Pastor asked (forced) to leave town

[TV time]

Locally, a minister (Baptist) was forced to leave town this weekend. He and his wife were just too liberal for the locals. I was not of their flock and I realize that the church elders have the right to ax any minister they have chosen for any reason they choose, I guess. He didn't get run out for easing off the hell fire and brimstone, which he did, or the suggestion that the church was a journey and not an end in itself. The beginning of the end came when his wife, a blond, put a purple streak in her hair. Apparently, loud gasps were heard the Sunday when she was first seen with it. I, myself (not a person usually on the mainline of the local gossip - I imagine I am more often the subject), heard the rumor, "Well, a minister's wife should not behave that way. Well, really, she is a minister's wife."

The final straw came when the word got out that the wife was going to serve as a surrogate for a couple in Sweden and have their child. That apparently was bad, but even worse was the fact that the company that facilated the surrogacy (sp?) had been known to serve as a conduit for gay couples having children. The deacons felt that was sinful. I am shaking my head as I type. I don't know what I am more amazed at, that those type of people still exist, or that I am amazed that those types of people still exist. He and his wife got their walking papers for that however. On Wednesday they were told they would have to leave by the end of May. When the word got out that the minister would preach his Sunday sermon on "Judge not least ye be judged," (the "ye" is probably me King Jamesing the quote, he was probably going to do it in modern) He was told he would not be permitted to preach again from the local pulpit. He did not. He left town that same Sunday, four days after being told he was fired.

I am not religious. I tend to be anti. I do not go to church and I don't find I like the people who do regularly (probably a gross and unfair generalization), but still I was upset a minister or any person got the ax this way although if he hadn't I probably wouldn't have gone to the church. Or maybe I would have, but only to irritate those who wanted to get rid of him, and that isn't a really good reason to go to church, I guess.

Anyway, what are your reactions?

[Shodan]

How exactly did they force him to leave town? Or do you mean he was fired from his pastorate?

Regards,
Shodan

[TV time]

How exactly did they force him to leave town? Or do you mean he was fired from his pastorate?

Regards,
ShodanHe was fired from his pastorate and with it went his house and with no job, no home and the rejection of those he has preached to for a year or so, I guess he felt he had to leave.

[Hampshire]

I'm not suprised that a congregation of loonies didn't like what this guy was doing and showed him the door.
I'm probably more suprised that this guy was involved with this looney church. Sounds like he and his wife are liberal thinking christians and could probably find a church that is a better fit for them.
Did he think it was his mission to get baptists to "lighten up"? Good luck with that.

[Shodan]

I don't suppose you have a cite for this?

No offense, but I am reminded a little of the Kaitlyn fiasco.

Regards,
Shodan

[TV time]

I don't suppose you have a cite for this?

No offense, but I am reminded a little of the Kaitlyn fiasco.

Regards,
ShodanI'm not even sure who Kaitlyn is. Nah, no cite. Local minister leaves after clash with elders. Who would pick it up? Who would think it would be worth a cite? Maybe the guy or his wife mentioned it on a facebook page or something, or one of the younger members of the congregation, but that would be about it, I imagine.

And Hampshire, I don't think his mission was to "lighten up" the local church so much and he saw a different church evolving during his time in the pulpit than the locals wanted. And the funny part was it wasn't so much the church stuff that got him sent off, I think they might have tolerated that, maybe, it was the other stuff. And I'm not sure they're really "loonies". Remember, this is a small town and rural. They may, deep down inside, feel threatened by this new fangled hair and way of having children, and probably religious philosophy, too, I guess. After all, traditionally religion is a solid bastion of conservatism. And really, how many even liberal congregations can point to a minister's wife with purple streaks in her hair and planning on surving as a surrogate for a pair of foreign persons. I personally thought it was cool, but I don't have children in her/their Sunday School class.

[Freudian Slit]

I'm not suprised that a congregation of loonies didn't like what this guy was doing and showed him the door.
I'm probably more suprised that this guy was involved with this looney church. Sounds like he and his wife are liberal thinking christians and could probably find a church that is a better fit for them.
Did he think it was his mission to get baptists to "lighten up"? Good luck with that.

I was surprised that a guy like that would end up in a place that's that narrow minded. I hope this ends up being a blessing in disguise and he ends up finding a haven of people who do appreciate him.

[KneadToKnow]

I'm not even sure who Kaitlyn is.

This (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=304199), I believe, was the upshot of it all, with examples.

[Necros]

I don't suppose you have a cite for this?

No offense, but I am reminded a little of the Kaitlyn fiasco.

Weird. Are you saying TV time is not who he says he is? Or the event didn't happen?:confused: FWIW, which may not be much, I have met TV time in person. He seemed like a stand-up guy at the time.

[TV time]

I was surprised that a guy like that would end up in a place that's that narrow minded. I hope this ends up being a blessing in disguise and he ends up finding a haven of people who do appreciate him.I'm not sure what his background was but I get the feeling this was his first posting, and I think he was a bit more conservative when he started. I have been told he is going to take a social worker type job in a middle-sized city working with youth. He feels he had his biggest successes with young people.
He has let it be known that he doesn't want any involvement with organized religion. This was said at the height of this whole deal however, so he may mellow on that.

[Algher]

Baptist Minister who preaches a bit different than the Southern Baptists I grew up with:
- Life is a Journey, as opposed to asking if you are RIGHT NOW Baptized in the Blood, or just the water.
- Pulls back on fire & brimstone

So the sermons might not be appreciated. But then what happens?

- Wife dresses in a different fashion. Sorry - purple streaks in the hair are outside of the norm, and I live in Southern California.
- Wife is acting as a surrogate, instead of having babies for themselves.
- Wife is acting as a surrogate for someone who might not be raising the child as a good Christian Baptist?

The Southern Baptist church has said that the wife should submit to the husband. This also means that the wife's actions reflect on the husbands.

And you wonder why they might not keep their contract? I attend a liberal church, and if our Minister started reducing the social justice sermons it would get some people wondering. If his wife started attending tea party meetings, the Elders just might start talking about whether it was time for us to interview a new Minister. If they then found out he was going to go out in style, they would probably choose to not allow that.

The Minister is an employee. This employee no longer reflected the desires of his employer, and lost his job. Welcome to at-will employment.

[Dangerosa]

That's a shame. Its also the life of a minister. A friend of mine was a minister's daughter...and her Dad had some personality issues. She spent her life moving from town to town as he'd get called, then manage to piss off his congregation, lose his job (which, as pointed out, includes the house) and start looking for another job. (He tended to get too fire and brimstoney).

This is an uplifting story about a minister whose church fired him and the consequences: http://www.uuworld.org/life/articles/145503.shtml

[Czarcasm]

I don't suppose you have a cite for this?

No offense, but I am reminded a little of the Kaitlyn fiasco.

Regards,
Shodan[Moderator Note]I shouldn't have to remind you that hinting like this is not allowed. If you want to make an accusation, email or PM the Moderators.[/Moderator Note]

[LurkerInNJ]

His lifestyle, values and beliefs were a far cry from those of his congregation.

Other than the fact that one or both parties should have noticed this during the vetting process, I don't see what the issue is.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Anyway, what are your reactions?
Unsurprised. Except that you thought this merited a Pit thread. The church is within its rights, and he obviously didn't mesh well with his congregation.

It's a church. A Baptist church. Intolerance ain't exactly in short supply.

[TV time]

Unsurprised. Except that you thought this merited a Pit thread.No, No I didn't (homage to Phineas and Ferb). I thought it was worthy of IMHO. I just wanted to get others' reaction to see how they correlated with mine.

[kanicbird]

The true servants of the Lord will be persecuted. Jesus offers freedom from laws and rules through grace. Jesus will make a way for His people who follow him regardless of man's rules.

Locally, a minister (Baptist) was forced to leave town this weekend. He and his wife were just too liberal for the locals. I was not of their flock

Scripturally a pastor is not a shepherd, they are 2 separate gifts from the Holy Spirit. In my experience shepherds are part of the 'invisible' church and is actually the Lord acting through certain people, which IMHO is rarely the pastor. So you would not be of his flock, but if anything the Lord's flock.

[Boyo Jim]

Couldn't he have compromised and allowed the congregation to stone his wife to death? Or maybe put her to some kind of possession test with a dunking stool? I mean, he didn't do anything wrong.

[Thudlow Boink]

Scripturally a pastor is not a shepherd, they are 2 separate gifts from the Holy Spirit. Etymologically, a pastor is a shepherd.

[Guinastasia]

Isn't surrogacy actually illegal?

ETA: Warning -- you do NOT want get into a theological discussion with Kanicbird. Not if you value your sanity.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Isn't surrogacy actually illegal?
Depends on the state. Even then, state laws may be confused and confusing.

Surrogacy laws by state (http://www.hrc.org/issues/2486.htm)

[kunilou]

I've been a member of two congregations that pushed their pastors out because a significant portion of each congregration simply didn't like them anymore. Happens all the time.

I suspect the church the OP refers to will lose a few members and get a few members back. When they get around to calling a new pastor, they'll lose a few members and get a few new ones.

[StGermain]

So the pastor changed dramatically from what he was when he was hired. He even professed not believing in religion (not good for the job security) and he was fired. It doesn't sound like he fit the job description any longer.

StG

[Diogenes the Cynic]

This seems like kind of a "lie down with dogs" scenario to me. If you're going to take a job preaching to a bunch of right wing religious fundies, don't be surprised when they act like right wing religious fundies.

[Alan Smithee]

Doesn't surrogacy nearly always involve creating a lot of embryos, implanting several and freezing the rest indefinitely, then aborting all but one or two of the fetuses? That's not something I'd expect the Baptists to be jazzed about.

[handsomeharry]

Locally, a minister (Baptist) was forced to leave town this weekend. He and his wife were just too liberal for the locals. I was not of their flock and I realize that the church elders have the right to ax any minister they have chosen for any reason they choose, I guess. He didn't get run out for easing off the hell fire and brimstone, which he did, or the suggestion that the church was a journey and not an end in itself. The beginning of the end came when his wife, a blond, put a purple streak in her hair. Apparently, loud gasps were heard the Sunday when she was first seen with it. I, myself (not a person usually on the mainline of the local gossip - I imagine I am more often the subject), heard the rumor, "Well, a minister's wife should not behave that way. Well, really, she is a minister's wife."

The final straw came when the word got out that the wife was going to serve as a surrogate for a couple in Sweden and have their child. That apparently was bad, but even worse was the fact that the company that facilated the surrogacy (sp?) had been known to serve as a conduit for gay couples having children. The deacons felt that was sinful. I am shaking my head as I type. I don't know what I am more amazed at, that those type of people still exist, or that I am amazed that those types of people still exist. He and his wife got their walking papers for that however. On Wednesday they were told they would have to leave by the end of May. When the word got out that the minister would preach his Sunday sermon on "Judge not least ye be judged," (the "ye" is probably me King Jamesing the quote, he was probably going to do it in modern) He was told he would not be permitted to preach again from the local pulpit. He did not. He left town that same Sunday, four days after being told he was fired.

I am not religious. I tend to be anti. I do not go to church and I don't find I like the people who do regularly (probably a gross and unfair generalization), but still I was upset a minister or any person got the ax this way although if he hadn't I probably wouldn't have gone to the church. Or maybe I would have, but only to irritate those who wanted to get rid of him, and that isn't a really good reason to go to church, I guess.

Anyway, what are your reactions?

I think that the purple bit in the hair was fine, and I also believe that the congregation would have given that a pass. Even a Baptist one.
The surrogacy thing is a bit weird, tho. Of my limited knowledge of that kind of stuff (extremely limited) isn't the norm that a single person is the carrier? It sounds like something that would end in litigation, and what church needs that? Kinda weird, to me, anyway. Isn't there anybody in all of Sweden that can be a surrogate?
The minister's social values were at odds with those of a 'social' kind of job. I say tough noogies for the pastor.It was a bad fit, and why cry about that? If I were called to the pastorate of, I don't know, Robert Schuller's church, and a few months later I got the boot, I would have to say that I was as much at fault as the church. No fault.

Best wishes,
hh

[GuanoLad]

I'm the least churchy, most non-religious atheist you're likely to meet, and don't have any problem with the Pastor and wife's lifestyle, but I agree with the Church's actions. It seems like a perfectly fair reason for dismissal to me.

[Shodan]

[Moderator Note]I shouldn't have to remind you that hinting like this is not allowed. If you want to make an accusation, email or PM the Moderators.[/Moderator Note]
I am not hinting anything.

Kaitlyn told a story that was a little too good to be true. Here we have a story of a saintly Baptist couple cruelly forced from their jobs by the narrow-minded bigots in their congregation, purely because the wife had purple hair and wanted to be a surrogate for Swedes.

This is a story that will go over big on the SDMB - it makes religious people look bad, and involves a mention of homosexuals and surrogacy. But the story is not based on first-hand information, and there is no independent verification. Even the OP refers to the story as nothing more than rumors, and from someone self-described as anti-religion.

Yet the SDMB swallows it hook, line, and sinker, and even the mods bristle at any questioning of the account.

The much-vaunted skepticism of the SDMB doesn't seem to get applied very much to certain kinds of gossip.

Regards,
Shodan

[Yllaria]

Doesn't surrogacy nearly always involve creating a lot of embryos, implanting several and freezing the rest indefinitely, then aborting all but one or two of the fetuses? That's not something I'd expect the Baptists to be jazzed about.

I can't argue with the 'nearly always', because it does seem like a standard practice, but it's not required. For the doctors, it's a numbers game. Each embryo only has a certain percentage chance of sticking. And the cost of each round of implantation is high. So they want to plant enough embryos to have a very good chance of having at least one stick. Say, implant five expecting one or two to stick.

So it's what they'll suggest, but you can override them as long as you acknowledge that you're increasing your chance that you'll have to spring for another round at $20,000 plus. My sister drew the line at three. It worked. For a surrogate, I'd imagine that the decision might involve a few more people.

[Lightnin']

Perhaps, if the story offends you so much, Shodan, you should post your evidence which shows that the OP is lying.

Yesterday, I caused a huge stink at my office by bringing in a new office chair, because the chairs they provide here hurt my back. According to you, I shouldn't be able to post this (in the In My Humble OPINION subforum) because I don't have any sort of citation which proves it happened.

[TV time]

I am not hinting anything.

Kaitlyn told a story that was a little too good to be true. Here we have a story of a saintly Baptist couple cruelly forced from their jobs by the narrow-minded bigots in their congregation, purely because the wife had purple hair and wanted to be a surrogate for Swedes.Jeez, Shodan, you're being a pain. I didn't say the couple was "saintly". I never called the people "narrow minded bigots" and I said she put a purple streak in her hair.

This is a story that will go over big on the SDMB - it makes religious people look bad, and involves a mention of homosexuals and surrogacy. But the story is not based on first-hand information, and there is no independent verification. Even the OP refers to the story as nothing more than rumors, and from someone self-described as anti-religion. In a small town, when everyone knows something, that's about as first-hand as a thing can get. Regarding independent verification, CNN doesn't get out here much, sorry. It happened. If you can't believe it, I'm sorry about that too. I have tried to be as objective as possible telling about it. Regarding the entire story being a rumor. No, I did not say that...look at it again. I said after the wife appeared in church with the purple streak in her hair, the rumors were so rampant, I heard them. You also said I was "someone self-described as anti-religion". Out here when someone says he "tends to be anti", that falls a bit short of your translations of my words.

Shodan, it was something that happened in a community in which I live. I shared it on this board (another community in which I live) and I reacted to it and I asked others for their reaction. If you choose to be skeptical, that is your right. I have been on this board around a decade, maybe a bit more, and I don't believe I have the reputation of creating stories from whole cloth. Maybe that's why people choose to believe it, that and because it is true.

[FriarTed]

I have no trouble believing it happened. I've been involved in churches for 35 years- seen ministers come & go for various reasons, some leaving the same way they arrived- "fired with enthusiasm". My own church has just narrowly avoided a split after the elders ousted a pastor that I personally like very much but who apparently had faulty judgment in being overly gracious about some situations he should have been stricted on. The situation still sucks- I'd have no problem being in a church he pastors in the future but I do hope he learns something from this & I can't see how his firing could have been avoided this time.

And I see that there are enough people on the SDMB here who can't muster up any outrage, so if the story was tailor-made for the board, it kinda failed.

I think there was probably a LOT more things before the purple streak. And I have no problem with surrogacy being a cause for the ouster. That whole situation just sounds weird (Sweden?).

[Shodan]

According to you, I shouldn't be able to post this (in the In My Humble OPINION subforum) because I don't have any sort of citation which proves it happened.So your position is that the OP should be allowed to post, 'In My Humble OPINION, this piece of gossip is true', but I should not be allowed to post ''In My Humble OPINION, this piece of gossip is a little questionable'.

Like I said, skepticism about anything anti-religious tends to be a little thin on the ground here on the SDMB.

Regards,
Shodan

[TV time]

I am not hinting anything.

Kaitlyn told a story that was a little too good to be true. Here we have a story of a saintly Baptist couple cruelly forced from their jobs by the narrow-minded bigots in their congregation, purely because the wife had purple hair and wanted to be a surrogate for Swedes.Jeez, Shodan, your being a pain. I didn't say the couple was saintly. I never called the people "narrow minded bigots" and I said she put a purple streak in her hair.

This is a story that will go over big on the SDMB - it makes religious people look bad, and involves a mention of homosexuals and surrogacy. But the story is not based on first-hand information, and there is no independent verification. Even the OP refers to the story as nothing more than rumors, and from someone self-described as anti-religion. In a small town, when everyone knows something, that's about as first-hand as a thing can get. Regarding independent verification, CNN doesn't get out here much, sorry. It happened. If you can't believe it, I'm sorry about that too. I have tried to be as objective as possible telling about it. Regarding the entire story being a rumor. No, I did not say that...look at it again. I said after the wife appeared in church with the purple streak in her hair, the rumors were so rampant, I heard them. You also said I was "someone self-described as anti-religion". Out here when someone says he "tends to be anti", that falls a bit short of your translations of my words.

Shodan, it was something that happened in a community in which I live. I shared it on this board (another community in which I live) and I reacted to it and I asked others for their reaction. If you choose to be skeptical, that is your right. I have been on this board around a decade, maybe a bit more, and I don't believe I have the reputation of creating stories from whole cloth. Maybe that's why people choose to believe it, that and because it is true.

[Caricci]

It doesn't sound unlikely to me at all.

My own father was fired from a church, many years ago, for marrying too soon after divorcing my mother and this was from a UCC church (the welcoming church, nowadays).

I know of another minister who was fired for running a counseling practice out of his church office and not inviting parishoners to the parsonage enough.

And another minister of which I am aware was fired for believing that a murderer in his church was innocent before he was proven guilty. It was a terrible crime and he was proven guilty eventually, btw.

Firing a minister who wishes to remain a minister does generally mean he or she has to leave town, because it's not like there are many churches of the same denomination in a given town and certainly not churches that need a minister.

[Czarcasm]

So your position is that the OP should be allowed to post, 'In My Humble OPINION, this piece of gossip is true', but I should not be allowed to post ''In My Humble OPINION, this piece of gossip is a little questionable'.

Like I said, skepticism about anything anti-religious tends to be a little thin on the ground here on the SDMB.

Regards,
Shodan[Moderator Note]As you well know, complaints about how the board is run belong in ATMB, not IMHO.[/Moderator Note]

[Chicagojeff]

So your position is that the OP should be allowed to post, 'In My Humble OPINION, this piece of gossip is true', but I should not be allowed to post ''In My Humble OPINION, this piece of gossip is a little questionable'.

Like I said, skepticism about anything anti-religious tends to be a little thin on the ground here on the SDMB.

Regards,
Shodan

Wow somebody needs to reassess their touchy meter. I'm fairly agnostic don't regularly attend church.. and I find what the congregation and/or the board of directors did was perfectly fine. You are assuming that everyone will see it as you see it. This liberal Mother Jones reading dude finds it to be perfectly acceptable to give a minister his walking papers when the congregation finds his actions/beliefs to be out of line with theirs.

[CrazyCatLady]

Firing a minister who wishes to remain a minister does generally mean he or she has to leave town, because it's not like there are many churches of the same denomination in a given town and certainly not churches that need a minister.

Depends on the denomination and the location, really. In certain areas it's not uncommon to have multiple Baptist churches in a town of a few thousand people. It's a crapshoot as to whether any given one will need a new minister at any given time, sure, but given the rate at which churches around home split, it doesn't seem terribly unlikely that you could find something.

As for the OP's story, I have no problem with them firing him. It's part of the whole having a job thing--you don't do your job to your boss's satisfaction, out the door your ass goes. And a conservative Baptist congregation in a small town is not terribly likely to be satisfied with the sorts of changes he's making, nor with his apparent personal lifestyle choices. Yes, your personal lifestyle is relevant when you're a minister, because you're there as a guide for other people's lifestyles.

But yeah, the story does sound... a bit off. I was with you right up till the international surrogacy, which frankly doesn't make a bit of sense to me--they couldn't find a surrogate on the same continent with them? If she felt the need to be a surrogate, she couldn't find someone on this continent to do it for? At the very least, it implies that there's more to this story than what you've heard or are telling us.

[TV time]

But yeah, the story does sound... a bit off. I was with you right up till the international surrogacy, which frankly doesn't make a bit of sense to me--they couldn't find a surrogate on the same continent with them? If she felt the need to be a surrogate, she couldn't find someone on this continent to do it for? At the very least, it implies that there's more to this story than what you've heard or are telling us.I will see what I can find out about the surrogacy group.

[Freudian Slit]

So your position is that the OP should be allowed to post, 'In My Humble OPINION, this piece of gossip is true', but I should not be allowed to post ''In My Humble OPINION, this piece of gossip is a little questionable'.

Like I said, skepticism about anything anti-religious tends to be a little thin on the ground here on the SDMB.

But everything is gossip by that standard. When a poster talks about his dog or cat, we don't know that he's not making it up (unless that's why we demand pics). I mean, it's true of pretty much anything, whether it's bitching about an acquaintance or bragging about something good. Why so skeptical when this is something that doesn't seem to be all that unusual?

[Shodan]

[Moderator Note]As you well know, complaints about how the board is run belong in ATMB, not IMHO.[/Moderator Note]As you well know, I was not making any complaints about how the board was run either.

My post was addressed to Lightnin' - as far as I know, he does not run the board.
Why so skeptical when this is something that doesn't seem to be all that unusual? You don't think a Baptist minister's wife who is a surrogate mother with purple streaks in her hair is unusual?

Regards,
Shodan

[Freudian Slit]

It's uncommon, yeah. But the OP pointed out that they were kind of young and naive, and anyway he's not a baptist minister anymore--the purple streak and all that other jazz got them removed. I don't think it's so weird that at least one naive young guy tried to push the boundaries and got told, "No."

[Lightnin']

Why so skeptical when this is something that doesn't seem to be all that unusual?

Because it hurts Shodan's feewings.

You heard it here, first. Personal experiences can no longer be posted on the SDMB unless they can be personally verified by Shodan. 'Cause, you know, liberals. And Shodan feels that he does run the board.

[FriarTed]

It's uncommon, yeah. But the OP pointed out that they were kind of young and naive, and anyway he's not a baptist minister anymore--the purple streak and all that other jazz got them removed. I don't think it's so weird that at least one naive young guy tried to push the boundaries and got told, "No."

He's still a Baptist minister- just not in that particular church. He didn't get defrocked AFAIK. If he's Southern Baptist that may be pending- probably due to the surrogacy thing. But if he's American Baptist or another moderate-liberal type (yes, there are moderate to liberal Baptist churches), he may well be OK.

[Czarcasm]

Because it hurts Shodan's feewings.

You heard it here, first. Personal experiences can no longer be posted on the SDMB unless they can be personally verified by Shodan. 'Cause, you know, liberals. And Shodan feels that he does run the board.[Moderator Note]Knock off the personal attacks now,[/Moderator Note]

[Really Not All That Bright]

He's still a Baptist minister- just not in that particular church. He didn't get defrocked AFAIK. If he's Southern Baptist that may be pending- probably due to the surrogacy thing. But if he's American Baptist or another moderate-liberal type (yes, there are moderate to liberal Baptist churches), he may well be OK.
He could be defrocked for his wife's actions?

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

He could be defrocked for his wife's actions?
Certainly. The husband is responsible for the wife's behavior, according to the conservative wing of the Baptists!

[NicePete]

Anybody who has been around Baptists long enough to become a Minister shouldn't be the least bit surprised by this sort of thing.

[TV time]

He's still a Baptist minister- just not in that particular church. He didn't get defrocked AFAIK. If he's Southern Baptist that may be pending- probably due to the surrogacy thing. But if he's American Baptist or another moderate-liberal type (yes, there are moderate to liberal Baptist churches), he may well be OK.I am told that this church is an American Baptist. Whether it is liberal or not, I have my doubts.

[Alan Smithee]

I wasn't aware that Baptist churches had any formal defrocking. Each local congregation is teoretically independant and can ordain anyone they see fit. I'm sure he could be denied fellowship by the American (or Southern) Baptist Conference, but I don't think they can "undo" his ordination and I'm not sure what would happen if another church in the same conference hired him. They might lose their representation in the conference, but I don't know if they would lose their fellowship as well.

[Freudian Slit]

He's still a Baptist minister- just not in that particular church. He didn't get defrocked AFAIK. If he's Southern Baptist that may be pending- probably due to the surrogacy thing. But if he's American Baptist or another moderate-liberal type (yes, there are moderate to liberal Baptist churches), he may well be OK.

Ah, okay, sorry for the mistakes.

Anyway, you seem more well versed in this stuff and you said you don't think it's all that out there. I mean, it would be one thing if it were a pastor who'd been there for twenty years and everyone loved him then his wife had an accidental dyeing mishap and they got driven out of town on a rail. But a young experimental guy trying to shake things up and being told, "Not here, thanks," seems about right. As you say, maybe he's in a more liberal church and maybe he'll find a community that's a bit more to his liking.

[Czarcasm]

Wiki on American Baptist Association. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Baptist_Association)

[Caricci]

Depends on the denomination and the location, really. In certain areas it's not uncommon to have multiple Baptist churches in a town of a few thousand people. It's a crapshoot as to whether any given one will need a new minister at any given time, sure, but given the rate at which churches around home split, it doesn't seem terribly unlikely that you could find something.



Honestly, I would guess it's about as likely as getting another job as, say,a college president. It might happen - probably won't.

[Ann Onimous]

It doesn't sound real weird to me, either: I have shared the story here about a former pastor who was dismissed by our church because he remarried. He was still a Southern Baptist minister: in fact, he got another gig at another church. But the church did not want him as their pastor any longer, because they felt he was breaking God's law: so they voted for him to leave.

It doesn't sound strange, but it sure doesn't make it right. I think this whole thing is disgusting.

[TV time]

I will see what I can find out about the surrogacy group.Said and now done. The name of the organization is Growing Generations. The website is growinggenerations.com

There is a thing on youtube also.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcBIkrBPBOU

[BigT]

The proper thing to do in any conversation is to take the person's statements at face value until you have reason otherwise.

The only thing shocking about this is not how the woman acted, but how she's being treated. I've seen a whole lot worse in Baptist churches. The whole POINT of every Baptist church I've been to is that they say they will not judge you for how your appearance.

I don't get what surrogacy has to do with anything. Another nice thing about Baptists I know: if it ain't in the (KJV) Bible, it ain't a sin. In fact, they get all hopping mad about a certain other church (Catholic) that has a bunch of extra rules not straight from the Bible.

I find all of this appalling, and I find it appalling that you guys think it's normal behavior. But at least I'm not going to call the OP a liar like a certain poster in this thread.

[Cyningablod]

Scripturally a pastor is not a shepherd, they are 2 separate gifts from the Holy Spirit. In my experience shepherds are part of the 'invisible' church and is actually the Lord acting through certain people, which IMHO is rarely the pastor. So you would not be of his flock, but if anything the Lord's flock.

Ummm...

Kanicbird, a "pastor" and a "shepherd" might be different roles/"gifts" according to Scripture, but etymologically, they are synonyms. A pastor IS a shepherd. That's the meaning of the word "pastor". I'll give you three guesses why the words "pastor" and "pasture" are morphologically similar. What do you think a poem or work of art in the "pastoral" tradition is? That's right: a work that deals with shepherding, flocks, or some other similarly bucolic motif.

Yet another case of "Scripture" not having anything at all to do with reality.

[Dan Norder]

When the word got out that the minister would preach his Sunday sermon on "Judge not least ye be judged," (the "ye" is probably me King Jamesing the quote, he was probably going to do it in modern) He was told he would not be permitted to preach again from the local pulpit.

Pastor fired for threatening to give sermon about Christ's teachings. News at 11.

[YogSosoth]

Because I'm an atheist and against religion, I don't support the pastor's firing.

[Cyningablod]

Yog,

Would you have supported the pastor's hiring in the first place??

[YogSosoth]

Hard to say. From my point of view, I wish all pastors would be fired and churches closed down. However, if a pastor had to be hired, I'd find the most liberal one possible. This guy is a pretty good candidate, knowing what I know about him now.

[Captain Amazing]

Wiki on American Baptist Association. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Baptist_Association)

Maybe, but usually when people talk about the "American Baptists", they mean the American Baptist Churches, USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Baptist_Churches), aka the American Baptist Convention, aka the Northern Baptist Convention.

But I can definitely understand that guy being fired. Most places like ministers that don't make themselves the center of attention.