On the use of that C word and WHY it is an issue

[AHunter3]

The word being "cunt", obviously. Because it keeps cropping up (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=559133) as a divisive issue on the board...

I would like to ask IF it is being objected to for a reason that is quite other than "it's a bad wordydirty and offends people". I think if such were the case, perhaps even people who disagree with the stated reason might be less resentful of the ban on the use of the word as insult than if it is (or is perceived as) "that word is just too ugly for our delicate eyes & ears".

Can we confine this thread to a discussion of whether there is a philosophical objection to the word versus just a gut dislike / disapproval of it, and what the objection is? And discuss those issues in Great Debates style rather than whether or not Ed is a bluenose or the board motivated by this or that pragmatic concern or whether it's being enforced even-handedly and so forth?

Or has that been done / been tried already?

[ajb867]

I propose a modest solution!


Ladies and Gentleman I present to you *Pulls back curtain*


Kunt!

[Frank]

Kunt!
"Warden, it's pronounced "koont"."

[AClockworkMelon]

I really don't know why this word in particular was given any difference than the other words. Were there some overly-sensitive women? Were there some overly-sensitive men who thought they were standing up for women?

Really, profanity, as I'll continue to insist in every thread like this that I see, is a superstition. By deciding "well, you can use profanity, wait, what? You said cunt? No, no, THAT one is too dangerous!" you're only reinforcing a painful ritual that has little meaning.

[Cheshire Human]

Silly Bunt...

My understanding is that many, perhaps most, women find it highly offensive. More so than most other obscenities that refer to women. I hardly ever use it for that reason. Others may differ.

[AClockworkMelon]

Silly Bunt...

My understanding is that many, perhaps most, women find it highly offensive. More so than most other obscenities that refer to women. I hardly ever use it for that reason. Others may differ.Some gays find "fag" highly offensive, but that's used on the SDMB.

People will be offended by most anything.

[BigT]

I really don't know why this word in particular was given any difference than the other words. Were there some overly-sensitive women? Were there some overly-sensitive men who thought they were standing up for women?

Really, profanity, as I'll continue to insist in every thread like this that I see, is a superstition. By deciding "well, you can use profanity, wait, what? You said cunt? No, no, THAT one is too dangerous!" you're only reinforcing a painful ritual that has little meaning.

It's complicated, and will just derail the thread. Try searching this forum for the word that must not be spoken. Find anything that references the Pit, new rules, and Ed et al screwing up back in March of last year.

[elbows]

As a woman, I find it as hateful as 'nigger'.

No, I've never reported it. No, I am not too delicate to use profanity. However, it is highly offensive, especially to women and, as such, does not significantly contribute anything. There are many other colourful and 'acceptable' profane words that could as easily be used in it's place.

I don't feel much sympathy for those needing to defend it's use. It lowers the level of discourse and adds nothing to any discussion. If you can't express yourself without use of this highly offensive word then you have other issues, in my opinion.

Substitute the word nigger in each place where it's use is being defended and I think you'll see it's just not necessary. Since it is highly offensive and it isn't really necessary, I say let's go without it.

You asked, there you have it.

[BigT]

As a woman, I find it as hateful as 'nigger'.

No, I've never reported it. No, I am not too delicate to use profanity. However, it is highly offensive, especially to women and, as such, does not significantly contribute anything. There are many other colourful and 'acceptable' profane words that could as easily be used in it's place.

I don't feel much sympathy for those needing to defend it's use. It lowers the level of discourse and adds nothing to any discussion. If you can't express yourself without use of this highly offensive word then you have other issues, in my opinion.

Substitute the word nigger in each place where it's use is being defended and I think you'll see it's just not necessary. Since it is highly offensive and it isn't really necessary, I say let's go without it.

You asked, there you have it.

The thing is, nigger has a real history of being used by people who actually cause harm to black people. I have seen nothing similar for cunt.

Plus, really, the purpose of using that word is sometimes to offend. Using another word doesn't get the point across.

[NineToTheSky]

For some people, 'cunt' is the ultimate profanity. Or, at least, it should be. The problem lies in the fact for others it is used, more and more often, as just a form of disapproval or reasonably strong annoyance. And this is where the twain don't meet. For the former it is, by definition, beyond the pale; it is at the top of the tree of insults. For the latter, it doesn't have anything like the same power or effect, and will be used without the intent that the former see in it.

If I'm wrong, and those people also see it as an 'ultimate' curse, I wonder if they realise that by using it so frequently that they are diluting its power. Eventually, I suppose, something else will take the place of cunt. And the cycle will begin again.

[ajb867]

Funt here, cunt is small time....

[NineToTheSky]

The thing is, nigger has a real history of being used by people who actually cause harm to black people. I have seen nothing similar for cunt.

Plus, really, the purpose of using that word is sometimes to offend. Using another word doesn't get the point across.

But why - on a message board - would you want to offend? Disagree - yes; but offend? And, I disagree that there there isn't another way to put across those feelings. Cunt is basically shorthand, and a pretty blunt instrument.

[BigT]

For some people, 'cunt' is the ultimate profanity. Or, at least, it should be. The problem lies in the fact for others it is used, more and more often, as just a form of disapproval or reasonably strong annoyance. And this is where the twain don't meet. For the former it is, by definition, beyond the pale; it is at the top of the tree of insults. For the latter, it doesn't have anything like the same power or effect, and will be used without the intent that the former see in it.

If I'm wrong, and those people also see it as an 'ultimate' curse, I wonder if they realise that by using it so frequently that they are diluting its power. Eventually, I suppose, something else will take the place of cunt. And the cycle will begin again.

My post above was originally going to say that I hate that words have this much power, but I still try to avoid it.

And yes people know that, if they use it enough, it will lose its effectiveness. I think that's what they want. At least, it seemed that way with every other word. One thing I dislike about this board is that I absorbed stuff from here and now use profanity a lot more often. I used to pride myself on never using it.

[kayaker]

And yet, the individual letters: c, u, n, and t can be used elsewhere without objection. Only when they are lined up just so: cunt, do folks object.

[Sierra Indigo]

As a woman, I believe that cunt is NOT the ultimate profanity and is NOT equivalent to "Nigger" or any other racist hate speech, and I believe if you've got a problem with it, there's a greasemonkey script or add-on for firefox that you can use to filter the interwebs so you'll never have to see it again.

[elbows]

the purpose of using that word is sometimes to offend

...which makes it all the more like the word nigger. There are people who do not find the word nigger offensive, I'm sure. That doesn't defend it's use or make it acceptable.

I'm not easily offended I just happen to think that this particular word belongs on the same garbage heap as nigger.

Please demonstrate instances where this word alone will do, because I'd like to know, if that's the case.

[Lord Ashtar]

As a woman, I find it as hateful as 'nigger'.

No, I've never reported it. No, I am not too delicate to use profanity. However, it is highly offensive, especially to women and, as such, does not significantly contribute anything. There are many other colourful and 'acceptable' profane words that could as easily be used in it's place.

I don't feel much sympathy for those needing to defend it's use. It lowers the level of discourse and adds nothing to any discussion. If you can't express yourself without use of this highly offensive word then you have other issues, in my opinion.

Substitute the word nigger in each place where it's use is being defended and I think you'll see it's just not necessary. Since it is highly offensive and it isn't really necessary, I say let's go without it.

You asked, there you have it.

You're too sensitive.

[NineToTheSky]

As a woman, I believe that cunt is NOT the ultimate profanity and is NOT equivalent to "Nigger" or any other racist hate speech, and I believe if you've got a problem with it, there's a greasemonkey script or add-on for firefox that you can use to filter the interwebs so you'll never have to see it again.
Just out of interest, what, for you, is the ultimate insult?

[levdrakon]

I'd say gut dislike rather than philosophical objection. It's got a mean onomatopoetic feel to it like "slit" or "snatch" or something. I'd bet even someone for whom English isn't their language would immediately get that it's a pretty bad word.

Moderator hat should come off before complaining about it though.

I also agree when a word takes on a superstitious power for you, you should probably take a deep breath, relax and think about why you're letting a word take on magical properties.

[Sapo]

We have already done the "is cunt offensive" debate before. I don't think there is any need to repeat it once again.

The point is, if TPTB decide that the word is verboten, then let them ban it across the board with a clear rule that leaves no room for interpretation. "Thou shall not say cunt" is fine. Arbitrary rules are not intrinsically wrong, people. Most of our rules are already arbitrary.

The problem comes when the rules is that you can use it in some cases but not in some others. Or when individual mods decide when it is ok and when it is not. "No cunt outside the pit" is clear enough, just as "no cunt, period" (gee, where did I hear that before?).

The "you can say cunt but not as an insult" rule could work but not here. Fine lines are the natural habitat of dopers and there will always be someone using it in a way that defies the spirit if not the letter of the rule.

I say cunt or don't but no in betweens.

[Sapo]

As a woman,...

Holy shit, you are a woman? I already learned something today.

[NineToTheSky]

You're too sensitive.

A perfect example of what I was saying: the twain aren't meeting.

[Sapo]

And yet, the individual letters: c, u, n, and t can be used elsewhere without objection. Only when they are lined up just so: cunt, do folks object.

Curious indeed. I don't
understand why that would be.
Needless to say,
this is an interesting topic

[SoulFrost]

I can't get behind the "cunt" == "nigger" thing because I almost never hear two white guys calling each other niggers, but they call each other cunts all the time. "Nigger" has pretty much one specific meaning. "Cunt" is all over the place.

[Ludy]

As a woman, I believe that cunt is NOT the ultimate profanity and is NOT equivalent to "Nigger" or any other racist hate speech, and I believe if you've got a problem with it, there's a greasemonkey script or add-on for firefox that you can use to filter the interwebs so you'll never have to see it again.

Seconded.

I don't see calling someone a cunt any different than calling them a dick or a cock. They are two sides to the same coin. One is no more offensive than the other.

[Sapo]

I can't get behind the "cunt" == "nigger" thing because I almost never hear two white guys calling each other niggers, but they call each other cunts all the time. "Nigger" has pretty much one specific meaning. "Cunt" is all over the place.

Right. Some words just take a life of their own. Look at "fuck". It is seldom used to mean sexual intercourse. This is even more so on the internets. "Retard" and "gay" are used in ways I have never seen IRL (or maybe I am just hanging out with the wrong crowd, by which I mean the right crowd, of course).

[aruvqan]

Silly Bunt...

My understanding is that many, perhaps most, women find it highly offensive. More so than most other obscenities that refer to women. I hardly ever use it for that reason. Others may differ.

Being the possessor of my own personal cunt, I have no objection to the term, and have been known to use the term myself. It all depends on the usage of it. I will call someone a fucking cunt, if they are being a fucking cunt. It is invective. I have been called a cunt previously, and I have no doubt I may get called a cunt in the future. Words have the power to hurt that you ascribe to them. If it takes mild invective to get my point across, I will use it, but sometimes mild is not what is needed to work.

Use any words you like, though I think that that level of invective is appropriate to the pit and none of the other forums.

[coffeecat]

Please demonstrate instances where this word alone will do, because I'd like to know, if that's the case.If a woman deliberately gets pregnant to trap her boyfriend into marrying her, he doesn't go for it, and, since she now has no use for the baby, she throws it in the dumpster, I want something stronger than "inappropriate."

If "cunt" is as bad as "nigger," it's become that offensive awfully fast. In "The Seven Words You Can't Say on Television," George Carlin said that "piss" and "cunt" weren't in the same league as "fuck" and "shit" and shouldn't be on the list.

[Fiveroptic]

You know what? I used to get upset when people called me "dyke" when their ire had nothing to do with my sexual orientation. Then I remembered, "oh yeah, I'm a lesbian! It's just a put-down word that people of smaller minds use because they can't think of anything more eloquent with which to insult me or express their displeasure with my opinions." It stopped bothering me so much.

What really hurt when I was accused of being ignorant, uneducated, childish, and arrogant, because those are things I do not feel that I am (mostly.)

Cunt? Sure, I have one. Go ahead, use it pejoratively if you wish, because at least that much is true. I'd rather hear that than read that someone finds me ignorant and arrogant. That hurts more, because those are things I work hard to avoid.

Besides, if you call me a cunt, I reserve the right to call you a dickhead, and that's one of my favourite words.

[Sierra Indigo]

Just out of interest, what, for you, is the ultimate insult?

For me, there's no one "ultimate" insult. I find it more insulting if someone deliberately ascribes motives or words to me that I haven't espoused, or if I'm deliberately misrepresented. If someone calls me a "Cunt" or a "Whore" or a "Fat fucking bitch" I just don't care.

I actually like the sound of cunt. It's a very sharp word.

[AClockworkMelon]

One of my earliest memories from childhood was my mom being cut off dangerously on the highway and shouting "You fucking cunt!" I was maybe... four or five at the time? I don't know, I can't put it in order with my other memories.

I'm glad that she talked (and talks) that way, because it taught me from a young age that the only power that words have is what power we give them.

Should she have said, "You darned [insert some non-obscene derogatory word here]"?

Why? It would have conveyed the exact same message.

I think people who are offended by "cunt" are over-sensitive at best and arrogant at worst.

To all the females in this thread saying they aren't offended by "cunt," (Sierra, Fiveroptic, aruvqan and any others) I salute you.

Now back to the kitchens, the lot of you.

[NineToTheSky]

>snip<
I think people who are offended by "cunt" are over-sensitive at best and arrogant at worst.

This is the bit I don't get. Isn't it meant to be offensive? If not: what is its function?

[AClockworkMelon]

This is the bit I don't get. Isn't it meant to be offensive? If not: what is its function?OK. You think "cunt" is offensive. Why isn't "bitch" as offensive? I use them interchangeably, they have the same meaning when I use them. Why isn't "dick" as offensive? It's more or less a synonym that I use to describe men who I'd describe as cunts were they women.

Any word that you can interchange with another is a synonym. They have the same meaning. So obviously it's not merely the meaning that makes a word offensive. The idea that certain words are off-limits, or that certain words are more off-limits than others, for reasons we can't quite articulate, is superstition.

[NineToTheSky]

OK. You think "cunt" is offensive. Why isn't "bitch" as offensive? I use them interchangeably, they have the same meaning when I use them. Why isn't "dick" as offensive? It's more or less a synonym that I use to describe men who I'd describe as cunts were they women.

Any word that you can interchange with another is a synonym. They have the same meaning. So obviously it's not merely the meaning that makes a word offensive. The idea that certain words are off-limits, or that certain words are more off-limits than others, for reasons we can't quite articulate, is superstition.

You've misread me. I didn't say whether or not I think it is offensive. You said that people who find it offensive are over-sensitive. Is it not meant to be offensive? I was asking that if it isn't meant to be offensive, what is meant by it?

[malkavia]

This rule has always bothered me as well. When I think "cunt", I think vulva. To be told that this is The Most Horrible Word on the Intrawebs!11™ is pretty insulting to me as a woman. Why us? Why not dicks? Why can't dicks or testicles be the most insulting thing ever?

To be honest, I'd far prefer to be called a cunt than a bitch. When you really pare down the words meanings, cunt is one of the nicer insults that can be lobbed at a woman.

Using the same insult on a man is a bit bothersome to me because I've noticed that ascribing anything feminine to a man (i.e. bitch, cunt, "I can see your vagina from here") is apparently an insult. On the flip side, if I tell a female friend "Wow, you have balls the size of Texas" it is likely because she's done something wildly courageous. Weird, that.

[Todderbob]

There are many other colourful and 'acceptable' profane words that could as easily be used in it's place.Congrats, you've missed the point of swearing entirely.

[Oakminster]

Question: How is "cunt" more offensive than "douchebag", when used as an insult?

[AHunter3]

For my own part... I can relate to boycotting the use of a snippet of profanity as a consequence of thinking it to be politically loaded; I don't use "fuck" as a verb because the word is on the one hand treated as a synonym for "have sex with" and yet on the other hand is used to express the violent destruction of someone or something, as in "I'm gonna fuck you up". Combined, they have the political effect of reinforcing the notion that sex IS rape, that sex IS violent, that the desire for sex IS a desire to do harm to someone, that it is an act of hostility, etc.

(I do toss it around in the other sense, "oh fuck this", "that fucking piece of shit", etc)

To my way of thinking, there has to be more than "this is a bad word because it is such a BAD word" / "it's the worse thing you can call someone" / etc.

I do see some sense to the assertion that when the word is used as a presumed derogatory insult towards males, it is politically loaded because it implies that being female or being thought female would be a grave insult to a male, and this is borne out somewhat by the parallel use of "pussy" or "bitch" to insult a guy.

I almost never hear two white guys calling each other niggers

Oh, I did, growing up in Valdosta / Lowndes County GA. A preadolescent white boy enraged at another and ready to start a fight might indeed say "you nigger!" (and got into a heap of trouble with the teacher & principal for doing so). By the 1970s, there was a whole lot less use of the word altogether, enough of a sea-change in attitudes having occurred that those who'd be inclined to use it were a lot more cautious about doing so except in specialized company. Other white kids would stop having anything to do with you if you called some other person a nigger. But back in the late 60s when more kids were still doing it, it might even have been more likely to be hurled casually at a white person, because they were more likely to be talking to another white person and because, from that way of thinking, it's not an insult to a black person, it's just reminding them of what they are, if that makes any sense.

Anyway, if the objection to "cunt" is along the lines of "it's sexist", it seems like the rule ought to be that you can't call anyone a cunt if they don't have one. And the rule should similarly extent to fag or faggy or "so gay", etc — that you can't use terms like that to put down something that patently ISN'T as an intended insult, thus reinforcing the notion that those things that ARE are inferior and contempt-worthy. And so forth. Thus, a philosophical stance from which a general rule is derived, and from the general rule, a specific application to "cunt".

I'm not trying to put words into the mouths of the folks who run this board; I don't know their thought processes. So I don't know if they do in fact have a perspective that underlies the sentiment about the use of "cunt" as an insult on this board. But it does seem to me that if they do, that in this environment it would be received better if they laid it out.

[NineToTheSky]

We really need a poll listing all these swear words so that they can be voted on for their relative offensiveness.

[AClockworkMelon]

You've misread me. I didn't say whether or not I think it is offensive. You said that people who find it offensive are over-sensitive. Is it not meant to be offensive? I was asking that if it isn't meant to be offensive, what is meant by it?Even if I misread you, my point still stands.

Why isn't "bitch" as offensive? I use them interchangeably, they have the same meaning when I use them. Why isn't "dick" as offensive? It's more or less a synonym that I use to describe men who I'd describe as cunts were they women.

Any word that you can interchange with another is a synonym. They have the same meaning. So obviously it's not merely the meaning that makes a word offensive. The idea that certain words are off-limits, or that certain words are more off-limits than others, for reasons we can't quite articulate, is superstition.

1.) It's not always said with the intent to offend.
2.) Even when it is said with the intent to offend, if you take issue with the use of the word "cunt" and not its meaning, you're arrogant. As in, if I say "You're a bitch," and you'd shake it off, but when I say "You're a cunt," you explode? That is arrogance. Why isn't "You're a nasty shrew" offensive? That's what cunt basically means. Its meaning isn't what's offensive. It's the word itself that is. And THAT is superstition. That's the point I'm trying to make.

For my own part... I can relate to boycotting the use of a snippet of profanity as a consequence of thinking it to be politically loaded; I don't use "fuck" as a verb because the word is on the one hand treated as a synonym for "have sex with" and yet on the other hand is used to express the violent destruction of someone or something, as in "I'm gonna fuck you up". Combined, they have the political effect of reinforcing the notion that sex IS rape, that sex IS violent, that the desire for sex IS a desire to do harm to someone, that it is an act of hostility, etc.This is nonsense.

Anyway, if the objection to "cunt" is along the lines of "it's sexist", it seems like the rule ought to be that you can't call anyone a cunt if they don't have one. Women you hate are called cunts. Men you hate are called dicks. People of both genders you hate are called assholes. I'm seeing a pattern here. You're over-analyzing it.

[Guinastasia]

Seconded.

I don't see calling someone a cunt any different than calling them a dick or a cock. They are two sides to the same coin. One is no more offensive than the other.

If anything, I think it SHOULD be brought down to the level of calling someone a dick. If calling someone a cunt is so offensive -- does that mean that somehow, having a "cunt" is a really horrid thing?

To my way, thinking of "cunt" as worse than "dick" is far more insulting to women than the word itself.

Does that make sense?

[AClockworkMelon]

If anything, I think it SHOULD be brought down to the level of calling someone a dick. If calling someone a cunt is so offensive -- does that mean that somehow, having a "cunt" is a really horrid thing?

To my way, thinking of "cunt" as worse than "dick" is far more insulting to women than the word itself.

Does that make sense?Yes.

[Sampiro]

To be honest, I'd far prefer to be called a cunt than a bitch.

Would that the women in my family were as easy to please.

[AHunter3]

Quote:

For my own part... I can relate to boycotting the use of a snippet of profanity as a consequence of thinking it to be politically loaded; I don't use "fuck" as a verb because the word is on the one hand treated as a synonym for "have sex with" and yet on the other hand is used to express the violent destruction of someone or something, as in "I'm gonna fuck you up". Combined, they have the political effect of reinforcing the notion that sex IS rape, that sex IS violent, that the desire for sex IS a desire to do harm to someone, that it is an act of hostility, etc.
This is nonsense.

Frankly, this is the flip side of "it's a bad word because it's such a BAD word". You are totally entitled to disagree, but "this is nonsense" is not a very compelling argument and would not seem to add anything to anyone's understanding. EDITED TO ADD: I'm not saying this is why (or parallel to why) "cunt" is not allowed as an insult here, I'm tossing it out as a possible train of thought that might be similar. In case it's not obvious, I don't agree with the word-ban but I would like to hear the reasoning behind its existence and I'm willing to listen to whatever that reason IS. "This is nonsense" probably won't be my reply if a supporter thereof does indeed do so.

. If calling someone a cunt is so offensive -- does that mean that somehow, having a "cunt" is a really horrid thing?

To my way, thinking of "cunt" as worse than "dick" is far more insulting to women than the word itself.

Does that make sense?

It sure the hell does. If no better reason is given, it ends up looking like "We don't let members call people CUNT on this board because, well, you know, cunts are such awful things, it is OH so insulting to imply that anyone would be akin to one of them, I mean, like EWW!" Meanwhile, "dick" or "prick" is fine. Hmm.

But again, I'm not attributing any perspective to anyone who hasn't outlined their own.

[Alice The Goon]

I'm sure most of you realize that the reason for the outrage over this isn't necessarily the use of the word, it's the way the moderators handled it. Again, they circle the wagons and their attitude seems to be fuck all of us and any sense of fairness or propriety. It's their message board, and if we don't like it, we can leave. Not the best attitude to have when you're offering a paid service with members.


That said, I find the word bitch to be much more offensive than cunt. You hardly ever even hear cunt, but bitch has been used forever to degrade women, and I hate that word and wish people wouldn't use it. Now, if I can just become a moderator, so I can force my own opinions on others. :rolleyes:

[AClockworkMelon]

Frankly, this is the flip side of "it's a bad word because it's such a BAD word". You are totally entitled to disagree, but "this is nonsense" is not a very compelling argument and would not seem to add anything to anyone's understanding. EDITED TO ADD: I'm not saying this is why (or parallel to why) "cunt" is not allowed as an insult here, I'm tossing it out as a possible train of thought that might be similar. In case it's not obvious, I don't agree with the word-ban but I would like to hear the reasoning behind its existence and I'm willing to listen to whatever that reason IS. "This is nonsense" probably won't be my reply if a supporter thereof does indeed do so.I find it silly to think that when a friend tells me "Oh, fuck you!" he's implying a deep connection between violence and sex. Honestly.

[Drain Bead]

Use any words you like, though I think that that level of invective is appropriate to the pit and none of the other forums.

I pretty much agree with this. If you're desperate to call Jamie Oliver or Jon Gosselin a cunt, start a Pit thread. I go to the Pit when I want to read people calling other people cunts. I read Cafe Society to talk about TV shows and music and food and such. There's an appropriate time and place to use that language online and in your everyday life. Just like you shouldn't say "cunt" in church but it's fine in a bar, it's fine in the Pit but off-putting in Cafe Society or MPSIMS.

I also think the word cunt is a lot less loaded in the UK than it is in the US. You will almost never hear two guys refer to one another as cunts in the US.

[not_alice]

I can't get behind the "cunt" == "nigger" thing because I almost never hear two white guys calling each other niggers, but they call each other cunts all the time. "Nigger" has pretty much one specific meaning. "Cunt" is all over the place.

You might want to check out the lyrics (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Oliver%27s-Army-lyrics-Elvis-Costello/10B0BB2F9597FDE9482568AF00206026) of the Elvis Costello song "Oliver's Army" for one example.

[AHunter3]

I'm sure most of you realize that the reason for the outrage over this isn't necessarily the use of the word, it's the way the moderators handled it.

Not that I get to "own the thread" (or junior-mod it) just because I started it, but I would prefer it if we can kind of bracket that (and other meta-issues of that ilk) off from this particular discussion. There have been threads aplenty about how it's been handled, how it's been applied, the real reasons for, and etc.

[AHunter3]

I find it silly to think that when a friend tells me "Oh, fuck you!" he's implying a deep connection between violence and sex. Honestly.

The average 13 yearold Beavis-wannabe who derisively pronounces something as "so gay" might deny that he's implying a deep connection between bad taste (or lack of genuine worth or whatever) and sexual orientation. But his use of that language is doing so, nevertheless.

By itself "Oh, fuck you" may not imply much (I think that's the default meaning nowadays) but if you also use "fuck" in a sentence such as "Well, did you fuck her yet?", then I'd say yes, you have.

[AClockworkMelon]

By itself "Oh, fuck you" may not imply much (I think that's the default meaning nowadays) but if you also use "fuck" in a sentence such as "Well, did you fuck her yet?", then I'd say yes, you have.No. I haven't.

1.) Even if language were as concrete as you say it is, fuck is a word that has many meanings. It can be used as a noun, verb, adjective, etc. It's an amazing little word.
2.) But of course, language isn't as concrete as you say it is. Please don't put intent behind what I say. When I tell someone to go fuck themselves, I don't need you telling me that I'm implying anything about sex or rape.

[Zoe]

Can you imagine someone becoming upset over the letter "J"? Why would they do that? It's just a symbol? A word is just a symbol too. Getting bothered over a word (that can be symbolic of several different things) makes no more sense than getting upset over any particular letter.

And yes, there have been times when single letters have come to have meanings of their own. Anyone seen the incredible film Z? But these are meanings that people have given them.

BTW, there was a time when I made a deal with another Doper that I wouldn't use a certain word that offended him if he wouldn't use the word "cunt." I have quite gotten over that.

For those of you who still find "cunt" offensive, do you find it more offensive than moderator censorship of words that are not offensive to you -- "Tea Party" or "Progressives" or "White Trash" or "Red Neck" or "Confederate" or "Yankee" or "Negro" or "Pick-a-Ninny" or "Negroid" or "Niggerdly" "Squaw"?

[AClockworkMelon]

Can you imagine someone becoming upset over the letter "J"? Why would they do that? It's just a symbol? A word is just a symbol too. Getting bothered over a word (that can be symbolic of several different things) makes no more sense than getting upset over any particular letter.

And yes, there have been times when single letters have come to have meanings of their own. Anyone seen the incredible film Z? But these are meanings that people have given them.

BTW, there was a time when I made a deal with another Doper that I wouldn't use a certain word that offended him if he wouldn't use the word "cunt." I have quite gotten over that.

For those of you who still find "cunt" offensive, do you find it more offensive than moderator censorship of words that are not offensive to you -- "Tea Party" or "Progressives" or "White Trash" or "Red Neck" or "Confederate" or "Yankee" or "Negro" or "Pick-a-Ninny" or "Negroid" or "Niggerdly" "Squaw"?More liberal hippie BS! :rolleyes:

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Plus, really, the purpose of using that word is sometimes to offend. Using another word doesn't get the point across.So, just to make sure I understand you (speaking as an individual, not in my moderator capacity), the argument is that people should be able to say "cunt" on the SDMB because it's an effective way to offend people?

Yet, at the same time, it's being argued that the word isn't really offensive?

Our #1 overriding rule is "don't be a jerk." If you're using a word with the intent to offend someone, that's being a jerk, right? And if it's not being used with the intent to offend someone, then why not use a different word?

*sigh*

I was attracted to the SDMB in the first place because it seemed to be a whole bunch of smart, mature people. For the most part, it still is. But this whole "I want to say cunt, dammit, just because I can" argument reminds me of 6th grade.

[AClockworkMelon]

So, just to make sure I understand you (speaking as an individual, not in my moderator capacity), the argument is that people should be able to say "cunt" on the SDMB because it's an effective way to offend people?

Yet, at the same time, it's being argued that the word isn't really offensive?

Our #1 overriding rule is "don't be a jerk." If you're using a word with the intent to offend someone, that's being a jerk, right?Absolutely. Hostility should be checked at the door. This isn't a public forum, it's privately-owned. If the powers that be want things civil, things should be kept civil.

And if it's not being used with the intent to offend someone, then why not use a different word?
Because as we've already argued (I thought our arguments were good :(), the word itself isn't offensive. If the word can be replaced with another, they have the same meaning. So it's the word that people are taking offense to, not the meaning. But really? Being offended by an assembly of letters and not by what it means? That's silly.

I was attracted to the SDMB in the first place because it seemed to be a whole bunch of smart, mature people. For the most part, it still is. But this whole "I want to say cunt, dammit, just because I can" argument reminds me of 6th grade.I haven't used "cunt" anywhere on the board outside of this thread, I don't believe. But I think an understanding of the myth of profanity is a mark of maturity, not a sign of immaturity.

[AHunter3]

Hello Gary. Nice to see a staff-type person checking in here.

Just as I would prefer that people not make this thread into another thread about how the board owner / admins / moderators have handled the issue or how fairly or unfairly the enforcement has been, I'd also like to politely ask that it not be a place for berating members on how THEY have handled the issue. (We've had thread aplenty in which THAT has been touched upon, also, I daresay).

I'd really like your thoughts and feedback on the underlying reasons why the word is an issue, assuming that it is indeed an issue for you.

[Guinastasia]

The average 13 yearold Beavis-wannabe who derisively pronounces something as "so gay" might deny that he's implying a deep connection between bad taste (or lack of genuine worth or whatever) and sexual orientation. But his use of that language is doing so, nevertheless.

By itself "Oh, fuck you" may not imply much (I think that's the default meaning nowadays) but if you also use "fuck" in a sentence such as "Well, did you fuck her yet?", then I'd say yes, you have.

"Fuck you" is also forbidden, remember?



(IIRC, Zoe, the word is "niggardly" and has no relation to "nigger".)

[Malacandra]

"Fuck you" is also forbidden, remember?



(IIRC, Zoe, the word is "niggardly" and has no relation to "nigger".)

You remember correctly - the word is of Norse origin and means "mean, penny-pinching". But of course Zoe knew this already - mere mortals such as you and I cannot hope to teach her anything about the use of English.

Using the same insult on a man is a bit bothersome to me because I've noticed that ascribing anything feminine to a man (i.e. bitch, cunt, "I can see your vagina from here") is apparently an insult. On the flip side, if I tell a female friend "Wow, you have balls the size of Texas" it is likely because she's done something wildly courageous. Weird, that.

Well, telling her she had a cunt the size of Texas wouldn't be high praise, would it? :dubious:

[HongKongFooey]

I can't get behind the "cunt" == "nigger" thing because I almost never hear two white guys calling each other niggers, but they call each other cunts all the time. "Nigger" has pretty much one specific meaning. "Cunt" is all over the place.Cunt, please.

[Sapo]

...Well, telling her she had a cunt the size of Texas...

exas exas exas

[SmartAleq]

Your solution has already been mentioned. vBulletin, like ALL FUCKING MESSAGE BOARD SOFTWARE WRITTEN IN THIS CENTURY has an available nanny filter. So that the whole, entire list of naughtybadevil words will be censored. SO INSTALL THE FUCKING NANNY FILTER ALREADY, SO THOSE WHO HAVE SANDY CUNTS CAN HAVE THEIR FUCKING HAPPY FUNTIME G-RATED FUCKING BOARD ALREADY. Then, if you wanna be REALLY WHIZBANG about it, you can turn on the option in the individual UserCPs to either have the nanny filter on or off, depending on the relative size grit of the sand in each individual poster's cunt.

Jesus Fucking Christ on a whole wheat cracker, just implement the fucking filter already. Or, y'know, just keep faffing about with this whole cunting nonsense indefinitely, FFS.

[AClockworkMelon]

Your solution has already been mentioned. vBulletin, like ALL FUCKING MESSAGE BOARD SOFTWARE WRITTEN IN THIS CENTURY has an available nanny filter. So that the whole, entire list of naughtybadevil words will be censored. SO INSTALL THE FUCKING NANNY FILTER ALREADY, SO THOSE WHO HAVE SANDY CUNTS CAN HAVE THEIR FUCKING HAPPY FUNTIME G-RATED FUCKING BOARD ALREADY. Then, if you wanna be REALLY WHIZBANG about it, you can turn on the option in the individual UserCPs to either have the nanny filter on or off, depending on the relative size grit of the sand in each individual poster's cunt.

Jesus Fucking Christ on a whole wheat cracker, just implement the fucking filter already. Or, y'know, just keep faffing about with this whole cunting nonsense indefinitely, FFS.

:D

[Cheshire Human]

.... might indeed say "you nigger!".... it's not an insult to a black person, it's just reminding them of what they are, if that makes any sense.


Many cultural "rules" make no sense to someone from another culture, who doesn't understand the first culture. That's a big problem/danger of "multiculturism". It encourages people to "avoid giving offense" to people of a different culture, rather than understand that culture. I've had black friends (and their relatives and friends whom I've met and talked with) who HATE (figuratively) white people who walk on eggshells around them, in an attempt to "avoid giving offense" because of "political correctness" & "multiculturalism". Those "white people" mostly come off as clueless, rather than "inclusive" or "tolerant". I get pissed [for you Brits, in the US that doesn't mean (even remotely) what it means to you] at all the politicians who say we need "an honest conversation on race in this country", who then proceed to avoid the issue. I've had those "conversations" with people of other races and cultures, for real, and the one conclusion we keep coming up with is that PC & MC are destructive, rather than helpful, for "them" or "us whites".

What's the relevance to this thread? We (meaning males) have a hard time bridging the linguistic gap between "our own" "racial" females. What chance do we have bridging the gap between "races", or even "southern redneck culture", if we can't even bridge the gap between "sexes" within our own culture? "Cunt", "Bitch", "Dick", "Prick", it's all the same as "Nigger" or "Cracker" between male/female vs. white/black. We ALL need to stop seeing people of other cultures as someone to "not offend", and rather see them as from a culture we want to understand and could, if only we would honestly try, learn something from.

End rant.

[SoulFrost]

Cunt, please.

Would you like to Super Size?

[Cheshire Human]

You might want to check out the lyrics (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Oliver%27s-Army-lyrics-Elvis-Costello/10B0BB2F9597FDE9482568AF00206026) of the Elvis Costello song "Oliver's Army" for one example.

Elvis Costello!!!one!!!eleven!!! not_alice, I'm your fan!!!

[Cheshire Human]

Can you imagine someone becoming upset over the letter "J"?

In fact, I can point out to you a specific group of people who DO get upset 'over the letter "J"', as long as you put the "J" in quotes, like that. You would be amazed at what people can be offended by.

[HongKongFooey]

Would you like to Super Size?
Nigga, please!

[SoulFrost]

Nigga, please!

I like that. "Please" and "thank you" just aren't said enough these days.

You're welcome, cu... nah, I better not go there.

[Sapo]

In fact, I can point out to you a specific group of people who DO get upset 'over the letter "J"', as long as you put the "J" in quotes, like that. You would be amazed at what people can be offended by.
I am offended by capricious of bold and italics. Not to mention underlining, triple quotes and the use of the phrase "not to mention".

ETA: Oh, shit.

[Cheshire Human]

I am offended by capricious of bold and italics. Not to mention underlining, triple quotes and the use of the phrase "not to mention".

ETA: Oh, shit.

Awright, beotch, point out where I used the phrase "not to mention"!!!one!!eleben!!!! I """DARE""" ya.... :D:D:D:D

[crowmanyclouds]

Your solution has already been mentioned. vBulletin, like ALL FUCKING MESSAGE BOARD SOFTWARE WRITTEN IN THIS CENTURY has an available nanny filter. So that the whole, entire list of naughtybadevil words will be censored. SO INSTALL THE FUCKING NANNY FILTER ALREADY, SO THOSE WHO HAVE SANDY CUNTS CAN HAVE THEIR FUCKING HAPPY FUNTIME G-RATED FUCKING BOARD ALREADY. Then, if you wanna be REALLY WHIZBANG about it, you can turn on the option in the individual UserCPs to either have the nanny filter on or off, depending on the relative size grit of the sand in each individual poster's cunt.

Jesus Fucking Christ on a whole wheat cracker, just implement the fucking filter already. Or, y'know, just keep faffing about with this whole cunting nonsense indefinitely, FFS.AMEN!

And when the filter starts to edit words like ***ume, ****tail, etc and doesn't know that the **** in "cock and bull" isn't a penis reference, well, should we start a new thread to see which Mod gets stuck with the privilege of editing the "bad word list*"?

CMC fnord!
*Is the vBulletin software multilingual? 'Course, I'm sure as merde no one will start throwing the bad words through Babel Fish just for the 性交ing fun of it! :rolleyes:

[srzss05]

I'm sure as merde no one will start throwing the bad words through Babel Fish just for the 性交ing fun of it! :rolleyes:

Actually, "seiko" tranlates as "sexual intercourse" though Babelfish, and "fuck" through Google.

[Trepa Mayfield]

AMEN!

And when the filter starts to edit words like ***ume...

Er...vol? res?

[Zoe]

Guin, I foolishly promised one of our Dopers not to use the word "niggardly" in my posts. This Doper knew that it was not based on the more familiar term, but felt that people used it just because they wanted to be offensive anyway.

Malacandra: But of course Zoe knew this already - mere mortals such as you and I cannot hope to teach her anything about the use of English.

I think this is the first time at the Straight Dope that I have seen ignorance encouraged and knowledge ridiculed. Guin's comment was appropriate. Malacandra's unprovoked and irrelevant comment is not in keeping with the spirit of the message boards.

AClockworkMelon: I haven't used "cunt" anywhere on the board outside of this thread, I don't believe. But I think an understanding of the myth of profanity is a mark of maturity, not a sign of immaturity.

Yes. That's what all that "hippie BS" was about.

[AClockworkMelon]

Yes. That's what all that "hippie BS" was about.I'm aware. I was being sarcastic.

[Scumpup]

One cunt, Two cunt, Red cunt, Blue cunt,
Black cunt, Blue cunt, Old cunt, New cunt.
This one has a littlecar.
This one has a little star.
Say! What a lot of cunts there are.

[Zoe]

AClockworkMelon: I'm aware. I was being sarcastic.

Oops. Sensitive old hippie here. I thought we were in agreement and that one left me scratching my head.

[ivn1188]

I'm struck by the number of people who think being offensive is not a valid goal of communication.

It certainly is a valid goal. People do or say things that we feel deserve a strong response, and sometimes we feel as if they should be punished or have their attention drawn to the strength of our reaction. Using offensive language is one way to do so. It is a fact that offensive words are stronger by definition, even though those words are fairly arbitrary -- the offensiveness of words is nothing more than a social construct, and calling someone a less offensive word will not have the effect the speaker wishes.

While a juvenile philosophy of communication might emphasize being polite and non-contentious, the role that offensive words play must be filled in any mature communicative scheme. Other curse words will spring up due to social use; words that aren't offensive unless we make them so, like "troll" or "sock" or "retarded" or "gay".

As amusing as it would be to read a message board filled with things like f**k or posters expressing outrage by calling each other "grontarg", there's really no reason to go there.

Having rules against posters being purposefully offensive to other posters is fine (except in the pit). Having rules against using offensive language simply because the very existence of a word is enough to offend is not fine.

Note that the first is more about propriety to other posters, whereas the second is about trying to change the very essence of our communication with others. It won't work, and it's silly. Being offensive is a tool, an important tool, in communication. Trying to deny that is just banging your head against the wall -- it doesn't really do anything and after a while it will make you stupid.

[ZenBeam]

Er...vol? res?Ass.




ETA: Oh, and that was the word, too.

[BigT]

So, just to make sure I understand you (speaking as an individual, not in my moderator capacity), the argument is that people should be able to say "cunt" on the SDMB because it's an effective way to offend people?

Yet, at the same time, it's being argued that the word isn't really offensive?

Our #1 overriding rule is "don't be a jerk." If you're using a word with the intent to offend someone, that's being a jerk, right? And if it's not being used with the intent to offend someone, then why not use a different word?

*sigh*

I was attracted to the SDMB in the first place because it seemed to be a whole bunch of smart, mature people. For the most part, it still is. But this whole "I want to say cunt, dammit, just because I can" argument reminds me of 6th grade.

You misunderstand. My choice of wording was probably inappropriate. What I mean is that the word is designed to be insulting TO THE PERSON IT IS DIRECTED AT. In the Pit, being a jerk and doing that is SOP, which is why I hate the restriction in the Pit.

On the rest of the board, we're allowed to be insulting towards non-Dopers. I don't understand why we can be insulting up to, but not including, this one word. Yeah. it's more insulting (for whatever reason). But why is that an excuse for its lack of use?

Most of the people that object to it seem to be taking it as if it were directed toward them. It is they who are offended. Since it's not a personal insult, I don't understand why their inability to not be offended is relevant.

If we're going to start that, then we're going to have to pull a lot of words out. For example, a fundamentalist could pop in and get y'all to make fundie off limits. A Christian: how about sky wizard or pink unicorn? They're pretty offensive to me, since their being derogatory towards my God. How about a proctologist objecting to asshole being a bad thing? Or sex therapist with the word Fuck? Or how abut a certain author who writes books about excrement outlawing shithead and similar insults?

Finally, the maturity comment goes both ways. While the metaphorical sixth grader may use profanity because he can get away with it, he's also going to be the one immature enough to go tattle when he has something against someone else who says it. And the reason why the anti-profanity rule exists is because people don't trust the kids to know how to use it in a mature manner. Said rules make people feel like little kids, so don't be surprised when people respond by acting the way they've been treated.

[Cheshire Human]

Being offensive is a tool, an important tool....

Uhhh, huh huh. He said "tool"...:D

Beavis & Butthead...

[magellan01]

As many have pointed out, trying to draw equivalence between cunt and nigger is ridiculous.

[Sapo]

If one needed to be offensive to a black woman, what's the recommended course of action? Which one should one chose?

If one wanted to use both, what's the right order?

[raindog]

....snip.......
Finally, the maturity comment goes both ways. While the metaphorical sixth grader may use profanity because he can get away with it, he's also going to be the one immature enough to go tattle when he has something against someone else who says it. And the reason why the anti-profanity rule exists is because people don't trust the kids to know how to use it in a mature manner. Said rules make people feel like little kids, so don't be surprised when people respond by acting the way they've been treated.
They were acting like kids; got treated like kids, and responded by acting like kids.

[adhay]

Silly Bunt...

My understanding is that many, perhaps most, women find it highly offensive. More so than most other obscenities that refer to women. I hardly ever use it for that reason. Others may differ.My SO is one of these. I've come to the conclusion the reason it's so offensive is that it can be so apt. Bitch just lacks the gravitas we associate with cunt.

One of my favorite lines was In the movie Stuck on You. Cher was contrite and apologizing for some previous "unreasonableness". "I was a bitch with a capital 'C'". My SO never thought it was funny.

[AClockworkMelon]

My SO is one of these. I've come to the conclusion the reason it's so offensive is that it can be so apt. Bitch just lacks the gravitas we associate with cunt.

One of my favorite lines was In the movie Stuck on You. Cher was contrite and apologizing for some previous "unreasonableness". "I was a bitch with a capital 'C'". My SO never thought it was funny."Cunt" is indeed a good word. It has weight and feeling to it.

I think "bitch" has similar weight, but its overuse has made it seem tame. Maybe some women want to disarm their detractors? :p

[Cheshire Human]

If one needed to be offensive to a black woman, what's the recommended course of action? Which one should one chose?

If one wanted to use both, what's the right order?

How about neither? "Dumbass" would seem to fill the bill without offending anyone else.... I can think of many others. Shall we make a list of acceptable offensive insults? I'm fairly good at "tailor-made" insults in both "interwebz" flames and IRL. I will be happy to do the "Cyrano" bit, only insults, instead of "love poetry", if someone will pay me for my "expertise" (heh, heh... Cyrano never got any, so why not throw a few "bombs"). The rules on vulgarity, here, are considerably weaker than the ones on boards I decided to leave, but the rules on "flames" are a bit stronger. The flames on the ones I left degenerated into nothing but spewing of "the allowed" vulgarities. No-one ever won one of those. Someone (frequently me) could always "out-obscene" you.

I, for one, welcome our new <SDMB mod> overlords. [maybe:D]

CH

[Cheshire Human]

How about neither? "Dumbass" would seem to fill the bill without offending anyone else.... I can think of many others. Shall we make a list of acceptable offensive insults? I'm fairly good at "tailor-made" insults in both "interwebz" flames and IRL. I will be happy to do the "Cyrano" bit, only insults, instead of "love poetry", if someone will pay me for my "expertise" (heh, heh... Cyrano never got any, so why not throw a few "bombs"). The rules on vulgarity, here, are considerably weaker than the ones on boards I decided to leave, but the rules on "flames" are a bit stronger. The flames on the ones I left degenerated into nothing but spewing of "the allowed" vulgarities. No-one ever won one of those. Someone (frequently me) could always "out-obscene" you.

I, for one, welcome our new <SDMB mod> overlords. [maybe:D]

CH


BTW, I just realised, "CH" could be taken as "Cunt Hair". "When correctly viewed, Everything is lewd".... "I can tell you about the 'Wizard of Oz, or Peter Pan [There's a dirty old man]"...

[Sapo]

How about neither?

How is neither offensive? I don't get it. Yo mama is a neither. Nah. Doesn't work for me.

[BigT]

They were acting like kids; got treated like kids, and responded by acting like kids.


Almost. They may have been acting like kids, got treated like kids, and now respond by acting like kids. If they were treated like adults, they may have wound up responding as adults.

And even that's not quite it, because getting all offended by the specific words someone uses, and trying to force them not to say those words is itself a childish thing to do. It's the same thing as the sixth grade tattler. (Or actually, a bit younger.)

Well. almost, because a sixth grade tattler would be told "Sorry, but that's not against the rules. You need to work this out amongst yourselves."

[Cheshire Human]

How is neither offensive? I don't get it. Yo mama is a neither. Nah. Doesn't work for me.

Dumbass

Oh, and that was my suggested alternative.

[NineToTheSky]

There is an issue here that I am just not getting. I have always believed that the use of the word cunt is designed to be offensive. In the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunt)entry for the word, there several references to that:
Scholar Germaine Greer has said that "it is one of the few remaining words in the English language with a genuine power to shock." and The word "cunt" is generally regarded in English-speaking countries as unsuitable in normal public discourse. It has been described as "the most heavily tabooed word of all English words."

I obviously recognise that a person's upbringing, and the mores of the section of society that he frequents will condition his view of how offensive the word is and should be. But it would be disenguous to not recognise that for many people it is a deeply distasteful word. Therefore, in a mixed society, such as the SD, those who choose to use the word must surely accept that it will offend some people. The society should then decide whether the need for freedom of speech should override the sensibilities of the offendees.

There are people who have claimed in this thread that the word is not offensive. Fair enough, that's you're opinion, and I accept it. But I asked one poster - twice - if it is not being used offensively, what is its purpose? Both times he didn't answer that. Can anyone educate me?

[Irishman]

My personal observation on the use of cuss words as insults...

Men get called everything: dick, cocksucker, penishead, asshole, bastard, etc.

Women used to typically get one universal word*: bitch. Doesn't matter what a woman did, she was a bitch.

Somewhere along the line, bitch morphed meanings. Instead of meaning a "difficult woman with extreme attitude", it came to mean "subjugated person" - "He's my bitch."

When that happened, people needed a new insult for women, so cunt became the replacement word.

Pussy, while referring to the same article of genitalia, was directed at men who act weak, wimpy, cowering. Thus it wasn't appropriate for replacing bitch.

My experience is that cunt is directed at women, not at men. Apparently YMMV.

Drain Bead said:
I also think the word cunt is a lot less loaded in the UK than it is in the US. You will almost never hear two guys refer to one another as cunts in the US.

Bing bing bing, winner. The word isn't applied to men, like pussy, it's applied to women.


malkavia said:
Using the same insult on a man is a bit bothersome to me because I've noticed that ascribing anything feminine to a man (i.e. bitch, cunt, "I can see your vagina from here") is apparently an insult. On the flip side, if I tell a female friend "Wow, you have balls the size of Texas" it is likely because she's done something wildly courageous. Weird, that.

That's some other inherent cultural sexism. Male traits are "strong", "bold", "daring"; female traits are "meek", "submissive", "helpless".

-----
*Actually, that's not entirely true. Women would get labeled for sexual promiscuity with whore or tramp or hussey, but that was for a specific kind of beef. All other situations were "bitch".

[Contrapuntal]

I can't get behind the "cunt" == "nigger" thing because I almost never hear two white guys calling each other niggers, but they call each other cunts all the time. "Nigger" has pretty much one specific meaning. Not when two black guys are saying it to each other.

[olivesmarch4th]

Many cultural "rules" make no sense to someone from another culture, who doesn't understand the first culture. That's a big problem/danger of "multiculturism". It encourages people to "avoid giving offense" to people of a different culture, rather than understand that culture. I've had black friends (and their relatives and friends whom I've met and talked with) who HATE (figuratively) white people who walk on eggshells around them, in an attempt to "avoid giving offense" because of "political correctness" & "multiculturalism". Those "white people" mostly come off as clueless, rather than "inclusive" or "tolerant". I get pissed [for you Brits, in the US that doesn't mean (even remotely) what it means to you] at all the politicians who say we need "an honest conversation on race in this country", who then proceed to avoid the issue. I've had those "conversations" with people of other races and cultures, for real, and the one conclusion we keep coming up with is that PC & MC are destructive, rather than helpful, for "them" or "us whites".

What's the relevance to this thread? We (meaning males) have a hard time bridging the linguistic gap between "our own" "racial" females. What chance do we have bridging the gap between "races", or even "southern redneck culture", if we can't even bridge the gap between "sexes" within our own culture? "Cunt", "Bitch", "Dick", "Prick", it's all the same as "Nigger" or "Cracker" between male/female vs. white/black. We ALL need to stop seeing people of other cultures as someone to "not offend", and rather see them as from a culture we want to understand and could, if only we would honestly try, learn something from.

End rant.Beautiful rant, Cheshire. People need to learn that accidentally causing offense to someone is not only not the end of the world, but actually necessary to get all this shit straightened out.

I'm female and not offended by the word cunt. I actually like the word; it's handy in erotic fiction. Bitch bothers me a little more, actually, because it's a far more common insult that tends to be thrown around with little discretion. To some people, a bitch is a seriously awful/mean woman. To other people, a bitch is an assertive woman or a woman who doesn't find their sexist jokes funny. And then there are men who casually use ''bitch'' interchangeably with ''female"--they do exist; I've known them.

In general, I don't understand why people are so afraid of words. I understand why they are offended by them, but I don't understand why they're so afraid of them that they have to control the speech of other people.

[NineToTheSky]

...In general, I don't understand why people are so afraid of words. I understand why they are offended by them, but I don't understand why they're so afraid of them that they have to control the speech of other people.
I don't think it's that people are afraid of words. It is that those who control a group (I don't know if you were specifically referring to the SD) are aware that some words are offensive to some people, and have decided to legislate on their behalf. But they won't be able to please everyone, so they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

[DWMarch]

Would that the women in my family were as easy to please.

I love this and I can't believe everyone else let it go...

You call the women of your family cunts and bitches and you think they're hard to please?! :D

[ivan astikov]

My favourite swearword is "shitstain"... when can we have a thread about that?

[Cheshire Human]

My favourite swearword is "shitstain"... when can we have a thread about that?

Suggested title:
On the use of that S (compound) word and WHY it is not an issue...

:D

[ivan astikov]

Suggested title:
On the use of that S (compound) word and WHY it is not an issue...

:D

So, GD or GQ - which one should it go in then?

[Cheshire Human]

Beautiful rant, Cheshire. People need to learn that accidentally causing offense to someone is not only not the end of the world, but actually necessary to get all this shit straightened out.

I love you, will you marry me...:D:D:D

[Cheshire Human]

So, GD or GQ - which one should it go in then?

It needs a new forum. DD [Dumbass Debates]. Let's ask the moderators for that one.

[Nzinga, Seated]

I can't get behind the "cunt" == "nigger" thing because I almost never hear two white guys calling each other niggers, but they call each other cunts all the time. "Nigger" has pretty much one specific meaning. "Cunt" is all over the place.

I am so thankful that before my daddy died when I was a kid, I had plenty of time to do things like watch and discuss Richard Pryor, and especially, watch and discuss George Carlin. He really did prepare me to live a life where I understood the power of words enough to know how to disarm them when I need to. No way could someone say anything that would cause me to ever hit that report button. No way. Words honestly have the power that you give them, and you can render them impotent if you so choose...just like magic. Which brings me to the word 'nigger/nigga'

SoulFrost, white men call eachother nigga all the time. Really. And black people call black people nigga, and black people call white people nigga, all the time. We do it so much (a lot of blacks I know, not speaking for all blacks) that it doesn't even register, and is not even meant as an insult at all.

The reason that it is used so much and so flippantly is because we really did take the word back, rather people want to accept that or not. We decided it is not going to cut us to our hearts every time someone hurls it at us. They are not backing it up with a fire hose or a K9 at our old grandmothers, they are trying to hurt us with the word alone, now. That aint gonna cut it. So we decided conciously not to be offended by it, completely took the bullets out of the word, now we toss it around like a nerf.

So yeah, a lot of women should probably consider getting over the whole 'cunt' is so offensive thing. Cause if you think about it, just like posters have pointed out, it really is insulting to think that the most offensive thing a person can say is actually just a natural part of our physical being. I mean, WTF.

[Cheshire Human]

The reason that it is used so much and so flippantly is because we really did take the word back...

[bold by me, to emphasize what I [CH] am referring to]

Hear! Hear! Gay is useless, now, too, as an insult, for the same reason. Don't like the word? Kill it's power. Then it's just a spoken sound. Words are nothing but sounds. They have no intrinsic meaning. Meaning is assigned by the speakers (and listeners). Don't like the meaning "they" assigned? Use it differently! Stop annoying the rest of us with your pet peeve! Kill the "word" instead!one!ELEBEN!!

[Nzinga, Seated]

Meaning is assigned by the speakers (and listeners).

Right. Mostly the listeners. If you are screaming 'Gay Niggers!' at the top of your lungs in a rage, and homosexual black people are smiling back at you like, "Sure. Have a beer and relax, my friend" because that word triggers no emotion in them anymore; we can effectively say that you aren't communicating what you wish to. You've been robbed.

[Contrapuntal]

Right. Mostly the listeners. If you are screaming 'Gay Niggers!' at the top of your lungs in a rage, and homosexual black people are smiling back at you like, "Sure. Have a beer and relax, my friend" because that word triggers no emotion in them anymore; we can effectively say that you aren't communicating what you wish to. You've been robbed.Help! The gay niggers robbed me!

[Nzinga, Seated]

Help! The gay niggers robbed me!


Sigh. I can't be laughing when I'm supposed to be working.

[bup]

Can we get a ruling that spelling its wrong is a moderatable offense? I get a lot more pissed off when I see it's when it should be its than when I see cunt.

And V****mort. Please don't use the V word.

[Cheshire Human]

Sigh. I can't be laughing when I'm supposed to be working.

If you can't laugh, scream about your "gay nigger" employer enslaving you! That would probably be worth a lawsuit or two... :D

[Dolores Reborn]

You know, I was a hater of the C word. Just yesterday I was discussing this - at work no less! It was kind of funny how we stepped around and whispered and stuff. It started with "Chicano."

After the whole debacle here, and this long thread (which I didn't read all of), and the culture of the Giraffe Boards - I think I'm just immune. I've heard it so much that it doesn't even mean anything anymore.

I won't be using it, but that's just habit. It's not my "curse of choice."

So fuck all of y'all motherfuckers, and let's just get over ourselves. ;)

[kayaker]

I won't be using it, but that's just habit. It's not my "curse of choice."

I'm with you. I'm a fucker, have been for years.

[AClockworkMelon]

SoulFrost, white men call eachother nigga all the time. Really. And black people call black people nigga, and black people call white people nigga, all the time. We do it so much (a lot of blacks I know, not speaking for all blacks) that it doesn't even register, and is not even meant as an insult at all.

The reason that it is used so much and so flippantly is because we really did take the word back, rather people want to accept that or not. We decided it is not going to cut us to our hearts every time someone hurls it at us. They are not backing it up with a fire hose or a K9 at our old grandmothers, they are trying to hurt us with the word alone, now. That aint gonna cut it. So we decided conciously not to be offended by it, completely took the bullets out of the word, now we toss it around like a nerf.Except when a white man uses it in the presence of a black man. Then all hell breaks loose.

[ivan astikov]

But why would a white man want to use it anyway? It's not big, and it's not clever!

[AClockworkMelon]

But why would a white man want to use it anyway? It's not big, and it's not clever!Go read the post I quoted again.

It doesn't matter that a white man wouldn't want to say it.

[Nzinga, Seated]

But why would a white man want to use it anyway? It's not big, and it's not clever!

Well, an interesting thing has been happening in the hood. White folks are starting to say it, and black folks are starting to 'let them'. I remember when hip hop was relatively young, we always had a 'white boy Mike' or a 'white boy Bill' in our circle that would hang out with us and sing every word except 'nigger/nigga'.

I remember lots of hip hop songs at the time discussing the word, claiming the word, reclaiming the word and philosophizing about it. (Sucka Niggas by Tribe is a good one). I used to always wonder why we could claim to be using the word as a term of endearment if we didn't 'allow' whites to do the same.

I am happy to notice that the younger hip hop generation is taking it to a new level, and whites are much more likely to feel comfortable using the word.

I mean, my great aunt Ruby isn't going to change. She is never going to tolerate hearing 'the n word' from me, no matter what. But a new generation is coming up that may be completely immune to that particular 'weapon', eventually.

ETA: Clockwork, if a white man uses that word aggressively, there is probably some other conflict going down that may cause him to get his ass bust. I don't think the word alone would spark much more than a quizzical look from most blacks I know. I don't know all blacks, though, of course.

[Mannish]

Except when a white man uses it in the presence of a black man. Then all hell breaks loose.

Meh, maybe if both are over 30...Nzinga is absolutely correct, among the youth this happens pretty regularly w/o all hell breaking loose.

[Dolores Reborn]

In my conversation I mentioned upthread, our lone black guy said that "nigger" doesn't really bother him. I thought maybe he just said that 'cuz he's the only black, but he seemed sincere. He's 39, for what that's worth.

[AClockworkMelon]

I am a member of the "youth" and I've never used nigger around black people. I have seen others use it around black people and take nothing but shit for it.

[Nzinga, Seated]

I am a member of the "youth" and I've never used nigger around black people. I have seen others use it around black people and take nothing but shit for it.

Hmm. Out of curiosity, do you live in a predominately black neighborhood? I imagine the only black in a hood of whites and hispanics may be more sensitive than usual to it.

[AClockworkMelon]

Hmm. Out of curiosity, do you live in a predominately black neighborhood? I imagine the only black in a hood of whites and hispanics may be more sensitive than usual to it.According to the high school website at the time I attended it the population was something like 73% Hispanic. There were about an equal number of blacks and whites, followed closely by American Indians.

*Shrug.* I'm not saying that there aren't black people who are OK with it. But I have several black friends and have hung around with many more black people that I would consider acquaintances, many of whom refer to me, along with their black friends, as "nigger" or "nigga" or whatever. They would all get upset if myself or any of their other white friends used the term.

I've had this discussion with some of my black friends before and they all seem to fall into one of two camps:

1.) The word is horrible and nobody should use it, including black people.
2.) It's "their" word.

Edit:That being said, when I get a text message or IM from a few white friends of mine I respond "My nigger." It makes me laugh and I tend to do what makes me laugh. :P
Edit 2: One of the most awkward things I'm doing atm is writing dialog for stereotypical black characters in a comic a black acquaintance is producing.

[Nzinga, Seated]

I've had this discussion with some of my black friends before and they all seem to fall into one of two camps:

1.) The word is horrible and nobody should use it, including black people.
2.) It's "their" word.

That being said, when I get a text message or IM from a few white friends of mine I respond "My nigger." It makes me laugh and I tend to do what makes me laugh. :P

Bolding mine; Aclockwork, your description is so alien to me, that our communication has just grinded to an absolute halt on my end. I can't even conceive of a 'youth' culture in America where blacks think the word shouldn't be used even amongst blacks!! Wow. That blows my mind right out of this conversation. You gotta understand...almost every black person I know uses this word, or finds it completely normal to hear in music, or the barbeque or on the street or whatever. From doctors to street hustlers. Color me astonished.

But not to let the hijack get too far away from us, I would say to blacks that get all weak and faint when they hear 'nigger' the same thing I say to women that press the report button when they hear 'cunt'. Don't let the word bother you. Disarm it; you have the power.

[AClockworkMelon]

Bolding mine; Aclockwork, your description is so alien to me, that our communication has just grinded to an absolute halt on my end. I can't even conceive of a 'youth' culture in America where blacks think the word shouldn't be used even amongst blacks!! Wow. That blows my mind right out of this conversation. You gotta understand...almost every black person I know uses this word, or finds it completely normal to hear in music, or the barbeque or on the street or whatever. From doctors to street hustlers. Color me astonished. The majority of black people I know use the word. But yes, I do have black friends who don't like the word at all.

But not to let the hijack get too far away from us, I would say to blacks that get all weak and faint when they hear 'nigger' the same thing I say to women that press the report button when they hear 'cunt'. Don't let the word bother you. Disarm it; you have the power.Word, nigga.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Word, nigga.

Protip: when white people say 'nigga' they tend to over-emphasize the 'ga' part. It should roll nicely off the tongue, more like 'niggeh'. Hard to explain. Practice, practice, practice, though!

[AClockworkMelon]

Protip: when white people say 'nigga' they tend to over-emphasize the 'ga' part. It should roll nicely off the tongue, more like 'niggeh'. Hard to explain. Practice, practice, practice, though!And all this time I've been saying it like Uncle Stinkbeaner!

"NeeeuuKKKAAA!"

[Cheshire Human]

But why would a white man want to use it anyway? It's not big, and it's not clever!

Maybe not, but them niggaz got bigger dicks than us whities. We gotta protect our wimmin from finding that out, or we won't ever git laid again! :D

[Translucent Daydream]

Being the possessor of my own personal cunt...

Cite.


:D

[DWMarch]

I am happy to notice that the younger hip hop generation is taking it to a new level, and whites are much more likely to feel comfortable using the word.

As an anecdote, I was listening to a friend's Sirius radio once. He had it on the hip-hop station, which had listeners calling in between songs. Every other word was "nigga" even though you could easily tell by the voices that the callers were predominantly white. The DJs (who were black) didn't give them any kind of shit for it even though they must have known it was nothing but white guys calling in just for the thrill of saying "nigga" on the radio.

[Joanie]

FYI ... On a tangent ...

I have found that some people are now using terms like "F-word" or "C-word" instead of the original objectionable word and proceeding to flame or quarrel exactly as before with this one small substitution.

If people generally understand what "N-word" and "C-word" means and they understand they are just being used as replacement strings for the original word, then how much of an objection can people have to the original word?

It may sound less offensive to call someone a "C-word" than it is to call them the original ugly word. But, if everyone knows what is going on, then how much less offensive is it really?

My feeling is that it is a fun way to poke fun at people who consider the word itself to be offensive and not the context in which it appears. As some moderator here said in a previous thread, offensive language is all about context. A word, in and of itself, can't really be considered to be offensive just because of the word itself - at least, not by a rational thinking person. It is the context in which it appears that makes all the difference. You could create a bot (robot) that goes through this board and simply deletes all words considered offensive. But, I think we have all seen the problem with trying that. Certain words that are usually used in an offensive manner can also be used in a completely inoffensive manner.


Then again, someone can get offended by most anything if they set their mind agin' it.

[NineToTheSky]

FYI ... On a tangent ...

I have found that some people are now using terms like "F-word" or "C-word" instead of the original objectionable word and proceeding to flame or quarrel exactly as before with this one small substitution.

If people generally understand what "N-word" and "C-word" means and they understand they are just being used as replacement strings for the original word, then how much of an objection can people have to the original word?

It may sound less offensive to call someone a "C-word" than it is to call them the original ugly word. But, if everyone knows what is going on, then how much less offensive is it really?

My feeling is that it is a fun way to poke fun at people who consider the word itself to be offensive and not the context in which it appears. As some moderator here said in a previous thread, offensive language is all about context. A word, in and of itself, can't really be considered to be offensive just because of the word itself - at least, not by a rational thinking person. It is the context in which it appears that makes all the difference. You could create a bot (robot) that goes through this board and simply deletes all words considered offensive. But, I think we have all seen the problem with trying that. Certain words that are usually used in an offensive manner can also be used in a completely inoffensive manner.


Then again, someone can get offended by most anything if they set their mind agin' it.

In what context is 'cunt' not offensive? Surely its purpose is to be offensive. You don't hear people going around saying 'God, you're a vagina', do you? Without the offence, it becomes meaningless.

[twickster]

Heck, they're called euphemisms, and they've been a feature of the English freakin' language since, dang, whenever.

[AClockworkMelon]

If you're saying "freaking" everyone knows you mean "fucking." That means that it's not the meaning of the word that's offensive, but rather the arrangement of letters and sounds. That's superstition.

[NineToTheSky]

Heck, they're called euphemisms, and they've been a feature of the English freakin' language since, dang, whenever.

I'm sorry to be pedantic, but cunt isn't a euphemism for vagina: the opposite, in fact. It's an offensive word for vagina.

From Wiki:
A euphemism is a substitution with an agreeable or less offensive expression in place of one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant to the receiver.

Your examples are euphemisms: heck is a watering down of hell, freakin' is fucking, and dang is damn. (I believe.)

[twickster]

You may consider it superstition, but you don't get to decide what other people are or aren't offended by. That's the underlying issue here, as has been stated many times. The fact that you don't think people should be offended by certain words is utterly irrelevant.

[AClockworkMelon]

What if a large group of, say, Muslims or Christians, came onto the boards complaining about how offensive they find all the religious discussions that take place here? What makes their case weaker than someone who's offended by the use of the word "cunt"?

Would the board's rules change to reflect all the offended parties?

[Joanie]

In what context is 'cunt' not offensive? Surely its purpose is to be offensive. You don't hear people going around saying 'God, you're a vagina', do you? Without the offence, it becomes meaningless.

It seems to me that you have just answered your own question.

You used the word and it was not offensive - at least not to me - not in the context you used it. In that context, I can't imagine it being offensive to any rational person. But, of course, anyone is free to draw as much offense as they would like from your post.

I found your post to be not at all offensive and the context in which you used the word is one of the situations in which I believe it can be used in an inoffensive manner.

There are other uses of the word that would not seem to be offensive. For example, in a dictionary or an encyclopedia. An inquiring mind that has heard the word for the first time should be able to go somewhere and learn what the word means.


But, I'm curious why you wrote that post. Did you want to get into a discussion/debate/argument/quarrel with me? I certainly don't want to get into any of those things with you.

I hope you are willing to now shake hands and go to neutral corners. I certainly am willing to do that.

[twickster]

There's a difference between areas of subject matter and specific words (which themselves may or may not be offensive, depending on the subject matter).

[NineToTheSky]

Joanie:

I would very much like to respond (discuss, debate, not to argue or quarrel) to your post - after all, this is a message board where we have discussions - but if you'd rather not, I won't.

[Irishman]

NineToTheSky said:
I'm sorry to be pedantic, but cunt isn't a euphemism for vagina:

I do believe that twickster was replying to Joanie, not you.

[twickster]

Yes, I was, specifically to her saying
It may sound less offensive to call someone a "C-word" than it is to call them the original ugly word. But, if everyone knows what is going on, then how much less offensive is it really?
"C-word" is a euphemism, and Joanie seemed to think that euphemisms were some new and unusual function of language.

My apologies, Nine, I somehow missed your post about that the first time around. In any case, I should have clarified at the time who I was responding to, since I did see that you had said something else before my post, in which I failed to quote the material I was responding to, was up.