So I'm Finally Watching Buffy... [Progressive unboxed spoilers]

[Mauvaise]

Alright, I'm joining the camp of those that loved Season 6.

My order is 6, 5, 3, 2, 4, 7, 1

Though 5 & 3 are so close, that it really is a dead-heat.

The problem, in my opinion, with S4 is the over-all season arc was weak, bordering on bad. BUT (and this is an important "but") it also contained some wonderful episodes. It remains my most conflicted season. S7, on the other hand, had a strong over-all season arc, but weak(er) individual episodes.

The Body remains as one of the single most heart-breaking episodes of television ever (which wasn't helped by the fact I was still grieving my own mother's death.) But I think even if it weren't for that, it would still be as brilliant.

Even though I own all 7 seasons, I have been watching random episodes when I catch them on Logo - it's amazing how this show can still rip my heart out. Which is the highest compliment I can pay it. And the worst episodes/seasons are still some of the best television out there. With the exception of "Anne" - I don't know why, but I've never liked that episode. :)

[lissener]

"Anne" - I don't know why, but I've never liked that episode. :)Me too! I think it's because the strongest drama of that episode, what was going on with Buffy, got obscured by the relatively meh-ish sub-plot, the old people thing. The two threads did not weave well together and overall I find watching that episode something of a chore. I think the arc was also a little bit weak; Buffy goes from relatively independent but struggling, to all I'm-going-home, kind of unconvincingly. Very first drafty, shoulda had some more work done on it before it was shot.

[Kyla]

Band Candy has one of my favorite lines ever. When they see all the adults at the Bronze and they wonder what's going on, Willow says " Maybe there's a reunion in town or, or a Billy Joel tour or something." Cracks me up every time.

Principal Snyder's "Summers, you drive like a spaz!" is my favorite.

[lissener]

Band Candy proves that ASH has the acting chops, just as Doppelgangland proves about AH. And the freaky friday one, I forget the ep title, proves that SMG was capable of way more than coasting through as Buffy, which unfortunately is mostly what she did IMO.

[Tanbarkie]

This thread also inspired me to watch Buffy (via Netflix streaming, woo!) and I just finished season 2, and (unboxed spoilers since the OP is past this point)

I can't believe how dumb everyone was in "Becoming: Part 1." They decide to do the spell...the spell that Willow still needed a little bit of time to understand...the spell that takes a while to case...in the middle of the library. The library that's in the school they all know every vampire in existence can just waltz right into at their leisure. Is it any wonder Kendra died and half of them went to the hospital?

You'd think at some point, one of them would go, "hey, you know those vampires? Those ones that just come in here all the time and fuck us over? How about we do this spell at Giles's house so they can't do that."

To be fair, they do pretty much everything in the library, and it rarely seems to come back to bite them in the ass. The school library is like the bridge of the Enterprise - a big, expensive, and permanent set that acts as a "home base" not just to the characters but to the viewers. IIRC, at this point in the show, we've seen Giles's apartment, but we (as the viewers) aren't familiar enough with it to really feel "safe" there.

[olivesmarch4th]

Okay, I just watched ''Enemies'' Season 3, Episode 17,

and HOLY SHIT that was EPIC!


We had no idea, not even a clue, that Angel and Buffy were faking. It's funny, when ''Angelus'' punched Xander, I remember thinking, ''Huh. Why didn't he kill him?'' but then I just assumed ''Angelus'' couldn't deign to waste his time on what was the equivalent of a bug on his shoe. So, I let it go.

Beautifully executed. Season 3 officially surpasses Season 2.

And... it figures Angel got the shaft again. As Buffy walked away, my husband remarked, ''Well, that ought to secure his soul for a while.'' :D

Question though. How did Buffy figure out what Faith was up to? She seemed to get some clue in the apartment of the murdered demon, but it wasn't clear. I assume when she went to talk to Angel he told her that Faith had tried to seduce him. I never trusted that bitch anyway. It was pretty clear she's a psycho killer. I don't know why they gave her so much slack for so long.

But this redeems it.

Oh, another question--why this assumption that avoiding sex is all that needs to be done to protect Angel from desouling? It's not like there aren't other ways he could theoretically be happy. I suppose if you accept that the trapped demon within has to be happy too, it makes more sense. Although, hell, couldn't Angel punching Xander be such a true moment?

[pepperlandgirl]

It is problematic that characters keep insisting sex=true happiness, but they acknowledge that doesn't make any sense on AtS. Angel even explicitly says that he can have sex if he wants to (he gets touchy when people imply he's a eunuch). But Angel is full of so much self-loathing he could probably bang Buffy on every flat surface in Sunnydale and not lose his soul again.

I don't think it's explicitly clear when Buffy figures out what Faith is up to. But I had the same reaction when Angel punches Xander, only I went the other direction "Angel's faking. Angelus would have snapped Xander's neck."

I think Enemies is my favorite episode in S3. It's so wonderfully executed, and all of the performances were great. It's even got a classic line the end, "I introduced him to his wife."

[silenus]

The key is "perfect happiness." This apparently can only happen with his "true love."

[pepperlandgirl]

The key is "perfect happiness." This apparently can only happen with his "true love."


Spoilers for AtS
No, it's not about his "true love." Think about when Angel lost his soul in S4. The entire episode was about his moment of perfect happiness. He reconciled with Wesley, Connor forgave and accepted him, he acted like Indiana Jones to solve the riddle to unlock the secret of killing the beast, then he killed the beast, then the sun came back and then he finally had sex with Cordelia. Clearing banging his one true love is not enough for him to lose his soul after the unfortunate incident with Buffy. In order for Angel to be perfectly happy, he has to have a perfect existence and be recognized as the biggest hero in all the land.

Of course, it makes sense that the final act in his elaborate fantasy must be sex. He's so full of self-loathing and he put both Buffy and Cordy on such pedestals that the fact they let him touch them at all must be a huge deal.

[silenus]

OK, not only about his "true love." That's just what set him off the first time. There are some comments in Season 5 of AtS that address that very issue. :D

[Kyla]

oooh, I forgot all about "Enemies"! Yeah, that is awesome. Rewatching, knowing what is really going on, is quite fun. I didn't catch it the first time either, but the whole thing reads very differently the second time.

[silenus]

That's one of the joys of coming back to a series years later. You can catch things you never noticed before. The series is littered with clues, hints, references and throw-aways that might not be that obvious upon first viewing, but jump out when re-watched.

I also find it interesting that I adored Eliza Dushku as Faith, but absolutely loathed her as Echo. She shines during this arc.

[bramma23]

I'm a big fan of Angel and Buffy. I watched them both on their original run and have them all on DVD. I think Angel is a better show than Buffy, more theatrical, epic, dark, almost Greek or Shakespearean in its tragedy, though I still have both in my top 10 shows of all time.

My ranking of Buffy seasons goes 2, 3, 4, 7, 5, 1, 6.

[bramma23]

Spoilers for AtS
No, it's not about his "true love." Think about when Angel lost his soul in S4. The entire episode was about his moment of perfect happiness. He reconciled with Wesley, Connor forgave and accepted him, he acted like Indiana Jones to solve the riddle to unlock the secret of killing the beast, then he killed the beast, then the sun came back and then he finally had sex with Cordelia. Clearing banging his one true love is not enough for him to lose his soul after the unfortunate incident with Buffy. In order for Angel to be perfectly happy, he has to have a perfect existence and be recognized as the biggest hero in all the land.

Of course, it makes sense that the final act in his elaborate fantasy must be sex. He's so full of self-loathing and he put both Buffy and Cordy on such pedestals that the fact they let him touch them at all must be a huge deal.

Also, spoiler for AtS

Or it could just be that Angel's relationship with Cordelia was not the true love that he had with Buffy, therefore the sex wouldn't have been as meaningful.

Also, it reflects a couple of realities of writing the show. It would be redundant if every time Angel had sex with someone, even someone that he cares for, he loses his soul. It's a very limiting plot device if it's consistently used.

And it reflects some of the more "mature" or "adult" themes of Angel. Buffy, particularly, the early years is more about a teenage perspective and particularly a female teenage perspective. Buffy's first sexual encounter with her first true boyfriend should of course be treated as a big deal for the show and for her personally, and subsequently for Angel as well. It *had* to turn Angel evil otherwise it sort of violates a fundamental pillar of the show's perspective. However, with AtS, Angel's a different character and the show has a different perspective. After having been through hell literally, having a son, losing a son, being betrayed by a close friend, etc. etc. it would be underwhelming if just consummation of a relationship was enough to override all of that. It seems almost naive by comparison.

[silenus]

Also, spoiler for AtS

Or it could just be that Angel's relationship with Cordelia was not the true love that he had with Buffy, therefore the sex wouldn't have been as meaningful.

Also, it reflects a couple of realities of writing the show. It would be redundant if every time Angel had sex with someone, even someone that he cares for, he loses his soul. It's a very limiting plot device if it's consistently used.

And it reflects some of the more "mature" or "adult" themes of Angel. Buffy, particularly, the early years is more about a teenage perspective and particularly a female teenage perspective. Buffy's first sexual encounter with her first true boyfriend should of course be treated as a big deal for the show and for her personally, and subsequently for Angel as well. It *had* to turn Angel evil otherwise it sort of violates a fundamental pillar of the show's perspective. However, with AtS, Angel's a different character and the show has a different perspective. After having been through hell literally, having a son, losing a son, being betrayed by a close friend, etc. etc. it would be underwhelming if just consummation of a relationship was enough to override all of that. It seems almost naive by comparison.

Wesley: If what? If you achieve a moment of perfect happiness?
Angel: I turn back into Angelus, and we don't want that. . . What?
Wesley: Ninety nine point nine nine nine ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness.

[Justin_Bailey]

Wesley: If what? If you achieve a moment of perfect happiness?
Angel: I turn back into Angelus, and we don't want that. . . What?
Wesley: Ninety nine point nine nine nine ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness.

Another thing to realize is that Buffy was Angel's first real relationship in over a hundred years. Yes, it was a big deal to her because she was a high school girl and he was her first boyfriend. But it was also a HUGE deal to him because it was the first human interaction he'd had in decades and his first sex since being resouled.

In some ways, it was probably more meaningful to Angel than it was to Buffy.

Spoilers for Angel The Series:

Building on this, Angel's reintroduction into the human world was a heavily used theme throughout the entire series. Of course his future sexual experiences (including Darla, Eve and the Werewolf Girl) wouldn't be as big a deal as his first time.

[Mauvaise]

Another thing to realize is that Buffy was Angel's first real relationship in over a hundred years. Yes, it was a big deal to her because she was a high school girl and he was her first boyfriend. But it was also a HUGE deal to him because it was the first human interaction he'd had in decades and his first sex since being resouled.

In some ways, it was probably more meaningful to Angel than it was to Buffy.



I'd go as far as to argue that not only was it his first real relationship in over a hundred years, but his first real relationship EVER.

Any of the Angel as human flashbacks as shown him to be a drunken idiot who would have indiscriminate sex with any one, with no significant relationships (positive) ever.

[pepperlandgirl]

Spoilers for AtS
Strangely enough, though, he really thought having sex with Darla would be enough to give him his perfect happy. She was pretty offended when that didn't happen. I don't know why he thought it would, though. He never loved her and he pretty much hated her that night.

[Mauvaise]

Spoilers for AtS
Strangely enough, though, he really thought having sex with Darla would be enough to give him his perfect happy. She was pretty offended when that didn't happen. I don't know why he thought it would, though. He never loved her and he pretty much hated her that night.


Maybe he thought that orgasm = perfect happiness, and that's all it took. I guess he learned right quick there's more to happiness than CENSORED

[olivesmarch4th]

Finished with ''Earshot.'' I figured out right away why they pulled the show and aired it late. I remember the Columbine shooting like it was yesterday -- that event had a far greater effect on me than 9-11 did. I was a freshman in high school and remember watching the footage on CNN with my heart in my throat.

I think they made the right choice not to air. A week is too soon.

''Earshot'' is a good example of what I love about this show -- it can pull off a memorable dramatic scene, like the one between Buffy and Jonathan, and then switch immediately to something ridiculous like Xander catching the lunchlady pouring rat poisoning into the food. The way it switches seamlessly from realistic drama to almost cartoonish horror is just brilliant.

And oh my god, Oz and Cordelia's thoughts! We died.

Oh, and I can't remember for sure, but I think this is the episode where the following exchange takes place:

Buffy: You're funny.
Angel (with same deadpan, brooding expression as always): I'm a funny guy.

ROFL.

The adventure continues tonight...

[Ellis Dee]

Did you say you were going to start watching Angel alongside Buffy after you get through season 3?

[olivesmarch4th]

Did you say you were going to start watching Angel alongside Buffy after you get through season 3?
Yeah absolutely. He's my favorite character.

[silenus]

Giles: Feel up to some training?
Buffy: Sure, we could work-out after school, you know, if you’re not too busy having sex with my mother!
[Giles walks into a tree.]

[Ellis Dee]

I'd recommend you watch them in airdate order. First a little history on the two shows.

Buffy aired Tuesdays at 8pm. When Angel spun off, it followed right after at 9pm on the same night. For two seasons they were joined at the hip, always on the same night and almost always taking the same weeks off.

Then Buffy got too expensive and the WB cancelled it. UPN revived it, bringing us the hotly debated seasons 6 and 7. UPN kept Buffy on Tuesdays, but the WB promptly moved Angel to Mondays. Their breaks were no longer synched up, either; there were stretches where one show would air several new episodes while the other was on break.

Many times during the run of Angel the action on the two shows intersected. Sometimes with full-blown crossovers, sometimes with minor (but fun to spot) touches. But if you don't view the shows in chronological airdate order, you'll miss out on some of the crossover goodness.

In short, for the first two contemporaneous seasons, to go in order watch one episode of Buffy then one of Angel. For the next two seasons, in general it's one Angel then one Buffy, with exceptions noted for unsynched breaks.

I printed out this complete list when I decided to rewatch Buffy so I could synch up the crossovers with the Angel repeats on TNT. (Some happened even after Buffy switched networks.) If you copy and paste the list to a text file, then print that text file from Word using Landscape it should print out pretty well. You may want to position page breaks along season breaks, but otherwise it should work fine.

1-01 Mar 10, 1997 Welcome to the Hellmouth (1) 5-01 Oct 1, 2003 Conviction (1)
1-02 Mar 10, 1997 The Harvest (2) 5-02 Oct 8, 2003 Just Rewards (2)
1-03 Mar 17, 1997 The Witch 5-03 Oct 15, 2003 Unleashed
1-04 Mar 25, 1997 Teacher's Pet 5-04 Oct 22, 2003 Hell Bound
1-05 Mar 31, 1997 Never Kill a Boy... 5-05 Oct 29, 2003 Life of the Party
1-06 Apr 7, 1997 The Pack 5-06 Nov 5, 2003 The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco
1-07 Apr 14, 1997 Angel 5-07 Nov 12, 2003 Lineage
1-08 Apr 28, 1997 I, Robot... You, Jane 5-08 Nov 19, 2003 Destiny
1-09 May 5, 1997 The Puppet Show 5-09 Jan 14, 2004 Harm's Way
1-10 May 12, 1997 Nightmares 5-10 Jan 21, 2004 Soul Purpose
1-11 May 19, 1997 Out of Mind, Out of Sight 5-11 Jan 28, 2004 Damage
1-12 Jun 2, 1997 Prophecy Girl 5-12 Feb 4, 2004 You're Welcome
5-13 Feb 11, 2004 Why We Fight
2-01 Sep 15, 1997 When She Was Bad 5-14 Feb 18, 2004 Smile Time
2-02 Sep 22, 1997 Some Assembly Required 5-15 Feb 25, 2004 A Hole in the World
2-03 Sep 29, 1997 School Hard 5-16 Mar 3, 2004 Shells
2-04 Oct 6, 1997 Inca Mummy Girl 5-17 Apr 14, 2004 Underneath
2-05 Oct 13, 1997 Reptile Boy 5-18 Apr 21, 2004 Origin
2-06 Oct 27, 1997 Halloween 5-19 Apr 28, 2004 Time Bomb
2-07 Nov 3, 1997 Lie to Me 5-20 May 5, 2004 The Girl in Question
2-08 Nov 10, 1997 The Dark Age 5-21 May 12, 2004 Power Play
2-09 Nov 17, 1997 What's My Line? (1) 5-22 May 19, 2004 Not Fade Away
2-10 Nov 24, 1997 What's My Line? (2)
2-11 Dec 8, 1997 Ted
2-12 Jan 12, 1998 Bad Eggs
2-13 Jan 19, 1998 Surprise (1)
2-14 Jan 20, 1998 Innocence (2)
2-15 Jan 27, 1998 Phases
2-16 Feb 10, 1998 Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered
2-17 Feb 24, 1998 Passion
2-18 Mar 3, 1998 Killed by Death
2-19 Apr 28, 1998 I Only Have Eyes For You
2-20 May 5, 1998 Go Fish
2-21 May 12, 1998 Becoming (1)
2-22 May 19, 1998 Becoming (2)

3-01 Sep 29, 1998 Anne
3-02 Oct 6, 1998 Dead Man's Party
3-03 Oct 13, 1998 Faith, Hope & Trick
3-04 Oct 20, 1998 Beauty and the Beasts
3-05 Nov 3, 1998 Homecoming
3-06 Nov 10, 1998 Band Candy
3-07 Nov 17, 1998 Revelations
3-08 Nov 24, 1998 Lover's Walk
3-09 Dec 8, 1998 The Wish
3-10 Dec 15, 1998 Amends
3-11 Jan 12, 1999 Gingerbread
3-12 Jan 19, 1999 Helpless
3-13 Jan 26, 1999 The Zeppo
3-14 Feb 9, 1999 Bad Girls
3-15 Feb 16, 1999 Consequences
3-16 Feb 23, 1999 Doppelgangland
3-17 Mar 16, 1999 Enemies
3-18 Sep 21, 1999 Earshot
3-19 May 4, 1999 Choices
3-20 May 11, 1999 The Prom
3-21 May 18, 1999 Graduation Day (1)
3-22 Jul 13, 1999 Graduation Day (2)

4-01 Oct 5, 1999 The Freshman 1-01 Oct 5, 1999 City Of
4-02 Oct 12, 1999 Living Conditions 1-02 Oct 12, 1999 Lonely Hearts
4-03 Oct 19, 1999 The Harsh Light of Day 1-03 Oct 19, 1999 In the Dark
4-04 Oct 26, 1999 Fear, Itself 1-04 Oct 26, 1999 I Fall to Pieces
4-05 Nov 2, 1999 Beer Bad 1-05 Nov 2, 1999 Rm w/a Vu
4-06 Nov 9, 1999 Wild At Heart 1-06 Nov 9, 1999 Sense & Sensitivity
4-07 Nov 16, 1999 The Initiative 1-07 Nov 16, 1999 Bachelor Party
4-08 Nov 23, 1999 Pangs 1-08 Nov 23, 1999 I Will Remember You
4-09 Nov 30, 1999 Something Blue 1-09 Nov 30, 1999 Hero
4-10 Dec 14, 1999 Hush 1-10 Dec 14, 1999 Parting Gifts
4-11 Jan 18, 2000 Doomed 1-11 Jan 18, 2000 Somnambulist
4-12 Jan 25, 2000 A New Man 1-12 Jan 25, 2000 Expecting
4-13 Feb 8, 2000 The I In Team 1-13 Feb 8, 2000 She
4-14 Feb 15, 2000 Goodbye Iowa 1-14 Feb 15, 2000 I've Got You Under My Skin
4-15 Feb 22, 2000 This Year's Girl (1) 1-15 Feb 22, 2000 The Prodigal
4-16 Feb 29, 2000 Who Are You? (2) 1-16 Feb 29, 2000 The Ring
4-17 Apr 4, 2000 Superstar 1-17 Apr 4, 2000 Eternity
4-18 Apr 25, 2000 Where the Wild Things Are 1-18 Apr 25, 2000 Five by Five
4-19 May 2, 2000 New Moon Rising 1-19 May 2, 2000 Sanctuary
4-20 May 9, 2000 The Yoko Factor (1) 1-20 May 9, 2000 War Zone
4-21 May 16, 2000 Primeval (2) 1-21 May 16, 2000 Blind Date
4-22 May 23, 2000 Restless 1-22 May 23, 2000 To Shanshu in L.A.

5-01 Sep 26, 2000 Buffy vs. Dracula 2-01 Sep 26, 2000 Judgment
5-02 Oct 3, 2000 Real Me 2-02 Oct 3, 2000 Are You Now or Have You Ever Been
5-03 Oct 10, 2000 The Replacement 2-03 Oct 10, 2000 First Impressions
5-04 Oct 17, 2000 Out of My Mind 2-04 Oct 17, 2000 Untouched
5-05 Oct 24, 2000 No Place Like Home 2-05 Oct 24, 2000 Dear Boy
5-06 Nov 7, 2000 Family 2-06 Nov 7, 2000 Guise Will Be Guise
5-07 Nov 14, 2000 Fool for Love 2-07 Nov 14, 2000 Darla
5-08 Nov 21, 2000 Shadow 2-08 Nov 21, 2000 The Shroud of Rahmon
5-09 Nov 28, 2000 Listening to Fear 2-09 Nov 28, 2000 The Trial
5-10 Dec 19, 2000 Into the Woods 2-10 Dec 19, 2000 Reunion
5-11 Jan 9, 2001 Triangle 2-11 Jan 16, 2001 Redefinition
5-12 Jan 23, 2001 Checkpoint 2-12 Jan 23, 2001 Blood Money
5-13 Feb 6, 2001 Blood Ties 2-13 Feb 6, 2001 Happy Anniversary
5-14 Feb 13, 2001 Crush 2-14 Feb 13, 2001 The Thin Dead Line
5-15 Feb 20, 2001 I Was Made to Love You 2-15 Feb 20, 2001 Reprise
5-16 Feb 27, 2001 The Body 2-16 Feb 27, 2001 Epiphany
5-17 Apr 17, 2001 Forever 2-17 Apr 17, 2001 Disharmony
5-18 Apr 24, 2001 Intervention 2-18 Apr 24, 2001 Dead End
5-19 May 1, 2001 Tough Love 2-19 May 1, 2001 Belonging
5-20 May 8, 2001 Spiral 2-20 May 8, 2001 Over the Rainbow
5-21 May 15, 2001 The Weight of the World 2-21 May 15, 2001 Through the Looking Glass
5-22 May 22, 2001 The Gift 2-22 May 22, 2001 There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb

6-01 Oct 2, 2001 Bargaining (1) 3-01 Sep 24, 2001 Heartthrob
6-02 Oct 2, 2001 Bargaining (2) 3-02 Oct 1, 2001 That Vision Thing
6-03 Oct 9, 2001 After Life 3-03 Oct 8, 2001 That Old Gang of Mine
6-04 Oct 16, 2001 Flooded 3-04 Oct 15, 2001 Carpe Noctem
6-05 Oct 23, 2001 Life Serial 3-05 Oct 22, 2001 Fredless
6-06 Oct 30, 2001 All The Way 3-06 Oct 29, 2001 Billy
6-07 Nov 6, 2001 Once More, With Feeling 3-07 Nov 5, 2001 Offspring
6-08 Nov 13, 2001 Tabula Rasa 3-08 Nov 12, 2001 Quickening
6-09 Nov 20, 2001 Smashed 3-09 Nov 19, 2001 Lullaby
6-10 Nov 27, 2001 Wrecked 3-10 Dec 10, 2001 Dad
6-11 Jan 8, 2002 Gone 3-11 Jan 14, 2002 Birthday
6-12 Jan 29, 2002 Doublemeat Palace 3-12 Jan 21, 2002 Provider
6-13 Feb 5, 2002 Dead Things 3-13 Feb 4, 2002 Waiting in the Wings
6-14 Feb 12, 2002 Older and Far Away 3-14 Feb 18, 2002 Couplet
6-15 Feb 26, 2002 As You Were 3-15 Feb 25, 2002 Loyalty
6-16 Mar 5, 2002 Hell's Bells 3-16 Mar 4, 2002 Sleep Tight
6-17 Mar 12, 2002 Normal Again 3-17 Apr 15, 2002 Forgiving
6-18 Apr 30, 2002 Entropy 3-18 Apr 22, 2002 Double or Nothing
6-19 May 7, 2002 Seeing Red 3-19 Apr 29, 2002 The Price
6-20 May 14, 2002 Villains 3-20 May 6, 2002 A New World
6-21 May 21, 2002 Two to Go (1) 3-21 May 13, 2002 Benediction
6-22 May 21, 2002 Grave (2) 3-22 May 20, 2002 Tomorrow

7-01 Sep 24, 2002 Lessons 4-01 Oct 6, 2002 Deep Down
7-02 Oct 1, 2002 Beneath You 4-02 Oct 13, 2002 Ground State
7-03 Oct 8, 2002 Same Time, Same Place 4-03 Oct 20, 2002 The House Always Wins
7-04 Oct 15, 2002 Help 4-04 Oct 27, 2002 Slouching Toward Bethlehem
7-05 Oct 22, 2002 Selfless 4-05 Nov 3, 2002 Supersymmetry
7-06 Nov 5, 2002 Him 4-06 Nov 10, 2002 Spin the Bottle
7-07 Nov 12, 2002 Conversations with Dead People 4-07 Nov 17, 2002 Apocalypse, Nowish
7-08 Nov 19, 2002 Sleeper 4-08 Jan 15, 2003 Habeas Corpses
7-09 Nov 26, 2002 Never Leave Me 4-09 Jan 22, 2003 Long Day's Journey
7-10 Dec 17, 2002 Bring On The Night 4-10 Jan 29, 2003 Awakening
7-11 Jan 7, 2003 Showtime 4-11 Feb 5, 2003 Soulless
7-12 Jan 21, 2003 Potential 4-12 Feb 12, 2003 Calvary
7-13 Feb 4, 2003 The Killer In Me 4-13 Mar 5, 2003 Salvage
7-14 Feb 11, 2003 First Date 4-14 Mar 12, 2003 Release
7-15 Feb 18, 2003 Get It Done 4-15 Mar 19, 2003 Orpheus
7-16 Feb 25, 2003 Storyteller 4-16 Mar 26, 2003 Players
7-17 Mar 25, 2003 Lies My Parents Told Me 4-17 Apr 2, 2003 Inside Out
7-18 Apr 15, 2003 Dirty Girls 4-18 Apr 9, 2003 Shiny Happy People
7-19 Apr 29, 2003 Empty Places 4-19 Apr 16, 2003 The Magic Bullet
7-20 May 6, 2003 Touched 4-20 Apr 23, 2003 Sacrifice
7-21 May 13, 2003 End of Days 4-21 Apr 30, 2003 Peace Out
7-22 May 20, 2003 Chosen 4-22 May 7, 2003 Home
As a quick example, there is a crossover nod to fans in Angel 4-12 and Buffy 7-14. These aired on Feb 11th and Feb 12th respectively, not two weeks apart like you might think based on episode number.

[lissener]

I printed out this complete list when I decided to rewatch Buffy so I could synch up the crossovers with the Angel repeats on TNT. . . .
Thanks Ellis! I took your data and put it in a Google Doc spreadsheet (http://bit.ly/buffy_angel).

[wonderlust]

Every time I see one of these threads I think it's time to try to get past season one again. But this time, the big decision for me is (and I actually need opinions here) do I watch Buffy or do I read The Stand?. Because either one will take months of my life.

[lissener]

Well, you'll find lots of fans of the The Stand here. Me, I'd rather be forced to swallow a roadkill porcupine whole than read The Stand again. I read it highschool, loved it. Read it again in my thirties, and was appalled at how epically, monumentally, horrifying terrible it was. It now heads my list of the worst books I have ever read.

It really depends on your taste in reading material. Mine changed a lot in the 20 years between my readings of that book.

And hopefully you've noticed that even most hardcore Buffians get a little embarrassed about season one, so you'll find plenty of people to encourage you to get past that. Try watching season 3, and see if it intrigues you enough to make you go back and sit through the backstory.

[wonderlust]

Try watching season 3, and see if it intrigues you enough to make you go back and sit through the backstory.
Good plan! I'm liking The Stand from the get-go, so I don't have to wait for the enjoyment to begin. But checking out S3 is a great idea, much better than wading through 2 seasons and not knowing if it'll pay off. But first, I'm finishing up Twin Peaks, that subject for another thread.

[Mauvaise]

wonderlust I'm voting for Buffy, but only because I love the show and just, despite trying, do not like Stephen King.

Correction: I like his ideas/plots, but I just can't handle the way he writes. I've read 5 or 6 of his books and finally said no more. The thought of reading a book written by King of The Stand's thickness gives me the chills (and not in the good way).

If you're really not sure about picking up Buffy, watch the following from Season 1:

Angel
Prophecy Girl

From Season 2:

When She Was Bad
What's My Line, Parts 1 & 2
Surprise
Innocence
Passion
Becoming Parts 1 & 2

Then start watching all Episodes from Season 3 (though, I still make a case that you skip S3 Ep 1: Anne). If you're loving it by the mid-end of season 3, you can fill in the blanks of seasons 1 & 2. If you're not completely hooked by the end of season 3, this may not be your cup of tea.

[Ellis Dee]

Thanks Ellis! I took your data and put it in a Google Doc spreadsheet (http://bit.ly/buffy_angel).Yeah, I originally compiled it in an Excel spreadsheet so that it prints neatly on one two-sided piece of paper. Sadly we can't post attachments here, so I ran a quickie macro to format at it as text for posting above.

Email is in profile for anyone who wants the original spreadsheet.

[Ellis Dee]

But checking out S3 is a great idea, much better than wading through 2 seasons and not knowing if it'll pay off.I agree. Just start with season 3; if it doesn't grab you, you gave it a reasonable shot. If you like it, you'll enjoy checking the season 2 backstory later. (Season 1 is not good.)

[kelly5078]

I agree. Just start with season 3; if it doesn't grab you, you gave it a reasonable shot. If you like it, you'll enjoy checking the season 2 backstory later. (Season 1 is not good.)It was good enough to hook me back when it was new. But yes, it suffers by comparison to what came after, esp starting with 3.

I'm watching season 5 now, which is my favorite. One thing that's really striking to me this time around is what a good actress SMG is. My memory was just that she was good enough to play Buffy, but now I see that she's really got the chops.

[Lakai]

Thanks Ellis! I took your data and put it in a Google Doc spreadsheet (http://bit.ly/buffy_angel).

Yeah, I originally compiled it in an Excel spreadsheet so that it prints neatly on one two-sided piece of paper. Sadly we can't post attachments here, so I ran a quickie macro to format at it as text for posting above.

Email is in profile for anyone who wants the original spreadsheet.

Wow, this thread was geeky enough without the spreadsheets. :D



I printed them out and put them in a folder for later use.

[Maserschmidt]

Oh my. I quit Buffy late in Season 4 because I so hated the plotline. But now this thread is making me thing I should go back and finish out the series.

[BigT]

I think lissener should take the original spreadsheet and put it up on Google Docs (both in converted and non converted format). Of course, anyone else could do that, too, including Ellis, and even me, but I figure lissener might want first crack.

[lissener]

I think lissener should take the original spreadsheet and put it up on Google Docs (both in converted and non converted format). Of course, anyone else could do that, too, including Ellis, and even me, but I figure lissener might want first crack.

I did. Doesn't the link work for you?

[BigT]

I did. Doesn't the link work for you?

I'm sorry. I thought that was the one you made yourself from the text. And how do you get the original Excel file? I've never had luck printing directly from Google Docs--something always gets formatted wrong.

[olivesmarch4th]

Ellis dee and lissener -- thanks so much for the spreadsheets. I didn't realize this would be quite so complicated. Oh well, at least the first two seasons are easy.

Season 3 is finished. I didn't find the last two episodes terribly exciting, but overall Season 3 is fantastic.

Rank so far would be 3, 2, 1. The way it should be. :)

[Bridget Burke]

As I've explained before, I jumped into Buffy halfway through in re-runs, then saw the whole thing on DVD. (And all of Angel, too.) So I can appreciate even the non-sterling episodes a bit & don't really hate any of the seasons--just like some of them better. Anybody wanting to try the show can either start with Season 1/Show 1--or just watch an episode that sounds interesting.

Concerning Season 3: Many of us see The Mayor as The Best Villain Ever.

Concerning Season 4: Since I didn't watch Buffy 4/Angel 1 in the original run, I really need to use that spreadsheet to recreate the experience.

[BigT]

Nevermind, lissener. I just emailed Ellis for the spreadsheet, and was told I could host it. As predicted, the Google Docs version takes 3 instead of 2 pages. So I decided to offer the file in several forms.


The original Excel file (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B6P4NKMdrpnnMzFmYzJjMmQtZDNlZC00ZjJmLTgyZTUtOTY1MjE0NjY0NTEx&hl=en) (also works with the free Gnumeric Spreadsheet (http://projects.gnome.org/gnumeric/downloads.shtml))
A PDF (http://www.box.net/shared/8nuf93022k) for people without a Spreadsheet program. (Box.net's PDF viewer is more reliable than Google's, which breaks every other time I use it.)
A Wordpad/TextEdit file (http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6P4NKMdrpnnMzU0YzQ0ZjAtZWVmYy00ZmNjLWJlYmMtNWUwYmIxNzFkNzdj&hl=enP) for slower computers that can't handle the PDF or want to edit. Not guaranteed to print right, but I tried.
The Google Spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqP4NKMdrpnndHdNZ3hZY2x1QkpvNmFmdkZMeU9nblE&hl=en), to see if you can make it work right. Editing is disabled unless Ellis tells me it's okay, but you can "Save a Copy" and edit that.

[wonderlust]

So, to watch Buffy as it should be seen, is Angel a concurrent show, or after Buffy is done? Are there any other spinoffs?

[Kyla]

So, to watch Buffy as it should be seen, is Angel a concurrent show, or after Buffy is done? Are there any other spinoffs?

Angel is concurrent to Buffy. It was spun off of after the third season of Buffy, so that Buffy S4 and Angel S1 run concurrently. I don't think it would be difficult to follow one without the other, but there are a couple of crossovers and it's nice to see the two shows interact, and there are a few times when a storyline that starts in one show is completed on the other. (Although they obviously take place in the same universe, they have somewhat different themes, motifs, and goals. Angel isn't just an extension of the same story as Buffy - it goes off it its own direction and has its own stuff going on.)

There aren't any other spinoffs. There is a comic book, Season 8, that picks up where Buffy leaves off. The canon-ness of Season 8 is a bit controversial, because it's...well, it's a comic book. Stuff happens that probably wouldn't have happened on the show because TV shows and comic books are different mediums.

[lissener]

Nevermind, lissener. I just emailed Ellis for the spreadsheet, and was told I could host it. As predicted, the Google Docs version takes 3 instead of 2 pages's
That's because I put season 5 of Angel after season 4, instead of before season 1 as Ellis had done to save printer real estate. I made it a googledoc so you could view it online, and not worry about printing issues. There's no reason to think the googledoc is going anywhere, so feel free to use it as an online guide (http://bit.ly/buffy_angel).

[BigT]

That's because I put season 5 of Angel after season 4, instead of before season 1 as Ellis had done to save printer real estate. I made it a googledoc so you could view it online, and not worry about printing issues. There's no reason to think the googledoc is going anywhere, so feel free to use it as an online guide (http://bit.ly/buffy_angel).

Even hers became three pages. Apparently Google spreadsheets have a minimum cell height, and I can't change it. And it seems to map font sizes differently, as it was four pages until I reduced the font.

And, yes, once I got started, my OCD took over, and I got carried away. I doubt many people will use it, but now you've got the version that fits on two pieces of paper. If someone is using DVDs instead of watching online, it might come in handy. But I'll probably only leave the PDF after the thread dies.

[pepperlandgirl]

There aren't any other spinoffs. There is a comic book, Season 8, that picks up where Buffy leaves off. The canon-ness of Season 8 is a bit controversial, because it's...well, it's a comic book. Stuff happens that probably wouldn't have happened on the show because TV shows and comic books are different mediums.

It might be controversial among fans, but Joss has made it pretty clear he considers it canon (the Angel comics, on the other hand, are not canon).

[Kyla]

It might be controversial among fans, but Joss has made it pretty clear he considers it canon (the Angel comics, on the other hand, are not canon).

TBH, I haven't read any of the comics. Am I missing out on something great?

[pepperlandgirl]

TBH, I haven't read any of the comics. Am I missing out on something great?

No. I firmly believe nobody should read the comics, that the comics should have never happened, and honestly, if Joss doesn't pull something amazing out of his ass for the "season finale" I may never be able to enjoy the Buffyverse (on any level, even rewatching the episodes) because I'm so deeply disgusted (and honestly betrayed) by some of the choices he's made. (Choices that essentially destroy all of his characters and nullify everything the universe is supposed to stand for).

But I hear other people like them. Nobody I know, but I guess somebody must.

[wonderlust]

wonderlust I'm voting for Buffy, but only because I love the show and just, despite trying, do not like Stephen King.

Correction: I like his ideas/plots, but I just can't handle the way he writes. I've read 5 or 6 of his books and finally said no more. The thought of reading a book written by King of The Stand's thickness gives me the chills (and not in the good way).

If you're really not sure about picking up Buffy, watch the following from Season 1:

Angel
Prophecy Girl

From Season 2:

When She Was Bad
What's My Line, Parts 1 & 2
Surprise
Innocence
Passion
Becoming Parts 1 & 2

Then start watching all Episodes from Season 3 (though, I still make a case that you skip S3 Ep 1: Anne). If you're loving it by the mid-end of season 3, you can fill in the blanks of seasons 1 & 2. If you're not completely hooked by the end of season 3, this may not be your cup of tea.
I'll try this. I think I can even stream it from Netflix on my Wii.

[Mahaloth]

TBH, I haven't read any of the comics. Am I missing out on something great?

No. I'd skip them. I can't even begin to express how bad a recent poor decision in them was.

[lissener]

Beer Bad is one of my favorite silly Buffisodes. Especially that parting shot. Priceless.

[Ephemera]

It might be controversial among fans, but Joss has made it pretty clear he considers it canon (the Angel comics, on the other hand, are not canon).

They're not? I was wondering how they reconciled their vastly different characterizations. I guess that explains it, then, but it's unfortunate. From what I know of both, After the Fall sounds like a more interesting story and more faithful continuation of the series it followed. I liked what they did with Wesley, anyway. Poor guy can't ever win at anything.

[silenus]

I'm holding that the comics are canon up through Buffy

sleeping with another Slayer and the return of Dracula.

after that it's garbage.

[Ephemera]

I take a literalist view with canon. I might not like what happened (and I don't like what I was obliquely referencing in my previous post), but if the creator or owners to the rights say it's so, and there is something produced to that effect, then so it is.

[bouv]

I haven't read the most recent ones (I think I'm three behind in Buffy Season 8, and more than that in After the Fall (which isn't called After the Fall anymore?), but Season 8 started off strong then...fizzled.

After the Fall was much better. It kept with the theme of Angel more so than Season 8 kept with the theme of Buffy. The artwork was terrible for most of it's run, though.

[Ephemera]

Gotten any further, olives?

[Idle Thoughts]

Huh, and here I always loved 4 as the best season.

I have to agree with silenus, though...even if your interest in it starts waning, you've got to see the Season six episode "Once More With Feeling" before you stop.

Although here's hoping you don't quit at all. I enjoyed the series from beginning to end (along with Angel), recently finishing them all myself.

[silenus]

And the following episode "Tabula Rasa." I think that one is where they finally address the last of the clues laid out in Season 4's finale "Restless." Until the end of Season 7, that is.

[olivesmarch4th]

Gotten any further, olives?

Yes. I'm sorry I didn't update sooner -- I was on vacation for two weeks.

It is taking a bit longer now as we are watching both Buffy and Angel.

Buffy Season 4 is not blowing me away. So far there have only been a couple of good episodes - Fear Itself was fantastic. Prior to that, the episode with Spike (The Harsh Light of Day) was fantastic. The rest are pretty ''meh.''

The last episode we watched, Wild at Heart, I thought was well-done but Sr. Olives thought it was too melodramatic.

I was like :dubious: ''As opposed to all the other episodes of Buffy?''

I felt Oz and Willow sold the whole story with solid acting, so I didn't mind so much. Very sad.

I personally love Angel, it has been working for me since the beginning. My husband says Angel is like Batman, so he refers to him as BatAngel. I think it's more like watching a crime drama. Either way I appreciate the older/more mature feel of the show, and how they've fleshed out Cordelia's character. I feel all the episodes so far have been pretty entertaining. We just finished ''Rm w/a vu'' which was great... I hope the poltergeist sticks around.

Right now Angel is kind of helping me deal with Season 4 of Buffy sucking.

We soldier on!

[Alessan]

RE: Buffy

You're at the exact nadir of the season - next episode lays the groundwork for the season's main arc, and in 4 more you'll get one of the best eps ever in a Whedon show.

[Lakai]

RE: Buffy

You're at the exact nadir of the season - next episode lays the groundwork for the season's main arc, and in 4 more you'll get one of the best eps ever in a Whedon show.

Hush! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hush_%28Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer%29)

I get exciting just thinking about it. It's amazing how well the episode worked with that premise.

[Ellis Dee]

Logo is now a handful of episodes into season 7. It is much stronger than I remember it. I was particularly impressed with Same Time, Same Place.

olive, you're in the transition stage; season 4 marks a huge turnover in the cast, with Angel, Cordelia, Faith, Wesley, and someone else gone while several new characters fill the roles they served. I rather prefer the second set of characters to the first, which is why I think I like season 6 more than many other fans.I like Tara better than Oz
I'll take Spike over Angel any day
Love Anya to death, while I could take or leave CordeliaNote that Angel also experiences significant cast changes after the first season or two, but for the most part it's just adding more and more characters, most of which are awesome.Though I was never a fan of Connor.

[olivesmarch4th]

(Season 4 Buffy Spoilers and Season 1 Angel Spoilers to follow.)

Just finished Hush! At first was terribly confused because I got it mixed up with the discussion of Once More, With Feeling and thought it was going to be a musical episode. Hush! is most definitely not a musical episode.

It is the most creeptastic episode of Buffy I've ever seen. Jesus, those dudes were freaky. Yeah, I slept well that night. Loved the reveal between Riley and Buffy, loved that he triumphantly smashed the wrong object right before saving the day. My overall feelings about Riley are decidedly ''meh,'' but I feel like the quality of Season 4 has improved dramatically over the last few episodes so I'm not complaining. It was cute how they were speechless at the end of the episode.

We are curious to know, but afraid to actively look for fear of having something spoiled... was Oz leaving related to Seth Green doing other projects, or was it deliberately written into the show for plot development? We feel the show has gotten better since he left, which is no slight intended against Oz because he's one of our favorite characters.

On the Angel side of things, we just finished I Will Remember You, Hero and Parting Gifts. All of these were pretty important episodes for the series I think.

I don't know how you guys feel, but I Will Remember You just seems to underscore how doomed Buffy and Angel's relationship really is. Especially since the Angel spin-off, you're beginning to see that they occupy completely different universes, and the idea of them together is beginning to feel absurd. The push-pull is starting to feel old, I don't even want them to get together. They don't belong together. I see that now.

As far as Hero, [MAJOR SPOILER]... they killed DOYLE?! Are you freakin' kidding me? He was a great character. Totally not expecting that. And kind of pissed about it, to tell you the truth.

Parting Gifts... I will be happy if I never see another episode involving eyeball extractors. *shudder* Anyway, it's Wesley! And he made me laugh with his incompetence. But I don't understand why they had to kill Doyle to bring in Wesley.

As we were falling asleep last night, I commented to Sr. Olives that Cordelia is the most 3-dimensional superficial character I've ever seen written into a show. I also love that despite being shallow, she possesses real intelligence (as in Hero when she tells the captain of the ship that only half of his debt is forgiven, despite the fact that Angel told her to forgive all their debt. This allows her bargaining power to keep the ship from leaving too soon. Clever girl!)

[Mauvaise]

On the Angel side of things, we just finished I Will Remember You,

Holy crap that episode kills me. Heart-wrenching. I both love and hate Joss :D


I don't know for sure, but I think they killed off Doyle because the actor was having issues (he died not too long after of a heroin overdose, I believe). Sad, because I liked him and Doyle, but it does work in the long run plot-wise as you'll see.

[Alessan]

The actor playing Doyle had a major drug problem, which was getting in the way of his work (and eventually killed him a few years later). It's too bad he had to go, but if he hadn't, they probably wouldn't have gotten Wesley - and as you'll see, it was more than a fair trade.

[Ellis Dee]

We are curious to know, but afraid to actively look for fear of having something spoiled... was Oz leaving related to Seth Green doing other projects, or was it deliberately written into the show for plot development? We feel the show has gotten better since he left, which is no slight intended against Oz because he's one of our favorite characters.I don't think Oz was ever a main castmember, but rather a prolonged guest star. But a quick google revealed an answer from the man himself:Why did you leave "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"? - Rachel, Winnebago, IL

My character was conceived as a recurring character and by making me a regular, all of my time was dedicated to working on the show in scenes where my character seemed to be shoehorned into an inappropriate place so that I was regularly featured. I b0egan having other opportunities and working on a show five days a week, 12-14 hours a day, in scene with 10 people, waiting for hours to say a line like "I think Buffy's right," precluded me from taking advantage of them. - Seth

Before reading that quote I would have guessed he was written out purely for story reasons. You'll understand why I would think that within the next half-dozen or so episodes.

EDIT: Here's a link (http://whedonesque.com/comments/12267) to that quote for those not worried about spoilers.

[Tom Scud]

I don't think Oz was ever a main castmember, but rather a prolonged guest star. But a quick google revealed an answer from the man himself:

Before reading that quote I would have guessed he was written out purely for story reasons. You'll understand why I would think that within the next half-dozen or so episodes.

EDIT: Here's a link (http://whedonesque.com/comments/12267) to that quote for those not worried about spoilers.

I remember from the commentaries to either the "Oz leaves" episode or a later episode Whedon saying that he'd been planning to write Oz out, but that his exit was rushed for non-story reasons.

[BrotherCadfael]

[W]as Oz leaving related to Seth Green doing other projects, or was it deliberately written into the show for plot development?Yes.

[olivesmarch4th]

The actor playing Doyle had a major drug problem, which was getting in the way of his work (and eventually killed him a few years later).
That's very tragic.

[Waffle Decider]

(Season 4 Buffy Spoilers and Season 1 Angel Spoilers to follow.)

I don't know how you guys feel, but I Will Remember You just seems to underscore how doomed Buffy and Angel's relationship really is. Especially since the Angel spin-off, you're beginning to see that they occupy completely different universes, and the idea of them together is beginning to feel absurd. The push-pull is starting to feel old, I don't even want them to get together. They don't belong together. I see that now.


I love that episode, and I think it's a great story. It even made me cry, and I'm a guy. However, there's something that doesn't quite make sense to me upon second thought. Angel supposedly thought that he couldn't just be a normal human being and be together with Buffy because, without his superpower, they would be vulnerable and it would put them in danger, or something like that. However, how was that any different from Buffy just dating some normal Joe in college? In fact, she was trying very hard to look for just such a normal relationship right around that time. Did Angel think that Buffy must never date a normal human being, ever? :confused:

[bouv]

I love that episode, and I think it's a great story. It even made me cry, and I'm a guy. However, there's something that doesn't quite make sense to me upon second thought. Angel supposedly thought that he couldn't just be a normal human being and be together with Buffy because, without his superpower, they would be vulnerable and it would put them in danger, or something like that. However, how was that any different from Buffy just dating some normal Joe in college? In fact, she was trying very hard to look for just such a normal relationship right around that time. Did Angel think that Buffy must never date a normal human being, ever? :confused:

Angel knew that because of who he is/was, he will always be involved in the supernatural, people trying to kill him, and he always feels an obligation to fight evil. In theory, if Buffy was just dating some normal dude, that normal dude, while in danger because he was close to Buffy, wouldn't be bringing in any of his own danger.

[Waffle Decider]

Angel knew that because of who he is/was, he will always be involved in the supernatural, people trying to kill him, and he always feels an obligation to fight evil. In theory, if Buffy was just dating some normal dude, that normal dude, while in danger because he was close to Buffy, wouldn't be bringing in any of his own danger.

I guess that was probably it, but I still think it seems to be a lame reason to give up such a rare opportunity. But Angel is stupid like that. :p It wasn't like other members of the Scooby didn't bring their own baggage with them to the gang either. See Buffy season 5, for example. Since she regarded Angel as her "true love", I'm sure she wouldn't consider that a burden.

[olivesmarch4th]

I love that episode, and I think it's a great story. It even made me cry, and I'm a guy. However, there's something that doesn't quite make sense to me upon second thought. Angel supposedly thought that he couldn't just be a normal human being and be together with Buffy because, without his superpower, they would be vulnerable and it would put them in danger, or something like that. However, how was that any different from Buffy just dating some normal Joe in college? In fact, she was trying very hard to look for just such a normal relationship right around that time. Did Angel think that Buffy must never date a normal human being, ever? :confused:
The way I saw it, even if they aren't in a relationship, Buffy needs Angel. He's always jumping in to save her ass at the last minute. The purpose of that episode is to show how Angel is fundamental to Buffy's survival. As a mortal he got the royal beatdown and damn near saw his true love butchered. When Angel heard that the worst was to come, he realized that as a weak mortal he wouldn't be able to protect her. So he could:

a) become mortal and have a relationship with Buffy, only to watch helplessly as she dies, or

b) remain a vampire and not have a relationship with Buffy, but ensure that the woman he loves most in the world actually survives.

Not a wonderful choice.

I would add--though this part is totally my invention--I believe Angel really does feel like he's found meaning in vanquishing evil. Leaving aside the Buffy issue, if he were human he could no longer continue to help others. For Angel I think he's found both his calling and his atonement in his work. Being human would force him to lose both of these. I think that could have motivated his decision as well. Though he doesn't say that explicitly, he mentioned in an earlier episode that the reason he chose to destroy the ring that would make him invincible is because he felt a duty to the people he took care of, the most vulnerable of L.A.'s citizens.

Angel is the Bruce Wayne of the Buffyverse. As much as he has his own personal desires, he can't let those take priority over his duty to protect others, least of all his duty to protect Buffy.

[Mahaloth]

That's very tragic.

Indeed. I've always believed this is what got him kicked off Angel, despite denial from the show runners.

I actually really dislike Angel season 1, by the way.

Angel improves hugely season by season. Season 4 and 5 are amazing...almost better than Buffy. :)

[Tanbarkie]

Indeed. I've always believed this is what got him kicked off Angel, despite denial from the show runners.

I actually really dislike Angel season 1, by the way.

Angel improves hugely season by season. Season 4 and 5 are amazing...almost better than Buffy. :)

Correction - seasons 2, 3, and 5 are amazing. :)

[silenus]

Agreed. Season 4 is abysmal.

[gonzoron]

I would add--though this part is totally my invention--I believe Angel really does feel like he's found meaning in vanquishing evil. Leaving aside the Buffy issue, if he were human he could no longer continue to help others. For Angel I think he's found both his calling and his atonement in his work. Bingo. I don't think I'm spoiling much by saying that this will become a central theme of the series in later seasons. One of things that makes Angel a great character and a great show (from season 2 onward, IMHO, including season 4, warts and all).

[WhyNot]

I guess that was probably it, but I still think it seems to be a lame reason to give up such a rare opportunity. But Angel is stupid like that. :p It wasn't like other members of the Scooby didn't bring their own baggage with them to the gang either. See Buffy season 5, for example. Since she regarded Angel as her "true love", I'm sure she wouldn't consider that a burden.

Angel carries a surfeit of hubris. One thing that consistently pissed me off about his character is that he constantly makes life-altering decisions for other people, like this one for Buffy, instead of trusting them to make their own decisions. He thinks of her as an innocent little bunny and really works the age angle to justify not letting her decide her own lover. And the kicker is that ultimately his decisions are made not with her, but with his own adrenaline junky world savior self in mind. (Well, and, y'know, keeping the spinoff series going.) He's still a selfish bastard wrapped in a hero disguise.

This isn't the last time. And pay back, when it ultimately comes, is a BITCH.

Third Season Angel spoiler. Seriously, Olives, do not read this!:
When Wesley kidnaps Connor, it's out of identical hubris - a false pride that he and only he knows what to do, and so he never consults Angel before making a very lifechanging decision for him.

[Ellis Dee]

Agreed. Season 4 is abysmal.Season 4 is my favorite Angel season, but again like with season 6 Buffy I'm comfortable holding a minority opinion.

Plus, Gwen Raiden! Yowza.

[Waffle Decider]

Angel carries a surfeit of hubris. One thing that consistently pissed me off about his character is that he constantly makes life-altering decisions for other people, like this one for Buffy, instead of trusting them to make their own decisions. He thinks of her as an innocent little bunny and really works the age angle to justify not letting her decide her own lover. And the kicker is that ultimately his decisions are made not with her, but with his own adrenaline junky world savior self in mind. (Well, and, y'know, keeping the spinoff series going.) He's still a selfish bastard wrapped in a hero disguise.

This isn't the last time. And pay back, when it ultimately comes, is a BITCH.

Third Season Angel spoiler. Seriously, Olives, do not read this!:
When Wesley kidnaps Connor, it's out of identical hubris - a false pride that he and only he knows what to do, and so he never consults Angel before making a very lifechanging decision for him.

That's a good point. That's also what annoys me about Angel. I think the thing about atonement by helping the people of LA, as well as the hubris, make a lot more sense than the reason given in the episode.

[Kyla]

As we were falling asleep last night, I commented to Sr. Olives that Cordelia is the most 3-dimensional superficial character I've ever seen written into a show. I also love that despite being shallow, she possesses real intelligence (as in Hero when she tells the captain of the ship that only half of his debt is forgiven, despite the fact that Angel told her to forgive all their debt. This allows her bargaining power to keep the ship from leaving too soon. Clever girl!)

I love Cordelia, and I love the growth she goes through over the years. It's just really well-done.

[pepperlandgirl]

This isn't the last time. And pay back, when it ultimately comes, is a BITCH.

Third Season Angel spoiler. Seriously, Olives, do not read this!:
When Wesley kidnaps Connor, it's out of identical hubris - a false pride that he and only he knows what to do, and so he never consults Angel before making a very lifechanging decision for him.

To be fair to Wesley, I think it was far more tragic than anything Angel ever did (and I agree that Angel's hubris is his greatest flaw). Wesley spent the first half of S3 becoming more and more isolated and I think he was genuinely going crazy. By the time he made his decision to take Connor, he wasn't thinking clearly because he wasn't sleeping--and when he did he had nightmares--and he wasn't eating and worse, he wasn't talking to anybody. It wasn't arrogance that drove him to taking Connor. He absolutely should have consulted Angel, but I think they did a good job of establishing why he felt he couldn't and the fact that at that point he was really no longer himself.

Also, FWIW, I think Angel S4 is one of the finest seasons of television ever produced.

[Ephemera]

Agreed. Season 4 is abysmal.

Agreed. It is not just the worst season of Angel, it is the worst season of any television series produced by Whedon.

Indeed. I've always believed this is what got him kicked off Angel, despite denial from the show runners.

I've always heard (and believed) it was Joss finally being able to kill a series regular early in the show's run, like he always intended with Jesse in Welcome to the Hellmouth and The Harvest.

I love Cordelia, and I love the growth she goes through over the years. It's just really well-done.

It never felt real to me. While Wesley's arc was just as profound, it felt a lot more organic and was eminently believable to me, but I just can't reconcile Cordy's Queen Bee → Den Mother metamorphosis.

[gonzoron]

Remember folks, olives hasn't seen much of Angel yet!

eminently believable to me, but I just can't reconcile Cordy's Queen Bee → Den Mother metamorphosis.High school kids grow up, especially when exposed to the real world. Cordy went from being a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in an enormous pond pretty fast. And from rich to broke when daddy's business went bellyup. Those things can change a person. The superficial high school stuff suddenly seems lees important.

[Ephemera]

Remember folks, olives hasn't seen much of Angel yet!

High school kids grow up, especially when exposed to the real world. Cordy went from being a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in an enormous pond pretty fast. And from rich to broke when daddy's business went bellyup. Those things can change a person. The superficial high school stuff suddenly seems lees important.


Speaking as someone who's only 28, and is still in the throes of my own metamorphosis, I realize that, but the Den Mother characterization never rang true to me, and there was no hint of it in her three seasons of character development in BtVS, and I don't remember much of it in the early seasons of Angel, either, until she was suddenly the matron of Angel Investigations. Her consoling Conner and acting as some sort of warm maternal figure just completely shattered my suspension of disbelief. I just cannot buy it while every other drastic change (Willow as a straight shy geek to a gay chic geek, Wesley from bookworm to badass, and even Spike from a Sid Vicious wannabe into the romantic sap) was pretty believable, for the most part.

[pepperlandgirl]

Speaking as someone who's only 28, and is still in the throes of my own metamorphosis, I realize that, but the Den Mother characterization never rang true to me, and there was no hint of it in her three seasons of character development in BtVS, and I don't remember much of it in the early seasons of Angel, either, until she was suddenly the matron of Angel Investigations. Her consoling Conner and acting as some sort of warm maternal figure just completely shattered my suspension of disbelief. I just cannot buy it while every other drastic change (Willow as a straight shy geek to a gay chic geek, Wesley from bookworm to badass, and even Spike from a Sid Vicious wannabe into the romantic sap) was pretty believable, for the most part.

Wot? You mean her consoling Connor and acting as a warm maternal figure when Connor was all grown up and Cordelia was possessed by Jasmine? And she was trying to seduce Connor so she could be born? Is that the characterization you had a hard time accepting?

[Ephemera]

Wot? You mean her consoling Connor and acting as a warm maternal figure when Connor was all grown up and Cordelia was possessed by Jasmine? And she was trying to seduce Connor so she could be born? Is that the characterization you had a hard time accepting?

Was she already possessed by then? I'm fuzzy on that entire arc because I've only seen it once or twice due to hating it so much, so I very well might have my timeline mixed up. If she was already possessed by that point, it makes sense, and I retract my objection to the character. Everything up to then was much more believable as she was still recognizable as the Cordelia we met in Welcome to the Hellmouth, only more mature.

[Mahaloth]

I've always heard (and believed) it was Joss finally being able to kill a series regular early in the show's run, like he always intended with Jesse in Welcome to the Hellmouth and The Harvest.



Well, David Fury talked about that. He said:



"Joss has bandied about, 'I love the idea of putting a character in the main credits as one of the stars of the show and then kill him right off the bat,'" Fury said. "But in the case of Doyle, he didn't want to kill off Doyle. It just became a situation. The work situation became difficult.... It's hard enough to make a television show without the headaches."

I think they were having issues with Glenn Quinn.

[Alessan]

Technically speaking, the character Cordelia Chase does not appear at all in Season 4 of Angel.

[Justin_Bailey]

I think they were having issues with Glenn Quinn.

While I don't think there's any doubt that Glenn Quinn was a drug addict during his time on Angel, I think the transition from Doyle to Wesley is much too smooth, plotwise, to be the result of a sudden firing.

[pepperlandgirl]

Was she already possessed by then? I'm fuzzy on that entire arc because I've only seen it once or twice due to hating it so much, so I very well might have my timeline mixed up. If she was already possessed by that point, it makes sense, and I retract my objection to the character. Everything up to then was much more believable as she was still recognizable as the Cordelia we met in Welcome to the Hellmouth, only more mature.

It's difficult to say when Cordelia "died" and was replaced by Jasmine. I think it was in S3 when she agreed to let Skip make her "part demon" but in any case, she was possessed when she returned to the Hyperion in S4 from her time with the Powers.

[bouv]

It's difficult to say when Cordelia "died" and was replaced by Jasmine. I think it was in S3 when she agreed to let Skip make her "part demon" but in any case, she was possessed when she returned to the Hyperion in S4 from her time with the Powers.

It was still Cordelia. Didn't Jasmine, or maybe Skip, say that Jasmine "hitched a ride" when Cordy came back from the "heavenly" dimension, or something? It was still Cordy when Skip made her part-demon, IMO. That had two purposes...keep Cordy from getting her brains blown out from the visions, and make it so she could "Ascend to the higher realm."

And not all of Cordy's appearances in Season 4 was Jasmine...the first few times we see her "in heaven," it's her.

[pepperlandgirl]

It was still Cordelia. Didn't Jasmine, or maybe Skip, say that Jasmine "hitched a ride" when Cordy came back from the "heavenly" dimension, or something? It was still Cordy when Skip made her part-demon, IMO. That had two purposes...keep Cordy from getting her brains blown out from the visions, and make it so she could "Ascend to the higher realm."

And not all of Cordy's appearances in Season 4 was Jasmine...the first few times we see her "in heaven," it's her.

Right, but what Aesiron is complaining about was the result of Jasmine. Specifically, Jasmine needed Connor to trust Cordelia so eventually he would father her.

[BigT]

<gah. Already pointed out. Caught on a reread>

[olivesmarch4th]

BUFFY SEASON 4 and ANGEL SEASON 1 SPOILERS TO FOLLOW:

Okay, Buffy Season 4 is finally getting really good. We made great progress this weekend:

Doomed
A New Man
The I in Team
Goodbye Iowa
This Year's Girl (Part One of Two)
Who Are You (Part Two of Two)

I still feel kinda ''okay, whatever'' about Riley, but he's growing on me enough that I give a shit whether he lives or dies. I keep going back and forth between getting caught up in the Initiative drama and thinking it's lame.

Now, as for Willow and her new girlfriend... obviously this girl must be a demon or something because she deliberately threw that experiment to locate nearby demonic forces. But she's also obviously in love with Willow. And I really hope this doesn't turn into ''Joss Whedon's attempt to use magic as a metaphor for lesbianism without actually showing chicks make out.'' Because I would be sort of annoyed with him for not being willing to explicitly portray a lesbian relationship.

I love that in the middle of this Room 314 clusterfuck they dropped Faith into the picture. Jeez. I absolutely loved both of the Faith episodes and consider them the best of the season. I've always felt Faith was an incredibly believable character. She doesn't do things out of evil so much as pure selfishness, and even her decision to do good by saving the church patrons seemed selfishly motivated. But maybe that's sort of the point. Because I think those of us who do try to do good are selfishly motivated, in part.

Which brings us to WhyNot's insightful comment about Angel:

Angel carries a surfeit of hubris. One thing that consistently pissed me off about his character is that he constantly makes life-altering decisions for other people, like this one for Buffy, instead of trusting them to make their own decisions. He thinks of her as an innocent little bunny and really works the age angle to justify not letting her decide her own lover. And the kicker is that ultimately his decisions are made not with her, but with his own adrenaline junky world savior self in mind. (Well, and, y'know, keeping the spinoff series going.) He's still a selfish bastard wrapped in a hero disguise.
This comment made me look more critically at his decisions. The last episodes I watched are:

Somnambulist
Expecting
She
I've Got You Under My Skin
The Prodigal
The Ring

I believe it's in The Prodigal that Kate's father is killed because of his crooked dealings. And Angel's first instinct as she discovers the body of her father is to explain why it wasn't his fault. Twice in the course of her total devastation he feels the need to justify his actions and explain that he's really not a bad guy. He seems to have no concept that there are more important things in that moment than proving his worthiness. Chances are, if he had just kept his mouth shut or just held her or something she wouldn't have retaliated in anger and told him to stay the hell away from her.

However, I think calling him a selfish bastard is oversimplifying things. It would be more apt to say that he is driven by guilt and the need to have that guilt alleviated, to the point that he can't see straight. More than pointing to something wrong with Angel, I think his character points to the human condition. We are all inherently self-motivated people, whether we are willing to own it or not.

And as for Buffy, it's not like he's obligated to consider everyone's feelings but his own. What it comes down to is whether or not he wants to be mortal. He chose not. And while he might be ''working'' that age angle to his advantage, he's got a point. He's 300 fucking years old screwing around with a teenager. He should have played the age card a long time ago.

As for the Angel arc in general, well... there is no arc. I'm waiting for there to be an arc. I like the episodes, individually, and I get that the purpose of them is to show Angel, Cordelia and Wesley learning to trust and rely upon one another, but I would very much like to feel like we're moving in a certain direction. I know that will come with time. I'm just ready.

[gonzoron]

Now, as for Willow and her new girlfriend... obviously this girl must be a demon or something because she deliberately threw that experiment to locate nearby demonic forces. But she's also obviously in love with Willow. And I really hope this doesn't turn into ''Joss Whedon's attempt to use magic as a metaphor for lesbianism without actually showing chicks make out.'' Because I would be sort of annoyed with him for not being willing to explicitly portray a lesbian relationship.I'll try not to spoil anything, but here's a quote from Joss in 2000 "The network obviously has issues. They don't want any kissing -- that's one thing that they've stipulated -- and they're a little nervous about it." So, it's not Joss who's to blame for that.


As for the Angel arc in general, well... there is no arc. I'm waiting for there to be an arc. I like the episodes, individually, and I get that the purpose of them is to show Angel, Cordelia and Wesley learning to trust and rely upon one another, but I would very much like to feel like we're moving in a certain direction. I know that will come with time. I'm just ready.That's my major issue with Angel Season 1 as well. After getting used to Buffy's season long arcs, it was back to the usual episodic TV paradigm. Season 2 is where that really starts to take root in Angel, but your next few episodes will plant some seeds.

[pepperlandgirl]

Don't think of Angel seasons the way you've been trained to watch Buffy seasons. Buffy always follows the same pattern of little bad for the first 12 or so eps and then the arc begins for the Big Bad in earnest. Angel doesn't follow that pattern--the overall arc is for the entire series. Think of S1 like a prologue. The first season gets everybody in place, and then seasons 2, 3, and 4 are all connected as one epic story.

Angel's hubris/selfishness becomes more apparent as the seasons progress. On an episode by episode basis, it's not as evident.

[Justin_Bailey]

Now, as for Willow and her new girlfriend... obviously this girl must be a demon or something because she deliberately threw that experiment to locate nearby demonic forces. But she's also obviously in love with Willow. And I really hope this doesn't turn into ''Joss Whedon's attempt to use magic as a metaphor for lesbianism without actually showing chicks make out.'' Because I would be sort of annoyed with him for not being willing to explicitly portray a lesbian relationship.

Please bear in mind that these episodes originally aired in 2000. Before Willow and Tara there weren't a whole lot of lesbian relationships on TV period. So them not being all over each other (like Riley and Buffy are pretty much all the time) is perfectly in keeping with TV at the time.

[Waffle Decider]

Now, as for Willow and her new girlfriend... obviously this girl must be a demon or something because she deliberately threw that experiment to locate nearby demonic forces. But she's also obviously in love with Willow. And I really hope this doesn't turn into ''Joss Whedon's attempt to use magic as a metaphor for lesbianism without actually showing chicks make out.'' Because I would be sort of annoyed with him for not being willing to explicitly portray a lesbian relationship.


The reason Tara did that would be made clear later on in the show (but not in the near future). However, when I saw that episode for the first time, the way I interpreted it was that Tara thought they really weren't ready for the spell, and that bad thing might ensue if they continued. However, Willow seemed so excited about trying it, and Tara didn't want to hurt her feeling, so she discreetly threw the experiment off.

[BrotherCadfael]

I'll try not to spoil anything, but here's a quote from Joss in 2000 "The network obviously has issues. They don't want any kissing -- that's one thing that they've stipulated -- and they're a little nervous about it." So, it's not Joss who's to blame for that.Not to spoil anything, but the show moved to a different network in season 6. Just sayin'...

[gonzoron]

Not to spoil anything, but the show moved to a different network in season 6. Just sayin'...
Apparently WB came around, though. Tara and Willow's first kiss was in Season 5's The Body.

[BrotherCadfael]

Yeah, but
it was a very chaste, almost sisterly kiss, appropriate for a funeral. You want smoochies, wait for season 6.

[Mauvaise]

Yeah, but
it was a very chaste, almost sisterly kiss, appropriate for a funeral. You want smoochies, wait for season 6.

Yeah, but

Joss makes us pay for those smoochies with our hearts.

[olivesmarch4th]

Please bear in mind that these episodes originally aired in 2000. Before Willow and Tara there weren't a whole lot of lesbian relationships on TV period. So them not being all over each other (like Riley and Buffy are pretty much all the time) is perfectly in keeping with TV at the time.
Ok, I forgive them. And anyway, it's too cute.

Sr. Olives made a comment tonight as we watched ''Superstar'':

''Willow's girlfriend actually makes Willow seem confident.''

Not much else to add about ''Superstar'' -- interesting idea with mediocre execution.

Oh, wait, can I just say that I love Anya?

''You're still here. Why are you still here? Uh... I mean... how wonderful to see you...''

We also just watched ''Eternity'' -- which was a great episode for Angel and a frightening reminder of what a vampire is. Yeesh, it's easy to forget, what with Spike being neutered and all. The brief return of Angelus was rather unexpected, to say the least, but I loved how it drew out all the secret feelings among friends.

''Do you think I did good?''
''I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it.''
''...You didn't say it.''
''...''

[pepperlandgirl]

Yeah, but
it was a very chaste, almost sisterly kiss, appropriate for a funeral. You want smoochies, wait for season 6.

Whoa, you kiss your sister that way? They must do things different where you come from.





;)

[Sitnam]

I love Firefly and want to like this but I just watched the first three episodes of season 1 on Netflix and it really isn't my cup of tea. Can I skip to season two's Hush and get started with the good stuff?

[Bridget Burke]

I love Firefly and want to like this but I just watched the first three episodes of season 1 on Netflix and it really isn't my cup of tea. Can I skip to season two's Hush and get started with the good stuff?

Hush isn't in Season Two. I missed the original run of Buffy for various reasons. Caught various re-runs that made no sense. Then had some time off when a cable channel was showing 4 episodes a day--in the original running order. So I began to get the appeal.

After realizing I enjoyed the show, I started Netflixing Season 1, Episode 1. (In The Old Days, when you actually had to wait for DVD's in the mail box!) Knowing what was to come, I was able to enjoy some of the earliest shows. And I enjoy parts of the later seasons, which some of the original Discussed Every Episode In Home Room set pretend don't exist. Love Angel, too.

Just start watching anywhere, OK! But you will enjoy the show more, the more you know....

In the short run--watch the last 2 episodes in Season 1!

[Bridget Burke]

....In the short run--watch the last 2 episodes in Season 1!

Missed the edit window. You already saw the first episode--which is necessary background.

* Episode 7 ("Angel") gives more background to the ongoing story--for this show & Angel's own.

* Episode 9 ("The Puppet Show") is pretty good in its own right.

* Episode 12 ("Prophecy Girl") is not a 2-parter! But it wraps up the season nicely.

[Omi no Kami]

I love Firefly and want to like this but I just watched the first three episodes of season 1 on Netflix and it really isn't my cup of tea. Can I skip to season two's Hush and get started with the good stuff?

My personal advice is to watch season 1, knowing two things: that the rest of the show is significantly better, and that 1 really sets in stone the character of the main protagonists and goes a long way toward setting the scene for the rest of the show.

If you want to skip, I would agree with Bridge Burke's suggestion that you see Angel, The Puppet Show, and Prophecy Girl, and add:

Episode 3: "Witch" (necessary mythology for later in the series)
Episode 4: "Teacher's Pet" & Episode 6: "The Pack" (some of Xander's best character building)

In any case, once you get to season 2 I recommend watching it straight through: even though some of the earliest S2 episodes are quite weak overall, Whedon hits the ground running with his character development, and there are a lot of 10 and 15-minute segments (not to mention characters) from the first 6 episodes that you won't want to miss.

Regardless, my own opinion has always been that the series truly begins to fall into its niche in season 2, episode 6: "Halloween", and shortly after that shit gets, to repeat a cliche, real.

So enjoy!

[Mahaloth]

I love Firefly and want to like this but I just watched the first three episodes of season 1 on Netflix and it really isn't my cup of tea. Can I skip to season two's Hush and get started with the good stuff?

Hush is in season 4.

Yeah, seriously, season one is week, but it's also pretty short.

This is an amazing show and if you loved Firefly, you will most likely love Buffy. :)

[Mauvaise]

I love Firefly and want to like this but I just watched the first three episodes of season 1 on Netflix and it really isn't my cup of tea. Can I skip to season two's Hush and get started with the good stuff?

I posted this up thread a ways, but this would be the bear minimum I would recommend to get you hooked and have enough back story to enjoy the show:

If you're really not sure about picking up Buffy, watch the following from Season 1:

Angel
Prophecy Girl

From Season 2:

When She Was Bad
What's My Line, Parts 1 & 2
Surprise
Innocence
Passion
Becoming Parts 1 & 2

Then start watching everything from Season 3 and on. You can always go back and watch the rest of S1 & 2 if you want later.

[Ephemera]

It doesn't pertain to the current conversation, but Something to Sing About from OMWF just queued up on my player and gave me chills.

I think I need to pull out my Season Six DVDs.

[BrotherCadfael]

Yeah, seriously, season one is week, but it's also pretty short.Actually, it's about 12 weeks. And, yes, it is somewhat weak.

[Mahaloth]

Actually, it's about 12 weeks. And, yes, it is somewhat weak.

Heh.

My bad.

Wait, why was I even trying to say "12 weaks"? I think I meant 12 episodes. 12 episodes, that were kind of week....I mean weak.

Yeah, that's it.

:smack:

[olivesmarch4th]

Yes, Mr. Whedon, I get it. Sex is bad.

Just saw two more great eps - ''New Moon Rising'' in Buffy Season 4

Even if the network won't show Willow and Tara kissing, I'm glad they at least made their relationship explicit. I was worried it was just going to be episode after episode of Willow's ''special, secret friend'' without making it obvious to anyone in the show's universe that they were an item

and

''Five by Five'' in Angel Season 1.



Poor Wesley. And Angel refusing to kill Faith is just, ugh, insult to injury. Waaaaah she's so misunderstood just like meeeeeeee Waaaaah. Whatever. That bitch is way more trouble than she's worth.

I love getting more backstory on Angel though. That was something I hoped they would do ever since Buffy.

[silenus]

Sex is bad? Ill-considered sex, maybe. But there are numerous repercussion-free boinkings in the Whedon-verse. (Not WTWTA, of course. That episode was just stupid.)

You are now heading into three very good episodes to wrap up Season 4. Pay very close attention to the last one.

[WhyNot]

Sex is bad? Ill-considered sex, maybe. But there are numerous repercussion-free boinkings in the Whedon-verse.

*blink*

*blink blink*

Really? When?


I mean, he says it, ironically, in the commentaries. More than once. "Sex is bad" is a leitmotif for the man! (Do I believe he really believes that? No. Do I believe he really believes it makes good television? Absolutely.)

Dude's got his own subsection under this trope on Television Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SexIsEvil), for goodness' sakes!

[Waffle Decider]

(Not WTWTA, of course. That episode was just stupid.)


Yeah, but on the other hand, we got to see Giles the god of acoustic rock!

[silenus]

Wash/Zoe, Inara/Everybody, Jayne/whores, Giles/Olivia, Giles/Joyce - just to cover what olives has seen.

Then there is Angel/Eve, Angel/Nina, Gunn/Gwen, Spike/Dru, Spike/Harmony...

[olivesmarch4th]

Yeah, but on the other hand, we got to see Giles the god of acoustic rock!
Agreed, that episode was worth it just for that.

[pepperlandgirl]

''Five by Five'' in Angel Season 1.



Poor Wesley. And Angel refusing to kill Faith is just, ugh, insult to injury. Waaaaah she's so misunderstood just like meeeeeeee Waaaaah. Whatever. That bitch is way more trouble than she's worth.

I love getting more backstory on Angel though. That was something I hoped they would do ever since Buffy.

(not going to bother with spoiler boxes here).

I never thought Angel refusing to kill Faith had anything to do with Faith. And I don't think he believes she's simply misunderstood like him. I think for Angel it's far more than that. He doesn't just identify with her, he needs to save her because he needs to be saved himself. Of course, Angel is so full of self-loathing that he probably thinks he doesn't really deserve his redemption, which makes him fight all the harder for others (like Faith this time, though it's a recurring theme for Angel).

On a side note, I hate Five by Five. I hate seeing Wes tortured. It's especially awful because I want to see some comfort after that hurt, and nobody is there for Wes at all. (Also, I ship Wes/Faith and brutal torture is always difficult for a ship to endure. Even in the Whedonverse).

[Ellis Dee]

If anyone is curious but doesn't know what "Five by Five" means -- Willow even lampshades this idea by telling Tara that nobody understands it -- it is a two-way radio term. Radio operators report (to each other) on signal strength and signal clarity on a scale of 1 to 5.

If you pick up the radio and ask how well you can be heard, and the answer that comes back is "five by five," that literally means "loud and clear."

[olivesmarch4th]

If anyone is curious but doesn't know what "Five by Five" means -- Willow even lampshades this idea by telling Tara that nobody understands it -- it is a two-way radio term. Radio operators report (to each other) on signal strength and signal clarity on a scale of 1 to 5.

If you pick up the radio and ask how well you can be heard, and the answer that comes back is "five by five," that literally means "loud and clear."
Huh. I always thought it meant, ''square'' (5x5 dimensions would be square, yeah?) Not as in ''dorky'' but as in, ''all good.'' Thanks for that.

[olivesmarch4th]

I never thought Angel refusing to kill Faith had anything to do with Faith. And I don't think he believes she's simply misunderstood like him. I think for Angel it's far more than that. He doesn't just identify with her, he needs to save her because he needs to be saved himself.
Yes, that's just what I meant to imply. That's how I see it too.

Still stupid. And yes, it's awful for Wesley to go through all that torture and then stumble outside to see Angel comforting Faith. It's total bullshit. If anyone needs me, I'll be in my aaangry dome.

[pepperlandgirl]

On the other hand, this is an important moment for Wesley. He never knew Angelus personally, and it's easy to be on the "Angel deserves forgiveness" train when Wesley isn't the one who has to forgive him. But now...now this is personal. Can Wesley still be committed to redemption, to the idea of atonement and forgiveness, after such a personal and devastating attack? Faith is as much a test for him as she is for Angel.

[Ellis Dee]

But she wouldn't be a problem if some British guy hadn't barged in and taken her just as Angel was making progress...

heh.

[pepperlandgirl]

Indeed. It's really too bad the British guy didn't know any better at the time.

[Mahaloth]

If anyone is curious but doesn't know what "Five by Five" means -- Willow even lampshades this idea by telling Tara that nobody understands it -- it is a two-way radio term. Radio operators report (to each other) on signal strength and signal clarity on a scale of 1 to 5.


You can read about it here. Some more detail. (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?p=444805)

[Bridget Burke]

You can read about it here. Some more detail. (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?p=444805)

There was a B-17 named "Mr Five by Five"--on this page (http://www.acepilots.com/planes/nose-art-b17.html). (Also, off topic, one was named "Pogue Ma Hone.")

[olivesmarch4th]

FINISHED SEASON 4 of BUFFY and SEASON 1 of ANGEL (Spoilers to follow):

Overall impressions of BUFFY SEASON 4... well, what can I say. It's not the best, it's not the worst. It started off by frontloading some pretty terrible episodes but then got pretty good by the end. I'd put my season ranking order at: 2, 3, 4, 1.

I still don't particularly care for Riley. He's every teenage girl's fantasy-in other words, incredibly boring. They couldn't even make him interesting as a government operative. He's a nice guy and all, but yeah, kind of disappointed they didn't kill him off. It could be just Angel-related angst, but I feel like no mortal guy can be Buffy's equal. Riley just looks kind of ridiculous and impotent at her side.

I did really enjoy the Season Finale (The Yoko Factor/Primeval) quite a bit, particularly the way they all came together at the end to support one another. Also, it's clear they went all-out with the budget, and it pays off. When Buffy is ''possessed'' and can stop bullets and shit, it's totally badass. And lots of good explosions.

Restless was the coolest of the cool. I loved it. Great direction, and each dream sequence seemed true to the character. I am particularly fond of the cheese guy. I think one of my favorite episodes of the series.

We have watched the first two eps of Season 5 so far, and it looks like it has real potential.

Buffy v. Dracula is a hilarious premise in the first place, but I like how they used it to serve the bigger picture. Not only do we have Buffy exploring her slayer-identity, but it sounds like Xander's about to experience some changes as well.

Dracula said something to her that sounded very familiar, but I can't remember if it was repeated from an earlier episode of Angel or an earlier episode of Buffy:

''You think you know who you are, what is to come, but you've only just begun.'' (something like that.) Ominous.

And, by the way, the fighting choreography looks a LOT slicker in Season 5 so far. I'm kind of a martial arts/combat enthusiast and there are some impressive fight scenes in the Dracula ep.

And then... Real Me. Dawn, WTF, WTF, WTF? Don't even tell me, I don't even want to know if she's a permanent character or just in for a few episodes. I'd like to see how this unfolds. But seriously, WTF?!!!


Overall impressions of ANGEL SEASON 1. I love Angel. I love Angel, and Wesley, and Cordelia, I love them forever. The growth of these three characters seems really organic to me, and it's not something you would have expected out of either Wesley or Cordelia when they first popped up in Buffy. There are just so many subtle things that just make this show more complete for me, as a character study. Like when Cordelia makes a joke about death, Wesley admonishes her that this is serious business, and Angel remarks under his breath, ''I thought it was funny.''

Now, as for individual eps:

Sanctuary - I think Angel lost his goddamn mind taking in Faith. Having said that, however, Buffy was a total bitch when she discovered them together. I think her hangup is that she struggles to admit that she has selfish motivations sometimes, but the wounded puppy act was totally misplaced here, and she hurt Angel's feelings on purpose by emphasizing the trust she felt she shared with Riley (this was also a misrepresentation, because she still hides things from Riley.) She deserved to be told to get the hell out of his face. That he would then feel the need to come all the way to Sunnydale to apologize is complete and utter bullshit.

War Zone- did anyone else notice that after this episode, in which he is forced to slay his own sister, Gunn becomes Mr. Personality? I like his new personality better, but jeez, talk about a 180.

Blind Date - Interesting. I liked getting more character development with Lindsay, and the execution of this episode was great. Wolfram and Heart began to feel more like a real organization with real people rather than just a faceless Supervillian. The idea of personal choice to do good or evil seems to be a recurrent theme on Angel.

To Shanshu in L.A. - the Series Finale. I believe this was the best episode out of the entire season. Angel is just getting progressively better and better. Cordelia's vision/torment situation seemed crucial to the development of her character; empathy is something Cordey has generally lacked -- now she's in a situation where she has no choice but to feel the pain of others. This must change her perspective.

Other things I love about this episode:
-We're going somewhere, finally. Angel gets to be human, eventually, if he fulfills his destiny. There are prophecies that must be fulfilled. The oracles are slain. Strange things are afoot.
-Angel finally laid the smack down on Kate. I think one of his flaws is he allows himself to be treated like a doormat because of his guilt for past wrongs. I'm glad he finally just told her to quit slinging her shit on him.
-Angel totally threw an axe and cut off Lindsay's hand! Awesome.

Have only watched the first episode of Angel Season 2 so far, and all I can really say about it is that the scene where they storm the health club, kick in the mirror, slay the demon and walk out while everyone else stands there stuttering is awesome. Though I really think Angel has an edge with the billowy trenchcoat. Everything is cooler with a billowy trenchcoat.

[Kyla]

She deserved to be told to get the hell out of his face. That he would then feel the need to come all the way to Sunnydale to apologize is complete and utter bullshit.

I think they just did this so they could set up Riley v. Angel. Or do I have my episodes turned around? I remember when this originally aired and I was pretty gleeful at the idea of Angel kicking the shit out of Riley. I didn't really dislike Riley, honestly, but I was annoyed with his angst about how he could never live up to Angel. Because he couldn't. He was a nice boy from Iowa that Buffy liked and Angel was a tormented resouled vampire (in a billowy trenchcoat) with whom Buffy had a ridiculously melodramatic relationship for three years. Come on, you know he couldn't measure up to that. He should have just sucked it up.

[Ellis Dee]

I was a big fan of the final battle against Adam, but most fans hate Adam and think it was stupid. Glad to see you share some of my outlier tastes; that might mean you'll really love season 6 Buffy.

Season 5 Buffy is unanimously viewed as all kinds of awesome, so you're in for a treat.

I think Angel is just a better show by virtue of being more about grownups. In Buffy, the closest they come to being grownups is when they come out and say that they're grownups with grownup responsibilities, which is itself a childish thing to do. In Angel, they just are grownups. Sort of like how any mention of class is a sign of not having class, any mention of maturity is a sign of immaturity.

Logo is just about to the end of season 7 Buffy, and yeah, it's not a great season. It does drag, there aren't enough sets, and there aren't enough monsters of the week. (Which is why there aren't enough sets.) Compared to other Buffy, it feels claustrophobic, muted, and devoid of humor. Still pretty goood, though.

One thing I'm having fun with is keeping in mind what's happening on Angel while watching season 7. The shit is hitting the fan in the worst way for both shows. It's funny because watching it (or Angel S4) I'll be thinking that they should really be calling each other for help, but both situations are worse than each other. Totally nuts. Early 2003 was a bad time to live in Whedonverse California. heh.

I still don't particularly care for Riley. He's every teenage girl's fantasy-in other words, incredibly boring.
[...]
Dawn, WTF, WTF, WTF? Don't even tell me, I don't even want to know if she's a permanent character or just in for a few episodes. I'd like to see how this unfolds. But seriously, WTF?!!!
[...]
...Wolfram and Heart...
Agreed on Riley. It's mostly by design, but still. Even his quips are forced, like that stupid line about missing her name (or whatever) "in all the concussion," which the writers were so proud of they included it in like 3 episodes' "previously on..." recaps. Ugh. He gets a little better in season 5, but everything with and about Riley feels forced, both in the show and from a meta-perspective about the show.

Not giving anything away about Dawn the character, the actress who played her, Michelle Trachtenberg, was on a soap opera with Sarah Michelle Gellar. Sarah's recommendation helped her get the role of Dawn.

It's "Wolfram and Hart", not "Heart." Like the name as opposed to the organ.

[Knorf]

It's "Wolfram and Hart", not "Heart." Like the name as opposed to the organ.

Actually, like the ruminant mammal as opposed to the organ.

As in, The Wolf, The Ram, and The Hart.

[Kyla]

I started watching Buffy in S4 (this was before it was in reruns anywhere; I eventually did catch the first three seasons on FX), and I missed a few episodes here and there. When Dawn showed up for the first time, I had a moment of absolute confusion. Was it possible that Buffy had had this sister the entire time, and I'd just never seen her before? It took me awhile to determine that no, Dawn really had just magically appeared one day.

Season 7 does have a couple of bright spots: Conversations with Dead People and Storyteller are two of my favorite episodes of the entire run.

[silenus]

Buffy v. Dracula is a hilarious premise in the first place, but I like how they used it to serve the bigger picture. Not only do we have Buffy exploring her slayer-identity, but it sounds like Xander's about to experience some changes as well.

Dracula said something to her that sounded very familiar, but I can't remember if it was repeated from an earlier episode of Angel or an earlier episode of Buffy:

''You think you know who you are, what is to come, but you've only just begun.'' (something like that.) Ominous.

And, by the way, the fighting choreography looks a LOT slicker in Season 5 so far. I'm kind of a martial arts/combat enthusiast and there are some impressive fight scenes in the Dracula ep.

About Dracula in the Whedonverse: (Spoilers for Season 8 - The Comics)

Xander and Drac have some "guy-time," and bond. When some Japanese vamps steal the Scythe from Buffy by using some tricks they stole from Dracula, the Scooby Gang and Dracula head to Japan for some payback. Drac gets off the best lines of the whole arc -

Bad Vamp: Just like an old man. Needs his cane to stand. He doesn't know what to do with himself now that he's an ordinary vampire again. Like the rest of us.

Drac (holding a sword): My boy, I was never an ordinary vampire. (slices off vamps hand) Or did you forget who I used to be? (slices off vamps leg) I killed more men than God's plagues combined. And that was before I started eating people for fun. (slices another hand off) The fields of Europe used to stream with the blood of my enemies. Trust me...the vampire is the least of your concerns. It's the old man you need to worry about." :D

[Ellis Dee]

Actually, like the ruminant mammal as opposed to the organ.Yes, of course I know this, having watched the show. I was trying not to spoil her for the Pylea trip, so I chose my words carefully.

[Waffle Decider]

Dracula said something to her that sounded very familiar, but I can't remember if it was repeated from an earlier episode of Angel or an earlier episode of Buffy:

''You think you know who you are, what is to come, but you've only just begun.'' (something like that.) Ominous.


That's what Tara (presumably speaking for the spirit of the first slayer) told Buffy in her dream sequence in Restless.

I love Real Me. The breakfast scene in the beginning where Dawn used up all the milk and Buffy giving her the stare of death just cracked me up every time. This episode reminded me a lot about my relationship with my older sister.

[gonzoron]

It could be just Angel-related angst, but I feel like no mortal guy can be Buffy's equal. Riley just looks kind of ridiculous and impotent at her side.Yup, as mentioned, I think that's the point, and from that perspective, I think he works as a character. I realize that's a minority opinion, though.

Restless was the coolest of the cool. I loved it. Great direction, and each dream sequence seemed true to the character. I am particularly fond of the cheese guy. I think one of my favorite episodes of the series.And now that you've seen the start of S5, you can already appreciate some of the foreshadowing. For example, Tara: "“Be back before Dawn”.

Believe it or not, the foreshadowing goes back even further: From This Year’s Girl...
Buffy: “I wish I could stay, but…”
Faith: “Oh, you have to go.”
Buffy: “That’s just what…”
Faith: “Little sis coming. I know.”
Buffy: “So much to do before she gets here.”


And then... Real Me. Dawn, WTF, WTF, WTF? Don't even tell me, I don't even want to know if she's a permanent character or just in for a few episodes. I'd like to see how this unfolds. But seriously, WTF?!!!Yup, my 2nd favorite part of S5 The Body, of course is this WTF introduction of Dawn. I will say no more, but it was total genius. (I love a lot of the moments in S5, but I'm one of the few who didn't like the overall story arc at all. )


I love Angel. I love Angel, and Wesley, and Cordelia, I love them forever. The growth of these three characters seems really organic to me, and it's not something you would have expected out of either Wesley or Cordelia when they first popped up in Buffy.Bingo. And you're only 1/5 of the way through.

Angel remarks under his breath, ''I thought it was funny.''Yeah, I love that for all his angst and guilt, etc. Angel can just be a goofball sometimes.

Cordelia's vision/torment situation seemed crucial to the development of her character; empathy is something Cordey has generally lacked -- now she's in a situation where she has no choice but to feel the pain of others. This must change her perspective.Very good point. There's a spoiler conversation upthread regarding Cordy's development you might want to read after Angel S4 or so. I missed this point when defending her development as organic and believable. Please pretend I said it. ;)

[Alessan]

Yeah, I love that for all his angst and guilt, etc. Angel can just be a goofball sometimes.


I've come to the realization that Angel's deep, dark secret is that under the superpowers, curses and billowing coats, he's essentially a dork.

[Bridget Burke]

I've come to the realization that Angel's deep, dark secret is that under the superpowers, curses and billowing coats, he's essentially a dork.

Barry Manilow!

[silenus]

Which explains why he was so bloody-thirsty and terrible as a vampire. All that repressed dorkness, suddenly unleashed without conscience or sense of embarrassment.

[Waffle Decider]

I think you've got something there. Spike was also a big dork before becoming a vampire.

[WhyNot]

Heh. Perhaps there are "dorklines" in the Vampire lineages. One clan prone to choosing dorks, another jocks...would be a fun idea to play with!

[Mahaloth]

Here we go again!

My wife and I just watched the pilot and are about to go through Buffy(and inevitably Angel) for the....5th time, I'm guessing?

She always talks me into it and I always am glad we're going through it.

[Ellis Dee]

Along those lines, Logo just showed the S7 finale, so they should be starting over from S1 next week if anyone else wants to jump in from the beginning.That red axe thing is every bit as stupid looking now as when it first aired. Ugh.

[silenus]

You mean the Scythe?

Yeah, that was just stupid.

[Waffle Decider]

I did get a chuckle out of the line

So it's true. Scythe matters.

Coming from Willow no less.

I'm immature...

[bouv]

Season 7 could have been so much better.
The first half of the season is fine, and Conversations with Dead People is a great episode all around. But the Slayerettes...ugh. Kennedy especially...I didn't get the hate for her when I first watched season 7, but I was only 20 and was distracted by the "ooh, a hot lesbian lover for Willow! Woo!" to not notice the suck.
Season 7 even gets some more interesting backstory for The Slayer. With Caleb getting pissed that the power "was for her and her alone" (something like that,) indicating he wanted The Slayer's power but couldn't have it. And I forget which episode it is, but there's one where Buffy finds a way to get more power, and the story of the original slayer is shown to us through shadows...really cool, and to find out that The Slayer's power came originally from a demon was a nice little twist. And then when Giles and Anya go to the other dimension and talk with the eyeball monster, they find out The First is appearing now because Buffy came back from the dead.
I thought they were then going to go a route where they find out that The Slayer's power is split, since there are two, and it got even more split when Buffy came back a second time. I then thought the series would end with Buffy finding a way to give all her power back to Faith, and she could retire as The Slayer, and the power would be all back in one vessel and The First would be stopped.

But nope...they decided, since The Slayer's power is split a little, why not split it a LOT MORE and make every potential Slayer a real Slayer...WTF? Oh, that's right, cause The Scythe has the power, or something...:rolleyes:

I can only imagine the horror caused the world over as thousands of little girls suddenly gained super strength. Sucks to be whoever was unlucky enough to be an older brother of one of them and thought her little 15 year-old girly punch wouldn't hurt...

[Ellis Dee]

Or to be the hapless vampire who has to track down the psycho slayer who as a child was tortured to insanity by a serial killer. You didn't use your hands for anything, right?

I really liked the slayer origin twist, as you mentioned, because it was foreshadowed way back in the Dracula episode at least.But yeah, I concur, The first half of S7 was quite good, but then it went off the rails there toward the end.

[John DiFool]

Per bouv's last post, I'll just say that the canonical S8 comic books/graphic novels does indeed delve into exactly how horrific that is. But I did like the girl who was being bullied and turned the tables on her attacker, and the softball girl who was about to launch the pitch into orbit.

[twickster]

Per bouv's last post, I'll just say that the canonical S8 comic books/graphic novels does indeed delve into exactly how horrific that is. But I did like the girl who was being bullied and turned the tables on her attacker, and the softball girl who was about to launch the pitch into orbit.

The post was reported with the request that I add a spoiler box -- since I don't know this show, I wasn't sure what I was spoilering. If what I did didn't take care of it, let me know. People, when you put in these requests, please be specific about where the spoilers are.

Thanks.

[John DiFool]

I thought I was cryptic enough about it-guess not. (sorry)

[Miller]

Heh. Perhaps there are "dorklines" in the Vampire lineages. One clan prone to choosing dorks, another jocks...would be a fun idea to play with!

I always thought that the show had a strong, unstated implication that most vampires deliberately choose dorks, idiots, wannabes, and other losers. Vampires aren't big on loyalty: every time they turn someone, they're creating a potential rival. So, they deliberately target people that they think they can control, leading to a lot of dim-witted canon fodder running around. One of the things that makes older vampires so dangerous is that they're powerful enough to keep smart, canny vampires in check. They don't have to be so picky about what sort of victim they pick out, and so their minions tend to be more dangerous than your run-of-the-mill vampire who was turned by a spoiled cheerleader, or something.

[Mahaloth]

I always thought that the show had a strong, unstated implication that most vampires deliberately choose dorks, idiots, wannabes, and other losers. Vampires aren't big on loyalty: every time they turn someone, they're creating a potential rival. So, they deliberately target people that they think they can control, leading to a lot of dim-witted canon fodder running around. One of the things that makes older vampires so dangerous is that they're powerful enough to keep smart, canny vampires in check. They don't have to be so picky about what sort of victim they pick out, and so their minions tend to be more dangerous than your run-of-the-mill vampire who was turned by a spoiled cheerleader, or something.

But Angel was not a dork. Nor was Darla.

What major vampires do we know?

Angel(womanizer), Darla(prostitute), Spike(Dork), Drusilla(crazy), Master(unknown), Harmony(dumb girl), Mr Trick(not a dork)...who else?

What evidence is there that losers become vampires?

[pepperlandgirl]

What evidence is there that losers become vampires?

Every single stupid minion that Buffy ever killed because they were utterly brainless fodder?

Angel is a dork, but...sometimes I think his dorkiness is an act. Kind of like in Kill Bill 2 when Bill explains that Superman wears a human costume--Clark Kent.

[bouv]

But Angel was not a dork. Nor was Darla.

What major vampires do we know?

Angel(womanizer), Darla(prostitute), Spike(Dork), Drusilla(crazy), Master(unknown), Harmony(dumb girl), Mr Trick(not a dork)...who else?

What evidence is there that losers become vampires?

I wouldn't say they chose necessarily chose dorks or losers, but there might be some credence to them choosing people that they thought they could easily control once they were turned.

Angel was a bit of a dork, or at least an 18th century version of one. All he did was booze all night, hit on barmaids and his family's help, and sleep all day. Since there wasn't much to be "dorky" about back then, that's about as close as you could get. Darla figured that since he loved women so much, he would pretty much do whatever she said/wanted (and this is pretty much true.)


Darla, being a prostitute, was likely not smart/educated, not well-to-do, and probably lacked any sort of real skills (hence why she whored herself out.) Clearly not the best and the brightest the 1600's had to offer. And as with Angel, she pretty much did do whatever her sire asked of her, up until she sired Angel and she wanted to be with him...but then once Angel got his soul, she went back to The Master.

Harmony was just turned by a random vamp, so we don't know what, if any, big plan he had, but she (as shown several times) is a terrible vampire. No worry about her usurping anyone's power.

Spike, as we all agree, was a huge dork, so we know Drusilla felt she could keep him in check.

Drusilla was a little crazy from her visions, but went more crazy after getting tortured and then turned by Angel. Since he practically broke her psyche into that of a little girl's, he knew he could control her.

At the start of season 4 of Buffy, she fights a group of really pretentious douche vampires who are stuck in the early 90's. We don't know who turned who, but I'd bet money that blond chick that was in charge turned at least a couple of the ones that were even bigger losers than her.

In season 2 of Angel, Darla tries to get some random vamp to turn her back, and he admits he has never done it, and he was a GIANT dork when he was turned.


And we don't know anything, really, about The Master, Kakistos, Mr.Trick, The Prince of Lies, or other older vamps other than the fact that they are old. Did they survive for so long because they were the strongest/smartest/whatever when they were humans? Or were they average or below average, and just lucked out in their early vampire years and became the strongest/smartest/whatever? Hard to say.

I'd like to think that some of the earlier vampires were turned because they were strong and smart, back when maybe a lot of demons and vampires thought they would "take back" the world from the humans. In the intervening years, enough of the newly sired ones killed their masters and decided they would rather not have that happen to them, so started to turn the losers into vamps.

[Ellis Dee]

Angel was a bit of a dork, or at least an 18th century version of one. All he did was booze all night, hit on barmaids and his family's help, and sleep all day. Since there wasn't much to be "dorky" about back then, that's about as close as you could get.There has always been plenty to be "dorky" about, and your description of him is the antithesis of what a dork is. All it takes to be a dork is to prefer the focus on meaningless minutia to the company of the opposite sex. I know virtually nothing of the mid-1700s; maybe a dork would be way into alchemy, or making ships-in-a-bottle or something.

[twickster]

bouv -- just got a report that most of your post included spoilers -- which, per the premise of the thread, should not be left hanging out in the open. I've never watched Buffy, so I don't know what is and what isn't a spoiler -- but please be careful not to throw down a bunch of information that the OP has specifically requested that you be cautious about revealing.

Thanks,

twickster, Cafe Society moderator

[bouv]

bouv -- just got a report that most of your post included spoilers -- which, per the premise of the thread, should not be left hanging out in the open. I've never watched Buffy, so I don't know what is and what isn't a spoiler -- but please be careful not to throw down a bunch of information that the OP has specifically requested that you be cautious about revealing.


Really? I was under the impression that olivesmarch4th had already watched everything I posted...she is in Angel season 2/Buffy season 5, and that's as far as what I posted goes, but better safe than sorry I suppose.

There has always been plenty to be "dorky" about, and your description of him is the antithesis of what a dork is.

Well I got the impression that he wasn't successful with the ladies. He hit on them all the time, but was also turned down all the time.

[pepperlandgirl]

Well I got the impression that he wasn't successful with the ladies. He hit on them all the time, but was also turned down all the time.

Why is this even a spoiler? Hey people who are eager to report posts for spoilers, what I'm about to write in response to this non-spoiler is more non-spoilers.

Angel/Liam was quite successful with the ladies because he was at the bar. Where all the ladies were prostitutes and serving girls. And I believe it was implied in Amends that he didn't really care if they were agreeable or not. Liam's problem wasn't that he wasn't good at the whoring and the drinking--his problem was that he was too good. Just like Angelus' "problem" was that he was too good at the maiming and the killing. And each time, the ultimate result of quenching his big appetites for drink and flesh was a type of death.

[gonzoron]

Really? I was under the impression that olivesmarch4th had already watched everything I posted...she is in Angel season 2/Buffy season 5, and that's as far as what I posted goes, but better safe than sorry I suppose.I'm the one who reported it, and if my memory is fuzzy, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure some of that post wasn't revealed until LATE in Angel Season 2, and olives was only up to the first few eps of Angel S2/Buffy S5, last we knew.

SpecificallyThe backstory on Angel and Darla, as well as Darla coming back human. Also, Spike's dorkishness isn't revealed until "Fool for love", which is a little ways into Buffy S5.

May have jumped the gun a bit in asking for the whole post to be spoilered, but as an extremely spoiler-averse person, I didn't want to risk ruining anything for olives, and I didn't have time this morning to delve into wiki and confirm.

[Ellis Dee]

And in the interest of openness, I'm the one who reported the spoiler at the bottom of the previous page, so it's not just one person running around reporting spoilers.

John DiFool did word it cryptically, but it still came awfully close to spoiling......the big reveal at the end of the series finale.

[PunditLisa]

.)2) Joss cannot plot a story-arc to save his life...

He's a genius compared to j.j. abrams.

[silenus]

Or Ron Moore.

[olivesmarch4th]

We are now dead center in the middle of Buffy Season 5/ Angel Season 2.

UNBOXED SPOILERS to follow. Episodes covered in Buffy Season 5:

The Replacement
Out of My Mind
No Place Like Home
Family
Fool for Love
Shadow
Listening to Fear
Into the Woods

I wasn't sure where they were going with Dawn and worried they were going to make it into something stupid, but now that her purpose has been revealed, I am absolutely loving the story arc. Those monk dudes did the most brilliant thing ever by placing their key with Buffy in the form of a human. And it certainly adds to the drama that she has no idea. Glory is a fun villain. They do a god job playing her up to be a real threat.

So much good stuff going on this season I'm sure I will forget to mention some of it. The Spike crushing on Buffy thing is somewhere between creepy and hilarious. The episode Fool For Love, where we get Spike's history, is wonderfully directed, especially that bit where they splice together scenes of Buffy ''fighting'' Spike and Spike fighting the slayer on a subway in New York. (And awesome crossover showing the Boxer Rebellion both from Spike's POV in Buffy and later from Angel's POV in Angel.) Obviously he doesn't have a shot in hell but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Then we have the brain tumor drama, which certainly complicates things. At first I thought it was kinda cheap but they did it well enough. If I can just add, that alien creature from Listening to Fear is hands-down the creepiest fucking thing I have ever seen. I could not be alone after watching that.

I also really enjoyed The Replacement, which made literal Xander's insecurities. I like how they have shown his character growing over this season, particularly that he stepped in when Buffy and Riley were imploding. I want Xander to be happy.

Speaking of Buffy/Riley imploding, that's basically where we left off. I've been wanting Riley gone for a while now but they didn't have to do it so tragically! Buffy definitely dropped the ball in this relationship but so did Riley. It is kind of B.S. that he expected her to get over such a huge betrayal in time to stop him from leaving that same day. But it is tragic they couldn't work it out.

Regardless, Season 5 of Buffy is absolutely the best season so far and it's only halfway through. I think what makes it great is that even though they are dealing with several different plot and character arcs, it all seems like part of a cohesive whole. It all makes sense. My current ranking would be 5, 2, 3, 4, 1.

Thoughts on the first half of Angel Season 2 to follow in a while.

[silenus]

Attention, everybody who has seen Buffy/Angel: Not a word. Not a hint. Not a reference. Not even a "Boy, are you in for a ride!" Let her see it fresh, with no clue as to what is about to happen. We owe her (and the cast/crew/Joss) that much.

The Buffy/Riley implosion was very well done. I felt like you do, and almost teared up during Into the Woods.

[olivesmarch4th]

MAJOR ANGEL SEASON 2 UNBOXED SPOILERS

I was just going back through this thread to see if there were any spoilers I could read now (there were a few, and though I didn't read others I can tell what is being discussed and CAN'T WAIT to put in my 2c.)

BigT's comment a while back just sparked a serious ''OMG'' moment in light of recent events on Angel:


Now, the demon "soul" has no will of its own, but feeds off the dark desires that are in its human host. So even when the corpse gets its old soul back, it still has to contend with the fact that it was his/her desires that caused him to be that way. Angelus is just Angel's evil desires on overdrive sans conscience. Except that the demon "soul" won't let him feel good without doing evil, thus twisting his ideas of love and happiness.[/spoiler]

I just finished watching episode 11 of Angel Season 2. For those who don't remember the 11th episode of Angel Season 2, it's ''Reunion.'' You know, the one where he gleefully leaves Darla and Drusilla to feast on his enemies at Wolfram and Hart. Key word being ''gleeful.'' As in, happiness...

Our general reaction to the end of ''Reunion'' was ''Oh shit, oh shit. Oh shit.''

But given BigT's comment and the nature of Angel's curse I realize a more appropriate response may be ''OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT!!!''

[Ellis Dee]

It is kind of B.S. that he expected her to get over such a huge betrayal in time to stop him from leaving that same day. But it is tragic they couldn't work it out.It's about this time in the series that Buffy running becomes a running joke. Have we ever seen her running and end up with a good result?

[olivesmarch4th]

It's about this time in the series that Buffy running becomes a running joke. Have we ever seen her running and end up with a good result?
Ha, I never thought about it that way before.

We just watched episode 12 ''Triangle'' and before it started I said, ''This is the episode where Buffy mopes a lot over Riley.'' I thought the fact that they filled it with a lot of action and (mostly) underplayed the drama was really refreshing. Also, ''Puny receptacle!'' (said by Troll as he smashes a dumpster) still has me giggling.

Willow: You've been around a long time, you should know all the rules by now.
Anya: The rules are stupid.

I love Anya.

As far as Angel, haven't watched further than Ep. 11 yet, but still... processing. I think I will wait a few more episodes before I share my thoughts.

[Mahaloth]

Yeah, I still think Angel doesn't really get to its best stuff until season 4. I know that's a long ride, but I think seasons 4 and 5 of Angel are the best "Buffy" seasons of all.

Anyway, what do you think of Glory?

[Miller]

But Angel was not a dork.

No, but he was a major loser - a womanizing drunk who was never going to amount to much of anything. If you watch the flashback episodes from shortly after he was turned, Darla seems surprised by how much of a bad-ass he became when he was turned into a vampire. Darla thought she was creating another mook. What she ended up getting surprised even herself.

Nor was Darla.

Right. And she was created personally by the Master, who specifically sought her out to serve her. Remember, there's two sides to my argument here: one is that most vampires deliberately seek out losers, dorks, and wannabes because they'll be easier to control. The other side is that truly ancient vampires are limited by this, because they're so powerful they don't have to worry about their spawn turning into credible threats.

What major vampires do we know?

Angel(womanizer), Darla(prostitute), Spike(Dork), Drusilla(crazy), Master(unknown), Harmony(dumb girl), Mr Trick(not a dork)...who else?

For the most part, looking at "major" vampires (I assume you mean major in the sense of "plot important") isn't going to tell us anything, because, aside from the occasional comic relief, the major reoccuring vampiric characters are going to be the ones that are especially dangerous, otherwise they'd get killed by Buffy as soon as they show up. These vampires are exceptions to the rule, either because they were sired directly by an ancient vampire (Darla, Mr. Trick), or because something about their mortal existence was limiting their potential (Angel, Spike) and it wasn't until they were freed from the constraints of their mortal morality that they reached their full bad-ass potential.

What evidence is there that losers become vampires?

Pretty much every other vampire in the show who shows up for one episode and takes a stake to the chest. I'm thinking of folks like the Gorch brothers, or Harmony's coterie, or the vampire that tries to kill Willow in the pilot, and is spotted by Buffy because of his atrocious fashion sense. The canon fodder, not the major movers and shakers.

[Ellis Dee]

Yeah, I still think Angel doesn't really get to its best stuff until season 4. I know that's a long ride, but I think seasons 4 and 5 of Angel are the best "Buffy" seasons of all.I have trouble differentiating the first three seasons of Angel in my memory because they lacked an overall story arc. That makes it hard to argue that seaosns 4 and 5 aren't the best Angel seasons, since those are the only two that I recall clearly. But I don't think I'd put them as the two best of the Buffyverse. Buffy S5, S6 and S3 are really good. Would it be weakminded if I went with a 5-way tie? heh.

[Ephemera]

Season three is when it got arc-heavy, with Holtz and Connor, and ostracized Wesley. It built everything up wonderfully, but it got absolutely terrible the second teenaged Connor showed up, and didn't stop sucking until the fifth season.

\The common wisdom (which I disagree with) is that the last two seasons of Buffy were the worst, and that the first season was pretty boring, but it's worse than all three of those combined. There are no words strong enough to describe how terrible the fourth season of Angel was.

[Mahaloth]

I have trouble differentiating the first three seasons of Angel in my memory because they lacked an overall story arc. That makes it hard to argue that seaosns 4 and 5 aren't the best Angel seasons, since those are the only two that I recall clearly. But I don't think I'd put them as the two best of the Buffyverse. Buffy S5, S6 and S3 are really good. Would it be weakminded if I went with a 5-way tie? heh.

Well, this is where it gets to spoilery to talk about here, but I can distinctly tell the seasons aprart like this.

Angel in a nutshell:

Season 1: Meh

Season 2: Better, but only OK

Season 3: Oh, now this is getting kind of good

Season 4: Wow!!

Season 5: Amazing!!

[pepperlandgirl]

I have trouble differentiating the first three seasons of Angel in my memory because they lacked an overall story arc. .

You need to watch the first 3 seasons again then. Season 1 is essentially a prologue with a lot of groundwork laid in the final two episodes. Seasons 2, 3, and 4 are structured as one large arc. Angel was not ever like BtVS with clear "little bads" and "big bads" and a formula that was built into the pacing of the episodes. Season 4 doesn't even make any sense without the 2 seasons worth of build-up and plotting that led to those events. I think it's one of the best plotted, best paced, ambitious story arcs I've ever seen on television. I can't think of another series that had one story span so many seasons and kept it cohesive from start to finish.

[Ellis Dee]

Yes, but that's exactly why they blend together. It's easy to tell at a glance what season any given episode is in, but other than the last couple episodes in a season I wouldn't be able to place an episode based on just a plot summary.

Season 1 - In the original office, or even more obvious if Doyle is there
Season 2 - In the hotel but no Fred
Season 3 - Hotel with Fred

The thing is, I can't seem to separate Seasons 3 & 4. The entire Darla/Connor storyline is fixed in my mind as a single season for some reason.

[pepperlandgirl]

Yes, but that's exactly why they blend together. It's easy to tell at a glance what season any given episode is in, but other than the last couple episodes in a season I wouldn't be able to place an episode based on just a plot summary.

Season 1 - In the original office, or even more obvious if Doyle is there
Season 2 - In the hotel but no Fred
Season 3 - Hotel with Fred

The thing is, I can't seem to separate Seasons 3 & 4. The entire Darla/Connor storyline is fixed in my mind as a single season for some reason.

Ahh, sorry. I see what you meant. I'm a bit quick to rush to the defense of AtS because I feel like it's often unfairly dismissed and I just love it so.

[BigT]

Yes, but that's exactly why they blend together. It's easy to tell at a glance what season any given episode is in, but other than the last couple episodes in a season I wouldn't be able to place an episode based on just a plot summary.

Season 1 - In the original office, or even more obvious if Doyle is there
Season 2 - In the hotel but no Fred
Season 3 - Hotel with Fred

The thing is, I can't seem to separate Seasons 3 & 4. The entire Darla/Connor storyline is fixed in my mind as a single season for some reason.

I personally tend to blur seasons 1 and 2, thinking that season 3 is season 2. So Olives really hasn't seen the episode that got me to look up how Vampires worked in this series

The one where Angel turns into a full demon while in the hell dimension.

[olivesmarch4th]

Finally saw it. ''The Body.'' Major unboxed Buffy Season 5 Spoilers to follow.

Finished about three hours ago. Streaming tears from start to finish--my husband too. We just watched and handed the tissue box around in utter silence. We had planned to get back to work immediately following that episode, but we couldn't. Instead we cooked dinner together.

Still feels like a giant weight on my chest.

Out of everyone I related most to Anya. When my uncle died a couple years ago very unexpectedly at just 30 years old, I was utterly dumbfounded and had no idea what to do. The way she just wanted to help but didn't understand what was appropriate and was just experiencing death in general for the first time... all very much my experience. Trying to be there for my grandmother in her grief when I was very much reeling myself required herculean effort, and I still feel like I failed. That's what I think is extraordinary about this episode -- there's a role for everyone to recognize themselves in.

The way they did the first several minutes in real time, making you feel the weight of discovering the body and sitting with it and feeling Buffy's shock was pretty brutal. The sound of her ribs cracking and everything, it was just too real.

I also hope the makeup artists got some kind of award for the job they did on Joyce. You knew she was dead right from the beginning; she didn't look right. Realizing Buffy still was not able to come to terms with that was really hard. Realizing she was trying to breath life into a corpse was really hard. Seeing Joyce progressively look less and less like Joyce was really hard. I really feel it was one of the most important things makeup has ever done in a television series.

Very well handled with Dawn, particularly as her drama of the day was pronounced ''really not all that important'' and her friend had no idea how right she was. All the little things, the worrying about what to wear and the punching the wall and the way things somehow are normal at the same time as they are surreal... all very true. Probably the most realistic depiction of death I've ever seen on a television show.

The episode was almost flawless. I felt the sudden vampire rising in the morgue at the end took us too much out of the story. I get the point they were trying to make, that you have to deal with the same old shit at the most impossible times, but it broke the realism of that moment. Without it I feel like the episode would have worked as its own perfectly contained universe completely devoid of context.

Totally draining, but definitely worth it. So glad we did not watch that right before bed.

[silenus]

That's the one episode I can never re-watch. Too powerful.

Thank you to everybody posting to this thread for not even hinting about it. The above post means it was a successful episode.

[Lakai]

The episode was almost flawless. I felt the sudden vampire rising in the morgue at the end took us too much out of the story. I get the point they were trying to make, that you have to deal with the same old shit at the most impossible times, but it broke the realism of that moment. Without it I feel like the episode would have worked as its own perfectly contained universe completely devoid of context.


I thought they were trying to juxtapose fake death (vampire) with real death (Joyce). Just a reminder to the audience how much real death is different from the vampires on the show.

Silenus, I'm also glad no one said anything about Dawn. Olives had the right reaction when she was introduced.

[olivesmarch4th]

Thank you to everybody posting to this thread for not even hinting about it. The above post means it was a successful episode.
Emphasizing this because I do appreciate. Didn't even see it coming, even a little bit.

In fact, today, before watching the episode, I made this post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12698629&postcount=72) in another thread, in the most innocuous way possible.

Sr. Olives and I were discussing the possibility of Joyce's death when the whole brain tumor thing both started. I said, ''If she does die, it will probably happen in Season 6 because the Dopers told me that's a really bleak season.'' I mean what's so brilliant about it is that you spend the first half of the season wondering if she's going to die, and then when you've decided she's not going to, she just dies and you never see it coming.

I have just decided to report this post and request a moderator change the thread title to ''Progressive unboxed spoilers'' or something similar to reflect the fact that we have major spoilers through the middle of Season 5. I would hate for someone to wander in here innocently and have any of the events spoiled.

[pepperlandgirl]

For me, the saddest moment in The Body is actually the end of I Was Made to Love You. Buffy, in her compassion, sits with a "dying" robot while her mother is dying/dead at home.

[olivesmarch4th]

For me, the saddest moment in The Body is actually the end of I Was Made to Love You. Buffy, in her compassion, sits with a "dying" robot while her mother is dying/dead at home.
Ugh, I never thought about it that way.

But the ending of that episode is definitely sad.

''Mom? Mom! ...Mommy?'' :(

[silenus]

Just the thought of that line makes my wife tear up. I know, I just was talking to her about this thread.

[Ellis Dee]

I felt the sudden vampire rising in the morgue at the end took us too much out of the story. I get the point they were trying to make, that you have to deal with the same old shit at the most impossible times, but it broke the realism of that moment. Without it I feel like the episode would have worked as its own perfectly contained universe completely devoid of context.
I thought they were trying to juxtapose fake death (vampire) with real death (Joyce). Just a reminder to the audience how much real death is different from the vampires on the show.
I thought the vampire rising at the end conveyed the actual horror of the dead rising. Up to this point in the show, it's mostly played for laughs, isn't it? Waiting in the cemetary while some hapless vampire tries to crawl out of a grave only to be staked as soon as he reaches moonlight, ha ha, what a buffoon. This vampire really hit me with the emotional horror of what that reality would really be.

Later in season 7 (no spoiler) I believe Buffy and friends hid out in coffins at a funeral home waiting for it close up so they could dust some random vamp that had nothing to do with the story. As per usual, that entire scene is played for laughs. (And it is pretty funny.) But in the context of what we saw at the end of The Body, the reality of that plan is horrifying.

I'm not saying this is what everyone else should see or even what the writers intended. It's just what I took from it.

On an unrelated note, Logo wrapped around and played almost all season 1 this week. It was tough slogging through it, but one thing that struck me quite a bit: (Major spoiler through the end of the 3rd episode of season 6.)In Nightmares, one of Buffy's worst nightmares realized was being buried alive. She then woke up a vampire and they focused on that, but the segment before they went to commerical with her screaming in the grave as the Master buried her alive. Probably not intentional, but it offered more context for how psychologically devastating it would be for her to be yanked out of heaven and wake up in a coffin, buried alive.

[olivesmarch4th]

Oh, and another thing about ''The Body'' -- first on-screen Willow/Tara kiss. I like that it was just a normalized thing for comfort and intimacy rather than some kind of sexually charged makeout session.

And a question I've been meaning to ask for a while. If it's not too spoily, what is a 'shipper? I've seen that term used a lot in this thread.

[Nothar]

'Shipper is shorthand for someone who "ships" a certain relationship on a show. Meaning they want to see 2 specific characters in a romantic relationship or loved it when those characters were in a relationship. This sometimes accompanies a mashup combined name for the couple such as "Bangel", for Buffy + Angel. So when someone says they ship Bangel it means they loved the Buffy and Angel relationship above any other relationship one or both of the characters ever had.

[bouv]

A 'shipper' is a t erm used to refer to people (generally on internet message boards) who want certain characters to hook up/date/keep dating.

So if someone was a Spike/Buffy shipper, they'd want Buffy to start dating Spike. A Riley/Buffy shipper would want Riley to come back to Buffy. If someone was a Tara/Willow shipper, they'd be all happy that they are together. Those are the normal ones. There are weirder ones where people "ship" characters that don't make sense, usually because it makes straight people gay...there are some shipper that also make the gay people straight, but they always seem outnumbered by the ones wanting two straight dudes to start making out. Things like Xander/Riley, Spike/Angel, etc...these are more or less just things people have in their heads/their bad fan-fiction, they know it's not something that will ever be in the show. Just something to talk and argue about with other shippers.

Oh, and it's not just a Buffy thing, there are shippers for pretty much every popular show.

[olivesmarch4th]

Thanks!

[silenus]

Then there were the Shipper Wars. Bad times, those. Thousands of lives lost, millions in collateral damage, and the environment still hasn't recovered. The Creator plays with us, as a cruel child tortures insects for fun, with total disregard for anything we might be feeling.

[olivesmarch4th]

Oh, and while I'm on a question kick, there are also references in this thread to a crazy lady writer with relationship problems who eventually got fired/left the show? What's that all about? Did that drama have any appreciable impact on the actual content of the show?

Also, I recently found out a fun fact: Adam Shankman (the SYTYCD guy) did choreography for Buffy. I assume combat choreography, but not sure.

[Justin_Bailey]

Oh, and while I'm on a question kick, there are also references in this thread to a crazy lady writer with relationship problems who eventually got fired/left the show? What's that all about? Did that drama have any appreciable impact on the actual content of the show?

Yes. Her name is Marti "The Toxin" Noxon and you will learn about her wicked ways (and how they made the show really crappy) in season six.

You have been warned.

[silenus]

Marti Noxon. You don't get the full force of Marti's psychosis until Season 6. Does this have an impact on the show? Is the Hulk green?

By Season 6, Joss was busy with other projects and left the everyday running of the show to people like Marti. Things went Dixie real fast. Her episodes were always full of angst anyway, and her influence on the other writers made that season a mess. I blame her for "Seeing Red," not Steven DeKnight, who wrote it.

Sad, that, because before her descent into the Pit, Marti wrote some damned good episodes ("The Wish", "The Prom", "Surprise").

[Mahaloth]

Yes. Her name is Marti "The Toxin" Noxon and you will learn about her wicked ways (and how they made the show really crappy) in season six.

You have been warned.

Wait, she had relationship problems and got fired?

[Justin_Bailey]

Wait, she had relationship problems and got fired?

Sort of. She told a reporter she went through a string of bad (and a few abusive) boyfriends in college and brought those experiences to season six.

She wasn't fired, but her role in season seven was definitely reduced. She only ended up writing two of the season's episodes, the fewest she write during her Buffy tenure.

[silenus]

She was Executive Producer of BtVS Seasons 6 & 7, then went on to other projects. Many of which she left for "creative differences."

[Mauvaise]

Ugh, I never thought about it that way.

But the ending of that episode is definitely sad.

''Mom? Mom! ...Mommy?'' :(

The Body's original air date, according to IMDB is 27 February 2001. My own mother's early death at age 53 was 17 February 2000. That episode absolutely gutted me.

[Mauvaise]

Yes. Her name is Marti "The Toxin" Noxon and you will learn about her wicked ways (and how they made the show really crappy) in season six.

You have been warned.

To counter that warning, I loved Season 6. And I am not alone.

[Justin_Bailey]

To counter that warning, I loved Season 6. And I am not alone.

But you are in the minority.

WARNED... you have been.

[olivesmarch4th]

To counter that warning, I loved Season 6. And I am not alone.
I think I will love it too. I think it was lissener who said the major criticism of that season is that it's too dark and serious. I don't mind. And I think that's the season with ''Normal Again'' which is supposed to be really subversive. I love subversive. I see no harm in cautious optimism (but hell, I'm still in the middle of Season 5, so we'll cross that bridge when we get there.)

Sorry about your Mom. It's a universal thing, death, but it touches everyone differently. I hope the episode was at least somewhat validating.

[Mahaloth]

She was Executive Producer of BtVS Seasons 6 & 7, then went on to other projects. Many of which she left for "creative differences."

I see. I see Prison Break and Brothers and Sisters listed as shows she left for creative differences.

I had no idea she'd had such trouble. Did she ever work on Firefly or Dollhouse?

[silenus]

Not that I know of.

Season Six is like the little girl with the curl.

[Waffle Decider]

I don't get the hate for season 6 either. It has some brilliant episodes. It got a little dark, and I think the analogy thing they did was lame, and sometimes I also get the urge to beat the crap out of someone for what they did towards the end. However, taken as a whole, I don't think it's as bad as it's been made out to be.

[pepperlandgirl]

A 'shipper' is a t erm used to refer to people (generally on internet message boards) who want certain characters to hook up/date/keep dating.

So if someone was a Spike/Buffy shipper, they'd want Buffy to start dating Spike. A Riley/Buffy shipper would want Riley to come back to Buffy. If someone was a Tara/Willow shipper, they'd be all happy that they are together. Those are the normal ones. There are weirder ones where people "ship" characters that don't make sense, usually because it makes straight people gay...there are some shipper that also make the gay people straight, but they always seem outnumbered by the ones wanting two straight dudes to start making out. Things like Xander/Riley, Spike/Angel, etc...these are more or less just things people have in their heads/their bad fan-fiction, they know it's not something that will ever be in the show. Just something to talk and argue about with other shippers.

Oh, and it's not just a Buffy thing, there are shippers for pretty much every popular show.

Minor, minor spoilers for the bolded pairing.

Spike/Angel is officially canon. You might still think it's nothing more than bad fanfic, but this Spike/Angel shipper is quite happy to get the Joss Whedon seal of approval!

I really miss the Ship Wars sometimes. They were a lot of fun. *sigh*

[Tanbarkie]

Spoilers for Season 6 below:

Season 6's weakness isn't darkness - it's inconsistency. For the first time in Buffy's run, you have characters acting in ways that don't make sense given what we know about them (or in some particularly bad cases, just learned about them). For example, Buffy and Spike seem to reach some level of begrudging rapprochement several times during the season (crazy sex aside), hinting at a renewal of the respect Spike earned at the end of Season 5... but then the very next episode, they're back to spitting hate at each other for no apparent reason.

The schizophrenia of an unhealthy relationship is something that could have been very interesting to explore, and there are times when Season 6 does so effectively. But you need to show why the characters are acting bipolar. Hitting the character reset button at the end of each episode (despite the characters supposedly reaching some sort of important epiphany) just confuses and frustrates the audience. It's bad, lazy writing, and a show like "Buffy" should be above that sort of thing.

I have no problem with the overarching arc of Season 6, and there are some true gems amongst the dreck. But too often, Noxon et al. have the characters undergo what should be life-altering decisions or situations, only to completely ignore the subsequent fallout in favor of more angsty plot twists.

[Justin_Bailey]

Snipped opinion about season 6

That is a pretty accurate, well-reasoned explanation for why season six blows the goat ass. There are some pretty great moments (well, a couple anyway), but as a whole the season just doesn't do it for me.

And to this day I still blame Marti Noxon.

[silenus]

As well you should.

The traffic cop should have shot her.

[Angel of the Lord]

Spoilers for Season 6 below:

Season 6's weakness isn't darkness - it's inconsistency. For the first time in Buffy's run, you have characters acting in ways that don't make sense given what we know about them (or in some particularly bad cases, just learned about them). For example, Buffy and Spike seem to reach some level of begrudging rapprochement several times during the season (crazy sex aside), hinting at a renewal of the respect Spike earned at the end of Season 5... but then the very next episode, they're back to spitting hate at each other for no apparent reason.

The schizophrenia of an unhealthy relationship is something that could have been very interesting to explore, and there are times when Season 6 does so effectively. But you need to show why the characters are acting bipolar. Hitting the character reset button at the end of each episode (despite the characters supposedly reaching some sort of important epiphany) just confuses and frustrates the audience. It's bad, lazy writing, and a show like "Buffy" should be above that sort of thing.

I have no problem with the overarching arc of Season 6, and there are some true gems amongst the dreck. But too often, Noxon et al. have the characters undergo what should be life-altering decisions or situations, only to completely ignore the subsequent fallout in favor of more angsty plot twists.


I think that this really applies to the other much-maligned subplot of Season Six--namely, the magic addiction. In the beginning, they seemed to be very much on track to frame Willow's addiction to magic as being psychological in nature. It was addictive in that it allowed her to get whatever she wanted--she got to bring her friend back from the dead, after all, with no thought about whether she should or shouldn't. She began using magic for mundane tasks--decorating for a party, for instance. When called on it, she used magic to try to fix her significant other to her liking. And then, when she was called on that, she did the exact same thing. She took the easy way out instead of trying to put in the work or taking her lumps.

This was an insightful character arc. The thing is, in the very next freaking episode, they decided that, nope, magic was addictive like drugs were addictive. And you could get high from it. And it was sold in sleazy, hidden flophouses by dealers who look like Willem Dafoe. And the only solution was to stop using it altogether. No trying to use it responsibly--cold turkey was the way to go.

I think this pissed a lot of people off, because it was really heavy-handed, and, more importantly, completely inconsistent with where they seemed to have been going with it. Then, at the end of the season, they did the following:

1.) Had Tara going back to Willow for no real reason except that she hadn't been using magic. This despite the fact that the issues they were having had far more to do about control, and less to do with magic. They then immediately killed her off. So, basically, they brought her back to be killed. This left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

2.) When Willow went all bad-magic-mojo-mama, it was back in the vein of her trying to use magic to fix things to her liking, albeit on a much more dramatic scale. It wasn't the drugs metaphor that they'd been drumming from midseason on. And this wouldn't have been so bad if it were only reflecting some kind of misjudgement that the characters had made. . .but it wasn't. It was reflecting the Super!Obvious!Metaphor! they'd foisted upon us with characters that they'd invented.

Basically, if they'd cut out the whole of the middle chunk of that arc, it would've been a hell of a lot better. As it was, they addressed it a bit in season seven, but that season had its own problems.

[gonzoron]

First off, I'm also in the minority that loved season six. Join us, won't you? ;)

Second, Spoilers for the 7th episode of Season 6

Olives, by now you've seen Once More with Feeling. Now think back to your comment Re: Adam Shankman, and all is clear.

to all the already spoiled: good job keeping The Body a surprise. Let's try to do the same with OMw/F as well! I can't imagine how awesome it would've been to see Buffy burst into song with no warning. Sadly, I knew it was coming when I saw it first.

[gonzoron]

That's what I think is extraordinary about this episode -- there's a role for everyone to recognize themselves in.precisely, I love, love, love the whole scene at Willow & Tara's place from start to finish for that reason. Particularly Willow's bit about none of her clothes being grown up enough. that's where I saw myself.

The sound of her ribs cracking and everything, it was just too real.heightened by the complete lack of music, of course. (Not sure if you noticed or not. My first time, I knew something was odd, but couldn't quite put my finger on it.


Probably the most realistic depiction of death I've ever seen on a television show.Indeed, and sadly, completely ignored at Emmy time, IIRC. Great acting from the entire cast, too, even Sara Michelle Gellar, who I normally saw as just competent. But here, I thought she rose to the occasion and was incredible. Up to this point, the only other time I had thought that was when she played Faith in Buffy's body back in season 4. In the end I decided that meant it wasn't her fault, but that Buffy herself never was written with as many great "acting showcase moments" as the rest of the cast. Given the right material, she can be really, really great.

I mean what's so brilliant about it is that you spend the first half of the season wondering if she's going to die, and then when you've decided she's not going to, she just dies and you never see it coming.Yup, one of my fave quotes from the episode is Buffy and Tara's exchange...

Buffy: Was it sudden?
Tara: What?
Buffy: Your mother.
Tara: No. And yes. It's always sudden.

[Tanbarkie]

I think that this really applies to the other much-maligned subplot of Season Six--namely, the magic addiction. In the beginning, they seemed to be very much on track to frame Willow's addiction to magic as being psychological in nature. It was addictive in that it allowed her to get whatever she wanted--she got to bring her friend back from the dead, after all, with no thought about whether she should or shouldn't. She began using magic for mundane tasks--decorating for a party, for instance. When called on it, she used magic to try to fix her significant other to her liking. And then, when she was called on that, she did the exact same thing. She took the easy way out instead of trying to put in the work or taking her lumps.

This was an insightful character arc. The thing is, in the very next freaking episode, they decided that, nope, magic was addictive like drugs were addictive. And you could get high from it. And it was sold in sleazy, hidden flophouses by dealers who look like Willem Dafoe. And the only solution was to stop using it altogether. No trying to use it responsibly--cold turkey was the way to go.

I think this pissed a lot of people off, because it was really heavy-handed, and, more importantly, completely inconsistent with where they seemed to have been going with it. Then, at the end of the season, they did the following:

1.) Had Tara going back to Willow for no real reason except that she hadn't been using magic. This despite the fact that the issues they were having had far more to do about control, and less to do with magic. They then immediately killed her off. So, basically, they brought her back to be killed. This left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

2.) When Willow went all bad-magic-mojo-mama, it was back in the vein of her trying to use magic to fix things to her liking, albeit on a much more dramatic scale. It wasn't the drugs metaphor that they'd been drumming from midseason on. And this wouldn't have been so bad if it were only reflecting some kind of misjudgement that the characters had made. . .but it wasn't. It was reflecting the Super!Obvious!Metaphor! they'd foisted upon us with characters that they'd invented.

Basically, if they'd cut out the whole of the middle chunk of that arc, it would've been a hell of a lot better. As it was, they addressed it a bit in season seven, but that season had its own problems.

Yes! Exactly!

I was very excited about Season 6 after watching "Tabula Rasa" for the first time. IIRC, I actually told one of my friends (the one that had gotten me to watch Buffy in the first place), "I don't get why you hate on Season 6 so much. So far, it's my favorite season yet."

Within two episodes after that, I knew why. Oh God, how I knew why.

The Willow "drugs... I mean, magicKS.... are bad, m'kay???" subplot is easily my least favorite Buffyverse story arc. It's hackneyed, unimaginative, beat-you-over-the-head crap that completely subverts what had the potential to be a very interesting story. And it's a perfect example of the inconsistency issue that plagues Season 6.

[bouv]

I'm trying to recall...they don't ever say what Tara's mom died of, do they? Her at first saying it wasn't sudden makes me think something slow, like cancer, but then we know from season 4 she has a family that lies to keep control over the women, so do we think it was abuse?

There's a lot of interesting backstory to Tara that was only ever hinted at that we'll never get to see.

[Ephemera]

I am pretty sure it's never really mentioned. You never get to know much about anyone's biological family except Buffy's and, to a MUCH smaller degree, Xander's.

[silenus]

Not even Buffy's. Her mother was a character because she was a high school student when it all started. Does she have any cousins? What's her dad's new girlfriend like? What about Buffy's grandparents? We knew more about Tara's family than we did Willow's. We saw Willow's mom once, and Tara's dad once. Heck, we saw more of Xander's family than we ever did of Buffy's.

[Waffle Decider]

I strongly suspect sexual abuse was rampant in Tara's family. She sure acted weird when they came in town, especially around her brother.

Does anyone know what did Anya do for money and stuff before she got her job at the Magic Box in season 5? Did she have her own place before she shacked up with Xander?

[Ephemera]

Dawn was a full billed character, and Joyce was recurring. We met Xander's parents once, just like Willow's mom, and Tara's extended family. We met more of them, but we didn't know them as well.

Buffy was about her found family, not her biological family. Her friends and Giles obviously mean more to her than anything but Joyce and Dawn.

I strongly suspect sexual abuse was rampant in Tara's family. She sure acted weird when they came in town, especially around her brother.

Does anyone know what did Anya do for money and stuff before she got her job at the Magic Box in season 5? Did she have her own place before she shacked up with Xander?

She had her own place, but we don't know anything about it. In Buffy vs. Dracula, she goes home instead of going to Xander's because it's laundry night and she doesn't like the smell of bleach or something like that.

[silenus]

It was never stated. She had to live somewhere, of course. But until she and Xander shacked up it was never mentioned.

[Mahaloth]

Oh, put me in the "I like season 6" group as well. I think it's way overbashed.

[Knorf]

Oh, put me in the "I like season 6" group as well. I think it's way overbashed.

Totally agree.

[Ephemera]

I started a poll (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=571471). olives, you should probably stay out of the thread because I don't expect people there to be as good about avoiding spoiling you.

[pricciar]

Yeah. I love season 6. I didn't realize how maligned it was until this thread was started. This is the second time in the course of this thread that it has come under heavy fire. It really brings emotions high.

And, I don't know from Marti Noxon. But, if someone has creative differences that force them out of Prison Break and Sisters and Brothers only to then land on Mad Men, where they win an emmy, it's pretty clear which side was right in those particular bouts of creativity.
Joss Whedon must still be friendly with her to use her in a cameo role in Dr Horrible's Sing A Long Blog.

[pepperlandgirl]

Yeah. I love season 6. I didn't realize how maligned it was until this thread was started. This is the second time in the course of this thread that it has come under heavy fire. It really brings emotions high.

And, I don't know from Marti Noxon. But, if someone has creative differences that force them out of Prison Break and Sisters and Brothers only to then land on Mad Men, where they win an emmy, it's pretty clear which side was right in those particular bouts of creativity.
Joss Whedon must still be friendly with her to use her in a cameo role in Dr Horrible's Sing A Long Blog.

All of the gossip of creative differences and tensions in the writing room was nothing more than that--gossip. It was all generated in the fandom when feelings were running high. S6 was not well liked when it aired, and the way the Internet works, even people who weren't involved directly in the BtVS fandom would have been aware of these rumors. But they were never anything other than that, and neither Joss nor Noxon have ever indicated that they had any problem with each other whatsoever.

[silenus]

Joss and Marti got along fine. That was never an issue. What's at issue is that she's a raving psychotic who worked out her issues with men by fucking with Buffy. May she rot for it, too.

[Ellis Dee]

I think that's just silly hyperbole, along with the detailed complaints in spoiler boxes. Then again, I have been one of the more vocal supporters of season 6 this whole thread, so no surprise there.

Oh and two off-topic things: One, I'm so happy that spoiler boxes no longer display as white text on dark background, as that made my eyes bleed. And two, coding an entire conversation inside a spoiler box works better than I thought it might.
Season 6's weakness isn't darkness - it's inconsistency. For the first time in Buffy's run, you have characters acting in ways that don't make sense given what we know about them (or in some particularly bad cases, just learned about them). For example, Buffy and Spike seem to reach some level of begrudging rapprochement several times during the season (crazy sex aside), hinting at a renewal of the respect Spike earned at the end of Season 5... but then the very next episode, they're back to spitting hate at each other for no apparent reason.
I don't see how you can say there's no reason. Buffy clearly stated the reason: she was disgusted with herself for sleeping with an evil monster, and ashamed for using him. (Like a drug!)

The schizophrenia of an unhealthy relationship is something that could have been very interesting to explore, and there are times when Season 6 does so effectively. But you need to show why the characters are acting bipolar. Hitting the character reset button at the end of each episode (despite the characters supposedly reaching some sort of important epiphany) just confuses and frustrates the audience. It's bad, lazy writing, and a show like "Buffy" should be above that sort of thing.
I never saw any evidence of this reset button. Could you point to an example or two? They must be pretty bad for this to be the reason the season as a whole was so horrible. IMO, they explained very clearly, very slowly, and repeatedly why Buffy was acting so "bipolar."

I think that this really applies to the other much-maligned subplot of Season Six--namely, the magic addiction. In the beginning, they seemed to be very much on track to frame Willow's addiction to magic as being psychological in nature. It was addictive in that it allowed her to get whatever she wanted--she got to bring her friend back from the dead, after all, with no thought about whether she should or shouldn't. She began using magic for mundane tasks--decorating for a party, for instance. When called on it, she used magic to try to fix her significant other to her liking. And then, when she was called on that, she did the exact same thing. She took the easy way out instead of trying to put in the work or taking her lumps.

This was an insightful character arc. The thing is, in the very next freaking episode, they decided that, nope, magic was addictive like drugs were addictive.
[...]
I think this pissed a lot of people off, because it was really heavy-handed, and, more importantly, completely inconsistent with where they seemed to have been going with it.The earlier, purely psychological addiction is in no way different from an addiction to drugs. That's how drug addiction works: start psychologically, become physical. I'm not understanding this complaint, but I could be just missing the underlying point. Could you clarify? As I see it, it was the exact opposite of inconsistent in the sense that it ended up following the same natural progression as any physical addiction.

I'm also not understanding your numbered bullet-point complaints. They make no sense to me, but not in the context of I think they're stupid or anything. I actually do not understand them. Could you rephrase them so I could try to understand?

[BigT]

You guys describe shipping, but you forget to tell her that it was originally short for relationship? It just got converted into a verb. Someone who wanted a romantic relationship between Spock and Kirk wanted a Spock/Kirk ship, and thus wanted to ship Kirk and Spock. So they became shippers.

(I use Kirk/Spock [usually called K/S] because it is the earliest one I've heard of.)

[BigT]

The earlier, purely psychological addiction is in no way different from an addiction to drugs. That's how drug addiction works: start psychologically, become physical. I'm not understanding this complaint, but I could be just missing the underlying point. Could you clarify? As I see it, it was the exact opposite of inconsistent in the sense that it ended up following the same natural progression as any physical addiction.

I'm also not understanding your numbered bullet-point complaints. They make no sense to me, but not in the context of I think they're stupid or anything. I actually do not understand them. Could you rephrase them so I could try to understand?


That's because you rejected his original complaint, which his subpoints depend on. I also think your like for the season is coloring your perceptions.

As proof, I, who have already admitted to not watching Buffy, understood it perfectly. The magic=drug abuse thing is inconsistent. For five years, it was portrayed as a merely psychological addiction. I know of no drug that takes five years for it to switch, and definitely none where it just suddenly happens. According to AotL, they just suddenly switched it in the span of one or two episodes. No episodes before this made you even question whether it was actually a physical dependency. That's an inconsistency.

His two bullet points therefore refer to how it became so important that the magic use was the only thing Tara broke up with Willow for (when other reasons were established already.) And that, once Willow starts using magic again, apparently it isn't a drug, thus negating everything they did in that plot arc.

IF this information is accurate, whether I liked the season or not, I would have to agree with AotL. It's inconsistent, and inconsistencies will turn people off.

[Ellis Dee]

The magic=drug abuse thing is inconsistent. For five years, it was portrayed as a merely psychological addiction. I know of no drug that takes five years for it to switch, and definitely none where it just suddenly happens. According to AotL, they just suddenly switched it in the span of one or two episodes. No episodes before this made you even question whether it was actually a physical dependency. That's an inconsistency.

His two bullet points therefore refer to how it became so important that the magic use was the only thing Tara broke up with Willow for (when other reasons were established already.) And that, once Willow starts using magic again, apparently it isn't a drug, thus negating everything they did in that plot arc.

IF this information is accurate, whether I liked the season or not, I would have to agree with AotL. It's inconsistent, and inconsistencies will turn people off.I'm not seeing it. It wasn't "shown as psychologically addicting for five seasons and then suddenly switched."

Late in season 5 Tara starting voicing her discomfort at Willow's power. Early in season 6 Tara started worrying about Willow using too much magic to do too many things. Even small stuff (like getting dressed or cleaning up) Willow would use magic for instead of actually physically doing them. In real world addiction, not doing the small stuff is a big red flag. I've heard it referred to as ADL, "Adult Daily Living." Bathing, shaving, taking care of yourself in general. These go out the window for an addict. If Willow wasn't bothering to actually take care of herself, but instead using magic to avoid her ADLs, then yeah, that would be a legitimate addiction concern.

Also, it didn't suddenly become physically addictive. It was simply a matter of when she finally stopped, she suddenly had to deal with withdrawal symptoms. Like how it works in real life.

It is revealed later that Willow's overuse of magic allowed the First Evil to gain a hold on her. It would be in character for Tara to intuitively understand something bad like this was going on. If so, then it is perfectly consistent for Tara to take her back after she stopped using magic. I mean, it's lke saying "she took back her alcoholic husband just because he stopped drinking." A complaint like that makes no sense to me.

Also, it never became not like a drug. This is a bizarre complaint. What the writers did is made it so that the magic became an unremoveable part of her. It would be like an alcoholic in recovery who had to tote around a 20 proof IV drip 24/7. How would you deal with that? That's what the season 7 Willow arc was about.

[Miller]

Regarding season 6:

Angel of the Lord gives a really good description of the problem with the inconsistent way they were using magic as a metaphor within season six, but I think the main problem wasn't within the season itself, but in the larger context of the series. Because in season five, magic was a metaphor for Willow and Tara's relationship. Suddenly, magic is crack cocaine. This caused some pretty major dissonance. If drugs are bad, and magic is like drugs, and magic is also like being a lesbian, does it then follow that being a lesbian is bad? Obviously, that's not the message they wanted to send, but it's really hard not to read it anyway. It puts a real strange twist on all those scenes from season five where Willow and Tara would cast a spell and then look at each other all flushed and breathless, too. First time around, I read that as a metaphor for them having sex. Apparently, I should have viewed it as a metaphor for them sharing a needle.

[Mahaloth]

You guys describe shipping, but you forget to tell her that it was originally short for relationship? It just got converted into a verb. Someone who wanted a romantic relationship between Spock and Kirk wanted a Spock/Kirk ship, and thus wanted to ship Kirk and Spock. So they became shippers.

(I use Kirk/Spock [usually called K/S] because it is the earliest one I've heard of.)

Yeah, basically Kirk/Spock is early, but another common one is actually Hawkeye/Margaret shippers on MASH fansites. They write about how those two eventually "hooked up".

[Zsofia]

Joss and Marti got along fine. That was never an issue. What's at issue is that she's a raving psychotic who worked out her issues with men by fucking with Buffy. May she rot for it, too.
Oh, but it's fine for Joss to put his daddy issues out there for all the world to wince at? The both of them could do with some judicious outside editing, if you want my opinion. "Oh look, I bet it's a Bad Dad!"

[Angel of the Lord]

Season six spoilers ahoy!

I'm not seeing it. It wasn't "shown as psychologically addicting for five seasons and then suddenly switched."

Late in season 5 Tara starting voicing her discomfort at Willow's power. Early in season 6 Tara started worrying about Willow using too much magic to do too many things. Even small stuff (like getting dressed or cleaning up) Willow would use magic for instead of actually physically doing them. In real world addiction, not doing the small stuff is a big red flag. I've heard it referred to as ADL, "Adult Daily Living." Bathing, shaving, taking care of yourself in general. These go out the window for an addict. If Willow wasn't bothering to actually take care of herself, but instead using magic to avoid her ADLs, then yeah, that would be a legitimate addiction concern.

Also, it didn't suddenly become physically addictive. It was simply a matter of when she finally stopped, she suddenly had to deal with withdrawal symptoms. Like how it works in real life.

The thing is, to the best of my recollection, they never showed magic as getting you high. Would it let the power go to your head? Yes. Would it make you feel empowered, maybe better than everyone else? Yes. Would it potentially lead somewhere very dark? Yes.

Would it make you lie there stoned for hours and twirl around like an idiot? Not so much. The magic was psychologically addictive because it empowered Willow; it never seemed escapist in any way. Her biggest abuses of magic weren't done to get high; they were to fix specific problems in a rash and impulsive manner (an empowerment spell when she and Oz broke up; going after Glory; bringing Buffy back; messing with Tara's head). Now, while it's possible that one could lead to another, I don't think that they justified it enough to have it progress that quickly. Her problem was all with power corrupting, not about the weakness of the flesh.

It is revealed later that Willow's overuse of magic allowed the First Evil to gain a hold on her. It would be in character for Tara to intuitively understand something bad like this was going on. If so, then it is perfectly consistent for Tara to take her back after she stopped using magic. I mean, it's lke saying "she took back her alcoholic husband just because he stopped drinking." A complaint like that makes no sense to me.

Except that it wasn't just that she was using magic; it's that she was attempting to mess with Tara's head. In "Tabula Rasa," even after Willow promises no more magic, Tara still seems pretty uncertain about staying. It seemed to me to be more the abuse angle. And while I don't think that the issues with their relationship were insurmountable, I think they rushed the reconciliation in order to get her to the point of being shot.

As for Tara somehow sensing that the First Evil was getting a hold of her. . .well, you're right; Tara is very intuitive. However, I think that her problems stemmed more from her personal experience. In OMWF, she sings, "You know I've been through hell/Willow, don't you see/there'll be nothing left of me..." I think that her problems had far more to do with her history of abuse (both in her family and with Glory, though that wasn't a relationship) as they did with Willow's overuse of magic.

Also, it never became not like a drug. This is a bizarre complaint. What the writers did is made it so that the magic became an unremoveable part of her. It would be like an alcoholic in recovery who had to tote around a 20 proof IV drip 24/7. How would you deal with that? That's what the season 7 Willow arc was about.

See, I disagree; I think it was about learning to use power responsibly. And I think that if you keep it entirely about power corrupting, the season works much better. You can even keep the parallels with Spike and Buffy there, if you do it that way; rough sex can be about power, about feeling powerful or over-powered. But, instead, I think they went with the escapist angle. It worked fine for Buffy, but I think it didn't work at all for Willow. YMMV.

[silenus]

What, the writers went all Peter Parker with Willow? Not quite buying it. I think they saw too many After-School Specials growing up, and Marti's "write your psychosis" style of production encouraged them to make crappy decisions.

[Justin_Bailey]

Oh, but it's fine for Joss to put his daddy issues out there for all the world to wince at? The both of them could do with some judicious outside editing, if you want my opinion. "Oh look, I bet it's a Bad Dad!"

As far as I know, Joss and his father (who's also a TV writer) have a great relationship.

[Zsofia]

Well, for some reason every single dad in a Whedon show that I can think of off the top of my head (I have not seen Dollhouse) is a Bad Dad. It got downright ridiculous.

[Justin_Bailey]

Well, for some reason every single dad in a Whedon show that I can think of off the top of my head (I have not seen Dollhouse) is a Bad Dad. It got downright ridiculous.

If I remember right, no one's parents show up on Dollhouse. No fathers on Firefly either except for Simon and River's, and he wasn't a Bad Dad. Just one that didn't believe what he thought were Simon's drunken ramblings.

As for the other three shows, I think it's just the big city "My friends are my family" attitude that you see on nearly every TV show (for example, Friends). Making them evil just fits in well with the Buffyverse.

[Kyla]

You guys describe shipping, but you forget to tell her that it was originally short for relationship? It just got converted into a verb. Someone who wanted a romantic relationship between Spock and Kirk wanted a Spock/Kirk ship, and thus wanted to ship Kirk and Spock. So they became shippers.

(I use Kirk/Spock [usually called K/S] because it is the earliest one I've heard of.)

As far as I know, the term "shipping" actually originated in the X-Files fandom.

K/S, however, is the originator of the term slash.

I'm not just a nerd and in fandom, I'm actually a nerd about fandom.

btw, my own fandom has ship wars and they are SO FUCKING STUPID I hate it so much. Especially because both popular ships are...morally and ethically questionable, to say the least, and neither will ever, ever, ever in a million years be canon. (The shippers would be delighted if it was canon. Everyone else would be :eek::eek::eek:) And yet people devote many hours and much bandwidth to argue about which is "better". :rolleyes:

[pepperlandgirl]

If I remember right, no one's parents show up on Dollhouse. No fathers on Firefly either except for Simon and River's, and he wasn't a Bad Dad. Just one that didn't believe what he thought were Simon's drunken ramblings.

As for the other three shows, I think it's just the big city "My friends are my family" attitude that you see on nearly every TV show (for example, Friends). Making them evil just fits in well with the Buffyverse.

There were serious daddy!issues present in Dollhouse. A man doesn't have to be a biological father in order to be the father-figure in Whedon shows. In fact, the father figure who embodies most of the daddy issues is rarely the biological father, which only adds another layer to it all.

[Waffle Decider]

I guess Cordelia's dad was bad in the sense that he got caught cheating on his taxes. However, I don't think there's any indication that he was Bad in the sense that he abused or neglected his children.

[Waffle Decider]

Oh, and Fred's parents seemed pretty nice.

[Justin_Bailey]

There were serious daddy!issues present in Dollhouse. A man doesn't have to be a biological father in order to be the father-figure in Whedon shows. In fact, the father figure who embodies most of the daddy issues is rarely the biological father, which only adds another layer to it all.

What daddy issues were present in Dollhouse? I assume you're referring to...

Boyd and his eventual turn to the dark side.

But that doesn't make him a Bad Dad because his/her evilness comes so out of left field that it's just stupid.

[silenus]

Oh, and Fred's parents seemed pretty nice.


OTOH, in a world of "might-have-been":

Wesley's father was Mega-Evil.

[pepperlandgirl]

OTOH, in a world of "might-have-been":

Wesley's father was Mega-Evil.


What world of "might have been"? Wesley's father was a very, very shitty father. If there was an avatar of Whedon's daddy issues, it was Wesley. But it's silly to try to argue that the Whedonverse characters aren't rife with parental issues.

Angel had daddy issues. Buffy had daddy issues. Xander had daddy issues. Giles had daddy issues. Connor had daddy issues. Wesley and Buffy's respective daddy issues actually informed a great deal of their relationship with Angel (I'd argue was the very basis for their relationships with Angel). And the characters who didn't have serious daddy issues had serious issues with their mothers, at times bordering on Oedipal (Or as Angelus said, "Trying to kill your father and screw your mother? Somebody should write a play.") Spike and Faith were the ones with the biggest mommy issues.

[Miller]

Faith? When did that come up?

[silenus]

The world is rife with parent issues.

pepper - The might-have-been that we actually get an explanation for Daddy Wyndam-Pryce. What organization was he working for? Who else is an android? What is their nefarious scheme? Can Illyria kick their asses? You know, that stuff. :D

[Waffle Decider]

I agree that most of the characters in Whedonverse have some serious parental issues. I'm just trying to counter the assertion earlier that every single dad is a Bad Dad in Whedonverse.

[silenus]

Missed the edit window.

Miller - from Wiki: Petrie claims Faith's main motivation is to find a family and friends; she sees treacherous Watcher Gwendolyn Post as the mother she never had, the Scooby Gang as the friends she never had, and the Mayor as the father she never had. "So she's always looking for a family and always coming up short and making these horrible choices, and it drove her insane" says Petrie. "Plus I think she was missing a couple of screws to begin with. 'If you don't love me, you will fear me,' is kind of her m.o. She's not a stable girl, but a fun one."

Faith Lehane was one seriously fucked-up girl.

But her father-figure was nothing but loving, caring and supportive of her. :D

[pepperlandgirl]

The world is rife with parent issues.

pepper - The might-have-been that we actually get an explanation for Daddy Wyndam-Pryce. What organization was he working for? Who else is an android? What is their nefarious scheme? Can Illyria kick their asses? You know, that stuff. :D



Oh yeah, we never did find out what the robot thing was all about. I just meant that Roger Wyndam-Pryce was clearly a POS and the whole time he was being snide and dismissive of Wesley's life, Wes never once questioned his behavior. Even when he was put into a position to shoot and kill his own father, he never said "This is strange. My father would never do this." I also like that, when given the opportunity to kill his father, he emptied the gun into his chest. Wesley doesn't do shit by halves.

[olivesmarch4th]

I'm just trying to counter the assertion earlier that every single dad is a Bad Dad in Whedonverse.
I mean wouldn't Giles count as a good Dad? It's pretty clear that's the role he plays for Buffy.

[silenus]

But even Giles shafted Buffy when ordered to. For a while. ("Helpless" - Season 3, Episode 12)

[pepperlandgirl]

Spoilers re Giles S6-S7



I'd say Giles betrayed Buffy more than any other father figure in all of Whedon's show. First by leaving her when he knew of her abandonment issues, and then constantly questioning/undermining her in S7 when she was behaving like the leader and adult he had ostensibly wanted her to be.