Teacher/Student Relationship Debate...

[Freudian Slit]

Do any of you watch Boston Public? I love that show. Anyway, there are several good debates that could spawn from that oh so melodramatic TV series.

Here's one:

A male teacher meets a girl who tells him she's a college student at Harvard. They share an interest in Shakespeare, and have sex a few times. Later on, she tells him that she is really a student at the high school he teaches. She is 18. She knew all along he was a teacher at her school and has had a crush on him for a few years, and therefore sought him out. The two realize they have a somewhat serious relationship and want to pursue it.

My "great debate" is this- is it right for them to continue consumating their relationship (screwing, that is)? For one thing, the teacher is not *her* teacher- she doesn't have him. (And won't in years to come; she's a senior and will be graduating.) And second, she's old enough...if she were a college freshman or a student at another high school, it wouldn't matter if they were having sex. But is it right for them to do it under THESE circumstances?

It's not immoral, IMO, anyway. If anything it might be unethical but it doesn't appear to be...

What do the dopers think?

[Bear_Nenno]

They should probably wait until she graduates. That would be the mature thing to do. And if they really like each other they should be able to wait with no problems.

[nowalls99]

Originally posted by Bear_Nenno
They should probably wait until she graduates. That would be the mature thing to do. And if they really like each other they should be able to wait with no problems.


No offense Bear, but I just have to say this. Why do people always say that the mature thing to do is worry about what other people might think about the situation?

The way I see it, as long as both people are consenting adults, and the student in question is not enrolled in a class taught by the teacher in question, it's none of my business what they do together. Let's say the teacher is a first or second year teacher. That makes them about 22 or 23 years old. If the 18 year old student was dating and sleeping with a 23 year old college student, or a 23 year old mechanic, or any 23 year old that isn't a teacher, would anyone really care? Her parents maybe, but that's their job. But, in the OP, the situation was that she lied to him about her age, and sought him out. This means that she consented to it, and, at 18, is legally an adult. I don't see a problem with it.

[Podkayne]

Even if she doesn't have him for class, if he is a teacher at her school, he has authority over her. Also, despite the teacher being relatively young, the idea that he would have a relationship with a high school student will be troubling to many people--teachers, parents, other students . . .

There's really no good solution. Even if they wait until after she graduates, if anyone hears about their relationship, they're going to wonder about what happened when she was still a student--I knew of a situation like this IRL.

Sorry nowalls, but people don't exist in a vacuum. They can't just do whatever they want and then be surprised and think it's *sniff* so tragically unfair *sniff* when he loses the respect of his colleagues and/or his job. We can't control who we fall in love with, but we can control our actions.

And anyway, totally disregarding what anyone else would think about the relationship, I'm puzzled (yes, I have actually seen a few episodes of BP) why the teacher would want to continue an obviously freaky and unhealthy relationship that started with dishonesty and continued on to blackmail and heartbreak. Sometimes there's just a huge red flashing sign that says, "DON'T!", you know?

[RM Mentock]

Originally posted by nowalls99
No offense Bear, but I just have to say this. Why do people always say that the mature thing to do is worry about what other people might think about the situation?

I'm pretty sure Bear wouldn't take offense at that, because Bear didn't say that.

A teacher in a high school having sex with a student in a high school is going to get fired, I'm afraid, unless they work it out like Bear suggested.

[friedo]

As an aside, I have often wondered if the people who watch that show ever went to high school, or just heard about it on TV. I wish my high school experience was that exciting. :)

Anyhoo, the point about them both being concenting adults is valid, she's 18, so they're not technically doing anything illegal (though they are probably violating a school policy.)

However, if I were the teacher, I would not continue the relationship, as I have no interest in persuing a relationship entirely based on a lie.

And it would weird me out.

That's just me though.

[Mr Bear]

I think it is pretty much black and white, most schools have rules and regulations regarding this. If the rules of the school say a teacher can not have a personal nonprofessional relationship with a student, then when he finds out that she is a student, the relationship should stop, and he should report it to the school.

I have been an instructor both in the military and in civilian life, both have similiar rules. Age doesn't play a role in it. It doesn't matter what the teacher and student feel about it the school has put these rules in place to protect itself. The school does have a public image to maintain or it loses crediablity.

[PunditLisa]

Even though he's not her teacher per se, he is still a teacher in the school in which she attends. Legally,that puts him in an "en loco parentis" status, which means that he has the duty to act as a parent would and protect her...well, from people like him.

Touching her, or any student, is verboten. In fact, it's a good rule of thumb to never date anyone who is your subordinate, for obvious reasons. If he wants to keep his job, he would be wise to end the relationship and hope she doesn't talk.

BTW, I dated a substitute teacher when I was in high school. He was 22 and I was 16. (And by dating, I don't mean sleeping together.) When another teacher found out we were seeing each other, he was told to discontinue our relationship IMMEDIATELY or be fired. And he was never allowed to sub for a class which I was in again.

[erislover]

Having the incredibly liberal sexual views that I do I find that I agree with the OPoster. Legally, they shouldn't do it. Morally? I don't see a problem with it.
I watch the show too ;)
BTW, there are a lot of schools like that. I don't know how Boston public schools are, but I knew quite a few people from Cleveland public schools. One girl was at her locker when the person next to her, also at their locker, got shot in the head over an argument from the night before. This stuff happens. :(

[broccoli!]

friedo I am afraid you're hitting the nail on the head there... These shows are so pathetically unrealistic. Since when do really really hot young chicks dig dorky looking bald guys who could pass for their mid-thirties? I've never seen that.

I spit on Hollywood. ::ptooie::

punk snot dead,
broccoli!

[Ptahlis]

Originally posted by broccoli!
friedo I am afraid you're hitting the nail on the head there... These shows are so pathetically unrealistic. Since when do really really hot young chicks dig dorky looking bald guys who could pass for their mid-thirties? I've never seen that.


LOL! Yeah, when I turned 30 things changed for me too. Instead of simply being summarily dismissed after a glance from romantic consideration by hot young coeds, I became effectively invisible!

[Freudian Slit]

Well I agree...my school definitely isn't like the one portrayed on th series. (Though Adam's is.) Really we're quite pathetic in comparision with Boston P. :)

Anyway I personally hope Milton and Lisa will continue the relationship (on the show)- because that will spice things up. But in real life, it's not a good situation. Yes, there's the whole you shouldn't date your subordinate. Like i read on another thread, parole (i think?) officers aren't allowed to have sex/date their clients because even if its willing, one person could still pressure the other. In general its not fair to the person in that situation. If one person has too much power.

Though in this case, they're both relatively equal, it's not a good idea because it probably sets a bad example. That sounds corny but if they were out in the open about it, other students might find it all right to date teachers or vice versa. You wouldn't want things out of hand, is what I mean to say...

[Lamia]

Funnily enough, I have only ever seen one episode of "Boston Public" and it happened to be the one that inspired the OP.

It is inapproproate and unethical for a teacher to be romantically/sexually involved with a student. The student's age is irrelevant. Most (possibly all) colleges and universities in the US have policies prohibiting such relationships between faculty and students. Obviously almost all college students are above the age of consent; heck, some are grandparents themselves.

The real problem with such relationships is the power imbalance, not the age gap.

BTW, for those of you who didn't see the show, the student and teacher ended up getting caught in flagrante delicto in the school basement. I can understand how one might make a case for student/teacher sexual relationships being fine and dandy, but I hope that most people would agree that it is inappropriate for teachers to be having sex with students on campus.

[phouka]

Originally posted by RM Mentock
A teacher in a high school having sex with a student in a high school is going to get fired, I'm afraid, unless they work it out like Bear suggested. [/B]

Fired.

Have their teaching license revoked.

Possibly arrested, tried, and convicted (if the student is under age.)

Probably sued by the student's parents and other students.



It's a breach of ethics just the same as if a doctor slept with a patient or a drill instructor slept with a recruit. While there might, hypothetically, be some situation in which a teacher and student could have a healthy sexual relationship with no abuse of authority that didn't bleed over into the school environment and affect other students and their perception of the teacher in question, the rest of the faculty, and the school as a whole . . . it's unlikely to the point of being ludicrous.

[Jeep's Phoenix]

Hmm. As a female who was involved in a teacher/student relationship that turned into a techer-stalking-student-by-phone situation*, my first reaction would be no. My feeling is that it's completely unprofessional, whether he was her teacher or not. A teacher/student relationship should be concerned only with actual teaching or sharing of knowledge.


(* To make a long story short, my high school Western Civ College Transfer teacher was considering purchasing a computer, and wanted to call me for advice. Stupidly, I gave him my phone number. He called me at home numerous times, and when I moved to Raleigh he located my new number and continued calling me. He never asked about the computer--it was always something about "let's get together sometime, sweetheart" or some such nonsense. I finally got sick of it and told my dad, who immediately had a "talk" with the teacher. End of stalking.)

[PatrickM]

Its off topic, but it brings to mind a great line from "Hill Street Blues", when a group of Catholic high school girls visited the police station, and one detective starts drooling over the girls and his partner says, "I've got three words for you: statu, tory, rape."

[Ethilrist]

A friend of mine in college had an affair with one of her teachers; he ended up divorcing his wife and marrying the student while she was still one of his students (they had a child during that time, too...).

I think it's generally unethical, but I don't know that it had any lasting effect on this woman's college career, or his teaching career.

The big problem that high schools are trying to address is not so much "what specifically are these two people doing," but "what example are they setting for everyone else?" This is the same reason why we have No Tolerance rules... it's not that every kid with a pocketknife will stab somebody, it's that giving tacet approval for knives changes the culture of the school and the whole emotional environment they're trying to create. They would rather the kids go to a school that's choked with unrealistic rules than a school where they're in fear for their lives.

Giving tacet approval for affairs, even between adult students & their teachers, leaves the door open for people to feel that other types of relations are acceptable, and they're not.

[Doctor Jackson]

friedo says:
Anyhoo, the point about them both being concenting adults is valid, she's 18, so they're not technically doing anything illegal (though they are probably violating a school policy.)

It's most probably illegal in Georgia, anyway. Georgia has a statute that makes it illegal for anyone in a position of legal authority to have sex with a person under their authority. Consent nor age have anything to do with it. Most often this is prosecuted with respect to jailer/convict, police/detainee, etc. Though I don't know of any examples, I would assume that "en loco parentis" would make the teacher/student relationship prosecutable under the same statute.

Note: This statute does NOT apply to boss/subordinate relationships. You can still sleep your way to the top if you so desire.

[Adolph Peewee]

Originally posted by Podkayne
Even if she doesn't have him for class, if he is a teacher at her school, he has authority over her.


mmm....kinky! :D

[Freudian Slit]

Oh Adolph. Let's be serious. :)

Let me throw another question out onto the "floor." I hate that expression, actually, but what I want to ask is: Is it unethical to do something like this in college? Like, if a student and a professor sleep together? This very same situation took place in "Friends", when Ross dates a girl who was formerly his student but not anymore. He thought it was "frowned upon" but its actually school policy. Even though the girl in this case had to have been at least 18.

No...I do other things besides watch the telly...! Really! :p

[wring]

Originally posted by Zoggie
Oh Adolph. Let's be serious. :)

Let me throw another question out onto the "floor." I hate that expression, actually, but what I want to ask is: Is it unethical to do something like this in college? Like, if a student and a professor sleep together? This very same situation took place in "Friends", when Ross dates a girl who was formerly his student but not anymore. He thought it was "frowned upon" but its actually school policy. Even though the girl in this case had to have been at least 18.

No...I do other things besides watch the telly...! Really! :p

Actually that sort of thing wasn't uncommon when I went to school (1972- 76). I believe these days it's really frowned upon, definately can get folks in trouble if the student is taking a class from the professor/grad student. It isn't the age, it's the possability that the relationship isn't a totally above board choice - if I sleep with you, I'll get a better grade kind of thing (and in that case, it doesn't matter if the question is spoken - it could be argued that the student expected the better grade 'cause of it, etc.)

IMHO, it's not a good idea to have an independant power structure superimposed on a relationship (you don't give me a good grade, I can get you fired/you will flunk this class unless you sleep with me...).

[Ankh_Too]

Originally posted by Doctor Jackson
[B]

It's most probably illegal in Georgia, anyway. Georgia has a statute that makes it illegal for anyone in a position of legal authority to have sex with a person under their authority. Consent nor age have anything to do with it. Most often this is prosecuted with respect to jailer/convict, police/detainee, etc. Though I don't know of any examples, I would assume that "en loco parentis" would make the teacher/student relationship prosecutable under the same statute.
[B]

But does the school/teacher still stand "en loco parentis" for a student who is over 18 and a legal adult?

[handy]

"Georgia has a statute that
makes it illegal for anyone in a position of legal authority to have sex with
a person under their authority."

I get from the OP that the student wasn't one of the teachers own students. However, all schools in the US have laws on teacher/student relationships Im sure that fall also under sexual harrassment.

[Geek Mecha]

I'm a psychology tutor at the university. I teach as many as four fifty-minute classes that each meet once per week. We tutors do the introductory psychology classes, and we run the entire show ourselves; there's no professor or TA there to back us up. We also assign homework and give out grades. In short, we have the same basic job that most professors do. (Yes, I know, professors do a lot more than that, but just go along with me here.)

In the beginning of each semester, we are given a speech about why it's important that we not date our students. Nothing unusual about that; we're about the same age they are, and it has happened in the past. The reason we're given why we're forbidden from having relationships with our students is because it would interfere with the perception of the objectivity we're supposed to have in evaluating our students. It doesn't matter if we're fair, honest people who would never let a romance get in the way of being fair to begin with; it's the perception of our impartiality that counts. The fear is not so much that the student half of the couple would get better grades than they deserved, but that others in the class would think that they were.

Of course, once the semester's done and the grades are submitted, we're free to collect as many phone numbers as we can get.:D

Whether it is ethical for us to date our students at all is never discussed.

[handy]

I knew a french professor who would have sex with some of his students. I asked him what he gave them in the class & he said "A" & added, 'but they were already 'A' students'..yeah, right...

[SuperNova]

Originally posted by nowalls99

The way I see it, as long as both people are consenting adults, and the student in question is not enrolled in a class taught by the teacher in question, it's none of my business what they do together. Let's say the teacher is a first or second year teacher. That makes them about 22 or 23 years old. If the 18 year old student was dating and sleeping with a 23 year old college student, or a 23 year old mechanic, or any 23 year old that isn't a teacher, would anyone really care? Her parents maybe, but that's their job. But, in the OP, the situation was that she lied to him about her age, and sought him out. This means that she consented to it, and, at 18, is legally an adult. I don't see a problem with it.

I had a situation similar to this in my school. A senior and a young teacher. To make a long story short, now they are both teachers at my school, and are married. They took four years off while she was at college.
The relationship they had while she was a student is a widely circulating rumour that is almost certainly true, but it was a well kept secret while she was a senior, and now (at least to me) it seems pointless to fire sometone for a relationship that developed so much.

[flavius]

I don't have time to fully expound on this one right now, but I will suggest that many of our neuroses and anxieties in the western world come from the unnatural constraining and repression of sexuality. The Polynesians had one of the happiest, most carefree societies on the Earth before whitey came barging in with compulsory christianity and the dreaded missionary position. And...some of the most exciting...spiciest, if you will, sexual exchanges arise from CONTRAST. A horny 40 year-old making it with a horny 18 (or 16!) year old is a blast for both parties. We have the technology, but we (at every age level) lack the emotional maturity and freedom to properly enjoy our brief stay in this world.
I know if I could have done it with one of my hot teachers back in HS it would've been great for me and hopefully her (or them!) as well. Let's get hands-on with sex-ed as if it were any other exciting art or craft (since it's both!)
.....All right prudes, blast away!!!

-Flavius.

[Freudian Slit]

:confused: Flavius...please tell me you're not serious? I'm not quite sure how to respond.

In answer to what you said, I really don't think it's right for a sixteen year old to be having sex with a forty year old. Maybe both want it, but the problem of the teacher having authority over the student overcomplicates it...

[SuaSponte]

Originally posted by broccoli!
friedo I am afraid you're hitting the nail on the head there... These shows are so pathetically unrealistic. Since when do really really hot young chicks dig dorky looking bald guys who could pass for their mid-thirties? I've never seen that.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Dammit, I say that if Courtney Cox would marry David Arquette, there is still hope (and Rogaine) for me!!

Sua

[Freudian Slit]

Okay i've been watching BP and it turns out that the student in question- Lisa- wants to transfer to another school so that it will be legal for her and Milton Buttle (said teacher) to date.

However, he's afraid of what people will think. Will people suspect that they were dating before she transferred, that kind of thing. The whole "how will it look" vs. "it's perfectly legal!" thing is coming up. Of course, it came up sooner on the board, but we can't expect a lowly television show to be as on the ball as we are.

Just thought i'd post an update.

[Rosebud]

Somewhat tangental comment on the OP-- Lisa's character seems to be written as a bit of a bitch, or maybe manipulator is a better word; I'm thinking of the attitude she cops when approached by other teachers. Granted the behavior of some of the teacher characters is eons away from real, acceptable teacher behavior (was it last week that the one guy walked up to Lisa and said something like, "So, are you sleeping with Milton?"), but I think the writers may be trying to add an extra twist here. She's not made out to be some starry-eyed girl; she obviously has quite a strong will of her own.

That said, I wanted to comment on what AudreyK said about the perception of impartiality. I work for Columbia University, and last time I checked, our policy on this subject stated that not only is actual impropriety to be avoided, so is the appearance of impropriety. I've known people who had jobs that involved no direct impact on students' academic records, yet they were flat out told that they could not date students, because it would look bad.

One thing I've been wondering as I've watched recent BP episodes is whether or not the other teachers who know what's going on will be held accountable in any way for not reporting it. They are essentially covering up a major breach of policy. Sorry if that sounds like a hijack!

[Freudian Slit]

I'm thinking of starting a Boston Pub Discussion Thread. So that I can talk about a lot of non debate stuff.

Yeah, I was wondering. Kevin Riley knew about it from (almost) the beginning. And he said he wasn't sure what he'd do...I'm wondering if he'll get fired?

I don't think Lisa was a bitch. i thought she was pretty mature, good looking, and smart. A nice contrast from (IMHO) Dana Poole, a true uber-bitch. I thought the writers were trying to show her as a normal person. Though lying to Milton wasn't exactly a great thing, I agree. Still, it's just a TV program and I rather like her as a character. Hmmm. Better start that Discussion thread soon...