Peremensoe
04-22-2010, 11:22 AM
This thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=560571) began with a question about the band KISS--who are not considered "punk rock"--but the subject of the Ramones was raised, and their occasional use of Nazi imagery and/or lyric references.
Some quick research turned up some material which may be of interest. To avoid the perception of "hijack," and also to call the topic to the attention of some who probably skipped the other thread, I thought I'd start a new one.
The Ramones never wore swastika T-shirts. And only Joey was Jewish.
Founding member Tommy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Ramone) was Jewish as well, in a scene that included a number of others.
Lou Reed, Joey and Tommy Ramone, Suicide's Martin Rev and Alan Vega, Jonathan Richman, Patti Smith Group guitarist Lenny Kaye, Richard Hell, Blondie's Chris Stein, CBGB's founder Hilly Kristal--the list of Jewish punk notables is lengthy, and impressive.
I didn't find a reliable reference or image of any Ramone in a swastika shirt, but they certainly had a few swastikas around them. From this site (http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/punkandtheswastika.htm),
What cannot be denied, is the use of Nazi symbols, imagery and look in the initial styles and fashion of punk rock and scattered references in a handful of songs.
...
Arturo Veag was by 1974 decorating the Ramones loft in dayglo swastikas.
They did have songs called 'Blitzkrieg Bop' and 'Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World' (lyrics: I'm a shock trooper in a stupor yes I am/I'm a Nazi schatze you know I fight for the fatherland), though. I don't think they did it for shock value as much as to represent mindlessness.
And indeed, there was more to it than that, as Dee Dee's ex-wife's book (http://www.amazon.com/Poisoned-Heart-Married-Ramone-Ramones/dp/1597776122/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271952474&sr=8-2) (also reviewed here (http://www.avclub.com/articles/i-married-dee-dee-ramone,29285/)) makes clear.
It was during his time off that I noticed that he shaved his whole face as usual, except for a small patch that started under his nose and went to the top of his upper lip. In a week he had a Hitler mustache, resembling the very picture of the crazy, despicable German dictator. Dee Dee also started wearing a swastika-d Nazi armband on his upper-left arm.
Delving deeper (http://www.newvilnareview.com/arts-amp-letters/jewish-punks-embrace-nazi-rhetoric-and-imagery.html), it really seems like many Jewish punks/rockers have a curious relationship with Nazism and the Holocaust.
Since its origins in the 1970s, the punk scene has prominently featured many Jews. Many of those Jews and their bands have had a striking fascination with Nazi symbolism.
...
The Ramones exemplify what Australian cultural studies professor Jon Stratton has identified as the “Jew/Nazi dyad in punk bands.”
...
Tavares finds the style of humor inherent in Jewish punks’ Holocaust rhetoric consistent with longstanding Jewish traditions. “That typical self-irony of the ‘Judenwitz’ exists for centuries and is of course a way of dealing with all the hardship of anti-Semitism. You can cry about it, but you can also laugh it away,” says Tavares.
(The Stratton paper is available here (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=271772).)
The Austerlitz review (http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Music/2007/04/Jewish-Punk.aspx) of this book (http://www.amazon.com/Heebie-Jeebies-CBGBs-Secret-History-Jewish/dp/155652613X/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0) explains,
Beeber's book sees punk as a specifically Jewish outgrowth of post-Holocaust awareness--and shame. A new generation of Jewish boys sought to express their horror at the concentration camps by caustically embracing fascist aesthetics and an iconography of raw power.
...
Seeing the Holocaust as a moment of tragic weakness, the Jewish punks sought to never be weak again.
Or so Beeber says.
Interesting. I'm neither "punk" (though I like the Ramones, and some of the other bands) nor Jewish. Those closer to the scene and subject: does all this ring true?
Some quick research turned up some material which may be of interest. To avoid the perception of "hijack," and also to call the topic to the attention of some who probably skipped the other thread, I thought I'd start a new one.
The Ramones never wore swastika T-shirts. And only Joey was Jewish.
Founding member Tommy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Ramone) was Jewish as well, in a scene that included a number of others.
Lou Reed, Joey and Tommy Ramone, Suicide's Martin Rev and Alan Vega, Jonathan Richman, Patti Smith Group guitarist Lenny Kaye, Richard Hell, Blondie's Chris Stein, CBGB's founder Hilly Kristal--the list of Jewish punk notables is lengthy, and impressive.
I didn't find a reliable reference or image of any Ramone in a swastika shirt, but they certainly had a few swastikas around them. From this site (http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/punkandtheswastika.htm),
What cannot be denied, is the use of Nazi symbols, imagery and look in the initial styles and fashion of punk rock and scattered references in a handful of songs.
...
Arturo Veag was by 1974 decorating the Ramones loft in dayglo swastikas.
They did have songs called 'Blitzkrieg Bop' and 'Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World' (lyrics: I'm a shock trooper in a stupor yes I am/I'm a Nazi schatze you know I fight for the fatherland), though. I don't think they did it for shock value as much as to represent mindlessness.
And indeed, there was more to it than that, as Dee Dee's ex-wife's book (http://www.amazon.com/Poisoned-Heart-Married-Ramone-Ramones/dp/1597776122/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271952474&sr=8-2) (also reviewed here (http://www.avclub.com/articles/i-married-dee-dee-ramone,29285/)) makes clear.
It was during his time off that I noticed that he shaved his whole face as usual, except for a small patch that started under his nose and went to the top of his upper lip. In a week he had a Hitler mustache, resembling the very picture of the crazy, despicable German dictator. Dee Dee also started wearing a swastika-d Nazi armband on his upper-left arm.
Delving deeper (http://www.newvilnareview.com/arts-amp-letters/jewish-punks-embrace-nazi-rhetoric-and-imagery.html), it really seems like many Jewish punks/rockers have a curious relationship with Nazism and the Holocaust.
Since its origins in the 1970s, the punk scene has prominently featured many Jews. Many of those Jews and their bands have had a striking fascination with Nazi symbolism.
...
The Ramones exemplify what Australian cultural studies professor Jon Stratton has identified as the “Jew/Nazi dyad in punk bands.”
...
Tavares finds the style of humor inherent in Jewish punks’ Holocaust rhetoric consistent with longstanding Jewish traditions. “That typical self-irony of the ‘Judenwitz’ exists for centuries and is of course a way of dealing with all the hardship of anti-Semitism. You can cry about it, but you can also laugh it away,” says Tavares.
(The Stratton paper is available here (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=271772).)
The Austerlitz review (http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Music/2007/04/Jewish-Punk.aspx) of this book (http://www.amazon.com/Heebie-Jeebies-CBGBs-Secret-History-Jewish/dp/155652613X/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0) explains,
Beeber's book sees punk as a specifically Jewish outgrowth of post-Holocaust awareness--and shame. A new generation of Jewish boys sought to express their horror at the concentration camps by caustically embracing fascist aesthetics and an iconography of raw power.
...
Seeing the Holocaust as a moment of tragic weakness, the Jewish punks sought to never be weak again.
Or so Beeber says.
Interesting. I'm neither "punk" (though I like the Ramones, and some of the other bands) nor Jewish. Those closer to the scene and subject: does all this ring true?