Johnny Hart wasn't exactly all that subtle was he? - Infamous menorah & cross strip

[astro]

Re Johnny Hart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Hart) the creator o the comic "B.C." re-found God in the late 70's and his comics began to have a fair amount of overtly Christian themes, but I had no idea he had taken it to this extreme. (http://www.tampabayprimer.org/index.cfm?action=articles&drill=viewArt&art=8)

[74westy]

Hart could be quite subtle (http://wondermark.com/the-comic-strip-doctor-bc/) when defaming other religions.

[Marley23]

Hart could be quite subtle (http://wondermark.com/the-comic-strip-doctor-bc/) when defaming other religions.
That's not subtle either.

[Celyn]

Wow. Both of those seem a bit nasty. :eek:

And I somehow managed only to see the name "Hart" at first, and thought it would be amusing the cute plasticine man "Morph". :smack:

[samclem]

Re Johnny Hart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Hart) the creator o the comic "B.C." re-found God in the late 70's and his comics began to have a fair amount of overtly Christian themes, but I had no idea he had taken it to this extreme. (http://www.tampabayprimer.org/index.cfm?action=articles&drill=viewArt&art=8) You evidently missed good threads about this at the time. I think some of that is gone, as we had another server.

[Freudian Slit]

I don't really get either of them. Can someone explain?

I get that it's a menorah, but why?

[Tanaqui]

I don't really get either of them. Can someone explain?

I get that it's a menorah, but why?Can you see the whole comic? It changes into a cross. While the text refers explicitly to the crucifixion of Jesus. Which has often been used as an excuse to persecute "the Jews" by anti-Semites. There's nothing to "get" if by "get" you mean a joke. It's just a nasty little piece of Christian propaganda. The same thing goes for the other strip--the outhouse has a crescent moon on it. The crescent moon is a symbol of Islam. Haha, Islam is stinky!! Either that or it's the worst joke in the history of jokes. There's nothing deeper to it than that. The man is a moron.

[John DiFool]

Was. Virtually none of that nonsense has shown up since JH's death (including that Anno Domine character).

[Freudian Slit]

Can you see the whole comic? It changes into a cross. While the text refers explicitly to the crucifixion of Jesus. Which has often been used as an excuse to persecute "the Jews" by anti-Semites. There's nothing to "get" if by "get" you mean a joke. It's just a nasty little piece of Christian propaganda. The same thing goes for the other strip--the outhouse has a crescent moon on it. The crescent moon is a symbol of Islam. Haha, Islam is stinky!! Either that or it's the worst joke in the history of jokes. There's nothing deeper to it than that. The man is a moron.

Oh okay. For some reason I didn't get that it was a menorah turning into a cross. I just kept thinking what does Hanukkah have to do with Jesus dying...like was this some kind of warning?

I suspected that was what the second one was about but that just seemed too ridiculously simple.

[panache45]

I just kept thinking what does Hanukkah have to do with Jesus dying...?

A Hanukkah menorah has 9 candles; The generic all-purpose Jewish menorah has 7.

[Peter Morris]

Can you see the whole comic? It changes into a cross. While the text refers explicitly to the crucifixion of Jesus.

Yeah, I can see that, but ...

Which has often been used as an excuse to persecute "the Jews" by anti-Semites. There's nothing to "get" if by "get" you mean a joke. It's just a nasty little piece of Christian propaganda.

Christian propaganda, yes, but why "nasty?" How exactly is that an attack on the Jews?

The same thing goes for the other strip--the outhouse has a crescent moon on it. The crescent moon is a symbol of Islam. Haha, Islam is stinky!! Either that or it's the worst joke in the history of jokes. There's nothing deeper to it than that. The man is a moron.

And this is even more of a stretch. I don't think that "slam = Islam" was deliberate. I see nothing more than a weak joke there. And he certainly told a lot of weak jokes.

[FriarTed]

Christian propaganda, yes, but why "nasty?" How exactly is that an attack on the Jews?


There's two interpretations of that strip, both reasonable IMHO.

The "innocent" view is that Christianity is a continuing of God's Revelation begun in Judaism.

The "nasty/attack" view is that Christianity is the replacement of Judaism & that C's triumph is in J's extinction.

I'm sure Hart did not intend the latter but I gotta admit that it's not a stretch to interpret it that way.

[CalMeacham]

Hart used to be subtle. I've been re-reading his old strips just last night, and remembering why I loved them. Before he git ultra-Christian, his stuff ran the gamut from blatantly stupid and silly to nuanced and witty. Looking at his late career, it's hard to believe that he and his cohorts used to compose strips by sitting around with a six-pack of beer and tossing ideas back and forth (as related in Backstage at the Strips.)

[Sam A. Robrin]

I think the outhouse joke was just another example of schoolboy bathroom humor. Outhouses have traditionally had moons carved into them (at least in comic strips), with no intended reference to Islam, for decades, and to suddenly attribute bigotry to that is to ignore that "Sometimes the cigar is just a cigar."
Like just about all religious references, the "menorah" sequence can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on whether the reader wants to see inspiration, or gets off on the power-trip that getting offended came to entitle him to in the wake of the civil rights movement. I take some offense at it myself, but more because I believe in the separation of church and strip, so to speak.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

One facet of the strip which stands out for me, and which hasn't been mentioned is that the first panel contains the words "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do" transposed over a Menorrah. That's either stunningly oblivious or an intentional allusion to Jews as "Christ killers."

I wouldn't surprise me if Hart did not think of the strip as anti-Jewish, though. The chauvinism of fundy Christianity is so ingrained and unconscious that they often don't even know they're doing it.

[Bosstone]

I think the outhouse joke was just another example of schoolboy bathroom humor. Outhouses have traditionally had moons carved into them (at least in comic strips), with no intended reference to Islam, for decades, and to suddenly attribute bigotry to that is to ignore that "Sometimes the cigar is just a cigar."I might agree, but the SLAM is too ostentatious to be written off as a mere sound effect.

[Skammer]

Well the title of the strip is "The last seven words of Jesus" and "Forgive them..." is the first of those quotations; I don't think JH intended to direct that at Jews in general. But I do think, in whole, the strip showed remarkable poor taste.

[Peter Morris]

Especially considering that the "them" referred to in the quote were the Romans.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Then why superimpose it over a menorrah?

It's beside the point that Hart was not accurate. Associating the menorrah with Passover is not accurate either.

By having the menorrah be destroyed, piece by piece, as Jesus dies, and then replaced with a cross and tomb, it's hard to defend the idea that he intended the images or religions to be presented as coequal or coexistent. He was replacing the one with the other. He was mindless enough not to think it was offensive, though.

[Peter Morris]

Then why superimpose it over a menorrah?

I think the idea is that by showing a Jewish symbol turning into a Christian one it just recognises that Christianity has it's roots in Judaism. I can believe that he intended it to be respectful.

It is possible that he misunderstood the meaning of the menorah, and the passover. I'll have to take your word for that. But I was always taught that the Last Supper was a Passover meal.


By having the menorrah be destroyed, piece by piece, ...


It isn't. It's just seven flames that go out, one by one. No part of it is damaged. And then it segues into a cross that resembles the cross-piece of the menorah.

[postcards]

Dan Piraro (http://blog.cagle.com/greenberg/files/2010/06/bizarro-bc.jpg) has a good take on B.C.

[Telemark]

I might agree, but the SLAM is too ostentatious to be written off as a mere sound effect.
As much as I dislike JH, I can't buy this. He used that type of effect elsewhere. I think that strip is innocent (and not funny).

[Sage Rat]

Hart could be quite subtle (http://wondermark.com/the-comic-strip-doctor-bc/) when defaming other religions.
I'd have to vote that that's reading way too much into it. An outhouse has a crescent moon on it 90% of the time in fiction, and 100% of the time when an outhouse is used in fiction its for humorous purposes. Why presume that Mr. Hart intended something different from every other author in the history of slapstick?

It smells.
Well duh!

That's the joke. If you were 3 years old, you'd probably think it was hysterical.

[Tom Tildrum]

Dan Piraro (http://blog.cagle.com/greenberg/files/2010/06/bizarro-bc.jpg) has a good take on B.C.

I believe that Hart actually addressed this point, indicating that he had come to see his cavemen not as prehistorical but as post-nuclear war survivors.

[Voyager]

As much as I dislike JH, I can't buy this. He used that type of effect elsewhere. I think that strip is innocent (and not funny).

You should read some of the interviews with him late in his life. He was quite rabid - even talking about how his mother was going to hell because she didn't believe strongly enough, IIRC. Many papers, including the Mercury News, dropped BC because of this clear bigotry.

[pulykamell]

There's two interpretations of that strip, both reasonable IMHO.

The "innocent" view is that Christianity is a continuing of God's Revelation begun in Judaism.

That's how I read it, and I'm not religious. But I suppose I could see the other reading.

As for the outhouse one, I think it's a stretch to consider that to be a slam on Islam. If it is, it's really, really subtle.

[DChord568]

Then why superimpose it over a menorrah?

It's beside the point that Hart was not accurate. Associating the menorrah with Passover is not accurate either.

By having the menorrah be destroyed, piece by piece, as Jesus dies, and then replaced with a cross and tomb, it's hard to defend the idea that he intended the images or religions to be presented as coequal or coexistent. He was replacing the one with the other. He was mindless enough not to think it was offensive, though.

I wasn't here at the time the strip was published, so I don't know the various interpretations that were bandied about.

But I sure do remember seeing it in my Sunday paper. My interpretation was the same as yours, and I was outraged by it. (For the record, I'm not Jewish.) Of course, when I brought it up to my Catholic cousin, just as you say, she couldn't see why it should be offensive.

I eventually stopped reading B.C. because of this and other examples of brute proselytizing...and also because Hart was so busy doing this that he forgot to be funny.

It's true that his replacement has knocked this stuff off, but he too rarely gives me any reason to laugh.

[Telemark]

You should read some of the interviews with him late in his life. He was quite rabid - even talking about how his mother was going to hell because she didn't believe strongly enough, IIRC. Many papers, including the Mercury News, dropped BC because of this clear bigotry.
I understand all that, but he also wrote many stupid and innocent comic strips. I think that this particular one is not anti-Muslim. I completely agree that other strips were anti-Semitic and a host of other stupid things.

Sometimes and outhouse is just an outhouse.

[The Second Stone]

SLAM is written in the interior of a giant I. Look at it again. He was insulting Islam and screwing with his editors.

[sachertorte]

I've never understood the 'Christ Killer' animosity towards Jews. Isn't the death of Christ the fundamental point of the religion? What would have happened if Christ wasn't killed? Wouldn't that mean he didn't die for the sins of Man? Wouldn't everyone be going to Hell then?
Looks to me like the Jews did the Christians a huge favor.

[Freudian Slit]

The menorah association is just so weird, though. I could see if it was just a passover thing but the menorah is only associated with Hanukkah...right?

It's just weird.

[Telemark]

SLAM is written in the interior of a giant I. Look at it again. He was insulting Islam and screwing with his editors.
Or not. That, IMO, is a fairly stretched way of interpreting that particular sound effect, especially one that is fairly standard and innocuous otherwise. You can interpret it that way, but I think it would be a mistake.

[CalMeacham]

The menorah association is just so weird, though. I could see if it was just a passover thing but the menorah is only associated with Hanukkah...right?



IIRC, the strip originally ran in December, the month of Hannukah and of Christmas. Most Christians don't make a big deal of the crucifix at Christmas, but some do, especially if they're trying to make a point.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

No, it ran at Easter, and Hart specifically called the menorrah "a symbol of Passover," which it isn't. At all.

It was like using a Christmas tree as a symbol of Easter.

[Katriona]

IIRC, the strip originally ran in December, the month of Hannukah and of Christmas. Most Christians don't make a big deal of the crucifix at Christmas, but some do, especially if they're trying to make a point.

It was his Easter strip that year. He probably used the Menorah just because it's a well-known symbol.

[Thing Fish]

Note in the linked article that he also said bread was a symbol of Passover!
Massive bigotry fail!!!

[Freudian Slit]

No, it ran at Easter, and Hart specifically called the menorrah "a symbol of Passover," which it isn't. At all.

It was like using a Christmas tree as a symbol of Easter.

To me that reads like it's just using a Jewish symbol for the sake of using it, then. Or rather for the sake of putting it down. Like if there was some tie in with the Last Supper/Passover thing, that might be sort of interesting. But as it is...not really.

[Beware of Doug]

Dog whistle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics)
A figure of speech or imagery intended to send a message to a certain segment of people, and be ignored by others (or at least provide deniability if others detect a message).

[Maus Magill]

That's how I read it, and I'm not religious. But I suppose I could see the other reading.

As for the outhouse one, I think it's a stretch to consider that to be a slam on Islam. If it is, it's really, really subtle.

And towards the end, Hart was anything but subtle.

Team Stupid Joke.

[Larry Mudd]

Both of those strips go pretty far in validating the universal comic punchline (http://www.robertsinclair.net/comic/asshole.html) theory.

Edit: The Piraro one works, too.

[choie]

If it's not meant to be a dig at Islam, what's the joke? Outhouses stink, a fact that BC (the character) is apparently ignorant of? Yeah, right. I agree Hart wasn't very funny post-1975 or so, but the "jokes" were bad, not non-existant. Here there's no joke whatsoever, just a guy going into an outhouse and complaining that it's stinky. There's a message here, folks, and it ain't that BC has never been in an outhouse before.

[Chronos]

The outhouse one is pretty clearly just your standard juvenile potty humor. The crescent moon is the symbol for an outhouse, and the "slam" is necessary to indicate that he's gone into the outhouse. It's vertical (in the shape of an "I", if you insist) because that's the way to fit it in between panels.

[astro]

The outhouse one is pretty clearly just your standard juvenile potty humor. The crescent moon is the symbol for an outhouse, and the "slam" is necessary to indicate that he's gone into the outhouse. It's vertical (in the shape of an "I", if you insist) because that's the way to fit it in between panels.

You're a very smart guy... but come on. The panel makes no sense without the Islam context. Simply walking into a bathroom and proclaiming it stinks isn't a joke or a punchline, even for someone as lazy as Hart.

[Larry Mudd]

The outhouse one is pretty clearly just your standard juvenile potty humor. The crescent moon is the symbol for an outhouse, and the "slam" is necessary to indicate that he's gone into the outhouse. It's vertical (in the shape of an "I", if you insist) because that's the way to fit it in between panels.I tend to agree that this strip may have been intended as a dig against Islam - largely because of how unnecessary (and awkward) the SLAM is. The strip would have flowed much better if buddy was shown closing the door.

I do recall that Hart sometimes used giant "sound words" in the interstitial spaces of his strips, but this doesn't really do a very good job of saying "Buddy has reached the top of the hill, entered, and closed the door." Why is it necessary for him to have SLAMMED the door with all of the emphasis of Fat Broad WHAMMING a snake?

True - if this was a Jim Davis strip, I doubt I would give this interpretation much weight. However, it's Johnny Hart. I think he was deliberately (if ineptly) propagandizing.

[Pleonast]

As a Christian I find the menorah-cross strip to be offensive just because it's using religious symbols (both Christian and Jewish) in unflattering ways.

My impression about the outhouse strip is it's a joke about how stinky one's own shit is. He doesn't notice the smell until he's been in there a while. That is, after his business had progressed. Self-deprecation is a common form of humor.

Trying to get analytic about it, there's an obvious parallel between the moon on the outhouse and the moon in world. I think that's saying it's not just the outhouse that's stinky but the world as a whole. The strip is saying our shit is stinking up the whole world. More a political statement than humor.

I guess I don't associate the moon with Islam, so that didn't even occur to me. Trying to find an "I" around "SLAM" is like trying to find "SEX" in the background of a Disney cartoon. Simply silly.

[pulykamell]

You're a very smart guy... but come on. The panel makes no sense without the Islam context. Simply walking into a bathroom and proclaiming it stinks isn't a joke or a punchline, even for someone as lazy as Hart.

I don't understand how people are saying they are not seeing the humor in the strip, and that the only way the punchline works is with the Islam context. Fred Basset got by on much worse punchlines. I mean, seriously, people. It's just a bad nyuk-nyuk kind of joke that I could imagine my wacky uncle saying. It's mildly amusing as is. With the Islam interpretation, it's just weird.

[Peter Morris]

Okay, have you any other evidence of Hart's anti-Jewish, anti-Islamic stance? Anything besides dubious interpretations of just two cartoons? And just being pro-Christian doesn't count. It's possible to be a fundie without hating other religions.

[Chronos]

Well, I can see people saying that it's not funny, or that the punchline doesn't work, but I'd expect that they should at least see how it's supposed to be funny.

The real test, I think: If nobody told you that "SLAM" written vertically was supposed to mean "Islam", or presented the strip as something potentially offensive, and you just saw it in the course of reading the comics page in the newspaper, would the Islam connection have ever occurred to you? Myself, I would have just thought, "Hm, that wasn't very funny today", and moved on to Wizard of Id.

[Ellis Aponte Jr.]

I was just going to say, when I first looked at the second strip I didn't register the SLAM part and I still thought it was an anti-Islamic statement. Adding the SLAM to the equation just really slams the point home. Also, why the second crescent moon in the sky? Coincidence? No way. And no, I don't see any joke in there otherwise... but then I don't have any wacky uncles.

[UncaStuart]

I tend to agree that this strip may have been intended as a dig against Islam - largely because of how unnecessary (and awkward) the SLAM is. The strip would have flowed much better if buddy was shown closing the door.

I do recall that Hart sometimes used giant "sound words" in the interstitial spaces of his strips, but this doesn't really do a very good job of saying "Buddy has reached the top of the hill, entered, and closed the door." Why is it necessary for him to have SLAMMED the door with all of the emphasis of Fat Broad WHAMMING a snake?

Agree. The SLAM is awkward, and if it were just a potty joke it would work better without it. The first panel is the setup, the second is the "wait for it," and the third is the, er, punchline. Interjecting the SLAM messes the timing up for no advantage in the, er, storytelling.

[Marley23]

That's not subtle either.
Somewhere along the line I got the idea that Hart acknowledged the outhouse strip was a poke at Islam. Wikipedia actually says he denied it - which doesn't prove anything but does make me a lot less certain that's what he was going for. So I'm going to back off of my assumption that he was proselytizing with that one.

[Peter Morris]

Agree. The SLAM is awkward, and if it were just a potty joke it would work better without it. The first panel is the setup, the second is the "wait for it," and the third is the, er, punchline. Interjecting the SLAM messes the timing up for no advantage in the, er, storytelling.

The SLAM is there to indicate that he has gone into the outhouse and shut the door. Without it, the sequence would have been more confusing. It's hard to indicate an action like shutting a door in a comic, and Hart frequently used sound effects instead of drawing the action.

[pulykamell]

The SLAM is there to indicate that he has gone into the outhouse and shut the door. Without it, the sequence would have been more confusing. It's hard to indicate an action like shutting a door in a comic, and Hart frequently used sound effects instead of drawing the action.

Here's an example (http://www.johnhartstudios.com/bc/strips/2010/january/bc011010ksc.jpg) of him using sound effects as a substitute for drawing action panels in other strips. Note the layout of the effect word is exactly the same as in the outhouse comic, with the word "WUMP" instead of "SLAM".

edit: Darn, that's actually a post-Hart strip, with Mason Mastoianni.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

edit: Darn, that's actually a post-Hart strip, with Mason Mastoianni.

It still constitutes a dastardly slur against Iwump.

Those who insist that the outhouse strip must be a commentary on Islam because otherwise the strip is unfunny and incoherent are forgetting that Hart's strips were frequently unfunny and incoherent. B.C. was always a regular subject of "please explain this strip to me" threads. I do wonder a bit why the strip takes place at night, but I also think that if Hart had intended the crescent moon to be a symbol of Islam he would (should) have added a star. And reading significance into the vertical "SLAM" just smacks too much of finding Paul-is-dead clues on Beatles albums for my comfort.

[Sam A. Robrin]

reading significance into the vertical "SLAM" just smacks too much of finding Paul-is-dead clues on Beatles albums for my comfort.

Well, the walrus was Paul--but Jesus was the carpenter . . .

[pulykamell]

And no, I don't see any joke in there otherwise... but then I don't have any wacky uncles.

*shrug*

To me it's the same type of joke as walking into an actual sauna and saying, "hey, it's like a sauna in here!" (from Seinfeld.) Walking into an outhouse, dropping a deuce, and then saying "Is it just me, or does something stink?" is the same type of humor, although not quite as funny as the sauna line. I could see my uncle (or even me, really) going for that exact type of joke, walking into some place with an obviously overwhelming odoriferous environment and pulling out that punchline. Or any other situation that is very obviously X, and saying "Is it just me, or is it X"? (Like being down 12-0 at a Cubs game and turning to your pal, saying, "Is it just me, or are we getting our asses kicked?") I really don't understand why it's so hard to see the joke here. You don't have to find it funny, but the humor is basically in the stating of the obvious. The Seinfeld example has the added humor of playing with a cliche, but the BC joke also has the weaker cliche of "Is it just me, or ..."

[Ellis Aponte Jr.]

Here's another hilarious Johnny Hart strip from July 3, 2006. The guy really had a thing for crescent moons.

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/008679.shtml

[Freudian Slit]

But it doesn't really seem like a joke that way. I guess if you have a really weak sense of humor, something like, "Boy it's hot" or "Wow, you're tall" is funny. The Seinfeld thing is at least sort of meta. Stating the obvious is just...well, making a statement. By that rationale, anything is funny.

[pulykamell]

Here's another hilarious Johnny Hart strip from July 3, 2006. The guy really had a thing for crescent moons.

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/008679.shtml

That's not a straightforward pun on "lunatic"? That's how I read it.

[pulykamell]

But it doesn't really seem like a joke that way. I guess if you have a really weak sense of humor, something like, "Boy it's hot" or "Wow, you're tall" is funny. The Seinfeld thing is at least sort of meta. Stating the obvious is just...well, making a statement. By that rationale, anything is funny.

Well, it is funny to me. I know I've made or heard jokes with that structure before. Then again, I do tend to laugh at almost anything.

[Ellis Aponte Jr.]

That's not a straightforward pun on "lunatic"? That's how I read it.
Again, notice the oddly gratuitous detail - the star next to the "crescent moon."

[pulykamell]

Again, notice the oddly gratuitous detail - the star next to the "crescent moon."

There is no "cresent moon" in the picture, just a turtle's finger. The star seems to be a conventional way to indicate "ouchie" in a comic. I obviously see what you're getting at, but I think it's stretching.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

That's not a straightforward pun on "lunatic"? That's how I read it.

Which is more likely?

A. It's an innocent pun involving a reference to a specifically crescent moon because that works best for the joke, and a tiny drawing of a star because that's the standard cartoon convention for indicating pain, or

B. Johnny Hart in his dotage was witty enough to craft jokes with two entirely separate levels of meaning.

[pulykamell]

I should say, the one thing that does seem a little incongruous to me is not the star, but the use of the word "crescent." That does seem a bit unnecessary.

edit: Biffy - Sorry, your post wasn't up when I responded. I would say both are equally likely. Perhaps I'm not giving Hart enough credit and he's much more crafty than I previously thought. But if it's a slam on Islam, it's a really subtle and ineffective one. I still vote pun with coincidental alternate reading.

[pulykamell]

On your side, you do have Pulitzer Prize winning humorist Gene Weingarten (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/06/27/DI2006062700793.html) opining rather confidently that the double meaning was intentional. He does, however, read even more subtlety into Hart's strip, saying it wasn't a smear of Islam, but rather of Islam terror ("I do not see this cartoon as hatred of Islam - it is a statement about Crescent Moons that BITE, which is to say, Islamic terrorism. I don't see anything wrong with Johnny Hart condemning Islamic terrorists. ")

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

I should say, the one thing that does seem a little incongruous to me is not the star, but the use of the word "crescent." That does seem a bit unnecessary.

The turtle can't just say "moon-shaped"; that would suggest a full moon, and that the bite is simply round. Nobody calls anything round "moon-shaped." (Well, except for round faces.) He could say "half-moon-shaped," but even that sounds like a slightly odd way to describe a semicircle. The crescent moon, however, is the essence of mooniness. If you wanted to sketch something instantly recognizable as the moon, just a quick, simple representation, wouldn't you naturally make it a crescent?

On your side, you do have Pulitzer Prize winning humorist Gene Weingarten (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/06/27/DI2006062700793.html) opining rather confidently that the double meaning was intentional.

It certainly wasn't my intention to align myself with that "side."

[pulykamell]

It certainly wasn't my intention to align myself with that "side."

Whoops. Got the characters in this thread mixed up a bit. (And by "side" I mean "side of the argument.")

As for the crescent moon analysis, that's the same line of logic I was following. But I think you could get away with the term "moon-shaped" without confusing readers. That said, even if Hart dropped the "crescent," I'm sure there'd still be plenty of people reading into it, anyway. It's still a star and a moon and, like you said, when you think of a moon, what shape do you think of? A crescent.

[Ellis Aponte Jr.]

You can read the Washington Post article on Johnny Hart from the April 4, 1999 edition to get a glimpse of the man's true feelings about Jews and Muslims. (The article must be purchased). That's where Wiki gets that charming quote in their Johnny Hart entry.

[pulykamell]

You can read the Washington Post article on Johnny Hart from the April 4, 1999 edition to get a glimpse of the man's true feelings about Jews and Muslims. (The article must be purchased). That's where Wiki gets that charming quote in their Johnny Hart entry.

Well, if you're a fundamentalist, isn't anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as their savior going to Hell?

Anyhow, I'm well aware of Hart's theological leanings. I simply don't think the outhouse strip is a clever dual-layered joke. I do think more of an argument can be made for the turtle/crescent moon/lunatic joke. And, if it is indeed an intentional double meaning joke, I think it's quite a clever one and have to give Hart credit for it. But I'm not convinced it's intentional.

[NAF1138]

The menorah association is just so weird, though. I could see if it was just a passover thing but the menorah is only associated with Hanukkah...right?
.

Nope. It's an all purpose symbol of Judaism, and before WWII it was the primary symbol associated with the Jewish people*. You are thinking of the Hanukiah which is a special type of menorah which has extra candles to symbolize the miracle of the oil lasting eight days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menorah_%28Temple%29

As a Jew I felt like the menorah and cross strip was a clear swipe at Judaism, but then as a Jew I am a bit sensitive to this sort of thing. It's been less than four months since we were asked to leave daycare because they found out our daughter was jewish, so it's not like people aren't still hateful bastards even in this day and age.

I have to think that Hart knew exactly what he was doing with that strip, that symbolism, and the timing of the strip's release. In fact, it's because that strip was so very clear that I am not really sure that the other strip was a swipe at Islam. I am not convinced that he could be that subtle.


*If I am remembering it correctly it wasn't until the concentration camps that the Star of David became an all purpose symbol for Judaism, before that it was more a symbol of Zionism. My memory might be a bit rusty, though wiki does seem to back me up.

[Ellis Aponte Jr.]

I simply don't think the outhouse strip is a clever dual-layered joke.

I don't think it is either. I think it's a single-layered religious or politico-religious commentary. I would guess that by the time of the strip from three years later he realized he had to put some form of actual joke in there to cover himself.

[pulykamell]

I don't think it is either. I think it's a single-layered religious or politico-religious commentary. I would guess that by the time of the strip from three years later he realized he had to put some form of actual joke in there to cover himself.

I guess we'll just disagree, then.

[astro]

As a Jew I felt like the menorah and cross strip was a clear swipe at Judaism, but then as a Jew I am a bit sensitive to this sort of thing. It's been less than four months since we were asked to leave daycare because they found out our daughter was Jewish, so it's not like people aren't still hateful bastards even in this day and age.
.

(bolding mine) What? Unless you deliberately enrolled your child in an overtly religiously oriented (assumedly Christian) daycare how could this ever happen?

[Maus Magill]

You can read the Washington Post article on Johnny Hart from the April 4, 1999 edition to get a glimpse of the man's true feelings about Jews and Muslims. (The article must be purchased). That's where Wiki gets that charming quote in their Johnny Hart entry.

I agree that Hart was a bigot, but he was incapable of being subtle. Look at the Menorah strip, that was about as overt as you can get.

Your two examples are just too subtle for Hart.

[Lute Skywatcher]

The crescent moon, however, is the essence of mooniness.Or this guy (http://antimoon.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/rev-moon.jpg).

[Ellis Aponte Jr.]

I do think more of an argument can be made for the turtle/crescent moon/lunatic joke. And, if it is indeed an intentional double meaning joke, I think it's quite a clever one and have to give Hart credit for it. But I'm not convinced it's intentional.

If one accepts that the turtle strip is a Muslim reference it would be hard to maintain that the earlier outhouse strip was not as well. What would be the chances that Hart would get into all kinds of hot water, have his strip pulled, etc. for making an innocuous gag that people imagined was anti-Muslim... and then three years later make an intentionally pointed Muslim reference in the same strip?

If the turtle strip had come first & was the only controversial one I might be on the fence about it - provided that I didn't also know the following:

that Hart was a Christian fundamentalist
what he was willing to say about Muslims to a major newspaper
that he was in the habit of making apocalyptically-minded comments, such as his
thought that the world might end by 2010
that he frequently includes religious commentary in his strips
that he had already published the "unsubtle" Menorah strip

[Sampiro]

I don't really get either of them. Can someone explain?

I get that it's a menorah, but why?

Evidently Jesus died during Backwards Hannukah.

Though having cavemen know about Jesus is interesting chronology, even assuming B.C. stands for "Benny Claude" or whatever.

[Clothahump]

I eventually stopped reading B.C. because of this and other examples of brute proselytizing...and also because Hart was so busy doing this that he forgot to be funny.

There it is.

[pulykamell]

If one accepts that the turtle strip is a Muslim reference

But I don't accept the turtle strip as a Muslim reference. Like I said, we're going to have to disagree on this.

[Peter Morris]

If the turtle strip had come first & was the only controversial one I might be on the fence about it - provided that I didn't also know the following:

that Hart was a Christian fundamentalist
what he was willing to say about Muslims to a major newspaper

Okay, I'll bite. What DID he say about Muslims to a major newspaper?

[pulykamell]

Okay, I'll bite. What DID he say about Muslims to a major newspaper?

He said they and Jews (and presumably anyone else) are going to Hell if they don't accept Christ as their savior.

[Telemark]

But I don't accept the turtle strip as a Muslim reference. Like I said, we're going to have to disagree on this.
I'm with pulykamell on this. I am sure that Hart had some silly and offensive ideas, and the Menorah strip is pretty clear, but people are reading way too much into the other strips. They're bad jokes, that's all.

[Ellis Aponte Jr.]

Okay, I'll bite. What DID he say about Muslims to a major newspaper?
That they'll burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus. Which, as was pointed out, is what you'd expect a fundamentalist to believe... But I just think it's telling that Hart, a public figure, would come out & say it in the mass media, as it were. It shows that he wasn't stealthy or timid about his beliefs.

And to pulykamell, I was just extrapolating from your "if it is indeed an intentional double meaning joke, I think it's quite a clever one" comment. Not trying to put words in your mouth & I'm quite happy to agree to disagree. This is not a major cause of mine - I'm just saying how I interpret the comic strips & why.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

The SLAM is there to indicate that he has gone into the outhouse and shut the door. Without it, the sequence would have been more confusing. It's hard to indicate an action like shutting a door in a comic, and Hart frequently used sound effects instead of drawing the action.It's not at all necessary to have "SLAM" in there. What, if the first panel was the guy walking up to the outhouse, the second was the outhouse, and the third had the guy's voice coming out of the outhouse, you wouldn't know that the guy had gone into the outhouse? If there was some doubt, you could have shown the outhouse door as being open in the first panel. It isn't necessary, and it doesn't make sense for him to slam the door.

It's also just so very, very unfunny that there is no way the purpose was humor. It makes no sense.

[Telemark]

It's also just so very, very unfunny that there is no way the purpose was humor. It makes no sense.
Clearly you haven't read BC much. That's BC, in a nutshell.

[Marley23]

I'm not seeing a message in the turtle strip either. "Lunatic" is an obvious pun. It's not funny, but it's easy to see what the joke is.

[pulykamell]

It's not at all necessary to have "SLAM" in there. What, if the first panel was the guy walking up to the outhouse, the second was the outhouse, and the third had the guy's voice coming out of the outhouse, you wouldn't know that the guy had gone into the outhouse?

If there was some doubt, you could have shown the outhouse door as being open in the first panel. It isn't necessary, and it doesn't make sense for him to slam the door.

It's also just so very, very unfunny that there is no way the purpose was humor. It makes no sense.

Like I said, less funny jokes abound in comic strips. Have you ever read Comics I Don't Understand? And really, you're getting hung up about "SLAM"? Are those types of sound effects necessary in any comics? And I really think it is an example of "old man humor." Yes, I could actually see some people finding it funny as written. People have weird senses of humor. Heck, I find it slightly amusing.


I'm not seeing a message in the turtle strip either. "Lunatic" is an obvious pun. It's not funny, but it's easy to see what the joke is.

Oh, but you see, it's obviously a subversive swipe on Islam because it mentions a crescent moon and there's a star somewhere in the strip. There can be no other explanation.

[TriPolar]

Both of those strips go pretty far in validating the universal comic punchline (http://www.robertsinclair.net/comic/asshole.html) theory.

Edit: The Piraro one works, too.

By modifying a Calvin&Hobbes comic, and including it with a collection of inferior strips, you have committed blasphemy. Hart is hardly controversial compared to your heretical views. Your sin is beyond redemption.

[NAF1138]

(bolding mine) What? Unless you deliberately enrolled your child in an overtly religiously oriented (assumedly Christian) daycare how could this ever happen?

Long story, and frankly I am not 100% certain that it was because of our Jewishness, there was just a lot of coincidence in the timing.

The short version is, we enrolled my (at the time) 4 month old in a home daycare that was very highly thought of in the community, so my wife could go back to work. It is run by some very devoutly Christian women, but that didn't bother us since they took good care of their kids and the school wasn't a religious one.

Around Easter the woman who ran the school told us that the school would be closed for the holiday and asked if we would be taking the NAFlett to church or if she we thought she was still too young. My wife replied, well, we are Jewish, so no church for us. To which we were told "Well, we believe in Jesus in this house, so we will be in Church." She may or may not have mumbled something about not wanting to burn, my wife and I disagree on that point.

A week later they told us that they could no longer take children under 1 year of age. No one at the school spoke to us or made eye contact with us in that time period other than to give us a concise report on the health of our daughter (they had been very friendly and chatty in the past). We had already started looking for a new daycare as it was (for a variety of reasons), but it was still a bit surprising to actually be told we had to find other daycare options.

Could they really have decided that they couldn't take children under 1 year of age? Sure. Do I think it is likely? No.


Sorry for the hijack.