Random Mafia

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

At this point I highly doubt my vote will move, but I intend to keep supporting it and trying to line up my suspicions for Tomorrow in case we have another Night and I don't survive it.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Also, Mahaloth, "There can be no scum motivation because I'm not scum", is not much of a defense. There was also more to my case than just your post wrt Wanderers.

[Mahaloth]

At this point I highly doubt my vote will move, but I intend to keep supporting it and trying to line up my suspicions for Tomorrow in case we have another Night and I don't survive it.

So that's it? Can't I have a chance to further defend myself?

Also, Mahaloth, "There can be no scum motivation because I'm not scum", is not much of a defense. There was also more to my case than just your post wrt Wanderers.

Ah, my bad. Here


What was Drain's alleged slip? I see the "overnight thread" slip by Tom, but I totally see what he meant there. What did Drain say that is somewhat "slippy"? What post was it in?

You say I came close to defending his slip, but that's not true. It wasn't one.

I did understand what he meant and did not see it as a slip. I got what he meant by overnight thread and it was not a slip. He meant in the main game thread at night.


The other one you listed, which I posted in #738, I'm not sure what you want. Nothing I said there is remotely scummy. I was responding to how what Drain was doing(FOS multiple people) could be scummy. I thought this one was rather clear. I don't see what the problem is.

[Mahaloth]

Also, Mahaloth, "There can be no scum motivation because I'm not scum", is not much of a defense.

snipped

Well, other than saying I'm not scum, it's awfully hard to do much more than explain that I don't have scum motivation. People accusing me should have the burden of proving what my scum motivation is.

For example. Ed's scum motivation for getting us to make cases against ourselves if for him to have an easy way to pick out cases against us(which he did against me).

I'm saying I'm not guilty because I'm not guilty. The burden should be on others to clearly explain the scum motivation of actions.

[Mahaloth]

Cookies, You do realize that with less than 24 hours left in the Day, the issue of your vote placement is very important. If there are 2 Scum left, that is (and seeing we've only lynched 2, it may be)


Don't pressure Cookies to lock in. Perhaps you know that Cookies has a current vote on town(me) and you are hoping to get him to lock it in?

Cookies, feel free to change your vote as much as you want to.

Red, Drain, any thoughts at this point?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'd just like to say, one more time, that the way Zeriel and Mhaye were handled kinda sucks yak cock, and were they to have been removed prior to my subbing in, I doubt I would have agreed to sub.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Red's perspective would be particularly nice to have. His three paragraphs of "cases" against the other non-confirmed is not nearly what I had in mind or what the rest of us have suffered through or are still suffering through.

[special ed]

Don't pressure Cookies to lock in. Perhaps you know that Cookies has a current vote on town(me) and you are hoping to get him to lock it in?

Cookies, feel free to change your vote as much as you want to.

Red, Drain, any thoughts at this point?

I think Cookies understood. (OK, she understood before I said anything).

If there are 2 Scum...ALL Town must vote together to avoid Scum manipulation.

[Red Skeezix]

Red's perspective would be particularly nice to have. His three paragraphs of "cases" against the other non-confirmed is not nearly what I had in mind or what the rest of us have suffered through or are still suffering through.

My Three paragraphs of cases were my summaries of what I saw on re-read. My perspective on this game is such, I'm leaning towards drain and mahaloth being the last two scum or just drain if there is only 1. IMO, WoWs are puffery. They always look inflated, and feel like busy work. They show thought process, but provide infinite breathing room for smudges and inaccuracies, some of which I've seen in Ed's on me. I don't bother with them. I prefer concise statements which reflect which way the wind is blowing for me.

The fact that drain has been pretty much up your ass since the start of the day is the scummiest thing on two legs. There was no reason for her to coat tail you at the beginning of the day.

The only really original thought I've had since I made those cases is regarding Drain's comment about Tom not getting enough heat. Since he was a strong lynch contender the day before, scum may have expected to bus him that day. If he was showing signs of his imminent meltdown in the scum area, it would make sense that he would be a bus candidate. This all feels like huge speculation on my part though.

Other words, I'm fine with the Maha lynch, but I'd be finer with the Drain lynch. There are scummy points to Ed, but I don't see them out weighing Maha or Drain.

I'm gonna move my vote for solidarity tomorrow morning, where ever your vote is, that's where my vote is. And I'll be around during the day, watching for shenanigans if players aren't toeing the line.

[special ed]

so, to summarize.

Drain....Scum are Ed and Mahaloth
Red.... Scum Are Drain and Mahaloth
Ed...Scum are Mahaloth and Red


toMorrow should be interesting.....

[Mahaloth]

I'd just like to say, one more time, that the way Zeriel and Mhaye were handled kinda sucks yak cock, and were they to have been removed prior to my subbing in, I doubt I would have agreed to sub.

Yes. Both MHaye and Zeriel had votes in and it is dumb if they both were modkilled.


Other words, I'm fine with the Maha lynch, but I'd be finer with the Drain lynch. There are scummy points to Ed, but I don't see them out weighing Maha or Drain.

I'm gonna move my vote for solidarity tomorrow morning, where ever your vote is, that's where my vote is. And I'll be around during the day, watching for shenanigans if players aren't toeing the line.


Oh gee, nice of you to be around tomorrow for what looks to be the end. Nice of you to open your schedule to come in and vote me for solidarity. Move your vote for solidarity? What the fuck does that mean? Do you mean Cookies is now deciding everything, just because we know he is town? I mean, he's town but, and I mean this, HE IS WRONG! Ed or Drain(or YOU) are scum and if you are town, that's shit just to just show solidarity with Cookies. I will be trying to post toMorrow(from work....I do feel better, Ed), but I am awfully busy. I'm sure I'll find away to defend myself from this pathetic loss Town is facing.

:mad:

[Mahaloth]

so, to summarize.

Drain....Scum are Ed and Mahaloth
Red.... Scum Are Drain and Mahaloth
Ed...Scum are Mahaloth and Red


toMorrow should be interesting.....

Gee, thanks. How useful.

Everyone: Scum is Ed and everyone not you. Except Cookies, of course.

:confused:

[special ed]

Gee, thanks. How useful.

Everyone: Scum is Ed and everyone not you. Except Cookies, of course.

:confused:

I'm confused. I was summarizing everyone's suspects.

Which, if you are lynched and Cookies is NK'd would leave an interesting triangle of suspicion for toMorrow. (assuming we have 2 Scum left or 1 Scum who isn't you)

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Which is why I have to do my best to serve up the right candidate(s) for Today and Tomorrow, before Tonight.

Red - Anything you can do to sell me on Drain? Because she's not ping'd me since I've been in the game and she didn't really say anything to ping me before I arrived, as I just re-read her.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I neglected to mention that I've certainly noticed the coat-tailing, but I know you're all possibly doing it in secret, so I don't really see it as a scum tell that she's being more obvious about it.

Left-field idea, re-reading Red's case against Drain.

Tom seemed to flame out for no reason I could see within the game. If Drain was complicit in helping to bus him, and they were having a spat about that in the...heh...overnight thread, his flame out would make more sense to me.

I've also weighed on on Drain's handling of Meeko this game as a null tell based on previous games I've played where they've both been town. She's hard on him then too.

[Red Skeezix]

Which is why I have to do my best to serve up the right candidate(s) for Today and Tomorrow, before Tonight.

Red - Anything you can do to sell me on Drain? Because she's not ping'd me since I've been in the game and she didn't really say anything to ping me before I arrived, as I just re-read her.

A couple more points, that I feel are included in the points I made about her earlier. But I'll rehash.

1. She can't be arsed to try to figure out what meeko was saying, but was willing to push hard for a lynch on him, a little too hard I think. Instead of reading and asking questions she was willing to dismiss him too easily. This looks to me like she knew he was town, so whatever he was doing was irrelevant until she needed an easy mislynch on a player who it now is revealed made a big mistake.

(On preview, you've said that she's usually hard on him, but IMO she wasn't uniformly hard on him. But she was dismissive and has several times indicated that she has not had an interest in reading his posts.)

2. She has tried an empathy play, comparing your claim with meeko's claim in a different game under different circumstances and conditions. I don't agree with the similarities that she concluded. It looks like trying to sway a known town to give relevance to the case against meeko, by providing a quasi-similar situation.

3. She did not bother to argue against Ed's idea until you had weighed in on it. This is hella scummy. Was she afraid that you would support it and did not want to be on the opposition to a known town position?

Her position before you commented on it: "Intriguing " this is stalling with a hint of assent. So much so that Ed accused me of being the only one against his idea.

Her position after you commented on it: "I think Cookies has it right here--we should be focusing on the unconfirmed that aren't us." Once you'd ok'd it, it was a safe position to take.

4. She was voting oredigger while complaining about the lack of attention tom was getting. A great way to draw attention to someone is to vote for them. My read on this is that Tom was her intended bus, but she wanted to get credit for the early vote of oredigger. Eating the cake and having it too.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Yes, I do remember the exchange about Meeko's previous play as a Mason. It was the briefest glimmer in my failure to sustain my support for my fallen comrade, in whom I have invested much time and effort in trying to be able to read correctly in the past year of my life. *tear-glinted eyes of war staring off into the distance*

I'm obviously getting a bit slap-happy at this point in the game. Drain is certainly capable of fitting into a blind spot, but I don't think a case against her is going to topple the apparent consensus about Mahaloth. I'd appreciate it all of you of pure heart will state their true feelings about Mahaloth, regardless of where my vote is right now. It would be much appreciated by me.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Also, fwiw, I am almost positive of at least one example where Drain was railing just as hard against Meeko's play style, basically saying that she was ignoring anything that he said, when they were both town. So even that behavior matches my null tell in so far as that is as hard as I am willing to work to back it up, which is admittedly not very hard.

[Red Skeezix]

One more point about drain:
She has not questioned or defended against my case against her at all. I can only assume that this is because if you (cookies) are not showing suspicion of her, then it doesn't matter.

=====================
Mahaloth does not appear as scummy to me as Drain.

Mahaloth appears more scummy than Ed.

Here's why (from my earlier post):


Mahaloth: He's had a few posts that just are just egregious filler. He's committed the sin of admitting that he has no reads and no leads. I'm not sure if that is a scum tell, or an apathy tell, I think it is more likely the former. I'm having a hard time buying the apathetic town routine, when earlier he was being a cheerleader for more participation. He jumped at Special Ed's plan with gusto and gravy. This to me is scummy whether Ed is or isn't scum. To me it looks like he's either trying to build support for what I consider a bad idea, or he's trying to beat the rush to a plan that might have been enacted (aka Credit through early adoption). Story voted mahaloth on day 2 for a case that I was having a hard time understanding, was this a possible bread crumb?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I think Cookies understood. (OK, she understood before I said anything).

If there are 2 Scum...ALL Town must vote together to avoid Scum manipulation.

This post comes across as even more potentially manipulative than the first one.

What to do with you, Ed. What to do...

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Is anyone else even willing to weigh in on the possible implications of Zeriel in my summaries of Drain and Mahaloth? Ed is the only one I recall taking a stab the Zeriel was scum.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I neglected to mention that I've certainly noticed the coat-tailing, but I know you're all possibly doing it in secret, so I don't really see it as a scum tell that she's being more obvious about it.

Left-field idea, re-reading Red's case against Drain.

Tom seemed to flame out for no reason I could see within the game. If Drain was complicit in helping to bus him, and they were having a spat about that in the...heh...overnight thread, his flame out would make more sense to me.

I've also weighed on on Drain's handling of Meeko this game as a null tell based on previous games I've played where they've both been town. She's hard on him then too.

I just realized that Red already just previously posted a similar theory about a scummy Drain and Tom wrt Tom's flameout. Guilty of skimming a paragraph as Town :eek: and we're both in agreement that it is pretty far flung speculation.

I'm going to leave my vote on Mahaloth at this point and call it a night. Drain and Ed would be on on my short list for trying to make heads or tails with Tomorrow, if the Town has one. 4 unconfirmed on 1, plus a swath of pre-sub pages, plus Zeriel and Mhaye unflipped is just a bit too much to ask of me and my usual approach to come up with a zinger. So let's just get this over with already.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Actually...fuck it. We really did arrive at the same woowoo idea independently, and you know I have no reason to lie about that part. As far fetched as it might be, I'm crazy enough to run with it. Hopefully not off a cliff.

Unvote Mahaloth
Vote Drain

[Drain Bead]

Jesus Christ. Game over.

[Drain Bead]

Also, is LyLo really the time for far-fetched and crazy? And if my goal was to bus Tom for cred, why did I unvote him when he started melting down? I wouldn't get cred if I unvoted him.

[special ed]

Is anyone else even willing to weigh in on the possible implications of Zeriel in my summaries of Drain and Mahaloth? Ed is the only one I recall taking a stab the Zeriel was scum.

My suspicion on Zeriel was based primarily on the voting record. Coupling that with what appears to be a missing Scum (2 known dead and 2 supposed alive)

[special ed]

Actually...fuck it. We really did arrive at the same woowoo idea independently, and you know I have no reason to lie about that part. As far fetched as it might be, I'm crazy enough to run with it. Hopefully not off a cliff.

Unvote Mahaloth
Vote Drain

Oy!

[Vinnie Barbarino] I'm so confused [/Vinnie Babarino]

I'll check back, getting ready for work

[Drain Bead]

I think you're right that zeriel was Scum--the stuff you pointed out seems legit, the math adds up, and just from a metagamey fairness standpoint I think one of the two were Scum.

[ShadowFacts]

There is a decent chance I'm going to be stuck in a meeting at 2pm, so just as a reminder:
Days will end at precisely on Thursdays at 2:00 PM EDT by the SDMB clock. Board outages will not change the end of Day; plan carefully. All votes must have a time stamp of Thursday, 1:59 PM EDT or earlier. Posts and votes with time stamps Thursday, 2:00PM EDT or later will be ignored.

If I'm not around at 2, I hope to be able to have the result up by 2:30.

[Drain Bead]

Okay, so by my count, Red and Cookies are voting for me, while ed and I are voting for Mahaloth. Mahaloth is voting for ed, and our tie rules say that the person who received the latest vote will be safe, if I'm reading that correctly. That's me. So right now, our only confirmed Town has set up a scenario in which the person she was voting for as Scum before me gets to be the one who breaks the tie that is currently not in his favor.

W. T. F.

[Drain Bead]

And on that note, I can do nothing else but point at the facts already placed in front of us and let Cookies decide if she's willing to take the risk at LyLo that Mahaloth is Town. Because by putting this in his hands, that's essentially what she's doing.

[Drain Bead]

Sorry...that last post wasn't very clear. What I'm saying is that the ONLY way we get ahead in this scenario is if Mahaloth is Town and I am Scum. If you're willing to determine that both of those are true, we live to see another Day. If you think we're both Scum, that's great, because it would have been Mahaloth anyway. But if I'm telling the truth, you've just handed the win to Scum. On a "woowoo" idea that is "far fetched" and "crazy" and COULD HAVE ALSO BEEN SUGGESTED BY SCUM (although I think Red is probably our other Town).

[Drain Bead]

One last thing. If I'm doing my math right, and we're right in assuming there's two Scum out of five players, and you get one toDay, that takes us down to four players. Three in the morning. We're STILL at LyLo tomorrow. So Scum wouldn't have nearly as much to fight about as I do right now--they can still win this thing. If I go down toDay, we're fucked.

Please, Cookies, don't go with "woowoo" and "crazy" on Day Six! There's so much more evidence out there. If you're going to make an actual case, make a fucking case, and respond to my points against what you said. But if this is the way this game ends, I am going to be pissed.

[special ed]

And on that note, I can do nothing else but point at the facts already placed in front of us and let Cookies decide if she's willing to take the risk at LyLo that Mahaloth is Town. Because by putting this in his hands, that's essentially what she's doing.

It's not in his hands. Because he's not going to vote for himself. His only choice is to lynch himself or lynch you.

I have to assume he'll vote for you.

It's really in my hands. I can follow Cookies and vote for you and that seals it, or I can hope Mahaloth doesn't show up and lynch him.

[special ed]

One last thing. If I'm doing my math right, and we're right in assuming there's two Scum out of five players, and you get one toDay, that takes us down to four players. Three in the morning. We're STILL at LyLo tomorrow. So Scum wouldn't have nearly as much to fight about as I do right now--they can still win this thing. If I go down toDay, we're fucked.



This assumes 2 Scum.

If you are the last Scum, you would fight this hard.

If there are 2 Scum and Mahaloth is Town, you'd also fight this hard to try to get the win now.

This Scum wouldn't do that argument isn't making sense.

[special ed]

unvote Mahaloth

vote Drain


I hope your gut is right, Cookies. At one point you voted for each of us toDay...hehe

I was still hoping that looking at who suspected whom might help.

Drain had Ed as the top suspect but Mahaloth second.
Red had Drain first and Mahaloth 2nd.
Ed had Mahaloth first and Red second.
Mahaloth had Drain first and a wishy washy second.


I've also wavered on the Red/Drain issues. Red left a lot less to analyze.

But, anyway, looking at the list and calculating the 3 handed game if we get it right toDay:

Lynch Drain. 3 handed results in Ed and Red lynching Mahaloth. This means Ed and Red must be Town.

Lynch Ed. 3 handed results in Red and Mahaloth lynching Drain. This means Red and Mahaloth must be Town.

Lynch Red. 3 handed results in Ed and Drain lynching Mahaloth. This means Ed and Drain must be Town.

Lynch Mahaloth. 3 handed results in Red voting for Drain, Ed voting for Red, and Drain voting for Ed. Someone willhave to convince someone of something...

[Drain Bead]

We're done. Game over. Sorry, guys.

[Drain Bead]

Short of both Red and Cookies unvoting me, this game ends now unless there's only one Scum. If one of you comes into this thread and says you're not unvoting me, can we end this game before 2:00 so I can go bitch in the Forbidden thread?

[Drain Bead]

Also, this is bullshit that Cookies isn't coming back here to at least read my defense against her vote, which nobody is bothering to comment on.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I was sleeping, but I am here now.

[Drain Bead]

Too late, it seems.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

All I can say is that people do make mistakes and this could be one of mine, but it is nothing personal.

[Mahaloth]

Unvote Ed

Vote Drain

[Drain Bead]

I'm not taking it personally, I'm just shocked (and moderately pissed) that after six Days, this game is coming down to "woowoo."

[Mahaloth]

Unneeded, but I did it anyway to make myself feel clear.

[Drain Bead]

And I wonder why I bothered wasting four hours of my Day earlier in the week to have a game come down to "woowoo."

[special ed]

And I wonder why I bothered wasting four hours of my Day earlier in the week to have a game come down to "woowoo."

So, now that that's over, if both of you, Red and mahaloth are Scum, you can say so..At least that way we'll all know.

And I can hang my head in shame again at being unable to convince anyone

[Drain Bead]

I'm Town.

[special ed]

And I wonder why I bothered wasting four hours of my Day earlier in the week to have a game come down to "woowoo."

That's not fair. Cookies and I also put in consdierable time recently.

[Drain Bead]

And what's crazy is that if we'd nabbed Mahaloth, I probably would have ended up voting for Red Tomorrow.

[special ed]

I'm Town.

Doesn't mean we lose unless Red and Mahaloth are both Scum.

[Drain Bead]

That's not fair. Cookies and I also put in consdierable time recently.

Then you should be pissed too, unless you're Scum.

[special ed]

Then you should be pissed too, unless you're Scum.

no, I can't be pissed at Cookies. She put the effort in. Sometimes you're just wrong.

And, like I said, this isn't over if there's only 1 Scum left.

[Drain Bead]

no, I can't be pissed at Cookies. She put the effort in. Sometimes you're just wrong.

And, like I said, this isn't over if there's only 1 Scum left.

I guess I'm not seeing it that way, based on the fact that she used "woowoo," "far fetched," and "crazy" in her vote post for me. That doesn't seem like work, you know? That seems like flipping a freakin' coin, maybe worse, since just a page ago she was thinking I looked clean.

Someone once mentioned a game where Cookies was playing 3-handed at endgame, and she was the deciding vote. She went through and looked at each player, assuming they were Town, and seeing which one made sense. Town won. Now, I know Cookies was a sub in this game, and it kinda sucks to go back over stuff you weren't initially there for, but I guaran-damn-tee you that if you go through the game looking at it like that, there's at least one person here who comes out smelling a lot worse than I do.

I don't mind losing. I do mind losing like this.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'm actually kinda hoping for no one to be pissed. I subbed in for love of the game, and not the selfish kind of love just to be in a game.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Well, Drain, that was a very different situation, and I explained why it just didn't work this time around. Throw a Zeriel and an Mhaye into that 3-handed game and it probably wouldn't have worked then either.

[Drain Bead]

Well, we're past 2:00, so nothing that happens matters.

If we have two Scum left and one of them is reading this, go ahead and post, because you've won.

[Drain Bead]

Also, Cookies, if you'd seen my post about unvoting Tom before his flameout at a point where your unvote would have made a difference, would it have caused you to rethink your vote for me?

[Mahaloth]

It's two scum guys.

Me and Red have won. :)

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Probably not, but who knows.

[Red Skeezix]

Hey I was gonna do that :)

(Also, Zeriel was Town, Mhaye was scum).

[Mahaloth]

I have to say, Red and I settled on Cookies for the Night Kill, but I stepped in at the last minute and switched to Rysto.

It really helped having a larger unconfirmed pool on the last Day.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Thanks for letting us off the hook. Care to claim Zeriel or Mhaye so I can go back to sleep?

[Red Skeezix]

Yep, and I give you all the credit for that play Maha. And nominate you for the Scum MVP.

[Mahaloth]

I think it would be great to dip into what we did that was actually scum motivated and what was not scum motivated. I think that still gets mixed up.

I did have some legitimate cases against me based on strategy we developed at Night, but a lot was just weak cases where I would have taken the same action as Town.

[Drain Bead]

And now that it's over....

...the reason why I would have voted for Red tomorrow instead of ed is because Red never went along with Cookies. I'd have expected any Town player to go along with her unless she was voting for him.

[Mahaloth]

Thanks, Red. This was a pretty good game for me. I did a lot that went unnoticed(as is common as Scum).

I'm surprised I survived, though.

And yes, MHaye was scum and Zeriel was regular town.

[Drain Bead]

Also, I'm also mildly pissed at Rysto for not self-protecting. It would have ended up with the same number of mislynches if he was wrong, but with a confirmed Town left if it went three-handed.

[Mahaloth]

Oh, I was Josephine March.

I think Red was John Wilkes Booth

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Ok mods, time for your time in the hot seat here with me. How in the heck was the handling of Zeriel and Mhaye not a kick in the crotch to Town?

[Red Skeezix]

And now that it's over....

...the reason why I would have voted for Red tomorrow instead of ed is because Red never went along with Cookies. I'd have expected any Town player to go along with her unless she was voting for him.

That's a bad reason and is easily hand waved away. IE Being confirmed town != Being right. It means your motivations are beyond question, but it doesn't mean that your conclusions are.

[ShadowFacts]

So much for the death post....


Oh, well, I'm gonna do it anyway, you impatient people, you.

[Tom Scud]

I was kind of counting on MHaye and Red finishing the game as the living representatives of the scum team, actually. I figured Maha and I weren't going to make it all the way through.

[Tom Scud]

Also, I took a couple deliberate swings at MHaye on Day 2 after I made that slip (which I still maintain isn't a great scum-finding technique, even though the clock did happen to be right this time, just like it was 12 hours ago.)

[Mahaloth]

I'm confused. I was summarizing everyone's suspects.

Which, if you are lynched and Cookies is NK'd would leave an interesting triangle of suspicion for toMorrow. (assuming we have 2 Scum left or 1 Scum who isn't you)

Also, I'm also mildly pissed at Rysto for not self-protecting. It would have ended up with the same number of mislynches if he was wrong, but with a confirmed Town left if it went three-handed.

His non-self protecting was a last minute gamble I took last Night.

[Red Skeezix]

Ok mods, time for your time in the hot seat here with me. How in the heck was the handling of Zeriel and Mhaye not a kick in the crotch to Town?

Probably because it was equally a kick in the crotch to scum. A single vanilla scum is worth a lot more than a single vanilla town.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Speaking only for myself, it was your pursuit of Texcat, not the night thread comment, that gave me my first and only two hand holds that I ever had in the game. The second being that Meeko would not pull a fake reaction to me like that.

[Mahaloth]

Tom built his case for me after I voted for him on Day 2(I think).

I actually quoted Tom for the case against him.

[ShadowFacts]

The 5 remaining players decide on Drain Bead for the lynch. Rather than being scared of the noose, she seems a bit pissy and put out. Nevertheless, she dies just like all the previous ones...

Drain Bead (Spiritual Leader of the Nation of Argentina) is dead.

The 4 remaining players eye each other suspiciously. Cookies turns to ask ed, "Is that it? Are there one scum or two left?" The answer is provided by the knife that Mahaloth sticks into Cookies' back. As Cookies bleeds out on the floor, Red Skeezix pulls out another noose. Mahaloth and Red are easily able to overpower ed, who despite his name has no special powers. They lynch him last, and claim victory for the
Scum!




The end.

[Tom Scud]

I thought you should have laid it on a bit thicker, actually, Maha.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Probably because it was equally a kick in the crotch to scum. A single vanilla scum is worth a lot more than a single vanilla town.

Sorry, but that doesn't add up in my mind because while the scum start the game with a lot of perfect info, the Town slowly earns it. Not only that, but each bit of stable data that can be leveraged against accrues interest in the potential worth to Town as the game progresses.

[Red Skeezix]

Speaking only for myself, it was your pursuit of Texcat, not the night thread comment, that gave me my first and only two hand holds that I ever had in the game. The second being that Meeko would not pull a fake reaction to me like that.

The push for the meeko lynch was the biggest surprise of the game for me. I did sort of defend meeko, because I thought that voting him would me in a scum trap.

[Mahaloth]

I thought you should have laid it on a bit thicker, actually, Maha.

Yes, well I was afraid that it would be an obvious scum bussing, then.

[Red Skeezix]

Sorry, but that doesn't add up in my mind because while the scum start the game with a lot of perfect info, the Town slowly earns it. Not only that, but each bit of stable data that can be leveraged against accrues interest in the potential worth to Town as the game progresses.

That's beside the point. A 4-3 lylo is a lot more advantageous to scum than a 3-2 lylo. When Mhaye went down, Tom scud was already looking like a lost cause, so we were stuck with that situation.

[Red Skeezix]

Was there a spoiler board?

[Rysto]

Also, I'm also mildly pissed at Rysto for not self-protecting. It would have ended up with the same number of mislynches if he was wrong, but with a confirmed Town left if it went three-handed.

I couldn't self-protect. That was a total bluff.

Edit: I also couldn't protect Fictional characters, which meant I couldn't protect story, the Cop.

[Red Skeezix]

So once the masons were out, who did you protect? Did we just get that lucky?

[Rysto]

So once the masons were out, who did you protect? Did we just get that lucky?

You got lucky in that I was a selfish idiot for the first two Days. I chose not to protect anybody the first Night on the (terrible) reasoning that if I did get a block, it wouldn't effect the lynch number and would make it clear that I wasn't self-protecting. The second Night I thought really hard about protecting Guiri, but I forgot to get my orders in Saturday morning and than didn't get back to a computer until 2:01 EST that afternoon.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

That's beside the point. A 4-3 lylo is a lot more advantageous to scum than a 3-2 lylo. When Mhaye went down, Tom scud was already looking like a lost cause, so we were stuck with that situation.

I'm fairly sure you would not agree if you were on this side of things, but who knows.

[peekercpa]

sorry, folks but i gotta agree with cookies on this one. if there would have been a reveal that certainly would have favored town but with none that was a HUGE scum pick up regardless of the composition of the dead. i mean if both were scum that would be about even but with even one townie in there - sorry, advantage scum. town lives with information and to lose two folks regardless of alignment and get no information is a kick to the crotch.

[ShadowFacts]

Was there a spoiler board?

storyteller0910 created a spoiler board. PM him for details and password. I never visited, otherwise I would tell you myself.

[Drain Bead]

I couldn't self-protect. That was a total bluff.

Edit: I also couldn't protect Fictional characters, which meant I couldn't protect story, the Cop.

Oh, okay. Then I'm not nearly as pissed at you now. ;)

[Drain Bead]

Agreed with peeker. The no-death-reveal screwed us, although I don't know if things would have ended up much different had we known.

[special ed]

damn.

I was right. dead right.

oh well, very interesting game, Mods.

I, for one, am not as upset about the no reveals.

I am curious though, why were they modkilled? They had each voted that Day. What was the criterion and did Red and mahaloth meet it each Day?

[peekercpa]

but anyways, thanks sach and shadow for a great game.

and good job to the scum team.

i just wish i would have been around to participate longer.

[Meeko]

Meanwhile, I've been in training for my Census job all this week.

The fact that it is paid training is great.

The fact that I feel there is little time after training for domestic chores, let alone internet, sucks.

If we have a new game starting up in the next week or so, I will probably sit it out.

[ShadowFacts]

Ok mods, time for your time in the hot seat here with me. How in the heck was the handling of Zeriel and Mhaye not a kick in the crotch to Town?

Oh, and since you addressed this to "mods," I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you. sach made that call and I had no input - I'm just a flunky :cool:

You'll have to wait for him to chime in.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Agreed with peeker. The no-death-reveal screwed us, although I don't know if things would have ended up much different had we known.

It is hard to know, but the fact that Ed and I were both having a hard time reading Zeriel's posts as the posts of a Townie may have continued to trip us up even if I'd not woowoo'd on you.

And, for me, running into Zeriel's and Mhaye's interactions with other players during re-reads and not being able to leverage against them was definitely a contributing factor to me even thinking about going woowoo at all.

[Meeko]

Yeah, WTF is woowoo?

[Rysto]

Spoiler board:

http://bladerunnergame.proboards99.com

password - chrisfoyle

[special ed]

I am curious though, why were they modkilled? They had each voted that Day. What was the criterion and did Red and mahaloth meet it each Day?

I could have edited, but I specifically mean Day 3 when Rec had but 1 post

[Meeko]

I was Doc protected? News to me.

What are the rules there? shouldn't I have gotten some indication?

[Red Skeezix]

I could have edited, but I specifically mean Day 3 when Rec had but 1 post

IIRC, Scum was told that mhaye was modkilled for having only 3 posts across 2 game days.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I was Doc protected? News to me.

What are the rules there? shouldn't I have gotten some indication?

I don't want to say 'never', but rarely are those who are protected made aware of it. In my experience at least.

[special ed]

I don't want to say 'never', but rarely are those who are protected made aware of it. In my experience at least.


The only game I can think of was Super Smash Brothers 1. And that was a Scum protection.

[Tom Scud]

I believe there were both scum and Town doctors in the Crimson Glyph who gave protection messages. There definitely was a scum one.

Also, I'm pretty sure the doc in Lost gave a similar message. Two of Meeko's earlier games.

[special ed]

Red had a lot of posts which really weren't significant. Day 3 had 1 post after Day 2 had only 1 significant post. And Night 2 and Night 3 had no posts

[Meeko]

I don't want to say 'never', but rarely are those who are protected made aware of it. In my experience at least.

So, given what I thought I knew about protection, being in a masonry, and what a masonry is, even, to say nothing of the fact that my first board game over here was a personal victory....



I mean, either you guys need new standards, or I just happened to pick the wrong 7 or so games to play in.

[special ed]

God, I played an awful game.

I focused too much on Drain, who I should have known I always find suspicious. I let Meeko convince me that he was Scum. I dropped the ball on Story and Jimmy's cases against Mahaloth until it was too late to convince anyone else.

I think the lower content and lower participation from the Scum puts blinders on the Town. Town players who post a lot do suspicous things.

[Red Skeezix]

Red had a lot of posts which really weren't significant. Day 3 had 1 post after Day 2 had only 1 significant post. And Night 2 and Night 3 had no posts

Yeah, you probably should have lynched me for that or pressured me, wait Guiri did just that. Sach commented that he wanted to remove me for the game for my Day 5 participation.

Honestly though, lurking is a strategy, period. It's why I ride on lurkers and low posters hard in games where I'm town. Im not on totally on board with mod killing players who are not 100% absent, but it's sach's game so it's his rules I guess.

[special ed]

So, given what I thought I knew about protection, being in a masonry, and what a masonry is, even, to say nothing of the fact that my first board game over here was a personal victory....



I mean, either you guys need new standards, or I just happened to pick the wrong 7 or so games to play in.

maybe the new standard should be Vig killing meeko and peeker early


I'm kidding! just kidding!


just hope I don't get a vig role anytime soon.

[Red Skeezix]

maybe the new standard should be Vig killing meeko and peeker early


I'm kidding! just kidding!


just hope I don't get a vig role anytime soon.

Cookies investigating peek day 1 was one of the smartest moves I've seen from a cop in recent memory. It completely removes the IMO bullshit argument of "anti-town distraction".

[Meeko]

maybe the new standard should be Vig killing meeko and peeker early


I'm kidding! just kidding!


just hope I don't get a vig role anytime soon.

You just hope Peeker or I don't get the vig role any time soon.

Well, ok, at least when I did it, I only had one bullet in my gun.
























Sorry Peeks.

[GuiriEnEspaña]

Red had a lot of posts which really weren't significant. Day 3 had 1 post after Day 2 had only 1 significant post. And Night 2 and Night 3 had no posts
Yeah, and even though I thought he was scum (of the "clean noser" variety), I still thought it was best to poke him into action rather than risk another modkill.

Hard luck Town.

I can't believe Mahaloth got away with his "but I voted Tom 3 days in a row" ploy. A perfect example of forcing Town cred for bussing.

I wish I'd been more convincing in my arguments against scum, I WoW-ed OreDigger and Red and found them both scummy. I expressed suspicions of Mahaloth on several occasions. I guessed MHaye was scum based on the worthless OreDigger bus. I was almost convinced of Tom's scumminess but didn't feel comfortable joining Red and Mahaloth until after his claim and even then thought they may have been bussing him. But then I was NKed...

Can we see the scum board?

[Tom Scud]

It's sachertorte.proboards.com

password is outhouse

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Cookies investigating peek day 1 was one of the smartest moves I've seen from a cop in recent memory. It completely removes the IMO bullshit argument of "anti-town distraction".

And yet it still almost got completely buried in Godfather noise and a barking dog. I knew it was what I wanted to do as soon as I got my role, but I did have my doubts about whether that was the best choice of play.

[Chronos]

Since I was just reminded of it by sach mentioning it on the spoilers board, I attempted to use my power on Storyteller the night he died. I didn't think I had any actual power, but I wanted to be on the safe side in case there was some merit to Meeko's "religious people are protectors" idea. I mean, it's not like sach hasn't thrown curveballs in games before, and I figured it couldn't hurt.

[Drain Bead]

So, who's got next?

[Chronos]

Oh, and rather than registering for the spoiler board now, I'll reply to a couple of points from there:

First, bussing. Bussing in itself might not be worth much Townie cred (Mahaloth's argument of "I'm Town, see, I attacked Tom!" was a load of bull), but refraining from bussing will, over the course of a few Days, put a huge neon sign over all of the Scum. Frankly, it's tough to bus enough for it to not be noticeable (I know this from experience, since my own vote-analysis program would have outed me in Screamers, even though I know exactly how it works and was actively trying to foil it).

Second, on Townies hanging their votes on Cookies this past Day: That, too, was essential. At LyLo, the Town needs to be unanimous, or the Scum can flip the vote at the last minute, and if the unconfirmed Town don't all follow the lone confirmed, they won't be unanimous. That said, though, that doesn't remove responsibility from all the other folks: What they should have been doing was making the best cases they could for whomever they were most suspicious of, and urging Cookies to follow their suggestions, and I didn't see enough of that.

[Red Skeezix]

Second, on Townies hanging their votes on Cookies this past Day: That, too, was essential. At LyLo, the Town needs to be unanimous, or the Scum can flip the vote at the last minute, and if the unconfirmed Town don't all follow the lone confirmed, they won't be unanimous. That said, though, that doesn't remove responsibility from all the other folks: What they should have been doing was making the best cases they could for whomever they were most suspicious of, and urging Cookies to follow their suggestions, and I didn't see enough of that.

I urged Cookies to follow my suggestions and refused to relent until the last day :D.

[Tom Scud]

As long as we're responding to the spoiled thread here, story pm'd me to ask me if I was faking my flame-out for strategic reasons.

Here's my response:


Originally Posted by storyteller0910
So just between the dead and the soon-to-be dead - are you really as frustrated as you appear to be? Or were you gilding the lily a bit in order to give posthumous cover to your team-mates?

(I'm fully spoiled, at this point, so don't worry about revealing anything. And I do understand if you'd rather not answer). But I'm dying to know.

That's slightly complicated.

I was really frustrated. But part of the reason I was really frustrated was that it very much looked like I might have saved myself at the expense of Mahaloth (and oh by the way Guiri has become a very very good player); if I intended to play to win, it would then involve at least two (and probably more) additional weeks of probably feeling like complete crap at least one day a week, and I didn't want to commit to that. I probably would have sucked it up if I thought we could get a mislynch and go for the win next week.

I had considered making a deliberate slip about Oredigger being the Godfather in my response to Drain (something like "oh when you vote for the Godfather in turn 1 you're Townie, but when I find some damning evidence by spending a solid hour rereading posts I'm clearly scum"), and in retrospect probably should have.

[Rysto]

I wanted to protect story Night One but couldn't because he was fictional. That was the real reason why I brought up the mass claim idea, by the way. I wanted to know who my power would work on.

[peekercpa]

You just hope Peeker or I don't get the vig role any time soon.

Well, ok, at least when I did it, I only had one bullet in my gun.

Sorry Peeks.

no probs. i've got a hair trigger and can become single minded. i know this and continue to work on it.

[sachertorte]

damn.

I was right. dead right.

oh well, very interesting game, Mods.

I, for one, am not as upset about the no reveals.

I am curious though, why were they modkilled? They had each voted that Day. What was the criterion and did Red and mahaloth meet it each Day?

MHaye was modkilled for lack of participation. I don't recall the details but he essentially had 2 posts on one day then 1 post the following day. DEAD.

Zeriel was modkilled for lack of participation. While he had more than 2 posts on the day he died, most were not game-related. Of the mod-kills, Zeriel is the one I was most iffy about, but I felt that if I was taking out MHaye, I needed to take out Zeriel for essentially the same reason.

Red Skeezix could arguably have been modkilled as well.

Different people have different opinions on non-participation. As someone who falls into the over-participation category, I get moody about non-participation. Some moderators put the task of dealing with non-participation on the players, but I'm not sure if that is a good solution. My personal opinion is that if the game is going to be determined by who doesn't participate then the game suffers. Mod-kill at least determines the game in favor of those that participate and punishes those that do not.
At least that was the theory. In practice, the swing involved in mod-kill gets in the way. If I could do it again, I probably would mod-kill Red Skeezix for his lack of participation.

[Rysto]

To be fair, if you had modkilled Skeezix for lack of participation, you probably should have modkilled me, too.

[Mahaloth]

I couldn't self-protect. That was a total bluff.
.

Shoot. This, I thought, was my most awesome move. My last minute move to kill you was, I thought, what saved us. I had no idea it was a lock to work.


I am curious though, why were they modkilled? They had each voted that Day. What was the criterion and did Red and mahaloth meet it each Day?

I agree. It could be a scum tactic to lay very low. I was pissed we lost MHaye. I thought we were going to lose for it.


I can't believe Mahaloth got away with his "but I voted Tom 3 days in a row" ploy. A perfect example of forcing Town cred for bussing.


No, it wasn't. I was totally after Kelly in the last game and when he did get lynched, I was proven right and I was town. I was dead already, but it was very similar. I had my vote on him for Days and I would have wanted credit for finding him if I had lived to see him lynched.


Here is what I did as scum, in my opinion. I'd love to know what others think(the other scum, that is). I like being able to review.:

1. Pushed to Night-kill a lot of the best players early. I figured it was very transparent, but I liked that idea. I was up for killing Ed earlier in the game. We probably should have. He nearly had us.

2. Also try to Night-kill people after me, which again, would be very transparent, but I liked that.

3. Voting Tom and using Tom's own case against him, which you can read(written by him) on the scum board.

4. Made the move to kill Rysto, assuming he had protected Cookies, our confirmed player. I see now that was no big deal, but there it is. Then again, it did save us, as he did protect Cookies, right?

Most other stuff I did, like when I forgot about Rysto and Cookies being confirmed was all mistakes.

Red, when you said that you would be here today to make a solidarity vote, were you trying to hint to me that you would be available to move votes if necessary at the end of the game? I read it that way, anyway.

[Chronos]

This is why I set a hard objective criterion for what constituted "inactivity" in Cecil Pond. I didn't want to put myself into a position where a judgment call on my part would make a significant difference to the outcome, since I don't trust my own impartiality.

And while I think that there's a place for kill-without-reveal (obviously, given that I had such a mechanic in Pond, too), I don't think a modkill is it. It just punishes the folks who are still playing, but doesn't really affect someone who's decided not to bother with the game (since they are, after all, not bothering with the game).

[Mahaloth]

So, amrussel was wrong in the spoiler board, right? Tom's flameout was unrelated to our bussing him.

[sachertorte]

Ok mods, time for your time in the hot seat here with me. How in the heck was the handling of Zeriel and Mhaye not a kick in the crotch to Town?

It's in the rules. Clearly stated.

One could argue that the rule should be removed for future games, but it was included in the rules from the very beginning of the game, so the lack of reveal wasn't something out of nowhere.

In terms of win-condition. The Mod-kill was a huge help to Town. So much so that I was worried that it broke the game. Storyteller pointed out that the set of unknowns was getting smaller, and Zeriel was an UNKNOWN. In other words the pool in which scum had to hide was very small. At the time Guiri had all the scum identified. No one listened to her. Furthermore, no one looked at what she had said after she died.

IMO, the reason why town lost is because Town was talking (scummy!) and Scum was silent (safe), which is irritating but true.

I also fully accept the criticism that Red should have been modkilled.

[Red Skeezix]

Red, when you said that you would be here today to make a solidarity vote, were you trying to hint to me that you would be available to move votes if necessary at the end of the game? I read it that way, anyway.

Yeah, and I was trying to suck up to cookies a bit. I wanted to make sure that if we needed to block lynch that I would be around (Even if I did move to you in the early part of the day)

[sachertorte]

Red had a lot of posts which really weren't significant. Day 3 had 1 post after Day 2 had only 1 significant post. And Night 2 and Night 3 had no posts

I didn't count nights.

Red did pop onto my radar after the modkills of MHaye and Zeriel. If you look at the spoiled board I even expressed the feeling that I should modkill him. I didn't and I regret it.

[sachertorte]

I think the lower content and lower participation from the Scum puts blinders on the Town. Town players who post a lot do suspicous things.

This is exactly what happened. Before my vacation I noted that Town were all arguing:
Meeko, Ed, Drain.

Cookies and Rysto were confirmed.

Scum were nearly silent.

[sachertorte]

Honestly though, lurking is a strategy, period. It's why I ride on lurkers and low posters hard in games where I'm town. Im not on totally on board with mod killing players who are not 100% absent, but it's sach's game so it's his rules I guess.

The rule exists because lurking as a strategy isn't fair to the other players. People invest time and energy into the game and if someone is going to intentionally not participate as a strategy to win, then the game devolves into something not worth playing.

[sachertorte]

It just punishes the folks who are still playing, but doesn't really affect someone who's decided not to bother with the game (since they are, after all, not bothering with the game).

Does it help that Zeriel and MHaye were removed from the game and therefore MHaye did not win?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Like I said, if I'd known that 2 players were about to be beamed out of the game that I would already have to be digging myself out of, I probably wouldn't have subbed in. Making sure to read the rules isn't really something I prioritize until after I've agreed to be in the game. Looks like that will have to change now.

[sachertorte]

This is why I set a hard objective criterion for what constituted "inactivity" in Cecil Pond. I didn't want to put myself into a position where a judgment call on my part would make a significant difference to the outcome, since I don't trust my own impartiality.

I've done that in the past: "three substantive posts." But do you know what happened? People just made sure they made 3 pithy but game-related posts. I allowed it to be more subjective this time to remove such gaming.

[sachertorte]

Like I said, if I'd known that 2 players were about to be beamed out of the game that I would already have to be digging myself out of, I probably wouldn't have subbed in. Making sure to read the rules isn't really something I prioritize until after I've agreed to be in the game. Looks like that will have to change now.

I'm sorry that the mod-kills ruined your experience.

Thank you for substituting.

[sachertorte]

Oh and a big thanks to ShadowFacts for helping with moderating duties.

And Thanks to storyteller for hosting the spoiler board (after he died). I didn't want to put the spoiler board on the same site as the scum talk, so we went without for weeks.

[special ed]

Second, on Townies hanging their votes on Cookies this past Day: That, too, was essential. At LyLo, the Town needs to be unanimous, or the Scum can flip the vote at the last minute, and if the unconfirmed Town don't all follow the lone confirmed, they won't be unanimous. That said, though, that doesn't remove responsibility from all the other folks: What they should have been doing was making the best cases they could for whomever they were most suspicious of, and urging Cookies to follow their suggestions, and I didn't see enough of that.

I disagree. I think Drain and I both made our cases and did our best to convince Cookies. She just trusted her gut and Red.

[Tom Scud]

I agree with ed - I think Town played the last Day rather well, even if they ended up with a bad conclusion.

[special ed]

1. Pushed to Night-kill a lot of the best players early. I figured it was very transparent, but I liked that idea. I was up for killing Ed earlier in the game. We probably should have. He nearly had us.

I did have you. I just couldn't convince anyone else :smack:


Most other stuff I did, like when I forgot about Rysto and Cookies being confirmed was all mistakes.

Mistakes that a Town player would have been unlikely to make. Town players had it foremost in their minds who was confirmed since everyone else wasn't. Your primary focus as Scum was to force a mislynch.

[special ed]

In terms of win-condition. The Mod-kill was a huge help to Town. So much so that I was worried that it broke the game. Storyteller pointed out that the set of unknowns was getting smaller, and Zeriel was an UNKNOWN. In other words the pool in which scum had to hide was very small. At the time Guiri had all the scum identified. No one listened to her. Furthermore, no one looked at what she had said after she died.

I agree. it helped us in that it removed 2 unconfirmed and 1 I strongly and wrongly (as was the norm at the beginning of this game) suspected.

[special ed]

I also fully accept the criticism that Red should have been modkilled.

I wasn't going to say it out loud, but in the back of my mind, I was wondering if you didn't remove him because he was perhaps the last Scum.

[special ed]

The rule exists because lurking as a strategy isn't fair to the other players. People invest time and energy into the game and if someone is going to intentionally not participate as a strategy to win, then the game devolves into something not worth playing.

It's like the person who goes inside when you're playing hide and seek outside. Makes it really tough to find them....

[Red Skeezix]

It's like the person who goes inside when you're playing hide and seek outside. Makes it really tough to find them....

Except it's very easy to spot the low participators in forum mafia. There is a completely usable counter-strategy.

[Rysto]

Except it's very easy to spot the low participators in forum mafia. There is a completely usable counter-strategy.
Yes, but it's impossible to distinguish the low-volume scum from the low-volume Townies.

[Red Skeezix]

Yes, but it's impossible to distinguish the low-volume scum from the low-volume Townies.

Lynch them all, and early. After a game or two of that, there won't be such a thing as a low-volume townie. Unless they are new.

[Red Skeezix]

Lynch them all, and early. After a game or two of that, there won't be such a thing as a low-volume townie. Unless they are new.

Instead, loud players who if they are scum will trip or trap themselves eventually are lynched on days 1 and 2.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I trusted my gut, but Red was a catalyst.

My experience wasn't ruined either. I just know what my limits are as a player, and I try to avoid writing checks that my brain can't cash. No mod and no other player is responsible for me not being able to get past my own blind spots. A better player would have been able to compartmentalize Zeriel and Mhaye better.

I had thought about asking for everyone to give me their own cliff notes on the pre-sub days, but we all had our hands full just trying to re-read eachother.

[sachertorte]

Except it's very easy to spot the low participators in forum mafia. There is a completely usable counter-strategy.

So the game devolves into lynch the lurker. Again, not fun, even if Town wins. It defeats the purpose of playing:
Scum lurker = Town win. Yawn.
Town lurker = Scum win. Yawn.

The point isn't a matter of "fair" in a win-condition sense, but "fair" in a game-play sense. I wouldn't want to waste my time with that, and I don't expect anyone else to do so either. Winning isn't the point.

[special ed]

Except it's very easy to spot the low participators in forum mafia. There is a completely usable counter-strategy.

If I wanted to play a game that wasn't any fun, I'd go to mafiascum. ;)

It's a party game. Of course maybe that's why my Scum record is pathetic while my Town record is merely lousy. :dubious:

[special ed]

So, who's got next?

I suppose we should take a look at BSG. Have you been there lately?

I also have another game which is nearing finishing stages. I can probably slap it together for Monday if no one else has a game. Though I'm not sure how interested people would be in a Lewis Carroll game.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I've been working on a game too, based on characters inspired by the movie-that-was-inspired-by-actual-events, Flame and Citron (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0920458/), but it is just a baby of an idea and it has been ignored for over a month now. Pleo has been gracious enough to look at the setup with me but if any of you flat out refuse to play in a game of my creation, you could help me torture the addicts. For all of my bitching when it feels like my faction has been shafted, balancing is not necessarily my forte and I think the more people who vet such things the better.

[Mahaloth]

Yeah, and I was trying to suck up to cookies a bit.

Glad you did it. I was wondering if you would be around if I needed you. Would you have been there to move votes around 1:45 eastern? I was hoping so, but didn't need it anyway.

Well played on the final Day, Red, by the way. Very smooth.


Scum were nearly silent.

Quieting up, which was different than lurking was really part of my strategy near the end. I didn't go silent, but I was finding that allowing some of the squabbling to go on between town was effective.

I did have you. I just couldn't convince anyone else :smack:

Mistakes that a Town player would have been unlikely to make. Town players had it foremost in their minds who was confirmed since everyone else wasn't. Your primary focus as Scum was to force a mislynch.

Well, you did have me, but I was so distracted with real life stuff, I still think I would have goofed about Cookies and Rysto if I was town.

Even though this is my best game yet, that was probably my lamest post ever. I still think we would have had an easier time if we killed you early, Ed.

[Mahaloth]

I suppose we should take a look at BSG. Have you been there lately?

I also have another game which is nearing finishing stages. I can probably slap it together for Monday if no one else has a game. Though I'm not sure how interested people would be in a Lewis Carroll game.

Sign me up.

Actually, anyone who goes next should sign me up.

I can probably get one together after June, so perhaps I can mod a game after the next one(June, July, or August).

[Red Skeezix]

So the game devolves into lynch the lurker. Again, not fun, even if Town wins. It defeats the purpose of playing:
Scum lurker = Town win. Yawn.
Town lurker = Scum win. Yawn.

The point isn't a matter of "fair" in a win-condition sense, but "fair" in a game-play sense. I wouldn't want to waste my time with that, and I don't expect anyone else to do so either. Winning isn't the point.

I guess I'll concede your point. I'm a little crusty on the game right now since I'm way over represented in the times that I've been scum.

Also, I'm down to zero games playing so I'd be game for just about anything. *Crosses fingers for VT role*

[Mahaloth]

Ed, is your game open or closed?

[Chronos]

I don't think that players gaming an objective criterion (like, "at least three posts each Day", or whatever) is necessarily a problem, but if you want to avoid that, then the solution is to set some a priori criterion at the beginning of the game (before you know who, Town or Scum, will fall afoul of it) and then not tell the players what it is.

And I don't know yet whether I'll play in the next one. I need to get a lot of work accomplished this summer, and I don't know yet how my schedule will fall out. I certainly won't sign up unless there's a week or two of downtime in between now and then.

[sachertorte]

I've been working on a game too, based on characters inspired by the movie-that-was-inspired-by-actual-events, Flame and Citron (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0920458/), but it is just a baby of an idea and it has been ignored for over a month now. Pleo has been gracious enough to look at the setup with me but if any of you flat out refuse to play in a game of my creation, you could help me torture the addicts. For all of my bitching when it feels like my faction has been shafted, balancing is not necessarily my forte and I think the more people who vet such things the better.

I enjoy game balance challenges. I don't promise to get it right, but I will do my best.

[special ed]

Ed, is your game open or closed?

probably closed. No reason why it couldn't be open though.


It's slated to be very different from Colorless which was completely open and..well..colorless

[Rysto]

[shameless plug]While I can't help you if you want a vanilla role, keep an eye out for the Malazan game that Hoopy, NAF, MHaye and I will be running on Idle Mafia in the next couple of weeks, after the current game finishes(I'm not spoiled, but it looks like it should be over in 1-2 weeks). It will be a game unlike any you've ever played in before: there is no Town and there is no scum. Everybody is a third-party actor out for their own win. The only teams are the ones you negotiate yourselves.[/shameless plug]

[special ed]

. *Crosses fingers for VT role*

Role: Oyster
Alignment: Town
Powers:
1. Gullibility.
2. Deliciousness.
3. Clean and neat shoes.

[special ed]

[shameless plug]While I can't help you if you want a vanilla role, keep an eye out for the Malazan game that Hoopy, NAF, MHaye and I will be running on Idle Mafia in the next couple of weeks, after the current game finishes(I'm not spoiled, but it looks like it should be over in 1-2 weeks). It will be a game unlike any you've ever played in before: there is no Town and there is no scum. Everybody is a third-party actor out for their own win. The only teams are the ones you negotiate yourselves.[/shameless plug]

I'm looking forward to this.

Watch the Ed & Meeko alliance dominate!

[special ed]

Honestly, I'd love it if someone else wanted to start up a game, because I need to redeem myself.

But, if no one does by Saturday morning (or there's a pent-up demand to hunt snarks), I'll start sign-ups for a game.

[Rysto]

I'm looking forward to this.
You have no idea how much I've been looking forward to this game. We've been working on it since September 2008.

Watch the Ed & Meeko alliance dominate!

You do realize that you guys can't do the standard "argue so damn much nobody pays attention to you anymore" thing, because the players will happily lynch you secure in the knowledge that they are not hurting their win condition, right?

[special ed]

You have no idea how much I've been looking forward to this game. We've been working on it since September 2008.



You do realize that you guys can't do the standard "argue so damn much nobody pays attention to you anymore" thing, because the players will happily lynch you secure in the knowledge that they are not hurting their win condition, right?

Yes...yes...:(

Did you see my Diplomacy game on Giraffe?

[Red Skeezix]

Yes...yes...:(

Did you see my Diplomacy game on Giraffe?

That was fun. Plus I was double crossed by the person I was double crossing!

[special ed]

That was fun. Plus I was double crossed by the person I was double crossing!

I'm just curious how similar the voting will be to that. Though I suppose I can wait to find out

[Mahaloth]

Honestly, I'd love it if someone else wanted to start up a game, because I need to redeem myself.

But, if no one does by Saturday morning (or there's a pent-up demand to hunt snarks), I'll start sign-ups for a game.

Sweet, sign me up.

And Meeko, we need to get a game of, uh, what was that called? With all the hidden rules and trading?

[Rysto]

Haggle?

[Drain Bead]

I did have you. I just couldn't convince anyone else :smack:



Mistakes that a Town player would have been unlikely to make. Town players had it foremost in their minds who was confirmed since everyone else wasn't. Your primary focus as Scum was to force a mislynch.

And part of my defense probably should have been that I was the one who pointed out that slip. Fuck.

[Meeko]

Sweet, sign me up.

And Meeko, we need to get a game of, uh, what was that called? With all the hidden rules and trading?

Haggle?

HAGGLE?!!? Where?! WHERE!? /rabid dog


Oh, uhm, uh, I don't have the time to set one up.

I will play Haggle at 3 A.M. or at 25:00, or on Feb 30,

[Drain Bead]

I suppose we should take a look at BSG. Have you been there lately?

I also have another game which is nearing finishing stages. I can probably slap it together for Monday if no one else has a game. Though I'm not sure how interested people would be in a Lewis Carroll game.

It's been a while since I've been there. I came up with the idea of how to work the roles, so I suppose we should get down to the nitty gritty of balancing it.

[Drain Bead]

Also, I just came up with another genius theme for a Mafia game...

Who's up for A Song of Ice and Fire Mafia?

[Meeko]

You guys are completely right.

Volume of posting is the litmus for scum.

We should all strive to be the top volume poster in a game. That way we can gaurantee we will not by lynched by fellow town members.






Oh Wait.



In hindsight, why did I get the boot again?

[Drain Bead]

It was partly meta-gamey. I know that as Scum, you have major issues with bussing a team member. When you didn't vote for Oredigger, it made you look scummy as hell, especially since pretty much everyone else in the thread agreed that there was no reason for a scummy Rysto to fake-counterclaim Oredigger if he were the real Doc.

Also, I thought your reaction to the masons claiming seemed like you were fishing for more of them.

Toward the end of the Day you got lynched, I was concerned that the voting for you was unanimous except for our one confirmed Town, but I figured the Scum was just trying to hide because defending you would stand out like a sore thumb when you turned up Scum.

[Meeko]

In short, "my bad" is more bad than anyone else's?

[Mahaloth]

In short, "my bad" is more bad than anyone else's?

Nah.

Hey, why aren't you ElectronicWaffle on here?

[ShadowFacts]

Lynch them all, and early. After a game or two of that, there won't be such a thing as a low-volume townie. Unless they are new.

Good luck with that. It's been tried many, many times in previous games (several by me) and it never works.

[Rysto]

"One last push! Then halt and leave the rest to me!"

The old man shook his head, yet steered the horses up the slope, then drove them hard as, hoofs churning in the mud, they strained to pull the huge carriage uphill.

Paran slowed his horse once more, caught a glimpse of the shareholders gathered round the back of the carriage, all staring at him as he reined in, directly in the beast's path.

One hundred paces.

Paran fought to control his panicking horse, even as he drev a wooden card from his saddlebag. On which scored a half-dozen lines with his thumbnail. A moment to glance up -- fifty paces, header lowering, jaws opening wide. Oh, a little close--

Two more deeper scores into the wood, then he flung the card out, into the path of the charging creature.

Four soft words under his breath--

The card did not fall, but hung, motionless.

The scaled bear reached it, voicing a bellowing roar -- and vanished.

Paran's horse reared, throwing him backwards, his boots leaving the stirrups as he slid onto its rump, then off, landing hard to skid in the mud. He picked himself up, rubbing at his behind.

Shareholders rushed down to gather round him.

"How'd you do that?"

"Where'd it go?"

"Hey, if you coulda done that any time what was we runnin' for?"

Paran shrugged. "Where -- who knows? As for the 'how', well, I am Master of the Deck of Dragons. Might as well make the grand title meaningful."

Gloved hands clapped his shoulders -- harder than necessary, but he noted their relieved expressions, the terror draining from their eyes.

Hedge arrived. "Nice one, Captain. I didn't think any of you'd make it. From what I saw, though, you left things nearly too late -- too close. Saw your mouth moving -- some kind of spell or something? Didn't know you were a mage--"

"I'm not. I was saying 'I hope this works'."

The Bonehunters, by Steven Erikson

Signups for the Mafia Game of the Fallen have begun (http://idlemafia.com/index.cgi?board=temp&action=display&thread=1349).

[special ed]

In short, "my bad" is more bad than anyone else's?

No, had anyone else done the things you did, I would have pushed to lynch them as well.

in this case, the things you did looked really Scummy.

Obviously you now know that Drain and I were Town and we pushed for your lynch. It was nothing personal.

What you did, voting for Rysto over Oredigger really really really didn't make sense from a Town point of view. I'm not sure what your motivation was. Were you trying to be different? Even after it was explained how Rysto didn't have any Scummy reasons to counter claim but Oredigger had obvious Scum reasons to claim in the first place.

I had no explanations except your desire to not bus when you are Scum.

The fishing for additional masons to claim also didn't make sense. And yet you stuck with it even after people told you why it didn't make sense.

And then, the icing on the cake, you thought Drain and I were Scum and then wanted to work out a deal with us to vote off someone else. It just seemed like a Scum looking for an angle to last another Day.

To my Townie eyes, you looked really Scummy.

[Oredigger77]

Not to mention my claimed sucked. I can't believe I had typos in both of my role posts.

[Mahaloth]

Not to mention my claimed sucked. I can't believe I had typos in both of my role posts.

Yeah, I meant to discuss this with you during the Night. You claimed before we had a doctor claim in the game, so I knew right away someone would counter claim and you would be lynched.

I guess, for some reason, I thought you were going to claim an obscure and minor power role, not doctor.

[Meeko]

Nah.

Hey, why aren't you ElectronicWaffle on here?

Not really sure I could give you an answer. No real rhyme or reason to it, and that's the long and the short of it. Didn't think too much one way or the other back then -- Nearly 8.5 years ago. (I've been here that long?!)

[Meeko]

NEFTA : Drain is a 99 er?! Wow.

Lost her Charter status? that must suck.

[Oredigger77]

Yeah, I meant to discuss this with you during the Night. You claimed before we had a doctor claim in the game, so I knew right away someone would counter claim and you would be lynched.

I guess, for some reason, I thought you were going to claim an obscure and minor power role, not doctor.

I knew I was going to get counter claimed but I figured that it was a pretty fair trade at that point since I'd played so poorly. A doc isn't nearly as powerful once they've been exposed. The way the game was set up all of the roles were traditional so I figured any off the wall claim would be immediately destroyed but at least with the Doc claim I could out him. The other thing I was considering was claiming detective and trying to claim that role names weren't linked to job but I figured that would be a stretch.

[Drain Bead]

NEFTA : Drain is a 99 er?! Wow.

Lost her Charter status? that must suck.

Never had Charter status to lose. I went on about a six or seven-year hiatus from the SDMB, and the Charter Member thing started when I was gone. I started lurking about a year before I started posting again, and it was wanting to play the Mafia games that got me back. I remember seeing a thread (in MPSIMS, I think--before The Game Room even came to be) that was like 30+ pages long, and wondering why, so I read the first page...then the second...and the next thing I knew it was time to go home from work and I hadn't gotten a damned thing done and was still only about halfway through. The next thing I know, I'm plunking down my $15 to post. Thankfully, they went back to FTP before I had to re-up.

[special ed]

If there's interest in a game over here, I can start one.

If not I can wait until a few people die on Idle.