Does your suffering X make you more or less sympathetic to others suffering X?

[jsgoddess]

For most of the things in my life that have caused me suffering or unhappiness, I feel a great deal of sympathy when I encounter others who are suffering the same thing. There's a special affinity because I've been there.

But there are a handful of things where I feel something more like "Yeah, welcome to the read world. Don't whine to me about it."

To use a common example, ex-addicts are sometimes very sympathetic to current addicts and sometimes completely unsympathetic. My husband quit smoking and lost all sympathy for smokers. I've (mostly) quit (most) caffeine, but I still have an enormous amount of sympathy for people who are hooked (mmm, delicious caffeine).

When do you have sympathy and when not? Is it harder to have sympathy when you feel it's under the person's control? Does your experience make you more or less likely to feel sympathy?

[tdn]

I think I usually have sympathy, but when the other person clings to an attitude of "That's reality, and there's nothing that anyone could ever do about it, ever", my patience grows thin and I tend to lose respect for him.

[Ellen Cherry]

This may sound harsh but I really don't mean it to be because I am a very sympathetic person. I have suffered several losses in my life. When I was 25, my father died at the age of 49. I lost my first child, following her heart surgery, when she was just 7 months old. I have suffered the pain of a marriage breakup and divorced my first husband.

So, I understand what it's like. I've 'been there' in all the situations above. I know how hard it is. Unbelievably so. And yet, I sometimes get a little impatient when I hear about people who can't seem to move on. I know at least two people who seem totally defined by the loss of their parent, which happened to both of them when they were in their late 40s. The first lost her mother, the second lost his father. Both suffered what I can only term nervous breakdowns; they couldn't cope. Years have passed and yet they still seem totally gripped by their grief.

As I say, I understand. I too have suffered. But at some point I just get impatient, as I say. You must move on. Your grief is not something rare and refined. Others have felt it too, and feel a little like by comparison, their suffering obviously wasn't as 'great' as yours.

Then I get all morbid with self-reproach and tell myself that not everyone is equipped to deal with life's trials as others. But you see what I'm saying, I hope.

[olivesmarch4th]

Then I get all morbid with self-reproach and tell myself that not everyone is equipped to deal with life's trials as others. But you see what I'm saying, I hope.
This is significant for me. I try to remember it.

I think my experiences have made me more sensitive to other people's suffering in general, regardless of whether it's a similar experience or not.

That said, they have also made me less sympathetic in a specific way -- in the sense that I no longer view that person as a helpless victim. I have had some really painful experiences in my life, and I've had some people, upon learning about these experiences, express shock that I have managed to become successful despite these challenges. I realize they intend this as a compliment, but underlying this sentiment is the belief that there are certain experiences that should just wreck you as a person. I call this the ''I can't believe you're not a crack whore!'' response.

The problem with the ''I can't believe you're not a crack whore!'' response is it undermines a person's ability to determine for one's self what that personal tragedy means in the context of one's life. People have a tendency to grade experiences on a ''bad'' to ''worse'' spectrum, but the reality is that someone's ''worse'' could be someone else's ''bad'' or vice-versa. People are just different.

So I have had some experiences that some people automatically assume are just awful, when really they weren't that big a deal to me. I have also had experiences that I found personally devastating that people want to minimize. Either way, I don't like being told what way I should feel about my own life, and I wouldn't want to do that to anyone else.

So if someone tells me a tragic tale, rather than assuming it was the worst experience ever, I kind of hold back to see how that person feels about what happened to them. Even if it's something obviously devastating -- surviving the Holocaust, being permanently disfigured, etc. -- I reserve judgment, because I have learned from experience that imagining experiencing something and actually experiencing it are two entirely different things. The former seems impossible to survive, whereas the latter is not only possible to survive, it is often endured, imbued with meaning, and overcome.

[Cat Whisperer]

That's a yes and a no for me too, jsgoddess. I know what people are going through, and I know how tough it is, but I also know that you have to do the work to feel better, and it is possible to feel better, so I feel sympathy to a point. If things are under someone's control, I think I do feel less sympathy; if you can make changes to make things better, I expect you to do so, rather than complaining that things aren't the way you want them.

[Ellen Cherry]

olives you articulated it much better than I could have. Thank you.

[irishgirl]

Suffering hyperemesis for 15 weeks of my pregnancy makes me much, much more sympathetic to other women in the same position. Until you have had constant daily nausea and daily vomiting for weeks on end I don't think you get how awful it is.

On the other hand- I have a wonky spine (mild spina bifida) and have constant daily back pain since I was a child. It flares up into sciatica type symptoms with numbness in my feet and shooting pains in my back and legs every so often if I overdo it. For me my back pain is just a part of life and I have never thought about letting it stop me doing anything. I have not so much sympathy for people who use a "bad back" as a reason to put their lives on hold.

So there you go- chronic nausea made me sympathetic, chronic pain, not so much.

[Stoid]

The older I get, the more I live, the more I am sympathetic to everyone, even when I haven't been exactly where they are. I have become sympathetic with people who are considered beyond sympathy, such as the drug addict ex-con who murdered the 16 year old daughter of someone I am only a degree of separation from. (gasps heard all around) Not to such a degree that I don't think that people who do terrible things shouldn't be held accountable, not to such a degree that I am without sympathy for the people who suffer from such acts. I just see the suffering on all sides. Had that man had a different life path, he would not have ended up with a life so small and dark and worthless that he could find himself killing a young girl for money.

My sympathy comes from the same place for everyone: we are all born fresh and new with the potential to be many things. We are all weak, in different ways, we all hurt, in different ways, we all struggle, we all fear, we all strive... life is not easy.

If you are born with a certain condition, be it spina bifida or psychopathy, you had no choice and that is your burden. It will make your life painful and difficult. If you are born with all your parts intact, both mental and physical, but you get less than ideal parenting from people who themselves are the product of less than perfect parenting, or life deals you some other blows...then that will make your life painful and difficult.

No matter how terrible someone's acts are, there is a human being in there who is suffering too.

How zen is that? But it's my real, organic, unbidden feelings.

Which is not to say that I am completely free of personal reactions to people whose life path has turned them into something I find objectionable, because I'm not. But that wasn't the question.

[SpoilerVirgin]

I think it depends a lot on whether you are still suffering, or whether you have overcome that particular obstacle. When you are in pain, or in a bad marriage, or addicted, you feel bad and can generally sympathize with others in the same position. But once you've overcome (or learned to live with) the pain, or gotten out of the bad marriage and rebuilt your life, or recovered from the addiction, you might still understand what it was like to be there, but you also see that there is a way out, so you have less sympathy for someone who is still stuck.

[Superhal]

No, I get less sympathetic because I've beaten it.

[Balthisar]

I grew up suffering from American-style poverty, and have no sympathy for the American poor. (I still have sympathy for people that are truly poor in other countries, though.)

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I've experienced the pain of X. Pain is inevitable.

I suffered from X too, but soon found that continued suffering was usually optional.

I'll empathize with others who also experience the pain of X, and also empathize with their suffering, up to a point.

Many people choose to extend their suffering for their own secondary gain.

[Cat Whisperer]

Stoid, I understand what you're saying about people acting badly because they have had bad things happen to them, but I'm not as likely to give them a free pass for their actions. They weren't responsible for what happened to them, but they are responsible for how they respond to it. There has to be some responsibility at some point, or we'd all just do whatever we felt like, whenever we felt like it, and claim that some incident or situation made us do it.

[Chickie]

What I find I have less sympathy for, in general, the older I get, is people who want sympathy from others for their suffering (whatever it be) all the while without showing the least get-go in fixing or ameliorating their problems. Like, the constantly-depressed who don't want to see a therapist, take medication, etc. I've been depressed, and I made an effort to get myself out of it. Hence, the "bask in my ennui" approach isn't something I can sympathize with.

I am in the relatively-fortunate position in life to have had very few major "sufferings". Probably the worst has been major weight-loss and a year+ now unemployed. Being unemployed for so long does, it so happens, make me incredibly unsympathetic to people whining about minor job issues. "The mid-morning glare from the windows in my corner office gives me a headache!" Grrrrrrrumble rumble-rumble... That being said, I'll probably have tons of sympathy for the long-unemployed, during recessions, for the rest of my life.

[elfkin477]

It depends entirely whether or not they're using X as an excuse for doing/not doing something. If they're all "I can't do anything about X and it's soooo terrible," but I've experienced it too and got past it, then no, I'm not going to be very sympathetic towards them. On the other hand, if they're trying to work though/out around whatever it is, then yes, I feel for them.

[Stoid]

Stoid, I understand what you're saying about people acting badly because they have had bad things happen to them, but I'm not as likely to give them a free pass for their actions. They weren't responsible for what happened to them, but they are responsible for how they respond to it. There has to be some responsibility at some point, or we'd all just do whatever we felt like, whenever we felt like it, and claim that some incident or situation made us do it.


Well, I think I was clearish about not looking at it as a reason to give anyone a "free pass". We have to take responsibility, and I think we have to try our best. But I also know intimately the very specific pain involved in having problems with self-control, which most people tend to dismiss.

I have fought with myself my whole life about self-control, and it wasn't until I really understood both that I really actually do have attention deficit disorder, and I really understood what that really meant, that I came to understand why I fight myself so much. And while I don't see it as a pass for whatever I want whenever I want it, it helps enormously to understand what it is so that I can deal with it, and it is also enormously helpful in taking the shame out of it.

I think people often have a terrible time improving themselves because they have so much shame tied up in their behavior that they can't bear to confront it in order to do whatever work is needed to address it. Contrary to widely (and bizarrely) held belief, shame is about the worse possible motivator for change.

And I also believe that the lack of sympathy many people feel for people who still struggle with things that they have themselves overcome has far more to do with how people feel about themselves than anyone else.

But then, that's true of nearly everything when it comes to emotional responses.

[BigT]

I tend to have more sympathy for people going through what I'm going through or worse, but less for what I perceive as easier than my dilemma. And even then it depends on circumstances, including whether I well or poorly of the person in general.

Oh, and shame, like guilt, is a good motivator--for small things. But both can overwhelm easily. Often, with a big problem, the first thing you have to do is get over your shame. But if you were completely shameless over an issue, you'd lose all motivation. And if you didn't even have shame for little things, you'd be an unrepentant, sociopathic asshole--at least, that's what I've found with every shameless person I've ever encountered.

Calling someone (or something) shameless isn't a compliment, remember.

[BigT]

Stoid, I understand what you're saying about people acting badly because they have had bad things happen to them, but I'm not as likely to give them a free pass for their actions. They weren't responsible for what happened to them, but they are responsible for how they respond to it. There has to be some responsibility at some point, or we'd all just do whatever we felt like, whenever we felt like it, and claim that some incident or situation made us do it.

That's the thing, though. Someone who doesn't know how to fix a problem, can't. It's silly not to feel sympathy for someone who hasn't learned what you've learned. And it's counterproductive to go around assigning blame.

Basically, why do you think you get to determine how responsible someone else is? I know I do it, too, but I can't find a good reason that isn't selfish. It seems I do it to avoid sympathy overload, and being able to handle my own life.

Also, it really, really bugs me when the inability to think you can do something is actually part of the disorder, like in depression or anxiety. And if your sympathy is so small that you start kicking them when they are down (as has happened often around here), I completely lose sympathy for you, because I can do so unselfishly.

Finally, I find that my sympathy is really, really limited when I'm going through something. It's like I have a limited amount of caring, and I'm having to use all of it to deal with what I'm doing. I've got so many worries in my life that, if I start, So, in that way, when I've actually finished dealing with things, my sympathy goes up.

[olivesmarch4th]

The older I get, the more I live, the more I am sympathetic to everyone, even when I haven't been exactly where they are. I have become sympathetic with people who are considered beyond sympathy, such as the drug addict ex-con who murdered the 16 year old daughter of someone I am only a degree of separation from. (gasps heard all around) Not to such a degree that I don't think that people who do terrible things shouldn't be held accountable, not to such a degree that I am without sympathy for the people who suffer from such acts. I just see the suffering on all sides. Had that man had a different life path, he would not have ended up with a life so small and dark and worthless that he could find himself killing a young girl for money.
Stoid, this is really beautifully put, and expresses very much how I feel too.

To me the more/less sympathy for X is a hard question, because I've always suffered from, some might argue, too much empathy. I'm one of those people who can become overwhelmed by others' suffering. I can't be in the same room with someone crying without crying myself.

There is one situation though in which I seem to lose all empathy. This is when people allow their experiences to make them bitter and start treating others badly, or people who take the attitude that their pain justifies their lack of empathy. I try to avoid people like this, because I can't give them any support. I consider them weak. And it's very much based on the dynamic jsgoddess mentions in the OP--if I've been to hell and back and held onto my compassion for others, goddammit you can too, and there's no excuse for your hate. I'm not the kind of person who hates, but my attitude toward people who say to others ''I've been through X before so suck it up and quit complaining'' are the closest I come to hate.

No, it doesn't make sense. I'm not entirely rational about this sort of thing.

[Sehmket]

This is going to sound terribly heartless, but I have very little sympathy for the chronically ill or disabled.

Let me explain...

My mother-in-law was diagnosed with MS when she was pregnant with her first child (my husband). Over the next few years, it was clarified into being of the Chronic Progressive type (Always there, always gets worse). She was given a 10-15 year life expectancy, and told that having more children would be a great strain on her body. She and my father-in-law had always planned on having three children. It was their plan, they wanted three kids. So, seeing as she's the most stubborn person I've ever met, she went ahead and had two more kids. They WERE a great strain on her body. She went to physical or occupational therapy (depending on what insurance was covering this year) a couple times a week, kept up with cutting-edge research, pushed her doctor to get her enrolled in experimental treatments, and basically did everything she could to fight.

Since I've known her (going on 11 years now), she was already a couple years past that original 10-15 year life expectancy thing. She's a fully-certified quadriplegic (which doesn't mean she can't move her arms at all, it's just very difficult - she can feed herself about half the time), has some serious mobility issues, and the MS (and medications) has caused her to have some foggy memories and thought processes sometimes. However, she still makes it a point to get out of the house several times a week, to call friends and relatives (constantly!), to keep up with the news and her favorite TV shows, and basically live life as "normally" as possible. That's not to say she's happy all the time - she goes through pretty normal ups and downs related to her illness, and she once confided in my husband that she's occasionally considered suicide because she hates being a burden on the family, but decided against it (She's a very devout Catholic, so for her to admit that means she was pretty serious), and she's gotten pretty frustrated a couple times in restaurants when she's having trouble gripping a fork or whatever.

But, despite all that, she keeps going out, and trying to live life to its fullest. She went on a cruise in the Carribian last year, and is now saving up for an Alaskan one. She delights in meddling in her children's lives, and has a large social network.

So, where the lack of sympathy comes in is when I see my friends talk about their relatives who have medical problems that "prevent" them from doing things, like going out to the store or the theater. If my mother-in-law can manage these things, you have to be seriously bad off not to, and most of these people aren't, they're just whiney. It drives me up a wall to see people who are wallowing in their illnesses, and letting that define what they can and can't do with their lives. I mean, yes, be realistic, you're probably not going to be doing marathons when you're wheel-chair bound, but if you're not controlling your pain well enough to join your family for a dinner out or a movie, then you're not doing it right, and I don't have much sympathy for you.

I know that makes me sound a little heartless, but I've seen someone who, perhaps not overcame, but dealt with significant restrictions on what her body could do. And instead of feeling sorry for herself, she just kept on keepin' on, mostly through the gallons of stubbornness and spite that replaced her blood years ago.

[Flipshod]

.......

And I also believe that the lack of sympathy many people feel for people who still struggle with things that they have themselves overcome has far more to do with how people feel about themselves than anyone else.

...........

I came to make this point when I read the example of the ex-smoker being against current smokers. Addiction is unlike the other examples where life just deals you a bad hand. It involves some degree of personal responsibility. So to be someone who goes down that road and then, when off, is critical of others still on that road is hypocrisy. It's callous and self-serving, the same way bullying is. And yes it hurts, rather than helps, the prospects of the ones coming along behind you.

(and yes I've kicked a few addictions in my day including cigarettes)

ETA: And the same goes for many of life's problems that can also be traced to some extent our own behavior.

[Stoid]

I'm one of those people who can become overwhelmed by others' suffering. I can't be in the same room with someone crying without crying myself.

There is one situation though in which I seem to lose all empathy. This is when people allow their experiences to make them bitter and start treating others badly, or people who take the attitude that their pain justifies their lack of empathy. I try to avoid people like this, because I can't give them any support. I consider them weak. And it's very much based on the dynamic jsgoddess mentions in the OP--if I've been to hell and back and held onto my compassion for others, goddammit you can too, and there's no excuse for your hate. I'm not the kind of person who hates, but my attitude toward people who say to others ''I've been through X before so suck it up and quit complaining'' are the closest I come to hate.



I hear you loud and clear!

My best friend is a very good and loving person, but she has what i would consider an average dose of heartlessness/impatience/judgment/vindictiveness towards those she thinks have, in one way or another, given up their claim on the sympathy and tolerance of others. So we often find ourselves arguing (in a very friendly way) about the "correct" response to a given situation. She usually agrees with me in an intellectual way that a particular person deserves some sympathy (such as the murderer, and she's the degree of separation), she just can't really feel it emotionally.

I've come to realize that the meaner, nastier, more heartless and cruel someone is, the more deserving of sympathy they are, because all that ugliness is actually turned in on themselves. Imagine being that person? What is that like? Yikes.

It also leads me to one of my very favorite quotes: "Resentment is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die." and I think that is true of most of our ugly feelings. They hurt us, not the person they are directed towards. Because they are about us, not the person they are directed towards. So if you find yourself being impatient, angry, uncaring, judgmental, whatever, towards someone else...check in with yourself, because it's about you, and you are the only person whose suffering because of your feelings.

(Which, again, should not be taken as a claim of immunity against anger on my part. And I limit it to anger because that's the primary feeling I have about other people's behavior. But fortunately for me I find anger completely unsustainable, so it dissipates pretty fast.)

[yojimbo]

My Mother has sciatica. She'd hop around every now and then and complain about the pain. I felt for her but wasn't overly sympathetic about it.

Then I got it. Now I knew what that pain felt like. It's a type of pain that's hard to explain. It's deep and it moves around, sometimes it's in the muscles sometimes in the ankle. It's horrible and agony.

I've become much more sympathetic to her now that I understand what she was actually going through.

[Stoid]

My Mother has sciatica. She'd hop around every now and then and complain about the pain. I felt for her but wasn't overly sympathetic about it.

Then I got it. Now I knew what that pain felt like. It's a type of pain that's hard to explain. It's deep and it moves around, sometimes it's in the muscles sometimes in the ankle. It's horrible and agony.

I've become much more sympathetic to her now that I understand what she was actually going through.

I'm pretty sympathetic to just about any kind of pain because I'm a complete pussy. I can't stand the slightest discomfort anywhere in my body, it just leaves me useless. So real pain? Forget it, and I have nothing but respect and sympathy for people who have to manage it.

[Beware of Doug]

I think people often have a terrible time improving themselves because they have so much shame tied up in their behavior that they can't bear to confront it in order to do whatever work is needed to address it. Contrary to widely (and bizarrely) held belief, shame is about the worse possible motivator for change.Too true. I believe much of the lack of understanding for suffering people is due to that pernicious belief about shame.

Unfortunately, there is very little common wisdom one can turn to for relief from that. Shame is as deeply built into Western culture as is cruelty. So is the idea that both - shame and cruelty - are somehow redemptive or cleansing or just.

[Harmonious Discord]

I have sympathy for stuff when it happens to people. Except for occasional you need to talk times I also believe in stop crying about it and do what you can for yourself. I get really pissed with people that use torettes or similar as an excuse for their behavior they don't try to control. There is trying to be a better person despite your problems and there is making no effort and using your problem as an excuse for everything bad about yourself.

[Sehmket]

I have sympathy for stuff when it happens to people. Except for occasional you need to talk times I also believe in stop crying about it and do what you can for yourself. I get really pissed with people that use torettes or similar as an excuse for their behavior they don't try to control. There is trying to be a better person despite your problems and there is making no effort and using your problem as an excuse for everything bad about yourself.

I'm a little confused by one of your statements here... The definition of Tourette's is that of a behavior that is incapable of being controlled, not that they don't want to. You may want to educate yourself if you think Tourette's is only saying dirty words or uncontrolled blinking - it's a lot more complicated than that.

As a personal anecdote, I have a cousin with Tourette's. She doesn't blurt out dirty words, and her physical tics aren't very noticeable if you're not previously aware of them. However, she has a very, very difficult time keeping down a job because she will, seemingly randomly, ask extremely rude, personal, prying, and sensitive questions - the kind of thing people think and never say (How come you're so fat? You have so many children, hasn't anyone ever taught you about birth control? How'd you end up so ugly?). She's thirty now, and she's been working with therapists and been on medication since she was a small child, but it's never going to go away. It's not that she doesn't want to not say these things - she's generally extremely embarrassed about asking them - but she CAN'T not say it.

Now, she makes a lot of distance up to us who understand her disorder by apologizing, saying "don't answer that," and generally doing her best most of the time to be a nice person. I'm not saying there's not people out there who don't use their disabilities as an excuse to act like an ass, but I wanted to recommend a little education about a poorly-understood disorder.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourette's

[lindsaybluth]

I'd have to say it makes me less sympathetic. I had fairly extensive vitiligo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitiligo) through elementary and middle school, and most of my pigmentation (skin color) returned through treatment. It's still apparent on my hands, so most semi-observant people notice it daily. It's also on my shins, so whenever I work out, it's unavoidable.

Occasionally I'll meet people who have very minimal vitiligo - and who are white - so it's even less apparent. They'll talk endlessly about how devastating it is, how it affects them emotionally, how they talked about it on college applications, and how it's truly defined them as unique, blah blah blah. It really pisses me off because 1) they're white, it's less noticeable and 2) why the hell don't you just move on? Yes, you look different, yes it's unfortunate, but you know what? I came out with a thicker hide as a result, and found greater happiness than I ever could have had I never known what vitiligo was.

My brothers are both incredibly handsome, and if not for my vitiligo, I likely would have been very pretty all throughout elementary and middle school. Instead, I got the ugly duckling into a swan effect in mid-high school. I truly think this allowed me to develop a personality because I wasn't wrapped up in my looks as other good looking kids are. I even consider it a blessing - it's weeded out potential partners whose shallow personalities would otherwise have taken months or years to unveil themselves. It genuinely disappoints me that people haven't become stronger or happier from their vitiligo. They seem to wallow and use it as a scapegoat for their problems.

[Stoid]

IIt's not that she doesn't want to not say these things - she's generally extremely embarrassed about asking them - but she CAN'T not say it.

Now, she makes a lot of distance up to us who understand her disorder by apologizing, saying "don't answer that," and generally doing her best most of the time to be a nice person. I'm not saying there's not people out there who don't use their disabilities as an excuse to act like an ass, but I wanted to recommend a little education about a poorly-understood disorder.



I think it's pretty safe to say that the vast, vast majority of behaviors people engage in that are objectionable can be traced back to some degree of impulse-control impairment. Outside of sociopaths, people want to be liked, they want their behavior to be positive, productive, and healthy. So when we look around and see that nearly everyone engages in some kind of behavior that they'd probably rather not, what gives? It's a matter of how able each of us is to moderate ourselves, and like most things, that ability (not just the fact of doing it or not, the ability to do it ) exists or is lacking to varying degrees in all of us, and with some of us the severity of our inability is great enough to constitute labeling as a genuine "disorder".

As far as my own (ADD) goes, every single aspect of it is something that virtually everyone on earth suffers from to some degree sometimes (procrastination, short term memory failure, impulse control), but with me and others labeled with ADD, it's severe enough to impair successful functioning, that's all. It's not some cluster of completely unheard of behaviors and deficits, and that's the same with just about everything. (Possible exception being schizophrenia).

So, in keeping with the general theme of the OP, it's hypocritical and unfair to deny people our sympathy because we have either overcome or never suffered from exactly what they suffer from.

It sorta comes down to the words attributed to Jesus Christ himself: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....

And if he'd lived today, he likely would have followed up with: good luck with that.







One thing I don't think has been mentioned yet: people enjoy feeling superior, too. This drives a LOT of the worst sorts of intolerance: racism, nationalism, religious intolerance. And it is at the heart of our lack of sympathy for people still suffering from our former blight: HA! I'm BETTER THAN YOU! Because *I* managed to fix it in 2004, and YOU are still at it in 2010! I WIN!

Of course, it's completely irrational and nonsensical... 2004/Age 30/ Last month was the cutoff for giving up drugs/losing weight/stopping smoking/working harder/being better? HUH?


And of course the need and desire to believe we are superior to others is prompted by the fear or belief that we really aren't. So the only way to find some sense of worth is by locating the people who (we believe) are even more worthless than we are and pointing them out.


And finally, it's just true that we tend to react more intensely and negatively to things that remind us of things we don't like in ourselves, even if we've eradicated them. "I see the junkie I used to be when I look at you, and it makes me sick, so YOU make me sick, because you're the me I can't stand."

[Harmonious Discord]

I'm a little confused by one of your statements here... The definition of Tourette's is that of a behavior that is incapable of being controlled, not that they don't want to. You may want to educate yourself if you think Tourette's is only saying dirty words or uncontrolled blinking - it's a lot more complicated than that.

As a personal anecdote, I have a cousin with Tourette's. She doesn't blurt out dirty words, and her physical tics aren't very noticeable if you're not previously aware of them. However, she has a very, very difficult time keeping down a job because she will, seemingly randomly, ask extremely rude, personal, prying, and sensitive questions - the kind of thing people think and never say (How come you're so fat? You have so many children, hasn't anyone ever taught you about birth control? How'd you end up so ugly?). She's thirty now, and she's been working with therapists and been on medication since she was a small child, but it's never going to go away. It's not that she doesn't want to not say these things - she's generally extremely embarrassed about asking them - but she CAN'T not say it.

Now, she makes a lot of distance up to us who understand her disorder by apologizing, saying "don't answer that," and generally doing her best most of the time to be a nice person. I'm not saying there's not people out there who don't use their disabilities as an excuse to act like an ass, but I wanted to recommend a little education about a poorly-understood disorder.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourette's

First I said one illness and was referring to just all illnesses.

I've had vocal ticks with the sounds and all the movements since 1st grade. Throw in O.C. to where I would collapse trying to do something a certain way for over an hour. I've worked on controlling it as much as I could through meditation every night for years. Forcing myself blank out the surroundings helps. It doesn't stop the problems, just their escalation. I tell people to let me know if they couldn't take it any longer and I'd leave. Saying you have a problem doesn't mean others have to just grin and bare it. Last month I was having extreme problems with saying inappropriate stuff in public continuously again. Stuff like stupid fucking bitch. Cunt. Whore. Cock sucking bitch whore. I stayed out of public places as much as possible. I've met people that have these problems, but think saying they have this is an excuse that gives them a pardon for any behavior they do and they can be inconsiderate assholes. I apologize to people around me. Yes holding a job is hard and certain types harder than others.

[Harmonious Discord]

I forget that no matter that I've made my problems clear on this board at times that people will not know them. I apologize for going off on you. My don't bitch constantly about this illness policy means most people won't know, so what I'm saying without detailed information isn't taken like I intend. Then I get lectured on my problem and it triggers the response you got sometimes. Once again sorry for the above. Please note I'm not blaming it on the illness. I should know I can't make comments about this without a ton of background every time, which isn't worth it.

[olivesmarch4th]

I'm a little confused by one of your statements here... The definition of Tourette's is that of a behavior that is incapable of being controlled, not that they don't want to. You may want to educate yourself if you think Tourette's is only saying dirty words or uncontrolled blinking - it's a lot more complicated than that.
In Oliver Sacks' book The Man Who Mistook His Wife As a Hat (which is a compendium of neurological oddities), Sacks paints a vivid and loving portrait of a man with Tourette's who essentially found that the best part of his quirky, funny personality came from his disorder. When he started taking medication to control his behaviors he ceased to be the interesting, vibrant person he used to be, and so opted to discontinue the meds. It made his life harder in some ways, but he maintained his sense of self, his love for life, and he felt whole. His situation was unique or else it wouldn't have made it into the book, but I thought it was a very moving account worth reading.


And of course the need and desire to believe we are superior to others is prompted by the fear or belief that we really aren't. So the only way to find some sense of worth is by locating the people who (we believe) are even more worthless than we are and pointing them out.
Nailed it.

It also leads me to one of my very favorite quotes: "Resentment is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die." and I think that is true of most of our ugly feelings.
This reminds me of something I read in a Zen Buddhism book once -- that when we judge others, we're actually judging ourselves. We tend to try to control our own behavior through self-sanction (''I should never think that/do that or I would be bad'', and every time we judge another person we're only reflecting how we treat ourselves. One key to getting out of this cycle is to break the punitive relationship we have with ourselves -- to let go of the shoulds and mustn'ts and just accept that we are all just human beings in desperate need of compassion.

When I catch myself being jerky to other people or feeling less empathy for their situation, it's a BIG red flag that I'm being nasty to myself, too. Often when I pull back I find so many layers of pain and longing for acceptance underneath that veneer of nastiness. I've learned to be more attentive to my pain and grant myself that acceptance I need, and then I can move forward with more compassion for others.

ETA: And actually, now that I think of it, that's a good reason for me to let go of my disdain for people who fail to show empathy for others. Because by my own logic, they are being just as harsh on themselves, and really what they need is compassion too.

[Perciful]

This works well for me in all areas of my life. Too bad I had to become an alki to find this pearl of wisdom.

Acceptance Prayer

Acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation ~ some fact of my life ~ unacceptable to me and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake.

Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober, unless I accept life completely on life's terms. I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as what needs to be changed in me and my attitudes

From The Big Book of AA, pg.449

[WhyNot]

People have a tendency to grade experiences on a ''bad'' to ''worse'' spectrum, but the reality is that someone's ''worse'' could be someone else's ''bad'' or vice-versa. People are just different.
A friend of mine survived the sort of terrible childhood you only see on Lifetime moves (alcoholic mother who would disappear for weeks on end, leaving the 3 year old home alone to fend for herself, running from abusive group and foster homes, child rape, no schooling to speak of, lied her way into renting her first apartment at 13, etc.). She once said to me, "You know, a person's worst pain ever is their worst pain ever. It doesn't matter if my pain was "greater" or more "worthy" - it's still the worst pain they've ever felt."

That really made me pause and think. And become a lot more sympathetic to people suffering from "smaller" pains than hers or mine.

When I really start to get unsympathetic is, as someone else mentioned, when it seems like the person acknowledges the problem, articulates solutions, and then refuses to put those solutions into action. It's just so frustrating to be asked for the same advice over and over again, be told it's good advice and then later be asked for the same bloody advice again. Just...do it!

But really, I know that's not fair, and there are generally other things at play holding them back from actually solving their problems. To expect people to move on my time table is arrogance and egoism beyond belief.

[olivesmarch4th]

When I really start to get unsympathetic is, as someone else mentioned, when it seems like the person acknowledges the problem, articulates solutions, and then refuses to put those solutions into action. It's just so frustrating to be asked for the same advice over and over again, be told it's good advice and then later be asked for the same bloody advice again. Just...do it!

But really, I know that's not fair, and there are generally other things at play holding them back from actually solving their problems. To expect people to move on my time table is arrogance and egoism beyond belief.
My mother is the queen of repetitive self-destructive behavior--one unhealthy relationship and emotional breakdown after another. The depths of her denial and resistance to change are immense. She asks for advice, we give her advice, and she promptly ignores it. Over and over and over again. And yes, it drives me nuts and is frustrating. But for the first time ever, she is trying, and continues to try, and she had made incremental change to the best of her ability.

The thing is, we all do it. We might not do it on that grand of a scale, but everyone has their little ''blind spots,'' the parts about themselves they aren't willing or ready to change. I can point to a number of mistakes I keep making -- my tendency to procrastinate being chief among them.

When people engage in behavior we view as self-destructive, chances are that behavior serves some useful function for them, it was an adaptive survival move at one point that has since worn out its usefulness. It doesn't really make it less frustrating, but it helps me to hang on to some compassion for that person. My Mom helps me with this, because she's hurt a lot of people, including me, but I have always had so much compassion for her because I have always felt I understood her. I understand that at the core of every cruel or irrational thing she does is pain, and she's trapped and doesn't know how to get out. I think I am really grateful to have known her so intimately, if only because she has taught me a lot about how to practice compassion with people who are... difficult.

[Sehmket]

First I said one illness and was referring to just all illnesses.

I've had vocal ticks with the sounds and all the movements since 1st grade. Throw in O.C. to where I would collapse trying to do something a certain way for over an hour. I've worked on controlling it as much as I could through meditation every night for years. Forcing myself blank out the surroundings helps. It doesn't stop the problems, just their escalation. I tell people to let me know if they couldn't take it any longer and I'd leave. Saying you have a problem doesn't mean others have to just grin and bare it. Last month I was having extreme problems with saying inappropriate stuff in public continuously again. Stuff like stupid fucking bitch. Cunt. Whore. Cock sucking bitch whore. I stayed out of public places as much as possible. I've met people that have these problems, but think saying they have this is an excuse that gives them a pardon for any behavior they do and they can be inconsiderate assholes. I apologize to people around me. Yes holding a job is hard and certain types harder than others.

I'm sorry, I tend to get a little defensive of Tourette's in particular because of my cousin - I've seen her deal with a lot of lack of understanding in the world. I should have re-read your first post a few more times to get a better understanding of where you were coming from.

I do agree with the point you were trying to make - some people DO use their disabilities as an excuse to act like jerks. More of what I see is people who feel entitled to... something because of their disability (Sympathy? Priority treatment? I'm never sure.), and that sense of entitlement always grates on me wrong. It especially grates on me when it's not that debilitating of a disability, like diet-controlled diabetes. I've got a co-worker who whines constantly about how she can't eat whatever she wants, blah, blah, blah. If you listened to her, you'd think any minute now she's going to drop into a coma and die. I've dealt with one family member who is hypoglycemic and with one who started as diet-controlled and moved into insulin controlled diabetic. Developing a good low-GI diet is easy, and easy to stick to as long as you cook at home, and it drives me crazy to listen to her whine about how hard it is to control her diabetes when she still goes out for Italian a couple times a week.

[olivesmarch4th]

I do agree with the point you were trying to make - some people DO use their disabilities as an excuse to act like jerks. More of what I see is people who feel entitled to... something because of their disability (Sympathy? Priority treatment? I'm never sure.), and that sense of entitlement always grates on me wrong.
My uncle is schizoaffective with paranoid delusions -- about a hair's breath away from homelessness because of his inability (or refusal?) to function. He does not believe he is mentally ill, but any time he might get something he is quick to play the ''I'm mentally ill'' card. He has lied to social workers about receiving financial support, telling them he has no family and no-one to take care of him. My family gripes a lot about his frequent deception and sense of entitlement, feeling very strongly that he could work if he chose to work. They say that this is not part of his illness, he's just lazy and entitled.

I can't fathom what it's like to live the hell my uncle has endured. I've always been aware he was crazy, but I never really ''got'' how different his reality was from mine until one day I stopped by his apartment. The walls were dingy and yellow with smoke, their were coffee cans full of cigarette butts everywhere, dirty laundry and garbage piled up. And taped to his bathroom wall were a series of messages he had written to the tormenters that he routinely hallucinated -- just pages and pages begging them to leave him alone, telling them he didn't want to die and he'd never done anything wrong. Every word was just bleeding with desperation.

It left an... impression.

I didn't know my uncle before he lost his mind, so I cant say whether he is just lazy and entitled by nature. All I can say is I have a hard time judging him. People tend to view ''manipulation'' and ''entitlement'' and god forbid, ''attention whoring'' as a bad thing, but when you view it as a basic survival mechanism, it makes sense. Manipulation is a reaction to powerlessness. Entitlement grows out of a sense of helplessness. Attention is something that every human being needs. These are all behaviors that come from pain, loss, and desperation.

[Cat Whisperer]

Part of compassion is not allowing people to hurt themselves by hurting you, too.

[Beware of Doug]

This reminds me of something I read in a Zen Buddhism book once -- that when we judge others, we're actually judging ourselves. We tend to try to control our own behavior through self-sanction (''I should never think that/do that or I would be bad'', and every time we judge another person we're only reflecting how we treat ourselves. One key to getting out of this cycle is to break the punitive relationship we have with ourselves -- to let go of the shoulds and mustn'ts and just accept that we are all just human beings in desperate need of compassion.

When I catch myself being jerky to other people or feeling less empathy for their situation, it's a BIG red flag that I'm being nasty to myself, too. Often when I pull back I find so many layers of pain and longing for acceptance underneath that veneer of nastiness. I've learned to be more attentive to my pain and grant myself that acceptance I need, and then I can move forward with more compassion for others.

ETA: And actually, now that I think of it, that's a good reason for me to let go of my disdain for people who fail to show empathy for others. Because by my own logic, they are being just as harsh on themselves, and really what they need is compassion too.It never ceases to sadden me how deep down the conviction goes in our society that compassion is weakness - how tenaciously, even defensively, people hold to it, and yet how comparatively easy and pleasant it would be for us to learn to let go of it.

Are we really that religious (can't think of a better term) in our fear of what might happen? Or do we really care so much that other people be denied what we ourselves had to get along without?

What - quoting Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in a context he surely would never have approved of - is our major malfunction???

[olivesmarch4th]

It never ceases to sadden me how deep down the conviction goes in our society that compassion is weakness - how tenaciously, even defensively, people hold to it, and yet how comparatively easy and pleasant it would be for us to learn to let go of it.

Are we really that religious (can't think of a better term) in our fear of what might happen? Or do we really care so much that other people be denied what we ourselves had to get along without?

What - quoting Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in a context he surely would never have approved of - is our major malfunction???
Beware of Doug, I've been meaning to say this to you-- I suppose now is as good a time as any. I think you are one of the most thoughtful and interesting posters on this board. If you ever write a book, let me know. I'll buy a dozen copies.

[Beware of Doug]

olives, I am genuinely touched. But you should know that I'm not universally held in such regard. Most Dopers who remember my name do so because of the combative nihilist ranting I do in times when my depression gets the better of me. Still - thank you very kindly.

[olivesmarch4th]

olives, I am genuinely touched. But you should know that I'm not universally held in such regard. Most Dopers who remember my name do so because of the combative nihilist ranting I do in times when my depression gets the better of me. Still - thank you very kindly.
Yes, it's because of your existential angst I find your thoughts so compelling. Believe it or not, I'm the same way, I totally get it. But what matters is that you're always trying to create and articulate meaning, and that meaning is based in humanitarian values as evidenced in this thread. A lot of people take meaning for granted, but some of us have to build it from scratch. And what we build says a lot about who we are. I'm not even implying I always agree with your observations, but they always challenge me to more deeply explore my own convictions (Nietzsche's concept of ''worthy adversary'' springs to mind.) And you have such a unique voice, there is really none other like it on the Dope.


It never ceases to sadden me how deep down the conviction goes in our society that compassion is weakness - how tenaciously, even defensively, people hold to it, and yet how comparatively easy and pleasant it would be for us to learn to let go of it.
In the little blurb on my facebook profile, it says, ''Don't mistake my compassion for weakness.'' I try to combat this myth directly, but I don't think people really get it. How can I rephrase it? ''Just because I'm a nice lady doesn't mean I'm not a tough bitch!''

[Visual Purple]

It makes me more sympathetic. I've gotten through various bad phases, and a certain stubbornness has served me well, but every time, there's been dumb luck and social support involved as well. I've wallowed, and I know that, had I been a stronger person, I would wallowed less. But I had to go through what I had to go through in order to understand that there really was a path out.

At one point in my life, I must have been pretty intolerable. I still am amazed that not everyone dumped me. I owe just about everything to that unearned kindness--I try always to remember that. There but for the grace of Og go I... .

[Stoid]

I

ETA: And actually, now that I think of it, that's a good reason for me to let go of my disdain for people who fail to show empathy for others. Because by my own logic, they are being just as harsh on themselves, and really what they need is compassion too.

Funny how that works, isn't it? ;)

[Stoid]

Interesting...the murderer I spoke of a few days ago was sentenced today (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/crime/la-me-lily-burk-20100529,0,2276533.story?page=1). And today is the first time I've seen anything at all about his early life... I just assumed, based on his later life, what his early life must have been. Unsurprisingly, I was right:

Samuel, he said, experienced a "Dickensian" upbringing. As a 6-year-old boy, he watched his mother die of alcoholism, vomiting blood on the family's couch. He and his siblings were shuttled from relative to relative, Pesta said. At 15, he saw an uncle beat his aunt to death.

Samuel began using drugs and alcohol as a child. Though he has a criminal record that stretches back more than two decades, Samuel managed to spend some periods out of trouble when he wasn't using drugs or alcohol, Pesta said

It doesn't excuse the murder, it just shows that it was committed by someone deeply wounded and suffering himself.

It is the nature of the thing.

[China Guy]

I have to admit that I didn't notice/care to any great degree over people with special needs. To be honest, I think it wasn't really on the radar instead of anything malicious. Although I have vague memories of having to apologize to a class of MR's (mentally retarded, which was the used term back in the early 1970's) for having teased someone when I was in maybe the 4th grade. I have a 18 month old brother that was extremely premature for that age, is partially deaf and grew up with some challenges.

Having a special needs child of my own has been eye opening to say the least. And yes much more sypathetic to any fellow parent and moreso to the actual child or adult that has special needs.

[Beware of Doug]

In the little blurb on my facebook profile, it says, ''Don't mistake my compassion for weakness.'' I try to combat this myth directly, but I don't think people really get it.They're not going to. They've mostly been taught to act like it's true while being told it's not true.

The idea that "compassion is weakness" is like a lot of other pernicious ideas. It serves the interests of people in power only as long as they don't spell it out. The average person knows it's absurd when you state it openly. So you sneak it into the common belief system, and people swallow it without knowing they believe it.

How can I rephrase it? ''Just because I'm a nice lady doesn't mean I'm not a tough bitch!''Yes. Try that. Seriously. Words of one syllable always go down easier.

[jsgoddess]

ETA: And actually, now that I think of it, that's a good reason for me to let go of my disdain for people who fail to show empathy for others. Because by my own logic, they are being just as harsh on themselves, and really what they need is compassion too.

Can I still hate people who stop at the end of on ramps? Because if I can't, life isn't worth living!

[Stoid]

Can I still hate people who stop at the end of on ramps? Because if I can't, life isn't worth living!


I gotta go with you there. They need to be burned at the stake.

Along with 95% of tech support people.

But everyone else gets total compassion.

[Cat Whisperer]

Beware of Doug, I've been meaning to say this to you-- I suppose now is as good a time as any. I think you are one of the most thoughtful and interesting posters on this board. If you ever write a book, let me know. I'll buy a dozen copies.
It occurred to me a couple of years ago that it costs me absolutely nothing to compliment someone else, it takes nothing away from me to say something nice, there's no particular reason to not compliment people if they've done something worthy of complimenting, and yet people are hesitant to say something nice to someone else. Strange.

[alice_in_wonderland]

Suffering hyperemesis for 15 weeks of my pregnancy makes me much, much more sympathetic to other women in the same position. Until you have had constant daily nausea and daily vomiting for weeks on end I don't think you get how awful it is.

Well, I'm wildly jealous of your 15 weeks. I've been barfing for 28 weeks now (most recently about 15 minutes ago for the 2nd time today) and I'm assuming I'll be barfing for another 12. The person I really feel sorry for is my husband who's been cleaning up after me when I don't make it to the bathroom. Saint, that one is.

As to what I have trouble feeling sympathy for - people with thyroid disorders that are 100 or so lbs overweight and blame their thyroid. Bull and shit. I've been hypo-thyroid for years. I have to exercise and eat an appropriate diet or I would weigh a ton. So I do those things and I don't weigh a ton. Frankly, I don't give a flying rat's patootie how much someone weighs, but if you're going to be a shwank, at least own it. Blaming a sluggish thyroid is just lame.

[Stoid]

Well, I'm wildly jealous of your 15 weeks. I've been barfing for 28 weeks now (most recently about 15 minutes ago for the 2nd time today) and I'm assuming I'll be barfing for another 12. The person I really feel sorry for is my husband who's been cleaning up after me when I don't make it to the bathroom. Saint, that one is.

As to what I have trouble feeling sympathy for - people with thyroid disorders that are 100 or so lbs overweight and blame their thyroid. Bull and shit. I've been hypo-thyroid for years. I have to exercise and eat an appropriate diet or I would weigh a ton. So I do those things and I don't weigh a ton. Frankly, I don't give a flying rat's patootie how much someone weighs, but if you're going to be a shwank, at least own it. Blaming a sluggish thyroid is just lame.

:rolleyes: It is to weep.

[alice_in_wonderland]

:rolleyes: It is to weep.

:rolleyes: yourself.

There's next to nothing I can do about morning sickness other than giving birth, which I will do soon enough.

There's plenty that people with hypothyroidism can do to control their weight. Sorry that doesn't jibe with your worldview.

[aruvqan]

Well, I'm wildly jealous of your 15 weeks. I've been barfing for 28 weeks now (most recently about 15 minutes ago for the 2nd time today) and I'm assuming I'll be barfing for another 12. The person I really feel sorry for is my husband who's been cleaning up after me when I don't make it to the bathroom. Saint, that one is.

As to what I have trouble feeling sympathy for - people with thyroid disorders that are 100 or so lbs overweight and blame their thyroid. Bull and shit. I've been hypo-thyroid for years. I have to exercise and eat an appropriate diet or I would weigh a ton. So I do those things and I don't weigh a ton. Frankly, I don't give a flying rat's patootie how much someone weighs, but if you're going to be a shwank, at least own it. Blaming a sluggish thyroid is just lame.

keep a 3 gallon stock pot by your seat. If a ninja hurl shows up, lean over, pick it up and hurl.

The pot does a masterful job of containing hrock, and can be washed and sterilized after dumping it in the toilet.

[alice_in_wonderland]

keep a 3 gallon stock pot by your seat. If a ninja hurl shows up, lean over, pick it up and hurl.

Isn't there a weird thread featuring this around here somewhere?

[Beware of Doug]

It occurred to me a couple of years ago that it costs me absolutely nothing to compliment someone else, it takes nothing away from me to say something nice, there's no particular reason to not compliment people if they've done something worthy of complimenting, and yet people are hesitant to say something nice to someone else. Strange.Competition and defensiveness rule. Never be anyone's patsy; never appear disarmed; never show humanity unless and until it cannot be avoided.

[6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast]

I have sympathy for those who don't ask for it. It doesn't matter to me whether their experience is something I'm familiar with or not; if their situation seems to be an emotional 'currency' they use, I just wanna slap 'em.

[olivesmarch4th]

It occurred to me a couple of years ago that it costs me absolutely nothing to compliment someone else, it takes nothing away from me to say something nice, there's no particular reason to not compliment people if they've done something worthy of complimenting, and yet people are hesitant to say something nice to someone else. Strange.
This is partly because people can react really strangely to compliments. For some reason I have this memory of a girl I knew in junior high school, she had long red hair and very pale skin, kind of unusual looking but, I thought, very attractive. So one day I just told her, ''You know, I think you're really pretty.''

And she looked at me like I had three heads, like I had violated some unspoken social rule. I really wasn't a part of her social circle at all, so maybe I did.

Whatever. I still compliment people when I can. It's such an easy way to make someone feel good. I think people deserve explicit credit for their awesome parts.

[Stoid]

This is partly because people can react really strangely to compliments. For some reason I have this memory of a girl I knew in junior high school, she had long red hair and very pale skin, kind of unusual looking but, I thought, very attractive. So one day I just told her, ''You know, I think you're really pretty.''

And she looked at me like I had three heads, like I had violated some unspoken social rule. I really wasn't a part of her social circle at all, so maybe I did.

Whatever. I still compliment people when I can. It's such an easy way to make someone feel good. I think people deserve explicit credit for their awesome parts.

You and I seem to think and act very much alike in certain ways. I speak up to people about their awesome parts all the time.

Most recently i was in a store and an older woman was there, probably around 75. She was very beautiful, in a way that was exactly appropriate and natural for a woman who has lived 75 years to be beautiful, and it was clear that as a young woman she had been very beautiful. Since I live in LA, I assumed that at one time in her youth she was probably an actress or model.

So I asked her if she had been, and she said yes. Then I said I thought so because "you are such a beautiful woman" and she looked stunned and pleased all at once. I think it was not just because of the compliment, but because I didn't modify it to account for her age in any way, I just said you ARE a beautiful woman. Not were, or must have been, or for your age, or anything. And I'm sure she probably doesn't hear that very much anymore because even though she really truly is, the fact that her beauty includes wrinkles and white hair makes people think she "used to be". Which is such bullshit.

Anyway, I like telling people how awesome they are.

(And I'm kinda sensitive to modifying compliments because doing so is really a kind of insult. I've been overweight-to-obese back and forth since I was a kid, and I was pretty when I was young, fat or thin. But people seemed compelled to let me know they only thought my face was pretty, because they would always tell me "you have such a pretty face". Ummm... is that really necessary? Can't you just tell me you think I'm pretty? No? Then don't say anything, ok?)

[olivesmarch4th]

You're right, Stoid, we do seem mighty similar in this regard.


(And I'm kinda sensitive to modifying compliments because doing so is really a kind of insult. I've been overweight-to-obese back and forth since I was a kid, and I was pretty when I was young, fat or thin. But people seemed compelled to let me know they only thought my face was pretty, because they would always tell me "you have such a pretty face". Ummm... is that really necessary? Can't you just tell me you think I'm pretty? No? Then don't say anything, ok?)
This actually brings to mind a time Sr. Olives, back when we were still just friends, commented that I had a lovely face.

I was decidedly :dubious: until he hastily continued, ''That's, uh, not to imply anything negative about the rest of you.''

Just goes to show it's not always intended as an insult.

[FloatyGimpy]

Like, the constantly-depressed who don't want to see a therapist, take medication, etc. I've been depressed, and I made an effort to get myself out of it.

There are huge degrees of depression though. When I spent two months in the hospital because of depression, there was a lady who was so depressed, she almost couldn't walk. They had to bring her in on a stretcher. She and I shared a room and for the first couple of weeks, she didn't even get out of bed. I assume she went to the bathroom but I never saw her get up. When she eventually started sort of walking around, she held on to the walls and didn't open her eyes. After about a month she started talking a bit.

I find that a lot of people say "oh I've been depressed, you just have to pull yourself out of it!" and that's enough for them. But there's no way someone like that lady could ever just get herself out of it.

[olivesmarch4th]

There are huge degrees of depression though. When I spent two months in the hospital because of depression, there was a lady who was so depressed, she almost couldn't walk. They had to bring her in on a stretcher. She and I shared a room and for the first couple of weeks, she didn't even get out of bed. I assume she went to the bathroom but I never saw her get up. When she eventually started sort of walking around, she held on to the walls and didn't open her eyes. After about a month she started talking a bit.

I find that a lot of people say "oh I've been depressed, you just have to pull yourself out of it!" and that's enough for them. But there's no way someone like that lady could ever just get herself out of it.
While that's quite possibly the worst case of depression I've ever heard described, if she did recover, then she did get herself out of it. It sounds like while in the hospital she made progress by choosing to eventually get out of bed and start talking. I'm guessing your comment was more referring to people who think that because they pulled themselves out of mild or moderate depression without intervention that anyone can do it. I agree with you that those people often underestimate how severe depression can be and how necessary intervention is at times. And there are people who assume that because their depression responded well to medication/therapy that anyone else's should. I agree those people are wrong.

But I would still want to give credit to that lady for making choices to pull herself out of depression.