Ask the Freemason

[Winston Smith]

I was raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason on March 16, was previously passed to the degree of Fellow Craft on 2/16 and was initiated an Entered Apprentice on 1/19. I have been invited to 'join the line' in the fall, meaning I will become an officer of the Lodge and may some day work my way up to Worshipful Master of my Blue Lodge (Grand Poobah). I would be pleased to answer your questions, dispell myths and fight some ignorance in regard to the Fraternity. There is a lot of information about the Freemasons out there, much of it accurate, much of it hogwash, and most of it somewhere in between. This is not a solicitation to recruit members, but if you've ever thought about joining the Masons but don't know how to take that first step, I can set you in the right direction.

I've taken certain vows to protect the secrets of Masonry, and will not reveal them, but even if I told you these secrets they would have no value to you as a non-Mason.

So, fire away.

[runner pat]

I thought the first rule of Freemasonry is you don't talk about Freemasonry.

[Winston Smith]

I thought the first rule of Freemasonry is you don't talk about Freemasonry.

No, you're thinking <REDACTED>.

[NAF1138]

This is going to sound glib, but I don't mean it that way.

How do you like it? Other than the secret stuff (which I don't really care about) what's it like now that you are in?

Was there anything that surprised you when you joined?

What would you tell people who are potentially interested in masonry but can't decide if it's worth their time to investigate because they don't themselves know any active masons?

[Unintentionally Blank]

What belt do you have to attain to become an Illuminatus?

Do you all sit around a really cool table, behind a secret door in the library?

[sandra_nz]

What benefits do you get out of being a Freemason?

[Oakminster]

So, what are your secret plans to rule the world? And, in the event said plans are successful, how much are you willing to pay me to not go all Rebel Leader on your ass?

[Cyberhwk]

What benefits do you get out of being a Freemason?

This too. Is it socializing? Networking? Volunteering? Just a place to hang out?

I don't know much about the Masons.

[Heart of Dorkness]

What inspired you to get involved originally? Can I (a female atheist) be a Mason? I can't, can I?

[Winston Smith]

This is going to sound glib, but I don't mean it that way.

How do you like it? Other than the secret stuff (which I don't really care about) what's it like now that you are in?

Was there anything that surprised you when you joined?

What would you tell people who are potentially interested in masonry but can't decide if it's worth their time to investigate because they don't themselves know any active masons?

It has been a very personally rewarding experience so far. The main reason I joined is because I moved to a town that's on the coast and very difficult to get in and out of - I live on a peninsula, so there's no passing through on the way somewhere else, I work a very demanding job an hour away, and all of my friends live at least an hour away. So, I got into a rut the last few years - go to work, go home, try to be Super Dad to the kids all weekend because I haven't seen them all week, never seeing my friends and not making new friends in town. So, I needed a change, needed to get out of the house and make some friends, connect with my community, etc. Masonry seemed liek a logical choice. And I have made some friends already. I had lunch with one of my Masonic Brothers today. A few of us have gotten together after our studies to have a few beers.

The biggest surprises have been the rituals in the degree ceremonies. I had an idea of what was going to happen, but the whole experience has really exceeded my expectations.

My advice to those interested would be to use a search engine to find a local Lodge and give them a call. There's a nation-wide open house at the end of the month, so now would be a good time.

[Winston Smith]

What belt do you have to attain to become an Illuminatus?

Do you all sit around a really cool table, behind a secret door in the library?

Heh. They won't tell me anything about the Illuminati, only that there is additional Degree work that may shed light on some of the questions I have. ;)

Not a cool table, but a large room with an altar in the middle. They haven't shown me the secret door yet (additional Degree work again).

[Nzinga, Seated]

I had someone tell me that one of the rituals include spitting on the crucifix. Did he make that up?

[AClockworkMelon]

What is the point of the Freemasons? I mean, what's the group's mission statement? What are some of the requirements for joining?

[Winston Smith]

What benefits do you get out of being a Freemason?

This too. Is it socializing? Networking? Volunteering? Just a place to hang out?

I don't know much about the Masons.


All of the above, but I'd say "Fraternity" instead of socializing (not to nitpick, just a little different). I've only been involved with Masonry for a couple of months, but I've already made a couple friends. And, to me, that's really meaningful. It's a lot harder to make new friends when you're 40 than when you're 20, but within the Fraternity, it's a lot easier.

[Winston Smith]

What inspired you to get involved originally? Can I (a female atheist) be a Mason? I can't, can I?

This is a tough question to answer, because there are a lot of reasons. As I mentioned above, I needed a social outlet, but something more rewarding than going to a bar and joining a dart league. I'd like to be a better husband, father and citizen, and Masonry promises to "make good men better". I've never been in a Fraternity before, and have always found the aire of mystery and secrecy sort of tantalizing, too.

We've befriended a family in town (our kids are classmates & friends) and the dad is a Mason. I asked him if he'd help me learn more, and the rest is history.

ETA: Sorry, no ladies and no athiests. There is an organization called "Eastern Star" that is pretty much Masonry for ladies, though I'm not sure they accept athiests, either. Although it is not a religion, belief in a higher power is central to a lot of the themes, rituals and practices of Masonry, and there's no secular translation.

[TruCelt]

I have heard the rituals referred to as "Fear-factor lite." Was there anything involved which made you cringe, or which you had to question on an ethical or moral level? What about just frightening or gross?

And if you can tell us, is it true that there are human remains (skulls, etc) involved?

[Winston Smith]

I had someone tell me that one of the rituals include spitting on the crucifix. Did he make that up?

Yes. There's no way anything like that would ever occur in any ritual associated with Masonry.

[Nzinga, Seated]

I knew for a 100 percent fact he was full of it! Man, he's so full of it.

[Winston Smith]

What is the point of the Freemasons? I mean, what's the group's mission statement? What are some of the requirements for joining?

Freemasonry is a Fraternity which contributes a lot of money to charitable causes. The Shriner's Hospital is perhaps the best-known example of charitable work done by Masons. I read this morning that the Masons are responsible for 80% of the blood donated to the Red Cross in my state. So, the main point of the Fraternity is fraternity, but the Masons do a lot of good work.

Among the requirements to join are being a man, free-born, over 21, of good character, and belief in a higher power.

[Alan Smithee]

ETA: Sorry, no ladies and no athiests. There is an organization called "Eastern Star" that is pretty much Masonry for ladies, though I'm not sure they accept athiests, either. Although it is not a religion, belief in a higher power is central to a lot of the themes, rituals and practices of Masonry, and there's no secular translation.I actually thought I'd read recently that they had started admitting women. Was it my imagination, or is it just that most women would rather be in Eastern Star?

The atheist thing bugs me. I'm always up for any excuse to be social, and I like a lot of what Masonry claims to stand for. I have no problem with "cermonial deism" (although I don't buy it in the legal context the term was created for), but I won't pretend to believe.

[Winston Smith]

I have heard the rituals referred to as "Fear-factor lite." Was there anything involved which made you cringe, or which you had to question on an ethical or moral level? What about just frightening or gross?

And if you can tell us, is it true that there are human remains (skulls, etc) involved?

The third degree ritual deals with the subject of death, but within the context of the progression of degrees, it is not morbid or anything like that. The first degree deals with youth, and the second degree deals with middle age. The ceremony surprised me, but nothing I experienced was even remotely cringe-worthy, unethical or immoral. It would be very difficult to explain the context of the ceremony to the extent that you would fairly have the proper context by which to understand the actual events of the ceremony, but "Fear-factor lite" would not be an unfair characterization. :)

As a matter of fact, the tenets of the ceremony (and Masonry in general) are Morality and Ethics.

No human skulls or remains - that's part of later degrees ;)

[Alan Smithee]

Wait, free-born? Really? I know that's just a relic, but Masonry is an international organization, and slavery and indentured servitude do still exist in the world. Would someone really be disqualified based on their legal status at birth? That's pretty offensive.

[Winston Smith]

I actually thought I'd read recently that they had started admitting women. Was it my imagination, or is it just that most women would rather be in Eastern Star?

The atheist thing bugs me. I'm always up for any excuse to be social, and I like a lot of what Masonry claims to stand for. I have no problem with "cermonial deism" (although I don't buy it in the legal context the term was created for), but I won't pretend to believe.

Yes, Eastern Star is for the ladies. There are definitely no women accepted as Masons.

It's more than "cermonial deism", though. Masonic rituals and meetings include a lot of prayers, some hymns, and talk about the "Supreme Architect"; belief really is central to their teachings. Without belief, much of the meaning is lost.

[Joey P]

Okay, stupid question, I know. Actually, two stupid questions. 1)Freemason and Mason, are the terms used interchangeably? 2)Do Freemasons/Masons have anything to do with brick and concrete workers that call themselves masons?

[AClockworkMelon]

Wait, free-born? Really? I know that's just a relic, but Masonry is an international organization, and slavery and indentured servitude do still exist in the world. Would someone really be disqualified based on their legal status at birth? That's pretty offensive.
No more offensive than basing requirements on gender. The organization isn't a government one, they can do as they please with their club.

[ivan astikov]

What's that business about hopping on one leg? Or just hopping, whatever!

Does the "dressing up" aspect appeal to you at all?

[Winston Smith]

Wait, free-born? Really? I know that's just a relic, but Masonry is an international organization, and slavery and indentured servitude do still exist in the world. Would someone really be disqualified based on their legal status at birth? That's pretty offensive.

Yes, they still include "free-born" in the requirements. At it's core, this means that in order to be a Mason, a man's time must be his own. A slave or indentured servant cannot commit his time because it is not his to give.

It's also symbolic of the fact that Masonry is something to which you must devote you time in order to benefit from it, and if you do not have the time to spend, you shouldn't join. More or less.

[fluiddruid]

Do you know of fraternal (or, well, comparable) organizations that accept female atheists? I've always been interested in them but there don't seem to be any options for me. I'm okay with secrecy and ritualism, I just won't vow that I believe in a Creator.

[Winston Smith]

Okay, stupid question, I know. Actually, two stupid questions. 1)Freemason and Mason, are the terms used interchangeably? 2)Do Freemasons/Masons have anything to do with brick and concrete workers that call themselves masons?

Yes, we use Freemason and Mason interchangably (to the best of my knowledge). The origins of our Fraternity are said to be in the Stone Masons guild of ancient times, and the rituals and teachings use the tools of operative masons (trowel, square, level, etc) in a symbolic manner.

[Winston Smith]

What's that business about hopping on one leg? Or just hopping, whatever!

Does the "dressing up" aspect appeal to you at all?

Hopping did not occur during any of my initiation ceremonies, nor have I heard of any hopping to occur at some later date.

The dressing up? How do you mean?

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

What kind of time commitment does freemasonry involve? Are you required to attend a certain number of meetings or donate a certain amount of time to the charitable works? Does the ritual make the meetings long?

Also, what is the difference between Masons and Shriners? I talked to my uncle once years ago (he's since passed on), and if I recall correctly, he was thirtieth degree, Scottish Rite. But he wouldn't tell me anything.

I actually thought I'd read recently that they had started admitting women. Was it my imagination, or is it just that most women would rather be in Eastern Star?Might you be thinking of the Elks? We've been admitting women for a while now, but people are just starting to notice. I'm just finishing up my term as Exalted Ruler in my Lodge, and three of my officers are women. Next year, we're adding another.

[Winston Smith]

Do you know of fraternal (or, well, comparable) organizations that accept female atheists? I've always been interested in them but there don't seem to be any options for me. I'm okay with secrecy and ritualism, I just won't vow that I believe in a Creator.

Maybe the National Organization for Women? I dunno. I reckon the Eastern Star has the same requirement for belief that the Masons do.

My best friend is an athiest, and when I told him I was joining he said pretty much what has been expressed here - he'd like to join, but the whole requirement for belief in a higher power thing just didn't work for him.

[Alan Smithee]

Yes, they still include "free-born" in the requirements. At it's core, this means that in order to be a Mason, a man's time must be his own. A slave or indentured servant cannot commit his time because it is not his to give.

It's also symbolic of the fact that Masonry is something to which you must devote you time in order to benefit from it, and if you do not have the time to spend, you shouldn't join. More or less.

But free-born is not the same as free.

I would further argue that one's time is always one's own by natural right, regardless of legal status.
Might you be thinking of the Elks? We've been admitting women for a while now, but people are just starting to notice. I'm just finishing up my term as Exalted Ruler in my Lodge, and three of my officers are women. Next year, we're adding another. Probably.

Out of curiosity, how do they feel about atheists?

[Rhythmdvl]

What about an agnostic Jew? Are the hymns/prayers/rituals Christ-based? What about a very open-minded Buddhist? Is the belief in a higher power similar to, say, the loose belief in a HP as thought necessary by AA?

What did you mean by "gotten together after our studies"? Does your time in the lodge require a fair amount of history/lore learning? What else do you do in a lodge between blood-donating and charity setting-up? Drink? Play mumbleypeg?


Do you know anything about the Rotarians, Lions Cubs, Knights o' Columbas, etc? Is there any way to compare organizatons?

[ivan astikov]

Hopping did not occur during any of my initiation ceremonies, nor have I heard of any hopping to occur at some later date.
It's probably just for the higher level members then.

The dressing up? How do you mean?

Don't you wear trendy robes and sashes, and have funky jewelery?

[Winston Smith]

What kind of time commitment does freemasonry involve? Are you required to attend a certain number of meetings or donate a certain amount of time to the charitable works? Does the ritual make the meetings long?

Also, what is the difference between Masons and Shriners? I talked to my uncle once years ago (he's since passed on), and if I recall correctly, he was thirtieth degree, Scottish Rite. But he wouldn't tell me anything.

Might you be thinking of the Elks? We've been admitting women for a while now, but people are just starting to notice. I'm just finishing up my term as Exalted Ruler in my Lodge, and three of my officers are women. Next year, we're adding another.

Meetings are once a month, except in July & August (when the Lodge goes dark). As far as how much time it takes, that's really up to the individual. Technically, now that I've got my dues card I'll be a Moson as long as I keep current on my dues. I could probably spend the rest of my life as a member in good standing and never set foot in a Lodge again. Obviously, that's not the point of it, though. You can go once a month to the meetings, or join the line and go twice a month, or visit other Lodges, join charitable committees, etc. As much or as little time as you want, really.

The Shrine runs the Shriners Hospital, and their association with the Masons is that membership in the Masons is a pre-requisite to joining the Shrine. And they wear the funny hats and get to drive tine fire engines. Scottish and York Rite are also appendant bodies that are seperate from Masonry, but require members to be Masons. They all have specif charities they operate and specific teachings and methods of teaching.

[Winston Smith]

It's probably just for the higher level members then.


Don't you wear trendy robes and sashes, and have funky jewelery?

Perhaps.

The officers at my Lodge wear tuxedos with vestments to signify their rank in the Lodge. I heard they get all decked out like you describe in other Lodges, but not mine. The funky jewelery is kind of cool though, yeah.

I wear dockers and a sports coat to Lodge. Most of the guys wear suits.

[freckafree]

Do you know of fraternal (or, well, comparable) organizations that accept female atheists? I've always been interested in them but there don't seem to be any options for me. I'm okay with secrecy and ritualism, I just won't vow that I believe in a Creator.

Not to hijack Winston's thread, but you might be happy with Rotary. (I'm no longer a member. I just didn't have the time I felt I should commit to it.) We had a lot of women (including me) in our chapter.

As far as atheism goes, you certainly won't be quizzed about your beliefs to qualify for membership. Our chapter meetings always began with the singing of The Star Spangled Banner and a non-denominational invocation. If a 30-second vague prayer is too much religion, then Rotary might not be for you. (I'm guessing chapters may vary widely in the degree of religiosity, though.)

[Joey P]

Yes, we use Freemason and Mason interchangably (to the best of my knowledge). The origins of our Fraternity are said to be in the Stone Masons guild of ancient times, and the rituals and teachings use the tools of operative masons (trowel, square, level, etc) in a symbolic manner.
Other then using the tools of the masons as symbols and the name, the two groups really have nothing to do with each other though, right?

[VunderBob]

Yes, they still include "free-born" in the requirements. At it's core, this means that in order to be a Mason, a man's time must be his own. A slave or indentured servant cannot commit his time because it is not his to give.

I'm married, so I guess that rules me out, too. ;)

[Billdo]

You mention that you were initiated into a series of degrees of Masonry, and that there are more to come.

Other than having different initiation ceremonies as you discuss, can you explain the both ceremonial and practical differences between the degrees. Are there reasons why one would get one or more of them and not the others? Do they entitle you to different things? Are there separate requirements for each?

[Claude Remains]

Q. How many Masons does it take to change a light bulb?
A. After much research this tricky question can now be answered. It takes 20, as follows:

2 to complain that the light doesn't work.
1 to pass the problem to either another committee, the Temple Board or the Master of the Lodge.
3 to do a study on light in the Lodge.
2 to check out the types of lights the Knights of Columbus use.
3 to argue about it.
5 to plan a fund-raising dinner to raise money for the bulb.
2 to complain that "that′s not the way we did it before."
1 to borrow a ladder, donate the bulb and install it.
1 to order the brass memorial plate and have it inscribed.

[Infovore]

Yes, Eastern Star is for the ladies. There are definitely no women accepted as Masons.

I believe there's an organization called "Co-Masonry" that's essentially Masonry that accepts both men and women. It's not sanctioned by the Grand Lodge, though.

As far as Eastern Star being "Masonry for ladies," I'd say that's probably not quite accurate. OES does have rituals, but it's not really the same thing. My parents were in Masonry and Eastern Star for many years, and I definitely got the impression that OES was more of a Masonic support organization, concerned more with philanthropy and entertaining than with ritual. I know the Eastern Star has ritual (I used to help my mother learn hers) but...I dunno. It just never seemed the same to me. Plus the fact that you can't be in the OES unless you have a close male relative who is/was a Mason, while any male who fulfills the requirements can be a Mason.

Ever since I was a kid (I'm female) I wanted to be a Mason. I never wanted to be in the Eastern Star, because it always struck me as the "Masonic Ladies Auxiliary." (No offense intended to OES Dopers...it's just not the sort of thing that appeals to me.)

[Paul in Qatar]

Welcome to the club Brother Winston Smith!

[The Second Stone]

Is it true that all the secrets are in books that anyone can buy at a Masonic bookstore or a public library.

[EvilTOJ]

Did you get to meet Steve Gutenberg?

[ralph124c]

In the famous Kipling story ("The Man Who Would Be King"). the newspaper man is relaying a message from Daniel Dravott, to Peachy Carnahan.
He is asked to identify himself-and he replies "for the sake of the widow's son"-is this a Masonic identification?

[Paul in Qatar]

No; or perhaps not any more.

[Winston Smith]

But free-born is not the same as free.

I would further argue that one's time is always one's own by natural right, regardless of legal status.
Probably.

Out of curiosity, how do they feel about atheists?

Indeed, I cannot argue with your reasoning. In any event, it's mostly a symbolic requirement to remind us that we must invest our time to the fraternity.

[Winston Smith]

Other then using the tools of the masons as symbols and the name, the two groups really have nothing to do with each other though, right?

I don't think so. However, I'm sure their are operative masons (tradesmen) that are also Masons (Fraternity). The Freemasons are not a labor union.

[Winston Smith]

I'm married, so I guess that rules me out, too. ;)

Yeah. SmithWife is jealous of my time away from the family, but all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

[Winston Smith]

I'm married, so I guess that rules me out, too. ;)

You mention that you were initiated into a series of degrees of Masonry, and that there are more to come.

Other than having different initiation ceremonies as you discuss, can you explain the both ceremonial and practical differences between the degrees. Are there reasons why one would get one or more of them and not the others? Do they entitle you to different things? Are there separate requirements for each?

Master Mason is the highest degree one can attain as a Mason. The additional degrees are attained through the appendant bodies like the Shrine, York Rite and etc. I'll answer in more detail in a couple hours when I'm in front of my PC. I'm on my iPhone at the moment.

[Perciful]

How come a Catholic can not become a free mason? Do you need to be an athiest to belong? I have a friend who is a Christian that goes on and on about how evil free masonry is. That the Third Temple is being rebuilt by the masons and it will be the end of the world etc. I shut her off at this point.

I always thought it was a mens club similiar to the Knights Of Columbus? A place for guys to do guy stuff. Secret rituals and rites and rings?

[Tom Scud]

So what's the average age in your lodge, or in your Order as a whole if you have some sense of it? I mostly know about the Elks, and they are worried about the fact that they're trending older and older as time goes on.

[dhkendall]

OK, enough with the penny-ante questions, somethign we all want to know:

Why the secrets? I doubt (though honestly I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong) that Masons, for example, have secret government access, or own all the world's gold or something like that, but why do they even have secrets from us "normals" then? I would think that a lot of the bad rep that Masons get would be cleared up if they were just open about what the secrets were, especially if they don't have any meaning to us. I'm sure that for most people, the word "Mason" = "secrets", not "fraternity" or "philanthropy", or "community involvement", but "secrets".

(Interestingly, the Google ad that comes up for this thread is "Freemasony Warning:
Do Not Join The Freemasons Until You've Seen This...
www. SecretsofMasons. com" I like the humour in the Google ad placement on some of these threads, adds to my Dope enjoyment ... )

[Paul in Qatar]

How come a Catholic can not become a free mason? Do you need to be an athiest to belong?

The Catholic Church has a long-standing grudge against Masonry. Masonry has no bone to pick with Rome. A Catholic can become a Mason, but might get in trouble with the Church.

I have a friend who is a Christian that goes on and on about how evil free masonry is. That the Third Temple is being rebuilt by the masons and it will be the end of the world etc. I shut her off at this point.

Being part of something some people do not like is part of the fun.

I always thought it was a mens club similiar to the Knights Of Columbus? A place for guys to do guy stuff. Secret rituals and rites and rings?

The Knights is (are?) a copy of Masonry designed to let good Catholic men do secret handshakes without endangering their souls.

[dhkendall]

The Catholic Church has a long-standing grudge against Masonry. Masonry has no bone to pick with Rome. A Catholic can become a Mason, but might get in trouble with the Church.

The Knights is (are?) a copy of Masonry designed to let good Catholic men do secret handshakes without endangering their souls.

OK, so *why* does the Vatican not like the Masons? Surely they don't decreee they don't like something for absolutely no reason and not based on facts?

OK, I couldn't type that with a straight face. :)

[Dogzilla]

Are you familiar with the Mormon temple ceremonies (http://home.teleport.com/~packham/temples.htm)?

How much of this does it appear was stolen from Masonry? According to my research, Joseph Smith was a Mason, as were most of the original founders of the LDS church. Just curious if you were aware of the similarities... and does that mean anything to the Masons?

[Paul in Qatar]

Also a lot of the 'Work' of the BPO Moose lodges were based on Masonry. At some point we asked them to find their own ritual.

[Alan Smithee]

Indeed, I cannot argue with your reasoning. In any event, it's mostly a symbolic requirement to remind us that we must invest our time to the fraternity."Mostly," perhaps, but what about someone who was born into slavery? Would he be denied membership? It does still happen in today's world.

[Winston Smith]

You mention that you were initiated into a series of degrees of Masonry, and that there are more to come.

Other than having different initiation ceremonies as you discuss, can you explain the both ceremonial and practical differences between the degrees. Are there reasons why one would get one or more of them and not the others? Do they entitle you to different things? Are there separate requirements for each?

Once you complete the first Degree (Entered Apprentice) you are a Mason, but you may only attend Lodges opened on the First Degree. It is my understanding that most of the activity of the Lodge is conducted while opened on the Third Degree (Master Mason), so you would have to leave the Lodge room and wait downstairs or something while that business was attended to. I went through the degrees with 7 other guys, and one of them had to drop out after the First Degree because he had just opened a resteraunt and could not commit the time to taking the additional degrees. He's planning on resuming in May, though. I can't think of any practical reason why someone wouldn't want to complete all three degrees, though. The degree work is sort of fun, and gives you a couple months to get to know your fellow canditates, with whom you will likely form Masonic bonds. I've begun forging good friendships with a couple of the guys from my class already (gone out for beers, lunch, etc).


The first Degree is in essence an introduction to Masonry. You are given the secret word and handshake of the Entered Apprentice and can participate in a Lodge opened on that degree. In the EA oath, you promise to keep the secrets of Masonry. Lastly, you may travel to other Lodges (opened on the first Degree), but must be accompanied by a Master Mason. The second Degree, Fellowcraft, confers additional words, handshakes, and elements in the oath. You are entitled to attend Lodge opened on the second Degree, and visit other Lodges on that degree, if accompanied by a Master Mason. A Master Mason has been entrusted with all the secrets of Masonry and can travel to any Lodge freely (as long as the Master Mason in question has a current dues card and isn't under suspension from the Fraternity). A Master Mason can sit in on the Degree rituals of an Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft or Master Mason.

I think of the first two Degrees as mile markers on the way to the third, but as you see they can be destinations in and of themselves.

Less quantifyable, but equally important, is that the ceremonies themselves become more elaborate, longer and more solemn/serious from first to third.

[Winston Smith]

Welcome to the club Brother Winston Smith!

Thank you, Brother Paul! I hope I am representing the Craft well herein.

[Winston Smith]

Is it true that all the secrets are in books that anyone can buy at a Masonic bookstore or a public library.

Yes, all the secret information conferred to me in the course of my Masonic initiation ceremonies is available in bookstores, libraries, and on line. The thing is, the secrets are meaningless if you aren't a Mason. The secrets are only meaningful within the context of the Fraternity and the rituals in which they are conferred. I don't think it's really a big deal, though, because it is highly unlikely a non-Mason could "fake" his way into a Lodge, and even if he did, what he found there would be meaningless to him, lacking the context & perspective on an actual initiate.

[Winston Smith]

Did you get to meet Steve Gutenberg?

I did! He presided over my first Degree! (Just kidding)

No. I have never met Steve Gutenberg, but I loved Police Academy.

[Winston Smith]

In the famous Kipling story ("The Man Who Would Be King"). the newspaper man is relaying a message from Daniel Dravott, to Peachy Carnahan.
He is asked to identify himself-and he replies "for the sake of the widow's son"-is this a Masonic identification?

Those words are meaningful to me, but not in the context presented. I've never read much Kipling, but 10 seconds on a search engine reveal he was a Mason. Perhaps he wanted to suggest a taste of Masonic authenticity without revealing too much. I don't know.

[fluiddruid]

Not to hijack Winston's thread, but you might be happy with Rotary. (I'm no longer a member. I just didn't have the time I felt I should commit to it.) We had a lot of women (including me) in our chapter.I've looked into the Rotary but they meet during the work day for some reason. Ah well.

As I don't mean to hijack the thread either, I'll ask another question:

How do you feel about excluding women from being Masons? Do you predict that Masons allowing women is in the foreseeable future?

[Winston Smith]

How come a Catholic can not become a free mason? Do you need to be an athiest to belong? I have a friend who is a Christian that goes on and on about how evil free masonry is. That the Third Temple is being rebuilt by the masons and it will be the end of the world etc. I shut her off at this point.

I always thought it was a mens club similiar to the Knights Of Columbus? A place for guys to do guy stuff. Secret rituals and rites and rings?

I'm Catholic, and I'm a Mason. I'd rather not speculate about why the Holy See villifies Masons, since I don't want my personal opinion being misconstrued as Masonic canon, and I don't want this thread to become contentious. I can say, however, that nothing about being a Mason interferes with my being a Catholic, nor detracts from it in any way. As a matter of fact, being a Mason could very possibly make me a better Catholic.
You cannot be a Mason if you are an athiest.
So do I.
The Third Temple being built is allegory for self-improvement.
Yes, it is in some ways similar to the KoC.

[Winston Smith]

So what's the average age in your lodge, or in your Order as a whole if you have some sense of it? I mostly know about the Elks, and they are worried about the fact that they're trending older and older as time goes on.

I'm in a young Lodge - the average is 43. I think.

My town is big on social clubs, though, and is rife with them. Every neighborhood has a club, and there are a handful of clubs even more secretive and exclusive than the Masons. There's one club in town called "The 100 Club". They have exactly 100 members. No more, no less. The waiting list to join is over 20 years long, as you have to wait for someone to die to get his seat & key. It's costly to join, too, and the one-time initiation fee makes you a life member. :eek:

[Winston Smith]

OK, enough with the penny-ante questions, somethign we all want to know:

Why the secrets? I doubt (though honestly I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong) that Masons, for example, have secret government access, or own all the world's gold or something like that, but why do they even have secrets from us "normals" then? I would think that a lot of the bad rep that Masons get would be cleared up if they were just open about what the secrets were, especially if they don't have any meaning to us. I'm sure that for most people, the word "Mason" = "secrets", not "fraternity" or "philanthropy", or "community involvement", but "secrets".

(Interestingly, the Google ad that comes up for this thread is "Freemasony Warning:
Do Not Join The Freemasons Until You've Seen This...
www. SecretsofMasons. com" I like the humour in the Google ad placement on some of these threads, adds to my Dope enjoyment ... )

Because it's fun to have secrets that make the "normals" quake in dread. :p

A few minutes with a search engine will reveal that at this point it's pretty clear the Masonic secrets have all been revealed and don't amount to much more than a few words and special handshakes, and I think any Mason you meet will tell you pretty much everything you'd care to know about the Fraternity (short of those words and handshakes).

[Chimera]

About how long does it take to go from new member to Master Mason?

I'm curious because I recently googled an old (former) friend who I parted company with about 9 years ago. At that time he was an avowed Atheist and had serious issues getting any time away from home (due to wife pressure). Now I see that he's a Master Mason, and an officer of his order, among other things. Honestly, I was rather shocked to see that, but I have to admit that I very much respect that accomplishment on his part.

[Winston Smith]

"Mostly," perhaps, but what about someone who was born into slavery? Would he be denied membership? It does still happen in today's world.

Hmm. I'm in uncharted territory here, but I'll say: No. I don't think he would be denied membership if he had "cast off his bonds". I think the original context of the words free-born is germane here. Back when the rituals were written, a man was either a slave, or a free-born man - if you were a slave, you stayed that way.

Like I said, the operative use of the words in today's ceremony are to confer the importance of actually having time to devote for the fraternity.

I don't think it should be interpreted as approving of the practice of slavery.

[Winston Smith]

How do you feel about excluding women from being Masons? Do you predict that Masons allowing women is in the foreseeable future?

I don't think it's a problem. I mean, it's a Fraternity. By definition it's an organization for men. Just like on the college campus: Fraternities for the men, Sororities for the women. I'm sure there's plenty of social clubs out there that wouldn't allow me - a white, Christian male, but I don't begrudge them that.

[dhkendall]

Once you complete the first Degree (Entered Apprentice) you are a Mason, but you may only attend Lodges opened on the First Degree. It is my understanding that most of the activity of the Lodge is conducted while opened on the Third Degree (Master Mason), so you would have to leave the Lodge room and wait downstairs or something while that business was attended to.

*has an epiphany* Is this where the phrase "giving somoene the third degree" comes from?

I remember last year when one of the local Mason chapters asked my Toastmasters group to come and give a presentation about public speaking to them, some members including myself got together to go out there, but it never happened,a s we went to the main lodge in the city (one that Toastmasters are familiar with, as another club meets there as well) instead of a smaller suburban lodge. They understood. But what reminded me was that we were told that we'd have to wait outside the room for part of the meeting while they do secret Mason things.

Because it's fun to have secrets that make the "normals" quake in dread. :p

A few minutes with a search engine will reveal that at this point it's pretty clear the Masonic secrets have all been revealed and don't amount to much more than a few words and special handshakes, and I think any Mason you meet will tell you pretty much everything you'd care to know about the Fraternity (short of those words and handshakes).

Bah, that's not what I care about. If those "secrets" are out on the web and in bookstores, then they're not really "secret" now, are they? No, I mean something that is truly a Masonic secret, like your plot for world domination, where you're hiding Elvis, or at least a good chicken tandoori recipe.

[Winston Smith]

About how long does it take to go from new member to Master Mason?

I'm curious because I recently googled an old (former) friend who I parted company with about 9 years ago. At that time he was an avowed Atheist and had serious issues getting any time away from home (due to wife pressure). Now I see that he's a Master Mason, and an officer of his order, among other things. Honestly, I was rather shocked to see that, but I have to admit that I very much respect that accomplishment on his part.

It took about two months for me. It is possible to do all three Degrees in a single day, but the officers of my Lodge all told me I'll have more fun and learn more by goign the traditional route.

[Dogzilla]

Why dodging the mormon parallel question? (Post #58.)

Missed it or missed it on purpose?

[Winston Smith]

*has an epiphany* Is this where the phrase "giving somoene the third degree" comes from?


Yes (or so I'm told).



I remember last year when one of the local Mason chapters asked my Toastmasters group to come and give a presentation about public speaking to them, some members including myself got together to go out there, but it never happened,a s we went to the main lodge in the city (one that Toastmasters are familiar with, as another club meets there as well) instead of a smaller suburban lodge. They understood. But what reminded me was that we were told that we'd have to wait outside the room for part of the meeting while they do secret Mason things.


They were probably opening the Lodge, which is a private ritual.


Bah, that's not what I care about. If those "secrets" are out on the web and in bookstores, then they're not really "secret" now, are they? No, I mean something that is truly a Masonic secret, like your plot for world domination, where you're hiding Elvis, or at least a good chicken tandoori recipe.

You're exactly correct - our Masonic "secrets" aren't really secret at all.

[RickJay]

I was raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason on March 16, was previously passed to the degree of Fellow Craft on 2/16 and was initiated an Entered Apprentice on 1/19. I have been invited to 'join the line' in the fall, meaning I will become an officer of the Lodge and may some day work my way up to Worshipful Master of my Blue Lodge (Grand Poobah).
Honest question; you guys are just joking around with those titles, right?

[Winston Smith]

Why dodging the mormon parallel question? (Post #58.)

Missed it or missed it on purpose?

My apologies. I thought that Paul in Qatar had responded, and I have never even heard of it (the mormon parallel). I figured you'd gotten a fair response and did not mean to slight you.

[Winston Smith]

Honest question; you guys are just joking around with those titles, right?

Well, yes and no. I mean, the titles, vestments, rituals and so on are taken very seriously within the context of the Fraternity, because these are the things that make us Masons. The guy that runs the Lodge (the Grand Poobah) is referred to as "Worshipful Master", or "Worshipful" if you're into the whole brevity thing. I felt a little awkward at first, calling the guy "Worshipful", but I got used to it pretty quick, and learning the funny vagaries of protocol and stuff is part of the fun of being a Mason. It's meant to be an enjoyable experience.

All the traditions of the Fraternity are communicated by practice - I'm learning the rituals and protocol of Masonry, and some day, when the current crop of senior Lodge officers dies, I'll be the teacher passing on the traditions of the Fraternity to new Masons. So, it's a pretty important responsibility to learn the rituals and protocols, but at the same time, we all recognize that some of it is pretty silly.

Does that make sense?

[Dogzilla]

My apologies. I thought that Paul in Qatar had responded, and I have never even heard of it (the mormon parallel). I figured you'd gotten a fair response and did not mean to slight you.

I didn't see how Paul in Qatar's response had anything to do with my question. I provided a link above so you can see what the mormon temple rituals are like and can more accurately compare.

Full Disclosure: I'm an exmormon but have never been to the mormon temple. There's a lot of discussion ongoing on the exmo boards in regard to the Masonic connection to mormonism, which is why I'm following this thread.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Out of curiosity, how do they feel about atheists?(speaking of the Elks here, not the Masons, as this question was directed to me)
Joining requires that you be a U.S. citizen and affirm a belief in God. There is no restriction on that belief. My Lodge has active Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and many that I'm not sure of (because it's none of my business). I know of Mormon and Muslim Elks as well, although not in my Lodge. But not atheists.

Frankly, this is one of the things that bothers me about the Elks. There is nothing overtly religious about the organization at all. It isn't affiliated with any church in any way, yet we have to turn away potential members because of their religious beliefs. Our big causes as an organization are taking care of veterans and kids (last time I checked, the U.S. Government was the only organization in America that gave out more scholarship money than the Elks). Our state organization has a marvelous program that buys emergency room equipment for rural hospitals.

The Elks have no membership prohibition based on race, gender, sexual preference, income level, or any other common basis for discrimination except this. If you don't believe in God, you can't help us with our charitable works.

I shouldn't say any more, though, because I'm posting under my real name, and I am currently the Exalted Ruler of my Lodge.

[Perciful]

Well, yes and no. I mean, the titles,
Does that make sense?

Thanks for answering my questions. I have always wondered but have never known a mason enough to ask. My upstairs neighbor is a mason because he has the decal on his car and one of my doctors recently told me he joined.

I am still curious about the third temple connection. I saw some of the temple building being built on Utube. What is supposed to happen once it is built? If it is not a secret I would like to know. I have heard so many things about the end of the world or a global government?

[Winston Smith]

I didn't see how Paul in Qatar's response had anything to do with my question. I provided a link above so you can see what the mormon temple rituals are like and can more accurately compare.

Full Disclosure: I'm an exmormon but have never been to the mormon temple. There's a lot of discussion ongoing on the exmo boards in regard to the Masonic connection to mormonism, which is why I'm following this thread.

Huh. Well, a second apology, then. I quickly scanned the page you linked, then looked at Joe Smith's wikipedia entry to only to learn that he was a Mason. I don't know this for a fact, but it seems reasonable that he would take Masonic ritual and mold it into Mormon ritual. I'll look more closely at the linked page over the weekend and if I come up with a more informed response I'll provide it.

[Winston Smith]

(speaking of the Elks here, not the Masons, as this question was directed to me)
Joining requires that you be a U.S. citizen and affirm a belief in God. There is no restriction on that belief. My Lodge has active Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and many that I'm not sure of (because it's none of my business). I know of Mormon and Muslim Elks as well, although not in my Lodge. But not atheists.

Frankly, this is one of the things that bothers me about the Elks. There is nothing overtly religious about the organization at all. It isn't affiliated with any church in any way, yet we have to turn away potential members because of their religious beliefs. Our big causes as an organization are taking care of veterans and kids (last time I checked, the U.S. Government was the only organization in America that gave out more scholarship money than the Elks). Our state organization has a marvelous program that buys emergency room equipment for rural hospitals.

The Elks have no membership prohibition based on race, gender, sexual preference, income level, or any other common basis for discrimination except this. If you don't believe in God, you can't help us with our charitable works.

I shouldn't say any more, though, because I'm posting under my real name, and I am currently the Exalted Ruler of my Lodge.



Hey Gary,

I noticed just this morning that there's an Elks Lodge in my town. How do I go about joining, and how much can I expect to pay for yearly dues?

[Dogzilla]

Thanks, Winston! Take your time. I don't have much to do with the computer after 5:00 on Fridays, so I'll catch you on Monday. Enjoy your weekend.

If you have time or the inclination to do a little more research, google about Joseph Smith's death. There is some controversy that, as he was shot out of a window of the Carthage IL jail, he allegedly gave a Masonic code/signal/cry for help to whatever Masonic brethren might have been willing to help him out. Nobody did, IIRC, because they were lynching the guy for boffing teenaged girls.

[Winston Smith]

Thanks for answering my questions. I have always wondered but have never known a mason enough to ask. My upstairs neighbor is a mason because he has the decal on his car and one of my doctors recently told me he joined.

I am still curious about the third temple connection. I saw some of the temple building being built on Utube. What is supposed to happen once it is built? If it is not a secret I would like to know. I have heard so many things about the end of the world or a global government?

Building the Temple is allegory for self-improvement and character-building. The Temple is never finished because self-improvement is a life-long endeavor.

I don't think the Masons are interested in creating a world or global government. Discussion of politics is not allowed in Lodge, because it could disrupt the harmony of the Lodge. The other topics not allowed to be discussed in Lodge are religion and business/business ventures.

[Tastes of Chocolate]

Among the requirements to join are being a man, free-born, over 21, of good character, and belief in a higher power.

Do these restrictions bother you at all? Is it part of the appeal? Is it something that you view as something to put up with, to join? Basically, do you view the restritions as good, bad or indifferent?

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Hey Gary,

I noticed just this morning that there's an Elks Lodge in my town. How do I go about joining, and how much can I expect to pay for yearly dues?

The process is easiest if you happen to know a member. If you don't, just stop by the Lodge sometime when it's open and ask about it. If it has a bar (as many of them do), you can typically find someone who will admit you as a guest, and there is almost always a stack of membership applications on the bar.

You could also PM me and let me know what town you're in. I can look up the Lodge number by ZIP code and see if I know anyone there.

Yearly dues vary from Lodge to Lodge. Ours is $80/year. The ones that have golf courses, tennis courts, and so on can be a fair amount higher. Some of the smaller Lodges are less. Incidentally, being an Elk is really handy if you travel around the country much. At least half the Lodges have free overnight camping for members with RVs. Most are parking lots, but some are full-fledged campsites with hookups.

[septimus]

I have at least one ancestor who was a Mason 100 years ago. Confirmation of this, and knowing which of his ancestors were Masons would be useful to me as a genealogist. Do the Masons preserve old membership records, and if so is there any way I could access those of my ancestor(s)?

[Winston Smith]

Do these restrictions bother you at all? Is it part of the appeal? Is it something that you view as something to put up with, to join? Basically, do you view the restritions as good, bad or indifferent?

Like any other club, the requirements to join are part of what defines the Fraternity. The idea of joining a club like this is to enjoy the society of people like yourself, and I'm pleased that I was able to meet the membership criteria. Like I said before, there are plenty of organizations out there that I can't join because I don't meet their membership criteria, but I don't begrudge them that.

So, I wouldn't go so far as to say I find it to be part of the appeal, but I certainly don't have a problem with it.

[YogSosoth]

Do all the guys in there actually know masonry?

[Winston Smith]

The process is easiest if you happen to know a member. If you don't, just stop by the Lodge sometime when it's open and ask about it. If it has a bar (as many of them do), you can typically find someone who will admit you as a guest, and there is almost always a stack of membership applications on the bar.

You could also PM me and let me know what town you're in. I can look up the Lodge number by ZIP code and see if I know anyone there.

Yearly dues vary from Lodge to Lodge. Ours is $80/year. The ones that have golf courses, tennis courts, and so on can be a fair amount higher. Some of the smaller Lodges are less. Incidentally, being an Elk is really handy if you travel around the country much. At least half the Lodges have free overnight camping for members with RVs. Most are parking lots, but some are full-fledged campsites with hookups.

Thanks for the info. I'll ask around the Lodge and I bet I'll find an Elk.

[Winston Smith]

I have at least one ancestor who was a Mason 100 years ago. Confirmation of this, and knowing which of his ancestors were Masons would be useful to me as a genealogist. Do the Masons preserve old membership records, and if so is there any way I could access those of my ancestor(s)?

Yes, Masons keep records of their members, including name, date and place of birth, dates and places of Masonic Degrees, and (if applicable) date of death. There may be additional information, as well, though I'm not sure.

I don't know that the information is available to non-Masons, though. You'd have to find out which Lodge your ancestor was a member of, and if it is still open you might contact the Lodge Historian or Lodge Secretary.

[Winston Smith]

Do all the guys in there actually know masonry?

We know the names and use of many of the tools of operative masonry, such as the trowel, plum and square, as they are symbolic of certain Masonic concepts.

[Broomstick]

Wait, free-born? Really? I know that's just a relic, but Masonry is an international organization, and slavery and indentured servitude do still exist in the world. Would someone really be disqualified based on their legal status at birth? That's pretty offensive.
It's not just that - my husband was denied membershp in the Masons years ago because he was born with a birth defect (this was not a matter of just one Lodge rejecting him - he sought membership multiple times in multiple states). I'd like to think they've become more enlightened.

Then, when we got married, as part of our marriage vows we both promised never to join an organization that wouldn't accept the other - so he stopped looking to join the Masons and I never joined the 99's. No, we don't consider auxillaries "good enough". But that's us - obviously other people arrange their lives differently.

My paternal grandmother was part of Eastern Star at one point - at least, that's my assumption based on some of the personal effects I inherited from her. Always did feel somewhat awkward to have in possession materials from a secret society of which I was not a member, yet I never could bring myself to toss them, either, or give them away. I suppose it's vaguely naughty or something, although as mentioned the secrets are pretty much not very secret these days.

I reckon the Eastern Star has the same requirement for belief that the Masons do.
According to what I inherited from grandma, yes, Eastern Star also has that requirement. I should also point out that those books and things are more than 50 years old, so it's possible they've changed, but...

Might you be thinking of the Elks? We've been admitting women for a while now, but people are just starting to notice. I'm just finishing up my term as Exalted Ruler in my Lodge, and three of my officers are women. Next year, we're adding another.
Really? A fraternal organization both my husband and I can join as a couple? Are you interested in starting an "Ask the Elk member" thread?

Don't you wear trendy robes and sashes, and have funky jewelery?
Well, if the Masons aren't doing that you could always join the Neo-Pagan crowd - our robes and jewelry definitely tend toward funky (when we're not skyclad). Of course, we're a problem for the atheists, too, as we believe in multiple higher powers.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Really? A fraternal organization both my husband and I can join as a couple? Are you interested in starting an "Ask the Elk member" thread?Sure. Here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12243447) you go. Now I can stop hijacking Winston's thread.

Incidentally, if there are members of any other fraternal organizations that would like to start an "Ask the..." thread, go for it.

[moonstarssun]

When I was in college, I briefly dated a guy who told me he was a 32nd degree mason. He was 24, and said that it was unusual for someone his age to achieve that level. He was very secretive about all of it, so I was never sure whether he was just trying to impress me or if he honestly couldn't say anything.

So, is it possible for someone that young to be that high in the order (is that what it's called?)?

[Paul in Qatar]

I didn't see how Paul in Qatar's response had anything to do with my question. I provided a link above so you can see what the mormon temple rituals are like and can more accurately compare.

Full Disclosure: I'm an exmormon but have never been to the mormon temple. There's a lot of discussion ongoing on the exmo boards in regard to the Masonic connection to mormonism, which is why I'm following this thread.

Kindly forgive me. People who join the Masons are the sort of people who like to join things. As a result, parts of the ritual of the Moose, several early labor unions, the Klu Klux Klan, the Mormon Church and certainly other groups were based on Masonic ritual. As I said, at some point we asked the Moose (Mooses? Mice?) to cut it out and they did.

[Paul in Qatar]

When I was in college, I briefly dated a guy who told me he was a 32nd degree mason. He was 24, and said that it was unusual for someone his age to achieve that level. He was very secretive about all of it, so I was never sure whether he was just trying to impress me or if he honestly couldn't say anything.

So, is it possible for someone that young to be that high in the order (is that what it's called?)?

The 32nd Degree is given by the York Rite and Scottish Rite. It take a weekend to attend the ceremonies to be awarded the degree. No big deal. The 33rd Degree is only given for a lifetime of service to the Craft. It is a big deal.

No man is more Mason than one who holds the 3rd Degree (Master Mason) the other stuff is just for funnies. Oddly the York and Scottish Rites are America-mostly groups, so their degrees are just sort of made-up add ons.

[Alan Smithee]

It's not just that - my husband was denied membershp in the Masons years ago because he was born with a birth defect (this was not a matter of just one Lodge rejecting him - he sought membership multiple times in multiple states). I'd like to think they've become more enlightened.Have they? It sounds like it from what Winston said, but I'd like to know more about this. When did it change? What was the reasoning for the original rule and what was the reason for the change?

[Rhodes]

Thanks, Winston! Take your time. I don't have much to do with the computer after 5:00 on Fridays, so I'll catch you on Monday. Enjoy your weekend.

If you have time or the inclination to do a little more research, google about Joseph Smith's death. There is some controversy that, as he was shot out of a window of the Carthage IL jail, he allegedly gave a Masonic code/signal/cry for help to whatever Masonic brethren might have been willing to help him out. Nobody did, IIRC, because they were lynching the guy for boffing teenaged girls.

<hijack>
Not to nitpick, but Joseph Smith was not jailed and lynched for boffing teenaged girls.

He was jailed because as Mayor, Justice of the Peace, Presidential candidate, and General of his own private militia, he ordered an attack on the newspaper that was exposing him for boffing teenaged girls.

The official line from the LDS Church is that he was jailed on "false charges." They forget to mention that the charges were something like Treason against the US Constitution, and there is nothing "false" about it.
</hijack>

His jailors gave him a pistol to defend himself from the mob. Seeing that his cellmates were being hit in the crossfire, he jumped from the jail window shouting "oh Lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son?" Some people believe this was because he saw Jesus come to take him to celestial glory, while others think this was a desparate plea for help to his Masonic brothers in the mob.

ETA: I am not an expert in history or in masonry. If I've misrepresented any actual facts, please do your own research.

[Winston Smith]

Thanks, Winston! Take your time. I don't have much to do with the computer after 5:00 on Fridays, so I'll catch you on Monday. Enjoy your weekend.

If you have time or the inclination to do a little more research, google about Joseph Smith's death. There is some controversy that, as he was shot out of a window of the Carthage IL jail, he allegedly gave a Masonic code/signal/cry for help to whatever Masonic brethren might have been willing to help him out. Nobody did, IIRC, because they were lynching the guy for boffing teenaged girls.

So, I took some time to review the narrative of the Mormon rituals you linked, and it appears that a lot of what is revealed is very similar to Masonic Ritual. The exchanges described in giving and receiving passwords and handshakes in particular are certainly in keeping with my experiences in Masonry.


And, to address the rest of your question (which I have failed to do so far...)


According to my research, Joseph Smith was a Mason, as were most of the original founders of the LDS church. Just curious if you were aware of the similarities... and does that mean anything to the Masons?


I was previously unaware that Joe Smith was a Mason, or that the LDS Church was founded by men that were also Masons. I am going to ask around the Lodge about it, though, because I think it's pretty interesting. You also ask: "does that mean anything to Masons"; I can't say. While on one hand Masons are proud of the many contributions our Bretheren have made to society, we are also duty bound to avoid discussions of religion in the Lodge, as it might disrupt the harmony of said Lodge. I'm attending a Lodge of Instruction tomorrow night, and a special anniversary meeting of my Lodge on Thursday night (my Lodge is celebrating it's 250th anniversary on 3/25), so I'll ask around a little bit and if I come up with anything I think you may find interesting I'll post it.

[NAF1138]

I thought of another question that I don't think has been answered. What is a typical lodge meeting like? (again barring secret stuff that I don't care about anyway). Is it mostly, show up, take role, read the minutes, shoot the shit, go home? Or does other stuff go on?

[Winston Smith]

I thought of another question that I don't think has been answered. What is a typical lodge meeting like? (again barring secret stuff that I don't care about anyway). Is it mostly, show up, take role, read the minutes, shoot the shit, go home? Or does other stuff go on?

My Lodge is pretty big, and growing, so one of the main events of the meetings is the actual Degree work. The other elements of Lodge meetings are dinner, (Lodge) business meeting, and fellowship following the formal meeting (cheese & crackers, beer & wine).

So, a typical night at my Lodge will go something like this (not sure about other Lodges, but I'll presume they're all pretty much the same)...

6:00 PM: Lodge opens; Worshipful Master opens the Lodge on the Degree appropriate to the evening's agenda, the Chaplain says a prayer, everyone recites the Pledge of Allegiance (hand on heart, facint the American Flag, just like Elementary School), then the work of the Lodge begins (Degrees conferred upon candidates, etc.)

7:00 PM: Lodge breaks for refreshment (dinner). You go downstairs, get in line, and pay $15 for your meal (the meals are excellent - better than most resteraunts). There's a table where you can get soda or punch, and all the tables have bread & butter and salad. We sit 8 to a table at large round banquet tables. There's another table set with cheese & crackers and some sort of salty party mix. Everyone mills around and shoots the shit for 10 minutes or so, then the Worshipful Master calls everyones attention and offers a brief prayer (or the Chaplain will - either way), then the Rainbow Girls bring out meals pre-plated - last week we had stuffed chicken with gravy, green beans and a baked potato (there was a bowl of sour cream on each table). Everyone chows down, the girls clear the plates and serve dessert - last week we had apple crisp with ice cream. Then they clear the tables again and a couple of the Lodge Officers put a small wicker basket one each table and everyone coughs up a couple bucks for the girls. I'm not sure if the girls divvy up the tips for themselves or if they use the money for one of their own charitable causes (probably the latter). Then we all mill around and bullshit for a couple minutes and the Worshipful Master calls our attention once again and makes a few general announcements about upcoming events and etc. Then, promptly at 7:00 PM, we all go back upstairs to continue the business of the Lodge.

8:00 PM: Lodge business continues with additional Degree work, if necessary, then the business meeting, we vote on new member applications, and the Lodge's list of sick and distressed Brothers is attended to (like, Brother Smith broke his hip and is recovering at home - he would love visitors so if anyone would like to go see him let Worshipful Master know and he'll provide Br. Smith's address), etc. Also, discretionary charitable giving is proposed and/or voted on. Last week alone, we approved $11,000 in charitable giving to a handful of causes. This part of the meetign usually takes a couple hours, but can go longer depending on the agenda. The Third Degree Ceremony is pretty long, so last week we were in Lodge untill 11:00 PM, but I think 9:30 PM is average for the rest of the nights.

9:30 PM: Fellowship hour. Actually, they call it 'Correlation' (sp?) at the Lodge, but I can't find a definition for the word I think they're using that aligns with beer & wine). Anyways. We all go back downstairs, drink beer, eat cheese & crackers and shoot the shit for a couple hours. The only thing you have to pay for is the dinner - you don't pay for beer and wine during the fellowship time. Or longer. A couple of the guys at my Lodge are wealthy enough thet they don't have to work anymore, and young enough to be able to actually enjoy it, so they are there closing the place every month. I've got to work in the morning, though, so by 3 or 4 beers at 11 PM on a Tuesday I'm ready to call it a night.

That's pretty much it.

[Infovore]

then the Rainbow Girls bring out meals pre-plated - last week we had stuffed chicken with gravy, green beans and a baked potato (there was a bowl of sour cream on each table). Everyone chows down, the girls clear the plates and serve dessert - last week we had apple crisp with ice cream. Then they clear the tables again and a couple of the Lodge Officers put a small wicker basket one each table and everyone coughs up a couple bucks for the girls.

A couple of questions:

1. What's the difference between a Job's Daughter and a Rainbow Girl? Is it an age thing? They're both Masonic offshoots, right?

2. Do you guys have DeMolay? If so, do they ever serve tables? I don't mean to try to find sexism where none exists, but it seems a little weird that the young girls are serving a bunch of guys (especially if the boys never do it).

[Winston Smith]

A couple of questions:

1. What's the difference between a Job's Daughter and a Rainbow Girl? Is it an age thing? They're both Masonic offshoots, right?

2. Do you guys have DeMolay? If so, do they ever serve tables? I don't mean to try to find sexism where none exists, but it seems a little weird that the young girls are serving a bunch of guys (especially if the boys never do it).

Yes, JDI and Rainbow Girls are both Masonic Youth Organizations. I don't actually know what the difference is. I think Job's Daughters might have more religious themes, and Rainbow Girls more secular. Our Lodge doesn't have a Job's Daughters Chapter, though. Just the Rainbow Girls.

I haven't seen a DeMolay Chapter at our Lodge, but I will ask. I think I'll also ask about Your #1 question. I'll get back to you on both.

The men of the Lodge serve the food, as well, and clear the dishes (on the nights the Rainbow Girls are short-handed or if it's really busy for some reason). As I mentioned upthread, I presume the girls serve and clear as a way to raise money for their charitable causes. You've raised a really good question that I've idly speculated about myself. I'm going to ask and get the straight dope on this, too. It honestly doesn't appear that anything untoward is going on here, though.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Kindly forgive me. People who join the Masons are the sort of people who like to join things. As a result, parts of the ritual of the Moose, several early labor unions, the Klu Klux Klan, the Mormon Church and certainly other groups were based on Masonic ritual. As I said, at some point we asked the Moose (Mooses? Mice?) to cut it out and they did.
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku-Klux_Klan#The_second_Klan:_1915.E2.80.931944), the revived KKK, from about 1915 to 1945, was consciously modeled after fraternal organizations by its founder, who himself belonged to several. The idea was to attract potential members by bearing some resemblance to fraternal organizations that they were already members of.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Why does the meme that Freemasonry is equivalent to Baal worship persist? If you google "Freemasonry Baal Worship" you come up with some...interesting results.

Like this one, for instance: http://www.bloomington.in.us/~lgthscac/freemasonry.htm

I only skimmed it, but it appears that the issue these guys have with Freemasonry is that Masons equivocate all religions, while pretending to be Christians. Or something. Can you make any logic of this cite and these accusations in general?

If it is a Christian-based fraternity like you say it is (and you're a Catholic to boot), why all this other nonsense? Smear campaign by fear-mongers?

[Winston Smith]

Why does the meme that Freemasonry is equivalent to Baal worship persist? If you google "Freemasonry Baal Worship" you come up with some...interesting results.

Like this one, for instance: http://www.bloomington.in.us/~lgthscac/freemasonry.htm

I only skimmed it, but it appears that the issue these guys have with Freemasonry is that Masons equivocate all religions, while pretending to be Christians. Or something. Can you make any logic of this cite and these accusations in general?

If it is a Christian-based fraternity like you say it is (and you're a Catholic to boot), why all this other nonsense? Smear campaign by fear-mongers?

Masonry is not a "Christian-based fraternity". If you got that impression from what I was saying, I think perhaps I'm not expressing myself well. There are many themes and stories from the Old Testament, and the themes are meant to be compatible with all religions. The Brothers of my Lodge are probably mostly Christian, but my town has a lot of Jewish folks and there are many, many Jewish members as well. I don't think we have any Wiccans or Muslims, but those faiths are represented among Masons as well. But again, we don't talk about religion in Lodge. We pray, our rituals have religious overtones and significance, much of it has its roots in Old Testament stories, but the Masons are not a religious organization. I guess it's sort of hard to explain.

[Redwing]

Why does the meme that Freemasonry is equivalent to Baal worship persist? If you google "Freemasonry Baal Worship" you come up with some...interesting results.

Like this one, for instance: http://www.bloomington.in.us/~lgthscac/freemasonry.htm

I only skimmed it, but it appears that the issue these guys have with Freemasonry is that Masons equivocate all religions, while pretending to be Christians. Or something. Can you make any logic of this cite and these accusations in general?

If it is a Christian-based fraternity like you say it is (and you're a Catholic to boot), why all this other nonsense? Smear campaign by fear-mongers?

We're not a Christian fraternity. We require belief in a [monotheistic] god, but Muslims and Jews are easily accepted, and there has been some local argument about Wiccans and Hindus. The main argument I've heard about Wiccans is that's very hard to tell a serious Wiccan from someone who doesn't have any real faith and is merely trying to be different. Hindus, we simply didn't know enough about as group to talk about.

The rumors about what Masons "really believe" stem from us keeping our rituals closed to the public, and our oaths not to reveal certain things. To a certain type of mind anything that is kept secret is only kept secret because it's evil; to another type of mind making grand claims is great way to get attention.

The website you posted seems to take issue with anything vaguely ecumenical, and Masonry is not vague in its openness to people of faith. There is certainly something Universalist in Masonry's approach to matters of faith, we believe that a Catholic, a Jew, a Lutheran, and a Muslim can each make themselves better men, and together they can make the world a better place.

[Bricker]

The Knights is (are?) a copy of Masonry designed to let good Catholic men do secret handshakes without endangering their souls.

Undoubtedly that was much of the motivation for the K of C's founder.

But today, the Knights of Columbus are very parish-centric, and work closely with the church they support as well as with the community. I'm not a Mason. I am a Knight, a Past Grand Knight, Former District Deputy, and Past Faithful Navigator.

When I was Grand Knight, we did a number of "co-fraternal" events with our local Masonic lodge. "Mason-Knight Night." In talking to my opposite number, the Worshipful Master, it seemed that much of the day-to-day headaches we had in keeping our organizations running and steered correctly was similar, but while we had very similar desires and initiatives in youth programs, family activities, community support, and council/lodge fraternal support, the K of C also took a very active role in parish support and programs, and there didn't seem to be a parallel on the lodge's side for that.

[Paul in Qatar]

I am sure you are right. The KoC seems very oriented to the local bishop and priest. At a street festival over the summer, I saw a stand by the KoC so I stopped to say hey to the two (very old) knights. I mentioned I am a Mason and one of them said he was not allowed to talk to me.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

I've looked into the Rotary but they meet during the work day for some reason. Ah well.

The Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_International) may be incorrect or outdated, but it appears that membership is by invitation only. Moreover, it appears that the target demographic is independent professionals, or people high enough in their companies that they do not need to ask a superior for time off work, or justify it to anyone but themselves. In 1905, when the organization was founded, the scheme was for local clubs to "rotate" their meetings among the members' offices; I think in those days you had to be pretty high up in a corporate type job for you to have an office.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

I am sure you are right. The KoC seems very oriented to the local bishop and priest. Indeed; once or twice I've seen the Knights participating in some ceremony; I think it was guarding the shrine or other holy object, rather than the person of the bishop. IIRC it was the funeral of a well-remembered nun, with the local cardinal officiating.

[Bricker]

I am sure you are right. The KoC seems very oriented to the local bishop and priest. At a street festival over the summer, I saw a stand by the KoC so I stopped to say hey to the two (very old) knights. I mentioned I am a Mason and one of them said he was not allowed to talk to me.

If he didn't have a grin on his face as he said it, then he's very much mistaken; as I mentioned above, as the chief executive officer of my Knights council, not only did I talk to Masons, I organized joint group activities with them.

I like to think there's a bit of humor in the old rivalry between the organizations; when our parish dedicated the new activities center several years ago, I was part of the K of C honor guard for the ceremony. The ceremony included the placing of the ceremonial cornerstone for the building, and we were delayed while waiting for the tradesman who was going to set and mortar the stone. At one point Fr. Ley said, "We can't start until the mason arrives," and I said, with mock outrage, "Father, what do you need with a mason? You have the K of C right here!"

Yeah, hilarious, eh? :)

Anyway, if the elderly Knight you saw was serious, that's quite a shame.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

I've looked into the Rotary but they meet during the work day for some reason. Ah well.I was a member of Rotary for a short time (I couldn't deal with all the cash penalties*). I lived in the east San Francisco Bay area then, and there were four Rotary clubs within easy driving distance. They all met different days at different times. Two met for breakfast, if I recall correctly, and the other two at lunch. It made it really easy to find one that fit your schedule.

*One of the prime fundraisers for Rotary seems to be fines. If your name appears in a newspaper or magazine, five bucks. If you miss a meeting, ten bucks. I can't remember what they all were, but it was bleeding me dry--especially the first one. I'm a writer, dammit. My name's in newspapers and magazines constantly.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

If he didn't have a grin on his face as he said it, then he's very much mistaken; as I mentioned above, as the chief executive officer of my Knights council, not only did I talk to Masons, I organized joint group activities with them.


Anyway, if the elderly Knight you saw was serious, that's quite a shame. Is it possible that different bishops set out different rules about this, in their own dioceses?

[Bricker]

Is it possible that different bishops set out different rules about this, in their own dioceses?


It's true that Catholics remain forbidden to join a Masonic order. But there is no rule forbidding them from speaking to a member of a Masonic order, and while an individual bishop has legislative authority within his diocese, extending a prohibition that far would be dramatic indeed.

So it's possible, in the sense of "technically" possible. But it would surprise me mightily to learn that were the case.

[luvrbcs]

What are the home visits like? What are they looking for? How common is it to be turned down?

I just started, literally, I just filled out the Membership Information Request Form to find out where I send my petition and I don't know what to expect.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Masonry is not a "Christian-based fraternity". If you got that impression from what I was saying, I think perhaps I'm not expressing myself well. There are many themes and stories from the Old Testament, and the themes are meant to be compatible with all religions. The Brothers of my Lodge are probably mostly Christian, but my town has a lot of Jewish folks and there are many, many Jewish members as well. I don't think we have any Wiccans or Muslims, but those faiths are represented among Masons as well. But again, we don't talk about religion in Lodge. We pray, our rituals have religious overtones and significance, much of it has its roots in Old Testament stories, but the Masons are not a religious organization. I guess it's sort of hard to explain.

We're not a Christian fraternity. We require belief in a [monotheistic] god, but Muslims and Jews are easily accepted, and there has been some local argument about Wiccans and Hindus. The main argument I've heard about Wiccans is that's very hard to tell a serious Wiccan from someone who doesn't have any real faith and is merely trying to be different. Hindus, we simply didn't know enough about as group to talk about.

The rumors about what Masons "really believe" stem from us keeping our rituals closed to the public, and our oaths not to reveal certain things. To a certain type of mind anything that is kept secret is only kept secret because it's evil; to another type of mind making grand claims is great way to get attention.

The website you posted seems to take issue with anything vaguely ecumenical, and Masonry is not vague in its openness to people of faith. There is certainly something Universalist in Masonry's approach to matters of faith, we believe that a Catholic, a Jew, a Lutheran, and a Muslim can each make themselves better men, and together they can make the world a better place.

So a key tenet in terms of membership is a collectivism regarding all religions, in a sense. Which would explain why fundamentalist Christians are so up in arms about your group, cuz you know, you accept as members people that are "other" than a Christian faith.

Is that accurate?

[Winston Smith]

What are the home visits like? What are they looking for? How common is it to be turned down?

I just started, literally, I just filled out the Membership Information Request Form to find out where I send my petition and I don't know what to expect.

They didn't actually visit me at home, so I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing they just want to make sure you live where you say you do, and that you live in a don't actually live in a crack house or something. My Lodge had an applicant a few years ago whos home address couldn't be confirmed - he was rejected. I think the idea behind it is to make sure you have a stable home that you take care of, both of which are sort of indirect prerequisites to taking the Degrees.

I don't think it's very common to be turned down, but this initial investigation is intended to make sure you are who you say you are, and that you're a good man.

Instead of a home visit, I had to provide 9 (yes, nine) references: 3 neighbors, 3 friends and 3 business associates. They called every one of them. When they called my best friend, Chris, they asked him what he thought about me joining the Masons, and he said "I think it will be good for him". The investigator said "Why? Does he have flaws?" and my buddy said "Yeah. Don't we all? He was saying he needed to get out more, and didn't want to sit around in barrooms, and thought the Masons would be really good for him". We both thought that whole "Does he have flaws?" thing was sort of funny, but I guess the guy has a job to do and he was doing it. I never asked my other references about the calls, so I don't know what sort of questions were asked, but I'm guessing it's just general "What sort of a man is Winston? Good friend? Good neighbor?" etc.

You may find that the process to get to initiation takes several months. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions down the road and it's too late to resurrect this thread.

[Winston Smith]

So a key tenet in terms of membership is a collectivism regarding all religions, in a sense. Which would explain why fundamentalist Christians are so up in arms about your group, cuz you know, you accept as members people that are "other" than a Christian faith.

Is that accurate?

No exactly. A requirement of membership is belief in a higher power. But beyond that, it's don't ask, don't tell. They aren't really interested in what God you believe in, only that you believe.

The religiosity within the Lodge is pretty generic Old Testament-type stuff, that seems like it's every bit as compatible with Christianity as it is with Judaism. I presume and based on what I've been told, compatible with the Muslim belief structure as well.

[Redwing]

So a key tenet in terms of membership is a collectivism regarding all religions, in a sense. Which would explain why fundamentalist Christians are so up in arms about your group, cuz you know, you accept as members people that are "other" than a Christian faith.

Is that accurate?

Well, sort of. As a fraternity, we want members who believe in [a] god. We don't care which god. Our stories are based (loosely) on the Old Testament, but don't much feature direct deific intervention. Some of the appendant bodies require a particular faith, but Blue Lodge (basic) Masonry does not. If you ask three Masons why belief in [a] god is required, you'll get five different answers.

As an organization we have a Universalist bent, in that we believe that there is [a] god, but that we (as an organization) do not know the exact form that the deity takes. We're perfectly comfortable if Brother Bill and Brother Todd both believe the other is going to hell, as long as they get along in the lodge and are willing to work together in any task the lodge asks them to undertake.

If your brand of god tells you that anyone who talks about god, but isn't of your brand is actually the devil; well, Masonry probably isn't for you.

They didn't actually visit me at home, so I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing they just want to make sure you live where you say you do, and that you live in a don't actually live in a crack house or something. My Lodge had an applicant a few years ago whos home address couldn't be confirmed - he was rejected. I think the idea behind it is to make sure you have a stable home that you take care of, both of which are sort of indirect prerequisites to taking the Degrees.

I don't think it's very common to be turned down, but this initial investigation is intended to make sure you are who you say you are, and that you're a good man.

[snip]

You may find that the process to get to initiation takes several months. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions down the road and it's too late to resurrect this thread.

To illustrate the differences in lodges, I'm pretty sure Winston and myself are subject to the same Grand Lodge (Massachusetts), but I had a home visit from two brothers, though I don't recall having anywhere near nine references. The home visit was pretty informal, they wanted to meet me and my wife, and talk to us about what being Mason entailed. Talking to spouses and significant others is important to my lodge, we don't want to be a disruption to family life, and to let the spouse know that we're just a bunch of ordinary guys. We don't like turning people down, and my lodge tends to believe that any concerns should be dealt with before the candidate reaches the voting stage. (I was told, after I was raised, that one of the senior members of the lodge had wanted to know why a eunuch wanted to be a Mason. Explaining my job to him was the last controversy I recall candidate facing in my lodge).

I'm also open to being PMed if any one has any questions.

[Winston Smith]

I decided over the weekend to resurrect this thread, because I've experienced many things which were previously discussed herein.

To recap...

I've been a Master Mason for 14 months now. I was invited and have become a junior officer of the Lodge (I can explain a little more about this later if anyone is interested). Some of what I have experienced first hand were asked about when I first ran this thread, so I'm going to re-read it, pick out the handful of posts I wanted to re-respond to, and give any newcomers a chance to participate in what I think to be a pretty interesting topic of discussion.

BTW, I may know more about Freemasonry, but I'm still almost completely ignorant of Mormonism. While I am aware that the founder of Mormonism was indeed a Mason, and appears to have "borrowed" some of the ritual, secrecy &Etc. from Masonry, that's pretty much all I know. Just wanted to get that out there, because from a quick scan of the last page of this thread it looks like that was the highlight topic. I'd prefer to keep the discussion and Q/A on Masonry.

[OtisCampbellWasRight]

Welcome Brother Winston!

I am a Past master of my Lodge, and a Past Patron of my Eastern Star Chapter. I have taken the 32nd degrees in both the York and Scottish Rites. I have to tell you that you have fielded these question remarkably well for someone relatively new to Masonry. I was raised in 1997, and I consider it one of the best choices I ever made. Freemasonry is like so many other aspects of your life: you get out of it a reward proportional to your commitment to it.

I can offer this insight, though, regarding the "secrecy" aspects of the craft: We are NOT a secret society, we are a society with secrets. Moreover, our secrets; which are indeed available to someone willing to spend a few minutes on the internet, don't mean much outside the context of the degree work. We like to keep them secret for the same reason that you gift wrap a present to someone; not to ruin the surprise.

Human nature being what it is, people will ALWAYS think you're up to something nefarious if you do it behind closed doors.

Keep enjoying Masonry and keep up the good, square work!

[Winston Smith]

Welcome Brother Winston!

I am a Past master of my Lodge, and a Past Patron of my Eastern Star Chapter. I have taken the 32nd degrees in both the York and Scottish Rites. I have to tell you that you have fielded these question remarkably well for someone relatively new to Masonry. I was raised in 1997, and I consider it one of the best choices I ever made. Freemasonry is like so many other aspects of your life: you get out of it a reward proportional to your commitment to it.

I can offer this insight, though, regarding the "secrecy" aspects of the craft: We are NOT a secret society, we are a society with secrets. Moreover, our secrets; which are indeed available to someone willing to spend a few minutes on the internet, don't mean much outside the context of the degree work. We like to keep them secret for the same reason that you gift wrap a present to someone; not to ruin the surprise.

Human nature being what it is, people will ALWAYS think you're up to something nefarious if you do it behind closed doors.

Keep enjoying Masonry and keep up the good, square work!

Thank you for the complement! I have good teachers!

[california jobcase]

Massachusetts Masons drink beer after lodge?

Alcohol and dancing are forbidden inside a lodge building down here in Georgia. We do make awesome barbecue for sale twice a year, however.

Past Master, 2004

[Argent Towers]

(I was told, after I was raised, that one of the senior members of the lodge had wanted to know why a eunuch wanted to be a Mason. Explaining my job to him was the last controversy I recall candidate facing in my lodge).

I gotta know what this is all about....

[Alan Smithee]

I decided over the weekend to resurrect this thread, because I've experienced many things which were previously discussed herein.I've heard of Scottish Rite and York Rite. This is Haitian Rite? :p

[etv78]

What do you make of the paranoia people seem to have around Masons/Masonry?

[OtisCampbellWasRight]

etv: Like I said above, whenever you do something behind closed doors, people will think you are scheming something.

While movies like "National Treasure" and to a lesser extent "From Hell" have renewed interest in our fraternity, and given us more public visibility, they have also dragged up the anti-Masonic sentiments of a century ago.

We are NOT a religion, nor do we try to be. In fact, most jurisdictions forbid conversations of a religious nature in lodge, as this may serve to disrupt the peace and harmony of the Lodge. The creators of Freemason simply saw the value of respecting the spiritual points of view of others (tolerance) and tried to incororate this into our paradigm. You may have heard the old saying that you never discuss politics or religion in a bar - this is why.

The "physical defect" provision is merely a guideline too. I personally raised a candidate with a prosthetic leg.

In our time, the Masonic fraternity serves as a largely social vehicle that also allows the Brothers to perform acts of charity via strength in numbers. Many of the "lessons" we are taught in Lodge are sound, common-sense precepts aimed at helping society at large.

[Winston Smith]

I, too, can personally attest to the "physical defect" provision not being a deal breaker with regard to initiation. I participated in the initiation of a guy with two prosthetic legs about 8 months ago, and we're initiating a guy with one prosthetic leg now. I couldn't imagine turning a guy away because he was unable to participate in the physical parts of the initiation.

[Winston Smith]

I gotta know what this is all about....

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess he's a UNIX Systems Administrator.

[Winston Smith]

A couple of questions:

1. What's the difference between a Job's Daughter and a Rainbow Girl? Is it an age thing? They're both Masonic offshoots, right?

2. Do you guys have DeMolay? If so, do they ever serve tables? I don't mean to try to find sexism where none exists, but it seems a little weird that the young girls are serving a bunch of guys (especially if the boys never do it).

This was specifically one of the things I wanted to revisit when I decided to bump this thread. To set the context: one element of our monthly meeting is dinner in our hall. It's typically a pretty complete meal: cheese and crackers with soft drinks, then rolls & butter and salad, then the main meal (this month we had roast beef with green bean casserole and mashed potatoes) (chicken alternative meal), then dessert (ice cream with chocolate sauce and whipped cream). It is all plated at the kitchen window and served by the Rainbow Girls.

After the meal, baskets are placed on the tables and we pony up a couple bucks for tips, which are then counted, deposited, and presented to the Rainbow Girls organization to fund the stuff they do (charitable works, etc.)

A few months ago, the Rainbow Girls had their Big Yearly Meeting, and the guys from my Lodge cooked for them, served them, and provided security (the Lodge was in the city). Just last month, they were our guests for dinner and we served them again. So, it's not a sexist thing, as far as I can tell. Also, I frequently assist in serving our meals, and cleaning up. I've observed our Worshipful Master (Grand Poobah) doing dishes in his Tuxedo after our meeting was over because the kitchen was short-staffed and help was needed.

I guess my point is that we all work together to everyone's mutual benefit, and the girls don't serve us meals so we can make them subservient to us - we serve them when the circumstances dictate it.

[Damfino]

Why does the meme that Freemasonry is equivalent to Baal worship persist? If you google "Freemasonry Baal Worship" you come up with some...interesting results.

Like this one, for instance: http://www.bloomington.in.us/~lgthscac/freemasonry.htm


I only skimmed it, but it appears that the issue these guys have with Freemasonry is that Masons equivocate all religions, while pretending to be Christians. Or something. Can you make any logic of this cite and these accusations in general?

If it is a Christian-based fraternity like you say it is (and you're a Catholic to boot), why all this other nonsense? Smear campaign by fear-mongers?

Freemasonry has been present in India since around 1727. The first Indian Mason, a Muslim, was inducted in 1775 or therabouts. The first Hindu was inducted in 1857. The Grand Lodge of India was formed in 1961 with parent Grand Lodges being those of England, Ireland and Scotland. There are several hundred lodges, with membership representing all religions.

At the altar are placed the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Sikh Guru Granth and the Parsi Zend Avesta.

Ironically a Christian member of the Lodge of which I am aware was forced to resign because his wife believed that Freemasons worship the Devil. (This Lodge does not have home visits.)

[DarrenS]

Have you ever seen this documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1bHBthJN9w)? :D

[septimus]

(I hope it's not considered unmannerly to bump an old thread like this.)

Was it common for American men in 19th century to convert to Episcopalianism when they became Freemasons? (This question derives from something I read recently.)

Another question: Would lodges be likely to have interesting info on members from 100 years ago or so, and if so, would it be likely they would share the info?

[ralph124c]

Is there any connection between Freemasonry and tyhe (secretive) fraternity "Skull and Bones"?

[TriPolar]

Do people laugh at you a lot?

[chowching]

A couple of questions:

1. What's the difference between a Job's Daughter and a Rainbow Girl? Is it an age thing? They're both Masonic offshoots, right?

2. Do you guys have DeMolay? If so, do they ever serve tables? I don't mean to try to find sexism where none exists, but it seems a little weird that the young girls are serving a bunch of guys (especially if the boys never do it).

I think you should have a relative who is a Freemason for you to join Job's Daughter. For Rainbow I think the requirements are just similar to those of DeMolay. You'd have to be 13-21 y/o.

We boys do serve our Dad Masons too. We help set tables during their gatherings. We participate in their fund raising activities. We assist in anyway we can. Job's Daughters, Rainbow Girls, DeMolays all do that.

Hi Dad Winston. :)

[spankthecrumpet]

Remind me... what were the names of the pillars on the porchway of king solomon's temple again? ;)

[Dorjän]

What's the deal with Prince Hall Masons?

[Steken]

What do you make of the paranoia people seem to have around Masons/Masonry?

About this, and the whole "Baal-worship" and "Masonic Satanism" ("Palladism")-thing generally, here's the straight dope:

A LOT of that nonsense (because it is nonsense) comes from nothing less than the world's greatest practical joke.

Here goes: A French dude called Léo Taxil announced in 1885 that he had infilitrated a Masonic lodge and discovered some shocking secrets, to wit: "Sacré bleu, they’re all Satanists! They worship the Devil! No, really! And the Devil himself is present at their rituals! And they have a crocodile playing a piano! Blah blah! Yakitiyak!"

The entire Catholic world soon got its knickers in a twist, Taxil even got an audience with the Pope in Rome, and it wasn't long before the whole world had heard the shocking news.

After somehow managing to keep his face straight for more than a decade (!), Taxil finally bursted out laughing in 1897, and blew the lid off his own hoax, announcing to the world in the craziest press conference in history (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/taxil_confessed.html) that the whole thing had been one big massive practical joke, basically for shits and giggles and maybe also to prove that Catholics can be pretty damn gullible sometimes. (But mostly for shits and giggles.)

Even after Taxil admitted that it had all been a hoax, however, certain idiots kept repeating the “OMG Masons are totally Satanists you guys!!!11” meme, and lo and behold, even today, more than a hundred years later, the story just refuses to die.

True story (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canular_de_Taxil).

[LouisB]

Welcome to the club Brother Winston Smith!
The same welcome from me.

[LouisB]

I didn't realize this is an old thread so my congratulations were way past due. I did mean it, though.

[spankthecrumpet]

What are the five points of fellowship?

How hilarious is it that the j-word isn't jahbulon, but it is actually another j-word that everyone knows?

[chowching]

What do you make of the paranoia people seem to have around Masons/Masonry?
Here in our country where religion (Roman Catholic) is a big part of the lives of majority of the people, I often hear some say that Freemasons are anti-Christ etc. I think it is because long ago during the Spanish regime here, when the Church and the State is one, most of the famous guys who fought for freedom are Freemasons. Just my theory though. And then there's the verse from the Bible. Ephesians 5:11-12 I think.

[GiantRat]

What are the home visits like? What are they looking for? How common is it to be turned down?

I just started, literally, I just filled out the Membership Information Request Form to find out where I send my petition and I don't know what to expect.

My home visit was easy. They showed up, we sat down in the living room and BS'd for a while. There are certain things that they need to verify (belief in a deity, financial stability, freedom from coercion, etc - much like getting interviewed for a security clearance). Mostly, we just shot the breeze and had a few laughs.

No big deal.

[Czarcasm]

My home visit was easy. They showed up, we sat down in the living room and BS'd for a while. There are certain things that they need to verify (belief in a deity, financial stability, freedom from coercion, etc - much like getting interviewed for a security clearance). Mostly, we just shot the breeze and had a few laughs.

No big deal.That's o.k.-I'm pretty sure he already has this information on hand...considering he asked it three years ago. :D

[Osiris the 1st]

My best friend is an athiest, and when I told him I was joining he said pretty much what has been expressed here - he'd like to join, but the whole requirement for belief in a higher power thing just didn't work for him.

While I consider myself an athiest, I certainly concede the existence of a higher power, just not a conscious higher power. Nature/the universe has laws which govern all of existence and led to the rise of life on Earth (and most likely elswhere) and it evolution to all of its myriad forms. Would this be acceptable or would the fact that I don't believe in a deity per se be a disqualifier?

[Boyo Jim]

My home visit was easy. They showed up, we sat down in the living room and BS'd for a while. There are certain things that they need to verify (belief in a deity, financial stability, freedom from coercion, etc - much like getting interviewed for a security clearance). Mostly, we just shot the breeze and had a few laughs.

No big deal.

How does someone verify belief in a deity? Are the looking for crosses on your walls? Altars in a side room? Do they ask you again and implore their god to strike you with lightning if you lie?

[Mona Lisa Simpson]

Q. How many Masons does it take to change a light bulb?
A. After much research this tricky question can now be answered. It takes 20, as follows:

2 to complain that the light doesn't work.
1 to pass the problem to either another committee, the Temple Board or the Master of the Lodge.
3 to do a study on light in the Lodge.
2 to check out the types of lights the Knights of Columbus use.
3 to argue about it.
5 to plan a fund-raising dinner to raise money for the bulb.
2 to complain that "that′s not the way we did it before."
1 to borrow a ladder, donate the bulb and install it.
1 to order the brass memorial plate and have it inscribed.


As the daughter of a Mason, Scottish Rite mason, and Shriner I have to heartily agree with this joke. My dad actually quit the executive of his local Shrine because and I quote "All the BS politics by old farts". It is telling that only now at age 70 after 30+ years in Lodges of various kinds, he is not one of the Young Turks.

To the OP, congratulations, and it makes me happy that people are still joining the Lodges. My hub is thinking vaugely of joining K of C, (its a catholic fraternity) and I'm kinda trying to kick his butt that direction.

My time is not my own at the moment so Eastern Star, etc is out for me.

[BubbaDog]

How does someone verify belief in a deity? Are the looking for crosses on your walls? Altars in a side room? Do they ask you again and implore their god to strike you with lightning if you lie?

Maybe they just asked him if he believed. Seems pretty straightforward.

[Winston Smith]

While I consider myself an athiest, I certainly concede the existence of a higher power, just not a conscious higher power. Nature/the universe has laws which govern all of existence and led to the rise of life on Earth (and most likely elswhere) and it evolution to all of its myriad forms. Would this be acceptable or would the fact that I don't believe in a deity per se be a disqualifier?

No, it wouldn't necessarily disqualify you, but Masonry is interwoven with religion. We read passages from the Bible, say prayers, etc. If you find that sort of stuff offensive or something, you probably wouldn't like Masonry.

[Winston Smith]

How does someone verify belief in a deity? Are the looking for crosses on your walls? Altars in a side room? Do they ask you again and implore their god to strike you with lightning if you lie?

We press a cross, a star of david, and an ankh to your forehead. If any of them burst into flames, we know you're an athiest.

[Winston Smith]

As the daughter of a Mason, Scottish Rite mason, and Shriner I have to heartily agree with this joke. My dad actually quit the executive of his local Shrine because and I quote "All the BS politics by old farts". It is telling that only now at age 70 after 30+ years in Lodges of various kinds, he is not one of the Young Turks.

To the OP, congratulations, and it makes me happy that people are still joining the Lodges. My hub is thinking vaugely of joining K of C, (its a catholic fraternity) and I'm kinda trying to kick his butt that direction.

My time is not my own at the moment so Eastern Star, etc is out for me.

When I first expressed an interest in becoming a Mason, my Grandmother told me that, as a Catholic, becoming a Mason was forbidden and that I'd be excommunicated. That didn't bother me all that much, as I was never a very good Catholic to begin with, but it did upset my Grandmother, so I joined the KofC instead. And I didn't like it. Not one bit. I went through initiation, afterwards some guy tried to sell me life insurance (I was about 22 at the time) and I never set foot in the KofC again. I thought it was all a big scam to sell insurance. :smack:

[Mona Lisa Simpson]

As for the whole screening process when you apply, although I was a pre-teen when my Dad joined up, it seemed that everyone and anyone he knew that was already a Mason came to kind of say hi and kinda *wink wink nudge nudge* a bit. People would come up to him in grocery stores and say things like "Oh I hear you want to go to that place on Red River road on Tuesday nights... Yeah I will see you there." type things.

To a twelve year old girl it all seemed very mysterious, but Lodge has been (still is) a big part of Dad's life and I am glad he joined.
Knowing Shriners from the mid west is a totally other thing.. I get forwarded jokes that his Shriner friends send him that are vulgar and Republican (we're Canadian! I don't want to hear rants about American issues!) in slant. I used to ask him not to send them, now I just bite my tongue and hit delete. But I know a lot more kind-hearted community oriented Shriners than I know bigots, so I deal.

[Alan Smithee]

No, it wouldn't necessarily disqualify you, but Masonry is interwoven with religion. We read passages from the Bible, say prayers, etc. If you find that sort of stuff offensive or something, you probably wouldn't like Masonry.If a Muslim joined your lodge, would you alternate with readings from the Koran? You and others have said that Muslims may and have joined, I'm just curious how it works. Damfino said that in Indian lodges, they place scriptures from all the major Indian faiths on the alter, but in an American lodge, how would you decide which faiths to represent?

[sisu]

If a Muslim joined your lodge, would you alternate with readings from the Koran? You and others have said that Muslims may and have joined, I'm just curious how it works. Damfino said that in Indian lodges, they place scriptures from all the major Indian faiths on the alter, but in an American lodge, how would you decide which faiths to represent?

In Australia its any holy book of choice normally the Bible, a bit irrelevant really what book is chosen as its all one God in the view of us silly Aussies.

[Winston Smith]

If a Muslim joined your lodge, would you alternate with readings from the Koran? You and others have said that Muslims may and have joined, I'm just curious how it works. Damfino said that in Indian lodges, they place scriptures from all the major Indian faiths on the alter, but in an American lodge, how would you decide which faiths to represent?

No, the ritual and prayers are Old Testament type stuff, but they would take their obligations on a Koran if they want to.

[LawMonkey]

I seem to recall, ages ago, my dad saying something about African-Americans not being admitted into the regular old F&AM due to a rather dubious interprestation of the requirement of being "free" having to do with slavery. And that there were separate-but-equal lodges (Prince George?) for blacks. Is/was there any truth to this?

[Winston Smith]

I seem to recall, ages ago, my dad saying something about African-Americans not being admitted into the regular old F&AM due to a rather dubious interprestation of the requirement of being "free" having to do with slavery. And that there were separate-but-equal lodges (Prince George?) for blacks. Is/was there any truth to this?

Prince Hall was a black guy, made a Mason in Boston back in the late 1700s. Masonry doesn't descrimitate, but unfortunately some Masons do, and "Prince Hall Masonry" was born. A Prince Hall Lodge is predominantly made up of Black guys. One of the Brothers at my Lodge also happens to be a Prince Hall Mason.

Being black doesn't mean you have to join a Prince Hall Lodge, though. Many or most Masonic Lodges are community-based, but there are also "themed membership" Lodges as well. Boston College Alumni Lodge (self-explanatory), Prince Hall (explained above) and Daylight Lodge (meets on weekday mornings instead of evenings) are just a few examples.

[GiantRat]

How does someone verify belief in a deity? Are the looking for crosses on your walls? Altars in a side room? Do they ask you again and implore their god to strike you with lightning if you lie?

No. Nothing like that. For one thing, you don't need to be Christian - just believe in a god. We did chat for a while about me being raised Catholic, but it wasn't an inquisition or anything. Ultimately, for me, my response was (and is), that most organized religions are representative and that the symbolism associated with Freemasonry is appealing to me; the recognition that we accept as symbolic makes it more valid to me.

There's really no way to verify one's faith... but you do take what I'll call an "oath" (not the word we use). If one were to be a straight-up liar on this point, it would become apparent pretty quickly. And, of course, there are penalties (mostly symbolic).

[GiantRat]

No, it wouldn't necessarily disqualify you, but Masonry is interwoven with religion. We read passages from the Bible, say prayers, etc. If you find that sort of stuff offensive or something, you probably wouldn't like Masonry.

Hmmm... where I'm from, atheism would definitely disqualify you. It's actually amusing during the preliminary chats because folks have become so sensitive to asking about religion. So it's kind of like, "Ummm.... we have to ask this. You know belief in a deity is a requirement right? Do you have a problem with that? If so, there are other organizations out there that aren't Masonic, but... ummm... y'know, they're not Masonic...." To which I kind of laughed and just pointed out that I was an altar boy, went to Catholic school (and yes, the Catholic Church is now okay with Freemasons - it just took a while for us to get along), etc.

I find it interesting how different the different Grand Lodges can be. Very much a parallel of the structure of the US government (more as outlined under the Articles of Confederation, but still).

[GiantRat]

If a Muslim joined your lodge, would you alternate with readings from the Koran? You and others have said that Muslims may and have joined, I'm just curious how it works. Damfino said that in Indian lodges, they place scriptures from all the major Indian faiths on the alter, but in an American lodge, how would you decide which faiths to represent?

In my Lodge, you can take your obligation on whatever (religious) book you like, but we still call it the Bible. And you must refer to the correct Saints (which isn't really a religion thing - it's a tribute to the character of those Saints). There are most definitely strong Christian overtones to the whole thing, but the Brothers I've encountered of different faiths don't take issue with it. It's not Jesus worship; it's more like god-acknowledgement being used to cement our mutual commitments to ourselves, our countries, and our faiths.

That said, if you decided to swear in on something like the Satanic Bible or something, we'd probably tell yourself to take a hike. But Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, and many others are perfectly acceptable and respected. To repeat what I think was mentioned earlier - we don't discuss religion (beyond "I was raised Methodist," or whatever). It's a factor in our rituals, but we don't debate. There is a very strong emphasis placed upon not creating disharmony in the Lodge.

[Melbourne]

In the famous Kipling story ("The Man Who Would Be King"). the newspaper man is relaying a message from Daniel Dravott, to Peachy Carnahan.
He is asked to identify himself-and he replies "for the sake of the widow's son"-is this a Masonic identification?

It is a Masonic reference, but it's not Kipling. It's from a movie version. [At a different point in the story] Kipling was both more and less obscure:

“From the East,” said he, “and I am hoping that you will give him the message on the Square—for the sake of my Mother as well as your own.”


... but he went on to clarify that by writing:
but for certain reasons, which will be fully apparent, I saw fit to agree.


-- and then writing a story featuring the use/abuse of Masonic ritual.

"Hiram Abiff", the Widows Son, is a symbolic archtype in a Masonic teaching tale. Masons are encouraged to emulate his qualities: that is, fraternal, reliable, honest etc.