malacandra]

a pithy message for Skald the Rhymer.

That'th a nathty lithp you have there.

[Andy L]

I find it extremely insulting, not to mention stupid beyond the usual limits, that you seem to think that only qualifer for raising a child is calling yourself a parent. Parents are the most likely suspects whenever a child is abused or murdered. Millions of people throughout history have been the Guardians and Caregivers of children, how dare you claim that what we have done is somehow less because we don't care to have an illogical title applied to us. Vile is forcing women to be unpaid surrogates. Vile is egotists that spend thousand of dollars to take babies from their native culture there are children in their home cities, if not in their very families, who need financial help. And the ultimate in vile is probably telling a vulnerable child that the only way you will help them survive is if they deny their history and call you, mommy or daddy.

I'm confused by your nonsense. You took on a parental role for your younger brother, which is a good thing. The practice you received will no doubt help you should you ever become a parent again (hopefully under much better circumstances). Nothing you did was vile, so far as I know, in spite of the fact that you were in the parental role. Why do you assume that other people who do what you did are vile?

[needscoffee]

Of course, guardians have never committed abusive acts.

[billfish678]

Here's a hint: When someone's username indicates that they're a one-trick pony, that's a pretty good indicator that it's safe to ignore them.

Or (I find this the more fun approach) get a good chuckle out of their nuttery.

Thats why I put big numbers in my name. I figure I am good for a couple years at least.

[Eyebrows 0f Doom]

I don't know if it's done in America, but there's a long tradition in various European countries of forcibly taking Roma children from their parents. From "Rights Denied: The Roma of Hungary"


I didn't say it never happened in the past, but our resident whacko is under the delusion that all adoptions nowadays are by Americans who sneak into villages and snatch kids from their mother's fingers, like some bizarre child catcher out of Dickens or something like that.

[Rand Rover]

ZPG Zealot is a one trick pony, apparently so filled with self-loathing and hatred of family that she will try to dominate and derail any thread that attempts to discuss family structure related issues.

Zero Population Growth Zealot hates children, family, parents, and will take a steaming crap in your thread if you try to talk about them. Family structure is slavery and ownership to her.

There are several posters on the SDMB with pet hot-button issues that no one is allowed to discuss without the point of the OP being lost in the volume of noise. Whenever any discussion begins about those issues, they will swoop in and attempt to dominate the thread until the discussion ends.

You have probably seen this for yourself. Almost like a denial of service attack.

Der Trihs will denounce religion in threads discussing faith until there is no point in continuing to follow the thread.

There can be no talk about global warming that will not be drowned out by a rising flood of cites and posts by GIGObuster.

And again, currently FinnAgain is doing the same thing, once again, in a thread that has a hint of critisism of Israel.

These aren't the only examples, and I am not attacking these posters for their behavior. But sometimes it would be nice to see these issues talked about without their sage input. Once they start in, the topic has been effectively threadshitted out of relevance. This is both amusing and disappointing, because if you read here often you can see it coming a mile away.

ZPG Zealot has issues, regarding her personal family history and cannot tolerate anyone who does not see family structure as some form of slavery. It's just more of the same hot-topic, one issue thread derailment that is normal here.

Just step away from the thread, put a big DO NOT POST post-it on your computer screen, something, and let the discussion continue. Yes, we know your feelings in the matter. We don't understand but we have read your viewpoint several times before.

Find something else to do and let the discussion of the OP continue.

Hi :)

Look, some people (including me) have issues they are interested in, and they post in threads about those issues. Personally, I don't think I hijack threads. If people respond to me, I'll respond to them. Otherwise, I've stated my opinion or made my contribution and I'm done. I don't think I've done anything bad if people want to engage me in a conversation and the thread takes a turn to discuss only that conversation.

[SteveG1]

I find it extremely insulting, not to mention stupid beyond the usual limits, that you seem to think that only qualifer for raising a child is calling yourself a parent. Parents are the most likely suspects whenever a child is abused or murdered. Millions of people throughout history have been the Guardians and Caregivers of children, how dare you claim that what we have done is somehow less because we don't care to have an illogical title applied to us. Vile is forcing women to be unpaid surrogates. Vile is egotists that spend thousand of dollars to take babies from their native culture there are children in their home cities, if not in their very families, who need financial help. And the ultimate in vile is probably telling a vulnerable child that the only way you will help them survive is if they deny their history and call you, mommy or daddy.

I was adopted, at about the age of 1 year (give or take). I was not abused, and I was not murdered. I look at my adoptive parents as my parents. I called them Mom and Dad. They raised me, taught me right from wrong, took care of me when I got sick, and put up with my bullshit. They acted like my parents, and so they were my parents. I have no idea who, or where my "breeders" are. I don't care - I know who my parents were.

[Polycarp]

My brother and I were adopted as infants by a great Mom and Dad. They are my Mom and Dad, the only ones we have ever known. I fail to see why you would have an issue with someone like me that calls them that, especially when...they are.

Biology is farther down the list of calling a parent a good father or mother than is caring, love, nurturing and support.

Do you not agree?

I had this fact brought home to me forcefully by a five-year-old. His sperm donor "C"was a handsome, personable crackhead who turned his mother's head, leading to his conception. One of "my boys" -- the neighbor kids we took in when homeless in their teens -- "M", met and fell in love with her while she was carrying the kid, and was the only nurturing father the boy ever knew -- though they chose to be honest with him about his parentage from the start. When I accidentally called "C" his daddy, he looked at me with the patented "Grownups can be SO stupid" expression only little kids can pull off, and said, "No, C's my [scornfully] father." Pointing to "M", he said with pride, "He's my daddy."

I learned my lesson about what really matters to a kid then and there.

[Polycarp]

Thats why I put big numbers in my name. I figure I am good for a couple years at least.

Don't be silly; we all know you're all about billfish (http://artfiles.art.com/5/p/LRG/8/850/PDTY000Z/billfish-of-the-world.jpg) :D

[cuberdon]

I was adopted, at about the age of 1 year (give or take). I was not abused, and I was not murdered. I look at my adoptive parents as my parents. I called them Mom and Dad. They raised me, taught me right from wrong, took care of me when I got sick, and put up with my bullshit. They acted like my parents, and so they were my parents. I have no idea who, or where my "breeders" are. I don't care - I know who my parents were.

It's great that has been your experience. A lot of posters, adoptive parents and children alike, have shared similar in the thread referenced by the OP. Unfortunately it does not seem to have made a dent in Z's worldview.

[Hal Briston]

I was not murdered.Woah, woah...back up there a minute. Cite?

[SteveG1]

Woah, woah...back up there a minute. Cite?

I'm back!


braaaaaaiiiiiinnnnnnns

[kaylasdad99]

ZPG Zealot is a one trick pony, apparently so filled with self-loathing and hatred of family that she will try to dominate and derail any thread that attempts to discuss family structure related issues.

Zero Population Growth Zealot hates children, family, parents, and will take a steaming crap in your thread if you try to talk about them. Family structure is slavery and ownership to her.

There are several posters on the SDMB with pet hot-button issues that no one is allowed to discuss without the point of the OP being lost in the volume of noise. Whenever any discussion begins about those issues, they will swoop in and attempt to dominate the thread until the discussion ends.

You have probably seen this for yourself. Almost like a denial of service attack.

Der Trihs will denounce religion in threads discussing faith until there is no point in continuing to follow the thread.

There can be no talk about global warming that will not be drowned out by a rising flood of cites and posts by GIGObuster.

And again, currently FinnAgain is doing the same thing, once again, in a thread that has a hint of critisism of Israel.Pffft. Amateurs, needing excuses.

Fucking Designated Hitter rule is ruining baseball. COMPLETELY EXCISING THE POINT OF THE GAME, I TELLS YA!

:D :p

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I had this fact brought home to me forcefully by a five-year-old. His sperm donor "C"was a handsome, personable crackhead who turned his mother's head, leading to his conception. One of "my boys" -- the neighbor kids we took in when homeless in their teens -- "M", met and fell in love with her while she was carrying the kid, and was the only nurturing father the boy ever knew -- though they chose to be honest with him about his parentage from the start. When I accidentally called "C" his daddy, he looked at me with the patented "Grownups can be SO stupid" expression only little kids can pull off, and said, "No, C's my [scornfully] father." Pointing to "M", he said with pride, "He's my daddy."

I learned my lesson about what really matters to a kid then and there.

That's awesome and makes me want to...cry a little.

[Marley23]

People, these are some really nice examples - and some of them should go in Skald the Rhymer started that lead to this one (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=555983) - but the GD thread shows there is no reasoning with ZPG Zealot on this topic. It's not worth your time.

[Enderw24]

Skald, ZPG Zealot has a point. The world doesn't move to the beat of just one drum. And what might be right for you, may not be right for some.

[BigT]

Skald, ZPG Zealot has a point. The world doesn't move to the beat of just one drum. And what might be right for you, may not be right for some.

So the fuck what? It's one thing to have an opinion, and to decide to talk about it. It's another thing to come to a thread asking for adopted parent's stories and tell them that they don't deserve to be called parents.

And, no, it can't be just to have responded on topic, as she doesn't consider herself a parent, so she had absolutely no justification for posting in that thread.

I hate that we define a troll as having to not believe what they say. Because ZPGZ attempted to hijack that thread specifically to get a rise out of the people disagrees with, or rather, based on her posting style, actively hates. Outside the pit, that should be considered trolling, and at the very least be a warnable offense.

[WarmNPrickly]

It sure takes different strokes, that's for sure.

[choie]

Skald, ZPG Zealot has a point. The world doesn't move to the beat of just one drum. And what might be right for you, may not be right for some.

So the fuck what?

So that whooshing sound is so far over your head, it's like you're Gary Coleman or something. ;)

Enderw24 is quoting the Different Strokes song.

[KarlGauss]

Haven't you realized yet. Adoption is the most amazing holy thing on the Drop. Why it can be used to punish all those evil sinful women that have sex by forcing them to be broodmares for infertile people thus saving thousands that would have had to be paid to a surrogate mother. It allows wealthy people to rescue all the cute little babies from their poor parents who can't afford Nintendo thus giving them brand new pet children every year and freeing up all those poor ghetto people now that they don't have to find childcare to take slave wage jobs.For all those who weren't familiar with her: Do you now understand?

[BunnyTVS]

For all those who weren't familiar with her: Do you now understand?

Kinda makes you glad she's NOT a parent :D

[muldoonthief]

And for anyone else unfamiliar with ZPG's other trick, she's a self described fortune teller (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=528597), and actually makes money from it. So at best she's deluded and ignorant, at worst (and far more likely) she's a thief who steals from people dumb enough to believe in fortune tellers.

[furt]

Kinda makes you glad she's NOT a parent :DLet's just say there are some genes not worth passing on.

[Sarahfeena]

ZPG Zealot's philosophy is a mystery to me. I understand that due to different cultures and experiences, people might have different ideas about the world than I do. That's perfectly fair. But hers is so convoluted and contradictory that it makes no sense at all.

For instance, to her, blood relations are the only important relations, and people not related by blood but rather through legal ties are not to be considered relatives at all. As an example, most of us, I think, would call the person married to our parent's sibling "aunt" or "uncle." That is, my dad's sister and her husband are my "aunt and uncle," and I call them "Aunt Sue" and "Uncle Bob." She would consider the spouse NOT a relation of hers, and refer to that person as her "Aunt's Husband," always making it clear when the relation is a legal one and not a blood one.

OK, that all seems a little odd to me, but whatever floats her boat. It's her family, not mine. But the thing that doesn't jibe with it is that she also is very adamant on her view that there exists a "cult of the child" in this country, and that people value babies more than they do grown adults. But wouldn't it make sense, if blood was of the highest value, that it would be right to value your own baby over the life of a random adult?

I wish very much that she would explain how that is supposed to be consistent in any way.

[Shodan]

Pffft. Amateurs, needing excuses.

Fucking Designated Hitter rule is ruining baseball. COMPLETELY EXCISING THE POINT OF THE GAME, I TELLS YA!

:D :pWhen was that rule adopted?

Regards,
Shodan

[Slypork]

A couple things I should have mentioned to our esteemed ZPG regarding the “evils” of adoption and “stealing” babies.

1. The birth mother had 4, count them, 4 children taken away from her and adopted by non-family members before she got pregnant with our daughter. Why were they taken? Because she and her first two children moved back in with the step-father that had sexually abused her as a kid. He turned his attentions on her children and she did nothing to stop it. Then when she had the next two kids, she abandoned them at a friend’s house and ran off with a man (not her husband). After she had our daughter she told a nurse at the clinic where she picked up her meds that she kept imagining putting bleach in the baby’s bottle.

She has borderline personality disorder and is emotionally about 12 years old. She loves the attention she gets when she is pregnant and the way people treat her with a baby but doesn’t know how to parent. She was late for a parental visitation because she stopped to give a guy a blowjob for $5. As part of the psych evaluations she had to undergo for her court ordered parenting classes the psychiatrist said she wasn’t capable of caring for a houseplant (those are the exact words). Did the state “steal” the children from a caring, nurturing environment or did they rescue them from years of neglect, abuse, harm and potential injury?

By the way, the birth mother has since gone on to have another child and skipped out of Illinois so the baby couldn’t be taken from her. She convinced the new state that she could take care of the baby because she now has a support structure. She is living with her 70 year old disabled mother (the abusive step-father is dead, thank god) and they are both receiving Social Security disability checks, food stamps and their church drives them to medical visits. We are still in touch with her and saw pictures of the kid. He’s always a mess, clothes are ripped and dirty, the house looks like something from Hoarders. Plus, in every picture, he has bruises. And there’s not a fucking thing I can do about it.

2. When I was young and stupid, I got a girl pregnant. She wanted nothing to do with me but wanted to keep the baby. After he was born, I sent money every payday until my letters started getting returned unopened. Eventually she contacted me to say that she was getting married and he wanted to adopt the boy. She asked me to sign away my parental rights.

I had only seen a single picture of the boy and had no involvement in his life. I knew that she had found someone who loved her and loved this child who was not biologically his but wanted to be part of his life forever. I signed away my rights.

Was it cruel and heartless for this man to want to raise a stranger’s baby? Was he doing this for some nefarious reason? Not on your life. A man that I never met loved a woman that I once loved and is raising the child that I am the father of. I am not his dad, just the father, nothing more than a sperm donor.

I have never attempted to make contact with him although I did find a picture of him through Facebook. He does sort of look like me and appears to be happy and successful.

ZPG, I truly feel bad for you that you have such a jaded and distorted view of what love is. To open your heart to someone with no genetic connection and want to graft them into your life is amazing. I hope that someday you find some non-family member who loves you for who you are and lets you in. Maybe you will do the same to them.

[kaylasdad99]

I saw what you did there, Shodan.

[ZPG Zealot]

I'm confused by your nonsense. You took on a parental role for your younger brother, which is a good thing. The practice you received will no doubt help you should you ever become a parent again (hopefully under much better circumstances). Nothing you did was vile, so far as I know, in spite of the fact that you were in the parental role. Why do you assume that other people who do what you did are vile?

Andy, the point is I WAS NOT HIS PARENT. I spent a lot of time first explaining; then yelling this point at various teachers and school guidance counselors who could not understand the principle that family means anything other than a mother and father. I was his older sister (actually technically half-sister, we did not have the same mother) and I became his Guardian which is a perfectly noble title for my role.

[ZPG Zealot]

A couple things I should have mentioned to our esteemed ZPG regarding the “evils” of adoption and “stealing” babies.

1. The birth mother had 4, count them, 4 children taken away from her and adopted by non-family members before she got pregnant with our daughter. Why were they taken? Because she and her first two children moved back in with the step-father that had sexually abused her as a kid. He turned his attentions on her children and she did nothing to stop it. Then when she had the next two kids, she abandoned them at a friend’s house and ran off with a man (not her husband). After she had our daughter she told a nurse at the clinic where she picked up her meds that she kept imagining putting bleach in the baby’s bottle.

She has borderline personality disorder and is emotionally about 12 years old. She loves the attention she gets when she is pregnant and the way people treat her with a baby but doesn’t know how to parent. She was late for a parental visitation because she stopped to give a guy a blowjob for $5. As part of the psych evaluations she had to undergo for her court ordered parenting classes the psychiatrist said she wasn’t capable of caring for a houseplant (those are the exact words). Did the state “steal” the children from a caring, nurturing environment or did they rescue them from years of neglect, abuse, harm and potential injury?

By the way, the birth mother has since gone on to have another child and skipped out of Illinois so the baby couldn’t be taken from her. She convinced the new state that she could take care of the baby because she now has a support structure. She is living with her 70 year old disabled mother (the abusive step-father is dead, thank god) and they are both receiving Social Security disability checks, food stamps and their church drives them to medical visits. We are still in touch with her and saw pictures of the kid. He’s always a mess, clothes are ripped and dirty, the house looks like something from Hoarders. Plus, in every picture, he has bruises. And there’s not a fucking thing I can do about it.

2. When I was young and stupid, I got a girl pregnant. She wanted nothing to do with me but wanted to keep the baby. After he was born, I sent money every payday until my letters started getting returned unopened. Eventually she contacted me to say that she was getting married and he wanted to adopt the boy. She asked me to sign away my parental rights.

I had only seen a single picture of the boy and had no involvement in his life. I knew that she had found someone who loved her and loved this child who was not biologically his but wanted to be part of his life forever. I signed away my rights.

Was it cruel and heartless for this man to want to raise a stranger’s baby? Was he doing this for some nefarious reason? Not on your life. A man that I never met loved a woman that I once loved and is raising the child that I am the father of. I am not his dad, just the father, nothing more than a sperm donor.

I have never attempted to make contact with him although I did find a picture of him through Facebook. He does sort of look like me and appears to be happy and successful.

ZPG, I truly feel bad for you that you have such a jaded and distorted view of what love is. To open your heart to someone with no genetic connection and want to graft them into your life is amazing. I hope that someday you find some non-family member who loves you for who you are and lets you in. Maybe you will do the same to them.

Actually, I think the situations you have described make a good case that some people should be sterilized. And in the first case there is also the argument that the trainwreck of the mother's life could have been prevented by proper intervention into her family life while she was a child. Or even now. There is no reason some social agencies shouldn't be trying harder to help her overcome her problems rather than just trying to harvst babies from her.

[Sarahfeena]

Andy, the point is I WAS NOT HIS PARENT. I spent a lot of time first explaining; then yelling this point at various teachers and school guidance counselors who could not understand the principle that family means anything other than a mother and father. I was his older sister (actually technically half-sister, we did not have the same mother) and I became his Guardian which is a perfectly noble title for my role.

People use the verb "to parent" differently from the way you use it. They don't mean any offense by it, it's merely a way to describe what your role was in the kids' life.

[Contrapuntal]

ZPG Zealot,

I've asked you several questions. Are you capable of answering them, or are you just blowing smoke out of your ass?

[CircleofWillis]

ZPG, are you my mom? I'm gonna ask you, okay? And you say yes, okay? ZPG, are you my mom?

[Malleus, Incus, Stapes!]

Actually, I think the situations you have described make a good case that some people should be sterilized. And in the first case there is also the argument that the trainwreck of the mother's life could have been prevented by proper intervention into her family life while she was a child. Or even now. There is no reason some social agencies shouldn't be trying harder to help her overcome her problems rather than just trying to harvst babies from her.

Erm, ZPG... perhaps proper intervention could have helped when she was a child. In some other timeline maybe she's a perfectly good mother. But in this world, she did not get that intervention. Right NOW she is a mess who can't take care of a houseplant. Like wise, she wasn't sterilized. She already had the kids. There probably isn't much even a determined social worker could do to make her fit to be a mother. Unless you've got a time machine in your garage, you have to work with the situation as it is NOW.

[Enderw24]

People use the verb "to parent" differently from the way you use it. They don't mean any offense by it, it's merely a way to describe what your role was in the kids' life.

Exactly. It's like the phrase "He labored in the field." He may not be a laborer, though. If you're in a union doing a union job there are specific classifications for who is a laborer and who might be, say, a carpenter or an electrician or a welder. You do not want to get those classifications mixed up on any official form. They're completely separate.
Yet it's perfectly acceptable to say "He labored in the field." Because "labored" and "laborer" are two separate words with two distinct meanings.

Likewise, being a "parent" and "parenting" are two separate words with two distinct meanings.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Skald, ZPG Zealot has a point. The world doesn't move to the beat of just one drum. And what might be right for you, may not be right for some.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am out of death traps.

[ZPG Zealot]

Erm, ZPG... perhaps proper intervention could have helped when she was a child. In some other timeline maybe she's a perfectly good mother. But in this world, she did not get that intervention. Right NOW she is a mess who can't take care of a houseplant. Like wise, she wasn't sterilized. She already had the kids. There probably isn't much even a determined social worker could do to make her fit to be a mother. Unless you've got a time machine in your garage, you have to work with the situation as it is NOW.

And the situation NOW seems to be people are quite comfortable using this woman to make babies for adoption rather than give her the extensive, inpatient, and yeah, probably expensive mental health care she needs to break this cycle. You know, adopters are always quick to point out how "unselfishly" they have spent money to obtain babies, but the truth is if they were actually concerned about these women and their children they would demand the government provide the proper safety net for vulnerable people and donate some of their own cash and time to the effort.

[Sarahfeena]

And the situation NOW seems to be people are quite comfortable using this woman to make babies for adoption rather than give her the extensive, inpatient, and yeah, probably expensive mental health care she needs to break this cycle. You know, adopters are always quick to point out how "unselfishly" they have spent money to obtain babies, They do?

but the truth is if they were actually concerned about these women and their children they would demand the government provide the proper safety net for vulnerable people and donate some of their own cash and time to the effort.They do!

[Vinyl Turnip]

Fucking Designated Hitter rule is ruining baseball.

I momentarily read this as "Hitler," and wondered if my ignorance of sports ran even deeper than I thought...

[ZPG Zealot]

Dear Contrapuntal, any cop will tell you the first question in a child murder is "Where were the parents and what were they doing?" A quick article to peruse http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/9/1578, Friedman lists parents as the responsible party in 61% of all murders of children under the age of 5. The whole premise of modern adoption is based on the idea of unspoken, but it's definitely there of not giving a damn about children unless some individual gets to claim those children as their children, their "property". Recently I had a woman tell me how she made the unselfish sacrifice of spending tens of thousands of dollars to adopt a baby from the former Yugoslavia. I have lived in former Yugoslavia. I know what conditions are like there. In the hands of an honest charity, and there are some very good , honest charities working there that money would have supported dozens if not a hundred children. Of course, Mrs. Infertile wouldn't get a baby to pretend that her uterus wasn't a dried up sack.

[Asimovian]

Recently I had a woman tell me how she made the unselfish sacrifice of spending tens of thousands of dollars to adopt a baby from the former Yugoslavia...Of course, Mrs. Infertile wouldn't get a baby to pretend that her uterus wasn't a dried up sack.I know this is useless, but I have not had the privilege of attempting reason with you.

Based on your quoted statement, are you suggesting that most people who care for adopted children lie and pretend as if they'd had those children by natural birth?

[Contrapuntal]

Dear Contrapuntal, any cop will tell you the first question in a child murder is "Where were the parents and what were they doing?" A quick article to peruse http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/9/1578, Friedman lists parents as the responsible party in 61% of all murders of children under the age of 5. The whole premise of modern adoption is based on the idea of unspoken, but it's definitely there of not giving a damn about children unless some individual gets to claim those children as their children, their "property". Recently I had a woman tell me how she made the unselfish sacrifice of spending tens of thousands of dollars to adopt a baby from the former Yugoslavia. I have lived in former Yugoslavia. I know what conditions are like there. In the hands of an honest charity, and there are some very good , honest charities working there that money would have supported dozens if not a hundred children. Of course, Mrs. Infertile wouldn't get a baby to pretend that her uterus wasn't a dried up sack.These are the questions I asked :

Where has Skald claimed that "that only qualif[i]er for raising a child is calling yourself a parent."?

Where has he claimed that "what we (caregivers) have done is somehow less because we don't care to have an illogical title applied to us."?

Who tells a vulnerable child that "the only way you will help them survive is if they deny their history and call you, mommy or daddy."?

And which of these questions did your post which I just quoted answer?

[ZPG Zealot]

I know this is useless, but I have not had the privilege of attempting reason with you.

Based on your quoted statement, are you suggesting that most people who care for adopted children lie and pretend as if they'd had those children by natural birth?

I've noticed enough that do. I use to think it was merely pathetic. Now it seems rather evil.

[needscoffee]

There is no attempting rational argument with ZPGZ. She has stated in other threads that orphans should be raised in orphanages, not be adopted into families. And in some cases, would be better off dead than be adopted. And that in any family with adopted children, she and all others should be apprised of this so that she can judge why the kids are not up to par; otherwise the adoptive parents are living a lie to the world. And all adoptive parents are selfish baby snatchers. If you make a valid point, she will ignore it and go off on another poorly punctuated rant. She simply cannot fathom how any adoption can take place outside of snatching Roma babies.

[muldoonthief]

I know this is useless, but I have not had the privilege of attempting reason with you.

Based on your quoted statement, are you suggesting that most people who care for adopted children lie and pretend as if they'd had those children by natural birth?

I've noticed enough that do. I use to think it was merely pathetic. Now it seems rather evil.

Note of course that if you read the closed GD thread, you find thatZPG's definition of "pretending as if they'd had those children by natural birth" is "People who don't loudly and continuously inform the child and everyone they come in contact with that the child is adopted." Because you can't swim in the same pool as adopted children or you'll go to hell or something like that.

[billfish678]

. She simply cannot fathom how any adoption can take place outside of snatching Roma babies.

Bahh...

Everybody knows heirloom babies taste so much better.

[Enderw24]

Dear Contrapuntal, any cop will tell you the first question in a child murder is "Where were the parents and what were they doing?" A quick article to peruse http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/9/1578, Friedman lists parents as the responsible party in 61% of all murders of children under the age of 5.

Dear ZPG Zealot, any cop will tell you that the first question asked in a beastiality case is "where's the guy with a subscription to Cat Fancy and what was he doing?" A quick article to preuse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

[Duke]

Dear Contrapuntal, any cop will tell you the first question in a child murder is "Where were the parents and what were they doing?"

The first question cops ask when there's a murder of a married person is "Where is the spouse and what were they doing?" So, we should ban marriage, too dangerous.

The first question cops ask when there's a workplace homicide is "Who got fired recently and have they been seen in the building?" So, we should ban firing people, too dangerous.

[Dangerosa]

I don't know if it's done in America, but there's a long tradition in various European countries of forcibly taking Roma children from their parents. From "Rights Denied: The Roma of Hungary"



From this European Roma Rights Centre Report (http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=2290)



Gratton Puxon's "Roma: Europe's Gypsies" talks about forced seizure and adoption of Roma children in Italy and Switzerland in the '80s.

On the other hand, in Bulgaria the only children generally available for international adoption at the time we adopted were Roma, and they were allowed out of the country as infants rather than the much later age at which "ethnic Bulgarians" were released. It was explained to us that Roma children would never be adopted by ethnic Bulgarians.

[The Hamster King]

I momentarily read this as "Hitler," and wondered if my ignorance of sports ran even deeper than I thought...Me too! I love the idea of baseball having a Designated Hitler Rule. I might watch it if it did.

[The Hamster King]

Dear Contrapuntal, any cop will tell you the first question in a child murder is "Where were the parents and what were they doing?" Got it. Letting birth parents raise their own kids is dangerous. We should encourage adoption as much as possible so that responsible guardians will take care of kids instead. Thanks for the info!

[billfish678]

Me too! I love the idea of baseball having a Designated Hitler Rule. I might watch it if it did.

They teach it that way at baseball "camps".

[Rand Rover]

She was late for a parental visitation because she stopped to give a guy a blowjob for $5.
You'd be late too if you could double your net worth with just a few minutes work.

[billfish678]

You'd be late too if you could double your net worth with just a few minutes work.

So, Ross Perot and that thing about the economy and the "great sucking sound" was true?

[Vinyl Turnip]

Me too! I love the idea of baseball having a Designated Hitler Rule. I might watch it if it did.

The worst part of being Designated Hitler is wearing the shared, sweaty stick-on toothbrush moustache.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

I momentarily read this as "Hitler," and wondered if my ignorance of sports ran even deeper than I thought...

Heh. I read it that way until right now. Sheesh.

[Fenris]

For thyself thou must judge whether those who oppose adoption are insightful visionaries or miserable fuckwits. Mayhap these links will be of aid.

http://www.antiadoption.org/
http://antiadoption.blogspot.com/
http://courtingdestiny.com/why-i-dont-write-much-about-being-adopted/

...wait.

...th' fuck?! I read the first two sites and they seem to be missing the important part of the whole anti-abortion thing, namely: What the fuck could possibly be wrong with adoption?

Seriously....finish this sentence:

Without discussing individual problems like abusive adoptive parents, the primary thing(s) wrong with the principle of adoption are_____________________?

Because I don't get it. Also, what's the alternative? Orphanages?

[The Hamster King]

Because I don't get it. Also, what's the alternative? Orphanages?Time machines, apparently.

[billfish678]

Time machines, apparently.

Gotta do something about the Morlok famine ya know...

[SteveG1]

Me too! I love the idea of baseball having a Designated Hitler Rule. I might watch it if it did.
I would watch too.

Then we could say ...

Wait for it ...

"You know who else ruined baseball?" :D

[Skald the Rhymer]

Gotta do something about the Morlok famine ya know...

Someone--and I'm not saying it was me--worked a long time to arrange that famine and exterminate those filthy 'Loks. That someone does NOT appreciate you do-gooders screwing with his or her or its evil deeds. The genocide of the Morlocks is none of your business.

[billfish678]

"You know who else ruined baseball?" :D

George Will?

[SteveG1]

George Will?

Oh my word. Did he have a funny little Charlie Chaplin moustache too?

[Chimera]

Someone--and I'm not saying it was me--worked a long time to arrange that famine and exterminate those filthy 'Loks. That someone does NOT appreciate you do-gooders screwing with his or her or its evil deeds. The genocide of the Morlocks is none of your business.

I think we're working at cross purposes here. I was intending to ship the terminally stupid to that era in order to resolve a more pressing issue in the near future time line at the expense of the far future time line.

Now you're telling me they'll arrive to a world in which the Morlocks have been exterminated and the stupid will inherit the Earth? Shades of Hitchhiker's Guide!

:smack:

[Malleus, Incus, Stapes!]

I momentarily read this as "Hitler," and wondered if my ignorance of sports ran even deeper than I thought...

You too? I guess it must be the capital H.

[SteveG1]

Instead of the Star Spangled Banner, we could start every game with Springtime For Hitler, a floor show, Hitlers On Ice, and everything.

[Chimera]

Fools. Everyone knows Hitler is associated with golf, not baseball. Why else do you think golf involves bunkers?

[SteveG1]

Fools. Everyone knows Hitler is associated with golf, not baseball. Why else do you think golf involves bunkers?

[Johnny Carson] I did not know that [/Johnny Carson]

You are the winner. I salute you :D

[KarlGauss]

You are the winner. I salute you :D
How can he be the winner when everybody knows the Designated Hitler was Dönitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_D%C3%B6nitz#Hitler.27s_successor)?

[Trepa Mayfield]

Andy, the point is I WAS NOT HIS PARENT. I spent a lot of time first explaining; then yelling this point at various teachers and school guidance counselors who could not understand the principle that family means anything other than a mother and father. I was his older sister (actually technically half-sister, we did not have the same mother) and I became his Guardian which is a perfectly noble title for my role.

Let's all just pause for a moment, in sympathy for those teachers and guidance counselors. Can you imagine, trying to deal with that? I mean, we think we have it bad, and this is just over a message board.

[choie]

Let's all just pause for a moment, in sympathy for those teachers and guidance counselors. Can you imagine, trying to deal with that? I mean, we think we have it bad, and this is just over a message board.

She really does bring new meaning to the phrase in loco parentis.

[FriarTed]

But what if the person is a one-trick pony but his or her or its name doesn't indicate such, like mine?

Now Skald, you have at least four tricks....

1.) dealing with your family
2.) Lord of the Rings nitpickery
3.) insightful religious/spiritual debate
4.) world domination, of course.

[Rilchiam]

Yes, I would really like to know who declared ZPG stable enough to be anyone's guardian. And what her brother's life has been like.

[SteveG1]

How can he be the winner when everybody knows the Designated Hitler was Dönitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_D%C3%B6nitz#Hitler.27s_successor)?

But he got old. In his later years, he had to have a pinch Hitler bat for him.

[Heart of Dorkness]

She really does bring new meaning to the phrase in loco parentis.

I LOLed.

[Smeghead]

Yes, I would really like to know who declared ZPG stable enough to be anyone's guardian. And what her brother's life has been like.

Maybe it's the other way around. Maybe her brother turned her into the raging zealot she is... Think about that one for a while.

[Nametag]

She really does bring new meaning to the phrase in loco parentis.

Y'know, there is a brilliantly horrible Web site waiting to be born here. I'm seeing something like cakewrecks, only with more human suffering.

Won't someone adopt this title for a blog?

[pepperlandgirl]

I'm so confused. So ZPG Zealot hates adoption and also hates parents? Parents are disgusting, no-good creatures because they're abusive and also have been known to kill children. Adoption is terrible because adopters simply use women as baby-making machines to advance their horrible agenda of stealing babies and raising them in a House of Lies where they call themselves "parents."

Is that about the sum of it? Am I missing some nuance here?

[Sarahfeena]

I'm so confused. So ZPG Zealot hates adoption and also hates parents? Parents are disgusting, no-good creatures because they're abusive and also have been known to kill children. Adoption is terrible because adopters simply use women as baby-making machines to advance their horrible agenda of stealing babies and raising them in a House of Lies where they call themselves "parents."

Is that about the sum of it? Am I missing some nuance here?

I think you can dump it in one big bucket labeled "hates the world."

[Skald the Rhymer]

I think you can dump it in one big bucket labeled "hates the world."

But *I* hate the world too, as is also in the FAQ. Are you lumping me in with ZZ? :(

[Sarahfeena]

But *I* hate the world too, as is also in the FAQ. Are you lumping me in with ZZ? :(

Nah, Skald, that's ZPG's own special bucket.

[Slypork]

Y'know, there is a brilliantly horrible Web site waiting to be born here. I'm seeing something like cakewrecks, only with more human suffering.

Won't someone adopt this title for a blog?
AAAGGHHHH!!! You said the “a’” word!

[Nametag]

Yup. And I'd do it again! ;)

[BigT]

I'm so confused. So ZPG Zealot hates adoption and also hates parents? Parents are disgusting, no-good creatures because they're abusive and also have been known to kill children. Adoption is terrible because adopters simply use women as baby-making machines to advance their horrible agenda of stealing babies and raising them in a House of Lies where they call themselves "parents."

Is that about the sum of it? Am I missing some nuance here?

She thinks everyone should be raised by their sister, I think

[gravitycrash]

Congratulations ZPG. You have overtaken my previous personal #1 batshit, looney bird poster here on the Dope. That is no small accomplishment. Good job.

[Andy L]

Andy, the point is I WAS NOT HIS PARENT. I spent a lot of time first explaining; then yelling this point at various teachers and school guidance counselors who could not understand the principle that family means anything other than a mother and father. I was his older sister (actually technically half-sister, we did not have the same mother) and I became his Guardian which is a perfectly noble title for my role.

Yes, "guardian" is a perfectly respectable title for someone who is acting as a parent but does not choose to use that title. You acknowledged that you were acting as a parent by posting in a thread about "non-biological parents."