Random Mafia

[Mahaloth]

I think this is the right current vote count, folks. We have a tie for the lead again, unless I've missed something.


Chronos (4): Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger, Guiri

Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986

Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941

TexCat (2): Tom Scud 969, Meeko 982

Oredigger(1) - special ed

[Tom Scud]

Sorry, guys. I'm exhausted.

This is a pure self-defense vote: I know I'm town, and I don't know that Chronos is. And I just got home after getting on the wrong frigging train, and I need to get supper put together, so I'm just going to make it:

unvote TexCat
vote Chronos.

[MHaye]

So far it's been a quiet Day, if not without a bit of interest.

On the two deaths.

I personally am working on the assumption that Storyteller was our Cop. Basically, given his expressed opinion of the damage lying Townies do to their own side, and taking into account his recent softening in the direction of “there may be the occasional good reason for a townie to lie,” I do not believe that Storyteller would lie about his rolename if he were vanilla Town. I can see him lying if he got a rolename that points straight to his in-game role, particularly if that game role is the number 1 target for the Infiltrators in the early game.

The two deaths last Night don't reduce our available mislynches, as far as I can tell (as far as I know Sach has said that there are no third party players, but I couldn't find the post.) Assuming for illustrative purposes that there are five Infiltrators, that means the Infiltrators need to force five more Town deaths; at this point that means three mislynches and two Nightkills. If there had been only one death last Night, they would need to force six deaths, which means three Nightkills in addition to the three lynches. Varying the number of Infiltrators only changes the number of Day/Night cycles needed for the Infiltrators to win.

On to more recent events; I did not like Oredigger's post 990. It made my teeth itch. He seems to be saying that he'll vote for Chronos despite finding nothing.

He explains in post 993 that he meant he couldn't find anything in the first two Days to support the pings he'd felt over the issues of Today. I think I want to review Chronos's posts Today (and Yesterday) to judge that for myself before deciding if this is a bad vote, but I have to say first impressions are not favourable.

I'll have to leave the Chronos review until tomorrow, when I'll have a few hours to play in. (I had to spend most of today writing a job application instead, since the competition closes tomorrow.)

[Jimmy Chitwood]

I guess I should get my vote in now rather than take a chance on being unavailable at crunch time.

I'm still not sure about Oredigger. It was a horrible play and he deserves to be heavily scrutinized, but I still can't answer my own question, which is whether having made that decision makes him any more likely to be scum. I really think I made a mistake going after Wanderers and in retrospect I see a lot of wisdom in Chronos and storyteller having said that his were the responses of a frustrated any-kind-of-player. Obviously that doesn't actually serve to inform me much about this case but I was hoping for some help on that point.

The only other meaningful places to put my vote would be Chronos or Scud, at this point. My thoughts: Chronos gives me vaguely suspicious vibes pretty regularly in every game, just because of the way I read him, I guess. He's been no more or less like that in this game. storyteller was also suspicious and provided a few actual reasons, but not very compelling ones to my eye. All in all, I'm not into a Chronos lynch.

Tom Scud is kind of the opposite direction. I've generally felt pretty confident he was town in other games, but I've been lukewarm this time around (which is how I come to be making a post like this). I am one of those who thinks that the slip matters -- I really think that it's pretty inexplicable that a player's mind would wander toward a phrase like "overnight thread" if he had no reason to think of this game in terms of multiple threads. So I'm a slip believer, generally speaking. I was still lukewarm, but upon rereading the previous Day's interactions, I noticed this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289234&postcount=846) post, which I want to bring up for a couple of reasons:

Ok, having reviewed OneandOnly's posts, and Jimmy's relevant posts, I understand why people find 751 (his Jimmy vote post) suspicious. I think I'm reinventing the wheel here, but in any case reviewing the tapes:

(snip)

Anyway, I don't hate the One case. I don't think it's as good as the case on Freudian, but I'm not going to twist myself into pretzels to stop it either.

(Don't have time to go into it in detail, as this post got way longer than I wanted it to, but I also see story's case on Mahaloth as having merit; I'm a little leery of OMGUSing him for jumping to vote me as quickly as he did, but he and Freudian both jumped on the Peeker wagon in classic "me-too" form, and he's otherwise not stuck his neck out very far.)

First, he had already at this point voted Freudian. Yet as he says, he posted, reinventing the wheel, to bolster the case against Wanderers and lend his approval to that one as well. They were both strong lynch candidates. They were both town.

Now, if Tom is town, and he's looking at the way the lynch is developing and his vote is already on the books, maybe he thinks it's a good idea to give his thoughts on the candidate he isn't voting for. Maybe that's just a service he's performing; after all, it's nice to hear what others say and there's a real benefit to getting a little bit of encouragement. Maybe he thinks everyone could benefit from a retelling of the thought process that has led others, but not him, to vote for Wanderers. That's certainly possible, if unusual.

But the vote at this point is tied. If Tom isn't town, and he's looking at a tie between two townies with several votes still to come, the benefit is much clearer. If Tom can keep two pots bubbling at once, the chances are that much better than no suspicion gets cast on any scum at all, and everybody can hide in the ensuing dead heat between town and town. Read from this perspective, it's a hell of a time to suggest that gosh, both of these are really strong cases, I could go either way! It's also relatively safe to do so, since there are already reasons being given for each candidate, and after all, all Tom really did was explain what my reasoning was in the first place. Given the outcome, and given the fact that I really do think you can get something from a slip, I think I'm going to take my chances.

Vote Tom Scud

The other thing that I want to point out about the above post is that, if I'm reading all of this correctly (by some god damned miracle), and Tom is scum, I'm going to want to take a look at Mahaloth based on the old "make a list and throw a fellow scum on there just in case" rule.

[Rysto]

This case against Tom Scud is garbage.

Exhibit A (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12243279#post12243279)An early soft claim alluding to the 'townieness' of his name.
First of all, Tom was hardly the only person to drop a tidbit or two about his name before claiming. From memory, Freudian and Meeko both did it. Why are you after Tom but not Meeko for this? Second of all, not only have you failed to demonstrate scum motivation for this(and I'm basically despairing of getting people to see the light on this one), you haven't even explained why it's a pro-scum move in this case. How did this "soft claim" help a scummy Tom in a way that wouldn't have helped a townie Tom?

[/quote]Exhibit B] A bit of a smear on my former incarnation here[/quote]
Ah, "smear". That was one of my favourite words in Cecil Pond, where I was scum. The thing is, this is such an old scum tell that I bet that few players can even tell you why it was a scum tell back when it was first brought up. I think that it dates back to M3 or M4. Accusing somebody of smearing another player is a great way for a scum player to bolster a case by pointing at something that everybody does. Seriously, if you're Town and you're not pointing out things that make you suspicious, you're not playing this game properly. Smudges are a problem when a player is consistently smudging players who are under lynch pressure but they never back up their opinions with a vote. Merely stating an opinion isn't scummy. In fact, I'd say that it's the opposite. One of the things that I did in Cecil Pond was to be sure to avoid commenting on as many of the important storylines as I could. This gave me the flexibility to vote as would best benefit my team later on.

, but most importantly is what I consider may be an exploit of the 'eek'...some people get Meeko and Peeker, and some people don't. Even if you've 'gotten' either of them in one game, doesn't necessarily mean you'll 'get' them the next time around. Alignment usually has no bearings on who does and does not parse their styles of play. As such, they may offer scum some convenient leverage if a Townie happens to fall on the wrong side on the suspicion spectrum.

[url=http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12258493#post12258493]Exhibit C (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12252839#post12252839) On the flip side of the scum-would-know-peeker-was-town-and-use-it-to-their-advantage coin, despite using lack of understanding of Peeker against Texcat, he seems perfectly willing to embrace suspicions of Peeker here. The juxtaposition strikes me as someone who is trying to have their cake and eat it too.
Really? It strikes me as intellectual honesty. Chronos at least gave a rational explanation of why a scummy peeker could stand to gain by his claim-via-youtube, and Tom acknowledged the fact.

Exhibit D (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12260684&postcount=476)
Seems to arrive back at the conclusion that peeker is just misunderstood town, while being careful to say that he has no idea of peeker is scum or town. That's a lot of flip-flopping with respect to Peeker and he still seems to be allowing himself the flexibility to continue to flip-flop in case it comes in handy again, if he hadn't died and flipped Town. Contrast this behavior with a single-minded pursuit of Texcat consistently through the game, and I think it is interesting.
It's Day One, and you want certainty out of a player. Why is it more likely that Tom is scum looking to give himself flexibility in his vote than Tom is a townie who has no reason to be sure of anything? And what is so interesting about the contrast between Tom's opinion on TexCat and Tom's opinion on peeker? You keep pointing out things like this and implying that they're scummy, but you're never explaining why they're scummy. Why are these things more indicative of Tom being scum than Tom being Town? Even better, what's the scum motivation, and why is there no town motivation for these things?

It also leads me to Exhibit E (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265141&postcount=571) where he switches his vote from Texcat, who he still thinks is the scummiest, to my predecessor. It doesn't matter if your views are unpopular, Town should vote with their suspicions instead of muddying the voting history by joining a more popular bandwagon.
We could go on and on about the optimal voting strategy for townies, and I doubt that we'd ever come to a consensus, so outright stating that one way is best is pretty dubious to me. But I have to ask, does anybody really think that if I went through every game that Cookies has played as Town, that she has never once voted for somebody who had a chance of being lynched over her personal #1 suspect?

Exhibit G (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285342&postcount=783) Another vote change away from his favorite whipping horse, Texcat, this time onto a known townie-lynching bandwagon on Freudian.
Freudian wasn't lynched; OAOW was. And frankly, pointing out on Day 3 that a player voted for a single known Town player is really off. Vote analysis is once of the best tools we have -- but you have to demonstrate that a player is consistently voting in an anti-Town fashion, not that they voted for a townie once.


I have two take-aways from this post. The first is that Cookies has pointed to several things that Tom has done and either implied or outright stated that they are scummy. However, her case lacks any kind of analysis as to why the behavior is scummy. This gives the impression that her case is stronger than it really is, because she can put together a nice long post with a vote at the end and everybody things that her vote is well supported if they don't try and do the analysis that her case is lacking.

The second point is that there are many instances where Cookies construes actions on Tom's part as being definitely scummy. However, I think that I've demonstrated that in many of these instances, the actions only look scummy because of the spin Cookies has put into her case. It's just as easy to demonstrate town motivation for Tom's actions as scum motivations, but Cookies doesn't seem to be seeing that. She's clearly gone through her read of Tom with the assumption that Tom is scum, and is seeing all of his actions in that light. Now, I'd love to say that this is definitely indicative of scum. In a perfect world, townies would always be free of preconceived notions and would be able to see all possible motivations for all actions. Unfortunately that's just not the case. fluiddruid, who was town, fell into the trap of confirmation bias in Cecil Pond when she tried to build a case against story. However, I find this last bit extremely interesting:

Exhibit F (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12277014&postcount=706), the potential slip about a Night thread.

The word "potential" is just screaming out at me. Cookies has clearly seen all of Tom's posts through the filter that he is scum, and that's come out in the case she's tried to build. However, the word "potential" here indicates a very interesting perspective here. I would expect any townie who has convinced themselves that Tom must be scum and reads through his posts looking for things that confirm that to flip out over this kind of "slip". The last thing I'd expect them to do is say that it's potentially a slip. This indicates to me that the "Tom must be scum" filter that Cookies is seeing his posts through is not a result of confirmation bias. It tells me that she's conscientiously applying that filter, and slipped here with the caveat.

On preview, I see that Jimmy has put me in a bind. I've built this case against Cookies, but it's really too late for it to go anywhere and Cookies' votee is tied for the lead. I will be revisiting this toMorrow, but I believe that the best move at this point is to vote Chronos.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

I will definitely check the case out more thoroughly, Rysto. Kelly raised my hackles before departing so I'm not averse to looking into Cookies.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

NETA: although I will note that not liking a case against Tom doesn't mean Tom isn't scum, of course, nor does it mean that Cookies is scum even assuming that her case is garbage.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Fair point Tom's peeker flip-flopping being on Day 1.

When/how Freudian died doesn't make that vote switch any less "townie-lynching" in the meaning I intended when using that term.

I said potential slip because a scum player could have said such a thing while honestly and truthfully referring to the Night portion of the discussion in the game thread. I said potential because I wanted to underscore that it was but a small part of my case, whereas there are others who seem willing to lynch him just based on that statement alone.

It may not be the best case I've ever put together, but I'm happy with it and my vote stays, and it is the best you're going to get toDay out of this particular sub.

[sachertorte]

Chronos (6): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, GuiriEnEspaña 1000, Tom Scud 1002, Rysto 1005

Tom Scud (5): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004

Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941

TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002, Meeko 982

Oredigger77 (1): special ed 995

[Tom Scud]

Still don't have much time; a quick response to Jimmy: my thinking in that post was (1) I figured that given that the Day was turning into a two-horse race I needed to take a look at the other case and (2) up to then, my impression was that the case against One was pretty baseless, and I was preparing to denounce it as the same; as I came to the opposite conclusion I felt I ought to report it and my reasoning. On rereading, I realized that I'd pretty much recreated your argument (I didn't have your post up in front of me to read them side-by-side), so I added the "reinventing the wheel" - probably I should have just deleted and said "what Jimmy said", but vanity demanded I not delete 4 paragraphs of typing.

Elsewhere, Digger's vote looks pretty weird; could be a bussing, though the timing is odd; could be an attempt to bid up two Townies into a two-horse race to set up a future mislynch or misvig. (Could of course also be a clumsy scum attempt to save a fellow scum, if I were scum, which I'm not.) I remember he made a weird post about how he was supicious that no one else was suspicious of Meeko on day 1; not sure what else he did. I'm going to go back and review his posts overNight and see what turns up, if I'm not lynched.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

I'm going to go back and review his posts overNight and see what turns up, if I'm not lynched.
FWIW I've done my own analysis of his posts and while I'm happy with my vote toDay, OreDigger doesn't come out too well:
47, 52, 78 Pre and early game fluff, may be inactive for first few days
105 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243194&postcount=105) In favor of name claim to "lock in" potential roles although risks giving scum easy targets
117 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243329&postcount=117) Agrees with Chronos on need to do name claim early as this will hurt scum and prevent later role claims as town roles will have been "outed"
139 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243833&postcount=139) Suggests using Sach's list for claim order
156 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12244045&postcount=156) Claims Washington
308 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12252209&postcount=308) Curious why OaOW picked up "so many" (3) votes for voting NAF but Meeko's PIS was ignored. Suspects Special Ed for calling out a PIS slip - but not Meeko for making it?
330 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12252984&postcount=330) Still wonders how Meeko got away with the PIS slip, with "only 6" players commenting on it. Now realizes that for 40% of players to comment on an issue is pretty good. Re: OaOW's "so many" votes, 3 of 8 is quite a lot.
387 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255907&postcount=387) More about Meeko's PIS, questions Drain about her vote on him for his stance on Meeko when in fact both of them agree that the person calling out PIS is often scum
439 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257895&postcount=439) Thinks the whole Peeker thing was blown out of proportion, thinks whoever was driving the case is likely scum and will reread to see who it was (he doesn't)
625 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12266168&postcount=625) Fluff, couldn't vote due to paperwork
717 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12279030&postcount=717) Suggests that maybe scum's roles are tied to their names so killing NAF as a suspected Doc makes sense. Doesn't think OaOW was trying to divert attention and votes Jimmy
734 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12280435&postcount=734) Mis-read OaOW's post, thought he'd offered more than one reason for NAF's death, unvotes Jimmy
760 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12284218&postcount=760) Votes OaOW for single theory on NAF and omgus vote on Jimmy, realizes he's flip-flopping
811 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287143&postcount=811) To Ed about why OaOW would suggest a single data point, explains possible motivations and smudge of Meeko
816 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287571&postcount=816) Explains what he thought OaOW was hiding - OMGUS, smudge of Meeko, divert town's attention
935 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12301548&postcount=935) Comment on Vig and Story's death, going to reread to see if he can find any scum manipulation
983 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12308351&postcount=983) Chronos is looking bad, will reread to find something else. Doesn't buy Tom's slip but will review
990 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12312779&postcount=990) Found nothing else on Chronos, votes him but unhappy to create a tie. Suspects scum is manipulating the votes
993 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12313396&postcount=993) Explains why ties are bad, Chronos is pretty clean but scummier than Tom, doesn't find any other cases as solid, will review TexCat case
994 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12313402&postcount=994) Corrects previous attribution of case against Tom to Zeriel when it was actually Cookies
Posts 105 and 117 are weird, basically he's seems to be suggesting that all the town powers should claim early as, if their name matches their role, scum will have a hard time creating a fake claim which will enable them to claim that same role at a later stage in the game. He acknowledges that this will put an easy target on the back of certain town power roles but will prevent scum claiming Doc or Cop at a later stage. He returns to this argument in #717 (that players have names linked to their roles) and thought that scum killed NAF thinking he was a Doc.

Post 308 in interesting: first he asks why OaOW has gathered so many votes for his vote on NAF (actually just 1 vote), then wonders why everyone ignored Meeko's PIS slip and then comments that people who pick up on PIS slips tend to be scum so he's suspicious of Ed. In post 330 he considers 3 of 8 votes to be "so many", although only 1 was for the vote on NAF and then admits that 6 players commenting on the slip is pretty acceptable. Post 387 is a defense of a vote received from Drain where he tells her that she should be suspicious of Ed for calling out the slip, not of him. Although he then adds that he'd have called out the slip if he'd been online...

Between 717, 734 and 760 he admittedly flip-flops over OaOW and goes from defending him to voting him. He defends this vote in 811 and 816, mainly to Ed who called him out on it.

He promises to reread on a number of occasions (#439 to see who was driving the Peeker bandwagon, #935 to see if he can find any scum manipulation of the Day2 lynch, #983 going to reread to see if he can find anything scummy about Chronos[/B+], #993 going to reread the case against [B]TexCat. He only ever got back to us about one of his rereads and that was to tell us he found nothing scummy about Chronos.

Due to my own low post-count, I can't comment on the quantity of his participation, but in terms of quality: suicidal suggestions, flip-flopping, hedged comments, "broken" promises, misreading/skimming, etc. FOS OreDigger.

[special ed]

Day ends in about 80 minutes by my calculation

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Huh. Well, upon revisiting the respective cases, Oredigger didn't exactly come out of nowhere with his unhelpful vote today, but I still don't see the distinction that makes his bad play into scum play. And it's too early for me to start playing the well, he's voting for him, so since I think he's kind of scummy, I can't vote for the person he's voting for game.

Upon a complete reread of not Tom's posts, but the posts of those voting for him, I have to say... kind of garbage almost all the way down.

Mahaloth started the party with a continuation of the criticism for Tom's vote on Freudian. Tom had already addressed it and I won't get into it now except to say it isn't entirely specious, but it's not very good.

Then Zeriel:

*flips a coin* vote Tom Scud for the "overnight thread" slip from yesterday. (if it'd been tails, it would have been continuing the Drain Bead vote trend for the same old reasons) I will be happy with either of their lynches today and will shift vote accordingly as necessary.

Briefly, I don't believe we need any other evidence than "overnight thread" in a single-threaded game.

Which is fair enough, but does reference a coin flip, after all. That isn't terribly inspiring. Also, in the (I think kind of rare) case where a townie made a slip for whatever reason that looked really bad, this is the kind of vote you'd expect 100% of the time.

Next up is Chronos.

Meanwhile, the voting yesterDay: The end-of-Day votes can't tell us very much, since (almost) everyone voted for Freudian or Wanderers, and they were both Town. However, it might be instructive to look at where those two wagons came from. Jimmy started the case on Wanderers, but it looks to me like his voters had a variety of reasons. The Freudian case, however, looks like it was driven pretty heavily by Tom, starting from before it was clear that the only two end-of-Day wagons would be on Townies. This looks to me to put some suspicion on Jimmy, and more on Tom. And I still haven't seen a plausible explanation for a Town Tom coming up with that "overnight thread" phrasing.

Vote Tom Scud

More words, same vote. Nothing that's actually a reason that can be personally chalked up to Chronos taking a stance, just the fact that Tom voted first on a known townie. I can personally attest to the inaccuracy of such an approach.

Fourth was Cookies, addressed in Rysto's post. My vote was based on the slip and me going back through Tom's post and finding something else I didn't like, but you know, that isn't good enough, I was grasping at that point. I'm going to feel like a serious jackass if it turns out that slip was a real slip, but there's nothing new there.

unvote Tom Scud

I don't see anywhere else to put my vote that's going to matter other than backing up my feeling that the case on Tom is trumped up. So if I'm right now, might as well be doubly right.

Vote Chronos

[Chronos]

For the record, it wasn't just that Tom was the first vote; it's that he was driving the case pretty hard.

But I'm not sure it matters much what I say in my defense now, since it looks pretty unlikely that enough votes will swing in the next hour to spare me. Ah, well, you'll know the truth about me soon enough.

[MHaye]

Evening all.

The results of my review of the posts of Oredigger and Chronos, promised above.

Chronos.

Post 820 – Wanderer's “lynch me” gambit was a frustration tell. Post 882 has a vote to lynch Wanderers. In Chronos's favour, he's focusing on which of the two lead was a better choice, and he doesn't mention the “lynch me” gambit as a frustration tell.

I don't see anything other than that on Day 2, and that doesn't support an accusation of being an infiltrator.

On Day 3, he pushed his case against Guiri in post 971, then withdrew it in post 975[/quote], after Red Skeezix pointed out that it was based on a misreading of Guiri's posts (missing “non” form “non-third-party” in the text he quoted from Guiri.)

I mention this because it's one of the two planks that Oredigger stands his vote for Chronos on. This is one of the two things that pinged Oredigger so heavily that he voted someone who's first two Days play he categorised as “clean.”

I don't think that it's up to supporting the case.

I voted Chronos on Day 1, so I've obviously been suspicious of him. His activity over the last two Days has seen my suspicion of him drop noticeably – other than his strange Day 1 vote, I see nothing against him, and what is good enough to back a Day 1 vote isn't good enough as we near the midgame.

Oredigger

On the other hand, we have in post [post=12312779]990 what looks like a clear reach to find a reason – any reason – to vote for Chronos. During my review of Oredigger's posts last night, I did come across post 308. In this post, Oredigger asked why OAOW drew votes for picking up a spelling error but Meeko “dropped what appeared to be PIS and got a pass.” This ignored approximately 50 or so posts in which Special Ed called Meeko out over the apparent PIS, only to reach an amicable conclusion in post 282, when Special Ed realised he had misinterpreted something Meeko said.

That looks to me like trying to restart a case against an easily-misunderstood target after the initiator had realised his error and walked away.

Vote Oredigger77

[sachertorte]

Chronos (7): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, GuiriEnEspaña 1000, Tom Scud 1002, Rysto 1005, Jimmy Chitwood 1004

Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004 1013

Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941

TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002, Meeko 982

Oredigger77 (2): special ed 995, MHaye 1015

Not Voting (0):

Well, at least you are consistent.
Chronos (Reverend) is dead.

All Night Actions are due by 2:00PM EDT 10 April 2010 via SDMB PM. The timestamp must read 1:59PM or earlier to be valid. I will consider the action request with the latest, valid time-stamp to be the final decision for each actor. Failure to submit an action will result in no action.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Vaya con dios, Chronos. :(

[Freudian Slit]

Am I still allowed to tend bar, even being as dead as I am?

[Chronos]

Am I still allowed to tend bar, even being as dead as I am? Of course, why do you think they call them spirits?

[Freudian Slit]

Wow. With a pun like that, you get to be my assistant. Wanna help me whip up a quick batch of golden showers?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

That sounds painful...

[Chronos]

Does that mean I'd be the one, er, holding the glass, or the one, ahem, pouring?

[Freudian Slit]

Well, you did just suffer a traumatic death. So you choose!

[Chronos]

What the frell, you only livedie once. I'll hold the glasses.

<watches carefully how Freudian makes the drink>

[Jimmy Chitwood]

So.

[Freudian Slit]

Oops, looks like it's day break. We're gonna have to hold of on that drink making lesson for now, Chronos.

[sachertorte]

I look longingly at the Giraffe Boards and the copious use of red.

Jimmy Chitwood (Vigilante) is dead.

[Rysto]

Cop down and Vig down. Ugh. If we're going to win this we'll have to do it the old fashioned way.


Vote Cookies

[Meeko]

I begin to wonder if my play is really all that bad. Or, if my play is on par with everyone else.


Oh, wait.


====
Would be nice to have a list of those still with us, with us.


Scud and Cat still alive?

Then again, the ""slip"" on mentioning the overnight thread seems to be less, given that Slit was town.

Bet one or the other of those two, if not both, are scum, of Scud and Cat.


But I lean towards Cat

Vote TexCat

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Good luck, you unfortunate bastards.

[Mahaloth]

Ouch.

Well, unless something comes up to change my mind, I'm voting the way I have the last two Days. Let me review, briefly.

Vote Tom Scud

Because:

1. His vote for Freudian on Day One(I think) was terribly lame. That is where he got my vote initially and where he first pinged me. His "point" and vote looked even worse when she came up town.

2. He accuses both Freudian and TexCat of going after vulnerable/controversial players, yet he has gone after low volume posters like TexCat and Kelly.

3. He's been a hypocritical bottom feeder, poking people and sliding away.

To me, he's just been the most scummy, and while I fully understand why the votes shifted at the end of yesterDay, I suspect that it could also be in part because he's scum and has the other scums to save him.

I think it's a wise lynch for toDay.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

I think it's pretty unambiguous that Jimmy was our Vig, Story's reveal wasn't so straightforward so there's a little hope we still have a Cop among us, we sure need one...

Vote OreDigger

For the reasons I gave yesterDay after my analysis plus the vote on Chronos.

After yet another re-read I'm also pinged by Red. Lots of "scum wouldn't do that" type arguments, safe play, easy votes, I remember the term "clean-noser", and I'm highly suspicious.
159 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12244131&postcount=159) Posts PM, Ogden Nash (Poet)
302 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.
php?p=12251906&postcount=302) Comment on typo not being a scum tell but picking up on one is
312 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12252290&postcount=312) To Peeker, best to be clear when making a claim
316 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12252434&postcount=316) Doesn't see scum motivation for not sharing parenthetical, votes TexCat
385 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255400&postcount=385) Defends himself to Freudian and TexCat after they voted him. Explains he voted Tex for the reason given for her vote on Peeker and for not giving the scum motivation, scum wouldn't want to draw so much attention to themselves
395 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12256376&postcount=395) To Peeker, clarifies that "doing (what Peeker did) does not make someone scum"
510 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261961&postcount=510) Gives example of case where he was scum twice in a row
599 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265803&postcount=599)Happy with vote. Doesn't fully agree with Story's case against Chronos, he just proposed a bad idea but didn't follow up on it. Is pinged by Drain's comment on everyone voting for Peeker due to his play style
608 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265853&postcount=608) To Jimmy, scum wouldn't make the mistake Kelly made
612 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265886&postcount=612) To Jimmy, says he'd been lynched for voting rashly, scum wouldn't do that
636 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12267067&postcount=636) Fluff about bestiality
647 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12269657&postcount=647) Fluff, posts link to spreadsheet
727 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12279624&postcount=727) Comments on previous game and lucky list of possible scum. Defends Kelly, rash voting isn't a scum tell, doesn't think Freudian is bussing him, a 1 for 1 deal wouldn't favor scum, doesn't understand Zeriel's vote on Drain
835 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287957&postcount=835) Is pinged by Freudian for bandwagony votes, votes her
851 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289912&postcount=851) Doesn't get Story's vote on Mahaloth, vote was weakly motivated but not opportunistic. Asks TexCat to clarify vote on Jimmy, thinks she mischaracterized him
974 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12307486&postcount=974) Story was likely a power role but we shouldn't assume he's a cop who left breadcrumbs, doesn't buy TexCat's death miller idea, FOSes Zeriel for coin-flip vote on Tom but is not scummy, Tom's "slip" is a null-tell, comments that Meeko went quiet in 2 games before (as town and scum), accuses Chronos of a mischaracterization and votes him
On preview, I see Meeko's back after his Day3 quasi-absence, another one who pings me but I daren't attempt a WoW on him...

[Red Skeezix]

Cop down and Vig down. Ugh. If we're going to win this we'll have to do it the old fashioned way.


Vote Cookies

Is this vote based on your comments about the case that she made against Tom Scud?

@Meeko: Could you recap your case against TexCat?

[Rysto]

Is this vote based on your comments about the case that she made against Tom Scud?
No, I've decided to let random.org do my voting from now on.

Yes, it's due to the case I laid out yesterDay.

[TexCat]

Ugh. My main suspect dead by scum, and worse he turns out to be the vig? Jimmy had claimed Alexander Graham Bell (Inventor). Perhaps this is why he was against the name claim?

I was liking the cases Ed & MHaye made on Oredigger yesterDay, even more so now that Chronos has flipped town. I also note that Oredigger did not vote on Day 1, something that I hate.

Vote: Oredigger

[Red Skeezix]

Guiri, just to clarify what you've mischaracterized, I haven't said "scum wouldn't do that" i've said "that doesn't look scummy, here's why" or "if you're going to say that that is a scummy behavior, please justify why". Also, how have I been a "clean noser"? I've pointed out things that I thought were scummy, and given my opinion, which you are so quick to dismiss despite what I've actually said as "scum wouldn't do that", on most of the major cases that have been made.

[special ed]

Vote Oredigger

like we should have done yesterDay

[GuiriEnEspaña]

Guiri, just to clarify what you've mischaracterized, I haven't said "scum wouldn't do that" i've said "that doesn't look scummy, here's why" or "if you're going to say that that is a scummy behavior, please justify why". Also, how have I been a "clean noser"? I've pointed out things that I thought were scummy, and given my opinion, which you are so quick to dismiss despite what I've actually said as "scum wouldn't do that", on most of the major cases that have been made.
Sure, I said "Lots of "scum wouldn't do that" type arguments", I didn't say you'd said "scum wouldn't do that". It's a small difference (like the "non" in "non third party") but the following extracts (bolding mine) should help demonstrate what I meant (links to your full posts were in the spoiler tags in my previous post):
@Texcat: How is peeker not disclosing his parenthetical scummy? Or in other words, What is the scum motivation for doing so? I don't see it, nor do I see what the point the point of creating a distraction centered around himself would be for scum. What I do see is someone latching onto a recent discussion topic (peeker's allusive claim) and trying to turn it into a legitimate vote.
Your vote is worthy of a vote because it does not make sense. How does any player drawing all this attention to himself benefit him or the scum team if he is scum? What's the scum motivation? If you can tell me that, then maybe your vote will make more sense to me and I'll consider rescinding mine and reconsider your points, but at this time I just don't see it.
IME, scum are MORE conscientious about their actions, and less likely to act rashly then town.
On to Kelly/Meeko/Freudian. NAF's original case against kelly was weak, it looks to me like someone playing rashly. If you want to attribute rashness as a scum play, you'll have to convince me since I just don't buy it on face value. If I have Meeko's argument correct, he is arguing that Kelly is being bussed so that he will be lynched and Freudian would get town credit for it. This doesn't add up for me since a 1 for 1 trade rarely benefits scum. Not that it's not possible, but it's not the first thing I think of.
I can't see a motivation why a scum player would call attention to the fact that they were doing either of these things. So for now FOS Zeriel.

As for "clean-noser", I read this term is one of the recent games and liked it. I may have used it incorrectly but quickly looking over my WoW again you've basically dismissed a number of cases against players (many against now known townies, 302, 316, 599, 608, 727, 851, 974), provided random comments, examples from other games or clarifications (312, 395, 510, 612, 727), fluff (636, 647), defended yourself (385), was pinged by someone once (599 Drain), and voted (316 for TexCat for a weak vote, 835 for Freudian for bandwagony votes and 974 for Chronos for mischaracterizing me). I'd say that's pretty clean play and an ideal way for scum to approach this game without attracting too much attention.

I also noticed that you accused TexCat and now me of mischaracterizations but didn't followed it immediately with a vote whereas you were pretty quick to vote Chronos for a mischaracterization and didn't wait for a response.

[Drain Bead]

Anyone feel like doing a vote pattern analysis, given what we know of the dead? I never have time to do them, but I think it may help.

vote Oredigger. I should have voted for him yesterDay.

[Red Skeezix]

Sure, I said "Lots of "scum wouldn't do that" type arguments", I didn't say you'd said "scum wouldn't do that". It's a small difference (like the "non" in "non third party") but the following extracts (bolding mine) should help demonstrate what I meant (links to your full posts were in the spoiler tags in my previous post):


You might try to play it off as a small difference but it is huge, and the implications are equally huge. "Scum wouldn't do that" implies that an action signifies exclusively town behavior, since scum wouldn't do that (behavior). What I have said in all those cases was that the behavior on the outset is effectively not scummy, not that the player cannot be scum because they have done that. What you are trying to demonstrate essentially is that I am paying attention, asking questions and pointing out flaws in other players arguments. For some reason this strikes you as suspicious behavior.


As for "clean-noser", I read this term is one of the recent games and liked it. I may have used it incorrectly but quickly looking over my WoW again you've basically dismissed a number of cases against players (many against now known townies, 302, 316, 599, 608, 727, 851, 974), provided random comments, examples from other games or clarifications (312, 395, 510, 612, 727), fluff (636, 647), defended yourself (385), was pinged by someone once (599 Drain), and voted (316 for TexCat for a weak vote, 835 for Freudian for bandwagony votes and 974 for Chronos for mischaracterizing me). I'd say that's pretty clean play and an ideal way for scum to approach this game without attracting too much attention.


I have to laugh about you picking up that term and using it as an argument. IIRC, "clean-noser" was used pretty extensively by scum in Cecil Pond (amrussel) to throw suspicion around at players who were town and make pro-town arguments about players who were not town.

Also, I fail to see how I've played a "clean" game. I've been poking and prodding where I have perceived a lot of players have been turning a blind eye to. Just because my comments and criticisms have been largely ignored this game, does not imply that they are any less valid or designed not to provoke attention. I voted TexCat for weak voting reasons, and I voted Freudian for having weak voting reasons. I called out Jimmy on his assertion that scum is more likely to make rash plays than town, why? Because IME, that's a statement that cannot be backed up.

Plus, in many of the examples that you have given, A player has said something to the effect of "So-and-so did this and that makes them scummy" with no reasoning other than pronouncement. I have held, and will continue to hold, for action X to be declared scummy, there has to be a why. Saying that something is scummy, does not make it so, there has to be more.


I also noticed that you accused TexCat and now me of mischaracterizations but didn't followed it immediately with a vote whereas you were pretty quick to vote Chronos for a mischaracterization and didn't wait for a response.


Well, it's still pretty early in the day, and I am still considering other cases, namely Oredigger and TexCat. Plus you are ignoring why I voted Chronos, which is to say he made big puffy case based on nothing, and then voted an established bandwagon. It looked to me like he was creating an opening for a bandwagon to start. Without taking responsibility for it himself (smudge and bluster).

[Rysto]

Anyone feel like doing a vote pattern analysis, given what we know of the dead? I never have time to do them, but I think it may help.

I never find it too useful until I can see a name in red, but here we go:

Day One

peekercpa (4): Zeriel 151 190, TexCat 314 356, Chronos 360, Meeko 383, Freudian Slit 478, Mahaloth 482
KellyCriterion (3): NAF1138 313, Jimmy Chitwood 484, Tom Scud 571
Chronos (3): storyteller0910 416 564, peekercpa 450, storyteller0910 590, MHaye 591
Drain Bead (2): Zeriel 560, special ed 565
TexCat (1): Red Skeezix 316, Tom Scud 328 571, peekercpa 346 450
Oredigger77 (1): Drain Bead 347
Red Skeezix (1): TexCat 356, Freudian Slit 364 478
Zeriel (1): storyteller0910 564 567, One And Only Wanderers 570
Rysto (1): GuiriEnEspaña 576
Freudian Slit (1): Rysto 577
NAF1138 (0): One And Only Wanderers 179 288, KellyCriterion 242 244
storyteller0910 (0): peekercpa 116 201
One And Only Wanderers (0): Chronos 180 360, Jimmy Chitwood 184, Meeko 220 291
Mahaloth (0): Meeko 291 298
Not Voting (2) : KellyCriterion, Oredigger77

Day Two

One And Only Wanderers (8): Jimmy Chitwood 757, Oredigger77 760, Freudian Slit 763, Mahaloth 815, GuiriEnEspaña 855, Drain Bead 865, Zeriel 874, Chronos 882
Freudian Slit (8): Rysto 655, Meeko 666, Tom Scud 783, Red Skeezix 835, special ed 861, OAOW 871, TexCat 880, MHaye 885
Mahaloth (1): storyteller0910 833
Jimmy Chitwood (0): Oredigger 717 734, One And Only Wanderers 751 871, TexCat 795 880
Drain Bead (0): Zeriel 715 874
GuiriEnEspaña (0): Chronos 803 882
TexCat (0): Tom Scud 706 783
Tom Scud (0): Mahaloth 787 815
Meeko (0): Freudian Slit 651 763

Day Three

Chronos (7): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, GuiriEnEspaña 1000, Tom Scud 1002, Rysto 1005, Jimmy Chitwood 1004
Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004 1013
Oredigger77 (2): special ed 995, MHaye 1015
Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941
TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002, Meeko 982

[Mahaloth]

Thanks, Rysto. I see that up a bit I said I voted for Tom Scud the last two days. I forgot about OneandOnly and that I changed my vote that day.

I just want to clarify in case people look at it later. I did vote for Tom on Day 2, but unvoted because I didn't like OneAndOnly saying he'd be a good lynch for the Day.

Anyway, thanks for collecting the votes together, Rysto. Mine appear to be accurate.

[Rysto]

Anyway, thanks for collecting the votes together, Rysto. Mine appear to be accurate.

I just copied and pasted sach's final vote counts. If there are errors, blame him, not me. :)

[Meeko]

On preview, I see Meeko's back after his Day3 quasi-absence, another one who pings me but I daren't attempt a WoW on him...

Yes, I'm not posting as much in this game.

Would you rather I go back to being a maximum posting outlier?

--

But seriously, anyone can tell you that I am becoming more and more disenfranchised with Mafia, Town's record for this game notwithstanding.

Frankly, and yes I dare say this, I feel like I skim the game too much as it is. I think we all do, and it doesn't help.

I think it's a perfect storm:

I need to post less
No one understands me
When you guys do, I don't think it matters to the outcome of the game
I finally found a job
so on and so on.


But yes, I care less for Mafia in recent memory. Take from that what you will. It would seem that recently, I have realized more than ever how much I don't fit in with Mafia. I used to think it wouldn't matter, that I could carry on regardless. Something is getting to me, and I'm not that sure I can separate it out anymore.
-

How is it that I ping you? I'm not going to beat any dead horses here.

--

I am On Texcat for wasting game time on questioning word of Mod truths. The entire "is blue town" issue.

[Meeko]

NETA: I didnt really think my lack of posting was an issue. I'm not about to call attention to it.

So, when can we talk about it, if I wont call it out?

Once it becomes an issue for someone else. Not sure how else to do it.

Is there a magic number someone has to hit, as to not be a lurker?

Certainly you guys aren't thinking Im suspect because of just recent non-activity? I mean, don't we still have others that are consistently not posting day to day in this game?

[GuiriEnEspaña]

The reason I did a WoW on you was that when looking at my list of remaining players I realized I'd hardly noticed you throughout this game and that alone raised my suspicions (apart from Cookies, only MHaye has posted less that the two of us but he manages to get in right at the end of the Day with a last minute vote so it leaves an impression). So far we've managed to lynch town players who've made some sort of mistake or bad play which caught our attention but we haven't found a single scum. It's time to also look at players who may be attempting to fly under the radar and not attracting much attention.

Your arguments are good, I admit I re-read your posts with the idea that you could be scum and so looked at you through that lens. I did notice that you dismissed a number of cases with the same argument, which you now say is your MO so I guess you're consistent. I saw a scum knowing that a case was baseless or weak and challenging the accuser while sometimes appearing to defend the accused. In many of the cases I could think of possible scum motivations so it seemed like you were just rattling off the same argument case after case but not getting your hands dirty by actually coming up with plausible answers to your own questions.
I've been poking and prodding where I have perceived a lot of players have been turning a blind eye to. Just because my comments and criticisms have been largely ignored this game, does not imply that they are any less valid or designed not to provoke attention.
I can see where you're coming from here, I've poked a number of players but have also had little or no response (until now) - it's impossible to get a read on players who ignore you. This dialog is helping.

The "clean noser" thing was brought up by sach who was town in that game:
- It is Day Three. I feel that Day Three is a good time to start looking at 'clean nosers.' I define 'clean nosers' to distinguish them from 'lurkers.' Lurkers are those players who post little. Often low posts are due to real life reasons rather than alignment. Clean Nosers on the other hand post enough not to be labeled a lurker, but post and vote in a way to avoid controversy and keep their nose clean.

This is not to say that I am suspicious of these people yet, only that I have a small impression of them so far for this game (which could very well be my fault).

I encourage others to look at the gameplay list and identify the players who you haven't been noticing. Not that that makes them scummy, only that you need to pay closer attention to them and perhaps look and see if your lack of noticing them is signs of a 'clean noser.'

Plus you are ignoring why I voted Chronos, which is to say he made big puffy case based on nothing, and then voted an established bandwagon. It looked to me like he was creating an opening for a bandwagon to start. Without taking responsibility for it himself (smudge and bluster).
I took that for granted as the objective of any intentional mischaracterization would be to create suspicion around a player and possibly generate votes.

[Tom Scud]

Wow. Surprised to be alive, and sorry to see our vig gone.

First order of business - I did that reread of Oredigger; didn't find much that Guiri missed, apart from one thing:

Check out this line from his name claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12244045&postcount=156):

You are George Washington (President). You win with theTown.


Can we magnify that last phrase?

with theTown.


I think this is an actual scum slip here. (I don't think sach typed out "You win with the Town." individually for each PM. So the only person who could have made a typo is Oredigger.)

For that, and his vote yesterday, and his weird statement on Day 1:

vote Oredigger

[Tom Scud]

(The weird statement on day 1 being the "I'm surprised no one else was suspicious of Meeko for PIS" thing.)

[GuiriEnEspaña]

How is it that I ping you? I'm not going to beat any dead horses here.
/snipped

Mainly a dead horse (Kelly) plus your absence yesterDay was really noticed - just look at the post count for the Day. I remember in colorless you purposely posted less in order to attract a cop investigation (as you were the scum godfather).

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Things continue to go poorly, so I think it is time to make a move.

I am a Mason, aligned with the Town, and another of our number is Texcat. We only know who else is in the Masonry. We do not communicate off-board. If it had not been for my perfect knowledge that TexCat is a Mason, I would very likely have been voting for her already. Let's just say that we apparently interpret things very very differently. At this time, I am not going to speak to any further details that may or may not exist with respect to the Masonry. And I take the opportunity to ask TexCat to also keep quiet about such things.

My short list right now includes Tom Scud, Rysto, and Meeko. Tom Scud has a solid record of voting for and fostering suspicion against Town, and my case against him was put together with what I could find without exposing my perfect Mason information, something that Rysto certainly seemed to have picked up on, but I think it may have exposed Rysto's own perfect information with respect to Tom Scud's alignment. Meeko has also rather doggedly pursued a Mason, not that Kelly's participation level was great and Town could hold reasonable suspicions. But, in spite of play that is by all accounts dubious, TexCat, Kelly, and I add up to two Town Masons, like it or not.

I am taking a bit of a gamble that you won't lynch TexCat or I to prove our benevolent Masonry, but the town needed a shot in the arm and this is the best I can do to that end. I'm doing this early and with only a small amount of pressure on me personally, but now we have lots of time to talk about it.

[Rysto]

Unvote Cookies

Wow, I'm really setting the world on fire here, aren't I?

Updated vote chart:
Day One

peekercpa (4): Zeriel 151 190, TexCat 314 356, Chronos 360, Meeko 383, Freudian Slit 478, Mahaloth 482
KellyCriterion (3): NAF1138 313, Jimmy Chitwood 484, Tom Scud 571
Chronos (3): storyteller0910 416 564, peekercpa 450, storyteller0910 590, MHaye 591
Drain Bead (2): Zeriel 560, special ed 565
TexCat (1): Red Skeezix 316, Tom Scud 328 571, peekercpa 346 450
Oredigger77 (1): Drain Bead 347
Red Skeezix (1): TexCat 356, Freudian Slit 364 478
Zeriel (1): storyteller0910 564 567, One And Only Wanderers 570
Rysto (1): GuiriEnEspaña 576
Freudian Slit (1): Rysto 577
NAF1138 (0): One And Only Wanderers 179 288, KellyCriterion 242 244
storyteller0910 (0): peekercpa 116 201
One And Only Wanderers (0): Chronos 180 360, Jimmy Chitwood 184, Meeko 220 291
Mahaloth (0): Meeko 291 298
Not Voting (2) : KellyCriterion, Oredigger77

Day Two

One And Only Wanderers (8): Jimmy Chitwood 757, Oredigger77 760, Freudian Slit 763, Mahaloth 815, GuiriEnEspaña 855, Drain Bead 865, Zeriel 874, Chronos 882
Freudian Slit (8): Rysto 655, Meeko 666, Tom Scud 783, Red Skeezix 835, special ed 861, OAOW 871, TexCat 880, MHaye 885
Mahaloth (1): storyteller0910 833
Jimmy Chitwood (0): Oredigger 717 734, One And Only Wanderers 751 871, TexCat 795 880
Drain Bead (0): Zeriel 715 874
GuiriEnEspaña (0): Chronos 803 882
TexCat (0): Tom Scud 706 783
Tom Scud (0): Mahaloth 787 815
Meeko (0): Freudian Slit 651 763

Day Three

Chronos (7): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, GuiriEnEspaña 1000, Tom Scud 1002, Rysto 1005, Jimmy Chitwood 1004
Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004 1013
Oredigger77 (2): special ed 995, MHaye 1015
Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941
TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002, Meeko 982


I need to do a re-read and see if I can find my way, because I've clearly been out to lunch for this entire game.

[Meeko]

I remember in colorless you purposely posted less in order to attract a cop investigation (as you were the scum godfather).

Was that my M.O. for that game?

A. Ok, Guiri (at the very least, all of you, at the max.) can no longer claim that he(?) doesn't understand me.

AND / OR

B. That's interesting. I didn't think I was that organized in that game, or in any game, to pull something like that off. That is to say you are giving me more credit that I deserve here.

It's just interesting that you have that perception of the same events I was party to, when my perception of same comes no where close.

[Rysto]

I have to ask why you felt the need to claim with 1 vote on you, 1 vote on TexCat and several on Oredigger, though.

[Meeko]

(I don't think sach typed out "You win with the Town." individually for each PM. So the only person who could have made a typo is Oredigger.)



I thought the Typo thing was a few chapters back. Are we really still hanging votes, in part, on Typos? (If you aren't hanging it in part on typo, why bring it up?)

Things continue to go poorly, so I think it is time to make a move.

I am a Mason, aligned with the Town, and another of our number is Texcat.

Meeko has also rather doggedly pursued a Mason, not that Kelly's participation level was great and Town could hold reasonable suspicions. But, in spite of play that is by all accounts dubious, TexCat, Kelly, and I add up to two Town Masons, like it or not.



Town: Is this the "right way" to claim mason?

Cookies: Yours is Industrial Strength WEAK SAUCE. :

1. Assume you are telling the truth
1b. You don't give me a fraction of a second to Unvote TexCat.

2. Assume you are lying
2b. It would be all too easy to move against me with this assumed townlieness, coming on strong, all of a sudden.
2c. I assume Rysto was talking to you, Cookies, and even if he wasn't, I will state / add that a claim from you right now seems out of place.

3. I think you are half true. I think you and TexCat have night communications. But I doubt you are Masons.
3b. Yes, I think you both are Scum.
3c. From where I sit wouldn't be such a bad move to cement a scum victory.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I hope TexCat doesn't take this the wrong way, but I didn't think she was going to be able to talk herself out of the hole she was in.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

The "right way" for a Town power to play at any time, is the way he/she feels is best.

[Rysto]

By the way, are you guys actually Benedict Arnold and Mozart?

[Meeko]

I hope TexCat doesn't take this the wrong way, but I didn't think she was going to be able to talk herself out of the hole she was in.

Interesting, if Tex is Scum, a scummate would nearly have to do the exact same as you did.

The "right way" for a Town power to play at any time, is the way he/she feels is best.

I didn't ask you. But, I can substitute Scum for "Town" in the above and it still holds true.

At this point Cookies, I'm going to need a third party to confirm you. That means someone other than Tex.

I just feel that you claimed wrong. If indeed you are claiming truthfully. And it's gonna take someone other than Texcat.

No vote mind you, but, I just get a feeling something is off here. A Ping if you will.

[Rysto]

Meeko, why are you fishing for a third mason?

[Meeko]

Meeko, why are you fishing for a third mason?

As I stated, I don't like the Cookies claim, I don't like the timing, or the double-dip aspect swooping in to claim two masons in one shot.

I'm not fishing. I'm just saying I'm not buying the claim as is. And as the claim is "as is", the second mason, Texcat, can't claim for Cookies, IMHO.

What do we have left after that ?

Didn't you have concerns with a Cookies as Mason Claim ?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

By the way, are you guys actually Benedict Arnold and Mozart?

Yep.

Why so testy, Meeko? Am I not allowed to answer your rhetorical questions?

I sincerely hope that you'll at least consider going back through the game and assuming, if only for a moment, that I'm telling the truth. Then you can go back to refusing to believe unless Texcat or I dies or someone else manages to say something to convince you.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

We can't coordinate, and claiming by myself as a Mason does nothing to prevent TexCat from getting strung up.

[Meeko]

Interesting that Town can be so wrong for so long, and no one gives a damn.

Interesting that in the face of that, I end up being doubly wrong, instead of a double negative canceling each other out.

Town has to sharpen the saw at some point.

Just how I feel here.

[Meeko]

We can't coordinate, and claiming by myself as a Mason does nothing to prevent TexCat from getting strung up.

Elaborate on "We can't coordinate" please. I need help understanding this. I fear I'm making an assumption here, OR you just slipped against your mason claim.

Again, I don't see how scum would act differently in your second part.

[special ed]

Was that my M.O. for that game?

A. Ok, Guiri (at the very least, all of you, at the max.) can no longer claim that he(?) doesn't understand me.

AND / OR

B. That's interesting. I didn't think I was that organized in that game, or in any game, to pull something like that off. That is to say you are giving me more credit that I deserve here.

It's just interesting that you have that perception of the same events I was party to, when my perception of same comes no where close.

Direct quotes from the Scum thread of that game:

1. I am making a conscious effort to not spam the game thread with posts. Will this adversely affect my rep in the game? Or is my rate of posting such that it needs to be reduced, period regardless of alignment or role?

And While I am at it, I will just ask Town ex post facto, My god, did my post count numbers not tip my hand this go around?

and from the game thread during post-game conversation



----


And no one commented on my Post count numbers. [Yeah, I know I just made up for it right now. So sue me.]


I think this was my best game yet. But It still got to me. Sorry Skeezix

So, my question is why would you now deny that you have the skills to pull that off when you were purposely doing it in that game and proud of the fact after the game...

and now you're fishing for an additonal mason claim? really? All it will take is one mason counterclaim for us to determine the truth if cookies is lying.

And if she's lying and there are no masons, we can deal with that in a couple of Days and lynch both her and TexCat (who if Town would deny Cookies claim)

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

We don't have an off-board location at which to coordinate, we only know who each other are.

[Rysto]

We don't have an off-board location at which to coordinate, we only know who each other are.

Mind sharing your role PM? Snip out the names of any masons other than TexCat, of course.

[Meeko]

So, my question is why would you now deny that you have the skills to pull that off when you were purposely doing it in that game and proud of the fact after the game...

and now you're fishing for an additonal mason claim? really? All it will take is one mason counterclaim for us to determine the truth if cookies is lying.

And if she's lying and there are no masons, we can deal with that in a couple of Days and lynch both her and TexCat (who if Town would deny Cookies claim)

Wow Ed. You don't know how to shut up do you? You might want to recall the timing of those statements before you take anymore out of context.



proud of the fact after the game

A F T E R.

Not during. Not when I could have manipulated a cop to come after me.

---
1. I am making a conscious effort to not spam the game thread with posts. Will this adversely affect my rep in the game? Or is my rate of posting such that it needs to be reduced, period regardless of alignment or role?

And While I am at it, I will just ask Town ex post facto, My god, did my post count numbers not tip my hand this go around?

And no one commented on my Post count numbers. [Yeah, I know I just made up for it right now. So sue me.]
-------------------------------------

Ed, as I recall the game all of these statements come either BEFORE or AFTER the game proper.

1. This is a SMUDGE.

2. Either get your facts right, or don't bait me.

To my first: I think my doubt is self evident : Will This Work? Or is it a wash entire?

Not the words of a Confident man. [Yes, I admit it, because it's true.]

To my Second: Ex Post Facto : AFTER THE FACT. As I said earlier, I Can't act on the past using observations in hindsight. Mafia would be vastly different if we all could do this.

To my Third : Past tense of comment. Again, AFTER THE FACT .

----

and now you're fishing for an additonal mason claim? really? All it will take is one mason counterclaim for us to determine the truth if cookies is lying.

This is the thinking pattern that causes Town to lose.

I don't know why I bother at this point. But here we go ::

1.You assume that the game has Masons all of a sudden.
2.I think you are the one fishing for Masons.
3.This would be interesting if you are a third scum.
3b.Not ruling it out.


And if she's lying and there are no masons, we can deal with that in a couple of Days and lynch both her and TexCat (who if Town would deny Cookies claim)

4. Town needs to drop the "We can deal with that "in a couple of days" mentality."
4b. Scum knows how many days we have left.
4c. I don't see town motivation to stall - ever.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I can, but the wording has implications as to the size of the Masonry.

This is what it looks like when omitting the implicating part:

You are Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Composer). You win with the Town.
You know that Benedict Arnold [omitted].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart

[Meeko]

Interesting, that Rysto asked for, and more or less received what he was after.

No "Fishing" charge was leveled.

[special ed]

Meeko, slow down.

1. Guiri indicated that he is pinged by your limited posting. He stated that you did that intentionally in Colorless when you were Scum.
2. You seemed to be saying that you were not trying to do that in Colorless
3. I pointed out 2 post in that game where you indicated that you were attempting to post less.
4. I also pointed out 1 post after the game where you admitted that was your strategy.


Therefore, it appears that Guiri's justification for being pinged by your limited posting is accurate.

Additionally, it appears that your denial of using that as a tactic while Scum is inaccurate. (your confidence in your ability doesn't mean you didn't try to do it)

Regarding the comments about the Masonry, I'll allow other people to respond to you since you're spouting off at me about baiting and smudging you. I still belive it foolish to demand that more masons claim.

[special ed]

Interesting, that Rysto asked for, and more or less received what he was after.

No "Fishing" charge was leveled.

He didn't ask for someone else to claim. He just asked for a little back-up to a claim already made. Asking for her to back-up her claim isn't fishing. Asking for another person to claim is fishing.

[Meeko]

Meeko, slow down.

1. Guiri indicated that he is pinged by your limited posting. He stated that you did that intentionally in Colorless when you were Scum.
2. You seemed to be saying that you were not trying to do that in Colorless
3. I pointed out 2 post in that game where you indicated that you were attempting to post less.
4. I also pointed out 1 post after the game where you admitted that was your strategy.


Therefore, it appears that Guiri's justification for being pinged by your limited posting is accurate.

Additionally, it appears that your denial of using that as a tactic while Scum is inaccurate. (your confidence in your ability doesn't mean you didn't try to do it)

Regarding the comments about the Masonry, I'll allow other people to respond to you since you're spouting off at me about baiting and smudging you. I still belive it foolish to demand that more masons claim.

1. My issue is that Guiri said it was my strategy to get the cop to waste a night on me. I don't think that plan could ever work out as a Godfather would want it to be. Let alone with a Meeko Godfather in play.

2. I DID say that.

3. I don't see a connection with your 3 and anything else. Can I not post less just for posting less sake? [As I mentioned, would it even matter, given my volume, at any alignment or role?]

4.What strategy did I admit to now? :confused:

Guiris justification is in debate.

Additionally, it appears that your denial of using that as a tactic while Scum is inaccurate. (your confidence in your ability doesn't mean you didn't try to do it)

It would seem to me, that you have to prove your case here. You seem to be saying I DID do it. Before you go further here, I think you need to prove what you have alleged so far.

You are the one who said "counterclaim" and you are implicitly daring a Mason to out him or herself in doing so. == Fishing.

[Meeko]

He didn't ask for someone else to claim. He just asked for a little back-up to a claim already made. Asking for her to back-up her claim isn't fishing. Asking for another person to claim is fishing.

Asking for someone to provide additional, heretofore secret, information is fishing.

Assume Cookies is Town.
Assume Rysto is Scum.

Rysto asking Cookies for more information, from her Role PM no less, that he does not have, IS FISHING.

[special ed]

You are the one who said "counterclaim" and you are implicitly daring a Mason to out him or herself in doing so. == Fishing.

I'll ignore the part you don't seem to understand. Maybe someone else can explain it to you.

First off, I would encourage a Mason to counterclaim, but not until we hear from TexCat.

If TexCat claims to not be a Mason, we know Cookies is lying.

If TexCat claims to be a Mason, then I would encourage a real mason to counterlcaim. We'll know at least 1 of the 3 are lying and possibly 2 of them.

[special ed]

Asking for someone to provide additional, heretofore secret, information is fishing.

Assume Cookies is Town.
Assume Rysto is Scum.

Rysto asking Cookies for more information, from her Role PM no less, that he does not have, IS FISHING.

If Cookies is Town, then all she's provided is a little back-up to her claim. And what could Rysto possibly gain from it? The ability to fake claim Mason? Hardly useful, eh?

Cookies provided no additional information. Rysto asked for no additional information, just back-up for what Cookies already claimed.

[Rysto]

Rysto asking Cookies for more information, from her Role PM no less, that he does not have, IS FISHING.
I asked for the role PM because Cookies claimed to know that TexCat was actually Benedict Arnold, but that they had no offboard-communications. If she knew that, then the information would have to be in her PM. I wouldn't necessarily think that a Mason would get that information in a role PM, so I wanted to see if her role PM matched her claim.

[Meeko]

If Cookies is Town, then all she's provided is a little back-up to her claim. And what could Rysto possibly gain from it? The ability to fake claim Mason? Hardly useful, eh?

Cookies provided no additional information. Rysto asked for no additional information, just back-up for what Cookies already claimed.


then all she's provided is a little back-up == Backpedal.

And what could Rysto possibly gain from it? == Anything that Cookies would give him

The ability to fake claim Mason? == Ok sure, this is a feasible answer, among others.


Hardly useful, eh? == Don't give me your applesauce. I flat out dislike your diction here. There is something wrong with it. I would call it a smudge or a mischaracterization of my comments, but I think they both fail to fit the bill of why I hate "" Hardly useful, eh? Just seems over the top inciting.

Ed you seem to have trouble with timing.

At the time Rysto asked Cookies for more information, it was Fishing.

It remains Fishing.

Cookies could have said ANYTHING, NOTHING, or EVERYTHING.

and you know what?

It remains Fishing.

[Meeko]

I asked for the role PM because Cookies claimed to know that TexCat was actually Benedict Arnold, but that they had no offboard-communications. If she knew that, then the information would have to be in her PM. I wouldn't necessarily think that a Mason would get that information in a role PM, so I wanted to see if her role PM matched her claim.

Just want to point out that there is no guarantee that Cookies posted a true, albeit snipped, role pm.

[special ed]

I asked for the role PM because Cookies claimed to know that TexCat was actually Benedict Arnold, but that they had no offboard-communications. If she knew that, then the information would have to be in her PM. I wouldn't necessarily think that a Mason would get that information in a role PM, so I wanted to see if her role PM matched her claim.

For now, I'm satisfied with her claim. It would be a bold move for Scum to try to pull this off with more risk than reward.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'll ignore the part you don't seem to understand. Maybe someone else can explain it to you.

First off, I would encourage a Mason to counterclaim, but not until we hear from TexCat.

If TexCat claims to not be a Mason, we know Cookies is lying.

If TexCat claims to be a Mason, then I would encourage a real mason to counterlcaim. We'll know at least 1 of the 3 are lying and possibly 2 of them.

Don't you mean to say "If TexCat claims to be a Mason but isn't one, then I would encourage a real mason to counterclaim."? If not, it would appear that you would be asking for any hypothetical Masons that may exist other than Texcat or I to claim regardless of whether or not we're lying.

[special ed]

Don't you mean to say "If TexCat claims to be a Mason but isn't one, then I would encourage a real mason to counterclaim."? If not, it would appear that you would be asking for any hypothetical Masons that may exist other than Texcat or I to claim regardless of whether or not we're lying.

Yes, that's what I meant.

If TexCat claims to be a Mason, then I encourage a real mason to counterclaim.

If TexCat is telling the truth, a real mason would not need to counterclaim.

But the way you said it is more clear.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

How am I backpedaling, Meeko?

[Red Skeezix]

Asking for someone to provide additional, heretofore secret, information is fishing.

This is a sort of false statement, false in that it is not what I believe the majority of players see as fishing. Fishing is a subtle/discreet/coercive attempt to elicit secret information either without the person being fished realize it or without coming right out and asking for it. Coming right out and asking for it is just asking for the information. From what I've read so far, neither you (meeko) nor Rysto has fished wrt Cookies. You wanted external verification, so you asked for it. Rysto wanted to know information from the PM so he asked for it.

By directly and openly asking for it, you are providing the person you are asking a choice whether or not to reveal the information since your request contains no subterfuge (that I can discern anyways).

[Meeko]

How am I backpedaling, Meeko?

Who said you were backpeddaling? Mine was to Ed's.

[Meeko]

By directly and openly asking for it, you are providing the person you are asking a choice whether or not to reveal the information since your request contains no subterfuge (that I can discern anyways).

And that makes it less of an offense than fishing?

I still see it as fishing.

If you fish something, but do it wrong, a "bad fish", then you can ahem, sniff it out.

If you can sniff a "bad fish" out, it would look no different than a direct and open inquiry.

I'm not so sure you can split hairs on a fish. Both attempt to get information. You just seemed to give scum, or scum mates approval here.

[special ed]

Meeko seems to think I've backpedalled between these 2 comments I made:

He didn't ask for someone else to claim. He just asked for a little back-up to a claim already made. Asking for her to back-up her claim isn't fishing. Asking for another person to claim is fishing.

If Cookies is Town, then all she's provided is a little back-up to her claim. And what could Rysto possibly gain from it? The ability to fake claim Mason? Hardly useful, eh?

Cookies provided no additional information. Rysto asked for no additional information, just back-up for what Cookies already claimed.

Anyway, I'll wait for TexCat to chime in on Cookie's claim. I'm sure things will be much more clear after that.

[special ed]

This is a sort of false statement, false in that it is not what I believe the majority of players see as fishing. Fishing is a subtle/discreet/coercive attempt to elicit secret information either without the person being fished realize it or without coming right out and asking for it. Coming right out and asking for it is just asking for the information. From what I've read so far, neither you (meeko) nor Rysto has fished wrt Cookies. You wanted external verification, so you asked for it. Rysto wanted to know information from the PM so he asked for it.

By directly and openly asking for it, you are providing the person you are asking a choice whether or not to reveal the information since your request contains no subterfuge (that I can discern anyways).

Some people fish with worms, some fish with nets, some fish with dynamite.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I don't know what to tell you Meeko. Sorry that my choice of play seems to have thrown you for a loop and made you apparently paranoid. Since I made my claim, you are seeing dark and sinister things in the posts of everyone who has posted since I claimed. I may have done something unexpected, but that was on purpose. I'm trying to shake things up a bit and leverage some extra information that the Town at large did not have previously, and with the string of Townie deaths we have in this game, doing things a bit differently will hopefully have better results that what we've been trying so far.

[Meeko]

I just feel most of the time, that you guys play differently when you play against me. Like Im a charity case.

It's getting old.

[Red Skeezix]

2b. It would be all too easy to move against me with this assumed townlieness, coming on strong, all of a sudden.

3c. From where I sit wouldn't be such a bad move to cement a scum victory.

That first statement pings me hard, Meeko. Please explain what you mean here.

The second statement, would you care to explain how it you see it working out to cement a scum victory?

[Red Skeezix]

Some people fish with worms, some fish with nets, some fish with dynamite.

I guess you have a point there. What it is I don't know. But I assume you are trying to say something profound. So please spell it out for me, because it's just not sinking in.

[Meeko]

That first statement pings me hard, Meeko. Please explain what you mean here.

The second statement, would you care to explain how it you see it working out to cement a scum victory?

2b. It would be all too easy to move against me with this assumed townlieness, coming on strong, all of a sudden.

3c. From where I sit wouldn't be such a bad move to cement a scum victory.

Cookies claims to be Mason, then uses it as a 16 ton weight over my vote on TexCat. This tactic seems way to spontaneous, way to manufactured to attempt an easy vote on me.

There is town cred to be had out there, Cookies believes she found it. Better yet, let's claim TexCat while we are at it, and then begin to take Meeko out.

Just seems to easy and too simple for scum not to take a chance there.

If Scum can """Coinfirm"" two scum as masons, it would go VERY far into giving them victory.

My vantage is Town, in a game where Town is sucking worse than the previous game. If Scum can seize this opportunity of incredible bad town play it would obviously help their chances.

Combine a less than optimal Town team, and a chance to ""confirm"" two scum as masons, and I think it's a slam dunk case for scum to win this one.

So says a townie who is sick with the status quo of Mafia games, of late.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Despite the fact that you happen to be in my short list Meeko, I really hope you can look at my claim as if you hadn't been referenced in it at all. Try to look at it objectively as well as subjectively. All you seem to be bringing so far is the subjective argument. How my play impacts you specifically. This, I believe, is an example of when people criticize you for being to self-centered in your game play. It is resulting in a blind spot for you. I try to play around this as much as I can, which may be accounting for some of the feeling you get about other players. I firmly believe, however, that we are just trying to adapt to your play style, not treat you like a charity case.

[Red Skeezix]

Cookies claims to be Mason, then uses it as a 16 ton weight over my vote on TexCat. This tactic seems way to spontaneous, way to manufactured to attempt an easy vote on me.

There is town cred to be had out there, Cookies believes she found it. Better yet, let's claim TexCat while we are at it, and then begin to take Meeko out.

Just seems to easy and too simple for scum not to take a chance there.


Except that would represent a huge risk for scum. Pushing the limelight onto two of their players to attempt to force a lynch of a single player. If they are scum, and there is actually a masonry in this game, they would have just given up two free lynches. So I don't see it as an easy or simple play.


If Scum can """Coinfirm"" two scum as masons, it would go VERY far into giving them victory.

My vantage is Town, in a game where Town is sucking worse than the previous game. If Scum can seize this opportunity of incredible bad town play it would obviously help their chances.

Combine a less than optimal Town team, and a chance to ""confirm"" two scum as masons, and I think it's a slam dunk case for scum to win this one.


Well at least I can see the point you are trying to make, although I disagree with it. If Cookies and TexCat are masons, they will not be confirmed as such until one of the following things happens:

1. Another person says that they are a mason, and says that cookies and texcat are also masons, then dies and the role reveal indicates this person is town.

2.TexCat comes in affirms that she is a mason and that Cookies is also a mason, then one of them dies and is revealed to be town.

Until that happens, neither of them is confirmed. They will be slightly more trusted due to their claims, but by no means confirmed.

[Meeko]

I do not understand how anybody can play beyond themselves. Indeed, you have to play for your team, something that, by definition, you are apart of.

I can't expect to know who else is Town.

I know that I am (town).

The best way to help town, is to help me.


Or would town rather I take a wild guess and help someone else, that has whatever odds of being non-town?


How can Town win if not being self-centered ? Rarely Masons can talk, but apparently that is rare, and rarer than I thought. Beyond that, there are games where one is not a mason, and in most games, the odds are, you will be Town, and will not be mason.

Why abandon the only certainty you have?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Despite the fact that you happen to be in my short list Meeko, I really hope you can look at my claim as if you hadn't been referenced in it at all. Try to look at it objectively as well as subjectively. All you seem to be bringing so far is the subjective argument. How my play impacts you specifically. This, I believe, is an example of when people criticize you for being to self-centered in your game play. It is resulting in a blind spot for you. I try to play around this as much as I can, which may be accounting for some of the feeling you get about other players. I firmly believe, however, that we are just trying to adapt to your play style, not treat you like a charity case.

Correction: Not all of your arguments are subjective. You should be skeptical. But it will have an anti-town effect if you dismiss everything I say and/or only come to negative conclusions about what I have said or done.

[Meeko]

Except that would represent a huge risk for scum. Pushing the limelight onto two of their players to attempt to force a lynch of a single player. If they are scum, and there is actually a masonry in this game, they would have just given up two free lynches. So I don't see it as an easy or simple play.

Scum is taking a chance, sure.

However, their odds would be better in a game where town is not playing their A Game.

However, their odds would be better in a game where town is less populated than normal.

These two go hand in hand, and I think we have both currently.

You guys ever play Solitaire, and you hit that one moment, that one shining moment when you know you have won?

Yeah, but you still have to move the rest of the cards around.

If scum can confirm themselves as masons, everything after is just card moving.

[Meeko]

NETA: Less Populated than Normal == I just mean in terms of a true ""Town"" population. Normal would be at game start.

If Town has less townies than it once had, Scum becomes freer to do more things.

[special ed]

I guess you have a point there. What it is I don't know. But I assume you are trying to say something profound. So please spell it out for me, because it's just not sinking in.

Sorry, I was a bit flip and silly.

What I meant is that, to me, fishing comes in a variety of fashions.

One can try to be subtle and get information without the other person even figuring out they are giving out information. (Honestly, this is difficult to catch and I'm not sure how successful it is, since people aren't going to won up to it if it works.)

One can be less subtle and make a statement and see who responds, trying to catch anyone (This often happens when the power roles have differing PMs than the Vanilla). If you look at Day 1, there are some examples that could fall into that.

Then, sometimes, people can just lob dynamite into the discussion and practically demand information. I guess most sports fishers wouldn't consider that fishing, but the end result can be the same.

[Rysto]

To me, fishing means trying to get players to reveal information that will help scum substantially more than town.

Just want to point out that there is no guarantee that Cookies posted a true, albeit snipped, role pm.

I am well aware of this.

[TexCat]

I can confirm that I am a mason and that Cookies is a mason. 750: (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12283052&postcount=750) I really wanted Kelly to be replaced and not to just idle out.

Probably Cookies thought that I should claim and leave her out of it for the time being -- since I seem to be the one getting most of the heat. And I was finally getting around to deciding that was indeed the best path forward, but Cookies beat me to it.

Lacking any counter-claims, I think town should accept our claims for the moment. We really need to lynch a scum and I hope with a reduced pool of suspects to concentrate on that we'll be able to find one toDay.

[TexCat]

I thought the Typo thing was a few chapters back. Are we really still hanging votes, in part, on Typos? (If you aren't hanging it in part on typo, why bring it up?)


This really pings me. Why wouldn't Tom bring up Oredigger's typo? It is an additional data point after all.

[Meeko]

This really pings me. Why wouldn't Tom bring up Oredigger's typo? It is an additional data point after all.

It is incredible that you guys fail to understand me. Why would a messenger ping you, but not the message itself?

One typo got us no where. Why would a new typo be any different?

[GuiriEnEspaña]

Was that my M.O. for that game?

A. Ok, Guiri (at the very least, all of you, at the max.) can no longer claim that he(?) doesn't understand me.

AND / OR

B. That's interesting. I didn't think I was that organized in that game, or in any game, to pull something like that off. That is to say you are giving me more credit that I deserve here.

It's just interesting that you have that perception of the same events I was party to, when my perception of same comes no where close.
I'm not sure how A and B can both be true. In the scum thread you stated you were going to limit your posts. Drain suggested posting once per page as a way to attract a Cop investigation and the throughout the rest of the scum threads you mentioned both your post count and your desire to be investigated. I thought these were linked and part of your strategy:
Quote Drain Bead: "Meeko, you should probably measure your participation in the thread. Maybe a one post per page post count, like a pitch count. If someone calls you on it, just mention the post that someone made after you came in about how your posting a ton affected other people's enjoyment of the game. Hopefully the minimal post count will be enough to get the Cop to investigate you."

1. I am making a conscious effort to not spam the game thread with posts. Will this adversely affect my rep in the game? Or is my rate of posting such that it needs to be reduced, period regardless of alignment or role?
Ed, as I recall the game all of these statements come either BEFORE or AFTER the game proper.
Meeko, you subbed in on Dec 15th during Day2, this first quote from the scum thread was from Night2 on Dec 17th.

This: And While I am at it, I will just ask Town ex post facto, My god, did my post count numbers not tip my hand this go around? was from Night 3

This: Godfather is. It's a shame that "Town doesn't trust me, especially when I have worked so hard this game on my post count, sob sob, sigh sigh etc etc. I thought this was my best game ever, not giving in to the scum that would bait me.... [[Actually, I think this has been my best game ever, I should play all Mafia as a day 3 sub.]] was from Night 5.

This:Good thing I kept my post count down throughout the game, or these last two days would have flagged me for sure. and this: Sorry for my play style blah blah blah, But I think my play is improving,,,,, were from Night 6.

So I don't see how "all of these statements come either BEFORE or AFTER the game proper."

You intentionally changed your play style and post quantity in that game, brought it up on numerous occasions in the scum thread and, after the game had finished, in the general thread. If you intention wasn't explicitly to attract a Cop investigation (thus semi-confirming you as town), what were your intentions with this ploy?

You have to agree that I had reasons to be "pinged" by your low post count yesterDay given the above.

[Tom Scud]

One typo got us no where. Why would a new typo be any different?

Because the NAF typo (and yours) was in the name/profession, whereas Oredigger's is in the "you win with the Town" section; thinking about how sach most likely created the PMs, the odds are he had a generic Town and generic Scum PM somewhere in a Word file or something, then typed in the name and profession, pasted in the wikipedia link, and typed in any power role info to modify the generic PM; I can't see him re-typing "You win with the Town" every time.

Which means the only person who could have made a typo was Oredigger, which means he must have falsified his PM. (We've already seen one Town player (storyteller) falsify his PM, so that alone is not iron-clad proof Oredigger is scum, but it's an additional data point to go with his behavior.)

[Meeko]

I'm not sure how A and B can both be true. In the scum thread you stated you were going to limit your posts. Drain suggested posting once per page as a way to attract a Cop investigation and the throughout the rest of the scum threads you mentioned both your post count and your desire to be investigated. I thought these were linked and part of your strategy:



Meeko, you subbed in on Dec 15th during Day2, this first quote from the scum thread was from Night2 on Dec 17th.

This: was from Night 3

This: was from Night 5.

This: and this: were from Night 6.

So I don't see how "all of these statements come either BEFORE or AFTER the game proper."

You intentionally changed your play style and post quantity in that game, brought it up on numerous occasions in the scum thread and, after the game had finished, in the general thread. If you intention wasn't explicitly to attract a Cop investigation (thus semi-confirming you as town), what were your intentions with this ploy?

You have to agree that I had reasons to be "pinged" by your low post count yesterDay given the above.

We agree that I Wanted to be investigated in that game. We differ on the point that you apparently believe I succeeded in carrying out some plan.

Re-reading what Drain said in that game, I am reminded how bad I felt about that. That is, I knew I wouldn't do what was suggested there.

I find it interesting, that you are using my words in this game, on a few quotes of mine, to extend to other quotes.

You add on quotes of mine, from Nights 3, 5, and 6. I did not make a comment on THOSE quotes. You feel free to attribute my previous comments in this game, on to additional quotes, OUT OF CONTEXT.


So I don't see how "all of these statements come either BEFORE or AFTER the game proper."


They don't. ""All"" refers to all of the statements that Ed asked about. Not the ones you are cherry picking.


You intentionally changed your play style and post quantity in that game, brought it up on numerous occasions in the scum thread and, after the game had finished, in the general thread. If you intention wasn't explicitly to attract a Cop investigation (thus semi-confirming you as town), what were your intentions with this ploy?

Here's the deal. I feel I can say anything at this point, and you will use it against me. You've already done it above. I honestly can't remember enough of that game right now.


Here is what I do know :

I don't think it matters much to THIS game.

I think it matters that we are spending this much time on something that doesn't matter.


That is, scum are enjoying this, if not creating it.

[special ed]

So I don't see how "all of these statements come either BEFORE or AFTER the game proper."


They don't. ""All"" refers to all of the statements that Ed asked about. Not the ones you are cherry picking.

2 out of the 3 quotes I gave occurred during the game. They were also repeated by Guiri.

[ShadowFacts]

Vote count:

Oredigger77 (5): voted by GuiriEnEspana [1032], TexCat [1035], special ed [1037], Drain Bead [1039], Tom Scud [1047]

TexCat (1): voted by Meeko [1029]

Tom Scud (1): voted by Mahaloth [1031]

Cookies (0): voted by Rysto [1028, 1051]

[Meeko]

Reluctantly :

Unvote TexCat

You might be mason, might not. No space to argue that anymore.

However, I fear a wagon coming on. Not sure who is going to lead it, but my vote will be for that person, at that time.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Are you fearing a wagon against you, Meeko or any wagon? What constitutes a wagon?

Vote Tom for all of the reasons I used yesterDay, with a bit more emphasis on why his record stuck out at me. I'm also a bit surprised that he has not commented as to any implications of my claim. And losing the race to the noose with Chronos yesterday is another angle that doesn't necessarily shine favorably on him.

[Tom Scud]

Honestly, I'm feeling kind of burned out on Mafia at this point - I've played 5 or 6 games now, I think, and aside from one game where I withdrew on Day 1, my team has lost every time. Not seeing a lot of reward for putting in the effort.

But yeah, I do believe your Mason claim - moreso because neither you nor TexCat were under serious pressure. But I don't see how that makes your case notably stronger; because I voted 2 Masons on day 1? How the hell was I supposed to know that? I had my reasons in both cases; heck, you've said yourself that you would have been voting TexCat; does that mean you're scummy?

My response to Mahaloth's vote is basically the same: I have voted for the player I've found most suspicious, except when I've voted tactically for the player I've found relatively most suspicious among the vote leaders (this includes my Kelly vote on Day 1 and my self-defense vote yesterday).

[Meeko]

Are you fearing a wagon against you, Meeko or any wagon? What constitutes a wagon?

I fear I might have misspoke about a previous game, in this game.

Not that that game has any bearing on this game,
Not that my memory of that game is 100% perfect
Not that I can recall of all of it, as it happened,
Not that I can recall it happened how I wanted it to
Not that I can draw the line between actions and thoughts that happened by me in that game.

[It is hard to argue that you wanted something to happen in thought only, versus in thought and action.]

I feel the ""case"" that is, or will be made of this, against me will be very weak. It assumes somewhere down the line, that I have that much control over other people's actions. Short of a politician-type role, which is different than what I am expressing here, I think it is ..... interesting to look at a past game for distractions to pollute this game with.


Not that anyone else in that game, or ever, could do that much better than me.


I just feel that people are digging and digging and digging to come up with something, anything to get rid of me.

Wagon? I guess that kinda is.

I told the game that I was looking for, and have found work. Not that I worked much last week, but I don't think the game would care that much for my personal life and schedule.


I need to post less in all games. I have found something to occupy some of my time with. It (hopefully) will start to pay. Mafia doesn't pay. So I'm gonna favor one over the other, up to the point where I will need Mafia to "break" from work.

[Meeko]

Honestly, I'm feeling kind of burned out on Mafia at this point

Glad to know it's not just me.

[special ed]

Meeko, why are you defending yourself from a case that hasn't even been made?

Is anyone voting for you?

If you are Town, you should be more concerned with finding Scum than with defending yourself, especially with no one voting for you.

I don't even see a case being built. 1 person was pinged by you for a legitimate reason. Then yu've gone on and on defending yourself against a little ping. This is where you're digging a hole for yourself. Your facts aren't right and people are just stating that you're wrong, not Scum...just wrong.

You're taking your paranoia and whining to a new level.

Stop being defensive and start helpiong us find Scum, please.

[MHaye]

[OOG notice]

My game time will be a little restricted from Wednesday this week to Wednesday next week, as my fiancee is coming over for a visit. Not only do I want to spend time with her, she sometimes wants to use the computer herself – and when she's on I can't be.

I'll keep up with the game though.

[/OOG notice]

The Mason claim.
Making a false Mason claim is an inherently risky thing for an Infiltrator to do. In order to make it believable, there have to be at least two living players making the claim; if one person claims they were Masons with a dead group, why would we accept it? Unsupported claims are always justifiably met with scepticism. With two players tied together, one counterclaiming player will reveal both of them as liars. Thus drawing a true mason counterclaim is only helpful in one limited set of circumstances – where the game is at LyLo, when a single mislynch wins.

I've made a false Mason claim once, in Ragnarok Mafia. We were (iirc) fairly sure that there were no Masons to make a counterclaim though. Most of the time I had my heart in my mouth wondering when we'd be exposed – even though we had a firm grasp on the Detective, who had been exposed on Day 2.

At this point, I think we can afford to accept the claim, provisionally. There are, I think, only four players who have not posted since DarkCookies claimed (excluding me) and no-one has counterclaimed yet.

That means we have an “unknown pool” of eleven players that must house the Infiltrators, out of which I can eliminate only myself.

I haven't seen anything since Yesterday that makes me less suspicious of Oredigger.

Vote Oredigger77

More later.

[Drain Bead]

The only time a false mason claim is worth it is if we're a) at LyLo, b) have a chance of lynching Scum instead of Town, and possibly c) the Scum are relatively certain that we have no REAL Masons. I don't think we're at LyLo, although we've lost enough Town that the possibility exists sooner rather than later. As such, I'm willing to accept the Mason claim.

I kinda long for the double-voting of Cecil Pond right now, because I'm somewhat concerned about the abandoning of the case against Tom Scud. Not sure why someone who came a couple votes away from the lynch yesterDay is being abandoned almost completely for Oredigger, and I'm voting for Oredigger. I think Tom pointing out the typo thing is interesting, but even if Digger turns up Scum, I don't think we can overlook the fact that Tom may be going for a bussing by pointing that out.

Also, I want to point out that when the thread turns into the Meeko and ed show, we all suffer for it. Basically the entire last page has been like reading the teachers from Charlie Brown. I know they're saying actual words, but all I'm hearing is "wah wah wah wah wah wah." My eyes are glazing over, guys. Seriously, knock it off. Meeko, stop taking everything so personally. ed, stop poking at it over and over and over. It's like teaching a pig to sing. It wastes all our time and just annoys the pig.

[special ed]

Also, I want to point out that when the thread turns into the Meeko and ed show, we all suffer for it. Basically the entire last page has been like reading the teachers from Charlie Brown. I know they're saying actual words, but all I'm hearing is "wah wah wah wah wah wah." My eyes are glazing over, guys. Seriously, knock it off. Meeko, stop taking everything so personally. ed, stop poking at it over and over and over. It's like teaching a pig to sing. It wastes all our time and just annoys the pig.

Do you think I'm doing this the same as I have in previous games?

I'd like to hear your response because I think having you point it out is interesting.

[Meeko]

My eyes are glazing over, guys. Seriously, knock it off. Meeko, stop taking everything so personally. ed, stop poking at it over and over and over. It's like teaching a pig to sing. It wastes all our time and just annoys the pig.

I'm not sure what good calling me a pig would do.

[Meeko]

Do you think I'm doing this the same as I have in previous games?

I'd like to hear your response because I think having you point it out is interesting.

The pig stops chewing at the troth, looks up at Ed and opens his mouth agape, for the pig sure thought Ed was continuing on in his consistent forever and always "hate meeko" fashion.

[special ed]

The pig stops chewing at the troth, looks up at Ed and opens his mouth agape, for the pig sure thought Ed was continuing on in his consistent forever and always "hate meeko" fashion.

no, I've left much of what you've said alone. In this game, I've pointed things out, and then left them for others to discuss instead of repeatedly trying to understand you and get you to understand me.

I've also tried not to insult you or ascribe emotions to you. I don't hate you. I've repeatedly told you that I don't hate you. If you've ever gotten that impression from me, I again apologize, but from this point on, the problem is really yours and not mine. I've been very clear on the matter. Any other discussion you'd like to have about my emotions will have to occur out of the game.

[Drain Bead]

Do you think I'm doing this the same as I have in previous games?

I'd like to hear your response because I think having you point it out is interesting.

It's not as bad, but I wanted to head off the typical multiple-page back-and-forth at the pass. At this point, I think riling up Meeko is anti-Town regardless of whether or not he's Town or Scum. He always reacts in the same way no matter what, so getting him pissed off is a null tell, and all it does is fill the thread with noise. Your poking gets him going, and then other people can't help but get involved, and it all turns into a total trainwreck that really isn't very fun for anyone. Don't look at this as a defense of Meeko--I'm at the point where I skim most of his posts unless it's absolutely necessary, because I found a long time ago that trying to comprehend what he was getting at is futile for me--and that was when we were on the same team! When I have no idea as to his alignment, it becomes Sisyphean.

[Zeriel]

I have a family medical problem that's been preventing me from having time to give this game what I need to. That said, I'm still reading it when I have time, just not cogitating on it to any great extent yet. I don't want a sub, I'm just letting y'all know.

[Oredigger77]

I guess I have no choice at this point. Unfortunately, I am guilty of almost everything I’ve been accused of. I’ve been trying to lay low enough to avoid a Night kill but contribute enough to avoid a lynch. I did type my claim and managed to include a typo that I thought for sure the scum would pick up. So I’ve been self protecting so far. That’s right I’m;

You are Harvey Crushing (Physician). You win with the Town.
You are the Doctor. Submit the name of the person you want to protect by PM before the end of each Night.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Cushing

As far as the not voting thing I was moving across the country and pretty much missed the first Day, so no excuse there but it wasn’t game related.

Since my role seemed tied to name I figured that the scum’s were as well which led to my earlier comments about name and role being what the scum were using to select their Night kills and my fears about the name claim but the benefits of locking in out roles. Apparently, based on the mason claim not everyone’s role is tied to their name but that’s what I’ve had to work with.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

I guess I have no choice at this point. Unfortunately, I am guilty of almost everything I’ve been accused of. I’ve been trying to lay low enough to avoid a Night kill but contribute enough to avoid a lynch. I did type my claim and managed to include a typo that I thought for sure the scum would pick up. So I’ve been self protecting so far. That’s right I’m;
I suppose it would be anti-town to point out your latest typo?

Both claimed masons have characters that actually were freemasons. Funnily enough George Washington was also a mason...

[Mahaloth]

Oredigger, if you are a doctor, who have you protected and do you know if they receive a confirmation PM of that?

[Rysto]

Thank you, Oredigger, for simplifying my life considerably. I've already been considering doing this, and now I can out scum in the bargain.

You are Albert Schweitzer (Physician). You win with the Town.
Each night you may attempt to protect another player.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Schweizer

The reasons I've been considering claiming are twofold: First, I've been quite indiscreet. I pushed way too hard on the "story's role was Detective so he was a cop" thing. I think that I would have done the same thing as vanilla, but from the scum perspective that was just screaming "power role". I think that there's a good chance that scum already knew that I was a power role.

The other reason I've been thinking of claiming stems from my involvement in designing Hoopy's all-PFK game that we'll be running on Idle Mafia in a couple of months. One of our big problems in designing that game were the doctors. A PFK doctor who can self-protect is more-or-less invincible; only the lynch can touch him. It made me realize that the exact same thing applies to a doctor in normal mafia. With both our Cop and Vig gone, I'm thinking that this is a great opportunity to put that theory into practice. I'm going to self-protect myself to end-game and there's nothing the scum can do about it.

Vote Oredigger

[GuiriEnEspaña]

You are Albert Schweitzer (Physician). You win with the Town.
Each night you may attempt to protect another player.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Schweizer
I'm going to self-protect myself to end-game and there's nothing the scum can do about it.
That's doesn't seem to be an option based on your role PM. Interesting.
Have you asked sachertorte what he means by "attempt to protect"?

[Rysto]

That's doesn't seem to be an option based on your role PM. Interesting.
I clarified that with sach right away. I can self-protect, and have been doing so since the start of the game.

Have you asked sachertorte what he means by "attempt to protect"?
sach has refused to even acknowledge my questions on that.

[Meeko]

I'm at the point where I skim most of his posts unless it's absolutely necessary, because I found a long time ago that trying to comprehend what he was getting at is futile for me--and that was when we were on the same team!

And this is exactly why Mafia is broken.

Can someone tell me why I should still play ANY mafia game with you guys?

I mean, FUCK. I could tell you that I was a Cop*, and tell you exactly who to vote for, and we could turn this game around.

Instead, we get a game that looks a lot like the last game, were scum just totally smeared us.

No wonder we deserve to lose.

* and no, I'm not a Cop. Just an example on why tying one hand behind your back sucks in Mafia, at Town especially.

[Meeko]

I'm going to self-protect myself to end-game and there's nothing the scum can do about it.


Gee. I wasn't looking for more proof on how this game could be broken, but I guess I just found it.

[Rysto]

Yeah, so Meeko just shot right up to second on my list. You sound pretty upset to learn that there's a townie you can't get rid of, Meeko.

[Mahaloth]

Gee. I wasn't looking for more proof on how this game could be broken, but I guess I just found it.

1. Really? I don't see how a doctor self-protecting would break the game. A scum team can lynch him on the last day if they can't kill him at Night. Or they could lynch someone else to give them number control. It's not that hard to follow.

:confused:

2. Well, at least something has happened. Finally, a claim and a counter claim. Either Oredigger or Rysto is lying, so I know I'm going to re-evaluate who my vote is on. I haven't decided yet, but I think it is obvious that I will:

Unvote Tom

I still think he's behaving scummy, but Oredigger or Rysto is the better vote. I'm leaning toward Oredigger, but haven't decided yet.

[TexCat]

My vote is going to remain on Oredigger. If he is scum, he has a lot of motivation to false-claim. He exposes our real doc and he might even avoid a lynch temporarily. If Rysto were scum, why would he counter-claim?

Rysto, have you considered that the scum might have a role-blocker and can block and kill you? It's not like their role-blocker will have anyone better to block. You can always hope that their role-blocker is Oredigger. ;)

[Mahaloth]

Yeah, I can't figure why Rysto would false counter-claim.

Vote Oredigger

[Red Skeezix]

There are a couple of options why Rysto might false counter claim, but they venture into increasingly unlikely scenarios. The only even remotely plausible one that I can think of is this:

With the vig and cop presumably dead, an outed doctor would be difficult for scum to night kill. Counter claiming 95% of the time means the original claimant gets lynched. Forcing a doc lynch means that there would likely be nothing to stop scum from killing whoever it is most advantageous for them to kill, with no hope of protection.

I guess if this is the case, it's a risk I'm willing to take. My gut impulse is to lynch Oredigger, and then lynch Rysto if it turns out Oredigger was not lying.

vote Oredigger

[Oredigger77]

I suppose it would be anti-town to point out your latest typo?

Both claimed masons have characters that actually were freemasons. Funnily enough George Washington was also a mason...
Fair enough, I didn’t realize they were masons and it was screwing with me. As far as the typo that’s what happens when you just auto accept spell check changes.

Oredigger, if you are a doctor, who have you protected and do you know if they receive a confirmation PM of that?
I have only self protected and have received no confirmations that my protections went through.

Thank you, Oredigger, for simplifying my life considerably. I've already been considering doing this, and now I can out scum in the bargain.

Interesting, well, at least we’ll get one scum along with my lynch. I do like the game theory aspect and I’m looking forward to reading how you guys came up with it.

Vote Rysto

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

[quoth Skeezix]
Counter claiming 95% of the time means the original claimant gets lynched.[/quote]

Cite?

[Red Skeezix]

[quoth Skeezix]
Counter claiming 95% of the time means the original claimant gets lynched.

Cite?[/QUOTE]

No cite, just my observation. Out of countless counter claims, I've seen 2 that I can recall where the original claimant was not lynched. One was because both players claimed a 3rd party role and one was vigged, and the other was due to a mix up in terminology. But I will admit that my experience is limited to < 20 games so it could just be sample bias.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'm still not able to shake my suspicions of Rysto, in spite of his counter claim. The case against Oredigger hasn't filled me with confidence either. I'm leaving my vote on Tom for now and reviewing them each with the patent-pending ScumAssumption (tm) view.

Because I'm a glutton for punishment, I'm going to hazard a guess that what Meeko means here:

I'm going to self-protect myself to end-game and there's nothing the scum can do about it.

Gee. I wasn't looking for more proof on how this game could be broken, but I guess I just found it.

is that he thinks such a claim could be convenient cover for a scum who is actually not going to be killed because he's scum, not because he's pro-town and self protecting. Similar to his frustrations with my Mason claim on behalf of myself and Texcat. Until someone dies, there's nothing concrete.

Am I right? Do I get a prize???

[special ed]

Thank you, Oredigger, for simplifying my life considerably. I've already been considering doing this, and now I can out scum in the bargain.

Is that your full PM?

[Drain Bead]

Because I'm a glutton for punishment, I'm going to hazard a guess that what Meeko means here:





is that he thinks such a claim could be convenient cover for a scum who is actually not going to be killed because he's scum, not because he's pro-town and self protecting. Similar to his frustrations with my Mason claim on behalf of myself and Texcat. Until someone dies, there's nothing concrete.

Am I right? Do I get a prize???

If that's the case, then the only way that works is if we don't have a doctor at all and we have two Scum false-claiming Doc! Because if Digger comes up Doc, Rysto clearly dies tomorrow. And if Digger is Scum, then the only way that Rysto lives is if we don't have a doctor to counterclaim HIM. So Rysto saying that he's going to self-protect all the way home means dick-all after Digger flips.

[Drain Bead]

Also, how does one do auto spell-check on this board? I attempted to make a reply and do it myself, just to test Digger's latest claim, but I couldn't figure out how to enable it. On other boards I post at, it's a clickable box at the bottom of the page. That box doesn't appear for me here.

[Mahaloth]

Am I right? Do I get a prize???

I took it that he means that if a doctor self protects every Night, he'll never lose and town will win. But I must be wrong about him thinking that.

[Rysto]

is that he thinks such a claim could be convenient cover for a scum who is actually not going to be killed because he's scum, not because he's pro-town and self protecting. Similar to his frustrations with my Mason claim on behalf of myself and Texcat. Until someone dies, there's nothing concrete.
I don't see why that would cause Meeko to proclaim this game broken.

Is that your full PM?
Yes.

[Meeko]

Yeah, so Meeko just shot right up to second on my list. You sound pretty upset to learn that there's a townie you can't get rid of, Meeko.

No.

I'm upset that No one cares what I do in this, or in any other game. I could say that Mary had a little lamb, and no one would even quote it.

At least that is where I am currently.

This Game, capital G, is broken because it can only work if Town plays as a team. This game has confirmed previous games. There is no guarantee town will do what is best for town, even when there is a flashing neon sign.

This direct game is broken because We have one player who pretty much is going to barricade off one corner of the game and sit the coming Nuclear Holocaust out, while the rest of town suffers. We have another player, who if she is Town, pretty much admitted that would rather be less informed over being fully informed, and could care less what other town members do.

Scum on a good day can screw Town.

Once Town starts screwing town 24/7 we stand no chance. a Selfish Doctor and players who admit to skimming are why this game is broken

No wonder people are burnned on Mafia. Too much personal ego shit.

[Meeko]

Am I right? Do I get a prize???

Nope.

See my above. Town needs to play as a team. Only then do we stand a chance against scum.

It's one thing to self protect every single night. But do you have to tell the entire game?

There is a LOT of bad thinking in Mafia, everything from selfish power roles to scum busing scum for town cred.

Frankly, Mafia requires a certain level of intelligence. I assumed that everyone who played had it. I wonder now if anyone has it.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

No prize :(

I just have to say that I'm wistful and nostalgic for the days when the concept of a self-protecting doctor wasn't somehow a sign of our pending doom. It is a perfectly viable strategy, and one that is usually mitigated by giving the scum tools with which to dismantle it, like a roleblocker.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Scum-bussing scum is bad thinking? Not if it works...

[Meeko]

is that he thinks such a claim could be convenient cover for a scum who is actually not going to be killed because he's scum, not because he's pro-town and self protecting. Similar to his frustrations with my Mason claim on behalf of myself and Texcat. Until someone dies, there's nothing concrete.


1. In general Interesting point here Cookies. I agree there is space here to move for scum to say "I am Doctor, and I am going to hoard my power all to myself, my precious!"

1b.Which kinda in turn becomes a dare to the rest of Town "I dare you to vote me, because that is going to be the only way to kill me. And if you dare to lynch someone who has "claimed" doctor, then we can turn a wagon on you so fast...."

1c. One wonders if there isn't a Scum Doctor.

---

2. But Then again, this was NOT my original stance on it, Cookies.

2b. Could Cookies be trying to put words in my mouth for later?

2c. Is Cookies trying to send a message out to someone?

---

3. if Rysto is Scum, how do we go about lynching him in a way that doesn't make each of us wagon bait for other scum?

---

Would seem that the vote is down to two people. A Claim and a Counter Claim. I've been busy with other parts of the game that I didn't realize this. Vote forthcoming.

[Meeko]

Scum-bussing scum is bad thinking? Not if it works...

It's sub optimal. It sacrifices long term for short term, with no guarantee that it will solidify victory.

[Oredigger77]

3. if Rysto is Scum, how do we go about lynching him in a way that doesn't make each of us wagon bait for other scum?

The obvious way is when I come up town to lynch him and then look at the people who voted for him toDay. I'm pretty obviously dead so the scum have no reason to jump on my wagon instead they can build cred by voting for Rysto.

I think toDay will give a lot of information and I should be albe to get one scum for sure toMorrow and then you guys should be able to data mine for probably one more from toDay's voting.

I'll try and get a look in on Rysto toDay since he thinks that he's been growing on the scum radar he must have been making some keen observations but I hadn't noticed him seeing to what I consider the heart of the matter so far.

Oh, Drain I spell check my posts in Word no through Explorer.

[Meeko]

Vote Rysto.


I don't really like either claim. However, I think the entire exchange is WIFOM / Scum would never do that.

Rysto comes on with the "I am going to self protect for the rest of the game" and I think that it's a dare at least, hubris at best.

It boils down to something I can't put my finger on. It's close to the same "gut feeling" as others have said for Digger. Yet, in a few games that I have played in, I have made a move that wasn't predictable. I make that move, and later retract it.

Those types of moves that I am talking about, usually net scum, before I take them back. Let's hope this is one of those moves, sans the taking it back part*.

* Not against taking it back, but I'm not sure what it would take to get me to move off of it.

[Tom Scud]

Right. Only way I can see Rysto being scum is if we're at LyLo, which would imply a 6 person scum team (or maybe a scum politician or some other outre weirdness), in which case I would want to have some words with sach about how he balanced the game.

As far as Red's speculation, even if the Scum were willing to trade one of their own to get rid of the doc, why would they give up a Scum who has thus far received only a single, solitary Day 1 vote and a bit of pressure from one other player? (Plus Meeko's vote now, but that comes after the claim).

Obviously, if Digger somehow flips Town Doctor, I'll have to reevaluate, but I certainly see no reason to shift my vote now.

[special ed]

I guess I have no choice at this point. Unfortunately, I am guilty of almost everything I’ve been accused of. I’ve been trying to lay low enough to avoid a Night kill but contribute enough to avoid a lynch. I did type my claim and managed to include a typo that I thought for sure the scum would pick up. So I’ve been self protecting so far. That’s right I’m;

If you were Town and you were self-protecting, wouldn't you actually want to be the Scum kill target?

I can see trying to avoid a NK. I can see self-protecting. But to have the thought to do both doesn't really make sense, does it?

[Drain Bead]

ed, I couldn't articulate what pinged me about that post until you said it.

A tangentially related point is that if Digger made the typo on purpose, which he may or may not be implying there, with the point of the Scum noticing it, we probably should have had a no-kill Night at some point. Even if he didn't make the typo on purpose, if the Scum saw it, they should have attempted to kill him. So we can assume one of three things. Either the Scum didn't notice the typo, or they noticed it but decided it was meaningless, or Digger is Scum and covering his ass. The first is unlikely (no doubt Scum were poring over the claims with a fine toothed comb to decide who to kill), the second highly improbable (if I were Scum and found a typo in the claim of a player I knew to be Town, I'd be on it like white on rice). The third seems to be the most likely of all.

[Rysto]

First of all, I'm a lot less suspicious of Meeko in light of his response to me above. First of all, if he were scum it would have been very easy for him to take the out that Cookies offer him. Secondly, my first impression upon reading his response was that he was using the term "broken" in a way that was consistent with his usage in Crimson Glyph and Cecil Pond. However, now I can't remember why I had that impression. I'm going to defer that question until a time when I'm not half-asleep.


Next, look sach, red!
Day One

peekercpa (4): Zeriel 151 190, TexCat 314 356, Chronos 360, Meeko 383, Freudian Slit 478, Mahaloth 482
KellyCriterion (3): NAF1138 313, Jimmy Chitwood 484, Tom Scud 571
Chronos (3): storyteller0910 416 564, peekercpa 450, storyteller0910 590, MHaye 591
Drain Bead (2): Zeriel 560, special ed 565
TexCat (1): Red Skeezix 316, Tom Scud 328 571, peekercpa 346 450
Oredigger77 (1): Drain Bead 347
Red Skeezix (1): TexCat 356, Freudian Slit 364 478
Zeriel (1): storyteller0910 564 567, One And Only Wanderers 570
Rysto (1): GuiriEnEspaña 576
Freudian Slit (1): Rysto 577
NAF1138 (0): One And Only Wanderers 179 288, KellyCriterion 242 244
storyteller0910 (0): peekercpa 116 201
One And Only Wanderers (0): Chronos 180 360, Jimmy Chitwood 184, Meeko 220 291
Mahaloth (0): Meeko 291 298
Not Voting (2) : KellyCriterion, Oredigger77

Day Two

One And Only Wanderers (8): Jimmy Chitwood 757, Oredigger77 760, Freudian Slit 763, Mahaloth 815, GuiriEnEspaña 855, Drain Bead 865, Zeriel 874, Chronos 882
Freudian Slit (8): Rysto 655, Meeko 666, Tom Scud 783, Red Skeezix 835, special ed 861, OAOW 871, TexCat 880, MHaye 885
Mahaloth (1): storyteller0910 833
Jimmy Chitwood (0): Oredigger 717 734, One And Only Wanderers 751 871, TexCat 795 880
Drain Bead (0): Zeriel 715 874
GuiriEnEspaña (0): Chronos 803 882
TexCat (0): Tom Scud 706 783
Tom Scud (0): Mahaloth 787 815
Meeko (0): Freudian Slit 651 763

Day Three

Chronos (7): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, GuiriEnEspaña 1000, Tom Scud 1002, Rysto 1005, Jimmy Chitwood 1004
Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004 1013
Oredigger77 (2): special ed 995, MHaye 1015
Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941
TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002, Meeko 982


I realize that from everyone else's perspective Oredigger is not confirmed scum, but I'm really starting to get into this game and it looks as though the rest of this Day is likely to be on autopilot. Besides, I'm excited to be able to put some red on this vote chart.

The first thing that jumps out at me are the votes for Oredigger. Drain Bead's Day One vote came relatively early in Day One:
And I think it's interesting how many people assumed it was a slip. Honestly, has anyone here ever played in a game (especially one that purports to be "newbie friendly") where the Scum didn't know who one another were when the game started? That's all that Meeko was saying--that the Scum got the names of the other Scum in their role PM. I suppose it's not a 100% certainty, but it's as close to certain info as any random Town player is going to have at the start of the Day. I can see how maybe, MAYBE, you can misinterpret his second statement to construe that the Scum know what one another's roles are, but I think it's more likely that the plural construction was used to avoid the awkward "he or she" sort of thing. And even then, I think in a lot of cases the Scum DO know what one another's roles are at first--I am pretty sure that the only game I've ever played in where I was Scum and didn't know what roles the other Scum had until Night 1 was Colorless. So all in all, I don't think Meeko was doing anything wrong there.

Not to mention our discussions over the last few games that people who call other people out on supposed PIS slips are more frequently Scum (e.g. Rysto in Cecil Pond). I think I'm comfortable at this point voting for you, and if the last few games are any example, I'll quickly pick up a few votes for this and end up having been right about it the whole time.

vote Oredigger
I'm inclined to give Drain pro-Town points for this one. The peeker bandwagon hadn't really started yet. Drain did miss Oredigger's point -- she basically got his post backwards -- but the reasoning here seems honest. This doesn't clear Drain of being scum in my mind, but it is a point in her favour.


The point that Oredigger raised against Meeko is pretty interesting, too:
I’m kind of curious why OAOW got so many votes for picking up on the spelling error but Meeko dropped what appeared to be PIS and got a pass. Personally I read his original post about the scum knowing all about each other and I thought it was a slip. Of course it's been explained now but I think it's interesting that it was ignored.
I find it very interesting that Oredigger was trying to direct attention right back at Meeko after he explained the "PIS" that really wasn't PIS at all. That's a big point in Meeko's favour. I don't think it likely that scum would have directed attention at fellow scum Day One, before the scum had the opportunity to talk at all(as per the rules (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12242400#post12242400))


Of the Day Three voters, it's harder to say. Oredigger's vote for Chronos came late enough in the Day that it would have been tough for a bandwagon to form against him. special ed basically jumped on him right away, so he gets credit for that. MHaye voted at very nearly the last minute, after a Chronos lynch was assured. MHaye gets no credit for that vote.

Some random thoughts that I have rattling around in my head that I need to come back to when I'm awake enough to think about them:
1) Oredigger made a really poorly supported vote for Chronos over Tom Scud. What does this mean for Tom? Tom needs closer attention.
2) It feels to me as though this Oredigger bandwagon has been rolling on pretty much unopposed since the start of the Day. I need to go back through the Day to see if anybody has tried to get things going in a different direction. Also this needs to be considered when trying to figure out 1).
3) MHaye's late, useless vote may have been an attempt at Townie cred. I need to review MHaye's history in this game

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I still need to do my re-read on Rysto and Ore once I stop pretending to work, but I certainly agree that statement the Ed points out is dubious as all hell.

[special ed]

*snip*

I just wanted to remind myself about the time Drain complained that I didn't find her suspicious earlier.

That with her one-off vote (which I recall being a tactic she used as Scum, I'll have to investigate) has her pinging my scumdar now

[special ed]

And I think it's interesting how many people assumed it was a slip. Honestly, has anyone here ever played in a game (especially one that purports to be "newbie friendly") where the Scum didn't know who one another were when the game started? That's all that Meeko was saying--that the Scum got the names of the other Scum in their role PM. I suppose it's not a 100% certainty, but it's as close to certain info as any random Town player is going to have at the start of the Day. I can see how maybe, MAYBE, you can misinterpret his second statement to construe that the Scum know what one another's roles are, but I think it's more likely that the plural construction was used to avoid the awkward "he or she" sort of thing. And even then, I think in a lot of cases the Scum DO know what one another's roles are at first--I am pretty sure that the only game I've ever played in where I was Scum and didn't know what roles the other Scum had until Night 1 was Colorless. So all in all, I don't think Meeko was doing anything wrong there.

Not to mention our discussions over the last few games that people who call other people out on supposed PIS slips are more frequently Scum (e.g. Rysto in Cecil Pond). I think I'm comfortable at this point voting for you, and if the last few games are any example, I'll quickly pick up a few votes for this and end up having been right about it the whole time.

vote Oredigger



:confused:

Here's her one-off vote, which, I guess, doesn't ping me at all.

I forgot the other thing that brought her to the top of my consciousness was her pointing out my interactions with Meeko. It just strikes me as something a Scum might want to do.

Now, all this is just pinging, I really do need to go have a serious re-read at some point. But let's see if there's a reaction :)

[special ed]

OK, that the Drain is pinging me train of thought just got stopped.

1. She voted for Oredigger on Day 1 with a pretty weak case (almost all Day 1 cases are weak)
2. In looking back at my own vote for Oredigger towards the start of Day 3, it was actually Drain who brought up the issue first. Though,ironically, Drain was voting for Chronos, who Oredigger was casting his vote for.
3. Oredigger had gotten no votes at that point.


OK, pings are back. It does strike me as plausible for a Scum to be casting suspicion on a teammate under no suspicion early.

Here is drain's vote:
Yeah, it definitely looks like Chronos is trying to trump up cases against people. I don't think it makes sense that he missed the "no" in that sentence, because if he did, what he was reading Guiri as saying was patently untrue according to the rules. For me to accept his explanation, I'd have to also accept that Chronos somehow didn't notice that there are no third parties in this game, something that was explained in the rules posting and has been reiterated by quite a few players during the game itself.

vote Chronos

I'm also suspicious of TexCat for the bit of craziness about the flip upthread, but I can't really see a scum motivation behind it--it's not an idea that anyone would expect to gain traction, and could bring a lot of negative attention upon the one who brings it up.

and her is Oredigger's:
I went back and looked through Chronos and in general he's pretty clean. I really can't find anything besides through twisting his statement to mean more then face value. On the other hand I am getting seriously pinged by the things that have been brought up toDAy (missing the non and ignoring arguments but pushing a case).

For now I'm going to vote for him but I'm worried about creating another tie, we have time to break it, but I think the scum keep pushing us into situation where we have two strong candidates while they sit back and laugh.

Vote Chronos

[special ed]

those 3 posts I just made were obviously compiled as I looked at a few things. I apologize that I seemed to be waffling, but I was...um..waffling.

Waffles! It's what's for dinner tonight!

yummy

[sachertorte]

ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (0): Rysto 1028 1051

TexCat (0): Meeko 1029 1110

Tom Scud (1): Mahaloth 1031 1133, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 1111

Oredigger77 (9): GuiriEnEspaña 1032, TexCat 1035, special ed 1037, Drain Bead 1039, Tom Scud 1047, MHaye 1116, Rysto 1127, Mahaloth 1135, Red Skeezix 1136

Rysto (2): Oredigger77 1137, Meeko 1153

[Zeriel]

vote Oredigger

It's always nice to come back to a game and have an exact idea of what to do after a little mini-hiatus.

If Oredigger flips scum, we'll see. I'm inclined to believe with vote timing that he was protecting TomScud on day three, who I thought was scummy anyway.

[Oredigger77]

If you were Town and you were self-protecting, wouldn't you actually want to be the Scum kill target?

I can see trying to avoid a NK. I can see self-protecting. But to have the thought to do both doesn't really make sense, does it?

The way I was looking at it was I was going to self protect until I had an idea of who the power roles were. A great example would be our now outed masons. But once the scum figured out who I was they would try and get me lynched. If they accidentally hit me with a Night kill then they would know who to push for a lynch the next Day. Even if I didn't get lynched it would be better to stay off of the scum’s radar so I would have to play WIFOM with them for the rest of the game with my protection.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

Is that your full PM?
@ Special Ed, why did you ask? I noticed yet another typo (in the wiki link) and I expected it to include "You are the doctor" but I suppose the profession of Physician and power stated gives a clear enough idea... Did you notice something missing in the PM?

@ Rysto, knowing your character was directly linked to your role, why did you suggest the name claim? I'm sure you realized you were going to have to false claim. In your vote analysis, is there any reason why you felt confident enough to put OreDigger's name in red but not your own in green?

[Rysto]

@ Rysto, knowing your character was directly linked to your role, why did you suggest the name claim? I'm sure you realized you were going to have to false claim.
Yes, I did. I figured that:
a) The discussion was inevitable so we might as well get it started as early as possible as an icebreaker
b) I knew that I could easily claim a fake name so it wasn't a big problem for me
c) I figured that if I have to fake a claim, it was very possible that the scum would have to fake a claim, and that might help us
d) It was possible that a mass claim could help a detective. In Batman, for example, the scum were all given names that were very obviously aligned with the scum(they were also given safe fake claims to use). There was also a cop role that could get the real name of any player. I figured that something similar could exist in this game, and then a mass claim would really help out such a cop role.

In your vote analysis, is there any reason why you felt confident enough to put OreDigger's name in red but not your own in green?
I didn't put my name in green because of Pleonast in YSI. Long story short, Pleonast was scum in YSI and used a vote analysis technique. He was putting his own name in green, as it was, and that biased his results terribly. It allowed him to basically make honest arguments that pointed to townies as being scum. Ever since that, I've viewed any arguments based on that person knowing that they're Town as being very dubious, and often scummy. Because of that, I'm pretty wary of asserting that I'm Town when it's not proven(even though it will be very likely when Oredigger flips).

[special ed]

@ Special Ed, why did you ask? I noticed yet another typo (in the wiki link) and I expected it to include "You are the doctor" but I suppose the profession of Physician and power stated gives a clear enough idea... Did you notice something missing in the PM?

I know I had a thought in mind aside from the typo, but I can't for the life of me remember.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Rysto, a question while I continue to re-read everything you and Oredigger have said:

What do you make of the case against Tom? My primary reason for being suspicious of you was the holes you were poking in my pre-claim case against him. Since all of your poking points against my pre-claim case were valid, I may just be punishing you for being a good rational Townie at the time. But now that two corroborating Mason claims are on the table, what do you think about Tom?

The same question applies to everyone else too. Tom narrowly escaped the noose and instead Chronos the Townie was lynched. The new information introduced to the game (should you be willing to believe our Mason claims even if but for a moment) since the Tom was almost lynched was that we lynched a Townie instead and that Tom has a track record of building cases against apparent Masons. The new information paints a worse picture for Tom than before. Yet here we are not talking about him at all.

[Rysto]

Cookies, I still have the same opinion about your case. Now that I know that you and TexCat are both masons, to be honest I think that you've OMGUSed him a bit.

However, just because I disagree with your reasoning doesn't mean that your conclusion was necessarily wrong. Drain OMGUSed me Day Two of Cecil Pond and I was scum, even though the reasoning wasn't very good. As I noted above, I intend to take a much closer look at Tom as a result of the close vote yesterDay, especially given that Oredigger's biggest crime was a very poor vote for Chronos over Tom.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'm less interested in your opinion about my particular case against Tom as I am about your (and others') opinion on the collective case against Tom.

And color me confused if you don't consider Oredigger's claim that you're currently countering as something worth voting for him over, or am I misunderstanding what you meant by his vote against Chronos as his 'biggest crime'?

[Rysto]

What I meant was, the major reason that led to Oredigger getting his votes toDay was his actions yesterDay. He's only picked up a couple more votes since my counter-claim.

[TexCat]

I was originally suspicious of Tom on mostly gut, but I thought it might be OMGUS. I can't say that I haven't wanted him gone. He's been like a little yapping terrier nipping at my heels the entire game. I will point out that Tom was one that pointed out the misspelling in Oredigger's claim, and was one of the early voters for Oredigger. Of course, I'm guessing that Oredigger noticed the typo before any of us did and they have talked about it in the scum forum. So it could be part of a bussing Oredigger plan. And it is strange that Tom noticed it when he did, after only tunneling me every day.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I guess I see it as your claim as likely being a major reason why votes are staying on him, regardless of why they were there originally or where they might have been moved to if you hadn't claimed as you did. It may be a subtle distinction, but one worth making.

[TexCat]

NETA: I know that Tom will reply that he wasn't tunneling me every day, and perhaps he might be right, but I will reply that it sure felt like it from this end and I have the terrier bites to show for it.

[TexCat]

I guess I see it as your claim as likely being a major reason why votes are staying on him, regardless of why they were there originally or where they might have been moved to if you hadn't claimed as you did. It may be a subtle distinction, but one worth making.

I was actually previewing an unvote Oredigger post when Rysto claimed. I certainly would have move my vote had there not been a counter-claim.

[special ed]

I was actually previewing an unvote Oredigger post when Rysto claimed. I certainly would have move my vote had there not been a counter-claim.

What was the message going to say? Did you have a new place to move your vote at the time?

[Drain Bead]

I do find it curious that nobody's talking about Tom (in fact, I think I mentioned that in an earlier post toDay) but seeing as we now have competing claims, it makes sense that nobody's talking about Tom. Of course, there's little to be gained at this point from hashing out the competing claims repeatedly--the Day is about to end and then we'll know what's going on there--we can discuss them, but it seems more productive to start planning for the next Day, and what to do if Oredigger turns up Scum. Obviously, we know what to do if he turns up Town. ;)

[Mahaloth]

I do find it curious that nobody's talking about Tom (in fact, I think I mentioned that in an earlier post toDay) but seeing as we now have competing claims, it makes sense that nobody's talking about Tom. Of course, there's little to be gained at this point from hashing out the competing claims repeatedly--the Day is about to end and then we'll know what's going on there--we can discuss them, but it seems more productive to start planning for the next Day, and what to do if Oredigger turns up Scum. Obviously, we know what to do if he turns up Town. ;)

Well, Tom has by no means dropped off my radar. I've voted for him quite a bit, but with Oredigger getting a counter-claim thrown at him, I just think lynching Oredigger is better for toDay.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

I do find it curious that nobody's talking about Tom (in fact, I think I mentioned that in an earlier post toDay) but seeing as we now have competing claims, it makes sense that nobody's talking about Tom.
Drain, the exchange of posts between Cookies, Rysto and TexCat from 1169 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12343520&postcount=1169) to 1175 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12343778&postcount=1175) is a brief discussion between our 3 most likely townies almost exclusively about Tom. What are you trying to imply by your statement?

[Tom Scud]

I do find it curious that nobody's talking about Tom (in fact, I think I mentioned that in an earlier post toDay) but seeing as we now have competing claims, it makes sense that nobody's talking about Tom.

In fact, everyone who voted for me Yesterday and was around to vote today before the competing claims DID vote for me. So it's not like there was some mysterious move away from me - just that the uncommitteds found the case against Oredigger more compelling.

Also, at the very least Cookies, TexCat, Rysto, you, Mahaloth, and Zeriel HAVE talked about me. I think ed did as well. I'm not sure if this is OMGUS, but I'm getting a bit pinged by your "why isn't anyone ELSE getting on Tom's case" thing.

[Tom Scud]

Crossed posts with Guiri there.

[Tom Scud]

On TexCat: I still don't really understand how her various posts about the value/lack-of-value in making a quoted name claim versus a plain text name claim are consistent, but obviously this was just me reading too much into a handful of posts. Sorry to make you uncomfortable, TexCat, but I was genuinely suspicious of you.

[Drain Bead]

Drain, the exchange of posts between Cookies, Rysto and TexCat from 1169 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12343520&postcount=1169) to 1175 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12343778&postcount=1175) is a brief discussion between our 3 most likely townies almost exclusively about Tom. What are you trying to imply by your statement?

I was actually weighing in on that discussion, specifically responding to the Cookies post that started it all.

[TexCat]

On TexCat: I still don't really understand how her various posts about the value/lack-of-value in making a quoted name claim versus a plain text name claim are consistent, but obviously this was just me reading too much into a handful of posts. Sorry to make you uncomfortable, TexCat, but I was genuinely suspicious of you.

Not a problem. ;) Obviously you weren't the only one suspicious of me, though perhaps the most consistent.

[sachertorte]

From the Rules:
The moderator will not prod anyone. Failure to participate will result in substitution/removal.
also:
Past Day Four's Dawn, missing players will be removed from the game with no public indication of role or alignment.

MHaye has been removed from the game.
Zeriel has been removed from the game.

--------------------------------------------

In other news, a strong contingent settled on Oredigger77. So strong I'm baffled by why no one wondered why the vote is so nearly unanimous.

ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (0): Rysto 1028 1051

TexCat (0): Meeko 1029 1110

Tom Scud (1): Mahaloth 1031 1133, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 1111

Oredigger77 (10): GuiriEnEspaña 1032, TexCat 1035, special ed 1037, Drain Bead 1039, Tom Scud 1047, MHaye 1116, Rysto 1127, Mahaloth 1135, Red Skeezix 1136, Zeriel 1164

Rysto (2): Oredigger77 1137, Meeko 1153

The town scanned Oredigger77 for signs of his alignment.
They found many wonderful things that were red and yellow and green and brown
Scarlet and black and ocher and peach
And ruby and olive and violet and fawn
And lilac and gold and chocolate and mauve
And cream and crimson and silver and rose
And azure and lemon and russet and grey
And purple and white and pink and orange
And Blue!

None of which helped determining Oredigger's alignment.
Oredigger77 (President) is dead.
Oredigger77 (President) is dead.
Oredigger77 (President) is dead.
Oredigger77 (President) is dead.
Oredigger77 (President) is dead.
Oredigger77 (President) is dead.
Oredigger77 (President) is dead.
Oredigger77 (President) is dead.

Which is it?
The seventh one, obviously.
Oh, that's why.

[Rysto]

I do not know how a Day in which we caught scum could possibly have gone worse.

[Rysto]

However, the fact that Oredigger was a President and not a Physician is a pretty good indication that he was, in fact, scum.

[Tom Scud]

Uh, the seventh one is red. Go town!

Also, harsh mod is harsh. Wow.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

I was actually weighing in on that discussion, specifically responding to the Cookies post that started it all.
Ah, sorry. I didn't read your post that way at all.

On preview, yeah!!! We got one!!! Go town!!!

I can only hope one of either MHaye and Zeriel was Scum and so the overall balance of the game isn't affected.

[Meeko]

I think we should re-name this game Sach and the technicolor role coat.

Did Digger alternate roles? What does that mean for other players?

I thought this was noob friendly.

[Oredigger77]

No surprise there. Go Team!!!

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Good job guys. I thought I had more time. I blame my bosses and the Tax Man, but I do not blame my inherent propensity for procrastination, of course.

[Freudian Slit]

Yay, I think?

I made pasta salad with alcohol dressing.

And you guys thought I couldn't get any more creative. (Yup, that's the word I'm goin' with. Creative.)

[Rysto]

No surprise there. Go Team!!!

Interesting. Sounds like Oredigger was expecting this. I would expect that the ambiguity in the reveal was due to some one-shot scum power.

Also, it would appear that Oredigger truthfully claimed the first time around:

I guess we're going in a random order but here's mine.Role: Random Mafia
You are George Washington (President). You win with theTown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington

In retrospect, it's interesting that his typo was in the "You win with the Town" part of his PM, when that obviously was not in his original PM.

[sachertorte]

Arg. It wasn't meant to be ambiguous. It was meant to be fun.

Oredigger was 100% scum.

[Rysto]

I was thinking that a mechanic that obscured the cardflip was more suited to, say, RoOsh or Idle than you, sach. Don't worry about it. I'm just naturally paranoid in these games.

[special ed]

I forget, strategy or no strategy at Night?

[Tom Scud]

Strategy.

[Mahaloth]

Cool. I wonder why he claimed doctor like that. Unless this game had no doctor, he was almost assured a counter claim, which he got and which killed him.

Well, whatever. Good for us! :)

[special ed]

Cool. I wonder why he claimed doctor like that. Unless this game had no doctor, he was almost assured a counter claim, which he got and which killed him.

Well, whatever. Good for us! :)

He was up to be lynched anyway.

Worst case for the Scum is that they find the doctor.

Best case is they get the doctor lynched.

[Freudian Slit]

There's night strategy in this game? Since when?

[Tom Scud]

There has always been night strategy in this game.

[Mahaloth]

Uh, we can always discuss night strategy in this game, I thought.

[Freudian Slit]

Oh wow. I mean, I know I died early on but I don't remember us doing that when I was alive. Probably all those drinks I sampled.

[special ed]

Copied from Rysto and expanded (and improved! now with Blue!)

I've made Rysto, Texcat and Cookies Blue as well

and green for dead and unknown

Day One

peekercpa (4): Zeriel 151 190, TexCat 314 356, Chronos 360, Meeko 383, Freudian Slit 478, Mahaloth 482
KellyCriterion (3): NAF1138 313, Jimmy Chitwood 484, Tom Scud 571
Chronos (3): storyteller0910 416 564, peekercpa 450, storyteller0910 590, MHaye 591
Drain Bead (2): Zeriel 560, special ed 565
TexCat (1): Red Skeezix 316, Tom Scud 328 571, peekercpa 346 450
Oredigger77 (1): Drain Bead 347
Red Skeezix (1): TexCat 356, Freudian Slit 364 478
Zeriel (1): storyteller0910 564 567, One And Only Wanderers 570
Rysto (1): GuiriEnEspaña 576
Freudian Slit (1): Rysto 577
NAF1138 (0): One And Only Wanderers 179 288, KellyCriterion 242 244
storyteller0910 (0): peekercpa 116 201
One And Only Wanderers (0): Chronos 180 360, Jimmy Chitwood 184, Meeko 220 291
Mahaloth (0): Meeko 291 298
Not Voting (2) : KellyCriterion, Oredigger77

Day Two

One And Only Wanderers (8): Jimmy Chitwood 757, Oredigger77 760, Freudian Slit 763, Mahaloth 815, GuiriEnEspaña 855, Drain Bead 865, Zeriel 874, Chronos 882
Freudian Slit (8): Rysto 655, Meeko 666, Tom Scud 783, Red Skeezix 835, special ed 861, OAOW 871, TexCat 880, MHaye 885
Mahaloth (1): storyteller0910 833
Jimmy Chitwood (0): Oredigger 717 734, One And Only Wanderers 751 871, TexCat 795 880
Drain Bead (0): Zeriel 715 874
GuiriEnEspaña (0): Chronos 803 882
TexCat (0): Tom Scud 706 783
Tom Scud (0): Mahaloth 787 815
Meeko (0): Freudian Slit 651 763

Day Three

Chronos (7): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, GuiriEnEspaña 1000, Tom Scud 1002, Rysto 1005, Jimmy Chitwood 1013
Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004 1013
Oredigger77 (2): special ed 995, MHaye 1015
Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941
TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002, Meeko 982

Day Four

Oredigger77 (10): GuiriEnEspaña 1032, TexCat 1035, special ed 1037, Drain Bead 1039, Tom Scud 1047, MHaye 1116, Rysto 1127, Mahaloth 1135, Red Skeezix 1136, Zeriel 1164
Rysto (2): Oredigger77 1137, Meeko 1153
Tom Scud (1): Mahaloth 1031 1133, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 1111
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (0): Rysto 1028 1051
TexCat (0): Meeko 1029 1110

Player List:

Alive:
TexCat
Tom Scud
special ed
Red Skeezix
Meeko
Mahaloth
GuiriEnEspana
Cookies
Rysto
Drain Bead



Dead:
Oredigger
Freudian Slit
storyteller
MHaye
NAF1138
Jimmy Chitwood
One and Only Wanderers
Chronos
Zeriel
peekercpa

If Zeriel and MHaye voted, why were they removed?

If we started with 20, I would guess 4-5 Scum, which means we have 1-4 Scum left out of 10 players.

Best case, we're at 9-1 (I doubt)

worst case we're at 6-4 which means potential lynch or lose toMorrow.

If I had to guess on Scum at this point, I'd say Drain, Meeko, and Zeriel with another Scum.

[Mahaloth]

If Zeriel and MHaye voted, why were they removed?


Yeah, I'm surprised to see this. I mean, they weren't super active, but I can remember them participating. Weird.

[Chronos]

Send a message via AIM to Freudian Slit
Oh wow. I mean, I know I died early on but I don't remember us doing that when I was alive. Probably all those drinks I sampled. Hey, don't blame me. You never gave me a chance to slip a little something special into the drinks.

[Meeko]

I doubt it is going to matter, but I landed a job with the Census today.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

Congratulations Meeko! That's great news.

[Drain Bead]

Yay Meeko! Those jobs pay pretty well, from what I was seeing.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Excellent news, Meeko.

[Meeko]

Yay Meeko! Those jobs pay pretty well, from what I was seeing.

$18.75 an hour.

Nights and Weekends. 20 hours a week, for 8 weeks.

But then again, at that rate, I would work at 3 in the morning.

The rate more than makes up for the lack of hours.

[Alka Seltzer]

Congratulations Meeko.

[special ed]

I doubt it is going to matter, but I landed a job with the Census today.

Congrats, Meeko.

oh, wait, am I supposed to say that? People have said that I hate you ;)

[Oredigger77]

:::Haunting::

Congrats!! Now you'll get to see some real paranoia.

:::Haunting:::

[Meeko]

Should I worry Digger?

[TexCat]

Congrats, Meeko!

[Oredigger77]

I wouldn't but my guess is about half of the people you're going to be talking to are the "don't want no gubermint man askin no question 'bout my life" type. Personally I think it'll be entertaining.

[Mahaloth]

I wouldn't but my guess is about half of the people you're going to be talking to are the "don't want no gubermint man askin no question 'bout my life" type. Personally I think it'll be entertaining.

I was a manager in the 2000 census. I'd estimate about 20% of the people were the way you described, while the remaining 80% of people can be described as:

1. Ignorant of the form. Some people have been able to avoid knowing about the census, even with the ads.

2. Legal immigrants who don't trust that it is private and won't be used to boot them.

3. People who are disabled, either mentally or physically, and are very unlikely to fill out a form and send it back in the mail.

[Oredigger77]

That makes me feel better that there are less crazies then I thought. Even the I think Meeko will have some interesting stories.

[Chronos]

Note, of course, that the population the census workers actually talk to are a non-random sample. They're just the folks who didn't send in their forms correctly. So it's not 20% of the entire population that are crazy that way, just 20% of those who didn't respond are.

[Mahaloth]

Note, of course, that the population the census workers actually talk to are a non-random sample. They're just the folks who didn't send in their forms correctly. So it's not 20% of the entire population that are crazy that way, just 20% of those who didn't respond are.

Yes, that was what I meant. I was giving percentages of those who did not send it in, not percentages of the whole. Most people just fill it out and return it.

[sachertorte]

TexCat (Freemason) is dead.

[special ed]

Vote Drain Bead

[GuiriEnEspaña]

Farewell TexCat!

I would have expected scum to target our claimed Doc over a mason. Either Rysto is scum, or the scum don't have a roleblocker, or scum had other reasons for killing TexCat and confirming the masonry.

With just one claimed mason left I need to claim now before Cookies is killed and cannot confirm me. I'm the third and final mason.

Tentatively accepting Rysto's claim, we are left with 6 unknowns of which 1-4 are scum:
Tom Scud
special ed
Red Skeezix
Meeko
Mahaloth
Drain Bead

Using the points system and the information currently in play (probable Cop, claimed Doc, Vig, 3-person masonry, no scum roleblocker), I'm guessing we were initially faced with a 5 person scum team, probably with a godfather or investigator. I doubt two members of either team were mod-killed as this would be quite unfair on that team (especially as the two players had posted and voted yesterDay) so I'd like to think we lost one town and one scum - leaving us 3 scum to catch - and 1 mislynch.

Looking at the 6 unknowns, I maintain a suspicion of practically all of them. I'm half-way through a full re-read and hope to draw some conclusions later.

@ Special Ed, is your vote on Drain based on her one-off vote on OreDigger on Day1 and then voting for the same target as him on Day3? Or do you have more to your case (the skimming of Meeko's posts, for example)? What about her "This whole post REEKS" response to OreDigger's vote on Chronos, more bussing?

@ Cookies, I've done a WoW on Tom and, like TexCat, have a gut feeling about him but have no evidence to back up a case. What do you find scummy about him apart from the "slip", his propensity to vote for masons?97 Reviews rules
111 Unsure about name claim and randomness of names/alignments, has a vaguely towny name
113 Adds that his name includes a profession, suggests omitting this
118 Is in favor of name claim
121 Agrees with Chronos that town power roles should false claim
155 Claims Busby Berkeley
199-200-203-204 Corrects Mahaloth's list to include Peeker, notes missing claims
277 Will reread
328 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12252839&postcount=328) Votes TexCat for vote on Peeker both after he clarified his role and after she stated there was no advantage to copy/paste in 208 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12245812&postcount=208)
390 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12256040&postcount=390) Corrects vote tally
449 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258493&postcount=449) Clarifies Ed scenario of Peeker as scum
469 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12260530&postcount=469) Corrects vote tally again
476 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12260684&postcount=476) Reviews cases so far, doesn't find Peeker or OaOW scummy, will keep an eye on Kelly, comfortable with vote on Tex, blames Peeker for current situation
477 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12260702&postcount=477) Hoping for MHaye to summarize the events of the Day
554 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12264500&postcount=554) Updates review of cases, notes 7 non voters, encourages "townies" to vote
571 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265141&postcount=571) Moves vote to Kelly to avoid a one-off, doesn't like cases against Peeker or Chronos
630 Fluff
706 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12277014&postcount=706) "Overnight thread" comment in defense of Drain, questions MHaye's vote on Chronos - doesn't think Chronos rode Peeker, will keep an eye on Meeko, votes TexCat for opportunistic vote on Peeker
710 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12277158&postcount=710) Clarifies "overnight thread"
719 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12279040&postcount=719) Declines to argue over possible slip
741 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12281901&postcount=741) Responds to Chronos on experience with multiple-thread games - just 1
774 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285200&postcount=774) Comments on MHaye's explanation of vote on Chronos
777 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285280&postcount=777) FOSes MHaye
780 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285307&postcount=780) Still happy with TexCat vote, two marks in her favor: evil name & noting Meeko's typo
783 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285342&postcount=783) Votes Freudian for voting a second player for being an anti-town distraction
788 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285547&postcount=788) Explains & defends vote to Mahaloth, bandwagoning, opportunistic voting
789 NETA
846 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289234&postcount=846) Reviews case against OaOW, prefers vote on Freudian but not against case. Also sees Story's case on Mahaloth as valid - has not stuck neck out
877 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12290984&postcount=877) Reviews votes, notes that TexCat has defended herself
886 Fluff
923 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12299677&postcount=923) Comments on deaths, Story was suspicious of Chronos
953 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12303393&postcount=953) Responds to Mahaloth's early vote
969 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12306414&postcount=969) Notes inconsistency between TexCat's stance on copy/paste in #208 and her suspicions of Jimmy and Chronos - she doesn't understand why people would want to hide information from town, votes TexCat
970 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12306443&postcount=970) Thinks Story was the cop, no advantage to false claiming otherwise
979 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12308221&postcount=979) Comments on TexCat's change of mind on Freudian's scumminess
980 NETA
988 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12311022&postcount=988) Self-defense against Cookies's case
1002 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12315182&postcount=1002) Self-defense vote on Chronos
1010 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12317106&postcount=1010) To Jimmy, defends post on OaOW without following it up with a vote, expresses suspicion of OreDigger for vote on Chronos
1047 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12326782&postcount=1047) Votes Oredigger, points out typo in name claim
1048 NETA
1106 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12329408&postcount=1106) To Meeko, explains how Oredigger's typo is different
1112 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12331358&postcount=1112) Believes mason claim but not how being masons makes Cookies case against him any stronger. Defends voting record.
1181 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12344737&postcount=1181) Is pinged by Drain's "nobody's talking about Tom" when in fact a number of players have
1183 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12344751&postcount=1183) Apologises to TexCat but found inconsistencies in her play and was suspicious
1189-1199-1203 Fluff@ Drain, yesterDay you asked twice about why nobody was talking about Tom and was concerned that he'd escaped a lynch and needed more scrutiny. You voted for Chronos just before Cookies made her case against Tom on Day 3 and didn't comment on the case then. What has Tom done since then to make you so concerned that nobody's talking about him?

[Drain Bead]

Voting for me essentially for finding Scum on Day One is pretty weak, all told. It happened in Screamers too, and I was on Rysto in Cecil Pond early and picked up quick votes for it as well. Sometimes I feel like Cassandra in this game. My weak-ass Day One cases are generally right. The only time I've ever engaged in bussing as Scum was in Colorless, and that was probably the strongest Day One case I've ever come up with!

I think Tom and Ed are Scum, not sure about who else. We have a bunch of pretty strong players left in the unconfirmed pool.

vote Tom

[Drain Bead]

@ Drain, yesterDay you asked twice about why nobody was talking about Tom and was concerned that he'd escaped a lynch and needed more scrutiny. You voted for Chronos just before Cookies made her case against Tom on Day 3 and didn't comment on the case then. What has Tom done since then to make you so concerned that nobody's talking about him?

It's not so much what Tom has done (I think he's mostly laying low for the time being) but what happened after he was close to the noose. Now, Oredigger was an obvious pick, and I'm sure Scum saw his inevitable end coming and were quick on the pile-on, but it seemed like people were purposely avoiding talking about Tom, hoping that the issue would go away.

[special ed]

@ Special Ed, is your vote on Drain based on her one-off vote on OreDigger on Day1 and then voting for the same target as him on Day3? Or do you have more to your case (the skimming of Meeko's posts, for example)? What about her "This whole post REEKS" response to OreDigger's vote on Chronos, more bussing?

Yes, I believe it was a one-off vote on Oredigger designed to provide some Townie Cred later in the game.

While I don't have a problem with her voting for Chronos like Oredigger did on Day 3, the problem is, she completely criticized Oredigger's vote and made no mention that she was voting the same way. It just struck me as Scum on Scum tactics.

The skimming isn't really an issue, though it is anti-Town

[special ed]

Updated for TexCat's death and Guiri's claim.

Day One

peekercpa (4): Zeriel 151 190, TexCat 314 356, Chronos 360, Meeko 383, Freudian Slit 478, Mahaloth 482
KellyCriterion (3): NAF1138 313, Jimmy Chitwood 484, Tom Scud 571
Chronos (3): storyteller0910 416 564, peekercpa 450, storyteller0910 590, MHaye 591
Drain Bead (2): Zeriel 560, special ed 565
TexCat (1): Red Skeezix 316, Tom Scud 328 571, peekercpa 346 450
Oredigger77 (1): Drain Bead 347
Red Skeezix (1): TexCat 356, Freudian Slit 364 478
Zeriel (1): storyteller0910 564 567, One And Only Wanderers 570
Rysto (1): GuiriEnEspaña 576
Freudian Slit (1): Rysto 577
NAF1138 (0): One And Only Wanderers 179 288, KellyCriterion 242 244
storyteller0910 (0): peekercpa 116 201
One And Only Wanderers (0): Chronos 180 360, Jimmy Chitwood 184, Meeko 220 291
Mahaloth (0): Meeko 291 298
Not Voting (2) : KellyCriterion, Oredigger77

Day Two

One And Only Wanderers (8): Jimmy Chitwood 757, Oredigger77 760, Freudian Slit 763, Mahaloth 815, GuiriEnEspaña 855, Drain Bead 865, Zeriel 874, Chronos 882
Freudian Slit (8): Rysto 655, Meeko 666, Tom Scud 783, Red Skeezix 835, special ed 861, OAOW 871, TexCat 880, MHaye 885
Mahaloth (1): storyteller0910 833
Jimmy Chitwood (0): Oredigger 717 734, One And Only Wanderers 751 871, TexCat 795 880
Drain Bead (0): Zeriel 715 874
GuiriEnEspaña (0): Chronos 803 882
TexCat (0): Tom Scud 706 783
Tom Scud (0): Mahaloth 787 815
Meeko (0): Freudian Slit 651 763

Day Three

Chronos (7): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, GuiriEnEspaña 1000, Tom Scud 1002, Rysto 1005, Jimmy Chitwood 1013
Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004 1013
Oredigger77 (2): special ed 995, MHaye 1015
Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941
TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002, Meeko 982

Day Four

Oredigger77 (10): GuiriEnEspaña 1032, TexCat 1035, special ed 1037, Drain Bead 1039, Tom Scud 1047, MHaye 1116, Rysto 1127, Mahaloth 1135, Red Skeezix 1136, Zeriel 1164
Rysto (2): Oredigger77 1137, Meeko 1153
Tom Scud (1): Mahaloth 1031 1133, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 1111
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (0): Rysto 1028 1051
TexCat (0): Meeko 1029 1110

Player List:

Alive:

Tom Scud
special ed
Red Skeezix
Meeko
Mahaloth
GuiriEnEspana
Cookies
Rysto
Drain Bead



Dead:
Oredigger
Freudian Slit
storyteller
MHaye
NAF1138
Jimmy Chitwood
One and Only Wanderers
Chronos
Zeriel
peekercpa
TexCat



If we started with 20, I would guess 4-5 Scum, which means we have 1-4 Scum left out of 9 players.

Best case, we're at 8-1 (I doubt)

worst case we're at 5-4 which means potential lynch or lose toMorrow.

Most likely case is one of Zeriel and MHaye are Scum (I'd lean Zeriel)

With 3 Masons, I'd lean towards 5 Scum.

It means we are probably at 6-3 with 1 mislynch left. Though we could be at lynch or lose.

[Meeko]

We have a bunch of pretty strong players left in the unconfirmed pool.



Which is probably why Town is losing.

Drain, would you consider yourself a good player? :D

[Mahaloth]

Vote Tom

It's where my vote was before Oredigger's odd claim.

[Drain Bead]

Which is probably why Town is losing.

Drain, would you consider yourself a good player? :D

Why do you think Town is losing? If we nab Scum toDay, to me we're doing well.

I'm not a great player, but I'm not a bad player either. I'm more of an instinctual player than a lot of people, which can get me in trouble--I put more weight on hunches than I probably should, but I have a decent track record with my hunches, too.

[Tom Scud]

Hi all. Sorry about not posting; I'm in the awkward position of having my prior suspects either die or turn up Town; I was considering a case against Zeriel when Digger's case looked assured, mainly for choosing a very narrow focus and suspecting people for reasons that really aren't open to discussion; but I didn't want to go into it while he was dealing with whatever the medical emergency was, and then, well.

And now I need to go back and do some careful reading and I have no idea when I'll be able to do that. I've got arguments why everyone in the unconfirmed pool is scum (taking it alphabetically, I did not like Drain's "gosh why is no one suspicious of Tom" argument yesterday; I remember ed spending a lot of time poking at peeker on Day 1; Mahaloth put a couple votes on me for fairly flimsy reasons before coming up with something that at least looked like a case yesterday; Meeko seemed unusually freaked out by the Oredigger wagon yesterday; and Red has kept a pretty low profile, as Guiri pointed out the other day.)

I have no idea why Digger made that vote on Chronos; my best guess is that since there were three people (Zeriel, Mahaloth, Cookies) who had made it pretty clear they were voting for me and would continue to do so, he figured that if he lynched Chronos that day, it would be pretty easy to set me up for a lynch on a future day.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Why do you think Town is losing? If we nab Scum toDay, to me we're doing well.

I'm not a great player, but I'm not a bad player either. I'm more of an instinctual player than a lot of people, which can get me in trouble--I put more weight on hunches than I probably should, but I have a decent track record with my hunches, too.

Would you still think we're doing well if both of the mod-kills were Townies?

[Drain Bead]

I actually thought about including that scenario in there, but I'll just remain hopeful that one or both of them were Scum. I doubt it, but hey. Even then, if we nab Scum toDay I think it might turn things around--we can analyze voting patterns a bit more and maybe expose something useful for tomorrow.

[Meeko]

Even so Drain, honestly you are beginning to ping.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

worst case we're at 5-4 which means potential lynch or lose toMorrow.
5-4 would be LyLo toDay, right?
Most likely case is one of Zeriel and MHaye are Scum (I'd lean Zeriel)
How do you reconcile Zeriel's votes on Drain for the hidden smudge two Days in a row with them both being on the same scum team? I'd lean more towards MHaye being scum, especially for the last minute Day3 vote on OreDigger but unfortunately there's not much to be revealed from analyzing his 10 or so posts... This doesn't say anything about Drain's alignment but I doubt Drain and Zeriel were both scum.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

@ Mahaloth, I noticed this while re-reading (snipped, added italics):
2. I see story's vote ended on me yesterDay. I don't really know why or have much to say about it. I'm town and that's all I can say about it. Perhaps he got a town result on Night One for Freudian or OneandOnly. I guess we won't know, unless he bread-crumbed in some way we haven't figured out.
Story voted you in 833 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287911&postcount=833) and you responded in 836 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12288256&postcount=836) with:
Not much to say about the vote on me from story. I did defend Freudian a bit after that lame vote placed on her. At least story gives a reason with his votes, which I can respect.
Why the change from "At least story gives a reason" to "I really don't know why" after Story's reveal as Detective Chief Superintendent?

[Drain Bead]

@ Mahaloth, I noticed this while re-reading (snipped, added italics):

Story voted you in 833 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287911&postcount=833) and you responded in 836 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12288256&postcount=836) with:

Why the change from "At least story gives a reason" to "I really don't know why" after Story's reveal as Detective Chief Superintendent?

Two interesting questions, Guiri. I especially find the first telling...ed may know we're at LyLo Tomorrow if we mislynch toDay, and slipped on something that is obvious to those paying attention. Right now, he's trying to get me lynched for voting for Scum, which hopefully everyone else finds as ridiculous as I do. If it weren't for the fact that I'm concerned about this being an OMGUS reaction instead of something well-thought-out, and the fact that Tom is still alive, I'd be voting for ed right now.

[Rysto]

Right now, he's trying to get me lynched for voting for Scum, which hopefully everyone else finds as ridiculous as I do.
The irony is killing me. :D

[Drain Bead]

The irony is killing me. :D

....:confused:

Are you referring to Cecil Pond here? I actually was thinking of that when I made my first Oredigger vote.

[Rysto]

....:confused:

Are you referring to Cecil Pond here? I actually was thinking of that when I made my first Oredigger vote.
You might recall that that the only reason that I picked up any votes after Day Two of Cecil Pond was that I "must" have been scum bussing Kelly.

[special ed]

5-4 would be LyLo toDay, right?



Yes, I copy/pasted my post from the Night. I changed the numbers from 6-4 to 5-4 but forgot to change toMOrrow to toDay.

How do you reconcile Zeriel's votes on Drain for the hidden smudge two Days in a row with them both being on the same scum team? I'd lean more towards MHaye being scum, especially for the last minute Day3 vote on OreDigger but unfortunately there's not much to be revealed from analyzing his 10 or so posts... This doesn't say anything about Drain's alignment but I doubt Drain and Zeriel were both scum.

The point about Zeriel's vote for Drain is a good one, but there are several possibilities.

1. I'm wrong about Drain
2. I'm wrong about Zeriel
3. Zeriel and Drain were engaged in some Scum on Scum distractions.

[special ed]

Two interesting questions, Guiri. I especially find the first telling...ed may know we're at LyLo Tomorrow if we mislynch toDay, and slipped on something that is obvious to those paying attention.

Interesting.

If you go back and read my post from last Night and not just skim other people's responses to it, you'll see I was pointing out our worst case scenario being lynch or lose toDay. (granted my first post toDay I forgot to change it)

but even so, the rest of both posts goes on to discuss other scenarios.

So you think I'm displaying PIS by describing all of the possible situations?

[GuiriEnEspaña]

You might recall that that the only reason that I picked up any votes after Day Two of Cecil Pond was that I "must" have been scum bussing Kelly.
Ha! I had to go back an re-read Cecil Pond to understand the reference! If anyone doesn't know or have the time, Drain singled out Rysto as scum for bussing a fellow scum (Kelly), pushing him into a tie with a claimed vanilla townie. Drain's argument was that there must have been at least one scum on the Kelly wagon as all the previous voters had flipped town. Rysto was scum. Nice.

@ Special Ed, the copy/paste answer makes sense.

@ Red Skeezix, we lost two players yesterDay due to lack of activity. This seriously hurt Town as we have no idea as to their alignment. You haven't posted in exactly 7 days and (I guess) risk being mod-killed. I maintain my suspicions of you although your defense to my case yesterDay slightly reduced my certainty of your scumminess. We cannot afford to lose another player with no reveal information, especially one I think is scum. For now:

Vote Red Skeezix

[Drain Bead]

Ha! I had to go back an re-read Cecil Pond to understand the reference! If anyone doesn't know or have the time, Drain singled out Rysto as scum for bussing a fellow scum (Kelly), pushing him into a tie with a claimed vanilla townie. Drain's argument was that there must have been at least one scum on the Kelly wagon as all the previous voters had flipped town. Rysto was scum. Nice.

Yeah...the reason I thought he "must" have been Scum in that game was because every other voter for Kelly was Town. The circumstances aren't the same here, so far as we all know.

[Tom Scud]

So. I'm going to try to do a thorough reread this evening; even if I can't, I'll do what I can and place a vote.

[Meeko]

I think Drain has too much optimism to be Town. I feel she is also too Teflon. By that I mean, she has an answer to everything, that incidently covers everything that others find scummy.

[special ed]

I think Drain has too much optimism to be Town. I feel she is also too Teflon. By that I mean, she has an answer to everything, that incidently covers everything that others find scummy.

So, she's able to defend herself therefore she must be Scum?