Religious women, leave me the fuck alone, please.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

In my recent internet dating, I've gone on a spate of first-dates (usually a nominal cup of coffee, typically a little more than that--appetizer, a little dessert) with women who reveal their religious mania during the course of our date, which of course is for me (literally and figuratively) "Check, please" time.

Can these women not read? I'm usually up-front in my self-description, always checking off "Non-religious," "Don't believe," "Atheist" or whatever is the most extreme option, but I've been going out with the women who self describe as anything besides "devout [whatever]" on the grounds that until I talk to her, she may be a Catholic who thinks the Pope is big dummy, or a Jew who loves shrimp salad, which is fine with me, though not ideal. IOW, I don't need a hardcore atheist--or do I?

Do I need to be even more obnoxious than I already am, and rant a little bit about my extreme views? That seems foolish, to devote more than half my wordage to my (lack of) religious views, but maybe I need to scare these religious ladies off more ferociously than I've been doing. Or do I need to screen more carefully, and reject categorically anyone who has any religious views whatever?

On Good Friday, I went out with a nice woman who described herself blandly as "Catholic," which in Brooklyn could mean almost anything, and learned that she went to Mass every Sunday, wanted a guy who would accompany her in body and spirit to her church, whose family was even more religious than she was, who felt guilty over her sometimes lack of fervour for Jesus Christ, and I wanted to say "And what exactly made you think that someone who self-describes as 'non-religious' is going to make a good boyfriend/husband for you?"

I once dated a woman who revealed to me, three months into dating, that she wanted me to meet her priest to discuss converting to Christianity, this after asking her (on our first date) if she had a problem with dating an atheist, and got a laughing, "No, no, of course not, live and let live." Talk about your utter wastes of time.

[AClockworkMelon]

Nearly all the girls I've dated have been religious in one way or another. A few have even been what you could describe as "devout," but it's never really interfered with our relationships. They'll say they're Lutheran or Mormon or this or that, but in the end there's plenty of premarital sex, sodomy and general decadence. I guess I corrupt them. :rolleyes:

I once dated a woman who revealed to me, three months into dating, that she wanted me to meet her priest to discuss converting to Christianity, this after asking her (on our first date) if she had a problem with dating an atheist, and got a laughing, "No, no, of course not, live and let live." Talk about your utter wastes of time.

This made me laugh. How awkward that must've been. I've had girls try to gently push me towards Christianity but none of them were so open as to their intentions.

I wish you luck in finding the atheist or non-practicing Christian/Muslim/Pagan, etc of your dreams.

:p

[Mk VII]

You could always advertise for a Devil-worshipper. Less of the old 'Get thee behind me, Satan' and more 'come on in, buddy, and grab a cup of coffee'.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

in the end there's plenty of premarital sex, sodomy and general decadence. I guess I corrupt them. :rolleyes:



:p

The sex with the woman who tried to get me to convert was pretty awful sex, all full of guilt and misgivings on her part. In fact, that's how the subject of talking to her priest was broached, with her telling me that she had to confess to having pre-maritial sex every week, and him asking if I could come in and talk to him about her "problem" (ie, getting laid.)

it's a tricky line, being upfront about my views, which basically are "If you shut up about it, you can believe whatever you want to, and so can I"--but that policy now seems to me somewhat passive, allowing them to think that I'll be tolerant of more than just thinking. The woman I took out last friday, for example, explained to me that of course she knew in her heart that jesus Christ was the saviour of mankind, and so felt terrible whenever she doubted that for a split-second. I don't think it occurred to her that I might be thinking "Well, of course, not everyone accepts your premise, and a better response to doubt might be to explore that doubt more deeply." But that would be the mildest sort of atheist proselytizing, and who wants that thankless job? So I kept my silence, but now I'm thinkng I need to speak up sooner, and more adamantly, on this subject, if only to spare myself minutes and maybe months of being with a totally wrong person for me.

[Malacandra]

Stick to hardcore atheists, I'd say. You'd have a shared hobby that way, as well as her not wasting time trying to drag you along to church. Even the mildest believer is probably going to have some absurd urge to attend divine service once in a while, and may well think it would be nice if her S.O. came along. If that's what you define as "religious mania", you'd do well to head that off before the first date.

[Linty Fresh]

In my recent internet dating, I've gone on a spate of first-dates (usually a nominal cup of coffee, typically a little more than that--appetizer, a little dessert) with women who reveal their religious mania during the course of our date, which of course is for me (literally and figuratively) "Check, please" time.

Yeah, it was for me too. Nothing against their beliefs, but I was never really that devout, and sooner or later it would interfere with our relationship. Also, the I-put-out factor for those women tends to be below the mean. (Hey, whaddya want? I was in my early 20's.)

Can these women not read? I'm usually up-front in my self-description, always checking off "Non-religious," "Don't believe," "Atheist" or whatever is the most extreme option, but I've been going out with the women who self describe as anything besides "devout [whatever]" on the grounds that until I talk to her, she may be a Catholic who thinks the Pope is big dummy, or a Jew who loves shrimp salad, which is fine with me, though not ideal. IOW, I don't need a hardcore atheist--or do I?

Nahhh, the only hardcore thing you really need or want in a relationship is rough, nasty sex--unless you're into bungee jumping. Or hang gliding. Or bungee jumping from a hang glider while having rough, nasty sex (you fucking weirdo). I'm sure if you keep trying you'll run into one of those women you mentioned. Mrs. Fresh is a believer, but she doesn't go to church, and she's hell and gone from devout. While religion comes up in the conversation, actual belief never really does.

Personally, I don't think I'd want to date a fervent atheist. I'd prefer a woman who devoted her passion to her art or her hobbies or the aforementioned sex. Militancy turns me off. It smacks of . . . militancy.

Do I need to be even more obnoxious than I already am, and rant a little bit about my extreme views? That seems foolish, to devote more than half my wordage to my (lack of) religious views, but maybe I need to scare these religious ladies off more ferociously than I've been doing. Or do I need to screen more carefully, and reject categorically anyone who has any religious views whatever?

No and no and no. Control the situation; don't let the situation control you. Most women are turned off by obnoxiousness in any form, and you want to stay the fuck away from the ones who aren't. I got hitched before Internet dating took off, so I'm no expert, but it seems to me that including anything pissy--or, Dog help you, scary--in your description will keep away women you might like, not just the holy rollers, while leaving you with women who will make you pine for the Miss Godfull MacBoilabunny's you've been seeing.

Look, I know it's frustrating. I can understand why you're pissed off. Most of us--guys and girls--have been right where you are now. Just remember that dating is a numbers game. You must know that there are plenty of nice women who are religious without being weird about it or atheists without being nudges about it. Keep doing what you're doing, and you'll find them.

[AClockworkMelon]

The sex with the woman who tried to get me to convert was pretty awful sex, all full of guilt and misgivings on her part. In fact, that's how the subject of talking to her priest was broached, with her telling me that she had to confess to having pre-maritial sex every week, and him asking if I could come in and talk to him about her "problem" (ie, getting laid.)I guess I'm a horrible person. I've had girls voice their feelings on this and I never particularly cared. I told them I thought what they believed was silly and that I'd continue doing as I pleased and so should they. Haven't had a bad reaction to that approach yet.

it's a tricky line, being upfront about my views, which basically are "If you shut up about it, you can believe whatever you want to, and so can I"--but that policy now seems to me somewhat passive, allowing them to think that I'll be tolerant of more than just thinking. The woman I took out last friday, for example, explained to me that of course she knew in her heart that jesus Christ was the saviour of mankind, and so felt terrible whenever she doubted that for a split-second. I don't think it occurred to her that I might be thinking "Well, of course, not everyone accepts your premise, and a better response to doubt might be to explore that doubt more deeply." But that would be the mildest sort of atheist proselytizing, and who wants that thankless job? So I kept my silence, but now I'm thinkng I need to speak up sooner, and more adamantly, on this subject, if only to spare myself minutes and maybe months of being with a totally wrong person for me.I don't know what's causing you in particular to run into all these zealous women. Like I said, I've dated plenty of religious girls but they've never done more than gentle nudging, which I ignored.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

what's causing you in particular to run into all these zealous women.

Bad luck, I think. I never ran into them particularly until the last few years, and I've been in relationships (with non-religious women) most of that time, so it's only a handful but I wish they'd fuck off, and stop lying to themselves (and to me) about their open-mindedness.

[AClockworkMelon]

Bad luck, I think. I never ran into them particularly until the last few years, and I've been in relationships (with non-religious women) most of that time, so it's only a handful but I wish they'd fuck off, and stop lying to themselves (and to me) about their open-mindedness.Are you finding that you're finding most of these girls on any particular dating site? Maybe that site is a nest of such women.

[Clothahump]

Next time one starts in on you with that nonsense, ask her if there is a god. If she says yes, ask her to provide proof of the existence of a god of any kind. Tell her that when she can, there will be a second date.

[AClockworkMelon]

Next time one starts in on you with that nonsense, ask her if there is a god. If she says yes, ask her to provide proof of the existence of a god of any kind. Tell her that when she can, there will be a second date.Given that he said he's been getting caught with a bunch of these women, I think giving ultimatums like that will just prevent him from ever going on dates.

[Bryan Ekers]

Do I need to be even more obnoxious than I already am

Give it a shot - nothing's impossible.


Kidding. I suggest getting a Darwin fish lapel pin, or just be even more specific in your description, adding words like "hardcore" and "humorless" to "atheist".

[Gfactor]

Moved from The BBQ Pit to Mundane Pointless Stuff I Must Share with no offense intended to the OP.

Gfactor
Pit Moderator

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

You can't take Clothy seriously--he's just pulling my leg. But I can screen better for signs of religious mania, and i need to.

[Gfactor]

Tell her that when she can, there will be a second date.

Nonsense. Tell her you'll untie her. :p

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I don't know that there's anything you can do to ward of the proselytizers completely. I think a lot of them see a professed lack of religious belief as a minor flaw which they can fix -- or even worse, as a challenge. I think it's possible you've been a little too passive about making your own position very clear for fear of sounding obnoxious. In my single days (which predated the internet), I never worried about it. I was happily upfront, if the subject came up, that I didn't have the slightest belief and never would. I wouldn't try to talk them out of anything, but I made it clear that I wasn't a candidate for conversion.

I think that a lot of them don't really grasp that you mean it when you say you'e an atheist. They just think that you're being ornery, that you don't like going to church, that maybe you don't know anything about religion, etc. They think it's something they can "clean up," the way they think they'll get you to cut off your goatee and wear different shirts. I got them to back off (one way or the other), once it was clear to them that my lack of religious belief was genuine, considered and non amenable to change. Some of them tried to debate me (including my wife when we were first dating) but quickly discovered they were in over their heads.

My wife and I eventually agreed to just let it drop. I wouldn't bother her, she wouldn't bother me, and that's worked out fine for 20 year, but she was never super devout in the first place, and doesn't think I need to be a believer to go to Heaven.

Another woman, before I met my wife, told me I should leave my band and play my guitar "for the Lord." I never called her again.

[Bryan Ekers]

Another woman, before I met my wife, told me I should leave my band and play my guitar "for the Lord." I never called her again.

Thus missing your chance to be Mister Tammy Wynette.



And now you know the rest of the story....

[Ca3799]

You are making the same mistake the women you are dating are making (wow- three "are"'s- Do I get fined or something?), so I'm not sure why you are blaming just them.

You date someone who says she's a Catholic because you don't know 'how Catholic' she is.

She (they) are dating a non-theist because they don't know 'how non-theist' you are.

And you both wonder if the other can be converted.

Isn't that what dating is all about- finding out about the other person?!

[Polycarp]

Given the thread title:

Religious woman, get away from me
Religious woman, mama let me be
Don't come knocking around my door
I don't want ya to witness to me no more
You sure know how to theologize
But I don't believe me none of those lies
Now woman, get away
Religious woman, listen what I say

[AClockworkMelon]

You date someone who says she's a Catholic because you don't know 'how Catholic' she is.Uh huh.

She (they) are dating a non-theist because they don't know 'how non-theist' you are.There aren't scales of atheist. You're either an atheist or you're not.

And you both wonder if the other can be converted.He doesn't seem interested in converting these women at all.

Isn't that what dating is all about- finding out about the other person?!Nah.

[MichaelEmouse]

Uh huh.

There aren't scales of atheist. You're either an atheist or you're not.

He doesn't seem interested in converting these women at all.

Nah.



I agree with all your pithy replies except the "nah". What do you think dating is about if not finding out about the other person?

[BorgHunter]

There aren't scales of atheist. You're either an atheist or you're not.
This sounds awfully "No True Scotsman" to me. This being sociology we're talking about, of course there are scales and flavors of nontheism, skepticism, and atheism.

[AClockworkMelon]

I agree with all your pithy replies except the "nah". What do you think dating is about if not finding out about the other person?Companionship.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Just to be clear, I've happily dated women who identified as religious of some stripe or other, and gotten along fine with them (and still do) with religious issues not arising at all, mainly because "jewish" did mean to them "I'll eat pork and never attend synagogue and what's shabbas again?" but also "My parents were Jewish, and I'm culturally definied that way but know nothing and care less about what you believe", and Catholics and other christians who felt similarly about religious doctrine, and was happy to extend the same courtesy to them. This isn't a thread about religion, as I see it, but about dishonesty in on-line dating.

I mean, I doubt friend Clothy would be quite as smug if I described my problem as "I'm a hard-core conservative, and say so clearly, but all these left-wing women keep answering my ads, and then after a few dates start mentioning how they want me to attend their socialist rallies with them, and telling me how important politics are to them--can't these women read? What do they think 'conservative' means?"

[Oy!]

Back in my internet dating days, I had a big fat Atheist in the part of the profile where it wanted "Religion." I got responses from guys who had user names like Bob4Jesus. I'd send back a response saying "I'm an atheist; I don't really think there's any potential here." Three months later I'd hear again from the same user names. These guys obviously weren't paying attention to anything I had in my profile other than gender and (probably) general age. I didn't include a picture, so it wasn't like they were after my looks. They were just broadcasting interest to anyone who might have the right biology, presumably in order to get laid.

I basically stopped accepting on-line inquiries from anyone who had anything other than Atheist or Agnostic as their religion, because I realized that although I might miss out on the occasional person who went to church on Christmas and Easter because they'd been brought up to do so and liked the music, on the whole I didn't want to date badly enough to bother with people whose stated world view was so alien to my own. To me, religious beliefs don't differ qualitatively from, say, a belief in astrology. I have real trouble respecting the holder of such beliefs, at least enough to consider a romantic relationship with him.

So, pseudotron, if you feel the way I do, rather than strengthening your own profile, I'd be more selective in the people you choose to hook up with. In the U.S. these days, Christianity seems to be largely dominated by an evangelical mindset; even the Catholics now have their Bible studies and their "charismatic" prayer groups. If you want to avoid such, you're better off simply not trying to date people who self-identify as believers.

[Slithy Tove]

This thread makes me wonder which would be a better deflection of the OP's plight?

(a) "I'm sorry, but although I respect your right to your own beliefs, I've spent my life learning and forming my own convictions on the matter, and I must live my life without religious beliefs or practices so I can be true to myself."

(b) "Uh-Huh. Well, religion bores the living shit out of me. Really."

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

You are making the same mistake the women you are dating are making (wow- three "are"'s- Do I get fined or something?), so I'm not sure why you are blaming just them.

You date someone who says she's a Catholic because you don't know 'how Catholic' she is.

She (they) are dating a non-theist because they don't know 'how non-theist' you are.

And you both wonder if the other can be converted.

Isn't that what dating is all about- finding out about the other person?!

Zero interest in proselytizing. None. Woman wants to attend services? That's a few hours I can sleep in, work on a painting, run on the beach--no problem. Problems arise when they want to discuss anything that assumes a religious framework for the discussion. But if she's religious and can keep her beliefs to herself, which some nominally religious people can, we're good. But as stated, maybe I need to be clearer about own views, so to weed out women who think I may have more give than I do, and to screen better, rejecting out of hand anyone who describes herself as religious in any way.

Dio, the proselytizers are not the problem--they're just funny, and sorta rare. The problem is the women who think they'll be happy with a self-described atheist, and then are astonished to find he has no interest in attending church with them. Religion almost never needs to come up in conversation--if someone doesn't mention it, I'll quickly forget it even exists. But they keep mentioning it as if it's as healthy and natural as bean sprouts and get all astonished when I say "No, thanks, I've already had all I can take. If I have any more, I'll get all gassy."

[Slithy Tove]

The problem is the women who think they'll be happy with a self-described atheist, and then are astonished to find he has no interest in attending church with them.

Here down South, women know men think religion is bullshit, and many think it's bullshit themselves. But it somehow proves that the man is "tamed," and so if a guy wants regular sex, he has to put up with it.

[salinqmind]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs6qBZtMGgQ about 44 seconds in. :D The whole clip is hilarious!!!

[elfkin477]

PRR, what exactly does your profile say about your lack of beliefs? A great many women like men that they think they can "fix" men and you might be attracting women who think they can fix your problem with God. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these women responded to you precisely because you don't believe - if you believe you should be out spreading the good news targetting someone who states a lack of belief probably feels more effective than the scatter gun approach of chatting up random people in hopes of getting lucky. You're probably be happier only accepting dates from women who check off lack of belief in their profiles too.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

This sounds awfully "No True Scotsman" to me. This being sociology we're talking about, of course there are scales and flavors of nontheism, skepticism, and atheism.
There are no degrees of atheism. You either believe in gods or you don't. There is no scale of "don't." Belief cannot be more or less absent. If you have any belief at all, you're not an atheist. You can't be a little bit pregnant.

[BorgHunter]

There are no degrees of atheism. You either believe in gods or you don't. There is no scale of "don't." Belief cannot be more or less absent. If you have any belief at all, you're not an atheist. You can't be a little bit pregnant.
I think there's quite a bit of difference between A) some hypothetical guy living on an island somewhere, who's never even heard of religion, B) a guy with irreligious parents who's never really thought of the subject that much, but nevertheless with no belief in a deity, C) Richard Dawkins, and D) Jean-Paul Sartre. All are/were atheists. They are atheists to different degrees and for different reasons. A and B could conceivably be "converted" more easily than C and D.

[AClockworkMelon]

I think there's quite a bit of difference between A) some hypothetical guy living on an island somewhere, who's never even heard of religion, B) a guy with irreligious parents who's never really thought of the subject that much, but nevertheless with no belief in a deity, C) Richard Dawkins, and D) Jean-Paul Sartre. All are/were atheists. They are atheists to different degrees and for different reasons. A and B could conceivably be "converted" more easily than C and D.Dawkins isn't more of an atheist than someone who has never heard of religion. Neither of them are religious. The ease at which they can be converted has more to do with their education, comparative ignorance and societal pressure, not "how atheist" they are. If someone is a self-described atheist and yet is open to conversion, it's likely that person was an agnostic.

[Broomstick]

And what exactly made you think that someone who self-describes as 'non-religious' is going to make a good boyfriend/husband for you?"
They want to save you. I think the Christians get greenstamps or something for every person they drag to the baptismal font or something. Karmic brownie points. Whatever. The point is, some of these women are dating you under false pretenses to save you.

Others are probably just nuts.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

This discussion has taken a funny turn, from my POV. If I go on about my atheism (they just give a space, sometimes a drop-down menu, to choose a brief phrase), I'm a full-on nutter, ranting and raving inappropriately about my anti-religion agenda on a site about my attractiveness as a potential S.O. (which I may do because it will weed out all the religious women better) BUT if I don't rant and rave, just say that I'm an atheist, then I'm inviting all sorts of interactions with women who don't understand what "atheist" means.

[Justin_Bailey]

There are no degrees of atheism. You either believe in gods or you don't. There is no scale of "don't." Belief cannot be more or less absent. If you have any belief at all, you're not an atheist. You can't be a little bit pregnant.

There are at least two degrees of atheists. Well, more like types.

One doesn't believe in god and that's it. You don't know they're an atheist and they don't care if you believe anything. Very similar to how most religious people treat their religious beliefs.

The second kind is one that tut tuts any religious belief with mocking terms like "bearded sky fairy" or "storybook tales" or blah blah blah.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Also, about 75% of the women whose photos show a lot of cleavage are also women who self-describe as "Catholic." Just an observation. Most of them turn out to be not very religious Catholics, but some women who try to entice witih a good view of the cleavagey areas are extremely devout.

[Oy!]

This discussion has taken a funny turn, from my POV. If I go on about my atheism (they just give a space, sometimes a drop-down menu, to choose a brief phrase), I'm a full-on nutter, ranting and raving inappropriately about my anti-religion agenda on a site about my attractiveness as a potential S.O. (which I may do because it will weed out all the religious women better) BUT if I don't rant and rave, just say that I'm an atheist, then I'm inviting all sorts of interactions with women who don't understand what "atheist" means.
My point is that if you don't want to date evangelical women, then you probably should simply steer clear of dating self-avowed religious woman, cleavage or lack there-of notwithstanding.

[AClockworkMelon]

There are at least two degrees of atheists. Well, more like types.

One doesn't believe in god and that's it. You don't know they're an atheist and they don't care if you believe anything. Very similar to how most religious people treat their religious beliefs.

The second kind is one that tut tuts any religious belief with mocking terms like "bearded sky fairy" or "storybook tales" or blah blah blah.That has nothing to do with how much of an atheist those people are. That's an indicator of personality.

[Justin_Bailey]

That has nothing to do with how much of an atheist those people are. That's an indicator of personality.

Exactly.

When PRR is wondering if he should restrict his dating to just atheists (and others in this thread that have suggested it), they're falling into the same trap. I'm "religious" only in the sense that I believe in god. I never go to church, I never talk about my belief or my immortal soul and I never try to convert atheists. Yet, the mere fact that I'm a theist seems to actively irritate some of the atheists I know.

This is the same situation.

[Jackmannii]

Back in my internet dating days, I had a big fat Atheist in the part of the profile where it wanted "Religion."She wanted to witness some more, but I told her, "no!"
You done proselytized me once
You done proselytized me once
Said if you want to preach don't mess with a big fat atheist
We'll never get on down
Huh!

Chorus:
You ain't gonna bump no more with no big fat atheist
You ain't gonna bump no more with no big fat atheist

(apologies to Joe Tex)

[Covered_In_Bees!]

My point is that if you don't want to date evangelical women, then you probably should simply steer clear of dating self-avowed religious woman, cleavage or lack there-of notwithstanding.

In my online dating experience, a lot of women just answer Christian or Catholic or whatever without being a "hardcore" religious nut. Kind of as an obligation or homage to how they were raised without actually believing it or taking it that seriously as an adult.

Point being, some women/people will merely say they're of a religion without being devout or sometimes without even really believing.

Trust me, if you're on a dating site and you restrict yourself to the people that specifically say atheist on their profile, you stand better chances of meeting someone somewhere else.

[elmwood]

Stick to hardcore atheists, I'd say.

This.

I'm Jewish, but lean agnostic. I would like a partner that can live with some of the more ritualistic and cultural aspects of my faith; a mezuzah on the front door frame, lighting Hanukkah candles and occasionally Shabbat candles, and maybe joining me for a Passover seder. I'm not out to convert anyone from Christianity or non-belief to Judaism. More hardcore atheists, I've found, want to live in a completely secular environment, with no expressions of faith or belief whatsoever in their living environment.

It sounds like the OP is meeting some very religious women. How would he feel about a partner that wasn't all that religious, but wanted a Christmas tree, attended church every few weeks or on major holidays, or hid chocolate for the kids on Easter Sunday?

I also wonder how the OP is finding so many uber-religious women. In my online dating adventures, I met mostly run-of-the-mill Catholics, Protestants, Jews and atheists. If a woman wrote, and her profile is filled with God this, Jesus that, and/or Virgin Mary something else, I sent a polite rejection letter. The dates I've had with women that turn out to be fervently religious (usually either very devoutly old-school Catholic, megachurch evangelicals, or hardcore sects like JW) are usually fix-ups or real word encounters.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

elmwood you're a man? :eek:

[Oy!]

In my online dating experience, a lot of women just answer Christian or Catholic or whatever without being a "hardcore" religious nut. Kind of as an obligation or homage to how they were raised without actually believing it or taking it that seriously as an adult.

Point being, some women/people will merely say they're of a religion without being devout or sometimes without even really believing.

Trust me, if you're on a dating site and you restrict yourself to the people that specifically say atheist on their profile, you stand better chances of meeting someone somewhere else.
Then perhaps prr's best bet is to say on his profile "I like having a Christmas tree/Hannukah bush/Easter basket/whatever traditional celebration, and I don't mind if you believe, but I have NO interest in religion. Ever." and call it a day.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

I also wonder how the OP is finding so many uber-religious women.
Like I said, mostly bad luck. This is a recent phenomenon, and is amusing me when I step back a little, but frustrating me when I'm actually out on a date and realize that, No, I can't date this pretty woman because she's a total nutbag.

[elmwood]

Like I said, mostly bad luck. This is a recent phenomenon, and is amusing me when I step back a little, but frustrating me when I'm actually out on a date and realize that, No, I can't date this pretty woman because she's a total nutbag.

Here's some text I used in my online dating profile under "religion" that I think might have filtered out the thumpers and frums.

"I'm open to meeting those of any belief, or none. We won't be a good match if you're evangelical or want to 'save' me, though."

[Ace Weederman]

There aren't scales of atheist. You're either an atheist or you're not.



Well, as a few others have noted, there are different types on atheists philosophically, due in part to the fluid definition of atheist. There's "strong vs. weak" and "implicit vs. non-implicit," for starters.

For example, I suppose I'd best be described as a "weak atheist," though many would call me agnostic. Of course, that brings in it's own set of choices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism#Types_of_agnosticism). (That said, I don't like the word "weak" associate with my non-religious beliefs.)

I don't think you should attempt to define your atheism in your profile, PRR. It's probably something to broach slightly in email communication. But it sounds like you're doing it right with the drop down menu choices, etc. This is a tricky part of compatibility, and I think you've just hit a bad patch of luck.

[Rigamarole]

Stick to hardcore atheists, I'd say. You'd have a shared hobby that way

You would? What is the "shared hobby" of atheists, exactly?

[AClockworkMelon]

Well, as a few others have noted, there are different types on atheists philosophically, due in part to the fluid definition of atheist. There's "strong vs. weak" and "implicit vs. non-implicit," for starters.

That has nothing to do with how much of an atheist those people are. That's an indicator of personality.

There is no such thing as a non-practicing atheist. We have no church to attend, no rituals to perform. Anything that an atheist does, besides not believing in God, is driven by that person's personality.

[Rushgeekgirl]

Well it doesn't hurt to keep your options open. My Mig was a devout Catholic when we met but I've since corrupted him. He didn't even shave his head and go to Mass this year for Easter!

[Alice The Goon]

I think that a lot of them don't really grasp that you mean it when you say you'e an atheist. They just think that you're being ornery, that you don't like going to church, that maybe you don't know anything about religion, etc. They think it's something they can "clean up," the way they think they'll get you to cut off your goatee and wear different shirts.



Yeah. I've taken to adding disclaimers with my self-description as atheist- 'and I am serious about it. I've researched it and everything. I've made up my mind.' I've tried to date Christians, and have found it's rarely as easy as 'live and let live'. Sometimes I can't help but to scorn things I find not only silly but destructive, and also I've been known to ask Christian horndogs what part of the Bible okays premarital sex for them. They don't tend to like that. :p

[Ace Weederman]

There is no such thing as a non-practicing atheist. We have no church to attend, no rituals to perform. Anything that an atheist does, besides not believing in God, is driven by that person's personality.

(Sorry, I can't figure how to get your whole post quoted in this reply...:confused:)

Yes, respectfully, I heard you upthread the first time when you mentioned personality in response to Justin Bailey's comment about whether an atheist "tut tuts" believers or not. And I agree that's a personality difference.

But are you saying there's no philosophical difference between, say, strong and weak atheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Strong_vs._weak)?

[Ace Weederman]

Here's some text I used in my online dating profile under "religion" that I think might have filtered out the thumpers and frums.

"I'm open to meeting those of any belief, or none. We won't be a good match if you're evangelical or want to 'save' me, though."

Awesome, elmwood! I think that's perfect for PRR's situation. Though I would recommend putting that in an early email as opposed to his profile

[Diz]

You would? What is the "shared hobby" of atheists, exactly?

Kicking down nativity scenes, giving the finger to drivers with religious bumper stickers, telling little kids there's no heaven and that their dead grandparent is just a hunk of rotting meat...

You know, the usual stuff ;)

[AClockworkMelon]

(Sorry, I can't figure how to get your whole post quoted in this reply...:confused:)

Yes, respectfully, I heard you upthread the first time when you mentioned personality in response to Justin Bailey's comment about whether an atheist "tut tuts" believers or not. And I agree that's a personality difference.

But are you saying there's no philosophical difference between, say, strong and weak atheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Strong_vs._weak)?Sorry about that, when I saw someone else mention strong vs weak my brain immediately interpreted it as aggressive or passive atheism.

I'd interpret atheism as "the non-belief in the divinely supernatural." I won't expand that to include non-divinely supernatural at this point, but I've never met an atheist who believed in magic, etc.

Maybe someone here can explain it to me, but I don't see how this makes sense:

I'm a weak atheist. I don't believe that deities exist. Yet I refuse to say that I believe the following to be false: "There is at least one god." If you don't think think that that statement is false, that means you believe that there is at least one god. That means you DO believe that deities exist.

[twickster]

It seems to me that the discussion of "are there degrees of atheism" belongs in a different thread, probably in Great Debates. The issue here is getting PRR laid.

twickster, MPSIMS moderator

[Covered_In_Bees!]

The issue here is getting PRR laid.

Psst, PRR, make your move now while she's still receptive! ;)

*shoves PRR towards twickster inconspicuously*

[GIGObuster]

Also, about 75% of the women whose photos show a lot of cleavage are also women who self-describe as "Catholic." Just an observation. Most of them turn out to be not very religious Catholics, but some women who try to entice witih a good view of the cleavagey areas are extremely devout.
Tempters for Christ? :)

I really wonder how they explain their behavior, they think it is OK to commit a sin if that will lead to save a few infidels?

[Rigamarole]

Kicking down nativity scenes, giving the finger to drivers with religious bumper stickers, telling little kids there's no heaven and that their dead grandparent is just a hunk of rotting meat...

You know, the usual stuff ;)

Hm, I like your style.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

Hm, I like your style.

Yeah me too. We should arrange some kind of National Atheist-Only Dopefest to practice our hobbies together. We can discuss nativity scene kicking techniques and strategies. How long we like to hold our middle finger up when flipping someone off and so on.

[AClockworkMelon]

Tempters for Christ? :)

I really wonder how they explain their behavior, they think it is OK to commit a sin if that will lead to save a few infidels?I've asked this of some of the... more sexual of the Christians I've dated. An all too common response?

"Well, I'm human and I know that I'm not perfect."

What an excuse! I'm glad they make it. ;)

[Mona Lisa Simpson]

This is interesting to me. I grew up in a very liberal Christian tradition, (United Church of Canada) although my family were regular attenders (oh 90% of Sundays during the year and about a third of them in the summer) When I went to highschool I first encountered the more conservative evangelical type of Christians, which actually pushed me into the atheist camp for a while.

However, since my early upbringing gave me a socially progressive view of Christianity and encouraged critical thinking I cannot really disown belief. I don't attend church currently, but I am loosely adhered to my parents' church, I go a few times a year, (didn't go on Easter but had vauge intentions on that front) my son attends Sunday school. If I worked less weekends, or was trying to make connection with a new peer group I would probably start attending. However, I could care less if you are agnostic, atheist, Jewish or Zoroastrian, and unless it is a theological discussion about good and evil please keep your beliefs to yourself.

My boyfriend is a lapsed Roman Catholic, (French Canadian RC) who attends mass only on Christmas eve if we are at his Dad's. However, he has a very strict conservative view of religion...aka detests guitar played at services, all informal services and Evangelical Protestantism (two of his brothers have gone this route) and falls into a "if you are going to do it, do it RIGHT (traditional RC mass or similar) or not at all." He even gripes that Christmas eve midnight mass is not at midnight any more.

We have mild disagreements on the sending my son to Catholic school based on my Protestant horror of "dead Jesus on a stick" in every classroom. I usually counter with, ok if you are willing to take the boy to mass and be responsible for first communion and all that, then sure, we will switch school boards. He drops it. Fast.

Out of curiousity, out of the two types of lapsed not attending semi-believers would you be more willing to date? (The fact that my boyfriend is a straight male notwithstanding, imagine a woman with similar views.)

Or, would you find either of us too hard-core religious and make the first date the last?

(Note not meant to antagonize. It is something I wonder about.)

[AClockworkMelon]

This is interesting to me. I grew up in a very liberal Christian tradition, (United Church of Canada) although my family were regular attenders (oh 90% of Sundays during the year and about a third of them in the summer) When I went to highschool I first encountered the more conservative evangelical type of Christians, which actually pushed me into the atheist camp for a while.

However, since my early upbringing gave me a socially progressive view of Christianity and encouraged critical thinking I cannot really disown belief. I don't attend church currently, but I am loosely adhered to my parents' church, I go a few times a year, (didn't go on Easter but had vauge intentions on that front) my son attends Sunday school. If I worked less weekends, or was trying to make connection with a new peer group I would probably start attending. However, I could care less if you are agnostic, atheist, Jewish or Zoroastrian, and unless it is a theological discussion about good and evil please keep your beliefs to yourself.

My boyfriend is a lapsed Roman Catholic, (French Canadian RC) who attends mass only on Christmas eve if we are at his Dad's. However, he has a very strict conservative view of religion...aka detests guitar played at services, all informal services and Evangelical Protestantism (two of his brothers have gone this route) and falls into a "if you are going to do it, do it RIGHT (traditional RC mass or similar) or not at all." He even gripes that Christmas eve midnight mass is not at midnight any more.

We have mild disagreements on the sending my son to Catholic school based on my Protestant horror of "dead Jesus on a stick" in every classroom. I usually counter with, ok if you are willing to take the boy to mass and be responsible for first communion and all that, then sure, we will switch school boards. He drops it. Fast.

Out of curiousity, out of the two types of lapsed not attending semi-believers would you be more willing to date? (The fact that my boyfriend is a straight male notwithstanding, imagine a woman with similar views.)

Or, would you find either of us too hard-core religious and make the first date the last?

(Note not meant to antagonize. It is something I wonder about.)
I know this wasn't directed at me, but at the OP, but I figured I'd answer.

I'd date you, sure. I've dated girls who are similarly religious. But I wouldn't ever want to settle into a long-term relationship with you and I'd know that I would never, say, marry you.

[Malacandra]

They want to save you. I think the Christians get greenstamps or something for every person they drag to the baptismal font or something. Karmic brownie points. Whatever. The point is, some of these women are dating you under false pretenses to save you.

Others are probably just nuts.

Not greenstamps, no. It's just that Xians are the kind of assholes who, if they think they know the path to eternal life and happiness, figure it would be nice to share it. You or I wouldn't pull a stunt like that, obviously - best to just yuk it up over the poor hellbound saps gonna fry for ever on Beelzebub's griddle, amirite?

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

out of the two types of lapsed not attending semi-believers would you be more willing to date?
You, in a second, even without the issue of the proper equipment.

[Enginerd]

Not greenstamps, no. It's just that Xians are the kind of assholes who, if they think they know the path to eternal life and happiness, figure it would be nice to share it. You or I wouldn't pull a stunt like that, obviously - best to just yuk it up over the poor hellbound saps gonna fry for ever on Beelzebub's griddle, amirite?

Yeah. Cause clearly, those are the only two options. :rolleyes:

[F. U. Shakespeare]

As DtC and others have noted, it is effing rude for religious people to believe that atheists know we're wrong, but are somehow lazy or ignorant, and just need our rebelliousness worn down.

I once had a colleague who was religious (and also African-American). When the subject of religion came up once, I made the mistake of trying to find common ground: I told her that one thing I admired about Jesus was the way he treated humble people grandly and spoke up to powerful people.

She responded, "Sounds like you're not as atheist as you think - maybe one day, you'll come around". I didn't know it was possible to combine faulty logic so seamlessly with arrogant condescension, and it took all my self-discipline to keep from responding, "Thank you for saying that. And maybe, one day, you'll wake up white".

[cosmosdan]

I think believers and non believers can date and get along fine if their feelings for each other include a real respect for each others belief system.

I won't try to convert you

I won't mock your beliefs


You also have to know what to talk about and what not to talk about, and keep your sense of humor. crack a few "going to hell" and "pink unicorn" jokes knowing you still hold each other in high regard and deep affection.

[AClockworkMelon]

I think believers and non believers can date and get along fine if their feelings for each other include a real respect for each others belief system.

I won't try to convert you

I won't mock your beliefs


You also have to know what to talk about and what not to talk about, and keep your sense of humor. crack a few "going to hell" and "pink unicorn" jokes knowing you still hold each other in high regard and deep affection.I don't particularly see why something should be respected simply because someone believes it. I might not mock the person if I respect them, but it certainly won't be because I have any respect for the belief system itself.

[luv2draw]

On Good Friday, I went out with a nice woman who described herself blandly as "Catholic," which in Brooklyn could mean almost anything, and learned that she went to Mass every Sunday, wanted a guy who would accompany her in body and spirit to her church, whose family was even more religious than she was........

I think this woman was either putting you on or otherwise being disingenuous about her faith. Good Friday is the most solemn holy day of the Catholic calendar. It is traditionally a day of fasting and penance. Doubt very much someone seriously religious would be going out on a date.

[cosmosdan]

I don't particularly see why something should be respected simply because someone believes it. I might not mock the person if I respect them, but it certainly won't be because I have any respect for the belief system itself.

I didn't say it should. If you feel strongly and lose respect for their intelligence or whatever because of their belief system then chances are a romantic relationship isn't going anywhere.

I'm talking about respecting their right to choose their own path and repecting and caring for them as a person besides.

I dated a religious lady. I liked her because she was a terrific person, honest, compassionate, smart, and funny, considerate and caring toward others. I didn't agree with or necessarily respect the religious beliefs themselves but honored her right to work that out in her own way and in her own time.

[missred]

I feel your pain, brother!

As an agnostic woman who's done the internet dating thing, I get responses from guys that figure it will be easier to get laid with a godless heathen. I am very cautious about going out with men whose profile lists anything but atheist or agnostic. When I do, I'm on high alert.

Figure out what common clues the religious women have given you and be on the lookout for them. 'S all I got.

[Mona Lisa Simpson]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but at the OP, but I figured I'd answer.

I'd date you, sure. I've dated girls who are similarly religious. But I wouldn't ever want to settle into a long-term relationship with you and I'd know that I would never, say, marry you.

May I ask why? I believe in evolution, same sex marriage, married, divorced or gay clergy of either sex, the Bible as an ok example of ways of living (but it was written a whole long time ago and is full of stuff that is NOT OK NOW) and I am currently shaked up with someone without benefit of clergy. My church had a moderator who questioned the divinity of Christ.

So what would make you say Im not long term material? The fact I have some faith, or the fear you would be somehow dragged into my occasional forarys into church attendance? Interestingly in three years I have attended 2 catholic masses with the boyfriend and he has gone to one service (funeral) at my parents church.


(And Im not offended, because if you can't get with my low level religiousness, I respect that. I broke up with a guy who turned out to be a closet conservative southern baptist when I found out we disagreed on oh, pretty much anything religious, and his solution was that he would pray I saw the light. Also Im pretty content with my life and partner at present.)

[Mona Lisa Simpson]

I feel your pain, brother!

As an agnostic woman who's done the internet dating thing, I get responses from guys that figure it will be easier to get laid with a godless heathen. I am very cautious about going out with men whose profile lists anything but atheist or agnostic. When I do, I'm on high alert.

Figure out what common clues the religious women have given you and be on the lookout for them. 'S all I got.

Like I said in my earlier post I broke up with a fundamentalist.

[Mona Lisa Simpson]

Ooops missed most of my post. The crux (ha!)of the matter was the fundamentalist was upset someone gave his niece a toy dinosaur. I took the evolutionist side, he disagreed, said I was going to Hell, (but he'd pray I'd be saved). Broke up with him within hours and never looked back.

So yeah, dating people even those who say they don't go to church can be tough.

[GuanoLad]

You should come to Australia. Nobody gives a shit about religion down here.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

I've been. It was, uh, heaven.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

You should come to Australia. Nobody gives a shit about religion down here.

Isn't that true about most of Europe also? I know that at least The Netherlands has a very low percentage of religious folk.

[gonzomax]

You are a great target. Women look at men as a project. They want to change you. When you say you are an atheist, you are ringing a Pavlovian bell.I can change him to see the light.

[BigT]

I just wish I could find these people. All the women I meet online say they are religious, but then don't show it.

Also, I find that the whole "must be a Christian" thing is often less of a religious construct but a social one. Most Catholics I know aren't very true to their beliefs, but they expect you to convert to Catholicism to marry them.

[Cat Whisperer]

<snip>

I'm talking about respecting their right to choose their own path and repecting and caring for them as a person besides.

I dated a religious lady. I liked her because she was a terrific person, honest, compassionate, smart, and funny, considerate and caring toward others. I didn't agree with or necessarily respect the religious beliefs themselves but honored her right to work that out in her own way and in her own time.
In my experience of dating a fundamentalist, I discovered it was a one-way street - I was to respect his beliefs, but I would not be afforded the same respect (I identify closest with agnostic). It wasn't immediately obvious, but after awhile it became obvious that he was working on converting me eventually (with the occasional flare-up of giving me a hard time when I was acting particularly un-Christianly). I concluded that religious compatibility was one of the critical keys for a successful long-term relationship.

For the record, I married a lapsed Catholic, and religion is NEVER an issue between us.

[Martini Enfield]

You should come to Australia. Nobody gives a shit about religion down here.

This would be my suggestion too. ;)

[Nava]

The sex with the woman who tried to get me to convert was pretty awful sex, all full of guilt and misgivings on her part. In fact, that's how the subject of talking to her priest was broached, with her telling me that she had to confess to having pre-maritial sex every week, and him asking if I could come in and talk to him about her "problem" (ie, getting laid.)

Ah, see, she was stupid. There are places in Spain where, until very recently, you could tell which girls had gotten boyfriends because, since everybody who was having Comunion would have Confession beforehand, and since a girl with a boyfriend was having premarital sex (people there did not get married until, in their charming words, "the cow had proven fertile"), girls with boyfriends stopped taking Comunion.

What she should have done is stop confessing the premarital sex (she was going to do it again anyway, which made the confession invalid) and get a video edition of the kama sutra.

[cosmosdan]

In my experience of dating a fundamentalist, I discovered it was a one-way street - I was to respect his beliefs, but I would not be afforded the same respect (I identify closest with agnostic). It wasn't immediately obvious, but after awhile it became obvious that he was working on converting me eventually (with the occasional flare-up of giving me a hard time when I was acting particularly un-Christianly). I concluded that religious compatibility was one of the critical keys for a successful long-term relationship.

For the record, I married a lapsed Catholic, and religion is NEVER an issue between us.

Well, religious lady and I did go our separate ways and I suspect her congregation had something to do with it. She , at one point, was all gung ho for a more serious committed relationship and I wanted to slow down and make sure those differences wouldn't become a constant pain. IOW, lets not assume one of us will eventually come around because it probably won't happen. I can accept that you go to church every Sunday and are involved in other ways. I can accept that you don't drink or smoke dope. Don't give me or my friends any crap because we occasionally do. Don't invite me to Bible study and then be concerned about the questions I asked. and maybe you should top praying at every prayer meeting that I'll see the light. I think I've already seen it which is why I don't believe the way I used to.
I kept encouraging her to decide for herself and stop asking someone in her congregation what was right. Eventually she decided we were to different to continue even though she obviously liked being with me. Too bad because there was some good chemistry there.

[cosmosdan]

In my experience of dating a fundamentalist, I discovered it was a one-way street - I was to respect his beliefs, but I would not be afforded the same respect (I identify closest with agnostic). It wasn't immediately obvious, but after awhile it became obvious that he was working on converting me eventually (with the occasional flare-up of giving me a hard time when I was acting particularly un-Christianly). I concluded that religious compatibility was one of the critical keys for a successful long-term relationship.

For the record, I married a lapsed Catholic, and religion is NEVER an issue between us.

Come to think of it though, the same thing happened to my daughter. She dated a very nice religious boy who gradually became to critical and controlling concerning her friends and how much time they spent with them.
When he told her he didn't think she should be spending time with one of her long time friends he got the boot.

[Autolycus]

You want them to leave you alone, but keep the fuck. Or maybe you'd forgo that too. I don't have any personal experience to add, except that OKC has levels of seriousness in their religion section, and I avoid anyone who is "... and serious about it" in their column.

[MostlyClueless]

Isn't that true about most of Europe also? I know that at least The Netherlands has a very low percentage of religious folk.


Oh, absolutely. I think that for most dutchies, 'agnostic' would be the default option.

[wombatinspats]

Come and live in Australia, 'the most Godless place under heaven'. It's cool, we're mostly heathens. I've certainly never even been to church.

[lshaw]

Oh, absolutely. I think that for most dutchies, 'agnostic' would be the default option.

Same here in Japan.

[AClockworkMelon]

May I ask why? I believe in evolution, same sex marriage, married, divorced or gay clergy of either sex, the Bible as an ok example of ways of living (but it was written a whole long time ago and is full of stuff that is NOT OK NOW) and I am currently shaked up with someone without benefit of clergy. My church had a moderator who questioned the divinity of Christ.

So what would make you say Im not long term material? The fact I have some faith, or the fear you would be somehow dragged into my occasional forarys into church attendance? Interestingly in three years I have attended 2 catholic masses with the boyfriend and he has gone to one service (funeral) at my parents church.


(And Im not offended, because if you can't get with my low level religiousness, I respect that. I broke up with a guy who turned out to be a closet conservative southern baptist when I found out we disagreed on oh, pretty much anything religious, and his solution was that he would pray I saw the light. Also Im pretty content with my life and partner at present.)Oh, no. It has nothing to do with an inability to mesh with your religious beliefs. I wouldn't be comfortable with you teaching my children to believe what I find delusional.

But I've been in short term relationships with religious girls and I didn't mind it. A few even said they would pray for me and it didn't make me particularly uncomfortable at all. One girl I dated who was really religious told me she'd be willing to let me dictate the raising of children however I wanted, lol. I'm not sure if it was because of the misogynistic Christian upbringing that she endured (she believes women experience pain in childbirth as punishment for Eve's sin) and was thus willing to let her male partner have complete control or if she was simply lying to me.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

You know, I also believe that "women experience pain in childbirth as punishment for Eve's sin," at least metaphorically. The sin of knowledge of good and evil is, basically, the difficulties caused by man's ability to think of moral and ethical considerations, which comes from our advanced brain capacity, which in turn causes childbirth to be so damned painful. When our brains were chimpanzee size or smaller, I think we droppped babies like turds, as most animals do, so this is one thing that the Bible (dumb luck?) got right.

Hope this doesn't get me drummed out of the hardcore atheists' union.

[AClockworkMelon]

You know, I also believe that "women experience pain in childbirth as punishment for Eve's sin," at least metaphorically. The sin of knowledge of good and evil is, basically, the difficulties caused by man's ability to think of moral and ethical considerations, which comes from our advanced brain capacity, which in turn causes childbirth to be so damned painful. When our brains were chimpanzee size or smaller, I think we droppped babies like turds, as most animals do, so this is one thing that the Bible (dumb luck?) got right.

Hope this doesn't get me drummed out of the hardcore atheists' union.Actually, the reason why childbirth is so much more painful for humans than it is for animals is because unlike most animals our legs are located underneath our torsos, not on the sides of our torsos. Super painful childbirth is a direct result of our transition from walking on four legs to two.

The more you know.

[Shakester]

I'm also Australian, but I wouldn't say no-one gave a shit about religion here. There are some hard-core religious types here, it's just that they're very much in the minority compared to the US.

Plenty of churches have literally gone out of business here, which makes me proud to be an Australian, but the country isn't free of superstitious nonsense yet, by any means, and plenty of the people who would identify as agnostic believe in homeopathy and similar bunkum. Magical thinking is alive and well here, unfortunately.

[Mona Lisa Simpson]

Oh, no. It has nothing to do with an inability to mesh with your religious beliefs. I wouldn't be comfortable with you teaching my children to believe what I find delusional.



Fair enough.

Oh, absolutely. I think that for most dutchies, 'agnostic' would be the default option.

[Anecdote is not data] Most "Dutch Canadians" I know, at least the immigrant generation and some of their first generation children are very religious, the whole Dutch reformed Church protocols and elders visiting to ask why you don't go to church, and so forth. I have a friend who didn't dance or listen to secular music until university [/anecdote is not data]

[dhkendall]

Not greenstamps, no. It's just that Xians are the kind of assholes who, if they think they know the path to eternal life and happiness, figure it would be nice to share it. You or I wouldn't pull a stunt like that, obviously - best to just yuk it up over the poor hellbound saps gonna fry for ever on Beelzebub's griddle, amirite?

Reminds me of a quote from a comedian (paraphrase, as it's been a long time since I heard it):

"I'd have people come up to me and say 'I was strung oiut on booze, I was strung out on drugs, but now I've found Jesus, and I'd like to share him with you!' 'What for? You never shared your booze or drugs with me ... '"

I think believers and non believers can date and get along fine if their feelings for each other include a real respect for each others belief system.

I won't try to convert you

I won't mock your beliefs

You also have to know what to talk about and what not to talk about, and keep your sense of humor. crack a few "going to hell" and "pink unicorn" jokes knowing you still hold each other in high regard and deep affection.

Golden Rule definitely applies here ("Do unto others as you would have them do unto you") - I wouldn't want hardcore atheists mocking my beliefs (even though they're more enlightened than most Christians I know), so I have no business mocking theirs. IMHO that's one part of the Bible that, if nothing else, I hope everyone can grok and follow. I have nothing but the utmost respect for my fellow Dopers that are atheist but not condescending about it (which is prit near everyone in this thread so far) and helps me shape my belief system in turn.

[Really Not All That Bright]

just stick to fuckin' em.

[Clothahump]

I mean, I doubt friend Clothy would be quite as smug if I described my problem as "I'm a hard-core conservative, and say so clearly, but all these left-wing women keep answering my ads, and then after a few dates start mentioning how they want me to attend their socialist rallies with them, and telling me how important politics are to them--can't these women read? What do they think 'conservative' means?"

There was nothing smug about my response. That is what I would do if I were in your place in the situation you described in the OP. If your scenario changed to what I quoted above, my response would be along the same lines: Babe, if you can show me any logic or intelligence behind your socialistic beliefs, there will be a second date. Or something similar.

[Ferret Herder]

[Anecdote is not data] Most "Dutch Canadians" I know, at least the immigrant generation and some of their first generation children are very religious, the whole Dutch reformed Church protocols and elders visiting to ask why you don't go to church, and so forth. I have a friend who didn't dance or listen to secular music until university [/anecdote is not data]
From what I've been told - I have no info to prove it, but it seems to be the case anecdotally and from my own ancestry - the Dutch who left the Netherlands for elsewhere, at least historically, left because they were more religious than their fellow countrymen, and wanted to move somewhere for religious freedom. That is, the freedom to be more strict in their religious practices. I came from a pretty strict religious background and am descended from Dutch who emigrated to the US.

[elmwood]

It's just that Xians are the kind of assholes who, if they think they know the path to eternal life and happiness, figure it would be nice to share it.

Off-topic, but really? All Christians? All denominations? I think there's some selection bias involved among the accusations by nonbelievers that most Christians are always proselytizing and trying to save them.

The evangelicals and megachurchers that qualify everything with "Christian", who try to lead a lifestyle that is as free of secular aspects as possible, maybe. Run-of-the-mill mainstream Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, Methodists, Presbyterians, United Church of Christ congregants, Quakers, and the like ... not from what I've experienced. Mainstream Christians generally don't try to inject their faith or the word "Christian" into every conversation. It's the mainstream and lapsed Christians that are actually in the vast majority throughout most of the country outside of Utah and the deep South, and they seldom, if ever evangelize or make much noise.

Around here, because the population is so Catholic (~75% of the population; WNY is far more Catholic than Utah is Mormon), conservative Catholicism is far more prominent than in other parts of the country. While Catholicism strongly flavors the area's culture and built environment, I've never had a Catholic evangelize or try to convert me, or impose their lifestyle on me. The most obnoxious behavior tends to be assuming I'm Catholic too ("So, what parish do you belong to?", "It's Friday! Why are you eating meat today?") or unsolicited advice to pray to some saint. Dating was a challenge, because there's a large percentage of conservative Catholics who will only date other Catholics. Still, I'll take the Hail Mary Loop Channel on the basic cable tier, Mary on the Half Shell displays, and the barrage of stories in the media about the church and Diocese over Southern-style evangelism.

[Cat Whisperer]

From what I've been told - I have no info to prove it, but it seems to be the case anecdotally and from my own ancestry - the Dutch who left the Netherlands for elsewhere, at least historically, left because they were more religious than their fellow countrymen, and wanted to move somewhere for religious freedom. That is, the freedom to be more strict in their religious practices. I came from a pretty strict religious background and am descended from Dutch who emigrated to the US.
I was thinking that was the case, too - I am also descended from Mennonites who were mostly Dutch who came to Canada for more religious freedom.

Canada doesn't sound as religion-free as Australia, but at least we have the sense to make religion a private issue here - nobody knows how religious we actually are. :)

[elmwood]

As an agnostic woman who's done the internet dating thing, I get responses from guys that figure it will be easier to get laid with a godless heathen. I am very cautious about going out with men whose profile lists anything but atheist or agnostic. When I do, I'm on high alert.

So, if someone doesn't self-identify as agnostic or atheist, they're foaming-at-the-mouth Bible-thumping evangelists out to convert and save you, Muslims who end every sentence with "God willing", or Orthodox Jews who mumble in Hebrew and daven non-stop as if they're autistic?

Why do many non-believers think the only type of Christians out there are the uber-religious conservative evangelical variety? Do they see little old ladies carrying casseroles to their Lutheran-Missouri Synod church ladies guild meeting as foaming fundamentalists? Do they go so far as to see the stocky gray-haired women leaving a UU service in their Subarus and Honda CRVs as screaming Bible thumpers?

[Monstera deliciosa]

Not greenstamps, no. It's just that Xians are the kind of assholes who, if they think they know the path to eternal life and happiness, figure it would be nice to share it. You or I wouldn't pull a stunt like that, obviously - best to just yuk it up over the poor hellbound saps gonna fry for ever on Beelzebub's griddle, amirite?

Off-topic, but really? All Christians? All denominations? I think there's some selection bias involved among the accusations by nonbelievers that most Christians are always proselytizing and trying to save them.

The evangelicals and megachurchers that qualify everything with "Christian", who try to lead a lifestyle that is as free of secular aspects as possible, maybe. Run-of-the-mill mainstream Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, Methodists, Presbyterians, United Church of Christ congregants, Quakers, and the like ... not from what I've experienced. Mainstream Christians generally don't try to inject their faith or the word "Christian" into every conversation. It's the mainstream and lapsed Christians that are actually in the vast majority throughout most of the country outside of Utah and the deep South, and they seldom, if ever evangelize or make much noise.

< rest of post snipped for brevity>

Elmwood, I think you misunderstood the nature of the sarcasm in Malancandra's post. He is a non-fundamentalist Christian; in fact if I recall correctly, he is a church organist. From what I've seen, he is quite offended (and perhaps feels a wee bit persecuted) by the attitude toward Christianity he perceives here at the dope. I believe the hyperbole in his post was his way of striking back at us uncharitable, ungrateful non-believers.

[Mona Lisa Simpson]

I was thinking that was the case, too - I am also descended from Mennonites who were mostly Dutch who came to Canada for more religious freedom.

Canada doesn't sound as religion-free as Australia, but at least we have the sense to make religion a private issue here - nobody knows how religious we actually are. :)

True. My friend's parents came over in the 1950's and they still have a war-time mentality. Apparently, when her mother used to go back to the Nederlands to visit family, her language, behaviour and attitudes branded her as old fashioned, even with her siblings of similar age who remained there.

And in Canada, yes there are Christians of all stripes but having The United Church of Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_church_of_canada) as the major Protestant denomination gives our flavour of Christianity a more left-leaning feel. Of course individual churches vary, my parents go to a rather grey-haired elegant stuffy church attended mainly by upper middle class and wealthier people in the city, very formal in dress and manner, while I briefly attended St Augustine's UC (http://http://augustineunitedchurch.org/) in Winnipeg where not only were they blessing same sex partnerships before legalization in Canada but they are very social justice oriented, and open to almost anything. (One woman used to wear a leather skirt, corset and fetish boots to church on Sunday. With a camoflage print jean jacket over her corset.

Sorry PRR, hope we are not hijacking too much

[AClockworkMelon]

True. My friend's parents came over in the 1950's and they still have a war-time mentality. Apparently, when her mother used to go back to the Nederlands to visit family, her language, behaviour and attitudes branded her as old fashioned, even with her siblings of similar age who remained there.

And in Canada, yes there are Christians of all stripes but having The United Church of Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_church_of_canada) as the major Protestant denomination gives our flavour of Christianity a more left-leaning feel. Of course individual churches vary, my parents go to a rather grey-haired elegant stuffy church attended mainly by upper middle class and wealthier people in the city, very formal in dress and manner, while I briefly attended St Augustine's UC (http://http://augustineunitedchurch.org/) in Winnipeg where not only were they blessing same sex partnerships before legalization in Canada but they are very social justice oriented, and open to almost anything. (One woman used to wear a leather skirt, corset and fetish boots to church on Sunday. With a camoflage print jean jacket over her corset.

Sorry PRR, hope we are not hijacking too muchNo, you aren't hijacking at all. You've given PRR some valuable insight: He should move to Canada.

[Malacandra]

Elmwood, I think you misunderstood the nature of the sarcasm in Malancandra's post. He is a non-fundamentalist Christian; in fact if I recall correctly, he is a church organist. From what I've seen, he is quite offended (and perhaps feels a wee bit persecuted) by the attitude toward Christianity he perceives here at the dope. I believe the hyperbole in his post was his way of striking back at us uncharitable, ungrateful non-believers.

Oh, I don't expect anyone to be grateful, but a little charity never hurt. Some Christians are more given to proselytising than others; for me, I tend to heed the advice about casting pearls before swine. It's just that Broomstick's snark about greenstamps was wide of the mark, although there are certainly some folks - I may be right about JWs, but I'm not one and wouldn't presume to speak for them - who do have a positive duty to go out and seek converts, if not for greenstamps then for some other direct reward AIUI. For the rest of us, it's purely altruistic. And like I say, what would you have us do who think we know how to get to Heaven? Keep it to ourselves? That would make us look better in your eyes? :dubious:

Monstera deliciosa, you remember right - a fact I don't think I've mentioned all that often. :)

[The Great Sun Jester]

You want them to leave you alone, but keep the fuck. Or maybe you'd forgo that too. I don't have any personal experience to add, except that OKC has levels of seriousness in their religion section, and I avoid anyone who is "... and serious about it" in their column.
Really, all the multiple choice categories should have a "... and serious about it" option so that they can be screened out more easily.

As for Salamanderman's problem, when I was doing OK Cupid one of my first chat questions was, "When was the last time you went to church?" I was just as likely to cross someone off the list if they said, "All religion is a steaming pile of crap" as I was someone who said, "Last Sunday, and every Sunday for the last 30+ years." I'm not a believer, but I also don't need belligerence in my life. The one gal I was really getting serious with had answered something like, "Every time I go hiking." Made my heart skip. But then I met evlkitty whose idea of church is a well-appointed garage.

[missred]

So, if someone doesn't self-identify as agnostic or atheist, they're foaming-at-the-mouth Bible-thumping evangelists out to convert and save you, Muslims who end every sentence with "God willing", or Orthodox Jews who mumble in Hebrew and daven non-stop as if they're autistic?

Why do many non-believers think the only type of Christians out there are the uber-religious conservative evangelical variety? Do they see little old ladies carrying casseroles to their Lutheran-Missouri Synod church ladies guild meeting as foaming fundamentalists? Do they go so far as to see the stocky gray-haired women leaving a UU service in their Subarus and Honda CRVs as screaming Bible thumpers?

Living at the buckle of the bible belt (mid-south USA), my chances of a man listing himself as Christian gives me about a 45% chance that, yes, he is a foaming at the mouth evangelist type, a 45% chance that he is a "backslider" who will use his religion when it suits him (the ones mentioned who view going out with an agnostic as a better chance to get laid) and about a 10% chance that he is a more reasonable mainstream or theologically liberal Christian. Face it, the odds aren't good.

Other religions have their own issues (much of the time, more cultural) that make their practicioners an ill suited match for me for the most part.

I'm not saying that I hate all religious folks, I'm just saying that the vast majority who list one on a singles site are not a good match for me. Like the OP, I just wish they'd leave me the fuck alone.

[Anne Neville]

So, if someone doesn't self-identify as agnostic or atheist, they're foaming-at-the-mouth Bible-thumping evangelists out to convert and save you, Muslims who end every sentence with "God willing", or Orthodox Jews who mumble in Hebrew and daven non-stop as if they're autistic?

Why do many non-believers think the only type of Christians out there are the uber-religious conservative evangelical variety?

If you don't go to church/synagogue/temple/whatever, the only people you're likely to see and know what religion they are are people whose religion is obvious to the casual observer. That's your constantly-davening Orthodox Jews, your Bible-thumping Christians, and so on.

If you met me in person, you probably wouldn't know I was Jewish, unless I happened to be wearing some Judaica jewelry (which I do sometimes, but not every day).

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

No, you aren't hijacking at all. You've given PRR some valuable insight: He should move to Canada.

This is actually enough of a hijack to be worthy of its own thread entirely, but I am in fact (I think) already a Canadian citizen, and need to find documentation
of my father's having been born there to make it official. I also applied for a job a few years ago teaching at the U. of Sydney (did an on-campus interview) and would have applied for Ozzie citizenship if I'd gotten it. I'd love to live somewhere where religion wasn't nearly made so big a deal as here.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

I just put something in my profile like "if you're religious and want to discuss the bible, don't bother contacting me because you won't like what I have to say".

Seems to have worked. I've not been contacted again :D

[Superfluous Parentheses]

From what I've been told - I have no info to prove it, but it seems to be the case anecdotally and from my own ancestry - the Dutch who left the Netherlands for elsewhere, at least historically, left because they were more religious than their fellow countrymen, and wanted to move somewhere for religious freedom. That is, the freedom to be more strict in their religious practices. I came from a pretty strict religious background and am descended from Dutch who emigrated to the US.

Also, the US and especially Canada are/used to be (for the last 50 years or so) popular emigration targets for Dutch farmers - the land is far cheaper and the farms are much bigger. Dutch farming is not a very profitable business proposition - pretty much all farmers over here can only afford to run a farm because they inherited the land. And AFAIK religiousness is higher for rural Dutch. Farmers are the most reliable voters for the (mainstream) Christian party.

OTOH a (low-level religious) farmer friend of mine spent a few months working on a farm in Canada, and was completely horrified by their fundamentalism.

[dhkendall]

And in Canada, yes there are Christians of all stripes but having The United Church of Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_church_of_canada) as the major Protestant denomination gives our flavour of Christianity a more left-leaning feel. Of course individual churches vary, my parents go to a rather grey-haired elegant stuffy church attended mainly by upper middle class and wealthier people in the city, very formal in dress and manner, while I briefly attended St Augustine's UC (http://http://augustineunitedchurch.org/) in Winnipeg where not only were they blessing same sex partnerships before legalization in Canada but they are very social justice oriented, and open to almost anything. (One woman used to wear a leather skirt, corset and fetish boots to church on Sunday. With a camoflage print jean jacket over her corset.

Not only individual churches may vary, but, as always, YMMV depending on what you've been exposed to. I'm a Winnipegger as well (holy crap, there's a lot more Peggers here than I thought!) but since we moved here 30 years ago we've attended a church that at least is labelled "evangelical" - the church makeup has a good portion of Mennonites in it (the core, longtime membership of the church anyways, I think we were spun off of a Mennonite church) and I'm acquainted with a few "bible thumpers", most are somewhere between "keep it to yourself" and "bible thumping evangelizer". We're also a larger church (much larger than St. Augustine if I know that church at all), and there's a few other larger churches in the city like ours (but without the evangelical label). Our statement of faith, by the way, is here (http://www.wefc.net/home/about_us/what_we_believe/) to give you an idea. (And no, I don't agree with all of it, but the cool thing about my church is that they're quite willing to have me there, and I'm quite willing to serve where I can (primarily in the drama ministry) and 90% of the stuff that's preached there I feel isn't off base at all.

Now, coming from that background, I've always thought Winnipeg was a bit on the conservative side, and I've always known about the relatively large Mennonite population in Winnipeg and southern Manitoba that adds to our conservatism. That's why I've been surprised to find Christian newspapers that I've found are more left-leaning than I thought our church was in the church, plus a good buddy of mine is a missionary sponsored by our church and also seems to be a bit more left leaning than the average adherent here. (I am of course more of the "social justice" Christian than the "convert em all" Christian)

[Mona Lisa Simpson]

Not only individual churches may vary, but, as always, YMMV depending on what you've been exposed to. I'm a Winnipegger as well (holy crap, there's a lot more Peggers here than I thought!) but since we moved here 30 years ago we've attended a church that at least is labelled "evangelical" - the church makeup has a good portion of Mennonites in it (the core, longtime membership of the church anyways, I think we were spun off of a Mennonite church) and I'm acquainted with a few "bible thumpers", most are somewhere between "keep it to yourself" and "bible thumping evangelizer". We're also a larger church (much larger than St. Augustine if I know that church at all), and there's a few other larger churches in the city like ours (but without the evangelical label). Our statement of faith, by the way, is here (http://www.wefc.net/home/about_us/what_we_believe/) to give you an idea. (And no, I don't agree with all of it, but the cool thing about my church is that they're quite willing to have me there...

Emphasis mine.

I am actually back in Thunder Bay right now, but I lived in Winnipeg for a year and a half or so in '99-2000. I happen to LOVE Winnipeg (not a popular opinion, I know) and I always figure I will end up back there some day. In the mean time I visit when I can.

Anyway your last sentence really resonates with me. When I was 8 years old, I asked the minister of our UC church if Adam and Eve were cave people, and where did dinosaurs fit in. The minister though for a moment then sat down with me and replied that they probably were like cave people, but these stories were written down a long time later and not all the facts are necessarily what happened. And that the different "days" in the bible could be considered times between ice ages and dinosaurs didn't make the bible because nobody in the days of writing down the Bible really knew about them, or about radio carbon dating.

Years later I was in a teen youth group and we actually talked with one of the Moderators, (I cannot remember if it was Robert Smith or Clarke McDonald) I told this story of my childhood questions. He told me "Never stop asking questions." This is probably the main reason why I am still (an irregular) church attendant, and not an atheist.

[Eva Luna]

This is actually enough of a hijack to be worthy of its own thread entirely, but I am in fact (I think) already a Canadian citizen, and need to find documentation
of my father's having been born there to make it official. I also applied for a job a few years ago teaching at the U. of Sydney (did an on-campus interview) and would have applied for Ozzie citizenship if I'd gotten it. I'd love to live somewhere where religion wasn't nearly made so big a deal as here.

If you know where he was born, just file a request for a copy of his birth certificate, and you might be surprised what the authorities can manage to dig up, even with incomplete or partially incorrect information. My grandmother was born in Winnipeg, and through a long and convoluted series of circumstances I even had her birth name wrong (thuogh I did have her date of birth and her parents' names), and they still managed to unearth her birth certificate. You can find info on where to write away here (http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/reciprocity/reciprocity_3531.html#docs) (scroll down to the Country Documents section).

[control-z]

I've dated a few religious girls over the years, they all tried to get me to attend church or convert me to some extent. One I quit dating but stayed friends with. We often had religious debates but neither of us ever convinced the other. She has went to a couple different churches since I've known her and left them after realizing the leaders were mere mortals and didn't really know what they were talking about. Hate to tell her but that's really going to happen at every church.

[elmwood]

I'd love to live somewhere where religion wasn't nearly made so big a deal as here.

I don't know where you live, but it's not as if the entire US has the same religious fervor as the Bible Belt. Seriously, check out the Northeast, Great Lakes region, Rocky Mountain west outside of Utah, Minnesota, or the Pacific Northwest.

In the Northeast, there are times where I've felt out of place because I'm not Catholic, but nobody tries to preach to or convert me. Yeah, there's the lawn shrines, but it's not nearly as in-your-face as parts of the country that are more evangelical Protestant.