Three American Hikers Detained in Iran

[OccamsTaser]

So I'm watching the talking heads on the Sunday cable news shows this morning and a segment comes on featuring the mothers of the American hikers who have been detained in Iran for nine months after having crossed the border into Iran from Iraqi Kurdistan. The mothers claim that their children were simply tourists who innocently and unknowingly crossed an unmarked border between the two countries. When questioned as to the motives of the hikers, why they chose this region of the world for a holiday etc..., the mothers stated that that was "irrelevant".

I'm sorry, but I just can't empathize. I think that the question is very relevant, especially considering that they're trying to garner support in pressuring the Iranian government for the hiker's release.

What on earth were these three people thinking?! They chose to vacation in one of the most dangerous places on the planet, and go for a hike on an ambiguous international border shared by a country who is involved in a proxy war with the US, a country infected with anti-US sentiment and extreme paranoia, and who has a long and well-documented history of seizing and detaining foreigners, even going so far as to cross into Iraqi territory to snatch well-armed coalition soldiers (remember the British sailors?).

The fact that the hikers are university educated and apparently well-heeled, really makes me ask just what exactly were they doing there. They didn't know what the political situation was? They didn't Google it? Really? I have a tough time buying the story that they were simple tourists, and I cannot help but think that, from the Iranian perspective, their story just doesn't wash, and they fit the profile of the "agent provocateur". It's common knowledge that the US is waging a very broad and deep clandestine war against Iran.

If the detainees are nothing more than innocent lost hikers, they are three of the stupidest people on the planet. If there is more to the story, the Iranians are justified in detaining them. Either way, I have a very difficult time finding any empathy for them.

Why did they choose the Iran-Iraq border, during war time, for a vacation? Was the cover-yourself-with-blood-and-swim-with-the-sharks getaway all booked up?

Anyone else think like me?

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Innocent and stupid. My initial thought was they were incredibly naive college kids, but that's not the case (http://freethehikers.org/?page_id=23). One of them was living in Damascus and had been to Darfur and Yemen. They knew they were right on the Iranian border. They knew what the Iranians could get up to. They went ahead anyway.

[pravnik]

I had a friend in college like that; he would travel anywhere, no matter how dangerous. Ended up in combat zones, crap like that. Inadvisable behavior to put it extremely mildly, but it made for great stories. When you're young you think bullets and foreign prisons are things that only happen to other people.

Anyway, I can't vote - there's no option I can fairly agree with. The only options are "had every right to be there" and "stupid and I have no empathy for them." I feel for the situation of anybody that innocently ends up in an Iranian jail, even out of their own massive stupidity. From what I hear they're not doing so hot.

[Der Trihs]

I expect the answer is that they are clueless, although I do feel sympathy for them if they are indeed that foolish. Just not as much as i would if they'd done everything right and ended up in trouble.

What on earth were these three people thinking?! They chose to vacation in one of the most dangerous places on the planet, and go for a hike on an ambiguous international border shared by a country who is involved in a proxy war with the US, a country infected with anti-US sentiment and extreme paranoia, and who has a long and well-documented history of seizing and detaining foreigners, even going so far as to cross into Iraqi territory to snatch well-armed coalition soldiers (remember the British sailors?).
The Iranians appear to have been largely been in the right (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3761058.ece) about those sailors.

Newly released Ministry of Defence documents state that:

— The arrests took place in waters that are not internationally agreed as Iraqi;

— The coalition unilaterally designated a dividing line between Iraqi and Iranian waters in the Gulf without telling Iran where it was; The Iranians can't reasonably be expected to adhere to a border they didn't agree to and weren't even told that we'd drawn it where it was. They aren't psychic, nor are they obligated to automatically agree with us.

[Ravenman]

The OP is talking "Iraq is dangerous" like a European assumes Pleasantville, OH/MN/UT must be dangerous because South Central Los Angeles has so many murders.

All you have to do is spend 10 seconds on Google and you can find ample news articles that show that most parts of Kurdistan have nothing whatsoever to do with the violence in the rest of Iraq. Seriously, do you think people should not go to the United States because Detroit has a lot of crime?

Now, what I recall of the story is that they went to a popular tourist destination, there appear to have been warnings to stay on marked paths, and they got lost and unknowingly crossed the border. Now, they absolutely should have exercised more caution, but indefinite detention by Iran with no communication to their families or their government is NOT an appropriate punishment.

[ralph124c]

I agree with innocent and stupid-why on earth would anybody tempt fate this way? I mean, I could walk through a ghetto at 2 AM, but why do it?
The sad thing is, this little stunt will cost the US taxpayers plenty-and these idiot's parents as well.
Why don't these losers go to Daytona Beach or Cancun, like the other spoiled brats do?

[TreacherousCretin]

Innocent, VERY Stupid, No Empathy, No Symapthy.

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[mhendo]

Now, they absolutely should have exercised more caution, but indefinite detention by Iran with no communication to their families or their government is NOT an appropriate punishment.Sure.

I have no problem with detaining them initially. If a genuine and unbiased investigation determines that they were in Iran intentionally, i also have no problem with whatever punishment Iranian law prescribes for this particular offense. But they should definitely also be allowed contact and communication with the American government, and should be subjected to fair and humane treatment, including a fair trial, if a trial is found to be necessary.

Still, i wonder what the US government's reaction would be if three Iranian citizens "accidentally" strayed over the Mexican or Canadian border and into American territory while hiking. Given the way we've treated some non-citizens over the past ten years—people who, in most cases, never even set foot on American soil—i'm not especially sanguine about the possible outcomes.

[appleciders]

Sure.

I have no problem with detaining them initially. If a genuine and unbiased investigation determines that they were in Iran intentionally, i also have no problem with whatever punishment Iranian law prescribes for this particular offense. But they should definitely also be allowed contact and communication with the American government, and should be subjected to fair and humane treatment, including a fair trial, if a trial is found to be necessary.

Still, i wonder what the US government's reaction would be if three Iranian citizens "accidentally" strayed over the Mexican or Canadian border and into American territory while hiking. Given the way we've treated some non-citizens over the past ten years—people who, in most cases, never even set foot on American soil—i'm not especially sanguine about the possible outcomes.

I hope that we'd catch them, interrogate them, and deport them, that being the normal response to someone being in your country illegally without committing any other crime. Holding them indefinitely is just silly.

I didn't vote because there's no option for "Innocent, stupid, and should be released." I don't think they had a right to be there and I do have sympathy for the way they've been treated after being arrested.

[OccamsTaser]

The OP is talking "Iraq is dangerous" like a European assumes Pleasantville, OH/MN/UT must be dangerous because South Central Los Angeles has so many murders.

All you have to do is spend 10 seconds on Google and you can find ample news articles that show that most parts of Kurdistan have nothing whatsoever to do with the violence in the rest of Iraq. Seriously, do you think people should not go to the United States because Detroit has a lot of crime?

I get what you're saying, but I also don't agree with the comparison. And, ten seconds at the US State Department's website would yield this (note that Kirkuk is the capital of Kurdistan):

"The Department of State continues to warn U.S. citizens of the dangers inherent in travel to Iraq and recommends against all but essential travel in country given the fluid security situation. Despite improvements in the security environment relative to prior years, Iraq remains dangerous and unpredictable. Foreign nationals and their facilities as well as Government of Iraq officials and buildings continue to be targeted. Such attacks can occur at any time. Kidnappings still occur; the most recent kidnapping of an American citizen occurred in July 2008. Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs), Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFPs), and mines often are placed on roads, concealed in plastic bags, boxes, soda cans, dead animals, and in other ways to blend with the road. Grenades and explosives have been thrown into vehicles from overpasses and placed on vehicles at intersections, particularly in crowded areas. Rockets and mortars have been fired at hotels, and vehicle-borne IEDs have been used against targets throughout the country. Occasionally, U.S. Government personnel are prohibited from traveling to certain areas depending on prevailing security conditions. The Embassy requires U.S. government personnel to travel with a personal security detail at all times when traveling outside the International Zone and outside of secure facilities. The Embassy has also directed U.S. government personnel traveling within the International Zone to be accompanied by at least one other person and to carry a radio or cell phone.

In addition to terrorist and criminal attacks, sectarian and insurgent violence occurs often, particularly in the areas of Mosul and Kirkuk. Additionally, unmarked minefields remain in extensive areas along the international border. The Governments of Turkey and Iran continue to carry out military operations against insurgent groups in the mountain regions. These operations include troop movements and both aerial and artillery bombardments."

[Desert Nomad]

Erbil (where the airport is in Iraqi Kurdistan) is quite safe. I almost went there last December but the flights are few and I couldn't fit it in before my holiday in the Sudan which was already arranged with booked flights. I think they just got unlucky and should probably not have been there. But to argue they should not have even been in that part of Iraq at all is absurd.

I've been to Yemen, Iran and North Korea as well and would think a holiday in Kurdistan to be perfectly normal.

[OccamsTaser]

But to argue they should not have even been in that part of Iraq at all is absurd.

I guess I just don't see the "absurdity" in thinking that a trio of lilly white American 20 somethings shouldn't be holiday'ing in a country we are, for all practical matters, at war with, and given the fact that their own state department "continues to warn U.S. citizens of the dangers inherent in travel to Iraq and recommends against all but essential travel" And, gives specific warnings regarding terrorism in Kirkuk, the capital of Kurdistan.

Note that the Department of State requires that their own personnel who travel anywhere in Iraq , with the sole exception of inside Baghdad's Green Zone, be accompanied by an armed security detail.

Obviously, if you are a middle-easterner, your mileage will vary greatly, but remember that these were American civilians who tend to attract a considerably greater amount of attention from the unfriendly types.

[Desert Nomad]

I guess I just don't see the "absurdity" in thinking that a trio of lilly white American 20 somethings shouldn't be holiday'ing in a country we are, for all practical matters, at war with

Obviously, if you are a middle-easterner, your mileage will vary greatly, but remember that these were American civilians who tend to attract a considerably greater amount of attention from the unfriendly types.

I am an American white guy in my 30s. Erbil and much of the surrounding area is safe. Just like Long Beach is safe, yet not far away in South Central, things are much more dicey.

[OccamsTaser]

I don't condone their mistreatment in any way whatsoever. I may not agree with Iranian law, which apparently allows for their extended detainment, without due process, but I respect Iran's sovereignty enact and enforce their own laws. The onus is on the visitor to know the law of the land they're traveling in, and to accept the consequences should they break it. Think Midnight Express.

Personally, I think they're lucky to not have been summarily executed as spies. I haven't read the bios of these three hikers. Did the know each other for a long time prior to this trip? Are they peacenik hippies? Young republicans? I really don't know much about them, and their parents didn't give much insight during the interview this morning.

The US has been conducting extensive clandestine operations against Iran for the past seven years, so it's not entirely unreasonable of the Iranians to suspect that there is more to this than a few lost hikers.

[Kyla]

I didn't vote because I don't like the options. I think they're innocent and stupid, but I do have empathy.

Frankly, I've been in a few dangerous locations myself and I don't like the idea that if something bad had happened to me, people would just say "god, what a moron, what was she doing there in the first place?" Accidentally crossing the border is obviously completely dumb, of course, but...it was an accident. Bah. I have a hankering to go to Iraqi Kurdistan myself and I could see winding up in a similar situation if I was with say, someone who wrongfully claimed to know what they were doing.

[Larry Borgia]

I can't vote because you don't have my option: Innocent, stupid, did not have the right to be there, obviously weren't causing any harm, and should be released quickly.

I'm assuming that the people who voted for the second option must all have some magic shields which prevent them from ever making a blunder with tragic consequences. Otherwise you all don't just seem like heartless assholes, you seem pretty hubristical as well.

[Babale]

I won't answer the poll. They were innocent, very very stupid, but I certainly do sympathize for them.

[Dallas Jones]

They were warned by the police in the area not to go. They were warned by the inn keeper where they were staying not to go.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/08/01/iran.americans.detained/index.html

Now they are saying nobody told them not to go. I don't buy their 'innocent fun-loving kids' act.

[ShibbOleth]

I think that there's at least one missing option. They can be not innocent and not US agents (stupid or not). They may have had another agenda, agitating politically or for religious reasons. In my mind this makes them not innocent but also doesn't make them agents of the US government, per se.

The fact that Iran has decided to wage war with the United States and they knew this puts them firmly in the stupid or took their chances and got unlucky category.

[Peremensoe]

Not U.S. agents, probably stupid, definitely not innocent, and should be released.

[AClockworkMelon]

Innocent, stupid and I have incredible sympathy for them. If you think prison life in the US is hard, I can only imagine how bad it is for three Americans in an Iranian holding center. I wonder if they're being "interrogated."

I don't believe in the power of prayer, but if I did, I'd be praying for these guys.

[Tastes of Chocolate]

Personal responsibility - as in take some.
Sure, you can go for a stroll on the Iranian border. If it's really want you want to do, go for it.
You also have the option of climbing Mt Everest, or diving into the shallow end of your swimming pool. I'm even ok with trying to rescue your from your own bad decisions. I'm also all for sending you the bill for that rescue attempt.

Innocent and stupid.

[kapri]

I won't answer the poll. They were innocent, very very stupid, but I certainly do sympathize for them.

Exactly my feelings. I wonder why this choice was not an option.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I didn't vote because there's no option for "Innocent, stupid, and should be released." I don't think they had a right to be there and I do have sympathy for the way they've been treated after being arrested.
This.

[OccamsTaser]

I think that there's at least one missing option. They can be not innocent and not US agents (stupid or not). They may have had another agenda, agitating politically or for religious reasons..

Excellent point.

[OccamsTaser]

I just did some googling and found this:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/5868/let-em-rot-hiking-americans-detained-in-iran-are-pro-syrian-anti-israel-left-wing-journalist-activists/

[Really Not All That Bright]

Are we supposed to take something from that? "Oh my god! They're liberals! They deserve to rot!"

[MPB in Salt Lake]

I just did some googling and found this:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/5868/let-em-rot-hiking-americans-detained-in-iran-are-pro-syrian-anti-israel-left-wing-journalist-activists/

If she really hates Israel so much, that ought to score her some big points with the Iranian President...........

[TreacherousCretin]

I'm assuming that the people who voted for the second option must all have some magic shields which prevent them from ever making a blunder with tragic consequences. Otherwise you all don't just seem like heartless assholes, you seem pretty hubristical as well.

Not a "magic shield which prevents...tragic blunders", but a down to earth shield that at least helps prevent such reckless stupidity: it's called a "brain." Common sense, in other words.

And: If someone chooses to skate on thin ice, they're stupid, and stating the obvious doesn't make one a heartless hubristical asshole.

.

[even sven]

For all we know, they are sitting there saying "We made a calculated risk, and we got called on it." People do risky stuff all the time.

[Hello Again]

Somehow the wrong radio button got pushed when I voted. I meant to vote #2. As I recall, these women were specifically told not to go where they went by locals, specifically because you cannot tell where the border is, and were also informed specifically that if they put a foot wrong the Iranian govt would summarily incarcerate them. There is no chance they "accidentally" went where they shouldn't. I don't believe they are spies, but I do think they pretty much did everything in their power to make it most appear that they were spies.

<checks mens rea chart> yep, that's at least reckless on every element of the charge.

I also think an Iranian who blundered across the US/CAN border after being told on the CAN side not to risk it with the border patrol would expect treatment equal, if not worse, than what these individuals got.

[OccamsTaser]

Are we supposed to take something from that? "Oh my god! They're liberals! They deserve to rot!"

What I took away from it is that they are "activists" who, more likely than not, have a political agenda, versus simply being tourists on holiday. Whether they are liberal or conservative, or anywhere in between, is entirely irrelevant.

[OccamsTaser]

If she really hates Israel so much, that ought to score her some big points with the Iranian President...........

You would think so, but the reality is probably that her being a US citizen trumps all.

[CaveMike]

What I took away from it is that they are "activists" who, more likely than not, have a political agenda, versus simply being tourists on holiday.I imagine that most Americans travelling in that area would be 'activists'. You are not going to get many causal tourists.


Do you agree with the article that you linked: "Let ‘Em Rot: “Hiking” Americans Detained in Iran Are Pro-Syrian, Anti-Israel, Far-Left “Journalist” Activists"?

[DrDeth]

It is possible that the leader may have been a CIA informant* and/or a journalist. I think the other two are 100% dupes.

* the CIA recruits quite a few travelers to bring back reports, but that's not quite the same thing as FT real Agents.