Random Mafia

[sachertorte]

Drain Bead (1): special ed 1225

Tom Scud (2): Drain Bead 1227, Mahaloth 1232

Red Skeezix (1): GuiriEnEspaña 1246

[Drain Bead]

So, she's able to defend herself therefore she must be Scum?

So, the case against me boils down to...I can find Scum, and I can defend myself.

I can see people saying someone is "too Townie." If I were that, I wouldn't have admitted in this thread to skimming Meeko and earlier, to being so unable to follow the game that I was suggesting asking for a sub.

I'm not perfect, but at least I'm not trying to make cases against people for doing well, you know?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Guy: I owe you a response to an earlier question. My case against Tom is still pretty much confined to the post in which I voted for him a few Days ago. He also seems to have been more quiet since almost being lynched. Coming in as a sub and trying to get my bearings the game, Tom's voting record and pursuit of Texcat really stuck out to me. The perfect information I had caused his play to show up like a beacon, consistently functioning as an anti-town force.

I'm still willing to put my vote back on him, but am certainly up for further discussion.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

To clarify, by "anti-town" force I mean literally acting against Town, not the softer interpretation of the phrase and its use as a hypothetical yardstick.

[special ed]

So, the case against me boils down to...I can find Scum, and I can defend myself.

I can see the second part being Meeko's case against you. I agree that it's silly.

Are you implying that the first part "You can find Scum" is my case against you?

Did you skim my case against you? Or are you just trying to mischaracterize it and dismiss it with a handwave?

Granted my case isn't as rock solid as I'd like it to be, but it can not be summarized as "She's good at finding Scum."

But let's go with a few points which I've brought up.

1. You complained that I didn't make a case against you when I was commenting on the players who had gotten votes back in Day 2 (I think)
2. Then there was your Day 1 case against Oredigger which I found weak.
2a. This didn't really ping me at the time, but later it struck me as something a Scum might want to do, have a one-off vote on a teammate who wasn't under pressure. I know it's something I'd consider
3. Then there was your case against Oredigger later for his weak vote of Chronos.
3a. This case had some substance, but, in the end, you were voting for the same person that Oredigger was...and this never came up in your discussion.
3b. This was before Oredigger had gotten any votes on Day 3, so it would look good later if either of you got killed.
4. My Day 1 case against you still stands.
4a. You didn't seem to be paying attention to the case against peeker, and yet you were complaining about it in a manner that would allow you come back and say "I told you so"

In the end, it just strikes me as oppportunistic voting, a Scum strategy I've seen used many times.

[Meeko]

So, the case against me boils down to...I can find Scum, and I can defend myself.

I can see people saying someone is "too Townie." If I were that, I wouldn't have admitted in this thread to skimming Meeko and earlier, to being so unable to follow the game that I was suggesting asking for a sub.

I'm not perfect, but at least I'm not trying to make cases against people for doing well, you know?

My play is frustrated by the fact that you guys rarely understand me. If that puts me in a different place to look at other players, so be it. If you want to say that you are that good of a player (After kinda saying you weren't) say it. Being a good player when town is good. Being a good player when scum (for scum's sake) is even better.

I'm not so sure that you can associate your habits (or lack thereof) in reading my posts to this game in particular.

I think you can, and do, skim me in all games.

Therefore your defense here is decidedly weak.

I do get the subbing / mod kill issue, I think it was a tad heavy handed to do, let alone the additional blow of not knowing alignment.


"Not trying to make cases against people for doing well"

This doesn't fly with me. Scum can do weller than town. If we can't point to optimism and other assessments or assessment by-products of someone elses play, I think we would lose many opportunities to find PIS.

I think you kinda knew it was coming, but I think its more of a place holder for right now.

Vote Drain

[Meeko]

Ed, hopefully since we (apparently) agree here, we can be constructive.

elaborate on "Opportunistic Voting", does this come from, or does a version of Opportunistic Voting come from Scum PIS?

Opportunistic

seems to be THE word for scum play-style over the past few games that have been dominated by scum.

[special ed]

Ed, hopefully since we (apparently) agree here, we can be constructive.

elaborate on "Opportunistic Voting", does this come from, or does a version of Opportunistic Voting come from Scum PIS?

Opportunistic

seems to be THE word for scum play-style over the past few games that have been dominated by scum.

I'm not sure that we agree, but we have come to the same conclusion ;)

By Opportunistic, what I mean is that a Scum can take advantage of various opportunities to appear to be more Townie. In this example it means this:
1. Drain voted for Oredigger on Day 1 when there was no danger of either being lynched. Had either eventually been lynched, it might have looked like the other person was more Townie since they voted for/were voted by a Scum. (Think back to Consipracy 3 where I tried to do that with you on Day 1...despite how miserably that failed)

2. Drain took another opportunity to attack Oredigger's vote while failing to point out that she was voting for the same person. In much the same way that we are both voting for Drain, but at least I've been clear in pointing out that I am voting for Drain while not agreeing with your points. Also, at that point, Oredigger had no votes and was in no danger of being lynched. Later in the Day, he gained 2 votes, but he wasn't lynched until Day 4.

3. There are other ways to be opportunistic, jumping on and off bandwagons, voting for player who are lightning rods for votes, etc.

I suppose opportunistic voting can come from Scum PIS, since they'll know everyone's roles.

I also think a little Scum PIS came into play when Drain defended peeker on day 1 while not really even understanding the case against him. She would have known he was Town.

[Drain Bead]

1. You complained that I didn't make a case against you when I was commenting on the players who had gotten votes back in Day 2 (I think)

Snuggling is a valid Scum technique--it makes a Townie trust you a bit more, and then if you go down before they do, it makes them look bad by association. I don't recall the exact circumstances of my complaints, but if you should have found something wrong in my behavior based on your issues with others and didn't, that's problematic in my book. So I pointed it out.

2. Then there was your Day 1 case against Oredigger which I found weak.

Find me a strong Day One case and we'll talk. Until then, this seems like post hoc justification for your case against me.

2a. This didn't really ping me at the time, but later it struck me as something a Scum might want to do, have a one-off vote on a teammate who wasn't under pressure. I know it's something I'd consider

And all I can do is point in the direction of both Screamers and Cecil Pond, in which I had similar early-game votes against Scum, and picked up massive heat for them...usually by Scum, who felt threatened. I've used the bussing technique exactly once in my tenure as Scum (in Colorless), and that's because Freudian wholeheartedly deserved it. I'd have made the same vote against her as Town. On the other hand, as Town my Day One cases tend to be based on hunches and conjecture more than anything else.

3. Then there was your case against Oredigger later for his weak vote of Chronos.
3a. This case had some substance, but, in the end, you were voting for the same person that Oredigger was...and this never came up in your discussion.

My ASS I never brought it up. I refer you to my post 992 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12313289&postcount=992), in which I called Digger out for his weak-ass vote. In that post, I say, and I quote, "Even if Chronos comes up Scum, which I think he is at this point, I still find this vote incredibly suspect." I say "I think he is at this point" precisely because I am voting for him. To try to insinuate that I didn't bring up the fact that I was voting for him, when anyone who reads my post for comprehension can see that I did bring it up even if I didn't say the actual words, reads of deliberate misinterpretation to me.

3b. This was before Oredigger had gotten any votes on Day 3, so it would look good later if either of you got killed.

And if I'd one-off voted him then, you'd be complaining that I made a one-off to make myself look good, just like you did above. This all happened relatively late in the Day.

4. My Day 1 case against you still stands.
4a. You didn't seem to be paying attention to the case against peeker, and yet you were complaining about it in a manner that would allow you come back and say "I told you so"

Again, I point you in the direction of every game I've ever been in with peeker, in which I make the same complaint about the inevitable Day One case against him. I've done this as Town and Scum, so it's essentially a null tell--I complain about the case against him because it's usually personality-driven, which I generally don't like.

In the end, it just strikes me as oppportunistic voting, a Scum strategy I've seen used many times.

One man's opportunistic is another man's "Scum voting for Town because they are good at finding Scum."

[Meeko]

One man's opportunistic is another man's "Scum voting for Town because they are good at finding Scum."



What is it to the third man?

[Drain Bead]

What is it to the third man?

Depends entirely on which third man you're referring to. ;) Obviously the Scum know I'm Town, and the Town have no clue.

For the record, I'm a bit concerned about your vote yesterday. Can you explain why you trusted Oredigger over Rysto?

[Meeko]

Depends entirely on which third man you're referring to. ;) Obviously the Scum know I'm Town, and the Town have no clue.

For the record, I'm a bit concerned about your vote yesterday. Can you explain why you trusted Oredigger over Rysto?

Not anymore than I already have. At the time, I didn't trust either, and I felt then it would be a better move to vote as I did. IIRC I said it was a gut feeling (Or I said it was close to one). Gut feelings by definition don't have explanations.

[special ed]

My ASS I never brought it up. I refer you to my post 992 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12313289&postcount=992), in which I called Digger out for his weak-ass vote. In that post, I say, and I quote, "Even if Chronos comes up Scum, which I think he is at this point, I still find this vote incredibly suspect." I say "I think he is at this point" precisely because I am voting for him. To try to insinuate that I didn't bring up the fact that I was voting for him, when anyone who reads my post for comprehension can see that I did bring it up even if I didn't say the actual words, reads of deliberate misinterpretation to me.

This point is valid.

I wasn't insinuating that you failed to bring it up. I was directly stating it, and I was entirely wrong.


So lay out your case against Tom again, please.

[Tom Scud]

Ok. I've done a bunch of reading - not as much as I would have liked - and my brain isn't really operating at peak capacity, but here's what I think about our five unconfirmed:

1 - Drain - I've got OMGUS and self-defense reasons for wanting to vote her. I find her 1117 pretty annoying, as she says "why isn't anyone talking about Tom" when in fact everyone who'd voted for me the previous day and posted that day had in fact voted for me.

Another thing that caught my eye is 1122 -
Don't look at this as a defense of Meeko--I'm at the point where I skim most of his posts unless it's absolutely necessary, because I found a long time ago that trying to comprehend what he was getting at is futile for me--and that was when we were on the same team! When I have no idea as to his alignment, it becomes Sisyphean.

But that IS a defense, really. If I were a scum teammate of Meeko's, I'd do my best to push the "oh Meeko is so hard to read just skip over it all please" line. If either Meeko or Drain turns up Scum, I'd take a hard look at the other.

Meeko's vote on Drain problematizes that, although he cast a pretty undermotivated bus vote on her in colorless. And speaking of colorless, somehow Drain has left that out of her discussion of her successful detection of Scum on Day 1 - she did it in that game, too, after all. (But then, she was scum).

All that said, I'm not seeing enough to cast a vote here.

2 - Ed.

I found one very interesting thing in Ed's posting history. First, he votes Drain on Day 1 for opposing the peeker wagon without understanding why people were voting for him. Then, on Day 2 (843 and a couple later posts) he says, in an overview of his attitudes towards people who had drawn votes that day:

OK, OK, fine, let's change that to say: I don't really find anything out of the ordinary with Drain. I can see a Townie making the mistake regarding Zeriel and the case against peeker.

And now, failing to understand the case against peeker is exhibit B in his case against her.

3 - Mahaloth

By this point, I was pretty tired, having read straight through ed's 155 posts.

Again, OMGUS is a concern - Maha has been on my case for three straight days, without much apparent desire to discuss it. He never really engaged my reply to his response and vote on the Freudian thing.

His posthumous response to story's case on him has a serious logic failure in it:
2. I see story's vote ended on me yesterDay. I don't really know why or have much to say about it. I'm town and that's all I can say about it. Perhaps he got a town result on Night One for Freudian or OneandOnly. I guess we won't know, unless he bread-crumbed in some way we haven't figured out.

Umm. Story held and did not cast the tie-breaking vote in the contest between Freudian and OneandOnly. If he'd had a town result on one of them, he'd have cast it.

4 - Meeko. Sorry, I did not reread all of Meeko's posts, so I'm working from memory, aided by what I picked up in my reread of other people. He voted peeker on "I don't like your play" grounds, voted Freudian on OMGUS grounds, voted TexCat on Day 3 for reasons I don't even remember, and flipped out hard about the Oredigger/Rysto contest. There's a lot there that pings me. On the last point, on the one hand it looks likely that there was a decision on the scum board to just bus Digger, and one would expect a scummy Meeko to know this. On the other hand, just because it had been discussed on the scum board wouldn't necessarily keep him from flipping out.

Gah. This is taking forever, and I would like to spend some time with my wife before we both fall asleep. Short version of the Skeezix summary: Not much there pings me, aside from the fact that there's not much there.

Again. Not getting any super-strong pings on anyone. I'm torn between Meeko and Ed at the moment; Meeko because of the "I was burned during colorless and don't want to be burned that way again" effect; ed because of the ping - unping - ping on Drain.

vote meeko. I killed us in colorless by blinking at the last minute on this; won't be fooled again.

[special ed]

2 - Ed.

I found one very interesting thing in Ed's posting history. First, he votes Drain on Day 1 for opposing the peeker wagon without understanding why people were voting for him. Then, on Day 2 (843 and a couple later posts) he says, in an overview of his attitudes towards people who had drawn votes that day:



And now, failing to understand the case against peeker is exhibit B in his case against her.



This is a correct characterization of my actions regarding Drain.

My Day 1 vote was weak. I was pinged by Drain's approach towards peeker.

Further Days led to other things that bothered me more. The ping from Drain's actions really weren't foremost in my mind for me. The list was just meant to be notes about the various cases.

Now that more has occurred with Drain, the ping on Day 1 can still be included in my case.

In hindsight, I suppose I should have mentioned it when I went through my list, but it really had slipped my mind by then.

[Red Skeezix]

@ Red Skeezix, we lost two players yesterDay due to lack of activity. This seriously hurt Town as we have no idea as to their alignment. You haven't posted in exactly 7 days and (I guess) risk being mod-killed. I maintain my suspicions of you although your defense to my case yesterDay slightly reduced my certainty of your scumminess. We cannot afford to lose another player with no reveal information, especially one I think is scum. For now:

Vote Red Skeezix

I see the prod, and acknowledge it, the weekend and the past couple of days have been hellish on me. My schedule is much clearer from tomorrow on, I need a rest, and a chance to review my notes. Sorry again, all.

[Drain Bead]

Case against Tom:

1. Voting record. Has a history of voting for Town. Cookies, with the information she had as a Mason, was able to point that out pretty well. Not to say that Townies can't vote for Town, but it's definitely a black mark on him.

2. This is the biggie for me--he was the one who "caught" the typo in Oredigger's original claim. He had to go back pretty far to catch that. To me, it seems like he may have caught his teammate making the typo ahead of time (or some other Scum did and pointed it out in their thread) then decided to use it against him for Town cred later on (and to craft a fake claim as well). It all just seems way too orchestrated for me, especially since it came about when Tom had one foot in the fire.

3. After getting heat, he started lurking. To me, a Townie goes down swinging.

I'm reviewing the stuff people are saying about me in regards to the "nobody's talking about Tom" kerfluffle. Early in the Day, Mahaloth revoted for Tom. There were then two pages of Meeko arguing with everyone and masons claiming before we got our second Tom vote, from Cookies. A few posts after Cookies made that vote was my first mention of "Hrm, everyone's voting for Digger and not really talking about Tom anymore." A few posts after that, and Digger makes his fake claim. Mahaloth then unvotes Tom, and most posts following that (save ed setting up his case against me) were people discussing that.

So it's a bit disingenuous to claim that 1) everyone who had voted for Tom the Day before voted for him again, when I'm only counting two of the four; and 2) that people were actually discussing Tom when I said they weren't. Yeah, people were, but not nearly to the extent that it was happening a Day before, when he'd bounced back and forth out of the noose until damned close to Day's end.

[Red Skeezix]

1. Case against drain: Meeko's point about drain being 'Teflon' is pretty ridiculous. If Drain was doing all of the things she has done for pro-town reasons, wouldn't she be able to defend herself with her original reasoning? The rest of the reasons provided seem reasonable, but I find myself in greater agreement with the case against Tom.

2. Case against Tom: I find myself in agreement with some of these points. Some not so much, see my own case below:

Ok. I've done a bunch of reading - not as much as I would have liked - and my brain isn't really operating at peak capacity, but here's what I think about our five unconfirmed:

1 -
Another thing that caught my eye is 1122 -


But that IS a defense, really. If I were a scum teammate of Meeko's, I'd do my best to push the "oh Meeko is so hard to read just skip over it all please" line. If either Meeko or Drain turns up Scum, I'd take a hard look at the other.


(Snipped)


4 - Meeko. Sorry, I did not reread all of Meeko's posts, so I'm working from memory, aided by what I picked up in my reread of other people.


I was considering voting for Tom largely because:

1. The more I think about it, the more Oredigger's Chronos seems like a defensive play. It kept Chronos in the running to be lynched when things seemed to me to be switching back to Tom.

2. The slip, I think it nets out to null, but it is another point (small) against him.

3. The hypocrisy in the quoted statement above. He is chastising drain for skimming meeko's posts but feels comfortable enough to make a case against meeko with a nod to (paraphrased) "I didn't bother to reread, but here's my case against him anyways".

Hmm that wasn't very clear. To clarify, To me it seems like both drain and tom are encouraging a dismissive attitude towards meeko's posts, but tom sees this dismissiveness as a scum trait when drain does it, but not when he himself does it.

4. As drain has pointed out, he was close enough to the noose feel the devil tugging on his heels. I was surprised to see no claim, not even a vanilla claim, even though he felt a self defense vote was warranted.

vote Tom Scud

[Red Skeezix]

So it's a bit disingenuous to claim that 1) everyone who had voted for Tom the Day before voted for him again, when I'm only counting two of the four;

I think its a bit disingenuous to claim that two of the four (50%) were voting for him the next day when only 3 of Tom's voters were alive the next day. So two of the three (66%). And the third hadn't even posted yet that day, so that would be 2 of 2 present or 100%.

[Drain Bead]

I think its a bit disingenuous to claim that two of the four (50%) were voting for him the next day when only 3 of Tom's voters were alive the next day. So two of the three (66%). And the third hadn't even posted yet that day, so that would be 2 of 2 present or 100%.

Didn't catch that one of them was the NK. I was just looking for bold blue posts that said Tom Scud and comparing that to the number of people who were voting for him the Day before, since what was said was that all of the people who had voted for him previously had revoted.

[Drain Bead]

Also, my larger point in going over the history was that the vast majority of that Day was spent talking about anything other than Tom, in part due to a Meeko-created distraction after the Mason claim. So I think it was a valid point to say that Tom wasn't being discussed as much as I would have thought, given how the previous Day had ended.

Right now, if I had to pick, I think our remaining Scum are Tom, ed, and Meeko, with one other either remaining at large or dead without reveal.

[special ed]

1. Case against drain: Meeko's point about drain being 'Teflon' is pretty ridiculous. If Drain was doing all of the things she has done for pro-town reasons, wouldn't she be able to defend herself with her original reasoning? The rest of the reasons provided seem reasonable, but I find myself in greater agreement with the case against Tom.

2. Case against Tom: I find myself in agreement with some of these points. Some not so much, see my own case below:



I was considering voting for Tom largely because:

1. The more I think about it, the more Oredigger's Chronos seems like a defensive play. It kept Chronos in the running to be lynched when things seemed to me to be switching back to Tom.

2. The slip, I think it nets out to null, but it is another point (small) against him.

3. The hypocrisy in the quoted statement above. He is chastising drain for skimming meeko's posts but feels comfortable enough to make a case against meeko with a nod to (paraphrased) "I didn't bother to reread, but here's my case against him anyways".

Hmm that wasn't very clear. To clarify, To me it seems like both drain and tom are encouraging a dismissive attitude towards meeko's posts, but tom sees this dismissiveness as a scum trait when drain does it, but not when he himself does it.

4. As drain has pointed out, he was close enough to the noose feel the devil tugging on his heels. I was surprised to see no claim, not even a vanilla claim, even though he felt a self defense vote was warranted.



I can see the case. I'll need to re-read. I think point 3 though, is not a Scum-tell. It's just poor play if you're Scum or Town

[Mahaloth]

OK, so I haven't had a lot to say today mainly because I got my vote out there early and have little to respond to the conversations I've seen. I still think Tom is the best vote for the Day and I've seen little reason to change my vote at this point. I think Red did a pretty good job summarizing the situation with Tom.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

As far as I can see we have the following:

Drain (2): Special Ed 1225, Meeko 1256
Tom (3): Drain 1227, Mahaloth 1232, Red 1268
Red (1): Guiri 1246
Meeko (1): Tom 1264

@ Cookies and Rysto, I'd suggest the 3 of us should attempt to vote together toDay. With our votes plus one or more of the townies from the unconfirmed pool, we should be able to avoid any scum manipulation of the lynch. We may have one mislynch left but we can't be sure...

@ Cookies, I'm in a bit of a situation with regards to Tom. I'm starting to buy into the cases being made against him but, when I look at who's voting him, I'm uncomfortable. I've already expressed suspicions of both Red and Mahaloth and I can't reconcile those suspicions with a vote on the same candidate - although they may be bussing Tom...

Until his latest post, which just confirms his vote, Mahaloth's total contribution to toDay was his vote post. He hasn't responded to my question about his memory loss after Story was killed and he didn't bother to comment to Tom about the illogical argument in that same post. The whole "people, we need to talk" and "I've nothing to say" really bothered me along with the "Was witch town?" question after Peeker's flip.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I definitely agree that we should try and vote together as a block. I'll need to do a re-read on Mahaloth though.

[Tom Scud]

Didn't catch that one of them was the NK. I was just looking for bold blue posts that said Tom Scud and comparing that to the number of people who were voting for him the Day before, since what was said was that all of the people who had voted for him previously had revoted.

I'm sorry. I'm pretty sure I mentioned earlier that only the people who had previously voted me and had posted in the thread, meaning not Chronos and not Zeriel, had re-voted me. But I guess that since you can't be bothered to read, you must be Town. I think you argued that somewhere. But I can't be bothered to read.

[Tom Scud]

3. The hypocrisy in the quoted statement above. He is chastising drain for skimming meeko's posts but feels comfortable enough to make a case against meeko with a nod to (paraphrased) "I didn't bother to reread, but here's my case against him anyways".


Screw you Red. I'd just read through ed's 150 posts, mahaloth's 60, drain's 50, and your 30 whole big posts, two or three of which were longer than three lines. Fucking hell am I going to spend the rest of the night reading Meeko.

[Tom Scud]

OK, so I haven't had a lot to say today mainly because I got my vote out there early and have little to respond to the conversations I've seen. I still think Tom is the best vote for the Day and I've seen little reason to change my vote at this point. I think Red did a pretty good job summarizing the situation with Tom.

And thank you, Captain "me, too". I'm sure you're damn busy these days which explains the ten posts in the last three weeks, three of which were "oh i guess i'll still vote for Tom because I can't be bothered to read or respond to his responses to me."

[Tom Scud]

2. This is the biggie for me--he was the one who "caught" the typo in Oredigger's original claim. He had to go back pretty far to catch that. To me, it seems like he may have caught his teammate making the typo ahead of time (or some other Scum did and pointed it out in their thread) then decided to use it against him for Town cred later on (and to craft a fake claim as well). It all just seems way too orchestrated for me, especially since it came about when Tom had one foot in the fire.


You know what, this is how I play the game, in the later days. I go back through people's history, post by post, and look for shit that others missed. That's how I found stuff by Mahaloth and Ed from two days ago.


3. After getting heat, he started lurking. To me, a Townie goes down swinging.


Well, I'm fucking sorry I didn't spend like sixty posts whining about how everyone who voted for me is scum, and then cap it off by voting for myself. That and your unerring sense of Normal's towniness won us Screamers, as I recall.

In summary, screw you all.

[Drain Bead]

You know, Tom, there's a way to defend yourself and not be douchey about it. That having been said, what you're doing now kinda makes me think of the story vs. sachertorte fight in Cecil Pond. I actually hope you're not Scum, because if you're faking taking all this stuff personally, I'm going to be very offended, instead of just mildly miffed.

[color=red]unvote Tom[color]

I know that puts me in a tie for the lead. I'm straight-up boring vanilla Town, and I will vote with the Masons, provided they don't end up voting for me.

[Drain Bead]

Oh, eff.

unvote Tom

[special ed]

If nothing else, toDay seems to have given us a lot to look at and think about.

We've got less than 19 hours left in the Day by my calculation.

[Drain Bead]

Yeah, if the Masons could at least start spelling out their suspicions and start discussing in the thread who to vote for, that would be awesome.

[Drain Bead]

Sorry, that came off snippy and I didn't mean it to be at all.

[Mahaloth]

And thank you, Captain "me, too". I'm sure you're damn busy these days which explains the ten posts in the last three weeks, three of which were "oh i guess i'll still vote for Tom because I can't be bothered to read or respond to his responses to me."

Uh, I don't think I've been Captain "me too". I've been busy a bit and I'll admit I have not been super talkative, but "me too" is far from what I've been. In fact, I've had my votes out pretty early on most Days. I think I was later on Day One, but I've had(IMHO) early votes with support on most Days.

:confused:

Oh, and Guiri, I didn't see your question until now(must have missed it). I've just re-read myself(from that day) now since it has been awhile, and I'm not sure I get what the problem/confusion is for you. I was saying, at the time of the vote, that at least story explains his votes. The next day, I think I was saying "i don't get it" because of the detective revelation. I was saying, I don't get his vote for me in relation to him being a detective. In fact, I clarified it, saying that he must have not found scum on his first investigation, since his vote rested on me, a townie. If he had found scum, his vote would have been on them.

I mean, I didn't think it was contradictory or forgetful at all.

[Tom Scud]

Meh. I'll make it easy.

I'm done with this game (and by that I mean Mafia) tout court, I think. Either I die early and feel like a sap or I live a long time and it turns into this horrible chore that I hate; and then I get into a contested lynch that leaves me feeling emotionally strung out and pissy and exhausted (the pissiness above is real, Drain) in ways that mess with my real life. I don't fucking WANT to play another week of this.

So please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of not much wealth and no great taste. I shouted out, "Who killed the Kennedys?" when actually it was, well, me. And Sirhan Sirhan, seeing as how I was dead by then.

My name is Lee Harvey Oswald, I am an Assassin, and I win with the Scum, and as noted above I'm done with this game.

Apologies to the scum team, and to the rest of y'all for not carrying through with the game.

[Drain Bead]

vote Tom

I've never been so sad to be right.

[Drain Bead]

And Tom, I'm really sorry. If the game is stressing you out, you need to step back. I did for a couple of years, actually, although part of that was due to being pregnant and then having a kid. FWIW, I think I was a lot harder on ed than I was on you, and I enjoy playing with you and hope you can come back to the game eventually with a fresh outlook.

[Meeko]

You mean to tell me a Scum just claimed Scum?


Meh. Only a game.

I doubt it's true, but, if he wants out.

Unvote Drain

Vote Tom

[Meeko]

/OOG

Freudian, are you in the market for some new house shoes (http://www.mentalfloss.com/store/product.php?productid=16155)?

/OOG

[special ed]

I tend to forget how emotionally draining the game can be from time to time. It can be difficult when you feel like you have to argue against people who just don't belive you.

I came close to quitting a couple of games when I was newer, especially one where Santo Rugger was riding me hard because I wasn't understanding him. Turns out I had good reason not to understand him anyway.

I know from time to time I might seem like I'm harsh and overly critical. I hope everyone understands it's all in the game for me. I don't think you can get the same level of information when you're all sweet and nice that you can when you're persistent and prodding. I enjoy playing with everyone here and on Idle and Giraffe as well. Honestly, I really do. I might not appreciate everyone's style of playing and/or communicating, but I don't expect everyone to play the way I want them to, even while I reserve the right to demand that they do. :D

[special ed]

unvote: Drain

vote: Tom

[Rysto]

Holy cow, have I been right about a single thing yet? YesterDay I was all ready to go and defend Digger and then he claimed Doc, and toDay I'm ready to defend Tom and then he confesses? Whatever, I'll take it.

Vote Tom

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I wish you the utmost success in your de-mafia-izing, Tom. You're fun to play with and I hope you come back around.

Vote Tom

[Rysto]

Ok. so gamestate analysis. This is going to be complicated by the fact that MHaye and Zeriel died without a cardflip. Let's hope that they weren't power roles.

We have had 1 cop, 1 doctor, 1 vig and 3 masons in this game. Under Jexton's point system, there are 4 points for the cop, 3 points for me, 2.5 for the vig and 7.5 points for the masons, that's 17 points from our known power roles. We began with 20 players. Doing a bit of quick math, if there are no more power roles, then the game is exactly balanced with 5.6 scum. That doesn't work out too well, so maybe there's a scum power role out there. If there were a redirector or roleblocker, I should be dead right now. Scum wouldn't want to leave me alive and risk the power role being killed. If there is a godfather, then 1 godfather plus 4 scum gives us 25.5 points for the scum and 26 points for the Town. So I agree with the people who are guessing that we had 5 scum in this game.

[special ed]

Ok. so gamestate analysis. This is going to be complicated by the fact that MHaye and Zeriel died without a cardflip. Let's hope that they weren't power roles.

We have had 1 cop, 1 doctor, 1 vig and 3 masons in this game. Under Jexton's point system, there are 4 points for the cop, 3 points for me, 2.5 for the vig and 7.5 points for the masons, that's 17 points from our known power roles. We began with 20 players. Doing a bit of quick math, if there are no more power roles, then the game is exactly balanced with 5.6 scum. That doesn't work out too well, so maybe there's a scum power role out there. If there were a redirector or roleblocker, I should be dead right now. Scum wouldn't want to leave me alive and risk the power role being killed. If there is a godfather, then 1 godfather plus 4 scum gives us 25.5 points for the scum and 26 points for the Town. So I agree with the people who are guessing that we had 5 scum in this game.

sachertorte is not a firm believer in the JSexton pointing system.

[Rysto]

Day One

peekercpa (4): Zeriel 151 190, TexCat 314 356, Chronos 360, Meeko 383, Freudian Slit 478, Mahaloth 482
KellyCriterion (3): NAF1138 313, Jimmy Chitwood 484, Tom Scud 571
Chronos (3): storyteller0910 416 564, peekercpa 450, storyteller0910 590, MHaye 591
Drain Bead (2): Zeriel 560, special ed 565
TexCat (1): Red Skeezix 316, Tom Scud 328 571, peekercpa 346 450
Oredigger77 (1): Drain Bead 347
Red Skeezix (1): TexCat 356, Freudian Slit 364 478
Zeriel (1): storyteller0910 564 567, One And Only Wanderers 570
Rysto (1): GuiriEnEspaña 576
Freudian Slit (1): Rysto 577
NAF1138 (0): One And Only Wanderers 179 288, KellyCriterion 242 244
storyteller0910 (0): peekercpa 116 201
One And Only Wanderers (0): Chronos 180 360, Jimmy Chitwood 184, Meeko 220 291
Mahaloth (0): Meeko 291 298
Not Voting (2) : KellyCriterion, Oredigger77

Day Two

One And Only Wanderers (8): Jimmy Chitwood 757, Oredigger77 760, Freudian Slit 763, Mahaloth 815, GuiriEnEspaña 855, Drain Bead 865, Zeriel 874, Chronos 882
Freudian Slit (8): Rysto 655, Meeko 666, Tom Scud 783, Red Skeezix 835, special ed 861, OAOW 871, TexCat 880, MHaye 885
Mahaloth (1): storyteller0910 833
Jimmy Chitwood (0): Oredigger 717 734, One And Only Wanderers 751 871, TexCat 795 880
Drain Bead (0): Zeriel 715 874
GuiriEnEspaña (0): Chronos 803 882
TexCat (0): Tom Scud 706 783
Tom Scud (0): Mahaloth 787 815
Meeko (0): Freudian Slit 651 763

Day Three

Chronos (7): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, GuiriEnEspaña 1000, Tom Scud 1002, Rysto 1005, Jimmy Chitwood 1013
Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004 1013
Oredigger77 (2): special ed 995, MHaye 1015
Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941
TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002, Meeko 982

Day Four

Oredigger77 (10): GuiriEnEspaña 1032, TexCat 1035, special ed 1037, Drain Bead 1039, Tom Scud 1047, MHaye 1116, Rysto 1127, Mahaloth 1135, Red Skeezix 1136, Zeriel 1164
Rysto (2): Oredigger77 1137, Meeko 1153
Tom Scud (1): Mahaloth 1031 1133, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 1111
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (0): Rysto 1028 1051
TexCat (0): Meeko 1029 1110

Day Five(before Tom's claim)

Drain (2): Special Ed 1225, Meeko 1256
Tom (3): Drain 1227, Mahaloth 1232, Red 1268
Red (1): Guiri 1246
Meeko (1): Tom 1264

Player List:

Alive:

Tom Scud
special ed
Red Skeezix
Meeko
Mahaloth
GuiriEnEspana
Cookies
Rysto
Drain Bead



Dead:
Oredigger
Freudian Slit
storyteller
MHaye
NAF1138
Jimmy Chitwood
One and Only Wanderers
Chronos
Zeriel
peekercpa
TexCat


That Day Three lynch is clearly the critical one. I would bet a significant amount of money that there is exactly one scum among Red Skeezix and Drain Bead. I doubt that scum would be so blatant as to vote three in a row in opposition to the Tom lynch, but that vote count really makes it look like they went in pretty heavily to save him.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

An interesting night. Tom, sorry to see you go and sorry the game was no longer fun for you. I hope to play with you again.

My name is Lee Harvey Oswald, I am an Assassin, and I win with the Scum, and as noted above I'm done with this game.
So at least one scum has an evil name after all.

I guess both Drain and Mahaloth (& Cookies) get brownie points for their persistence in their case against Tom, well done guys. Another small point in Drain's favor is her unique profession, I doubt "Spiritual Leader of the Nation of Argentina" was a false claim.

That Day Three lynch is clearly the critical one. I would bet a significant amount of money that there is exactly one scum among Red Skeezix and Drain Bead. I doubt that scum would be so blatant as to vote three in a row in opposition to the Tom lynch, but that vote count really makes it look like they went in pretty heavily to save him.
Agreed, this makes sense.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

Oops, forgot to vote.

Unvote
Vote Tom Scud

[special ed]

Another small point in Drain's favor is her unique profession, I doubt "Spiritual Leader of the Nation of Argentina" was a false claim.




Although Eva Peron wouldn't be universally considered a 'good role' just like many presidents.

[Drain Bead]

If I had to guess, I'd say the remaining Scum are ed (for reasons I've already stated), Meeko (his reasons for voting me toDay were as weak as Digger on Chronos, with the added benefit of me knowing that he's making a weak vote on Town, and did so earlier when he voted Rysto instead of Digger, and having played Scum with him before so knowing he doesn't quite get the whole bussing thing), and one of either Mahaloth or Skeezix, just based on voting patterns. Tom, IIRC, lambasted them both pretty heavily right before he flamed out, so I have to think there may have been some tiny bit of strategy there, to throw a Scum who was bussing him into his rants about the votes he was getting.

[special ed]

If I had to guess, I'd say the remaining Scum are ed (for reasons I've already stated), Meeko (his reasons for voting me toDay were as weak as Digger on Chronos, with the added benefit of me knowing that he's making a weak vote on Town, and did so earlier when he voted Rysto instead of Digger, and having played Scum with him before so knowing he doesn't quite get the whole bussing thing), and one of either Mahaloth or Skeezix, just based on voting patterns. Tom, IIRC, lambasted them both pretty heavily right before he flamed out, so I have to think there may have been some tiny bit of strategy there, to throw a Scum who was bussing him into his rants about the votes he was getting.

We're actually in remarkable agreement, though I'd replace drain with ed, and I'd put Meeko first on the list.

[Mahaloth]

Wow, I guess I was right about Tom awhile ago. I'm a bit disappointed for anyone to just quit and give up like that. I mean, I'm assuming he's telling the truth about everything, so it's weird to see that happen.

Tom, I never picked up that you didn't enjoy Mafia. I thought you rather liked it. Weird.

[Tom Scud]

Well. Generally, I like it until I really, really, hate it. This has been a recurring theme in pretty much every game I've played for more than one Day (and one game that I played for less than one Day), so, you know, on balance I think I'm happier living without it.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

So those who are suspecting Meeko, you think his reaction to my un-forced mason claim was not authentic, and that he was putting strategic metagame use to the communication and playstyle challenges that usually spring up in games where he is Town?

[sachertorte]

Hey I'm stuck in a meeting. But it looks like Tom Scud thoughtfully did the dusk reveal for me. So consider it night now. I'll post a proper dusk later. As far as I can tell, no one gets removed today, but I need to check that too.

[ShadowFacts]

I'll make it super double-dog official:

Tom Scud (8): Drain Bead 1227 1281 1287, Mahaloth 1232, Red Skeezix 1268, Meeko 1289, special ed 1292, Rysto 1293, Cookies 1294, GuiriEnEspaña 1299

Meeko (1): Tom Scud (1264)

Drain Bead (0): special ed 1225 1292, Meeko 1256 1289

Red Skeezix (0): GuiriEnEspaña 1246 1299


Tom Scud (Assassin) is dead.

[Meeko]

So those who are suspecting Meeko, you think his reaction to my un-forced mason claim was not authentic, and that he was putting strategic metagame use to the communication and playstyle challenges that usually spring up in games where he is Town?

Thanks? I think?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I should not have said usually. I should have said often. I tried to choose my words carefully because I do think it can be a challenge for some people to read Meeko and it can also be a challenge to read people reading Meeko. I like challenges. They keep the game interesting.

[Red Skeezix]

So those who are suspecting Meeko, you think his reaction to my un-forced mason claim was not authentic, and that he was putting strategic metagame use to the communication and playstyle challenges that usually spring up in games where he is Town?

Not in my opinion. In my experience, a town or scum meeko reacts pretty much the same to any stimulus which he finds scummy regardless of what team he is on (see me v meeko in colorless day 2 regarding peeker's claim). The only caveat being, when he is scum he seems less likely to engage a fellow scum player.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Not in my opinion. In my experience, a town or scum meeko reacts pretty much the same to any stimulus which he finds scummy regardless of what team he is on (see me v meeko in colorless day 2 regarding peeker's claim). The only caveat being, when he is scum he seems less likely to engage a fellow scum player.

I don't agree. I think "any stimulus which he finds scummy" has very different connotations when you consider any perfect information that may apply. You make it sound like he is flawlessly able to compartmentalize any perfect information he might have and calibrate a perfectly weighted Townie Meeko (tm) response to anything that a Townie Meeko would find suspicious. I don't know anyone who can do that in such a flawless manner.

For better or worse, Meeko's reaction to my claim strikes me as authentic in the sense that I don't think he would have been able to achieve the same vibe if he trying to float those posts were he scum.

[Drain Bead]

Although Eva Peron wouldn't be universally considered a 'good role' just like many presidents.

Well, wasn't the other dead Scum George Washington? Down the way of analyzing role names lies madness in this game, I think. Not only is it damned easy to make shit up, it's also not guaranteed that Scum are going to get evil names.

[Drain Bead]

For better or worse, Meeko's reaction to my claim strikes me as authentic in the sense that I don't think he would have been able to achieve the same vibe if he trying to float those posts were he scum.

Can you point me to some specifics as to what you mean here?

[special ed]

Well, wasn't the other dead Scum George Washington? Down the way of analyzing role names lies madness in this game, I think. Not only is it damned easy to make shit up, it's also not guaranteed that Scum are going to get evil names.

They claimed George Washington, but were only revealed as "PResident"

[special ed]

I don't agree. I think "any stimulus which he finds scummy" has very different connotations when you consider any perfect information that may apply. You make it sound like he is flawlessly able to compartmentalize any perfect information he might have and calibrate a perfectly weighted Townie Meeko (tm) response to anything that a Townie Meeko would find suspicious. I don't know anyone who can do that in such a flawless manner.

For better or worse, Meeko's reaction to my claim strikes me as authentic in the sense that I don't think he would have been able to achieve the same vibe if he trying to float those posts were he scum.

I think what sways me to think Meeko is Scum is his "authentic" reaction to the Rysto/Oredigger counter claims. Despite all the evidence pointing to Oredigger having reason for fake claiming and Rysto having none, he voted for Rysto.

Give us some post numbers on his reactions that make you think he's Town. What I remember from the interaction was him practically demanding a third mason claim before he'd believe anything. That strikes me as a tiny bit of Scum fishing to me.

[Drain Bead]

Give us some post numbers on his reactions that make you think he's Town. What I remember from the interaction was him practically demanding a third mason claim before he'd believe anything. That strikes me as a tiny bit of Scum fishing to me.

I also think that Meeko has been a Mason enough to understand the general strategy--absent a counterclaim, Mason claims should generally be trusted. So his level of skepticism seems even more suspicious to me. Then again, he's done some crazy shit as a Mason before, so who knows? This is why dealing with Meeko is so frustrating to me. I haven't read the game where he supposedly got into a fight with a fellow Mason, but I've heard about it, and as a co-Mason with him in Cecil Pond, I was pulling my hair out when he claimed with no real pressure on him to do so.

[Red Skeezix]

I don't agree. I think "any stimulus which he finds scummy" has very different connotations when you consider any perfect information that may apply. You make it sound like he is flawlessly able to compartmentalize any perfect information he might have and calibrate a perfectly weighted Townie Meeko (tm) response to anything that a Townie Meeko would find suspicious. I don't know anyone who can do that in such a flawless manner.

For better or worse, Meeko's reaction to my claim strikes me as authentic in the sense that I don't think he would have been able to achieve the same vibe if he trying to float those posts were he scum.

I'm actually saying almost the exact opposite. I'm saying that Townie Meeko and Scummy Meeko find the same types of things scummy, no compartmentalization at all. After reading the post game and spoilers for colorless, I was a little shocked. He was really convinced that I was being scummy and he was scum and he knew I wasn't scum. I agree with you that I think Meeko's reaction to your claim was authentic, but I don't agree with you that that makes him town. Heck, in C3 he wanted to NK the alpha wolf and he was one of the wolves, and his play was completely authentic then too.

[Mahaloth]

Wow, that's some in-depth analysis to Meeko's gameplay. I've observed only one game(It hink) where he was scum and I thought his gameplay was more or less the same as any other time. He actually was less reactionary, but that is something he was working on and would not have changed if he was scum or town.

[Drain Bead]

Shouldn't the Day have started by now?

[sachertorte]

Shouldn't the Day have started by now?

Yes. But busy times call for busy schedules.
Okay, I'm not all that busy, just distracted. I'm going to Disneyworld!

Since things like murder and lynch-mobs are terribly un-Disneylike. ShadowFacts will be handling the End of Day 6. Please send all queries and instructions to ShadowFacts.

Oh, and GuiriEnEspaña (Freemason) is dead.

[Meeko]

as a co-Mason with him in Cecil Pond, I was pulling my hair out when he claimed with no real pressure on him to do so.

Not that I expect you to ever, ever understand, but I was pulling my hair out not being open with being a mason.

[special ed]

vote Meeko

[Drain Bead]

Not that I expect you to ever, ever understand, but I was pulling my hair out not being open with being a mason.

I know it can be stressful to be confirmable Town and have others not trust you, but you gotta learn to suck it up. First off, there are always going to be people pretending not to trust you. Second, it's best for your team that you do not claim unless forced.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Wait, so Meeko was giving me a bunch of grief over something that he's done himself in the past (claim Mason under no pressure) with even less reason to do so than I had? At least my information helped (I think) to flush Tom out.

I also find it interesting that I'm the last Mason standing. Why kill off TexCat and Guiri first? It could be because of a lot of things not having anything to do with me in particular. It could be because I'm a sub and the scum think I have a bit of a handicap because of that. It could be because I've been fairly public in giving Meeko the benefit of the doubt. It could be reverse psychology wifom, or none of the above. But Meeko's reaction does ring a bit hollow if I'm understanding you, Drain.

[Red Skeezix]

Wait, so Meeko was giving me a bunch of grief over something that he's done himself in the past (claim Mason under no pressure) with even less reason to do so than I had? At least my information helped (I think) to flush Tom out.

I don't think the situation is as analogous as has been presented. In the Cecil Pond game, Meeko was carrying a layer of background suspicion due to some fast paced vote switching and attempted abrogation of accountability. Had Meeko not claimed, all it would have taken was a day where there wasn't much else to go on and he would have been forced into a claim anyways.

[Drain Bead]

I don't think the situation is as analogous as has been presented. In the Cecil Pond game, Meeko was carrying a layer of background suspicion due to some fast paced vote switching and attempted abrogation of accountability. Had Meeko not claimed, all it would have taken was a day where there wasn't much else to go on and he would have been forced into a claim anyways.

Yeah, but at the time he was getting no heat whatsoever, and his claim led to a whole lotta bad shit going down, pretty much. He may have eventually been forced to claim, but he was certainly not forced then...and I would expect him, of all people, to have been somewhat sympathetic to what you and TexCat did. (You see what I did there?)

This is an interesting defense of Meeko by Red here. I know that someone I think is Scum is voting for him, but I think he's Scum too, and damn if I don't think that killing Meeko will give us more info than killing damn near anyone.

vote Meeko

[Meeko]

This is an interesting defense of Meeko by Red here. I know that someone I think is Scum is voting for him, but I think he's Scum too, and damn if I don't think that killing Meeko will give us more info than killing damn near anyone.


Wait.

Wait.

Wait.

You are Voting me, because of something Red said, about a different Game??! :confused: :eek:

No Dice.

OMGUS or whatever.

I think it is a fact that all death reaveals are info for the town.

But, you know, I just want to be there [paradoxically] when Drain gets this one wrong.

Vote Drain.

[Meeko]

NETA: Et tu Ed.

[special ed]

NETA: Et tu Ed.

I know Meeko, your OMGUSes are remarkably consistent Scum or Town.

[special ed]

Copying and adding to Rysto's work:

Day One

peekercpa (4): Zeriel 151 190, TexCat 314 356, Chronos 360, Meeko 383, Freudian Slit 478, Mahaloth 482
KellyCriterion (3): NAF1138 313, Jimmy Chitwood 484, Tom Scud 571
Chronos (3): storyteller0910 416 564, peekercpa 450, storyteller0910 590, MHaye 591
Drain Bead (2): Zeriel 560, special ed 565
TexCat (1): Red Skeezix 316, Tom Scud 328 571, peekercpa 346 450
Oredigger77 (1): Drain Bead 347
Red Skeezix (1): TexCat 356, Freudian Slit 364 478
Zeriel (1): storyteller0910 564 567, One And Only Wanderers 570
Rysto (1): GuiriEnEspaña 576
Freudian Slit (1): Rysto 577
NAF1138 (0): One And Only Wanderers 179 288, KellyCriterion 242 244
storyteller0910 (0): peekercpa 116 201
One And Only Wanderers (0): Chronos 180 360, Jimmy Chitwood 184, Meeko 220 291
Mahaloth (0): Meeko 291 298
Not Voting (2) : KellyCriterion, Oredigger77

Day Two

One And Only Wanderers (8): Jimmy Chitwood 757, Oredigger77 760, Freudian Slit 763, Mahaloth 815, GuiriEnEspaña 855, Drain Bead 865, Zeriel 874, Chronos 882
Freudian Slit (8): Rysto 655, Meeko 666, Tom Scud 783, Red Skeezix 835, special ed 861, OAOW 871, TexCat 880, MHaye 885
Mahaloth (1): storyteller0910 833
Jimmy Chitwood (0): Oredigger 717 734, One And Only Wanderers 751 871, TexCat 795 880
Drain Bead (0): Zeriel 715 874
GuiriEnEspaña (0): Chronos 803 882
TexCat (0): Tom Scud 706 783
Tom Scud (0): Mahaloth 787 815
Meeko (0): Freudian Slit 651 763

Day Three

Chronos (7): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, GuiriEnEspaña 1000, Tom Scud 1002, Rysto 1005, Jimmy Chitwood 1013
Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004 1013
Oredigger77 (2): special ed 995, MHaye 1015
Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941
TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002, Meeko 982

Day Four

Oredigger77 (10): GuiriEnEspaña 1032, TexCat 1035, special ed 1037, Drain Bead 1039, Tom Scud 1047, MHaye 1116, Rysto 1127, Mahaloth 1135, Red Skeezix 1136, Zeriel 1164
Rysto (2): Oredigger77 1137, Meeko 1153
Tom Scud (1): Mahaloth 1031 1133, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 1111
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (0): Rysto 1028 1051
TexCat (0): Meeko 1029 1110

Day Five(before Tom's claim)

Drain (2): Special Ed 1225, Meeko 1256
Tom (3): Drain 1227, Mahaloth 1232, Red 1268
Red (1): Guiri 1246
Meeko (1): Tom 1264

Day 5 (after Tom's claim)

Tom Scud (8): Drain Bead 1227 1281 1287, Mahaloth 1232, Red Skeezix 1268, Meeko 1289, special ed 1292, Rysto 1293, Cookies 1294, GuiriEnEspaña 1299
Meeko (1): Tom Scud (1264)
Drain Bead (0): special ed 1225 1292, Meeko 1256 1289
Red Skeezix (0): GuiriEnEspaña 1246 1299

Player List:

Alive:

special ed
Red Skeezix
Meeko
Mahaloth
Cookies
Rysto
Drain Bead



Dead:
Oredigger
Freudian Slit
storyteller
MHaye
NAF1138
Jimmy Chitwood
One and Only Wanderers
Chronos
Zeriel
peekercpa
TexCat
Tom Scud
GuiriEnEspana


That Day Three lynch is clearly the critical one. I would bet a significant amount of money that there is exactly one scum among Red Skeezix and Drain Bead. I doubt that scum would be so blatant as to vote three in a row in opposition to the Tom lynch, but that vote count really makes it look like they went in pretty heavily to save him.

Watching Drain's recent play, and seeing Red 'defend' Meeko is leading me to agree with you, but think that maybe Red is the Scum.

We've got 5 Unknown and 2 Confirmed.

If there are 3 Scum left, we're at lynch or lose 4-3 with a 60% random chance of hitting a Scum in the unconfirmed pool.

If, as I think is more likely, there are 2 Scum left, we've still got a mislynch 5-2, but only a 40% chance of randomly hitting a Scum in the unconfirmed pool.

If, on the off chance, we've only got 1 Scum left, we're at 6-1 with 2 mislynches, and only a 20% chance of hitting a Scum toDay in the unconfirmed pool.

Of course, another thing that troubles me is that when Tom 'imploded' the votes were on Tom, Drain, and Meeko and each of them was voting for one of the others. I really don't know what that means, but I keep noticig it when I look at the votes

[Red Skeezix]

Yeah, but at the time he was getting no heat whatsoever, and his claim led to a whole lotta bad shit going down, pretty much. He may have eventually been forced to claim, but he was certainly not forced then...and I would expect him, of all people, to have been somewhat sympathetic to what you and TexCat did. (You see what I did there?)

This is an interesting defense of Meeko by Red here. I know that someone I think is Scum is voting for him, but I think he's Scum too, and damn if I don't think that killing Meeko will give us more info than killing damn near anyone.


I assume by "you" you meant Cookies. I did claim unprovoked in that game, but I don't think that's what you meant.

Also, don't go all jumping to conclusions that I'm standing in defense of Meeko. I'm not, it's more of a refinement of argument, a separating the wheat from the chaff, kind statement where I'm saying that that argument against Meeko is IMO bunk. I'm largely leaning towards Meeko as scum because of the vote for Rysto, which I still cannot reconcile with how Meeko determined that Rysto was the scummier between Oredigger and Rysto.

[Meeko]

I know Meeko, your OMGUSes are remarkably consistent Scum or Town.

I would expect nothing less from a scum.

But, I think Drain has you beat.

After all, you guys know that I play differently. No one understands me, even if they attempt.

So, I could be on to something, and no one would know.

[special ed]

I would expect nothing less from a scum.

But, I think Drain has you beat.

After all, you guys know that I play differently. No one understands me, even if they attempt.

So, I could be on to something, and no one would know.

not even you, I fear.

[Meeko]

not even you, I fear.

You got me.

There is something I don't understand.

Your reasons for voting me today.

[special ed]

You got me.

There is something I don't understand.

Your reasons for voting me today.

That I can help you with....

1. You voted for Rysto instead of Oredigger despite the fact that it was made no sense for a Scum Rysto to counter-claim Oredigger. This fits in with your desire to avoid lynching a Scum teammate at all costs that I've seen when you were Scum.


2. And this is very metagame: You've posted much less to the game, especially as the game goes on. I know you've had real-life circumstances, and so, this really isn't a major point, but I thought I'd provide it because a) it's another data point, and b) It will give you something to argue about while avoiding the main points of the case against you, which I fully expect you to do.

3. When Cookies claimed as Masons for herself and TexCat, you demanded a 3rd Mason claim. There is no Town reason for doing so. Claiming Mason as Scum would have been foolhardy. If TexCat weren't also Scum with Cookies, We'd know when TexCat told us and lynched Cookies. If they were both Scum, we'd have known as soon as a real Mason claimed. Your demand of a 3rd mason claim wasn't the move of a Twon player.

4. When you voted for Tom after he claimed Scum, you stated that you doubted it was true. It seems odd, as we know there are no 3rd party players, why on Earth would a Town player claim Scum?

5. Your weak vote for TexCat on Day 2 (for questioning the blue=Town) coupled with a weak vote for Freudian on Day 2 (An OMGUS vote because she found your assumption that Kelly was Town very telling.) The Freduian vote is a minor point, and it would have been moot had Kelly flipped Scum, but he didn't. Your vote on Drain on Day 5 because she was able to defend herself. (and yes, I now I was voting for Drain, but I had actual reasons).

In total, 5 makes up a pattern of voting that appear like a Scum searching for reasons to vote rather than a Townie trying to make cases.

6. You've not made as many comments on the cases presented by others as I would expect from you. In previous games, it seemed like you often had a comment on the cases against people. In this game, you've made a few votes for weak reasoning and a lot of OMGUS voting. I think it might be because it's difficult to come up with cases as Scum, but the fear of lynching drives you to focus on those voting for you. And yes, I know this isn't a strong case, since you're an historic OMGUS voter, but I still seem to recall more commenting on the game as it goes by. I theorize that we're getting fewer comments from you because, perhaps, you have fewer questions since you know who is Scum and who is Town.

[special ed]

NETA to point 4. The vote for TexCat was on Day 3.

[Meeko]

I will go ahead and say that I think we are near Ly/Lo. It gets obvious as more Days progress, but I just feel like we are there. I assure you, its a naive town feeling. But, I feel It needs to be said.

That I can help you with....

>>> Interesting that I had to ask. My habits or play style aside, votes first, and reasons after appear to be a tad "cherry picking", and / or "shopped" ex post facto.

1. You voted for Rysto instead of Oredigger despite the fact that it was made no sense for a Scum Rysto to counter-claim Oredigger. This fits in with your desire to avoid lynching a Scum teammate at all costs that I've seen when you were Scum.

>>> I am not saying I am there yet. I think my vote between these two here illustrate my point. However, once I get "There", the point where my play is on par with the rest of you guys, I know, I KNOW that thinking outside of the box (and done correctly) will be my strong suit, in spades.

To me, much of Mafia is stuck in a rut. To me, ruts help Scum. Granted, Mafia has a (relative) strict framework to begin with, only so many "moves" can be worked from X number of bits, from Y number of Town or Scum players. Power roles certainly add to this, but I think a few people will agree Mafia is getting long in the tooth for our group, with the given rule set, as is. Not saying Mafia is a dead man walking, just, something needs to shake it up.

Rules can shake it up.

Town doing different things, where the overall Town record suggests something needs to give, to help the Town record, could change it up.

Not so sure we can have this both ways. Either I am ""Meeko"" and my style of play comes with it, and I am allowed to be ""Meeko"", or I am not.

I just think Town needs to do different things. Town needs a better record.

2. And this is very metagame: You've posted much less to the game, especially as the game goes on. I know you've had real-life circumstances, and so, this really isn't a major point, but I thought I'd provide it because a) it's another data point, and b) It will give you something to argue about while avoiding the main points of the case against you, which I fully expect you to do.

>>>> Other people have expressed disgust with Mafia in this game. I have been vocal in both Pond and SSB 2. I thought I was off the game for good. Mafia has lost something to me. The recent conversations, in game with Peeker [Was that this game] notwithstanding.

I thought Mafia was something I could get on board with. You guys continue to prove me wrong. There is no better way to put this, but to say, I know there are parts of me I can not change. I know there are people out there that would play, if they could. Those people get me instantly. That person knows who they are, and again, I will move mountains to play in a game with that person.

As I said before, I will say again, I feel you guys need to meet me part way here. I'm not even saying halfway. But, I think you guys haven't move, if not retreated.

I took on multiple jobs. One job quickly became a job I could not handle. It was a part time job, but the emotional baggage I attached to it made it more than full time. Before I knew it, it was mid April. It was like I woke up, and half of the month had gone.

Would be remiss if I don't hit the "Damned if I do, damned if I dont" nail.

A game I said I wouldn't play in, a game where nothing has changed in terms of your (anyone) opinion of me, a game where I did take on additional OOG stuff, a game with a record that makes it hard for town to keep on playing in, and a game where I adopted a posting style that reduced my post count to begin with.

Or did you even consider my outline posts, that would have been 5 times as many posts in previous games?

3. When Cookies claimed as Masons for herself and TexCat, you demanded a 3rd Mason claim. There is no Town reason for doing so. Claiming Mason as Scum would have been foolhardy. If TexCat weren't also Scum with Cookies, We'd know when TexCat told us and lynched Cookies. If they were both Scum, we'd have known as soon as a real Mason claimed. Your demand of a 3rd mason claim wasn't the move of a Twon player.

>>> Ed, I think it is obvious that you are I are Different. [To say the least.] I think it is even more obvious that our differences .... rub on each other, to the point that it bleeds.

Take from this what you want. I think we both know you aren't going to change your vote.

I know I am Town.

The point is not "This is not Town play".

You could be scum, so your view of what Town play is for this game would be shot, or at the very least biased.

You could be town, but even then, your strategy or tactics on playing this game would still be yours alone. It would be pro-town, but I doubt I could know what they were. The argument made here could be that different players, different play styles is THE reason why Mafia works. If Mafia was predictable, no one would play. [[Ironically, I think we are getting there in any event.]]

Ed play is not Meeko play.

Ed may not ask for a 3rd Mason.

Meeko might.

Shouldn't you ask if this is Meeko play first, instead of going straight to Meeko != Town?

4. When you voted for Tom after he claimed Scum, you stated that you doubted it was true. It seems odd, as we know there are no 3rd party players, why on Earth would a Town player claim Scum?

>>> So my vote for him means nothing?

I have a bad track record on the the term, but in terms of WIFOM, "Hi, I am scum" is not from the realm of teetotalism.

You mean to tell me you don't question what scum gives for free? What is your position in the game where you bypass that kneejerk reaction?

5. Your weak vote for TexCat on Day 2 (for questioning the blue=Town) coupled with a weak vote for Freudian on Day 2 (An OMGUS vote because she found your assumption that Kelly was Town very telling.) The Freduian vote is a minor point, and it would have been moot had Kelly flipped Scum, but he didn't. Your vote on Drain on Day 5 because she was able to defend herself. (and yes, I now I was voting for Drain, but I had actual reasons).

I'm not sure I see a reason here.

I think you are saying my voting sucks.

Yeah, I'm town. My voting is going to suck, especially on Day 2.

You seem to be hitting the "Meeko Votes Drain" a tad too hard. Doesn't do to well for my current assumption that the two of you are scum.

In total, 5 makes up a pattern of voting that appear like a Scum searching for reasons to vote rather than a Townie trying to make cases.

Or, you know, it could just be Meeko playing his best possible game at this point in the game.

Admitedly not much, but when you guys don't read me anyway, I'm not sure what value there is in giving reasons.

For all I know, I might be bending over backwards, and come across crystal clear to your exact ways of understanding, in the very posts you guys skim.

Not so sure you can say I suck at playing, if people admit to not looking at my complete picture, if people chose to judge me at half of my moves. [And I can bet that I am generous in saying you guys only skim me half the time.]

6. You've not made as many comments on the cases presented by others as I would expect from you. In previous games, it seemed like you often had a comment on the cases against people. In this game, you've made a few votes for weak reasoning and a lot of OMGUS voting. I think it might be because it's difficult to come up with cases as Scum, but the fear of lynching drives you to focus on those voting for you. And yes, I know this isn't a strong case, since you're an historic OMGUS voter, but I still seem to recall more commenting on the game as it goes by. I theorize that we're getting fewer comments from you because, perhaps, you have fewer questions since you know who is Scum and who is Town.

Not sure that you can throw 6 into the mix here when you already played 2.

You have issue with my post count, that should answer your number 6.

Funny that you used to ALWAYS call it town parnaoia, yet for this game, it becomes scum fear of lynching.

Not playing as scum, playing as Meeko.

I wonder how much of this is Ed playing as Ed, and how much of it is Ed playing as scum.

Then again, I don't think a Town Ed would bring any less heat on Meeko, as opposed to a Scum Ed.

Ed is just Ed, it would appear.

Perhaps Meeko is just Meeko. No tells in terms to alignment exist in the play.

[Meeko]

Watching Drain's recent play, and seeing Red 'defend' Meeko is leading me to agree with you, but think that maybe Red is the Scum.

Of course, another thing that troubles me is that when Tom 'imploded' the votes were on Tom, Drain, and Meeko and each of them was voting for one of the others. I really don't know what that means, but I keep noticig it when I look at the votes

Snipped.

I have no clue if Red is scum or not. I think he would get three votes on him like white on rice, if the three of us (Drain, Ed, Meeko) could put aside our heat for the time being.

Then again, it would appear that my vote on Drain might need to stay put.


And now, I am in a position that I end up in quite a few times over my track record of Mafia, in general.

The thought that Skeezix is snuggling me has passed my mind. But, it has been brought up by two players that I already suspect.

I feel in the past, I give in to these arguments way too much. It could be a false positive, I would jump on it, not knowing it to be a false positive, clinging only to the positive part.

Invariably, in doing so, I unvote scum and move on to town with my vote.

If someone always votes wrong, at what point can make moves directly opposite that to fix his game play?

Or is he doomed to always make a wrong vote, regardless?

My play in a word sucks. Am I doomed to a certain low level of play, or can I chose to move past it?

Related, this is why I felt not to vote Oredigger over Rysto.

My play in general needs to change, but what do I change?

[Meeko]

Seems like I am hogging the posts for the time being. Apparently you guys expect that of me.

In all seriousness, and screw what it means for your opinion of me in the immediate game:

What does it mean for Mafia, if a town player consistently has a good track record with his votes, voting scum --- If his means are a bit off?

Can the ends justify the means in Mafia voting?

If a town player goes waaaaay out there, and no one follows, but he ends up voting for scum, will the rest of town allow that player to live, or would they decide that player is too loose cannon?

I mean this in general. Not saying I am that great of a player, that I could go rogue. Meeko or Peeker, for that matter, could not pull this off. We are rent a cops, not Jack Bauer.

Now, assume for argument, at some game in the future, I am pulling it off, I am being perfectly cryptic, and bringing home the bacon.

Would I still be a distraction with the parts of me that don't check with the rest of town?

Would Town still vote to lynch a fellow town?

I might never be one of the better, or even top tier players. But I don't think I could be as clear in my thoughts as you guys would want me to be. (Come close, sure, but not 100% understanding)

I have mentioned before, more than once, that I have the madness, but not the method.

I wonder if I can get the method.

How far does that set me back in this, and in all games? Is it at the point that I should give Mafia up?

[Meeko]

Final comment for this batch, I promise :

Interesting that my post count has become an issue. Ed and I are neck and neck. But yet, it apparently is an issue against me, for some reason.

[special ed]

Snipped.

I have no clue if Red is scum or not. I think he would get three votes on him like white on rice, if the three of us (Drain, Ed, Meeko) could put aside our heat for the time being.



Wait, you think Drain and I are likely Scum and yet you want to work out a voting block to with us to vote for yet another person?

Really?


PS. I think we have different ways of answering cases. While you take the stance of, I'm innocent and I'll prove it by showing how I could be framed, I tend to look at it as finding different conclusions for the same set of facts.

Here's a brief summary of the strong points in the case against you. I should have made my case brief previously.

1. You voted for Rysto when it was very obvious that Iredigger had Scum reasons for claiming and Rysto didn't. It was pointed out repeatedly and you ignored it.

2. You demanded a 3rd mason to claim despite the discussion about how anti-Town and superfluous that was.

3. You've cast votes with weak reasoning (the object of the vote isn't important). Scum often feel forced to vote and come up with weak reasoning (see Oredigger earlier)

Add to this:

4. You've stated that you think Drain and Ed are Scum, yet you tried to create a voting block with them in the thread.

[Drain Bead]

To answer your somewhat out-of-game questions, Meeko, everyone has bad games. I'm one of those people who is driven mostly by gut and get it right relatively frequently, but it's somewhat useless because people rarely go along with my cases (because they're often weak, especially early in the game) and the Scum can use that as an impetus to start a bandwagon against me. Not sure which is worse, really. What I'd advise you to do is leave emotion at the door. Realize that people are going to suspect you, and those people's motivations may be pure and they may not be. Make cases based on reasoning and not on hunches. Ask yourself "What would I want a player on my team to do here?" and then do it. I say "on my team," of course, because you could be Town or you could be Scum here, and either way your goal is for your team to win. Specific roles, of course, have different strategies, but in general, a VT's goal is to ask questions, provoke response, and get nightkilled. ;)

[Mahaloth]

At this point, I think people should give their current thoughts on the remaining players. I mean, I know I have to evaluate things carefully; I've been focusing on Tom a lot the last few Days, and now he's dead, I am moving on to my next suspicions.

Right now, I suspect Meeko the most. Mainly, his weird choice to not vote Oredigger. I know it would be stupid to not vote Oredigger, especially if it draws attention to another scum, but I think Meeko might have done that to hope we would think that(yes, this heads toward WIFOM). Having said this, I think Meeko is good enough to do something like that.

Our player list looks like this and I'll give thoughts on what I'm thinking:

special ed - I think ed is playing quite well and I suspect he is town.
Red Skeezix - No read at all. I have no deep thoughts on Red.
Meeko - Top suspect for me right now.
Cookies - Very little read right now. Hard to say.
Rysto - Again, little to say. He does seem to be playing pro-town, though.
Drain Bead - Weak cases a bit, but not hugely pinging me right now.

Mahaloth - That's me! :)

Anyway, perhaps that's not so useful since I don't have thoughts on some. However, I definitely want to get my thoughts out there for everyone and I suggest others do the same.

[Meeko]

Not sure how to address Ed's rehashed arguments that I already addressed.

Ed, I'm town. If Red is scum, and we can vote him, why wouldn't we? Your vote would count the same against Red, even if you are his scum mate, right? Stranger things have happened in this game.

I'm one of those people who is driven mostly by gut and get it right relatively frequently, but it's somewhat useless because people rarely go along with my cases (because they're often weak, especially early in the game) and the Scum can use that as an impetus to start a bandwagon against me.

Snip

but in general, a VT's goal is to ask questions, provoke response, and get nightkilled. ;)


Again, I wish I had the words you had on things. To your first half, I am pretty much "" This. "" yet sub Meeko for Drain Bread. Obviously.

The latter is ... interesting space for you to play in. I mean, doesn't help your case.

[Drain Bead]

Cookies - Very little read right now. Hard to say.


I can see why you included Rysto in there, but why include someone with a confirmable role? Cookies is our only confirmed Town player, so why include her as if she's unconfirmed?

[Mahaloth]

I can see why you included Rysto in there, but why include someone with a confirmable role? Cookies is our only confirmed Town player, so why include her as if she's unconfirmed?

Ah, of course. My bad!

[special ed]

Not sure how to address Ed's rehashed arguments that I already addressed.

Ed, I'm town. If Red is scum, and we can vote him, why wouldn't we? Your vote would count the same against Red, even if you are his scum mate, right? Stranger things have happened in this game.




Again, I wish I had the words you had on things. To your first half, I am pretty much "" This. "" yet sub Meeko for Drain Bread. Obviously.

The latter is ... interesting space for you to play in. I mean, doesn't help your case.

The latter part is very true, and something I think you've never wrapped your head around.

Scum are going to kill a Town player each Night. It's better that they kill a Vanilla.

[Drain Bead]

The latter part is very true, and something I think you've never wrapped your head around.

Scum are going to kill a Town player each Night. It's better that they kill a Vanilla.

I think what Meeko is saying is specific to me in this game--I am a claimed Vanilla, and I'm not dead yet, so clearly I have not accomplished my goals.

[special ed]

At this point, I think people should give their current thoughts on the remaining players. I mean, I know I have to evaluate things carefully; I've been focusing on Tom a lot the last few Days, and now he's dead, I am moving on to my next suspicions.

Right now, I suspect Meeko the most. Mainly, his weird choice to not vote Oredigger. I know it would be stupid to not vote Oredigger, especially if it draws attention to another scum, but I think Meeko might have done that to hope we would think that(yes, this heads toward WIFOM). Having said this, I think Meeko is good enough to do something like that.

Our player list looks like this and I'll give thoughts on what I'm thinking:

special ed - I think ed is playing quite well and I suspect he is town.
Red Skeezix - No read at all. I have no deep thoughts on Red.
Meeko - Top suspect for me right now.
Cookies - Very little read right now. Hard to say.
Rysto - Again, little to say. He does seem to be playing pro-town, though.
Drain Bead - Weak cases a bit, but not hugely pinging me right now.

Mahaloth - That's me! :)

Anyway, perhaps that's not so useful since I don't have thoughts on some. However, I definitely want to get my thoughts out there for everyone and I suggest others do the same.

Does this post scream Scum! to anyone else?

First off, a trust list where just about everyone is trusted or neutral except for the leading lynch candidate.

Second, it seems to ignore almost everything that's gone on in the game. It's almost just a post to have a post. The only actual point made is that Drain has had some weak cases.

Third, It completely ignores that claims made and such.

In fact, there's no substance whatsoever to this post. I see strong Scum motivation. It snuggles everyone except for Meeko.

I'd like to adjust my thoughts. Meeko and Mahaloth are Scum. Maybe someone else.

[special ed]

I think what Meeko is saying is specific to me in this game--I am a claimed Vanilla, and I'm not dead yet, so clearly I have not accomplished my goals.

:smack:

oh, of course

[special ed]

And, for the record, here is what I think about the remaining players

special ed - He's Town
Red Skeezix - This is a tough one. I didn't like the defense of Meeko, but I don't recall much more. This will require some research.
Meeko - Scum, see previous case
Cookies - Mason.
Rysto - Doctor
Drain Bead - I was probably wrong in the case I built previously. She's playing a Town game at this point.
Mahaloth - Scum, see recent post

[Red Skeezix]

Since we're doing lists, here's my list:

Meeko - Pretty Scummy, wanting to vote in a block with people he believes are scum

Mahaloth - I was reading him as town up until that post. He was pretty much single tracking Tom Scud as we saw. Could have been both trying to gain credit after the other one's demise. Oredigger and Alka played this game during cecil pond. I need to read and think about his play this game more.

Special Ed: I always have trouble deciding with him. He's aggressive, and seems jump a lot both as town and as scum. He's pushed hard on meeko several times this game, but I don't think he'd risk a meltdown like C3. So IMO, they're not both scum and Meeko looks scummier.

Drain: Pretty Scummy. Here's why: Every time I read drain's posts from after the Tom lynch, I keep getting a hard sell vibe on the meeko lynch. The one post where drain compares cookies claiming with meeko's claiming from cecil pond, really strikes me as trying to generate some sort of false/forced perception of events. On top of all this there's seems to be a lot of places where Drain's actions are ambiguous enough to go either way.

I've run into the problem that I think everyone in the not at all confirmed pool, with the exception of myself, has at least the tinge of scum, so I'm going to vote on who I think has been most scummy. That's meeko, his rysto vote really does not make sense from any standpoint that could reasonably be called town.

vote Meeko

[ShadowFacts]

VooooOOOOOoooooOOOOOOOOOoote CoooooooOOOOOooount:*

Meeko (3) - Voted by: special ed 1322, Drain Bead 1326, Red Skeezix 1352

Drain Bead (1) - Voted by: Meeko 1327



*I'm a ghost, remember? Get it? HA!

[special ed]

Mahaloth - I was reading him as town up until that post. He was pretty much single tracking Tom Scud as we saw. Could have been both trying to gain credit after the other one's demise. Oredigger and Alka played this game during cecil pond. I need to read and think about his play this game more.

I think Drain and Freudian did this in Colorless as well.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'm in the weeds on Meeko. My gut tells me the case against him is wrong, but if it were any other player I'd probably be voting for him right now.

Mahaloth and his oversight as to my confirmedness would be very sloppy scum play. It also look like it could be the play of a Townie who's just not invested or paying close attention, which would suck, but not as bad as mislynching him.

I'm going to have to look over Ed, Drain, and Red in greater detail.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

On the third hand, playing the distracted and apathetic Townie would be a viable scum play.

So Vote Mahaloth while I go re-read Ed, Drain, and Red.

[Meeko]

I'm Vanilla.*

Did that clear anything up? No?

Darn, thought that would work.

The latter part is very true, and something I think you've never wrapped your head around.

Scum are going to kill a Town player each Night. It's better that they kill a Vanilla.

I think what Meeko is saying is specific to me in this game--I am a claimed Vanilla, and I'm not dead yet, so clearly I have not accomplished my goals.

I can understand "It is vanillia's job to die".

I can barely understand it from a VT.

I can understand it a LOT better from a scum, who would take the guise of a VT.

Again, there are MANY things our group does that is self defeating.

No town player should be THAT excited that "Yay! we lost another VT!"

I mean, it just seems like scum carving out a "Safe" VT attitude.

Better yet, if you always say it, in previous games, when you have been VT, better for you to claim it again in next games when you are Scum.


Drain, I'm not the best at picking stuff up, the further they get away from being blunt.

However :

I am a claimed Vanilla, and I'm not dead yet, so clearly I have not accomplished my goals.

I think, I just think I can eke out sarcasm here. Your sugar coating on this, your, embellishment of sarcasm doesn't help.

Do you need the added "cute" to be the spoonful of sugar for the scum medicine?

If I can draw the sarcastic angle to it's conclusion :

Yes. I don't think you have accomplished your goals.

But don't worry, looks like my wagon is here at last.

I will see you at the end of the game, would appear I have a first class, non-stop ticket to it.

* If my claim didn't clear anything up, perhaps Drain's claim should be met with the same disdain.

Not going to fight this one, beyond telling you that I speak the truth. If I die, it might as well be my funeral, but it would be the (rest) of town's loss more than my own.

[Meeko]

Since we're doing lists, here's my list:

Meeko - Pretty Scummy, wanting to vote in a block with people he believes are scum


I've run into the problem that I think everyone in the not at all confirmed pool, with the exception of myself, has at least the tinge of scum, so I'm going to vote on who I think has been most scummy. That's meeko, his rysto vote really does not make sense from any standpoint that could reasonably be called town.



Red: Explain "block" when you mean "vote in a block". I don't see an alternative here.

Town has numbers, town's most common, arguably most reliable kill [with obvious exceptions] is the vote.

What is the better play for town?

Oh, but you said block voting with "Scum".

That changes...... nothing.

Town gets things wrong. Town doesn't know who is, and who is not Scum. If Town can't form wagons I don't see how they can win.

If you would like to to call a wagon "block voting", so be it. Rinse lather repeat my entire argument. Re-run from start, GOTO 10.


If your vote on me boils down the fact that I took the road less traveled by then I deserve to die. And apparently, Town EVER getting out of it's reccently slump deserves to die as well.

Opportunistic move from Red here. By any other name,.

[Drain Bead]

Hrm. Not sure what to think of ed at this point. Is it Scum snuggling me, or are we having a Town moment where the OMGUS haze has lifted? If it's truly OMGUS, then we have the last Scum, in Meeko, Skeezix, and Mahaloth, all of whom have done things that were more Scummy than ed has been recently.

And Meeko, you're missing a fine distinction here. It's not Vanilla's job to die. It's Vanilla's job to be [i]nightkilled[/b] by Scum. Look at it this way--the Scum are going to kill someone every Night, barring intervention. And we want that someone to be a VT, rather than a power role. Naturally, due to sheer numbers and attrition due to roleclaims, endgame is pretty much always gonna be a bunch of unconfirmed VT and Scum. We're actually doing well in that we still have a Mason and (ostensibly, not confirmed by a blocked kill but also not counterclaimed) Doc left over.

If we do well toDay and nab Scum, toNight's WIFOM game will make or break us, I think. If we can get through toNight without a kill, we wake up with two confirmed Town and three unconfirmed to choose from. Town should then vote with our confirmeds in a bloc.

[Drain Bead]

I hate not being able to edit in this game, so my retarded coding errors are there for the world to see.

[Mahaloth]

On the third hand, playing the distracted and apathetic Townie would be a viable scum play.
.

I'm not apathetic, but I did make a mistake in my analysis. Let's not lose the game because of a stupid mistake on a townie's part.

I mean, in terms of my pro-town playing, I was voting for Tom for the last three Days and was one of the first to push for it. I know that could be a scum bussing another scum, but think about it. I didn't jump on and bus Tom at the last minute or add my vote to a pile of votes on several days. I suspected(correctly, by the way) that Tom was scum and made my case for it and voted it.

Anyway, I did make a mistake, but I'm far from apathetic.

[special ed]

No offense meant to anyone, but this is a pet peeve of mine


http://www.r-word.org/

[Mahaloth]

No offense meant to anyone, but this is a pet peeve of mine

http://www.r-word.org/

It's about using the word "retard" or "retarded", guys. I teach as well and agree that it is a highly overused word, especially considering there are actual mentally retarded people deserve to not have the word thrown around to describe dumb things or ideas.

We, in my school, also disallow the word "gay" to describe something lame or uncool.

[Drain Bead]

It's about using the word "retard" or "retarded", guys. I teach as well and agree that it is a highly overused word, especially considering there are actual mentally retarded people deserve to not have the word thrown around to describe dumb things or ideas.

We, in my school, also disallow the word "gay" to describe something lame or uncool.

Funny, almost every gay friend I have uses the word "gay" to describe something lame or uncool. Maybe I just have weird friends.

[Rysto]

Nope.

See my above. Town needs to play as a team. Only then do we stand a chance against scum.

It's one thing to self protect every single night. But do you have to tell the entire game?

There is a LOT of bad thinking in Mafia, everything from selfish power roles to scum busing scum for town cred.

Frankly, Mafia requires a certain level of intelligence. I assumed that everyone who played had it. I wonder now if anyone has it.

Vote Rysto.

I don't really like either claim. However, I think the entire exchange is WIFOM / Scum would never do that.

Rysto comes on with the "I am going to self protect for the rest of the game" and I think that it's a dare at least, hubris at best.

It boils down to something I can't put my finger on. It's close to the same "gut feeling" as others have said for Digger. Yet, in a few games that I have played in, I have made a move that wasn't predictable. I make that move, and later retract it.

Those types of moves that I am talking about, usually net scum, before I take them back. Let's hope this is one of those moves, sans the taking it back part*.

* Not against taking it back, but I'm not sure what it would take to get me to move off of it.

So in the space of less than an hour, Meeko declares that scum voting for scum is bad strategy, and then votes for me over Oredigger. :dubious:

Vote Meeko

Unfortunately it seems that everybody still living(only Z wasn't was on Oredigger when Meeko made that first post). However, the way that Meeko phrased that makes me wonder if the scum had planned the bus in advance. In that case, the most interesting Oredigger voters are those who voted before me:

GuiriEnEspaña 1032, TexCat 1035, special ed 1037, Drain Bead 1039, Tom Scud 1047, MHaye 1116

This is where the lack of reveal on MHaye and Zeriel's deaths really hurt us. Still, it comes back again to Drain and ed.

[Mahaloth]

Funny, almost every gay friend I have uses the word "gay" to describe something lame or uncool. Maybe I just have weird friends.

Actually, this is my experience as well, but I know some people are quite offended by it, and they have a point, so there we have it. :)

[Meeko]

If we do well toDay and nab Scum, toNight's WIFOM game will make or break us, I think.



Well. Funny thing about nabbing scum today. As long as I have the vote lead this is not going to happen.

[Meeko]

What are our Opinions on Skeezix?

[Mahaloth]

What are our Opinions on Skeezix?

I've given mine. I have zero read on him at all.

Let's see. Oh, I see no reason not to put a vote out to go with my previous statements.


Vote Meeko

[Red Skeezix]

What are our Opinions on Skeezix?

He's a pretty swell guy, what with his rugged good looks and rapier like wit.

[Meeko]

You know, there would be a great sense of humor to all of this, if we were at Ly/Lo.

Make no mistake Town, you deserve my death*.

* Once I'm confirmed, hopefully you will understand what I meant here. I highly doubt it, but if you guys can admit to the problem, well, there are only 11 more steps, right?

Related, it has been said that insanity is doing the same things over and over again, expecting different results.

I wonder how much of that, as far as it pertains to Mafia games I am in, that I don't own.

I wonder who gets the remainder.

Blah blah blah, but I am town, blah blah blah. [It makes no difference what I type, I doubt anyone reads it, or this, anyway.]

[Meeko]

So in the space of less than an hour, Meeko declares that scum voting for scum is bad strategy, and then votes for me over Oredigger.

You assume that Town can't make the "scum voting for scum is bad" argument.

That, or you just re-confirmed that I have ADHD.

[Drain Bead]

How do you know we're not at LyLo, Meeko?

Also, you'd be a lot more convincing in the whole "Town can make the Scum voting for Scum argument" if you'd actually voted for Scum there, especially given the fact that there was really no reason for Rysto to counterclaim if he were Scum (unless the Scum happened to somehow know there was no Town Doctor, which is possible but not plausible).

[Meeko]

How do you know we're not at LyLo, Meeko?

Also, you'd be a lot more convincing in the whole "Town can make the Scum voting for Scum argument" if you'd actually voted for Scum there, especially given the fact that there was really no reason for Rysto to counterclaim if he were Scum (unless the Scum happened to somehow know there was no Town Doctor, which is possible but not plausible).

Uhm, I don't know if we are, or not. I believe the word "were" would suffice either way.

I don't know how Town can be sure they are voting for scum, before the reveal.


At worst, call it me falling for a WIFOM.

At best, understand that I realize that Town in all future games, are going to have to change their game up.

Apparently, I'm the only one bothered by the Scum domination of these later games, enough to actually do something about it.

Be the change you want to see in Mafia.

Or something like that.

[Meeko]

I've given mine. I have zero read on him at all.

Let's see. Oh, I see no reason not to put a vote out to go with my previous statements.



FWIW I take issue with this vote.

Scum could make neutral observations about everybody. They could then board a wagon on town with a simple Me Too!.

I mean, If you go around saying things about everybody, it would be all to easy to simply nod to the argument later and place a vote.

It would be a good strategy for Scum to start arguments on everyone. Then, once someone else forwards the argument into a wagon, that scum player could come back and board the wagon with less attention on them. They would sneak aboard the wagon, increase a vote on the innocent, and fear no retribution.

[Drain Bead]

Uhm, I don't know if we are, or not. I believe the word "were" would suffice either way.


I think the normal construction to get that point across would be "if we ARE at LyLo." If we were implies something that is not, as in "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

[Meeko]

I think the normal construction to get that point across would be "if we ARE at LyLo." If we were implies something that is not, as in "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

You know, there would be a great sense of humor to all of this, if we were at Ly/Lo.

Bolding is mine. I also snipped myself, but I don't think I mind.

[special ed]

I don't know how Town can be sure they are voting for scum, before the reveal.

We can't. I'm not sure where you see anyone saying that they're sure of anything.

[Drain Bead]

We can't. I'm not sure where you see anyone saying that they're sure of anything.

We can't be sure, but we can be more sure than not, and in the context of the Oredigger vs. Rysto claim and counterclaim, it would make no sense for Rysto to have been the Scum in that situation. If Digger had been Town, at that point the Scum know that he's the Doctor, and they can plan accordingly. There's no sense in risking a one-for-one trade at that point with a player who, IIRC, wasn't getting any heat at that point. Scum's main daytime goal is to expose Town power roles, not necessarily to get them lynched.

[special ed]

Apparently, I'm the only one bothered by the Scum domination of these later games, enough to actually do something about it.

What are you calling Scum domination?

Of the games I've played in recently, it seems Town has won more often than not. Maybe that's not the case for you.

This seems like a diversion. You're asking us to focus on something that isn't in the game. I think you want the people who are voting for you to conclude as follows:

1. Scum has been winning lately.
2. Town must be doing something wrong.
3. I think Meeko is acting Scummy.
4. Therefore, since Town has done badly, I must be wrong and Meeko must be Town.

I'm just not going to buy into that theory. I do realize Town has lost some the last 2 games on SDMB. I can attribute this to:
1. Good Scum play. (Cecil Pond)
2. Mistakes made by Town. (Cecil Pond and Colorless)

However, that doesn't mean I'm going to throw out all logic and analysis because it hasn't worked in. I think there are lessons to be learned (e.g., Vigilante behavior in Colorless), but, overall, I'm going to stick with my best ideas in terms of hunting Scum.


That said, if you have some idea of how to hunt Scum differently and more effectively, I'm willing to listen. But please don't jsut tell me I'm wrong, because that's not helpful.

[Drain Bead]

Could I have said "at that point" any more in that post?

[special ed]

We can't be sure, but we can be more sure than not, and in the context of the Oredigger vs. Rysto claim and counterclaim, it would make no sense for Rysto to have been the Scum in that situation. If Digger had been Town, at that point the Scum know that he's the Doctor, and they can plan accordingly. There's no sense in risking a one-for-one trade at that point with a player who, IIRC, wasn't getting any heat at that point. Scum's main daytime goal is to expose Town power roles, not necessarily to get them lynched.

oh, is that what Meeko was referring to? I thought he was refering to his pending lynch.

I agree that the lynch of Oredigger made more sense from a logical standpoint. And it proved to be the correct move.

[special ed]

Now:

Cookies
Rysto
special ed
Red Skeezix
Meeko
Mahaloth
Drain Bead


Lynch meeko (and if the game doesn't end) toNight

Cookies
Rysto
special ed
Red Skeezix
Mahaloth
Drain Bead

Cookies is NK'd, so toMorrow

Rysto
special ed
Red Skeezix
Mahaloth
Drain Bead

We lynch one of the unconfirmed, and if the game doesn't end, we go into the Night with

Rysto
3 unconfirmed

Scum kill an unconfirmed (because they can't kill Rysto) and we go into Day 3 handed with a confirmed Town. (Basically Rysto's vote decides the game)

Or Scum don't kill and we go into Day still at Lych or lose, but 4 handed.

I won't get into the lynch or no lynch debate at 4 handed, because I just wanted to illustrate how I see the game progressing.

It's not a hopeless as it might seem. If we're right about Meeko, it looks good for us. If we're wrong and at least one of Zeriel/MHaye were Scum then it still looks pretty good.

[Mahaloth]

FWIW I take issue with this vote.

Scum could make neutral observations about everybody. They could then board a wagon on town with a simple Me Too!.

I mean, If you go around saying things about everybody, it would be all to easy to simply nod to the argument later and place a vote.

It would be a good strategy for Scum to start arguments on everyone. Then, once someone else forwards the argument into a wagon, that scum player could come back and board the wagon with less attention on them. They would sneak aboard the wagon, increase a vote on the innocent, and fear no retribution.

1. Uh, yeah, well are you forgetting that I was far from a band wagoner on the vote for Tom? I was one of the first to vote for him and I kept my vote on him for three Days until he was lynched and proven to be scum(well, he confessed before that, but I had my vote on him for Days).

2. Of course it is good strategy for a scum to spread arguments around on everyone and quietly jump on bandwagons. However, I clearly did not "say things" about "everybody". I flat out said that I have no idea what is going on with Red, for example.

[ShadowFacts]

Day ends at 2pm Eastern today, or in about 2 hours and 50 minutes.

[Meeko]

I think you want the people who are voting for you to conclude as follows:

1. Scum has been winning lately.
2. Town must be doing something wrong.
3. I think Meeko is acting Scummy.

However, that doesn't mean I'm going to throw out all logic and analysis because it hasn't worked in. I think there are lessons to be learned (e.g., Vigilante behavior in Colorless), but, overall, I'm going to stick with my best ideas in terms of hunting Scum.

That said, if you have some idea of how to hunt Scum differently and more effectively, I'm willing to listen. But please don't jsut tell me I'm wrong, because that's not helpful.


Interesting, you pass the buck to me before you even consider the fact that ANYONE else is acting more scummy.

Don't throw out logic. USE IT.

Best ideas in hunting scum? I doubt you would use them if you are scum in this game.

I think at a certain point, however, we need to re-evaluate how e do things, we both agree that the later games could have gone better for Town, if better things happened.

I'm trying to do better things. I'm not passing the buck.

1. Drain
2. Skeezix
3. Mahaloth
4. Ed [Darn you for being the same player in every single game, darn you for being on me every single second of every single game.]

[Meeko]

Looks like I'll be taking my final drink about now.

Surprise me, but keep it stiff. Seems I will be that way soon enough.

[Meeko]

...

[Meeko]

!!!

[ShadowFacts]

Sorry, everyone, pulled into an off-site meeting. Back with results shortly.

[Meeko]

Thanks for the update, I was fearing I would have to break out the emoticons next.

[ShadowFacts]

End of day vote count:

Meeko (5) - Voted by: special ed 1322, Drain Bead 1326, Red Skeezix 1352, Rysto 1365, Mahaloth 1369

Drain Bead (1) - Voted by: Meeko 1327

Mahaloth (1) - Voted by: Cookies 1356



Apparently surrealism is not popular. Meeko (Artist) is dead.

[Drain Bead]

Was starting to get worried that the vote was a little too unanimous and that our one confirmed Town was voting for someone else.

Good luck tonight, Rysto. We'll need it.

[special ed]

^%&*%#^&%%

we didn't lose yet though?

[ShadowFacts]

To all those to whom this is relevant: Please PM me with your night actions when you are ready with them.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Vaya con dios, Meeko.

[Meeko]

^%&*%#^&%%

we didn't lose yet though?

Was there anything more I could have done?

[special ed]

Was there anything more I could have done?

not the time and place to discuss this.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'm glad my Meeko perceptions are still calibrated. Maybe the next time they kick in I can actually talk some other people out of suspecting him.

[Drain Bead]

My husband had surgery yesterday, so I may be a bit busy this weekend, what with taking care of him, the house, and a toddler. Will try to keep checking in, but may be AWOL until Monday when I can check from work.

[ShadowFacts]

Day dawns a little early to an unfortunate sight for the town:

Rysto (Physician) is dead.



The drama continues...

[Rysto]

Ugh. Sorry guys; I was terrible in this game. Good luck.

[special ed]

Day dawns a little early to an unfortunate sight for the town:

Rysto (Physician) is dead.



The drama continues...

NOOOOO!!!!

you were supposed to protect yourself so that you could make it to 3 handed!
Oh well, honestly, it's a gamble I might have taken myself, I suppose.

[special ed]

My husband had surgery yesterday, so I may be a bit busy this weekend, what with taking care of him, the house, and a toddler. Will try to keep checking in, but may be AWOL until Monday when I can check from work.

I hope he's OK and will recover quickly.

[special ed]

Day One

peekercpa (4): Zeriel 151 190, TexCat 314 356, Chronos 360, Meeko 383, Freudian Slit 478, Mahaloth 482
KellyCriterion (3): NAF1138 313, Jimmy Chitwood 484, Tom Scud 571
Chronos (3): storyteller0910 416 564, peekercpa 450, storyteller0910 590, MHaye 591
Drain Bead (2): Zeriel 560, special ed 565
TexCat (1): Red Skeezix 316, Tom Scud 328 571, peekercpa 346 450
Oredigger77 (1): Drain Bead 347
Red Skeezix (1): TexCat 356, Freudian Slit 364 478
Zeriel (1): storyteller0910 564 567, One And Only Wanderers 570
Rysto (1): GuiriEnEspaña 576
Freudian Slit (1): Rysto 577
NAF1138 (0): One And Only Wanderers 179 288, KellyCriterion 242 244
storyteller0910 (0): peekercpa 116 201
One And Only Wanderers (0): Chronos 180 360, Jimmy Chitwood 184, Meeko 220 291
Mahaloth (0): Meeko 291 298
Not Voting (2) : KellyCriterion, Oredigger77

Day Two

One And Only Wanderers (8): Jimmy Chitwood 757, Oredigger77 760, Freudian Slit 763, Mahaloth 815, GuiriEnEspaña 855, Drain Bead 865, Zeriel 874, Chronos 882
Freudian Slit (8): Rysto 655, Meeko 666, Tom Scud 783, Red Skeezix 835, special ed 861, OAOW 871, TexCat 880, MHaye 885
Mahaloth (1): storyteller0910 833
Jimmy Chitwood (0): Oredigger 717 734, One And Only Wanderers 751 871, TexCat 795 880
Drain Bead (0): Zeriel 715 874
GuiriEnEspaña (0): Chronos 803 882
TexCat (0): Tom Scud 706 783
Tom Scud (0): Mahaloth 787 815
Meeko (0): Freudian Slit 651 763

Day Three

Chronos (7): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, GuiriEnEspaña 1000, Tom Scud 1002, Rysto 1005, Jimmy Chitwood 1013
Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004 1013
Oredigger77 (2): special ed 995, MHaye 1015
Jimmy Chitwood (1): TexCat 941
TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002, Meeko 982

Day Four

Oredigger77 (10): GuiriEnEspaña 1032, TexCat 1035, special ed 1037, Drain Bead 1039, Tom Scud 1047, MHaye 1116, Rysto 1127, Mahaloth 1135, Red Skeezix 1136, Zeriel 1164
Rysto (2): Oredigger77 1137, Meeko 1153
Tom Scud (1): Mahaloth 1031 1133, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 1111
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (0): Rysto 1028 1051
TexCat (0): Meeko 1029 1110

Day Five(before Tom's claim)

Drain (2): Special Ed 1225, Meeko 1256
Tom (3): Drain 1227, Mahaloth 1232, Red 1268
Red (1): Guiri 1246
Meeko (1): Tom 1264

Day 5 (after Tom's claim)

Tom Scud (8): Drain Bead 1227 1281 1287, Mahaloth 1232, Red Skeezix 1268, Meeko 1289, special ed 1292, Rysto 1293, Cookies 1294, GuiriEnEspaña 1299
Meeko (1): Tom Scud (1264)
Drain Bead (0): special ed 1225 1292, Meeko 1256 1289
Red Skeezix (0): GuiriEnEspaña 1246 1299

Day 6

Meeko (5) - special ed 1322, Drain Bead 1326, Red Skeezix 1352, Rysto 1365, Mahaloth 1369
Drain Bead (1) - Meeko 1327
Mahaloth (1) - Cookies 1356


Player List:

Alive:

special ed
Red Skeezix
Mahaloth
Cookies
Drain Bead



Dead:
Oredigger
Freudian Slit
storyteller
MHaye
NAF1138
Jimmy Chitwood
One and Only Wanderers
Chronos
Zeriel
peekercpa
TexCat
Tom Scud
GuiriEnEspana
Meeko
Rysto




Best case scenario it's 4-1
Worst case it's 3-2.

It's likely to be lynch or lose.

I'm going to go do some more in depth thinking, but I'm going to keep in mind my suspicion that Zeriel was Scum. If we're extremely likely, then MHaye was Scum too, but he didn't ping me as much as Zeriel did.

Before doing my research, I can tell you, Drain has fallen down on my list if suspects while Red and Mahaloth have risen.

I'm going to go back and look at everything from the claims to the reasons people had for voting. I suggest the rest of us do the same. We're close to victory here.

I can't believe we were wrong yesterDay. Obviously all of us who aren't confirmed voted for Meeko, but why the hell would he have voted for Rysto over Oredigger?

[Mahaloth]

Wow. I hope Rysto wasn't waiting 'til 1:00 or later(before 2) to self-protect. I didn't even know Day was starting earlier. Were we told? Doesn't matter now, I guess.

:sigh:

So, we're left with:

special ed - ????
Red Skeezix - ????
Mahaloth - I'm town, but for you all, it is "????"
Drain Bead - ????

Cookies - mason

I think this is right. OK, so I have little read on Red, I been reading ed as Town, and aside from some weak cases. I have little on Drain.

I hate to say it, but don't know who to kill toDay. I agree we are most likely at Ly/Lo.

:sigh:

[special ed]

Wow. I hope Rysto wasn't waiting 'til 1:00 or later(before 2) to self-protect. I didn't even know Day was starting earlier. Were we told?

I have a feeling you were told in the Scum thread.



I think this is right. OK, so I have little read on Red, I been reading ed as Town, and aside from some weak cases. I have little on Drain.

I hate to say it, but don't know who to kill toDay. I agree we are most likely at Ly/Lo.



how about you? I think you'd make a good target.

Of course, you're not sure who'd make a good target because you aren't sure how it's going to play out, especially since I'm not going after Drain as strongly anymore.

I have an idea for toDay. How about if the 4 of us each make the case against ourselves first, then we go and check on it and make the case against others?

Or is that going to make you sigh again?

[Drain Bead]

Case against ourselves? You mean, I make the case against me, you make the case against you, and so on?

Intriguing. I'm not sure what is to be gained by me going back and reading the thread assuming myself to be Scum. Can you explain that for me?

[Mahaloth]

I have a feeling you were told in the Scum thread.


snipped

1. I'm not in the scum thread since I'm not scum.

2. Are you seriously suggesting that Sach or Shadow are telling the scum the day starts early and not us, or at least Rysto(who had a Night power)? Dude, that's stupid.


how about you? I think you'd make a good target.

Of course, you're not sure who'd make a good target because you aren't sure how it's going to play out, especially since I'm not going after Drain as strongly anymore.

I have an idea for toDay. How about if the 4 of us each make the case against ourselves first, then we go and check on it and make the case against others?

Or is that going to make you sigh again?

snipped, but is rest of original quote

1. I don't blame you for suspecting me. I know I'm not confirmed, but were you expecting me to suggest myself for the lynch?

2. Why would you ask me if it would make me "sigh" again? I love the idea of making cases against ourselves. Discuss what might look odd about ourselves and see what people have to say.

I'll even go first

- I think the only real goof I made was when I forgot it was Cookies that we had left who had a solid mason claim. I just made a mistake and after it was pointed out, I realized what I had done. I think Drain and Ed called me out on it.

- My participation has not been super high over, especially for a few middle Days. My vote on Tom during the middle of the game was something I stuck to and while I was always looking for a better case, I didn't see one(except when I suspected Oneandonly for his claiming he's a good lynch). I had an early and, I think, solid vote that was later proven correct.

Well, I see the second point there ends up being defensive as well, but it is hard to critique yourself without explaining/defending.

Who's next?

[Mahaloth]

Case against ourselves? You mean, I make the case against me, you make the case against you, and so on?

Intriguing. I'm not sure what is to be gained by me going back and reading the thread assuming myself to be Scum. Can you explain that for me?

That's a simulpost to mine, by the way.

Drain, I think the idea is just to view our faults and see what others think of them. I guess the scum might try to hide little things they did to move votes certain ways and how they guided suspicion and so forth. I rather like the idea, actually.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Vote Red

Just to get my gut on paper as of right now, definitely subject to change.

[Mahaloth]

My husband had surgery yesterday, so I may be a bit busy this weekend, what with taking care of him, the house, and a toddler. Will try to keep checking in, but may be AWOL until Monday when I can check from work.

I hope he is doing well.

[Red Skeezix]

@Drain, I hope your husband is doing well after his surgery.

Vote Red

Just to get my gut on paper as of right now, definitely subject to change.

I hope you're planning on making a case, and giving me a chance to defend myself. It's kind of hard to address a vote with no backing explanation, unless your alleged haruspicy is your reasoning, in which case I say it's insufficient.

As to the make the case against yourself idea, I'm not seeing it for a bunch of reasons.

1. Any case that a person makes against themselves will be by definition largely uncompelling since the overriding voice will be "I'm not scum".

2. Making a case against a player who I know is town, is IMO a waste of time. I would as soon make a case against Cookies for all I think it would bring.

3. This sort of behavior is begging for false-positives in the slip dept. As players re-interpret their own actions, as their memories falsely fill in gaps that seem unimportant at the time. That will lead to alleged slips and mislynches that it seems we cannot afford.

4. This feels like a ploy of desperation to me. I think a scum player who pushed hard yesterday, might not want to stick their neck out making a bunch of cases on players. Let them make the cases against themselves, keep them occupied. Maybe somebody slips.

Overall, it seems like a bunch of nonsense, a ploy, or just an all around bad idea. I noticed Mahaloth is supporting it. And he is my primary candidate moving into today. That leaves an even worse taste in my mouth.

[special ed]

Case against ourselves? You mean, I make the case against me, you make the case against you, and so on?

Intriguing. I'm not sure what is to be gained by me going back and reading the thread assuming myself to be Scum. Can you explain that for me?

It was just idea. I'm not sure it's a good one.

[special ed]

snipped

1. I'm not in the scum thread since I'm not scum.

2. Are you seriously suggesting that Sach or Shadow are telling the scum the day starts early and not us, or at least Rysto(who had a Night power)? Dude, that's stupid

No, I'm suggesting that sach or shadow got permission from rysto and the Scum to start the Day early, therefore, they would know. It wouldn't be fair to do so without their consent.

[special ed]

I'll even go first

- I think the only real goof I made was when I forgot it was Cookies that we had left who had a solid mason claim. I just made a mistake and after it was pointed out, I realized what I had done. I think Drain and Ed called me out on it.

- My participation has not been super high over, especially for a few middle Days. My vote on Tom during the middle of the game was something I stuck to and while I was always looking for a better case, I didn't see one(except when I suspected Oneandonly for his claiming he's a good lynch). I had an early and, I think, solid vote that was later proven correct.

Well, I see the second point there ends up being defensive as well, but it is hard to critique yourself without explaining/defending.

Who's next?

I meant a more in depth case. Searching through previous posts/interactions. Not just a cursory defense about things that you remember in the moment.

[Mahaloth]

No, I'm suggesting that sach or shadow got permission from rysto and the Scum to start the Day early, therefore, they would know. It wouldn't be fair to do so without their consent.

Oh. To be fair, the way you worded your original comment wasn't clear. Still, I should hope all parties involved were informed, especially Rysto.

Anyway, nothing to be done about that now and little to be gained by discussing the early start. Let's move on.

[special ed]

As to the make the case against yourself idea, I'm not seeing it for a bunch of reasons.

1. Any case that a person makes against themselves will be by definition largely uncompelling since the overriding voice will be "I'm not scum".

2. Making a case against a player who I know is town, is IMO a waste of time. I would as soon make a case against Cookies for all I think it would bring.

3. This sort of behavior is begging for false-positives in the slip dept. As players re-interpret their own actions, as their memories falsely fill in gaps that seem unimportant at the time. That will lead to alleged slips and mislynches that it seems we cannot afford.

4. This feels like a ploy of desperation to me. I think a scum player who pushed hard yesterday, might not want to stick their neck out making a bunch of cases on players. Let them make the cases against themselves, keep them occupied. Maybe somebody slips.

Overall, it seems like a bunch of nonsense, a ploy, or just an all around bad idea. I noticed Mahaloth is supporting it. And he is my primary candidate moving into today. That leaves an even worse taste in my mouth.

Interesting that you're the only one coming up against the idea.

Now that everyone has chimed in, I'm thinking it is a good idea that we all go more in depth. and here's the reasons:

1. There might be slips, like Red fears.
2. It will force you into defending an action you've taken and stating your reasoning before seeing how other people look at it.

The reason I don't like it....I post a lot more than most, I think and I'll have a larger task.

[Red Skeezix]

Interesting that you're the only one coming up against the idea.


Interesting that (so far, Drain and Cookies have not weighed in yet, I believe) I'm the only one left who is still looking critically at what other players are posting, and not being blindly led around by someone who's alignment I am not sure of?

Sorry, Ed. Just because you think it's a good idea and are pushing for it, does not mean I or anyone else has to or for that matter even should follow your lead. I'd be more willing if you'd be more willing to address my points. Basically you've given me zero reason to just blindly trust you. I've been almost burned by a scummy Ed before, and I'd prefer not repeat that, thankyouverymuch.

[special ed]

I've been almost burned by a scummy Ed before, and I'd prefer not repeat that, thankyouverymuch.

When?

[special ed]

1. Any case that a person makes against themselves will be by definition largely uncompelling since the overriding voice will be "I'm not scum".


Says you. I have, in fact, countered this by saying that it will force a person to defend their position before being attacked. So they won't know the thinking f the accuser before defending it.

Is it a guilty until proven innocent approach? Yes. Is that appropriate for this stage of the game? perhaps

2. Making a case against a player who I know is town, is IMO a waste of time. I would as soon make a case against Cookies for all I think it would bring.

sez you. Why is it a waste of time? You're making a case against someone the other 4 people don't know is Town.

3. This sort of behavior is begging for false-positives in the slip dept. As players re-interpret their own actions, as their memories falsely fill in gaps that seem unimportant at the time. That will lead to alleged slips and mislynches that it seems we cannot afford.

As I tried to point out earlier. I think it will cause true positives as well as omissions which could be useful.

4. This feels like a ploy of desperation to me. I think a scum player who pushed hard yesterday, might not want to stick their neck out making a bunch of cases on players. Let them make the cases against themselves, keep them occupied. Maybe somebody slips.

Maybe it is desperation, but we are likely at lynch or lose. And I think it won't keep people occupied as much as it will force their participation at this point.

Overall, it seems like a bunch of nonsense, a ploy, or just an all around bad idea. I noticed Mahaloth is supporting it. And he is my primary candidate moving into today. That leaves an even worse taste in my mouth.

again, sez you.

[special ed]

Not sure how useful this will be

Day One

peekercpa (4): Mahaloth 482
KellyCriterion (3): Tom Scud 571
Chronos (3): MHaye 591
Drain Bead (2): Zeriel 560, special ed 565
TexCat (1): Red Skeezix 316, Tom Scud 328 571,
Oredigger77 (1): Drain Bead 347
Red Skeezix (1): TexCat 356, Freudian Slit 364 478
Zeriel (1): storyteller0910 564 567, One And Only Wanderers 570
Rysto (1):
Freudian Slit (1):
NAF1138 (0):
storyteller0910 (0):
One And Only Wanderers (0):
Mahaloth (0): Meeko 291 298
Not Voting (2) : Oredigger77

Day Two

One And Only Wanderers (8): Oredigger77 760, Mahaloth 815, Drain Bead 865, Zeriel 874,
Freudian Slit (8): Tom Scud 783, Red Skeezix 835, special ed 861, OAOW 871, MHaye 885
Mahaloth (1): storyteller0910 833
Jimmy Chitwood (0): Oredigger 717 734,
Drain Bead (0): Zeriel 715 874
GuiriEnEspaña (0):
TexCat (0): Tom Scud 706 783
Tom Scud (0): Mahaloth 787 815
Meeko (0):

Day Three

Chronos (7): special ed 924 995, Red Skeezix 974, Drain Bead 984, Oredigger77 990, Tom Scud 1002,
Tom Scud (4): Mahaloth 931, Zeriel 954, Chronos 971, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 986, Jimmy Chitwood 1004 1013
Oredigger77 (2): special ed 995, MHaye 1015
Jimmy Chitwood (1):
TexCat (1): Tom Scud 969 1002,

Day Four

Oredigger77 (10): GuiriEnEspaña 1032, TexCat 1035, special ed 1037, Drain Bead 1039, Tom Scud 1047, MHaye 1116, Rysto 1127, Mahaloth 1135, Red Skeezix 1136, Zeriel 1164
Rysto (2): Oredigger77 1137,
Tom Scud (1): Mahaloth 1031 1133,
ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies (0):
TexCat (0):

Day Five(before Tom's claim)

Drain (2): Special Ed 1225, Meeko 1256
Tom (3): Drain 1227, Mahaloth 1232, Red 1268
Red (1): Guiri 1246
Meeko (1): Tom 1264

Day 5 (after Tom's claim)

Tom Scud (8): Drain Bead 1227 1281 1287, Mahaloth 1232, Red Skeezix 1268, Meeko 1289, special ed 1292, Rysto 1293, Cookies 1294, GuiriEnEspaña 1299
Meeko (1): Tom Scud (1264)
Drain Bead (0): special ed 1225 1292,
Red Skeezix (0): GuiriEnEspaña 1246 1299

Day 6

Meeko (5) - special ed 1322, Drain Bead 1326, Red Skeezix 1352, Rysto 1365, Mahaloth 1369
Drain Bead (1) - Meeko 1327
Mahaloth (1) - Cookies 1356


Now I remember why I thought MHaye wasn't the unidentified Scum, it was his vote for Oredigger with me on Day 3. Though, looking at it now, Seriel was voting for Tom. I don't feel as confident in my assessment anymore.

in any case, the vote was strong on Chronos at that point, so a Scum vote could have gone anywhere. It does nothing to clear me either.

on Day 4, Drain and I had voted for Oredigger before Rysto's counter claim Mahaloth and Red voted after.

[special ed]

NETA, in case anyone was wondering what that was...it was the voting record with the confirmed Town removed. So basically it was the vote of us 4 unconformed, the Green people, and the Scum.

I also left in votes for the Scum

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Yes, I will either back my vote up or remove it. Feel free to ignore it until then.

[Red Skeezix]

1. There might be slips, like Red fears.


This sort of language bothers me. You are implying that I fear slips, which is something that I did not say. What I actually said was I fear a high rate of false-positives.


Is it a guilty until proven innocent approach? Yes. Is that appropriate for this stage of the game? perhaps


I don't have much problem with a guilty until proven innocent approach. Especially since at this point, excluding Cookies, I don't have any player who I think is definitely town, just varying shades of scumminess.


sez you. Why is it a waste of time? You're making a case against someone the other 4 people don't know is Town.


I could spend the time looking over the people who actually have a shot of being scum as opposed to someone I know isn't?


As I tried to point out earlier. I think it will cause true positives as well as omissions which could be useful.

Ok, the rate of false positives is as much speculation as you're belief that it will produce meaningful results.


Maybe it is desperation, but we are likely at lynch or lose. And I think it won't keep people occupied as much as it will force their participation at this point.


So far this point (about maintaining participation) and the the mere possiblity of legitimate slips are the only things this idea has going for it. One of the reasons I am extremely skeptical of you and you're ideas is that earlier this game we rushed into a name claim that could have been potentially devastating, and presumably forced town players to lie which could have been trouble had any of the other power roles who lied about their names. I think it was a rash move on our part, and it was pushed on hard by you jumping straight in.

There are four players who are unconfirmed right now, If we are at lynch or lose, that means that two of those players are scum. That means I have a 66% chance of just guessing right (in the worse case).

I am skeptical of how well this will work, but a part of me wants to try it out just to see if this would be an effective technique for later games. Most of my criticisms are based on what I think will happen, but I've never seen this tried so I really don't know if the criticisms are valid or not.

Also the game where you almost bamboozled me was SSBM:2. I was unsure about you, but your claim and your criticisms of my plan were selling me on the idea of altering the plan to focus on dirx or mentalguy rather than you.

[Red Skeezix]

NETA: The worse case I was referring two is if I just randomly picked one of the other three.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

A much more valuable exercise, and one that I can participate in as well, is for everyone to pick the unconfirmed players other than themselves and then make the best case possible against each as scum.

That is definitely what I think we should do instead of Ed's idea.

An angle I'm going to be looking at particularly are the interactions with Meeko. It is a bit metagame for my tastes, but I think it is fair considering how the scum have obviously used Meeko against his own faction in this game. For example, Drain has a consistent tone when it comes to Meeko. She is consistently hard on him when they're both town. Ed, on the other hand, I have seen come around to give Meeko the benefit of the doubt, but he didn't this time. I don't have anecdotal intel on Red or Mahaloth's interactions with Meeko, but based on that little exercise in my own head, Drain would get a mark in the null-tell category while Ed's mark would be potentially scummier.

I also would have rather Ed had proposed the idea that I describe as opposed to a) relegating me as the only confirmed-town player to only an observer/jury vs an active participant and b) suggesting something that is the opposite of how the game is usually played, and that wastes the time of at least 2 if not 3 of the unconfirmed players.

In fact, that is enough at this point to move my placeholder.

Unvote Red
Vote Ed

[Drain Bead]

So I slept on ed's idea, and I'm not in favor of it. I have a finite amount of time, and going through the game making a case against someone I know to be Town when we're likely at LyLo is not a good use of it. Not to mention that those of us who are Town are then handing cases against us to the Scum--the one who does the best job can get piled on! I think Cookies has it right here--we should be focusing on the unconfirmed that aren't us. Leave the specious cases up to the Scum to make. That's how we find out who is Scum. When some of us are making specious cases as Town, it just gives the Scum more places to hide.

In fact, I'm starting to think that Scum exposed themselves by agreeing with this idea, and I'm perfectly happy going with my initial instinct (and along with our only confirmed Town) by...

vote ed

[special ed]

well, if this is how the day is going to go, then good game, guys.

[special ed]

Summary of the entire game up until now with the main focus on the unconfirmed players with minor focus in the green players and the dead Scum.

Day 1
Day 1 started with some discussion of Meeko and his style of play. Encouraging comments were made by Zeriel, Alka Seltzer.
Rysto suggests a name claim.
Zeriel doesn't want a name claim.
NAF supports a name claim.
Oredigger doesn't oppose a name claim, but does think name claims will lock a player into a role (This implies that he knew name was related to power)
Freudian thinks we should look at people who are cagey about a name claim.
Chronos claims non-fictional, hasn't reached an opinion on name claiming.
Tom Scud is unsure about a name claim.
NAF states that if a name claim is meaningless, we should do it and get it over with.
Oredigger feels that name claims might give away power, but supports it anyway
Tom Scud supports a name claim
Peeker claims that his name has nothing to do with his power and it might just mucky up the water.
Freudian supports a name claim, says she has no profession but a race.
Oredigger says he has a description, not a profession.
Naf claims a religion and not a profession. Suggests that Scum don't fish, Town does.
Special Ed disagrees with NAF, stating that Scum do sometimes fish. Ed supports a name claim.
Drain questions how we will set up the order.
Meeko claim Surreal Artist
Rysto suggest a random list to set the order
Oredigger suggests we use sachs original list
Ed just goes ahead and claims Guy de Maupassant (Writer)
Meeko agrees with Tom Scud and opposes a name claim (oddly, Tom Scud had supported name claiming)
Mahaloth supports name claiming
Zeriel votes for peeker for his vote on story
peeker posts the infamous wicked witch video
Freudian claims Patroclus (Greek)
Tom Scud claims Busby Berkeley (Choreographer)
Oredigger claims George Washington (President)
Naf claims Joesph Smith (Mormon)
Red Skeezix claims Ogden Nash (Poet)
TexCat claims Benedict Arnold (Traitor)
Chronos claims Jesse Jackson (Reverend)
Mahaloth claims Samuel Johnson (Critic)
Drain claims Eva Peron (Spiritual Leader of the Nation of Argentina)
Meeko claims Joan Miró (Aritst)
Meeko and Chronos discuss if the order of claiming might reveal information.
peeker says something difficult to understand, but it includes 'wicked witch of the west.
Wanderers votes for NAF for the typo and claims Fu Mingxia (Olympic Gold Medalist)
Chronos jumps on the typo as well and votes NAF
Wanderers questions why Chronos claim doesn't appear to be a quote.
GuiriEnEspaña (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?u=85300) claims Gustave Eiffel (Architect)
Jimmy votes for Wanderers.
MHaye posts
The quoting/typo debate continues.
MHaye claims Tim Horton (Canadian)
Zeriel claims Lysander (Lover)
The Fictional debate ensues.
Jimmy claims Alexander Graham Bell (Inventor)
Rysto claims Petr Cech (Goalkeeper)
The debate on peeker's claim ensues.
Chronos gets on peeker for his odd way of claiming (the video) and Freduian wonders why later, peeker said "I chose" wicked witch
TexCat points out Meeko's typo
Meeko votes for Wanderer because Meeko too has a typo.
Freudian asks for peekr's role and takes some heat for it (from Ed and Meeko)
Zeriel questions people voting for Wanderers for pointing out typos.
KellyCriterion claims Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Composer)
KellyCriterion appears to be catching up and votes NAF for the typo
KellyCriterion unvotes NAF
Meeko questions why we gave up secret information to the Scum
stroyteller claims Baldrick (Servant) to finish the list
Ed questions Meeko on how he knows the Scum would know each other's roles. It wasn't in the rules. Also, Ed questions how Meeko 'knows' NAF is a power role
story is questioned on why he thinks name claiming was a bad move. Ed supports it as we got it out of the way as it seemed meaningless (and it really did to me, though it appears the names weren't as random as random implied)


Well, I'm through post 256 and this is taking quite some time..

My observation at this point is that I look the Scummiest because I keep poking at people who turned out to be Town (NAF, peeker, and Meeko) of course, only Chronos and Wanderers seem to be contributing too much poking and prodding at this point. Though Freudian is a bit.

So, I'll give this a rest, if you guys are bound and determined to lynch me, I can only hope that Zeriel and MHaye were both Scum.

I don't suppose there's anyone left who played in AlphaCentauri on GB, is there? It's feeling mighty similar to that.

[Red Skeezix]

So I slept on ed's idea, and I'm not in favor of it. I have a finite amount of time, and going through the game making a case against someone I know to be Town when we're likely at LyLo is not a good use of it. Not to mention that those of us who are Town are then handing cases against us to the Scum--the one who does the best job can get piled on! I think Cookies has it right here--we should be focusing on the unconfirmed that aren't us. Leave the specious cases up to the Scum to make. That's how we find out who is Scum. When some of us are making specious cases as Town, it just gives the Scum more places to hide.

In fact, I'm starting to think that Scum exposed themselves by agreeing with this idea, and I'm perfectly happy going with my initial instinct (and along with our only confirmed Town) by...

vote ed

I was unaware that Cookies wore such an extravagant coat that would allow you to ride those coattails around without falling off.
====
I haven't finished my digesting yet, but here's my summary thoughts so far.

Mahaloth: He's had a few posts that just are just egregious filler. He's committed the sin of admitting that he has no reads and no leads. I'm not sure if that is a scum tell, or an apathy tell, I think it is more likely the former. I'm having a hard time buying the apathetic town routine, when earlier he was being a cheerleader for more participation. He jumped at Special Ed's plan with gusto and gravy. This to me is scummy whether Ed is or isn't scum. To me it looks like he's either trying to build support for what I consider a bad idea, or he's trying to beat the rush to a plan that might have been enacted (aka Credit through early adoption). Story voted mahaloth on day 2 for a case that I was having a hard time understanding, was this a possible bread crumb?

Drain: There is rysto's vote analysis. Two different scenarios where drain fits neatly neatly into a scum voting position. (Chronos vote protecting Tom and voting oredigger before the counterclaim). She's been yoked to Tom Scud in more than a couple of places. 1. Marginalizing Meeko's posts. Both her and tom commented on how they were not interested in what he had to say. This could be read as provocation, i'm not entirely sold on this idea. 2. Tom said he understood based on what was said in the overnight thread. Was this a legit slip by Tom? I didn't read it as such originally, but now I'm not so sure. 3. Her confusion about why Tom was getting less attention than she expected. Finally, she was pushing pretty hard for meeko's lynch yesterday. Now she looks to be coattailing Cookies. I'm all for solidarity at the end of the day when it might be lylo, but not before brunch.

Special Ed: The scumminess that I detect from him is his willingness to push off anyone who doesn't agree with him. If he's scum, it feels like he's worked hard this game to build up a pro-town reputation, and he's using it to lean hard on anyone who disagrees with him. If we are in the final stretch, it fits for him to push hard against anyone who might draw his actions/opinions into question. Yesterday he was gung-ho about the Meeko lynch, and in turn said I was scummy for daring to look more closely at the holes in the case, that I was defending Meeko. The most scummy thing he's done in my opinion so far is to introduce the white elephant into the proceedings. I will say that I am not thrilled by the fact that expected us at this stage of the game to not ruminate on it. And that he believes that honest examination opposed to blind compliance is "Interesting".

[Drain Bead]

One of the big things about ed that bothers me is his sudden switch to thinking I was Town, without really supporting it. Saying I'm playing like Town is all well and good, but what does it mean, really? What evidence can he point to that supports his assertion? I was riding his ass pretty hard for a couple of Days--I think what he did served the limited purpose of getting me to back off of him in late game, when his loss would be more harmful to his team. It's classic snuggling, and I'm pissed at myself for falling for it.

[special ed]

Do you remember my case against you?

It was based largely on:

1.one off voting Oredigger on Day 1
2. Making a stink with opposing the Peeker on Day 1
3. Your reaction to the fact that I didn't accuse you of anything as I went through a list of people getting votes on Day 3
4. Your attack on Oredigger when he voted for Chronos (and my mistaken conclusion that you neglected to mention you were voting for Chronos as well)

So, the case was based on assuming you were Scum defending peeker who you would have known was Town, one off voting Oredigger and maintaining a sustained attack on him (as I've seen you do to fellow Scum)

Since then, I've seen more reasons to suspect others (like Meeko for his vote for Rysto) than I have for you.

Are you cleared in my mind, not at all. But I've realized the case I made against you hasn't grown any stronger while the others are more difficult to get a read on since their participation is more limited.

On another board, I've started taking a different approach. I was much less participatory. It got my NK'd on Night 3, which is OK as I was Vanilla, I've been hesitant to use such a strategy on this board, since I think this board suffers from limited participation from too many players. As of now, I have 200 posts in this thread. that's 14% of the participation. Also, think of all the posts my comments have caused. Take that away and I think we'd have much less information out there. I think it makes me too easy of a target in late game.

As to Red's comments on SSB2, I did manage to get attention turned onto a 3rd party Dirx to earn myself 1 extra Day, but the Scum were completely wiped out in that game. and we were so completely destroyed that I surrendered after Day 4.

[special ed]

and, you know what? In Alpha Centauri, I stood and screamed and begged and demanded that people go back and checked the history of the game.

And the Scum managed to convince 1 Town I was Scum because of my attitude.

And I just don't have the engery to do that.

So forget it. You can go back and look at the history of this game or you can just trust your memory on a game that started more than 6 weeks ago, sobeit.

I apologize for the frustration getting to me, I'll just wait for the next game.

[special ed]

Wow, I don't usually get that pissy. It was a bad day, I guess. My apologies to everyone. It's just frustrating to know we're this close to winning and people might not be willing to do the work to win it. And maybe I just assumed you wouldn't do the work...I shouldn't have felt that way, since it's possible that it can be done.

And it's Sunday, so no one is checking in.

OK, but here's the deal. I'm not going to go do all the work toDay. I'm tried of that, and I doubt anyone will trust me. You'll probably find a mistake I made and decide that makes me Scum anyway, and with 1500 posts to go through, I'm sure I'll make mistakes.

You guys do the work. If you want to lynch me, let me know. I'll even edit a post so I can get removed and we can end the game early, if you wish. If you want to lynch someone else, then it's up to the 2 of you who are Town to make the case.

Other than that, if town is going to lynch me on Day 7 for coming up with an idea you don't like, then we don't deserve the win.

I'll check back at some point.

[ShadowFacts]

Monday morning vote count:


special ed (2) Voted by: Cookies 1427, Drain Bead 1428

Red Skeezix (0) Voted by: Cookies 1411 1427

[Mahaloth]

Wow. I have no idea what to do and this is getting sticky. I see everyone's points about Ed trying to get us to review our histories and provide cases against ourselves. It does seem to provide a way for others to point to cases we make on ourselves and place votes easily. On the other hand, I didn't really dislike the idea, as at least it gets people talking about their trends in the game.

I've read ed as town through toDay, and I hardly think that one idea is so scummy that it makes him the easy lynch. I mean, I suppose people think that he and the other scum(assuming there is another one) discussed this strategy at Night and agreed for ed to introduce it right away in the new Day?

I'm not ready to vote yet. Ed, please don't get yourself modkilled to end the game. Let us think about what we are doing.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Hopefully after sleeping for the past 20 or so hours, I've re-tooled my internal clock so that it is sort of like morning now (1:45pm), and I will begin my re-reading.

I also have something to say to Ed as to the effort in playing the game. Trying being a sub. This will be the second time I'm trying to crawl through 17 pages that have shit to do with me, but it is still better than your idea. You are coming across as cranky and defensive to me.

[special ed]

Hopefully after sleeping for the past 20 or so hours, I've re-tooled my internal clock so that it is sort of like morning now (1:45pm), and I will begin my re-reading.

I also have something to say to Ed as to the effort in playing the game. Trying being a sub. This will be the second time I'm trying to crawl through 17 pages that have shit to do with me, but it is still better than your idea. You are coming across as cranky and defensive to me.

So then vote for me for being cranky and defensive. It's as effective as voting for the most recent thing to happen.

And I know I sound cranky. I've apologized for that. I cannot encourage anyone any more that they go back and re-read and form their own conclusions.

Just because I'm willing to spend a significant amount of time and comb through the past means I expect it of everyone else, and that's not fair of me. I shouldn't do that. Different people approach the game differently.

I know I've said it, but it's very reminiscent of a game I already played. A game in which with 5 players left, 1 Town player and 2 Scum got me lynched because I was vocal and prodding and aggressive, and they didn't like it. So I'm not going to invest my energy into the game at this point. It's up to the 4 of you to reach your conclusions how you will and vote how you will.

I'm going to do the same and

vote Red Skeezix

because he continues to find no one suspicious, and that to me is suspicious. It's possible that I might do some research and change my mind.

I'm still stunned, honestly, that Meeko wasn't Scum. I'm not sure how he came to the conclusion to vote for Rysto over Oredigger. Obviously, even the Scum saw it as the obvious vote.

@ Red, I was only willing to have the modkill happen to end the game if we're bound and determined to lynch me instead of awaiting until Thursday. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

[special ed]

That still sounded more pissy than I intended.

Let me try it this way.

1. I am going to try to be less pushy.
2. I will try to post less, prod less, poke less.

We'll see if that works.

[Red Skeezix]

I'm going to do the same and

vote Red Skeezix

because he continues to find no one suspicious, and that to me is suspicious. It's possible that I might do some research and change my mind.

I'm still stunned, honestly, that Meeko wasn't Scum. I'm not sure how he came to the conclusion to vote for Rysto over Oredigger. Obviously, even the Scum saw it as the obvious vote.

@ Red, I was only willing to have the modkill happen to end the game if we're bound and determined to lynch me instead of awaiting until Thursday. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

Are you confusing me with Mahaloth? It sure seems like it, from where I'm sitting anyways.

[Drain Bead]

I dunno, ed. I don't see people "bound and determined" to lynch you at this point. You've gotten two votes. Certainly not insurmountable. Convince me you're not Scum. Go back and look at yourself, and don't make a case against yourself, make a case for yourself. When you post an analysis of Day One and sum it up by essentially saying "I look Scummy," it doesn't exactly give us the most confidence in you.

[Red Skeezix]

And, I've decided I like the Drain Bead summary I made best for scum.

I'm still considering the other cases, but I really should take a stand with my convictions right now. And I'm not entirely sold on Bad Idea = Scum.

vote Drain Bead

[special ed]

I dunno, ed. I don't see people "bound and determined" to lynch you at this point. You've gotten two votes. Certainly not insurmountable. Convince me you're not Scum. Go back and look at yourself, and don't make a case against yourself, make a case for yourself. When you post an analysis of Day One and sum it up by essentially saying "I look Scummy," it doesn't exactly give us the most confidence in you.

1. If there are 2 Scum, Cookies vote seals my/our doom.
2. No, I won't try to convince you of anything.
3. I'm done posting summaries of anything. If you want something to analize, I point you in the direction of this thread.

[Mahaloth]

Are you confusing me with Mahaloth? It sure seems like it, from where I'm sitting anyways.

What do you mean? I've found plenty of people suspicious and was an early voter to get Tom, who(if you have forgotten) turned out to be scum.

Ed, I have no idea what Meeko was thinking with the Rysto vote. It is what it is.

[special ed]

Are you confusing me with Mahaloth? It sure seems like it, from where I'm sitting anyways.


I'm not at all confused, but I do imagine you might be.

If not yet, you will

[Red Skeezix]

@ Red, I was only willing to have the modkill happen to end the game if we're bound and determined to lynch me instead of awaiting until Thursday. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.


I've never commented on his idea of suicide-by-modkill.

What do you mean? I've found plenty of people suspicious and was an early voter to get Tom, who(if you have forgotten) turned out to be scum.

Feeling a bit jumpy?

[special ed]

NETA:

be

[special ed]

I've never commented on his idea of suicide-by-modkill.




very true, on that point, I was confused. Well, no, just wrong.

unvote Red
vote Drain

[Drain Bead]

And two of the unconfirmed are now voting for me. Telling? If Mahaloth jumps on, we're fucked. And I'm not comfortable at all having him determine my fate, since I think he's Scum.

Ed, you have to consider that this is almost certainly LyLo. Because of this, if you are Town, you need to move votes off of you. You're not just convincing me, even though I'm the one pushing you. If you're Town, the only way you can prevail right now is if you convince Cookies to unvote you and vote for Scum. That's why I don't like your fatalistic attitude right now--it's the attitude that someone who won't necessarily lose by dying would have.

If you're Town, do me a favor and play to win. I'd like my team to win, damn it.

[Drain Bead]

Also, you went from thinking I'm Town yesterDay and Dawn, to being more sure that I'm Scum than anyone else in the game. What happened to change your perception, other than my vote for you, and Red voting for me? What in particular did I do to change your estimation?

[special ed]

Also, you went from thinking I'm Town yesterDay and Dawn, to being more sure that I'm Scum than anyone else in the game. What happened to change your perception, other than my vote for you, and Red voting for me? What in particular did I do to change your estimation?

but don't you see, with your vote for me, Town loses, especially if you're Town.


So, um...why are you asking me to remove my vote from you while your vote for me does exactly what you're complaining against...cause Town to lose?

[special ed]

Ed, you have to consider that this is almost certainly LyLo. Because of this, if you are Town, you need to move votes off of you. You're not just convincing me, even though I'm the one pushing you. If you're Town, the only way you can prevail right now is if you convince Cookies to unvote you and vote for Scum. That's why I don't like your fatalistic attitude right now--it's the attitude that someone who won't necessarily lose by dying would have.

I only need to move Town votes off of me, not all votes.

[Mahaloth]

Feeling a bit jumpy?

Uh, no. Why? You tried to put things on me that weren't accurate. That's not jumpy; it's accurate defense.

[Drain Bead]

I only need to move Town votes off of me, not all votes.

Hence my saying that you need Cookies to move her vote off of you. In truth, my vote goes where Cookies does, provided it's not on me. My suspicion list is basically you, Mahaloth, then Red. I'd wholeheartedly prefer it if Cookies voted for one of the first two on my list, of course, but as our only confirmed Town, Cookies is free to do as she wishes.

And I wasn't asking you to remove your vote from me (although it would be nice), I was asking you to justify your change in thinking, which your answer did not do. In fact, your answer addressed something completely outside of the post it quoted. So I'll ask again, and this time please do not dodge. YesterDay you thought I was Town. Earlier toDay you thought I was Town. What specifically, other than my vote for you and the fact that I picked up a vote from Red, did I do to suddenly jump me up ahead of the other two unconfirmeds?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'm still putting my cases together, but I've been quite clear all day that the two votes I've placed have been placeholders. Don't you think it is more insightful to look at the big picture than just how the posts and votes have gone toDay?

[special ed]

Hence my saying that you need Cookies to move her vote off of you. In truth, my vote goes where Cookies does, provided it's not on me. My suspicion list is basically you, Mahaloth, then Red. I'd wholeheartedly prefer it if Cookies voted for one of the first two on my list, of course, but as our only confirmed Town, Cookies is free to do as she wishes.

And I wasn't asking you to remove your vote from me (although it would be nice), I was asking you to justify your change in thinking, which your answer did not do. In fact, your answer addressed something completely outside of the post it quoted. So I'll ask again, and this time please do not dodge. YesterDay you thought I was Town. Earlier toDay you thought I was Town. What specifically, other than my vote for you and the fact that I picked up a vote from Red, did I do to suddenly jump me up ahead of the other two unconfirmeds?


Let me try another answer.

Yes. No? Maybe!

Sorry, at this point in the game, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything nor do I particularly care what your opinion is. No offense intended.

No, that's a lie. I do care about your opinion, but I'm not going to try to influence it.


PS< you did nothing, other players increased their relative scumminess. I thought I was clear. When you voted for Meeko early, it increased your 'towniness' in my eyes (I was sure Meeko was Scum at that point.) And Red's defense of Meeko made him appear more Scummy. And Mahaloth's play didn't appear too pro-Town motivated.

Of course, Meeko flipped Town and that sorta changed things, now didn't it.

Now, go on and build a case or something and stop worrying about what I'm doing.

[special ed]

I'm still putting my cases together, but I've been quite clear all day that the two votes I've placed have been placeholders.

Very clear, thanks.

Don't you think it is more insightful to look at the big picture than just how the posts and votes have gone toDay?

Yes, No? Maybe!

[ShadowFacts]

Tuesday morning vote count:

special ed (2) Voted by: Cookies 1427, Drain Bead 1428

Drain Bead (2) Voted by: Red Skeezix 1443, special ed 1449

Red Skeezix (0) Voted by: Cookies 1411 1427, special ed 1439 1449

[Drain Bead]

Spoiler boxed so as not to totally eff up the thread.

Day/Night One

Gets angry at peeker for his whole voting a strong player on Day One idea (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243553&postcount=122)
Disagrees with NAF about whether Scum need to fish. Says he's seen a few fishing attempts made by Scum. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243774&postcount=130)
Agrees with mass name claim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243777&postcount=131)
Thinks that the roles in Random Mafia are truly random. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243823&postcount=137)
Is the first to name claim, after I had asked how we determine the order (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243840&postcount=140)
Says that fishing nabbed Scum on Day One in another game. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243849&postcount=142)
Explains some past game history to Meeko (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243856&postcount=143)
Comes to an agreement with NAF about the fishing thing (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243937&postcount=150)
Asks Freudian why she's asking for Peeker's role (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12247557&postcount=230)
Asks Freudian if she meant to ask for Peeker's name instead (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12247564&postcount=232)
Says that the blue text in post 122 was not meant to be a vote (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12247621&postcount=234)
Asks if we know if the Scum knows one another's names from the rules, in response to a Meeko post where he insinuated that they did (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12248903&postcount=249)
Justifies the name claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12248907&postcount=250)
Says he checked the rules and they don't say the Scum know one another, asks Meeko how he knew this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12248917&postcount=251)
Ed's longest post of the Day, arguing with Meeko about the Scum name issue, and whether names have connection to roles. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12249905&postcount=274)
Another episode of the ed/Meeko show. Says he's not trying to bait Meeko. Accuses Meeko of PIS. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12250400&postcount=280)
Thinks he misunderstood what Meeko was initially saying about Scum knowing one another's names. Goes back on his accusations of PIS against Meeko. Says he's not picking on him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12250457&postcount=282)
Reminds peeker that he's a shitty Vig (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12253395&postcount=334)
Says that peeker's video name claim wasn't clear (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12254123&postcount=342)
Says that he didn't take offense when peeker told him to fuck off after he reminded him that he was a shitty vig (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12254128&postcount=343) ;)
Tells Meeko that he just made a really good post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12254939&postcount=357)
Says peeker is often confusing, and he outed peeker as Scum in one game because he wasn't confusing (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12254985&postcount=358)
Tells peeker that his style of communicating is what gets people to vote for him (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255034&postcount=361)
Attempts to place his first video wicked witch claim in context, determines that it appears to be a defense of his joke vote for storyteller and not an actual claim. Figures out that the first thing that could have been determined to be a peeker claim was after the 11th claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255063&postcount=363)
Jumps on Freudian for making an unprovoked Day One vanilla claim, asks why she made a post about TexCat but voted for Red (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255090&postcount=366)
Figures out that Freudian's Red vote was because his vote for TexCat was bad. Calls it a weak vote but says he at least understands it now. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255099&postcount=367)
Asks if Peeker is claiming 3rd party (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255106&postcount=369)
Says why he thinks Freudian's unprovoked vanilla claim is bad--because it's a good place for Scum to hide, and if she's really a power role she has to admit she lied later. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255120&postcount=371) (A bit of commentary here--he does not mention the fact that she made the pool for power roles to hide in smaller for the Scum, which is generally why unprovoked vanilla claims are bad. Not sure if this means anything or not.)
Points out what he thinks was a third party claim from peeker (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255144&postcount=375)
Another long post. Says that peeker was being obtuse and confusing. Says that people don't like to decipher peeker's playstyle. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12256387&postcount=396)
Tells peeker that people object to the style of his play, not the amount of his participation. Begs him to be clear. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257150&postcount=412)
Says that peeker did not provide the proper context for his video roleclaim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257891&postcount=437)
Comes up with a potential scummy motivation for peeker's obfuscation in his roleclaim, that he could have been waiting for more people to claim bad or evil roles. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257909&postcount=440)
Again points out that peeker's claim seemed more a response to Zeriel's vote for peeker than a roleclaim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257938&postcount=442)
Tells peeker that this game has nothing to do with the last game, asks him again what about his post made it obvious that it was a roleclaim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257999&postcount=445)
Asks peeker how his link about Elizabeth Berkley wasn't a roleclaim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258004&postcount=446)
Asks the same question about what in his post made it a claim to peeker yet again. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258589&postcount=452)
Says he'll let it go because it's not worth basing a vote on, but is concerned that peeker either doesn't see the issue or is being deliberately obtuse. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258626&postcount=455)
Wants peeker to be more clear in the future. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258656&postcount=458)
Says that Jimmy's "town is shooting itself in the bung" comment is pinging him. Asks Jimmy what his point is regarding OAOW/Meeko (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258708&postcount=460)
Says that peeker's defense in every game is to call the people voting him Scum or misguided Townie (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261372&postcount=495)
More on the peeker claim issue about how people couldn't tell it was a claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261399&postcount=496)
Points out Meeko backing up a vote for personal reasons even though Meeko thinks that votes on him are personal. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261407&postcount=497)
Says it's weird that Meeko is giving Kelly a pass based on the odds. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261421&postcount=498)
preemptive Meeko snark (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261571&postcount=502)
Clarifies that the snark was about Meeko (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261715&postcount=504)
Again, more arguing with peeker about the claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262244&postcount=524)
Says that he now gets that peeker was breadcrumbing his claim with the video, but is not sure why he needed to. Says that he's hesitant to vote peeker because he always does, but he's the most suspicious player right now. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262393&postcount=525)
More snark on Meeko, asks him where anyone says he was Scum protecting another Scum (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262727&postcount=530)
One word answer to Meeko's response. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262777&postcount=533)
One word answer to Meeko asking what we should make of the dead mayor (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262789&postcount=535)
Another post arguing with peeker about the name claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262862&postcount=539)
Snark on peeker. I think. I'm not really sure what this meant. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262890&postcount=542)
Joke post, I think, posting a video. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12263190&postcount=547)
Votes for me. Thinks I am setting up an "I told you so" case if peeker is Town. Thinks I'm not paying attention to the case against peeker. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12264808&postcount=565)
Points out that the rules allow Night strategy. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265808&postcount=601)
Defense of Kelly, says that it looks like someone who posted as they caught up, voting when the case was presented and unvoting when he saw the arguments against it. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265816&postcount=602)
Says that he often does catch-up posting, in response to Jimmy thinking that was more of a Scum move. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265844&postcount=607)
***end of Day One, peeker dies, is Town.
Posts links to some old games. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265937&postcount=619)
Missed a game in his links post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12266138&postcount=624)


Possible Town Indicators
--First to name-claim.
--Very high participation.

Possible Scum Indicators
--In Post 280, he accuses Meeko of PIS. Now, I don't know if this is on the level of third-vote-as-Scum-tell, but I've often thought that people who point out potential PIS slips, especially early in the game, are more likely than not to be Scum, either bussing another teammate or trying to set up an easy case on Town. This has played out in the last few games I've been in. But that's more gut with me than anything else.
--More importantly, he practically drives the peeker wagon, to the point of bringing it up repeatedly after he said he'd drop it, and then ends the Day voting for me. First he says that peeker isn't worth a vote for his behavior. Then he says that he's the most suspicious person, and I can't really see that much changed in the discussion between him. But he still refuses to vote for him, and votes for me instead. Just seems Scummy to me--keep poking at peeker, rile him up, watch as the votes pile up on him, but keep your hands clean in the end by making sure your vote is on someone else.

Day/Night Two to follow...I'm on page 17 of a 37 page thread right now, and not getting any work done. ;)

Also, I find it easier to go through the thread itself rather than search it by username, especially with someone as prolific as ed. If I miss a post, I apologize.

[special ed]

Spoiler boxed so as not to totally eff up the thread.

Day/Night One

Gets angry at peeker for his whole voting a strong player on Day One idea (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243553&postcount=122)
Disagrees with NAF about whether Scum need to fish. Says he's seen a few fishing attempts made by Scum. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243774&postcount=130)
Agrees with mass name claim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243777&postcount=131)
Thinks that the roles in Random Mafia are truly random. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243823&postcount=137)
Is the first to name claim, after I had asked how we determine the order (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243840&postcount=140)
Says that fishing nabbed Scum on Day One in another game. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243849&postcount=142)
Explains some past game history to Meeko (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243856&postcount=143)
Comes to an agreement with NAF about the fishing thing (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243937&postcount=150)
Asks Freudian why she's asking for Peeker's role (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12247557&postcount=230)
Asks Freudian if she meant to ask for Peeker's name instead (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12247564&postcount=232)
Says that the blue text in post 122 was not meant to be a vote (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12247621&postcount=234)
Asks if we know if the Scum knows one another's names from the rules, in response to a Meeko post where he insinuated that they did (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12248903&postcount=249)
Justifies the name claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12248907&postcount=250)
Says he checked the rules and they don't say the Scum know one another, asks Meeko how he knew this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12248917&postcount=251)
Ed's longest post of the Day, arguing with Meeko about the Scum name issue, and whether names have connection to roles. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12249905&postcount=274)
Another episode of the ed/Meeko show. Says he's not trying to bait Meeko. Accuses Meeko of PIS. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12250400&postcount=280)
Thinks he misunderstood what Meeko was initially saying about Scum knowing one another's names. Goes back on his accusations of PIS against Meeko. Says he's not picking on him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12250457&postcount=282)
Reminds peeker that he's a shitty Vig (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12253395&postcount=334)
Says that peeker's video name claim wasn't clear (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12254123&postcount=342)
Says that he didn't take offense when peeker told him to fuck off after he reminded him that he was a shitty vig (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12254128&postcount=343) ;)
Tells Meeko that he just made a really good post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12254939&postcount=357)
Says peeker is often confusing, and he outed peeker as Scum in one game because he wasn't confusing (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12254985&postcount=358)
Tells peeker that his style of communicating is what gets people to vote for him (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255034&postcount=361)
Attempts to place his first video wicked witch claim in context, determines that it appears to be a defense of his joke vote for storyteller and not an actual claim. Figures out that the first thing that could have been determined to be a peeker claim was after the 11th claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255063&postcount=363)
Jumps on Freudian for making an unprovoked Day One vanilla claim, asks why she made a post about TexCat but voted for Red (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255090&postcount=366)
Figures out that Freudian's Red vote was because his vote for TexCat was bad. Calls it a weak vote but says he at least understands it now. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255099&postcount=367)
Asks if Peeker is claiming 3rd party (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255106&postcount=369)
Says why he thinks Freudian's unprovoked vanilla claim is bad--because it's a good place for Scum to hide, and if she's really a power role she has to admit she lied later. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255120&postcount=371) (A bit of commentary here--he does not mention the fact that she made the pool for power roles to hide in smaller for the Scum, which is generally why unprovoked vanilla claims are bad. Not sure if this means anything or not.)
Points out what he thinks was a third party claim from peeker (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255144&postcount=375)
Another long post. Says that peeker was being obtuse and confusing. Says that people don't like to decipher peeker's playstyle. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12256387&postcount=396)
Tells peeker that people object to the style of his play, not the amount of his participation. Begs him to be clear. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257150&postcount=412)
Says that peeker did not provide the proper context for his video roleclaim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257891&postcount=437)
Comes up with a potential scummy motivation for peeker's obfuscation in his roleclaim, that he could have been waiting for more people to claim bad or evil roles. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257909&postcount=440)
Again points out that peeker's claim seemed more a response to Zeriel's vote for peeker than a roleclaim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257938&postcount=442)
Tells peeker that this game has nothing to do with the last game, asks him again what about his post made it obvious that it was a roleclaim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257999&postcount=445)
Asks peeker how his link about Elizabeth Berkley wasn't a roleclaim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258004&postcount=446)
Asks the same question about what in his post made it a claim to peeker yet again. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258589&postcount=452)
Says he'll let it go because it's not worth basing a vote on, but is concerned that peeker either doesn't see the issue or is being deliberately obtuse. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258626&postcount=455)
Wants peeker to be more clear in the future. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258656&postcount=458)
Says that Jimmy's "town is shooting itself in the bung" comment is pinging him. Asks Jimmy what his point is regarding OAOW/Meeko (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12258708&postcount=460)
Says that peeker's defense in every game is to call the people voting him Scum or misguided Townie (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261372&postcount=495)
More on the peeker claim issue about how people couldn't tell it was a claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261399&postcount=496)
Points out Meeko backing up a vote for personal reasons even though Meeko thinks that votes on him are personal. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261407&postcount=497)
Says it's weird that Meeko is giving Kelly a pass based on the odds. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261421&postcount=498)
preemptive Meeko snark (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261571&postcount=502)
Clarifies that the snark was about Meeko (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261715&postcount=504)
Again, more arguing with peeker about the claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262244&postcount=524)
Says that he now gets that peeker was breadcrumbing his claim with the video, but is not sure why he needed to. Says that he's hesitant to vote peeker because he always does, but he's the most suspicious player right now. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262393&postcount=525)
More snark on Meeko, asks him where anyone says he was Scum protecting another Scum (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262727&postcount=530)
One word answer to Meeko's response. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262777&postcount=533)
One word answer to Meeko asking what we should make of the dead mayor (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262789&postcount=535)
Another post arguing with peeker about the name claim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262862&postcount=539)
Snark on peeker. I think. I'm not really sure what this meant. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262890&postcount=542)
Joke post, I think, posting a video. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12263190&postcount=547)
Votes for me. Thinks I am setting up an "I told you so" case if peeker is Town. Thinks I'm not paying attention to the case against peeker. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12264808&postcount=565)
Points out that the rules allow Night strategy. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265808&postcount=601)
Defense of Kelly, says that it looks like someone who posted as they caught up, voting when the case was presented and unvoting when he saw the arguments against it. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265816&postcount=602)
Says that he often does catch-up posting, in response to Jimmy thinking that was more of a Scum move. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265844&postcount=607)
***end of Day One, peeker dies, is Town.
Posts links to some old games. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265937&postcount=619)
Missed a game in his links post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12266138&postcount=624)


Possible Town Indicators
--First to name-claim.
--Very high participation.

Possible Scum Indicators
--In Post 280, he accuses Meeko of PIS. Now, I don't know if this is on the level of third-vote-as-Scum-tell, but I've often thought that people who point out potential PIS slips, especially early in the game, are more likely than not to be Scum, either bussing another teammate or trying to set up an easy case on Town. This has played out in the last few games I've been in. But that's more gut with me than anything else.
--More importantly, he practically drives the peeker wagon, to the point of bringing it up repeatedly after he said he'd drop it, and then ends the Day voting for me. First he says that peeker isn't worth a vote for his behavior. Then he says that he's the most suspicious person, and I can't really see that much changed in the discussion between him. But he still refuses to vote for him, and votes for me instead. Just seems Scummy to me--keep poking at peeker, rile him up, watch as the votes pile up on him, but keep your hands clean in the end by making sure your vote is on someone else.

Day/Night Two to follow...I'm on page 17 of a 37 page thread right now, and not getting any work done. ;)

Also, I find it easier to go through the thread itself rather than search it by username, especially with someone as prolific as ed. If I miss a post, I apologize.


YAY!

Just a couple of points. Yes, I poked at Peeker and at Meeko. Yes I voted niehter of them. yes, I voted for Drain shortly after she did what I saw as the most suspicious thing of the day.

Additionally, your comment that "Scum point out PIS more than Town do" has been breought up in previous games and is not widely accepted as True. It is also akin to saying "Scum point out scummy behavior more than Town do." I don't think I need to point out how ridiculous that argument is.

I think, if you look at the information Meeko was claiming to be true, you'll see that there's no reasonable way for him to know what he felt to be true without PIS, my statement makes much sense. Also, you'll notice that I didn't vote for Meeko at that point (as far as I recall) because I felt it was possible that meeko was just thinking he knew more than he could possibly know by making assumption on things he assumed rather than things he knew.

[Drain Bead]

Day/Night Two


Asks Freudian if anyone actually voted Meeko for the "odds" post regarding Kelly. Points out that he could either be Town making a bad argument or Scum who doesn't understand that it's best to let a buddy die to serve the greater good. Doesn't vote Meeko but says he's pinging him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12274624&postcount=659)
Throws out the possibility that Meeko and Kelly could be masons (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12274654&postcount=662)
Hopes that someone who didn't have a role identified at death is vanilla. Is fairly certain at least peeker was, because he didn't claim a power role. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12274919&postcount=665)
Lots of smilies. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275081&postcount=670)
Says that Meeko made an OMGUS vote, attacks his outline line by line. Says that the case against Meeko isn't rock solid, but there's meat to it. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275116&postcount=671)
More snark against Meeko (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275294&postcount=673)
"The meat is that you came out and handwaved the case against Kelly." (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275302&postcount=676)
Tells Meeko that he's mischaracterizing the case against him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275311&postcount=677)
Asks Meeko a bunch of questions. Explains the difference between a smudge and an accusation. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275338&postcount=679)
Says that Meeko is confusing cases with proof. Points out more misrepresentations that Meeko is making. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12276014&postcount=689)
Is unsure how Meeko concluded that ed was saying Meeko was Scum because he used facts and logic and tried to investigate slips. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12276127&postcount=695)
Says it's hard to determine motivation behind a post. Asks Meeko why he's voting for Freudian when odds are she's Town too. Says that Freudian could be voting for Meeko because she knows it's a mislynch. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12276143&postcount=697)
Says he'll let go the Meeko arguments. Doesn't particularly think Meeko is Scum, just thinks he gets overly defensive when questioned, and is trying to help point out where his logic goes haywire. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12276179&postcount=701)
Asks Mahaloth what he's contributing to the thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12283187&postcount=752)
Doesn't know what the case against OAOW is. Is pinged heavily by Jimmy. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12284934&postcount=765)
Spells out what he thinks Jimmy's case against OAOW is, then asks him to clarify if he's gotten it wrong. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285002&postcount=767)
Argues with Jimmy about his case, asks what OAOW's scum motivation is. Asks for comments from the other OAOW voters. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285297&postcount=778)
In response to Freudian, says: "So, you argue that someone did something because they are Scum....and then when pointed out there's little Scum motivation to do so....your response is, well, just because they aren't Scum for my reason doesn't mean they aren't Scum is kinda foolish, no?" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285345&postcount=784)
Asks for opinion from everyone else on Tom's case against Freudian (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285654&postcount=793)
Says he wasn't asking for Freudian's opinion on the case against her. Says that he's not necessarily going to hold her weak cases against her. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285956&postcount=799)
Says that Freudian's vote pattern is opportunistic and her cases are weak. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12286006&postcount=800)
Corrects that he meant OAOW and not Oredigger in previous post. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12286042&postcount=801)
Is evidently puzzled by something OAOW said. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12286784&postcount=808)
Accepts Oredigger's reasoning in his OAOW vote. Asks what he thinks OAOW was trying to hide. Says that Freudian made a case against Red but couldn't be bothered to figure out who else was voting for him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287460&postcount=812)
Asks Jimmy for post numbers of things OAOW was ignoring when making his vote. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287719&postcount=818)
Says that Mahaloth was not the first to call OAOW on the thing that Ed was evidently puzzled about. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287723&postcount=819)
Is set for 200 posts per page so the game is only on page 5 for him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287840&postcount=824) (Lucky ed--this post is on page 21 for me)
Asks Jimmy if a comment he made to Mahaloth is referring to another game. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287857&postcount=827)
Makes comments about each player. Is most suspicious of Mahaloth, OAOW, and Freudian, not in that order. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12288391&postcount=838)
Says that nothing I've done has really pinged him...yet (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289053&postcount=843)*
Is concerned that I seem upset that he didn't comment about me. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289233&postcount=845)
Says again that he doesn't find anything out of the ordinary about me (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289754&postcount=849)*
Is willing to chalk Tom's "overnight thread' comment up to a mistake. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289755&postcount=850)
Starts it up with Meeko again, about the odds issue. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12290599&postcount=858)
Votes Freudian for poor cases and bandwagon-hopping. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12290643&postcount=861)
Doesn't like my vote on OAOW (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12291047&postcount=879)
Links back to his case against Freudian (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12291917&postcount=884)
***End of Day Two. OAOW dies.
Only one Night post by ed, it's fluff.

The big thing that jumps out at me upon re-read is something I starred--ed says that nothing I've done has pinged him...yet. Keep in mind that he ended the Day before with a vote on me! Now, Day Two was probably my worst Day of this game in terms of participation and motivation--I forgot who I was voting for on Day One too, and admitted as much in the thread. But you don't see me on Day Two saying that nothing Oredigger had done so far had pinged me, either. ed, OTOH, goes out of his way to say that I had yet to ping him and that he found nothing out of the ordinary about me. Very strange comments to be made about someone you voted for the Day before! I really wish I would have caught this earlier.

[Drain Bead]

Points out that story's death reveal doesn't match his claim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12299206&postcount=910)
Updated voting info. Says that since the two vote leaders were Town, Scum could have been hiding anywhere. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12299224&postcount=912)
Apologizes for the strikethroughs not C&Ping in his voting info post. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12299249&postcount=915)
Agrees that it appears Vig killed Freudian. Says that it might not be all that bad, as we would have wasted a Day arguing for her lynch. Votes for Chronos for not figuring out that story fake-claimed because he was Cop, says that Chronos is trying to redirect attention. Says that a Detective with a guilty finding may not have claimed. Lists all of Story's suspicions, of whom only Chronos, Mahaloth and Meeko remained alive at that point. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12299707&postcount=924)
Thinks that the only way story investigated Chronos night one is if Chronos is Scum (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12299756&postcount=926)
Discusses potential mechanics of Vig role. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12300169&postcount=932)
Responds to Meeko saying that ed was making too many assumptions too quickly about the Vigilante. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12302977&postcount=939)
Jumps on TexCat for failing to understand Jimmy. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12303039&postcount=942)
Again points out that he thinks TexCat mischaracterized what Jimmy said. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12303067&postcount=945)
Says "just two points" about TexCat's comment regarding tampering with Freudian's death reveal, then makes three points. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12303107&postcount=948) ;)
Says Scum was motivated to blend in with the OAOW/Freudian race by voting for one or the other (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12303126&postcount=951)
Unvotes Chronos, votes Oredigger, based on my analysis of his vote post. Points out that Oredigger could be Scum gloating by saying "as the Scum sit back and laugh." (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12313995&postcount=995)
Asks when Day ends (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12314006&postcount=996)
A NETA to change "good" cases to "bad" cases in his Oredigger vote post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12314015&postcount=997)
Says Day ends in 80 minutes. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12317852&postcount=1012)
**** Day ends, Chronos dies.
No Night posts.

Ed looks good here. Ends the Day with a vote on Scum, and unvotes Town to do it, in a close race between Town and Scum. I see no major logical inconsistencies toDay, unlike in previous Days.

[Drain Bead]

Revotes Oredigger. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12326338&postcount=1037)
Says that Meeko is fishing for an additional Mason claim, and that he is capable of changing the way he posts when he is Scum. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327516&postcount=1065)
Says that Guiri's being pinged by Meeko for limiting his posting is accurate. Says it's foolish to try to get more masons to claim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327592&postcount=1071)
Distinguishes Rysto from Meeko by saying that Rysto was just asking for clarification and back-up to a claim already made, not asking for more people to come out and claim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327597&postcount=1072)
Would encourage a real Mason to counterclaim a false-claiming Mason, but only after we hear from TexCat. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327633&postcount=1075)
Even if Rysto were Scum, the additional info he asked for would not be helpful to him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327638&postcount=1076)
Believes Cookies (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327662&postcount=1080)
Clarifies his post about wanting to hear from TexCat (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327680&postcount=1082)
Points out where Meeko thinks he's backpedaling, wants to hear from TexCat (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327704&postcount=1087)
Joke about fishing with dynamite (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327706&postcount=1088)
Clarifies joke, says that there are levels of subtlety in fishing. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12328446&postcount=1100)
Responds to something that Meeko said (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12330109&postcount=1108) (I've tried to read this back-and-forth about five times and still can't figure out WTF they're talking about here...again, it's like the teachers from Charlie Brown)
Says that Meeko is defending himself against a case that has yet to be made, and if he is Town, he should be more concerned about finding Scum than self-defense at this point. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12331649&postcount=1115)
Asks me if I think that his dealings with Meeko are the same as previous games. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12334169&postcount=1118)
Says he's not insulting Meeko and doesn't hate him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12334546&postcount=1121)
Asks if Rysto posted his full PM (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12337696&postcount=1141)
Says that Oredigger is being inconsistent by having the strategy of self-protecting every night but trying to avoid being the NK target. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12338154&postcount=1155)
Snips my post, reminds himself of the time that I complained that he didn't find me suspicious. Says that along with my one-off vote, that had me pinging his Scumdar. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12338443&postcount=1159)
Says my one-off vote doesn't ping him at all now that he looked at it. Says my pointing out his interactions with Meeko seems like something a Scum would want to do. Waits for my reaction. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12338453&postcount=1160)
Says that the train he was on with me just got stopped. Lists three reasons why. Then says it's back on the tracks. Says I could have been going for an early bus with Digger. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12338479&postcount=1161)
Points out that he was waffling a lot. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12338491&postcount=1162)
Says he had another thought about the Oredigger typo, but can't remember what it was. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12342907&postcount=1168)
Asks if TexCat was going to move his Oredigger vote before the Rysto counterclaim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12344394&postcount=1177)
****Day ends, MHaye, Zeriel, and Oredigger are dead.
Forgets if we can have strategy at Night (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12346779&postcount=1198)
Says that Oredigger's motivation for claiming was to expose the Doc and potentially get him lynched. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12346848&postcount=1201)
New updated voting history. Lists me, Meeko, and Zeriel with one other as his Scum list. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12346970&postcount=1206)
Fluff post about Meeko's job.

The one thing I want to point out is that he started his train of thought on me by reminding himself of the time I got upset that he didn't find me suspicious. If you go back and read the thread, that's not what I was pointing out at all. I was pointing out that he listed a bunch of people who had gotten votes, and said a few things about each of them...but the thing he said about me was not about me at all. It was about Tom Scud mentioning the "overnight thread." Now, at this point in the game, I didn't get too upset about ed repeatedly mischaracterizing what bothered me about that moment. But once Tom turned up Scum, it seems to me like ed was trying to link me to him.

He also said that my pointing out his interactions with Meeko was something Scum would do, but never said why he thought that. I'm kinda curious as to what the Scum motivation there would be. Without using post-hoc reasoning based on the fact that we now know Meeko was Town, can you explain why you thought that my bringing that up back then was scummy? I can see you thinking that if you thought I was trying to point out that you were ganging up on Town, but you thought Meeko was scummy then. So why would it be Scummy for me to point out that you were ganging up on someone who you thought was Scum?

[special ed]

Day/Night Two


Asks Freudian if anyone actually voted Meeko for the "odds" post regarding Kelly. Points out that he could either be Town making a bad argument or Scum who doesn't understand that it's best to let a buddy die to serve the greater good. Doesn't vote Meeko but says he's pinging him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12274624&postcount=659)
Throws out the possibility that Meeko and Kelly could be masons (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12274654&postcount=662)
Hopes that someone who didn't have a role identified at death is vanilla. Is fairly certain at least peeker was, because he didn't claim a power role. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12274919&postcount=665)
Lots of smilies. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275081&postcount=670)
Says that Meeko made an OMGUS vote, attacks his outline line by line. Says that the case against Meeko isn't rock solid, but there's meat to it. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275116&postcount=671)
More snark against Meeko (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275294&postcount=673)
"The meat is that you came out and handwaved the case against Kelly." (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275302&postcount=676)
Tells Meeko that he's mischaracterizing the case against him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275311&postcount=677)
Asks Meeko a bunch of questions. Explains the difference between a smudge and an accusation. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275338&postcount=679)
Says that Meeko is confusing cases with proof. Points out more misrepresentations that Meeko is making. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12276014&postcount=689)
Is unsure how Meeko concluded that ed was saying Meeko was Scum because he used facts and logic and tried to investigate slips. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12276127&postcount=695)
Says it's hard to determine motivation behind a post. Asks Meeko why he's voting for Freudian when odds are she's Town too. Says that Freudian could be voting for Meeko because she knows it's a mislynch. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12276143&postcount=697)
Says he'll let go the Meeko arguments. Doesn't particularly think Meeko is Scum, just thinks he gets overly defensive when questioned, and is trying to help point out where his logic goes haywire. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12276179&postcount=701)
Asks Mahaloth what he's contributing to the thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12283187&postcount=752)
Doesn't know what the case against OAOW is. Is pinged heavily by Jimmy. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12284934&postcount=765)
Spells out what he thinks Jimmy's case against OAOW is, then asks him to clarify if he's gotten it wrong. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285002&postcount=767)
Argues with Jimmy about his case, asks what OAOW's scum motivation is. Asks for comments from the other OAOW voters. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285297&postcount=778)
In response to Freudian, says: "So, you argue that someone did something because they are Scum....and then when pointed out there's little Scum motivation to do so....your response is, well, just because they aren't Scum for my reason doesn't mean they aren't Scum is kinda foolish, no?" (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285345&postcount=784)
Asks for opinion from everyone else on Tom's case against Freudian (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285654&postcount=793)
Says he wasn't asking for Freudian's opinion on the case against her. Says that he's not necessarily going to hold her weak cases against her. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285956&postcount=799)
Says that Freudian's vote pattern is opportunistic and her cases are weak. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12286006&postcount=800)
Corrects that he meant OAOW and not Oredigger in previous post. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12286042&postcount=801)
Is evidently puzzled by something OAOW said. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12286784&postcount=808)
Accepts Oredigger's reasoning in his OAOW vote. Asks what he thinks OAOW was trying to hide. Says that Freudian made a case against Red but couldn't be bothered to figure out who else was voting for him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287460&postcount=812)
Asks Jimmy for post numbers of things OAOW was ignoring when making his vote. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287719&postcount=818)
Says that Mahaloth was not the first to call OAOW on the thing that Ed was evidently puzzled about. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287723&postcount=819)
Is set for 200 posts per page so the game is only on page 5 for him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287840&postcount=824) (Lucky ed--this post is on page 21 for me)
Asks Jimmy if a comment he made to Mahaloth is referring to another game. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287857&postcount=827)
Makes comments about each player. Is most suspicious of Mahaloth, OAOW, and Freudian, not in that order. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12288391&postcount=838)
Says that nothing I've done has really pinged him...yet (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289053&postcount=843)*
Is concerned that I seem upset that he didn't comment about me. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289233&postcount=845)
Says again that he doesn't find anything out of the ordinary about me (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289754&postcount=849)*
Is willing to chalk Tom's "overnight thread' comment up to a mistake. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289755&postcount=850)
Starts it up with Meeko again, about the odds issue. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12290599&postcount=858)
Votes Freudian for poor cases and bandwagon-hopping. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12290643&postcount=861)
Doesn't like my vote on OAOW (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12291047&postcount=879)
Links back to his case against Freudian (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12291917&postcount=884)
***End of Day Two. OAOW dies.
Only one Night post by ed, it's fluff.

The big thing that jumps out at me upon re-read is something I starred--ed says that nothing I've done has pinged him...yet. Keep in mind that he ended the Day before with a vote on me! Now, Day Two was probably my worst Day of this game in terms of participation and motivation--I forgot who I was voting for on Day One too, and admitted as much in the thread. But you don't see me on Day Two saying that nothing Oredigger had done so far had pinged me, either. ed, OTOH, goes out of his way to say that I had yet to ping him and that he found nothing out of the ordinary about me. Very strange comments to be made about someone you voted for the Day before! I really wish I would have caught this earlier.

I post so much that of course there are going to be inconsistencies. Sure, I voted for you on day 1 with a weak case. Then I made comments on the cases of Day 2, and I commented on what I saw as the case against you on that Day, and didn't see much. There was much more going on that was noteworthy. Meeko's handwaving, Mahaloth's non-particpation while posting,

All the discussion on day 2 in regards to you centered around Tom's comment. I didn't think too much of it.

As for the comment that I didn't like your vote on OAOW (near the end of Day 2), that did slightly miss the point. The point was that I didn't like the FOS/Smudge you gave me for forcing a tie which in this game isn't really a tie since there's an obvious built in tie-breaker.

Plus, you've pointed out that I can't count. I'm ashamed. :smack:

1 odd thing I find interesting. You say now that you wish that you had discovered my vote for you and later non-ping earlier. I must say, I would venture that if you were Scum, you probably would have remembered that I had voted for you. But you're right, you didn't comment on it at all back then, did you?

unvote Drain
vote Mahaloth

[special ed]

Revotes Oredigger. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12326338&postcount=1037)
Says that Meeko is fishing for an additional Mason claim, and that he is capable of changing the way he posts when he is Scum. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327516&postcount=1065)
Says that Guiri's being pinged by Meeko for limiting his posting is accurate. Says it's foolish to try to get more masons to claim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327592&postcount=1071)
Distinguishes Rysto from Meeko by saying that Rysto was just asking for clarification and back-up to a claim already made, not asking for more people to come out and claim. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327597&postcount=1072)
Would encourage a real Mason to counterclaim a false-claiming Mason, but only after we hear from TexCat. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327633&postcount=1075)
Even if Rysto were Scum, the additional info he asked for would not be helpful to him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327638&postcount=1076)
Believes Cookies (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327662&postcount=1080)
Clarifies his post about wanting to hear from TexCat (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327680&postcount=1082)
Points out where Meeko thinks he's backpedaling, wants to hear from TexCat (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327704&postcount=1087)
Joke about fishing with dynamite (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327706&postcount=1088)
Clarifies joke, says that there are levels of subtlety in fishing. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12328446&postcount=1100)
Responds to something that Meeko said (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12330109&postcount=1108) (I've tried to read this back-and-forth about five times and still can't figure out WTF they're talking about here...again, it's like the teachers from Charlie Brown)
Says that Meeko is defending himself against a case that has yet to be made, and if he is Town, he should be more concerned about finding Scum than self-defense at this point. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12331649&postcount=1115)
Asks me if I think that his dealings with Meeko are the same as previous games. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12334169&postcount=1118)
Says he's not insulting Meeko and doesn't hate him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12334546&postcount=1121)
Asks if Rysto posted his full PM (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12337696&postcount=1141)
Says that Oredigger is being inconsistent by having the strategy of self-protecting every night but trying to avoid being the NK target. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12338154&postcount=1155)
Snips my post, reminds himself of the time that I complained that he didn't find me suspicious. Says that along with my one-off vote, that had me pinging his Scumdar. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12338443&postcount=1159)
Says my one-off vote doesn't ping him at all now that he looked at it. Says my pointing out his interactions with Meeko seems like something a Scum would want to do. Waits for my reaction. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12338453&postcount=1160)
Says that the train he was on with me just got stopped. Lists three reasons why. Then says it's back on the tracks. Says I could have been going for an early bus with Digger. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12338479&postcount=1161)
Points out that he was waffling a lot. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12338491&postcount=1162)
Says he had another thought about the Oredigger typo, but can't remember what it was. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12342907&postcount=1168)
Asks if TexCat was going to move his Oredigger vote before the Rysto counterclaim (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12344394&postcount=1177)
****Day ends, MHaye, Zeriel, and Oredigger are dead.
Forgets if we can have strategy at Night (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12346779&postcount=1198)
Says that Oredigger's motivation for claiming was to expose the Doc and potentially get him lynched. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12346848&postcount=1201)
New updated voting history. Lists me, Meeko, and Zeriel with one other as his Scum list. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12346970&postcount=1206)
Fluff post about Meeko's job.

The one thing I want to point out is that he started his train of thought on me by reminding himself of the time I got upset that he didn't find me suspicious. If you go back and read the thread, that's not what I was pointing out at all. I was pointing out that he listed a bunch of people who had gotten votes, and said a few things about each of them...but the thing he said about me was not about me at all. It was about Tom Scud mentioning the "overnight thread." Now, at this point in the game, I didn't get too upset about ed repeatedly mischaracterizing what bothered me about that moment. But once Tom turned up Scum, it seems to me like ed was trying to link me to him.

From your agitation, I assumed you were upset that there was no comment about you. I'm surprised that you now say you weren't upset. You kept bringing it up even after I apologized for not being pinged by you.

He also said that my pointing out his interactions with Meeko was something Scum would do, but never said why he thought that. I'm kinda curious as to what the Scum motivation there would be. Without using post-hoc reasoning based on the fact that we now know Meeko was Town, can you explain why you thought that my bringing that up back then was scummy? I can see you thinking that if you thought I was trying to point out that you were ganging up on Town, but you thought Meeko was scummy then. So why would it be Scummy for me to point out that you were ganging up on someone who you thought was Scum?

In the post you link, I don't say it's something Scum would do. I just indicate that it's interesting. However, often the 2 are synonymous. In fact, in every case except when they aren't (see my most recent post before this one). The Scum motivation would be to distract the Town and focus on the interaction between Meeko and myself. Granted at that point I was suspicious of Meeko (that was clear) but I wasn't 100% sure. Also, I wouldn't put it past a Scum to point it out since Meeko and I have a hsitory of arguing even when we are both Scum.

[Drain Bead]

Votes for me without commentary (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12354196&postcount=1225)
Says he thinks my Day One vote on Oredigger was to get cred later. Says I attacked Oredigger for his Chronos vote without mentioning that I was voting for Chronos too. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12355726&postcount=1229)
Updated voting history. Says he thinks one of MHaye or Zeriel was Scum, leans toward Zeriel (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12355738&postcount=1230)
Says that he could be wrong about Zeriel, wrong about me, or we were Scumfighting earlier in the game. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12360865&postcount=1244)
Says that he made a typo on the LyLo situation in his updated voting history post. Asks me if I think he was displaying PIS (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12360880&postcount=1245)
Asks Meeko if he thinks I'm Scum because I'm able to defend myself. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12362505&postcount=1250)
Makes a Meeko-esque outline of his case against me. Again says that I complained about him not making a case against me. Says my Day One case against Oredigger was weak. Says that I never mentioned I voted for Chronos when I was attacking Oredigger for his Chronos vote. Says I didn't pay attention to the Day One case against peeker. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12363833&postcount=1255)
Says that just because he and Meeko came to the same conclusion it doesn't mean they agree. Reiterates his case against me. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12364392&postcount=1258)
Says he was wrong about me not bringing up the fact that I was voting for Chronos when I attacked Oredigger. Asks me to lay out my case against Tom (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12365028&postcount=1263)
Says his Day One vote on me was weak, but now that more has occurred, he feels he should bring it up in his case on me. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12365560&postcount=1265)
Can now see the case against Tom, thinks it deserves a re-read (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12368217&postcount=1272)
Says the time left in the Day, says it's given us a lot to digest. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12369516&postcount=1282)
Understands that the game can get stressful. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12370106&postcount=1291)
Votes for Tom (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12370112&postcount=1292)
Metagame comment about how sach doesn't fully buy into jsexton's points (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12370236&postcount=1296)
Says that my role isn't necessarily good (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12370851&postcount=1300)
Semi-agrees with my analysis of who is the remaining Scum except he thinks that I am Scum instead of him. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12371058&postcount=1302)
****Day ends, Tom is dead
Says Digger claimed George Washington but was only revealed as President. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12374076&postcount=1314)
Thinks Meeko is Scum because of his reaction to the Rysto/Digger claims, and the mason claims. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12374096&postcount=1315)
Night ends[/spoiler]

After five Days, one major pattern I'm noticing is that ed rarely interacted with Tom. About the only mentions of Tom he had, through five Days and two close races is when he brought up the "overnight thread" kerfluffle in conjunction with me, and when he asked other people about the cases against him. He never really brought him up himself, and didn't vote him on his last Day until after he flamed out. Nothing solid, just a data point.

And on that note, I've spent my whole damned afternoon getting no work done, and I have to go home now. I only have a few pages left to go in the thread, so I'll get it finished tonight.

[Drain Bead]

Damn it, I knew I'd screw up a tag in there somewhere. At least it was a spoiler tag and not a URL.

Also, there was one previous mention of Tom earlier, when he asks the rest of us what we thought about Tom's case against Freudian.

[Drain Bead]

From your agitation, I assumed you were upset that there was no comment about you. I'm surprised that you now say you weren't upset. You kept bringing it up even after I apologized for not being pinged by you.

Well, that's not really what I was saying. What I was saying is that at the time, I wasn't too bothered by the actual linkage between me and Tom, but after he was revealed as Scum, it became a lot more bothersome.

I was a bit bothered that you were commenting on the cases against each player, but the thing you mentioned about me was really about Tom. It wasn't that you weren't making a case against me, it was that you were linking something that had nothing to do with me to me. Which wasn't incredibly awful at the time, but became worse when I found out he was Scum. Does that explain it better?


In the post you link, I don't say it's something Scum would do. I just indicate that it's interesting. However, often the 2 are synonymous. In fact, in every case except when they aren't (see my most recent post before this one). The Scum motivation would be to distract the Town and focus on the interaction between Meeko and myself. Granted at that point I was suspicious of Meeko (that was clear) but I wasn't 100% sure. Also, I wouldn't put it past a Scum to point it out since Meeko and I have a hsitory of arguing even when we are both Scum.

What's that last line supposed to mean, exactly?

[Drain Bead]

Okay, now I'm leaving work. For real. Seriously. I promise.

[special ed]

Well, that's not really what I was saying. What I was saying is that at the time, I wasn't too bothered by the actual linkage between me and Tom, but after he was revealed as Scum, it became a lot more bothersome.

I was a bit bothered that you were commenting on the cases against each player, but the thing you mentioned about me was really about Tom. It wasn't that you weren't making a case against me, it was that you were linking something that had nothing to do with me to me. Which wasn't incredibly awful at the time, but became worse when I found out he was Scum. Does that explain it better?

I wasn't too concerned about the 'overnight' thread comment. In hindsight, I may have been wrong, since Tom flipped Scum. Of course, that's not a point in your favor since Tom was talking about your post in the overnight thread :dubious:

In voting for you, Zeriel was replying to Tom. All that kerfluffle about the overnight thread was not a data point I was going to use at the time.

That was my comment when I got to your name in my copy/pasted list of people who had votes.


I'm not sure how I can make that more clear. That post was just a summary of my thoughts. Potentially useful for someone else, but more designed to give me something to go back to and find my thoughts at the time. At that time, I wasn't too concerned about you.

Your defensiveness to my stand along with a few other things got me to change my mind.

I've changed my mind a lot in this game. I've even been wrong. Frequently.

I'm really not sure why it's such a big deal to you that I didn't have anything to really say about you on Day 2. I'm not sure how much better I can explain that.








In the post you link, I don't say it's something Scum would do. I just indicate that it's interesting. However, often the 2 are synonymous. In fact, in every case except when they aren't (see my most recent post before this one). The Scum motivation would be to distract the Town and focus on the interaction between Meeko and myself. Granted at that point I was suspicious of Meeko (that was clear) but I wasn't 100% sure. Also, I wouldn't put it past a Scum to point it out since Meeko and I have a hsitory of arguing even when we are both Scum.



What's that last line supposed to mean, exactly?

The last line? IN Conspiracy 3, Meeko and I argued extensively on Day 1. For me, it was an attempt to build some credibility for one of us if the other died.

In the end, it got us both killed and, I fear, made Meeko think I'm sadistic and hateful.

So, the last line means, Even had Meeko flipped Scum, I wouldn't have expected my arguing with him to have bought me any credibility, and, in fact, I might have expceted Scum to point that out.

It's all meaningless though since he didn't flip Scum.


So, basically, it means this:

Even if Meeko were Scum, as I suspected, I wouldn't put it past another Scum to point out my arguing with him in either a) an attempt to get me lynched instead or b) remind others of Conspiracy and point a finger at me after Meeko flipped.

Really, I'm arguing hypotheticals here since you asked what the ptoential Scum motivation could have been. I thought it was obvious that others in the past have used the "look at those people argue..." to distract Town from meaningful activities.

Though, I've also seen it used by Town to get distractive people to shut up. (But you didn't ask me what the Town motivations might have been)

[Drain Bead]

Votes Meeko[/b]
[url=http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12383398&postcount=1329]Points out that Meeko falls victim to OMGUS regardless of his alignment. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12381060&postcount=1322)
Expands on Rysto's vote history post by doing a pre-Tom and post-Tom claim vote count. Points out that my recent play makes him think better of me. Notices that Tom, Meeko, and I were each voting for one another prior to Tom's implosion. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12383443&postcount=1330)
Snark on Meeko (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12383580&postcount=1333)
Reiterates case against Meeko. Is voting him because he voted for Rysto instead of Oredigger, is posting less as the game goes on, fished for a third Mason claim, doubted that Tom's Scum claim was true, made weak votes on Freudian, TexCat, and me, and wasn't commenting as much on other people's cases. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12383657&postcount=1335)
Corrrects the Day that Meeko voted for TexCat in the previous post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12383662&postcount=1336)
Points out that Meeko thinks that both ed and I are Scum, but wants to work out a voting bloc with us. Reiterates his case against Meeko again, more briefly. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12385129&postcount=1341)
Explains to Meeko that it's best that Scum NKs a vanilla. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12387825&postcount=1347)
Is pinged by Mahaloth's trust-list because he is neutral or positive on everyone but the top lynch leader, doesn't go into any great detail, and includes claimed Town without mentioning claims. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12387839&postcount=1349)
Accepts my explanation of what I thought Meeko was saying in a previous post. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12387844&postcount=1350)
Gives his own trust list. Says he's Town, is unsure about Red, thinks I'm Town, thinks Meeko and Mahaloth are Scum. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12387850&postcount=1351)
Compares the Mahaloth/Tom interaction to me and Freudian in Colorless (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12388078&postcount=1354)
Doesn't like the r-word (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12389661&postcount=1362)
Is not sure why Meeko thinks that people are saying they're sure the person they are voting for is Scum. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12394441&postcount=1378)
Says that Meeko's claim that Scum is dominating is a distraction. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12394478&postcount=1380)
Realizes that Meeko was talking about Rysto/Oredigger when he questioned why Town was sure that they were voting for Scum. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12394491&postcount=1382)
Spells out scenarios for the rest of the game. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12394526&postcount=1383)
****Day ends, Meeko dies
Swears, is glad we haven't lost. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12399026&postcount=1394)
Is reluctant to discuss if there's anything else Meeko could have done. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12399926&postcount=1398)
****Night ends, Rysto dies

I can't really hold the Meeko case against ed. Damn near everyone, except Cookies (who is evidently psychic!) thought that Meeko was Scum. I know I was damned certain of it--and had Cookies not been confirmed Town, I would have really wondered about the one-off. Ed's case against Meeko was good, except Meeko does some crazy shit, and this game was no exception.

[Drain Bead]

Thanks for explaining that--I didn't know the history.

As for the first part, I'm not sure what else I can say to get you to understand that my issue wasn't the fact that you weren't making a case against me, so I'll just let everyone else figure out if that whole thing means anything to them.

[Drain Bead]

I am definitely not going to have time to do another one of these. I'd love to see others pitch in to do a WOW on our other unconfirmeds.

[special ed]

This almost seems easy since I only have 8 pages to go through ;)

Mahaloth Pre-Day 1 (5 posts)


Post 18 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12240179&postcount=18) Is in
Post 24 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12240398&postcount=24) ask if the game is Gasterd
Post 25 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12240399&postcount=25) Notes that it's newbie friendly
Post 31 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12241044&postcount=31) Who cares, the roles aren't even out yet?
Post 62 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12241918&postcount=62) we have 20 players!


Day 1 (24 posts)

Post 134 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243791&postcount=134) Confirming
Post 148 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12243915&postcount=148) is OK with name claiming can use a random list or sachertorte's list
Post 162 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12244222&postcount=162) claims Samuel Johnson (Critic)
Post 194 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12245548&postcount=194) lists claims so far
Post 197 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12245623&postcount=197) updates list
post 224 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12246426&postcount=224) asks if peeker has claimed or not
post 229 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12247545&postcount=229) encourages peeker to claim
post 256 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12249227&postcount=256) well, the claim is mostly over
Post 260 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12249434&postcount=260) comment on his earlier list
post 275 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12249981&postcount=275) notes TexCat's list, asks if everyone has claimed
post 276 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12249984&postcount=276) questions if peeker has claimed
post 285 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12251619&postcount=285) questions Meeko how he knows that the Scum know the other Scum names (picks up on PIS before Ed did even!)
post 294 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12251778&postcount=294) backs off on his comments towards Meeko since others have stated it's common practice, but still doesn't think he deserves a vote
post 299 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12251844&postcount=299) completely retracts his comment towards Meeko
post 305 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12252015&postcount=305) fluff
post 319 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12252466&postcount=319) peeker is being peeker
post 336 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12253532&postcount=336) more peeker is being peekr, don't poke at him
post 348 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12254486&postcount=348) more comments to stop the comments on his initial questioning of Meeko
post 424 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257703&postcount=424) long day, will comment later
post 428 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12257758&postcount=428) thinkis people should stop poking peeker and Meeko, isn't pinged by either but wouldn't be surprised if Scum are poking them
post 482 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12260951&postcount=482) thinks either Chronos or peeker is Scum, votes peeker after pointing out Chronos' comment about peeker 'safe soft claiming' with the video earlier. (WHAT? He said he wasn't pinged by him earlier...and now this? And, it sets up a classic Scum move. Either A or B is Scum, let's lynch A, then we lynch B toMorrow...and you get 2 Town
post 500 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261456&postcount=500) questions Meeko on the Keely is likely Town thing
post 521 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12262172&postcount=521) ditto
post 597 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265793&postcount=597) Can we discuss strategy at Night?


Night 1 (4 posts)

post 616 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265919&postcount=616) was witch Town?
post 635 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12266998&postcount=635) fluff
post 644 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12268911&postcount=644) comments on a companion document to label Day starts and ends (Red then started one, but didn't maintain it)
post 648 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12270299&postcount=648) thanks Red


Day 2 (11 posts)

post 669 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12275042&postcount=669) we should assume both dead are Vanilla Town
post 728 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12279653&postcount=728) asks what Drains slip was. Thinks Tom's "overnight thread" isn't a big deal
post 732 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12279977&postcount=732) thanks Rysto for pointing out that Drains issue was FOS'ing "everyone" who voted peeker (for some reason I've forgotten) was really an FOS of 1 person
post 733 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12280354&postcount=733) thinks Zeriel has made a good case. Thinks Drains comments are Odd. Still isn't the least bit suspicious of Tom's comment. snarks at Ed and Meeko
post 738 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12281646&postcount=738) comments on why what Drain said could be Scum motivated. Is dismayed by the lack of participation
post 749 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12282952&postcount=749) more ranting on the low participation
post 753 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12283207&postcount=753) in response to Ed asking him what he's contributed aside from a comment on the Drain kerfluffle, he says "Anything I can, specialed. There is little to comment on. Encouraging people to get out here and speak is certainly a good point and worth saying. Certainly better than bantering with Meeko again(still). "
post 786 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285505&postcount=786) questions Tom for voting for Freduian because Freudian is voting for anti-Town noise.
post 787 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285530&postcount=787) Votes Tom
post 815 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287547&postcount=815) unvotes Tom votes Oneandonly because oneandonly pointed out they might be a good lynch
----Mahaloth gets a vote from story for much of the preceding and the defense of Feudian---
post 836 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12288256&postcount=836) defends his vote for oneandonly, takes note of story's vote


Night 2 (0 posts)



Day 3 (5 posts)

post 909 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12299188&postcount=909) there must be a Vigilante
post 911 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12299211&postcount=911) comments that his list didn't have storyteller, when Ed noted that story's claim didn't match his reveal
post 931 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12300108&postcount=931) 1. good chice, Vig. 2. story voted me, has no idea why. 3. was wrong about oneandonly, therefore Tom must be Scum for his case on Freudian. Votes Tom.
post 998 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12314206&postcount=998) day is ending in 24 hours. still likes vote on Tom, though Oredigger also looks good. Doesn't get case on Chronos
post 1001 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12315144&postcount=1001) notes tie between Tom and Chronos
---an interesting aside. Jimmy was very suspicious of Mahaloth at this point. In fact, so worried that he felt the case against Tom was trumped up, so he put Chronos into the lead----


Night 3 (0 posts)



Day 4 (7 posts)

post 1031 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12315144&postcount=1031)Votes Tom
post 1042 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12326615&postcount=1042) wants it on the record that he's voted for Tom for 2 Days (despite moving to oneandonly on Day 2)
post 1126 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12336061&postcount=1126) asks Oredigger who he has protected after Oredigger claims Doctor
post 1133 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12336384&postcount=1133) unvotes Tom. Still thinks Tom is Scum, but thinks a better vote is Rysto or Oredigger. Hasn't figured out which but is leaning Oredigger
post 1135 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12336494&postcount=1135) votes Oredigger after the obvious is pointed out that Rysto had no Scum motivation to claim but oredigger did.
post 1144 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12337757&postcount=1144) not sure what this means. don't think it's important
post 1179 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12344659&postcount=1179) again reminds everyone that he's voted for Tom.


Night 4 (5 posts)

post 1200 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12346835&postcount=1200) good for us. wonders why oredigger claimed Doc
post 1204 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12346906&postcount=1204) answers that we can discuss strategy at Night
post 1207 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12347150&postcount=1207) answers Ed who was wondering why MHaye and Zeriel were removed when they had voted
post 1220 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12353434&postcount=1220) Census fluff
post 1223 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12353924&postcount=1223) more census fluff


Day 5 (4 posts)

post 1232 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12358102&postcount=1232) votes Tom
post 1273 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12368473&postcount=1273) comments that he's participated only a little because he's already voted and there isn't much to comment on. Liked Red's summary on Tom
post 1285 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12371747&postcount=1285) is not Captain Me too. is busy. ins't talkative. votes early. comments on a question from Guiri regarding understanding story's vote but 'not getting it'
post 1303 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12371747&postcount=1303) was right about Tom awhile ago


Night 5 (1 post)

post 1318 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12374386&postcount=1318) comments briefly on the ongoing discussion of Meeko


Day 6 (7 posts)

post 1343 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12387474&postcount=1343) his summary of everyone so far. where he includes our confirmed Town and finds no one but Meeko suspicious. He'll get heat for this
post 1346 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12387748&postcount=1346) oops, shouldn't have included confirmed Town in his list, especially saying he had little read on them.
post 1361 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12389496&postcount=1361) is not apathetic. is playing pro_town. points out yet again his vote for Tom for 3 Days, and then makes a Scum wouldn't do that kind of busing argument
post 1363 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12389701&postcount=1363) r-word fluff
post 1366 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12390198&postcount=1366)gay fluff
post 1369 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12391474&postcount=1369) no read on Red. votes Meeko
post 1384 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12394800&postcount=1384) 1. Voted for Tom and kept his vote on him for 3 Days (note: except for the 2 times he didn't keep his vote on him!) 2. Scum spread their arguments out on people, and he hasn't done that. In fact, he has almost no cases against anyone. (note: except Tom, see preceding)


Night 6 (0 posts)



Day 7 up until now (8 posts)

post 1406 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12405686&postcount=1406) hopes Rysto wasn't waiting until 1 PM to PM his protection. has no idea who to kill toDay.
post 1409 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12405998&postcount=1409) defends himself from ym comments about him reading the Scum thread. makes his case against himself like I'd requested. his case is 1. forgot cookies was confirmed and 2. hasn't participated much, but (Wait for it.....wait for it....) he voted Tom a lot! and he was Right!
post 1410 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12405999&postcount=1410) comments on my request for people to make the cases against themselves.
post 1412 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12406010&postcount=1412) positive thoughts fluff
post 1417 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12406161&postcount=1417) seems to understand my comments about the Scum thread and an early Day start.
post 1437 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12410598&postcount=1437)has no idea what to do! doesn't really think Ed is scummy for one bad idea.
post 1445 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12412477&postcount=1445) (note, you'll like this one) has found plenty of people suspicious!! and, the obligatory "and was an early voter to get Tom, who(if you have forgotten) turned out to be scum. "
post 1454 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12412910&postcount=1454) isn't jumpy is accurate (in reply to Red's comment about 1445)

[special ed]

This one is easier and won't even need spoilers

Pre-game (2 posts)
Post 17 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12240172&postcount=17) in
post 85 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12242752&postcount=85) confirmed

Day 1 (11 posts)
post 159 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12244131&postcount=159) claims Ogden Nash (poet)
post 302 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12251906&postcount=302) isn't putting much into the typos
post 312 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12252290&postcount=312) after the peeker claim/not claim debacle, chimes in to tell peeker its better to be clear
post 316 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12252434&postcount=316) votes TexCat because TexCat was suspicious of peeker for leaving out the parenthetical
post 385 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12255400&postcount=385) addresses the votes against him. he clarifies that his vote against TexCat is because texCat is voting for a reason Red can't see Scum doing. Why would Scum draw attention to themselves?
post 395 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12256376&postcount=395) clarifies again he meant "Doing that does not make one Scum" and not "Scum wouldn't do that"
post 510 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12261961&postcount=510) was once Scum politician 2 games in a row
post 599 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265803&postcount=599) moving vote won't matter. is pinged by drain's smudge comments on the peeker train. doesn't support the votes on Chronos
post 608 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265853&postcount=608) appears to agree with Ed that Kelly seemed to be posting as he caught up
post 610 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265864&postcount=610) NETA to correct spelling
post 612 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12265886&postcount=612)more comments on Kelly and catching up, I think

Night 1 (2 posts)
post 636 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12267067&postcount=636) fluff
post 647 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12269657&postcount=647) the document to keep track of day starts and ends

Day 2 (3 posts)
post 727 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12279624&postcount=727) comments on an interaction in cecil pond. thinks NAF's case on Kelly was rash, but that doesn't mean Scum killed him. tried to understand Meeko. question Zeriel as to why he's voting Drain
post 835 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287957&postcount=835) trouble posting. is pinged by several, only metions freudian. Freudian is voting on bandwagons for weak reasons. votes Freudian
post 851 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12289912&postcount=851) questons story regarding the case against Mahaloth. asks what opportunistic voting is questions texcat's assertion that Jimmy was against name claiming

Night 2 (0 posts)

Day 3 (1 post)
post 974 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12307486&postcount=974) 1. maybe story was cop, maybe not 2. texcat's assertion that Freudian may have been Scum even though being blue? ridiculous 3. is pinged that Zeriel is voting Tom based on a coin flip. Thinks Zeriel may fear that staying on Drain too long will make him appear Scummy (kinda reminds me of Mahaloth and Tom) 4. doesn't but the case against Tom 5. doesn't like Jimmy's case on Meeko 6. votes Chronos for a smudge and bluster in regards to his suspicion of guiri. (no, really, go read it)

Night 3 (0 posts)

Day 4 (8 posts)
post 1033 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12326139&postcount=1033) questions Rysto's vote of Cookies. asks Meeko to recap the case on Texcat
post 1036 clarifies himself to guiri in regards to the 'scum wouldn't do that"/"that doesn't look scummy" issue. asks how he is a clean noser.
post 1040 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12326469&postcount=1040) responds to guiri's reply. (go check out guiri's reply in post 1038 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12326356&postcount=1038)) clarifies the smudge and bluster and says he's suspicious of oredigger and texcat (has he commented on oredigger before, I may have missed it)
post 1084 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12326356&postcount=1084) discussion of the term fishing
post 1091 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327738&postcount=1091) questions meeko on a couple of odd points in an outline
post 1092 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327738&postcount=1092) more comments on fishing
post 1095 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12327797&postcount=1095) comments to Meeko regarding why is't not needed for a 3rd mason to claim
post 1136 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12336691&postcount=1136) votes Oredigger after the claim/counterclaim
post 1139 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12337219&postcount=1139)responds cookies on the assertion that 95% of the time the inital claimant gets lynched in a counter claim situation. basically made up the number as far as I can tell.

Night 4 (0 posts)

Day 5 (3 posts)
post 1266 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12365636&postcount=1266) acknowledges the poke for not participating
post 1268 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12368108&postcount=1268) 1. dismisses Meeko's case on drain 2. Votes Tom for several reasons
post 1269 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12368163&postcount=1269) comments to Drain that it wasn't 2 of the 4 previous Tom voters repeated, when 1 of them was dead. it was technically 2 of 3.

Night 5 (2 posts)
post 1310 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12373576&postcount=1310) comments that scum meeko looks like town meeko, only scum meeko is less likely to engage a scummate
post 1317 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12374282&postcount=1317) more comments on Meeko's gameplay

Day 6 (3 posts)
post 1325 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12383324&postcount=1325) more comments on Meeko's gameplay
post 1331 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12383478&postcount=1331) isn't really defending Meeko, jsut trying to find the case in the comments. Thinks Meeko is Scum in part because of the vote for Rysto over Oredigger
post 1352 comments on the other players and a vote on Meeko. Meeko looks Scummy for trying to vote iin a bloc with people he thinks are Scum. Ed and Meeko aren't likely both Scum. Drain is Scummy because she's hard selling the Meeko lynch. Thought Mahaloth was Town until the post where he found no one scummy.
post 1370 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12391569&postcount=1370) fluff

Night 6 (0 posts)

Day 7 (8 posts)
post 1413 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12406116&postcount=1413) hopes Cookies has a reason for the vote. Doesn't like the make a case against yourself idea.
post 1419 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12406208&postcount=1419) doesn't trust Ed. has been almost burned by Ed before
post 1425 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12406883&postcount=1425) responds to many comments from me.(just go read it, it's not that long ago)
post 1426 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12406902&postcount=1426) NETA
post 1431 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12408117&postcount=1431) makes brief summaries about each unconfirmed player. 1. Mahaloth seems to be apathetic town, but bought into Ed's make your own case plan which is scummy. 2. Drain...links her to Tom a lot. (go read it) 3. Special Ed has spent the game building Town rep. most scummy thing is suggesting the own cases idea
post 1441 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12412393&postcount=1441) more back and forth with Ed
post 1443 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12412410&postcount=1443) votes Drain
post 1447 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12412486&postcount=1447) jumpy comment to Mahaloth and correction comment to Ed

[special ed]

I'm still putting my cases together, but I've been quite clear all day that the two votes I've placed have been placeholders. Don't you think it is more insightful to look at the big picture than just how the posts and votes have gone toDay?


The prosecution rests, your honor.

No, seriously, I need to rest.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'm in he middle of combing through Drain's posts and so far she is coming up pretty clean, while the Mahaloth posts I've encountered just in proximity to Drain's are not looking good for him.

I've already wasted too much time to hold my comments until I'm done, so I'm going to dole out what I have and keep going.



Thoughts on Drain with Mahaloth tangents...

Drain went willingly and without much comment into the name claim. Her only question was wondering how the order would be determined.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12249411&postcount=258 - here Drain makes a minor smear at my previous incarnation, Kelly, for making a poorly justified bandwagon vote, but also allows for the possibility that Kelly's status as a noob may be the root cause as opposed to scummitude.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12254360&postcount=347 - here, Drain comes to Meeko's defense and votes against a scummy Oredigger.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12277146&postcount=709 - here Drain keeps the idea of a scummy Tom slipping on his Night Thread comment on the table.

<Mahaloth tangent #1> http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12279653&postcount=728 - here Mahaloth comes about as close as possible to defending Tom's "slip" about the overnight thread. stating "I totally see what he meant there." This seems pretty blatant to me, but I'm one of those players who will often go out of my way to say things like "I had no problem parsing his alleged intent". But to _know_ what Tom meant?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12281256 - here I'm linking to a page instead of an individual post here, because there is an interesting exchange involving Drain, Mahaloth, and Zeriel between posts 733 and 748. This is where the blindspot that is Zeriel really sucks. My gut reaction to reading this exchange (with the hindsight about Peeker) is that Mahaloth and Zeriel could very easily be scum together. Regardless of their alignments, they both appear to be squeezing Drain here a bit. This basically counts as Mahaloth tangent #2 as well.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12285201&postcount=775 - here Drain brings up a very good point against Zeriel (who I am having a very hard time not reading as hostile to Town's best interests, and the amount of grief that Mhaye received from Tom through this section has me leaning toward a Town read on Mhaye).

<Mahaloth tangent #3> http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12287547&postcount=815 - at this point I'm not just reading the posts around Drain's posts, but rather scanning pages for posts from Drain or Mahaloth, and this one is another that does not bode well for Mahaloth. Moving his vote from Tom, where he'd slapped it for Tom's rather out-of-the-blue vote on Freudian (which, incidentally, Ed thought might have legs) onto One And Only Wanderers for making a suggestion that I have no problem seeing as a pro-town move.

At this point I have no problem moving my placeholder to Mahaloth.

Unvote Ed
Vote Mahaloth

Still subject to change, and I'm still re-hashing.

[Drain Bead]

I can get behind a Mahaloth lynch; he's running a close #2 behind ed for me right now.

[sachertorte]

Hi Kittens,

I'm back from the Happiest Place on Earth. I'm sad to say that there was no sign of Meeko down there; and now I see why. You bastards killed him, right in time for my vacation too. I did see Pocahontas milling about though. She was unusually cheery for someone who just lost a close friend. Kind of cold, but I guess she understands the circle of life.

I did see a raccoon playing a harmonica in Splash Mountain though. Does that count?

I'm not sure what the game state is right now, so I think it best for ShadowFacts to handle Today as well. Less chance of mistakes. Plus I have... work. :(

[ShadowFacts]

Hi Kittens,

I'm back from the Happiest Place on Earth. I'm sad to say that there was no sign of Meeko down there; and now I see why. You bastards killed him, right in time for my vacation too. I did see Pocahontas milling about though. She was unusually cheery for someone who just lost a close friend. Kind of cold, but I guess she understands the circle of life.

I did see a raccoon playing a harmonica in Splash Mountain though. Does that count?

I'm not sure what the game state is right now, so I think it best for ShadowFacts to handle Today as well. Less chance of mistakes. Plus I have... work. :(

Welcome back! Was it a small world after all?

[Mahaloth]

Well, I can't say I'm surprised about the votes going my way. I've had a severe bacterial infection in my throat and have barely been able to check in the last couple days(small "d").

At this point, based on the gameplay of toDay, I think Ed has really climbed up the suspicion list for me. I've been reading him as town the entire time and I even volunteered(and did go first) for his "self review" idea, but I also see what people mean by it being an opportunity for people, including ed, to go and find an easy argument to vote someone out. In fact, ed seems to have little argument behind his vote for me now.

Basically, I suspect Ed and Drain at this point and I would support a lynch of either.

I feel that with 24 hours left(give or take) in this Day, I do need to get a vote out, though.

People, at least think about it for a minute. I suspected, correctly, Tom from very early on in the game. I never jumped on a band wagon for him and came out against him nearly every Day until he was lynched. I was right about him being scum and because I had my vote out so early those Days, it lead to me having a lower post count for those days. I just never saw anyone more suspicious on a lot of those Days.

I do need to vote, as well. I have to survive and I think both Ed and Drain are scum.

Vote Ed

I'm willing to lynch Drain if that is how people feel, by the way.

[special ed]

Mahaloth
1. Ed *
2. Drain
3. Red

Drain
1. Ed
2. Mahaloth *
3. Red

Ed
1. Mahaloth *
2. Red
3. Drain

Red
1. Drain *
2. ????
3. ????

[special ed]

In fact, ed seems to have little argument behind his vote for me now.

*waves back*

oh, sorry, you were just handwaving the case against you, never mind.

I must admit I had missed you. It had been 39 hours since you posted in this thread. And it took me a while to figure that out since you had 25 posts to other threads. Though, I realize that is metagamey.

PS I hope you're feeling better.

[Drain Bead]

ed, I assume that's what people posted as suspect lists, but what are the stars?

[special ed]

ed, I assume that's what people posted as suspect lists, but what are the stars?

They were supposed to be where the votes currently were. I erroneously thought you'd moved your vote, but you just said you were willing to.

[Mahaloth]

*waves back*

oh, sorry, you were just handwaving the case against you, never mind.


No, I wasn't.

[special ed]

In fact, ed seems to have little argument behind his vote for me now.




oh, sorry, you were just handwaving the case against you, never mind.

No, I wasn't.


Maybe we have different definitions of handwaving. To me, handwaving is dismissing comments made by others with a quick little comment and without directly responding to the case.

No, granted, I didn't create a numbered list of my points in my case agsint you. I can do so. Here you go

1. Your participation in the game is extremely low. I'm not talking about post numbers, but I am talking about contributing to finding Scum.
2. Your post where you snuggled everyone except Meeko and even went so far as to pass judgment (albeit limited) on our confirmed Town players without so much as mentioning their confirmedness is the sign of either extremely apathetic Town or slightly bumbling Scum.
3. You comments on Day 1that you weren't pinged at all by peeker and Meeko and thought Scum might be picking on them was almost immediately followed by the assertion that one of Chronos and peeker are likely Scum and a vote on peeker.
4. Your comments on Day 2 bemoaning low participation despite your own low participation seem like Scum just commenting to make comments.
5. Your pointing out that you voted for Tom on 3 Days (before his claim) usually fails to mention that you unvoted him twice to vote for Town players. It also fails to mention that he was in no danger of being lynched any of those Days as the vote on the lynch leader compared to him was 8-0, 7-4, and 10-1 on each of those 3 Days.
***NEW*** 6. Your failure to respond with any defense to issues brought up by storyteller, Jimmy Chitwood, and now myself.
7. Your constant of how you voted for Tom before he claimed in your defense (see posts 1042, 1133, 1179, and 1285 before Tom's claim and posts 1303, 1361, 1984, 1409, and 1445 after Tom's claim)
8. Your defense that borders on 'scum wouldn't do this' in post 1361 and 1384 that fails to address any points against you.

There, is that better?

Now, turnabout is fair play, so I think In reading your vote post for me, I can summarize your case thusly:

1. Ed seemed Town, heck Mahaloth even agreed with his build your case on yourself, but now sees how that could be Scummy.
2. Ed and Drain are likely Scum.
3. Mahaloth need to vote
4. Mahaloth voted for Tom!
5. I'm still willing to lynch Drain though.

I'm sure I may have missed points you made in other posts, so feel free to clarify that for me.

In the meantime, if a case ever deserved a handwave, that's it. Hell, you didn't even take the time to 'me too' all the work Drain did.

[special ed]

Cookies, You do realize that with less than 24 hours left in the Day, the issue of your vote placement is very important. If there are 2 Scum left, that is (and seeing we've only lynched 2, it may be)

If your vote is on a Town player, the Scum can win by voting with you.
If your vote is on a Scum player, the Town players must have sufficient time to align with your vote or the Scum can still win.

Seems unfair, since randomly, you have a 50% chance of voting Scum while the Town players have 67%. But we're also at a stage that's far from random.

If there is but one Scum left, it doesn't matter as much.

[Mahaloth]

Ed's list is pathetic. It's just a fabricated case from minimal evidence that does not contain scum motivation. I've made mistakes as a townie and probably even contradicted myself(thinking one thing at a moment and then thinking the next later), but there is no scum motivation behind things I've done because I'm not scum. Even if I had been scum, I don't see any reason a scum would do any of the little bullet points Ed has listed.

I'll be honest. I have no idea who is scum and I think we're screwed.

I now have a nagging feeling that both Ed and I are town and we've been totally played.

However, and I want to win badly and I assume we are very close to both winning or losing. We've come to far and I will now, in order to hopefully persuade those other townies still remaining, respond to Ed's case point by point. Ed, if you are town, seriously re-consider. Everyone else, we can win this if we can just get our townie votes together on one scum.

Town, please think about this.

Ahem:

1. That's stupid. Complain that I keep mentioning it, but I found Tom and kept pecking at him daily until we succesfully lynched him. I admit low post count, but I have been contributing.

Heck, Red has contributed less and he's here not drawing your fire.

2. Right. I mentioned this stupid mistake in my review of myself. Nothing to say about it. If that is scum motivated, I don't see how it could be. Thanks for doing what people were saying, Ed; taking my own analysis and using it against me.

3. I don't remember Day 1 enough. I guess I didn't see a case and then did. Or I made a mistake in my wording.

4. I'll make a note for the next game. Don't encourage participation unless you are massively participating. I didn't know my own participation would be reduced. I still think I've contributed fairly well, though.

5. Why don't you go back to the 2 times I unvoted Tom and find my reasonings for doing so? I listed my reasons when I did. I didn't just unvote him randomly.

6. I've responded to cases against myself, though I didn't really see your case before you listed it out. This is just flat out not true, Ed.

7. Well, finding Tom and pushing his case and killing him is the best thing I've done this game. I do deserve credit for it. I found Kelly in the last game and ended up getting lynched before everyone came to their senses and got rid of him(he was scum there too). I deserve credit for it.

8. Let's look at these posts individually:

I'm not apathetic, but I did make a mistake in my analysis. Let's not lose the game because of a stupid mistake on a townie's part.

I mean, in terms of my pro-town playing, I was voting for Tom for the last three Days and was one of the first to push for it. I know that could be a scum bussing another scum, but think about it. I didn't jump on and bus Tom at the last minute or add my vote to a pile of votes on several days. I suspected(correctly, by the way) that Tom was scum and made my case for it and voted it.

Anyway, I did make a mistake, but I'm far from apathetic.

I responded specifically to him calling me apathetic. How did I fail to address the point?


1. Uh, yeah, well are you forgetting that I was far from a band wagoner on the vote for Tom? I was one of the first to vote for him and I kept my vote on him for three Days until he was lynched and proven to be scum(well, he confessed before that, but I had my vote on him for Days).

2. Of course it is good strategy for a scum to spread arguments around on everyone and quietly jump on bandwagons. However, I clearly did not "say things" about "everybody". I flat out said that I have no idea what is going on with Red, for example.

I was responding specifically to what Meeko said. He said I went around saying arguments about everyone, which wasn't true. How did I fail to address it?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Right. Yeah. Got it. The game all rests on the shoulders of the sub who has only been around for half of it.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Mahaloth, anything to say in response to my review of your posts so far?

[Mahaloth]

Mahaloth, anything to say in response to my review of your posts so far?

Yes, and I think I know which post you are referring to, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Is this the post you are referring to?

I'd feel foolish to let you trick us with that move. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12287547)

I don't think the post you mention bodes poorly for me and here is why:

Listen, I actually agree that a townie can acknowledge that their death is not a bad thing. I mean, if someone has a huge amount of votes against them and is vanilla, and it is not the end-game, then it is no big deal to acknowledge that your death will provide data for the game.

However, the timing of Oneandonly's comment was odd. He(she?) had not collected enough votes to be the "assured" lynch for the day. The boldness of the comment, where we were told he/she would be a good lynch sounded like a scum trying to sound like a townie.

Additionally, I don't think I ever "slapped" my vote on anyone. I placed my vote on Tom because his case for Freudian was horrible(she was Town, by the way). The fact that Ed thought it had legs actually makes Ed, not me, look worse. I later, Days later, added other reasons for why I thought Tom was scum.

[Mahaloth]

Uh, weird coding there. Sorry.

[Drain Bead]

Right. Yeah. Got it. The game all rests on the shoulders of the sub who has only been around for half of it.

Kinda sucks, but he's just being honest about how this Day will end up playing out. Your vote essentially makes it. If you change your mind too late, I might not be able to change my vote to join you, and I would like to join my vote with yours if at all possible.

Speaking of which, nothing Mahaloth says is inspiring me that he's Town. For one, his whole reliance on his case against Tom sounds just like me in Colorless. For another, the whole "I have a nagging feeling both ed and I are Town" thing is a little weird. If that's the case, we only have one Scum left--a possibility, but not a good one. Chances are good that at least one of the two, and possibly both, are Scum. And a comment like that seeks to either snuggle a Townie ed to remove his vote, or cause people to examine the connection between the two if Mahaloth comes up Scum.

Add that to Mahaloth being remarkably ambivalent about almost every case except the one against Tom, and his adding both Cookies and Rysto to his bizarre suspicion list without even mentioning their claims (one of which was confirmed!) and I don't really have a problem moving my vote, especially considering the fact that Cookies did.

unvote ed
Vote Mahaloth

[special ed]

Ahem:

1. That's stupid. Complain that I keep mentioning it, but I found Tom and kept pecking at him daily until we succesfully lynched him. I admit low post count, but I have been contributing.

Heck, Red has contributed less and he's here not drawing your fire.



true, but he's also done less Scummy things. He's obviously not absolved of anything either.




2. Right. I mentioned this stupid mistake in my review of myself. Nothing to say about it. If that is scum motivated, I don't see how it could be. Thanks for doing what people were saying, Ed; taking my own analysis and using it against me.

This was also brought up at the time it occurred. It's a point against you if you mentioned it or not.



3. I don't remember Day 1 enough. I guess I didn't see a case and then did. Or I made a mistake in my wording.

OK...so we can't use a point against you because you don't remember it? It's still there. go read it again. stop guessing. it looks apathetic. The links are in my big wow on you.

4. I'll make a note for the next game. Don't encourage participation unless you are massively participating. I didn't know my own participation would be reduced. I still think I've contributed fairly well, though.

Maybe modify the rule. Don't repeatedly bemoan low participation when your participation is also lacking

5. Why don't you go back to the 2 times I unvoted Tom and find my reasonings for doing so? I listed my reasons when I did. I didn't just unvote him randomly.

Why don't you go back to them. Point being you voted for Tom when he was not in danger of being lynched and when his lynch was inevitable. Hardly a reesounding endorsement of your Towniness. And a good strategy for a scum to try to win Townie Cred.

6. I've responded to cases against myself, though I didn't really see your case before you listed it out. This is just flat out not true, Ed.

I did a fricking huge wall of words on you! I've made other comments from time to time. But, fair enough, you're respondind now.



7. Well, finding Tom and pushing his case and killing him is the best thing I've done this game. I do deserve credit for it. I found Kelly in the last game and ended up getting lynched before everyone came to their senses and got rid of him(he was scum there too). I deserve credit for it.



by that reasoning, we must give Drain a pass for voting Oredigger long before he was outed. oh, and wait, so did I. And I continued to push his lynch forcing his claim that got him lynched. Not removed votes. Not one-off votes (OK, Drain's may have been), but real votes that resulted in Scum deaths. Your votes against Tom did not accomplish his lynching.

8. Let's look at these posts individually:



I responded specifically to him calling me apathetic. How did I fail to address the point?




I was responding specifically to what Meeko said. He said I went around saying arguments about everyone, which wasn't true. How did I fail to address it?
Great, you aren't apathetic. and you voted Tom. They were both "Scum wouldn't do that" defense.

But I retract the way I stated point 8.

[special ed]

Right. Yeah. Got it. The game all rests on the shoulders of the sub who has only been around for half of it.

sorry.

At least I didn't mention that it seems, no matter what, if we don't lose toDay, you'll certainly be killed toNight.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'm fully aware of the significance of my vote and my handicap in the game and I don't think I've said or done anything that could be construed as being ignorant of either. I will also not be the single point of failure or success. So what was the point of the post?

[special ed]

I'm fully aware of the significance of my vote and my handicap in the game and I don't think I've said or done anything that could be construed as being ignorant of either. I will also not be the single point of failure or success. So what was the point of the post?


Sorry, I was just being analytical and reminding you that I wanted your placeholder vote to be a little more solid, since I can't always guarantee I can access the game during the day. I didn't mean to imply you were ignorant of that fact, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that the entire course of the game is a result of your actions.