Arizona Republicans to deny birth certificates to "anchor babies"!

[magellan01]

You could pass an amendment to change the law. But claiming that was the original intent is still just an opinion, which has already been trumped by the Supremes. Sorry.

That's not right. Yes, the Supremes have ruled on what the law is, but not as to whether they ruled that way because that was what they viewed as the original intent. Not all laws are decided on original intent grounds. Surely you heard the the term "penumbras". In this very thread there have been cites showing what the actual crafters of the law wanted the law to do and not do. The congressional record contains their actual words explaining that.

So, unless you can show me where the Supremes specifically argued original intent in their decision, you're wrong. Sorry.

[Fear Itself]

That's not right. Yes, the Supremes have ruled on what the law is, but not as to whether they ruled that way because that was what they viewed as the original intent. Not all laws are decided on original intent grounds. Surely you heard the the term "penumbras". In this very thread there have been cites showing what the actual crafters of the law wanted the law to do and not do. The congressional record contains their actual words explaining that.

So, unless you can show me where the Supremes specifically argued original intent in their decision, you're wrong. Sorry.So when SCOTUS rendered their decision, they were too stupid to read the so-called "actual words" and interpret them in their decision? Why should I give them more weight than the Supreme Court does? Fail.

[Damuri Ajashi]

I don't think they want to ignore the law; they want to change it.

When you want to pass an unconstitutional law, you are attempting to ignore the highest law in the land.

[Damuri Ajashi]

You could pass an amendment to change the law. But claiming that was the original intent is still just an opinion, which has already been trumped by the Supremes. Sorry.

The Supreme Court is only correctly interpreting the constitution when they agree with the far right, don't you know.

The current interpretation of the 14th amendment wasn't some Roe v. Wade 5-4 decision, I believe it was a 8-0 decision with one justice not participating, there is no question about what those words mean, its not a close call.

[The Tao's Revenge]

So now that Arizona is target Americans for harassment simply because of who their parents are, does anyone deny the folks in the Arizona state government are being racist bigots?

[Polycarp]

That's not right. Yes, the Supremes have ruled on what the law is, but not as to whether they ruled that way because that was what they viewed as the original intent. Not all laws are decided on original intent grounds. Surely you heard the the term "penumbras". In this very thread there have been cites showing what the actual crafters of the law wanted the law to do and not do. The congressional record contains their actual words explaining that.

So, unless you can show me where the Supremes specifically argued original intent in their decision, you're wrong. Sorry.

But originalism is only one of three ways in which the Constitution is construed. Textualism is substantially more common -- the actual words put to paper, proposed by Congress and ratified by he states, not a reconstruction of what might have been their intent in so doing, governs. If the actual words are that "Congress shall pass no law ... abridging the right of the people peacably to assemble and to petition for a redress of grievances," then regardless of the First Congress's intent in including that right in the First Amendment, it means that any peaceful assembly and any petitioning for redress of grievances is protected against government infringement. "Living Consittuionalism" also starts with the text but takes the premise that the meaning of the words may evolve with the nation. "No cruel and unusual punishment" means, not adherence to some metaphysical objective ideal of what cruelness and unusualness in punishment might be, nor what the First Congress meant by the phrase, but what it means to a reasonable man with passing familiarity with legal precedent today. The mocking "penumbras and emanations" derive, first from language used by Justice Douglas in one decision, and second from their being applied to efforts to determine what "no deprivation of life, liberty, or property without due process of law" might mean in practice. Almost everyone would see a law forbidding you from going anywhere but your home, place of employment, or nearest grocery store without prior permission from DHS as violating the guarantee of liberty. But the question of whether you may be compelled to devote your body to the nourishment of an unborn fetus which you did not choose to conceive suddenly brings to light the question of how far liberty extends. (And yes, I know Magellan is male; that "you" is generic, including the roughly 45% of the population which can get pregnant.)

In this case, whatever may have been the intent of the Reconstruction-Era Congress, the precise words of the law specify that any person born or naturalized in the U.S. and subject to the laws thereof is a U.S. citizen, and that no state may deny that U.S. citizen his rights as a U.S. citizen. That includes young citizens born to people subject to the laws against being illegal aliens.

[magellan01]

But originalism is only one of three ways in which the Constitution is construed.

You are correct. And my point was simply that originalism is not what was used in the Supreme's decision in this particular case. That's it. So, Fear Itself is wrong on that point. But he'll come back a try more semantic gymnastics to just to insist that I was wrong on even that specific point, when I'm not. But I've come to expect such nonsense from him. I told him to supply the language by the Supremes exhibiting original intent as their reasoning, he comes back not with that, but with an argument for a different point.

[DMC]

:rolleyes: You just can't even get out of the way of your own stupidity. To spell it out for you:

1) "he has a problem with our immigration laws, or the enforcement thereof."
2) therefore, "he is a racist"

I know you're probably unable to realize this, but that is logically identical to what you wrote. But, as they, say, bless your heart.Nope, not even close. Hell, you could do a 180 on your stance on immigration and you'd still be a racist. Own it.

Some people who disagree with me regarding immigration are racist (like you), while others are not (like Lynn Bodoni).

[ruadh]

So, unless you can show me where the Supremes specifically argued original intent in their decision, you're wrong.

From US v Wong Kim Ark:

The real object of the fourteenth amendment of the constitution, in qualifying the words 'all persons born in the United States' by the addition 'and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,' would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the national government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases,- children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation, and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign state,-both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law, from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country.

Sounds like original intent to me.

[digs]

My next door neighbors are Mexican, for the most part. If I didn't want to live near them, then I'd move. Either I'd move across town, or I'd move across the country. For the most part, I like my neighbors, except when they play excessively loud music, or when they let their dogs run loose in the neighborhood...

If you call it Mambo and say "Hola, perros", it's all a lot hipper.

[Lynn Bodoni]

Eh? It's not mambo, it's usually rap or Tejano. And why would I want to say hello to the dogs?

[Monty]

I'm guessing digs was translating the English slang "Yo, dog!" into Spanish.

[Ludovic]

Sup, dawg! (http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#es|en|lo%20que%20pasa%20perro%2C%20te%20escuch%C3%A9%2C%20como%20cruzar%20la%20frontera%20a%2 0fin%20de%20poner%20una%20valla%20en%20la%20cerca%20para%20que%20pueda%20saltar%20mientras%20saltas)

[Captain Amazing]

When you want to pass an unconstitutional law, you are attempting to ignore the highest law in the land.

Or they think the supreme court ruling is unjust and they're trying to challenge it.

[lepermesiah399]

Puntuation? Really u dumb fucks!!!!!! Open your eyes!!!!! FYI i am not racist!!! if you're white, black ,asian ,mexican,etc,etc. Does not matter to me and I can't stand Limbaugh either!!!! A piece of shit is a piece of shit!!!! If i do something illegal,am I not a criminal? And as a criminal do i not have my rights taken away? So if these fucks come here illegally, are they not criminals? I shorten U and Y just like everyone else because it is easier!!!!!!! if thats all YOU have to worry about, then do us all a favor and take the safety off, open wide and pull the fuckin trigger already!!!!!!!!!! Better yet go south of the border and do it, so they can rape your dying corpse!!!!!!

[lepermesiah399]

What you people fail to realize here is that these people come for the prosperity, but fail to educate themselves on what made this country such a great place to come to. When we lose sight of that and stop living by the ideals and traditions, language and flag that made this country great, its going to cease to be the great country it was for them to come to!!!! If they are so stubbornly proud of their language and and the mexican flag(how many cars do u see with their flag and old glory?) then why not stay in the country that they are so proud of? Stop defending these criminals who come here illegally. Or better yet, go there and try to voice your opinions and see if you don't disappear in the middle of the night,or end up at the wrong end of a firing squad....

[Ludovic]

Could you do me a favor, leper? Could you start supporting illegal immigrants instead? You're making me look bad.

[lepermesiah399]

Why is that ludovic? Do you think there should be more than one flag flown in this country? Do you like paying more than your fair share of taxes for people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions? It's dumb-ass people like you on this site that ask stupid questions like "Is America full?" DUH!!! I dont know,have you taken a look at the unemployment figures? I said nothing about LEGAL immigrants< yet its moronic people like you who want to defend these criminals?!!!!!!I see this one of two ways: either you are one or are marrying one so her or his sorry ass can stay here. They have child after child when they can't even feed the ones they have(without gov't assistance).It's just common sense that if you can"t support the ones you have then stop making more!!!! Or don"t expect hard working tax paying citizens to feed them for you!!!! I work my ass off just to pay for the house I live in. I don't go out and buy another one with expectations of the U.S. tax-payers to pay for it.Maybe if illegals hadn't been flowing into this country for so long the employment situation today would be different.Ever stop to think before you talk Mr. Mexico?

[Lynn Bodoni]

What Ludovic is saying is that he's* basically on the same side of the issue as you are...and you're embarrassing him mightily. Your stupidity, like a skunk's spray, is so overwhelming that anyone standing next to you will appear to stink as well.

*Or possibly she. I'm unsure of Ludovic's sex.

[lepermesiah399]

OMG!!!!! do you work for Fox news as well? Sorry ludvics mommy! Can he come out and play now? lofl

[PlainJain]

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/06/13/texas-gop-arizona/

(Lefty site warning! You know the drill....)

Not to be outdone, the Texas Republican Party takes careful aim at its foot with an automatic shotgun and does its level best to ensure that no self-respecting Hispanic ever again votes for one of their candidates.

When I lived there I believe the shotgun of choice was the Remington 870. That would be a pump action. The results are the same as you usually don't need a second shot.

[ElvisL1ves]

OMG!!!!! do you work for Fox news as well? Sorry ludvics mommy! Can he come out and play now? lofl
This can only end in tears.

[CBEscapee]

*Or possibly she. I'm unsure of Ludovic's sex.

IOW You don't know if it is Mister México or Señorita México???

:D

[Condescending Robot]

So now that Arizona is target Americans for harassment simply because of who their parents are, does anyone deny the folks in the Arizona state government are being racist bigots?

Apparently the administration of this board, which continues to allow racial slurs such as "anchor babies" to be thrown around willy-nilly by people who want to have serious debates about propositions like "Mexicans out of my neighborhood!"

[sleeping]

Apparently the administration of this board, which continues to allow racial slurs such as "anchor babies" to be thrown around willy-nilly by people who want to have serious debates about propositions like "Mexicans out of my neighborhood!"

This. I'm all for free debate and would oppose any kind of censorship on this board, but it should be clear to all that the term "anchor baby" (and the ideas that underpin it) is vile, dehumanizing, and completely inappropriate in civil discourse.

There are many people who would like to immigrate to the U.S., primarily for employment; and, if they have children while residing in this country, it would not be surprising if they used the existing laws to obtain citizenship. However, the idea that someone would sneak into the country to give birth to a child for the specific purpose of acquiring American citizenship is offensive and an attempt to place such people into a sub-human class that characterized every racist regime in history.

[Bricker]

However, the idea that someone would sneak into the country to give birth to a child for the specific purpose of acquiring American citizenship is offensive and an attempt to place such people into a sub-human class that characterized every racist regime in history.

But is it true?

You say it's offensive and represents an attempt to marginalize people.

But is it true? Obviously it's happened at least once, so perhaps it's true but vanishingly rare. Or perhaps it's significant.

[Polycarp]

But is it true?

You say it's offensive and represents an attempt to marginalize people.

But is it true? Obviously it's happened at least once, so perhaps it's true but vanishingly rare. Or perhaps it's significant.

Well, sir, sometimes you argue fairly, in pursuit of true justice; anyone who's read your posts will realize that. And at least once you've used your legal erudition in defense of the vilest of partisan scumbaggery. But is the frequency of the latter true but vanishingly rare? Or is it significant?

[Clothahump]

OMG!!!!! do you work for Fox news as well? Sorry ludvics mommy! Can he come out and play now? lofl


*Or possibly she. I'm unsure of Ludovic's sex.

Lynn may be unaware of Ludovic's sex, but I predict that if LeperMesiah keeps pissing in the pool like s/he is, Lynn will get out the Mod Knife of Neutering (tm) and Leper will join the third gender.

[Bricker]

Well, sir, sometimes you argue fairly, in pursuit of true justice; anyone who's read your posts will realize that. And at least once you've used your legal erudition in defense of the vilest of partisan scumbaggery. But is the frequency of the latter true but vanishingly rare? Or is it significant?

True, but quite rare. Not even vanishingly -- merely 'quite.'

[Clothahump]

However, the idea that someone would sneak into the country to give birth to a child for the specific purpose of acquiring American citizenship is offensive and an attempt to place such people into a sub-human class that characterized every racist regime in history.

Ummmm....Sleeping, I hate to bust your bubble, but yes - people do sneak into this country for the sole purpose of giving birth to a child in the USA so that the child does have American citizenship. Go check the hospitals along the Mexican border.

Here's just one instance:

Joe Riley is the CEO of the McAllen Texas Medical Center near the Texas-Mexico border. Forty percent of the children born there, nearly 2,400 last year, were the babies of illegal immigrants.

Riley has seen and heard it all.

"Mothers about to give birth that walk up to the hospital still wet from swimming across the river in actual labor … dirty, wet, cold," he said.

But here to have a child?

"Here to have a child in the U.S.," he said.

McAllen is part of a large hospital system. Like all hospitals, it is mandated by law to treat all emergency-room patients, not verify citizenship.

"We have uncompensated care of over $200 million a year," Riley said.

"Of money that you'll never see again?" Pitts asked.

"Yes," he said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/07/eveningnews/main4000401.shtml?source=related_story

[lepermesiah399]

Are you people comlpetely brainwashed? Or do you live in an igloo somewhere and are oblivious to what is becoming an epidemic in this country? I hope you enjoy speaking spanish and spending pesos, because at the rate it's going the hispanics who will be the majority(check the census for the fastest growing demographics)and who will they vote for? So when the 47th president is Rivera or Ortiz and congress is taking siestas and making laws in favor of unlimited assistance for families with unlimited babies,then what. I don't reek of stupidity, i bleed red white and blue!!!! So take your heads out of the sand!!!!

[Bridget Burke]

Ummmm....Sleeping, I hate to bust your bubble, but yes - people do sneak into this country for the sole purpose of giving birth to a child in the USA so that the child does have American citizenship. Go check the hospitals along the Mexican border.....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/07/eveningnews/main4000401.shtml?source=related_story

So, what is the problem with a baby having US citizenship? He or she can't "anchor" a parent in this country; an undocumented parent is still subject to deportation & the child will be deported, too. Until that child is an adult; if he or she is sufficiently prosperous, relatives can be sponsored.

Here's the website for that poor, beleaguered hospital (http://www.southtexashealthsystem.com/Facilities/McAllen-Medical-Center). How much of that uncompensated care is for aliens, legal or otherwise? And how much emergency room care is compensated? (At the jacked-up rates used for the uninsured.) Apparently enough for the hospital to boast of its Emergency Center.

Hey, this New Yorker article (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=all) from last year tries to explain why McAllen has the most expensive health care in the country. Immigration has nothing to do with it.

Edited to add: lepermesiah399, please continue to speak for your side!

[Really Not All That Bright]

Ummmm....Sleeping, I hate to bust your bubble, but yes - people do sneak into this country for the sole purpose of giving birth to a child in the USA so that the child does have American citizenship. Go check the hospitals along the Mexican border.

Here's just one instance:
That would appear to be a woman giving birth to a child in the US for the purpose of obtaining free medical care, not so that her child will be a US citizen.

Something that was addressed earlier in the thread is that the "anchor baby" concept doesn't actually work - a child cannot sponsor its parents for citizenship or even for residency until he/she hits 18. USCIS will happily deport the parents whether or not their minor child is a citizen, and they can decide whether the baby stays or goes.
I hope you enjoy speaking spanish and spending pesos, because at the rate it's going the hispanics who will be the majority(check the census for the fastest growing demographics)and who will they vote for?
Hispanics, a majority? Oh no! The white man is doomed.
FYI i am not racist!!!
Riiiight.

ETA: I see Bridget beat me to it on the anchor baby thing.

[eno801]

I have a hard time imagining a horde mothers about to pop swimming the Rio Grande. Cuz lord knows that's when your at your peak for swimming. such impeccable timing,too. Let's see I will time it so my water breaks during the swim, then walk a few blocks to give birth right at the hospitals door.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Well, it kind of explains why American workers can't compete with illegal immigrants.

[Death of Rats]

Are you people comlpetely brainwashed? Or do you live in an igloo somewhere and are oblivious to what is becoming an epidemic in this country? I hope you enjoy speaking spanish and spending pesos, because at the rate it's going the hispanics who will be the majority(check the census for the fastest growing demographics)and who will they vote for? So when the 47th president is Rivera or Ortiz and congress is taking siestas and making laws in favor of unlimited assistance for families with unlimited babies,then what. I don't reek of stupidity, i bleed red white and blue!!!! So take your heads out of the sand!!!!


Well, according to the US Census Bureau (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html), Hispanics make up 15.4% of the population and White, Non-hispanic account for 65.6% , so I think you have a few days to order your Spanish Rosetta Stone software before the Brown Horde™ take over.

[Eva Luna]

Something that was addressed earlier in the thread is that the "anchor baby" concept doesn't actually work - a child cannot sponsor its parents for citizenship or even for residency until he/she hits 18.

21, actually, but your point stands. (http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=4c2515d27cf73210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=4c2515d27cf73210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD)

[Bricker]

So, what is the problem with a baby having US citizenship? He or she can't "anchor" a parent in this country; an undocumented parent is still subject to deportation & the child will be deported, too. Until that child is an adult; if he or she is sufficiently prosperous, relatives can be sponsored.


Correct.

But note the difference between this argument and sleeping's, who denies that it happens. You say, "Yes, perhaps it happens, but what of it? There is very little benefit to be gained."

Having said that, I will point out two benefits: a baby with US citizenship now is an 18-year-old that can come to the US, start working, and send money back home in 18 years. That's a long view, but it's not nothing.

Secondly, many people argue that it's inhumane to split up families composed of both citizens and non-citizens. You point out that illegal immigrant parents with citizen children are subject to deportation; I am saying that many people regard this as cruel.

[Really Not All That Bright]

You point out that illegal immigrant parents with citizen children are subject to deportation; I am saying that many people regard this as cruel.
So what? It's not as though the child is going to be left behind, unless there's another family member here legally who can care for him - and even then, it's a sticky issue.

[CBEscapee]

Having said that, I will point out two benefits: a baby with US citizenship now is an 18-year-old that can come to the US, start working, and send money back home in 18 years. That's a long view, but it's not nothing.

Secondly, many people argue that it's inhumane to split up families composed of both citizens and non-citizens. You point out that illegal immigrant parents with citizen children are subject to deportation; I am saying that many people regard this as cruel.

I am not sure if I understood the part about sending money. Are you saying this is a negative?

And a good example that they do break up families is the case several weeks ago where a man was beaten to death (ruled a homicide by the SD coroner) by the Border Patrol in San Diego. He had 5 children born in the USA. But since they buried him there I suppose that could be considered an anchor in a black humor kind of way.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I am not sure if I understood the part about sending money. Are you saying this is a negative?
Well, speaking strictly from an American point of view, yes.

Sending money out of the US affects our balance of payments, since we're not getting anything back. I'm not sure that the amounts we're talking about are enough to make an appreciable difference in terms of foreign exchange, and the like, but it certainly doesn't do the US any good.

[magellan01]

Grist for the mill. (http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters4608)

In Parkland Memorial Hospital Dallas, the second busiest maternity ward in the United States, 70% of the women giving birth were illegal aliens. That added up to 11,200 babies for which Medicaid kicked in 34.5 million dollars to deliver these babies, the feds another 9.5 million and Dallas taxpayers tossed in 31.3 million. The average illegal patient is 25 years and giving birth to her second anchor baby.

Reiniers, John. Hernando Today, "Anchor Babies." January 25, 2008

[Really Not All That Bright]

A link to FAIR quoting a Florida county newspaper? Really?

[Algher]

I first heard the term "anchor baby" when Hong Kong was about to be handed back to China. There were (supposedly) many wealthy Hong Kong residents coming to the US on tourist visas to give birth so that their children would have US Citizenship.

[magellan01]

A link to FAIR quoting a Florida county newspaper? Really?

Really!

[lepermesiah399]

Well, according to the US Census Bureau (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html), Hispanics make up 15.4% of the population and White, Non-hispanic account for 65.6% , so I think you have a few days to order your Spanish Rosetta Stone software before the Brown Horde™ take over.

So when Obama gives amnesty or legal citzenship to how many? what will the %'s look like then.Once again are you one,marrying one, or employing many to line your own pocket?

[Really Not All That Bright]

I first heard the term "anchor baby" when Hong Kong was about to be handed back to China. There were (supposedly) many wealthy Hong Kong residents coming to the US on tourist visas to give birth so that their children would have US Citizenship.
Wikipedia says it originated with the Vietnamese boat people in the 80s.

[ElvisL1ves]

So when Obama gives amnesty or legal citzenship to how many? what will the %'s look like then.Um, okay, just for yucks: Why would it matter?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Because some people have great difficulty conjugating verbs in Romance languages?

[CBEscapee]

Well, speaking strictly from an American point of view, yes.

Sending money out of the US affects our balance of payments, since we're not getting anything back. I'm not sure that the amounts we're talking about are enough to make an appreciable difference in terms of foreign exchange, and the like, but it certainly doesn't do the US any good.

You do that personally every time you buy a foreign made object. And as far as getting anything back, we are one of your largest trading partners. We buy a lot of the things you sell so in an indirect way some of that money does come back to you.

And a person's money is their own private property. It doesn't belong to the country or the government. What gives anyone else the right to tell them how to spend it? I am sure you would complain vigorously if someone told you what you can do with your private property. Where is this freedom and liberty Americans are so proud of?

Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are spending many millions of US dollars in other parts of the world. Is this considered a negative?

[Really Not All That Bright]

You do that personally every time you buy a foreign made object. And as far as getting anything back, we are one of your largest trading partners. We buy a lot of the things you sell so in an indirect way some of that money does come back to you.
That is certainly the case, and as you may have noticed, there is a strong current of feeling in the US at present that we ought to be buying American-made products. This phenomenon occurs all the time, of course, especially when the economy is down.
And a person's money is their own private property. It doesn't belong to the country or the government. What gives anyone else the right to tell them how to spend it? I am sure you would complain vigorously if someone told you what you can do with your private property. Where is this freedom and liberty Americans are so proud of?
Nobody is telling anyone they can't spend their money however they like. You asked why sending money home would be a negative. I'm telling you. Chill the fuck out.
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are spending many millions of US dollars in other parts of the world. Is this considered a negative?
Depends what they're spending it on, obviously.

[CBEscapee]

Chill the fuck out.

Depends what they're spending it on, obviously.

Why the hostility?

People are proposing a change to your Constitution to remove the jus solis birthright of citizenship and one of the arguments is because they might send money out of the country.


So your rich can send money overseas and it depends on what it is for if it is to be viewed as negative. Another US citizen sends money out of the country to help relatives and that is a negative. And one more reason to deny citizenship based on being born within your borders. Nope. Their is no bigotry involved in that.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I happen to be an immigrant myself, and not a citizen, at that, so I have a somewhat different perspective on the issue.

[The Tooth]

Um, okay, just for yucks: Why would it matter?

They only bleed red! Not red, white and blue like your noble patriotic opponent. What kind of America would you have if fewer people bled red, white, and blue?

[Lynn Bodoni]

You do that personally every time you buy a foreign made object. And as far as getting anything back, we are one of your largest trading partners. We buy a lot of the things you sell so in an indirect way some of that money does come back to you. When I buy a widget that's made in Outer Plutonia, then I don't just send the money to OP. I get a widget, which I consider to be of equal or greater value than the amount of money that I spent on it. The scales balance. Both OP and the US have gained something of approximately equal value.

When my neighbor, who is an immigrant (legal or illegal, in this case it doesn't matter) sends a remittance to her father in Outer Plutonia, she does NOT receive anything of monetary value. She only receives the warm fuzzies of knowing that she's helped Dear Old Dad make it in the tough Outer Plutonian economy. Outer Plutonia gets a little richer, because Dear Old Dad has a little more money to spend, and the US gets a little poorer, because Dutiful Daughter has less money to spend.

[CBEscapee]

When I buy a widget that's made in Outer Plutonia, then I don't just send the money to OP. I get a widget, which I consider to be of equal or greater value than the amount of money that I spent on it. The scales balance. Both OP and the US have gained something of approximately equal value.


It is all so simple right? Ever heard of a trade deficit?

Or how about George Clooney (pick whatever rich paisano you care to) spends millions of dollars on a mansion in Italy. What did you gain there? He takes his hard earned US dollars and throws extravagant parties. Unless you got invited you or your country didn't gain a thing.

But you needn't go so far, there are thousands of American citizens residing in México at this moment spending their Social Security checks each month. Put that in you coin slot and save it.

[ElvisL1ves]

the US gets a little poorer, because Dutiful Daughter has less money to spend.That ignores her own contributions to the US economy, including multiplier effects, resulting from the work she did to earn that money in the first place. Work which is the primary reason for her coming here in the first place. Do you really think the US would be better off overall without that?

After all these centuries of being a land of immigrants (you or your ancestors included), and with all the wonderful results we have experienced from that, have we really reached the point of wanting to pull the ladder back up with us?

[Bridget Burke]

When I buy a widget that's made in Outer Plutonia, then I don't just send the money to OP. I get a widget, which I consider to be of equal or greater value than the amount of money that I spent on it. The scales balance. Both OP and the US have gained something of approximately equal value.

When my neighbor, who is an immigrant (legal or illegal, in this case it doesn't matter) sends a remittance to her father in Outer Plutonia, she does NOT receive anything of monetary value. She only receives the warm fuzzies of knowing that she's helped Dear Old Dad make it in the tough Outer Plutonian economy. Outer Plutonia gets a little richer, because Dear Old Dad has a little more money to spend, and the US gets a little poorer, because Dutiful Daughter has less money to spend.

Yeah, it's an old story (http://museum.cl.msu.edu/Exhibitions/Virtual/ImmigrationandCaricature/7572-133.html).

By the way, that "Outer Plutonia" is just a bit too cute. We know you're talking about the Mexicans. And we've been told the Mexicans just won't assimilate, unlike the earlier immigrants (http://museum.cl.msu.edu/Exhibitions/Virtual/ImmigrationandCaricature/7572-126.html). There are always a few agitators (http://museum.cl.msu.edu/Exhibitions/Virtual/ImmigrationandCaricature/7572-225.html) & newcomers who don't know their place (http://museum.cl.msu.edu/Exhibitions/Virtual/ImmigrationandCaricature/7572-129.html) in society.

How soon they (http://museum.cl.msu.edu/Exhibitions/Virtual/ImmigrationandCaricature/7572-749.html) forget.

[Really Not All That Bright]

It is all so simple right? Ever heard of a trade deficit?
I imagine she has. It doesn't mean it isn't something she wants to avoid.
Or how about George Clooney (pick whatever rich paisano you care to) spends millions of dollars on a mansion in Italy. What did you gain there? He takes his hard earned US dollars and throws extravagant parties. Unless you got invited you or your country didn't gain a thing.

But you needn't go so far, there are thousands of American citizens residing in México at this moment spending their Social Security checks each month. Put that in you coin slot and save it.
Most of us would rather George Clooney stayed in America and continued churning out Ocean's movies.

[CBEscapee]

I imagine she has. It doesn't mean it isn't something she wants to avoid.

Most of us would rather George Clooney stayed in America and continued churning out Ocean's movies.

Yes but no one wants to take away any of his rights now, do they?

And your fellow countrymen in México? Are they to be denied their hard earned pensions because they choose to spend it outside of the USA?

[eno801]

yeah how soon they forget. like I mentioned upthread the anti-immigrant stand from latinos only comes into play 3 or 4 generations down. guess you could say they truly are american now.

[lepermesiah399]

That's all I'm trying to say!! Did we bend over backwards to have signs,school papers,advertisements,etc.etc. in Italian,Polish,Chinese,or any other language? No, the immigrants from these countries came here to BECOME a part of a great nation.They HAD to learn to speak American. Not any time I was in school did parent notification papers come home in English and (insert native land of your choice here). So why the back-breaking,bend over system for hispanics? Divided we stand? Is that how it went? Everyone wants to quote this and paraphrase that, but does it not say that english would be the only language of this once great land? I'm all for letting anyone work here, but not if there are hundreds on the street corner saying" Si' I hab twelb guys in my cheby ban who will do it off de boooks for less pesos. eh hm I means doolars.

[Really Not All That Bright]

And your fellow countrymen in México? Are they to be denied their hard earned pensions because they choose to spend it outside of the USA?
Of course not. And despite the argument you've been having with strawmen for a page or so, nobody is suggesting that Mexicans or anyone else in the US should not be allowed to spend their money elsewhere.
So why the back-breaking,bend over system for hispanics? Divided we stand? Is that how it went? Everyone wants to quote this and paraphrase that, but does it not say that english would be the only language of this once great land?
Where does it say that English would be the only language of this once great land? :dubious:

[ElvisL1ves]

I remember my first beer, too.

[Bridget Burke]

That's all I'm trying to say!! Did we bend over backwards to have signs,school papers,advertisements,etc.etc. in Italian,Polish,Chinese,or any other language? No, the immigrants from these countries came here to BECOME a part of a great nation.They HAD to learn to speak American. Not any time I was in school did parent notification papers come home in English and (insert native land of your choice here). So why the back-breaking,bend over system for hispanics? Divided we stand? Is that how it went? Everyone wants to quote this and paraphrase that, but does it not say that english would be the only language of this once great land? I'm all for letting anyone work here, but not if there are hundreds on the street corner saying" Si' I hab twelb guys in my cheby ban who will do it off de boooks for less pesos. eh hm I means doolars.

"speak American"?

Oh, the example you gave is a guy speaking English, even though you've tried to represent some kind of Jose Jimenez accent.

Your style has improved since your first posts, but you can hardly represent yourself as an advocate for the beautiful English language.

[LonesomePolecat]

It justs shows what a heaping pile of hypocrisy you are. Your bigoted little pea brain freaks out because a person from a race you consider inferior crosses some imaginary line in the sand but you can send your young men half way around the world to kill other inferior people.Considering how strictly Mexico enforces its own laws about people crossing "imaginary lines", any Mexican complaining about the United States enforcing its own borders has absolutely no moral grounds on which to stand. If you claim the right to freely enter our country, you have no business denying others the right to freely enter yours.

But it's not really about what's right or fair, is it, CB? It's about getting as much as possible for Mexicans at the expense of Americans. It isn't about moral principles at all.

[lepermesiah399]

Oh, I'm sorry we all couldn't go to Harvard. I had to start working at 14 to send money to my legal immigrant parents who, by the way, spent that money here to keep this economy going.And if you must know,(I know you're not supposed to start a sentence with and)I believe their first purchase was an American flag made right here. Now go ahead and say something about my speech or punctuationbecause thats the issue here!!!! ooops i 4got an apostrophe a comma and i spelled forgot wrong OMG lofl

[LonesomePolecat]

Why? Are holders of green cards required by law to carry them at all times? Or only to present them when applying for a job? (Not hand- or blow-, just a job.)
Resident aliens in the United States are expected to carry proper documentation at all times. That requirement may or many not include a green card.

[Bridget Burke]

Oh, I'm sorry we all couldn't go to Harvard. I had to start working at 14 to send money to my legal immigrant parents who, by the way, spent that money here to keep this economy going.And if you must know,(I know you're not supposed to start a sentence with and)I believe their first purchase was an American flag made right here. Now go ahead and say something about my speech or punctuationbecause thats the issue here!!!! ooops i 4got an apostrophe a comma and i spelled forgot wrong OMG lofl

So--you were in some other country at 14, sending your money to your "legal immigrant" parents in the USA? That's cold.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Resident aliens in the United States are expected to carry proper documentation at all times. That requirement may or many not include a green card.
Resident aliens are required to carry proper documentation at all times. Nobody expects them to.

I've had to present my green card four times in 14 years (not including at airports). Once to get my driver's license, once to get a replacement Social Security card, and twice to get jobs.

[Bricker]

Resident aliens are required to carry proper documentation at all times. Nobody expects them to.


"You were serious about that?"

[/Joe Pesci as Vinny Gambino]

My wife is a permanent resident, and she carries her card every day, everywhere she goes.

Because, you see, she heard that's what the law required her to do.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Good luck to her if she loses it. It's $280 or $370 to replace a lost or stolen one.

[LonesomePolecat]

Resident aliens are required to carry proper documentation at all times. Nobody expects them to. But they should be expected to.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Quite possibly- but you're talking about 30 years' worth of habit for some people, and it's not as though USCIS is sending out letters saying, "hey, start carrying your green cards". Hell, I didn't even know it was a requirement until somebody mentioned it in an Arizona thread.

[Condescending Robot]

I guess we can thank all the not-racists who are totally OK with everything except illegality for all the fine "goddamn Mexicans corrupting the white race" posts on the last two pages.

[descamisado]

But they have Mexican flags on their cars! Aren't you a-scared!?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Yeah! At least the French use God's color scheme.

[Bricker]

Good luck to her if she loses it. It's $280 or $370 to replace a lost or stolen one.

Yes.

And?

Surely you don't mean to suggest that the cost of a replacement is some sort of defense for not obeying the law concerning carrying it?

[Really Not All That Bright]

A legal defense, no. Considering that many people don't even carry their original Social Security cards, which are free, it's certainly a reasonable position to take, however.

A much better defense is the fact that nobody is ever going to make an unanticipated request to see it, unless your wife has the poor fortune of visiting Arizona.

[Polycarp]

Resident aliens are required to carry proper documentation at all times. Nobody expects them to.

I've had to present my green card four times in 14 years (not including at airports). Once to get my driver's license, once to get a replacement Social Security card, and twice to get jobs.

Of course they do. By now, everyone ought to expect the Hispanic inquistion.

And while it's a cute pun, it's not purely there for the yaks. Because other than in Monty Python sketches, tell me what your first reaction to the Inquisition is -- favorable or unfavorable.

[Bricker]

A legal defense, no. Considering that many people don't even carry their original Social Security cards, which are free, it's certainly a reasonable position to take, however.



So far as I know, there is no legal requirement to carry your original Social Security card.

A much better defense is the fact that nobody is ever going to make an unanticipated request to see it, unless your wife has the poor fortune of visiting Arizona.

How is that a defense?

PROSECUTOR: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the evidence in this trial will show that the accused did not possess his green card, even though the law requires that he carry it with him.

DEFENSE COUNSEL: The prosecution will tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that my client did not possess his green card, even though the law requires that he carry it with him. But what they won't tell you, what they don't want you to know, what will absolutely excuse my client from any wrongdoing, is simply this fact: he didn't think he'd be asked for it!

Thank you.

DEFENDANT: Um... is it too late to get another lawyer?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Under what circumstances was the defendant charged with failing to carry his green card?

[Bricker]

Under what circumstances was the defendant charged with failing to carry his green card?

There was an immigration raid of a construction site. The defendant, who worked next door as an accounting supervisor, was on his lunch break, and yelled at the federal officers to go enforce real law. The immigration officer responded that the defendant didn't know what he was talking about. The defendant then volunteered the information the he himself was an immigrant, a permanent resident, and was thus well aware of the perils of immigration policy. The immigration officer then asked the defendant if he was carrying his green card, and the defendant replied that he was not, because no one ever asks for it.

At that point, the defendant was placed under arrest and subsequently charged with violation of 8 USC § 1304(e).

[Really Not All That Bright]

Now, what do you think the chances of your wife or I getting in a screaming match with ICE officials is?

[CBEscapee]

Now, what do you think the chances of your wife or I getting in a screaming match with ICE officials is?

That doesn't matter. You are a criminal alien and all patriotic Americans should demand your deportation upon completion of your sentence.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Shhh. I've almost got them trusting me.

[eno801]

before I was naturalized I stopped carrying mine after losing it twice. (once really my girlfriend took my wallet to go pick up some breakfast and left my wallet somewhere the second time) . Of all the resident aliens I know which is a buttload, I only know two that carry it all the time. We got a lot of lawbreakers it seems.

[Hyperelastic]

That doesn't matter. You are a criminal alien and all patriotic Americans should demand your deportation upon completion of your sentence.

Don't say "criminal alien"; that's so cold. Say "Future Democrat".

[Lynn Bodoni]

I guess I'm the only person, then, who's carried her driver's license around in her wallet at all times for nearly 40 years? During that time, I've had my wallet stolen twice, and yes, it was a PITA to get everything taken care of. I'm sure it's even more of a pain in the ass to get a green card replaced...but getting a military ID card replaced is no picnic, either.

[Eva Luna]

I'm sure it's even more of a pain in the ass to get a green card replaced...

In Texas, it's currently taking nearly 7 months (http://aila.org/content/default.aspx?docid=32263) to get a green card replaced, plus it costs $290, (http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=b3f7ab0a43b5d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=db029c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD) and possibly requires time off work to have photos and prints taken.

And in the meantime, if you're lucky and take more time off work to go to USCIS in person, they'll take mercy on you and put a temporary stamp in your passport indicating that you are, in fact, a permanent resident. (Provided you actually have a valid passport. If not, you either have to wait until the receipt notice shows up in the mail, which can take a month or longer, or just cross your fingers that nobody asks for proof of your immigration status.)

[Really Not All That Bright]

I guess I'm the only person, then, who's carried her driver's license around in her wallet at all times for nearly 40 years? During that time, I've had my wallet stolen twice, and yes, it was a PITA to get everything taken care of. I'm sure it's even more of a pain in the ass to get a green card replaced...but getting a military ID card replaced is no picnic, either.
No, but you're the only person who thinks a $50 driver's license you can be asked for on any given day and a $400 green card you'll never be asked for without warning are equivalent.

[Condescending Robot]

No, but you're the only person who thinks a $50 driver's license you can be asked for on any given day and a $400 green card you'll never be asked for without warning are equivalent.

Also, the purpose of driver's licensure is not to intentionally create hardships to complying with the law in order to make it easier to jail or deport people; the purpose of $400 green cards is.

Immigration official is right up there with prison guard in terms of jobs for people who really get off on toying with the less powerful.

[Monty]

The last two posts are more opinion than fact. The fundamental difference between a driver license and an alien registration card is that the driver license does not prove that the person to whom it was issued has legal entry into the country. The ARC thus is subject to more rigorous anticounterfeiting measures and that contributes to the cost of the thing.

The fee for replacement of a lost card has nothing to do with equivalency as proof of identification. I currently carry the following cards which prove identity:

Retired Military Identificationi Card.
US Passport
Alien Registration Card
Driver's License

Unsurprisingly, the fee for replacing these items varies depending on the item. A friend here recenly lost her wallet and had to get her Korean National Identity Card replaced, for which there is no fee--it's free. On the other hand, if I have to pay to replace my ARC, it will cost me 100,000 won. The passport will cost $100.

Of course, there are other factors going into the cost of the identification than anticounterfeiting features. No doubt, one thing is the number of people involved in processing the request for replacement, etc. The fees aren't (are at least shouldn't be) pulled out of thin air.

The comment about prison guards is no better than the biased comments condemning all police. In words: It's just plain ignorant.

And, Lynn Bodoni, you're not the only one who's carried their card around all that time. I've always carried my driver license and military ID with me. Since I've moved overseas, I also always carry my ARC, as required by law, with me.

[Lynn Bodoni]

No, but you're the only person who thinks a $50 driver's license you can be asked for on any given day and a $400 green card you'll never be asked for without warning are equivalent. I didn't say that they were that equivalent, only that carrying a document/ID is similar. I was saying that I have managed to keep track of the damned thing, despite carrying it around all the time, and that it's not a particular burden to do so. We had a couple of people implying that carrying a green card around is risky, and that they are easy to lose. My experience is otherwise, and I'm famous for losing cards.

[Really Not All That Bright]

They're no easier to lose than any other type of identification. The point is that they're much more difficult and expensive to replace than other forms of identification - and that, again, you have a reasonable expectation of being asked to produce a driver's license on any given day, which is not the case with a green card.

[Giles]

Resident aliens are required to carry proper documentation at all times. Nobody expects them to.

I've had to present my green card four times in 14 years (not including at airports). Once to get my driver's license, once to get a replacement Social Security card, and twice to get jobs.
I've had a green card for 8 years. Apart from using it to enter the U.S., the only time I've needed to present it was why my employer asked everyone working for it to produce evidence that they had the right to work in the U.S.

(I got my Ohio driver's license before I had a green card, when I had a temporary employment visa, so I presented my passport with that visa inside as evidence that I resided in the U.S. legally.)

I used to carry my green card in my wallet at all times, but I've stopped bothering with that, since no law enforcement officer ever seems interested in me.

[Bricker]

Now, what do you think the chances of your wife or I getting in a screaming match with ICE officials is?

For my wife, perhaps 2.5%. Don't know about you.

[magellan01]

No, but you're the only person who thinks a $50 driver's license you can be asked for on any given day and a $400 green card you'll never be asked for without warning are equivalent.

No, she's not. They're not exactly the same, but similar.

[Really Not All That Bright]

As in, they're forms of identification and fit comfortably into a wallet, perhaps.

[lepermesiah399]

So--you were in some other country at 14, sending your money to your "legal immigrant" parents in the USA? That's cold.

Never said I was in another country!!!! Is in not possilble to send money within the U.S.? just like always you(meaning 80% of the zombies on this site) read with blinders on!!!! I'm all for the great melting pot. It's what made this country great in the first place. Only thing is that we seem to be skipping the blackening process which brings out most of the impurities!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HazelNutCoffee]

Only thing is that we seem to be skipping the blackening process which brings out most of the impurities!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Uh, what? What impurities are you referring to?

[descamisado]

Muddied English?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Blackening doesn't bring out any impurities. It adds a layer to finished metal items to prevent corrosion.

[Fear Itself]

Blackening filters out all the sweet, sweet, exclamation marks, which leper keeps in his underpants until he lets them fly on the unsuspecting reader. Bazinga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[descamisado]

All we need now is a Super Bazinga.

And shit.

[lepermesiah399]

Uuuhhh, the illegal ones. Uhh the ones who refuse the great traditions of this country, but won"t refuse free medical care or a welfare check to save lives!!!! UUhhh the ones that crowd our prisons with gang activity,with no regard for human life(hispanic or otherwise).UUhhh the ones who want or need assistance for the children THEY laid and maid, and keep having more!!!UUhhhh and YOU

[Bridget Burke]

Uuuhhh, the illegal ones. Uhh the ones who refuse the great traditions of this country, but won"t refuse free medical care or a welfare check to save lives!!!! UUhhh the ones that crowd our prisons with gang activity,with no regard for human life(hispanic or otherwise).UUhhh the ones who want or need assistance for the children THEY laid and maid, and keep having more!!!UUhhhh and YOU

In the old days, you would have been a Know Nothing!

[Fear Itself]

UUhhh the ones that crowd our prisons with gang activity,with no regard for human life(hispanic or otherwise).Lou Dobbs, is that you?

In any case, illegal immigrants do not "crowd our prisons (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/business/30leonside.html)":In 2000, 4.6 percent of inmates in state prisons were noncitizens. This number remained quite steady over the next five years, right around 4.6 percent.

Over all — combining federal and state prisons — 6.4 percent of the nation’s prisoners were noncitizens in 2005. This is down from 6.8 percent in 2000.

By comparison, 6.9 percent of the total United States population were noncitizens in 2003, according (http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/foreign/acst2.html#cit) to the Census Bureau (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/census_bureau/index.html?inline=nyt-org).
And those figures are for all noncitizens, not just the illegal ones. Noncitizens make up a smaller percentage of the prison population than the general population, so it seems we should be deporting some other demographic if you want to relieve the prison population.

[Bricker]

Lou Dobbs, is that you?

In any case, illegal immigrants do not "crowd our prisons (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/business/30leonside.html)":And those figures are for all noncitizens, not just the illegal ones. Noncitizens make up a smaller percentage of the prison population than the general population, so it seems we should be deporting some other demographic if you want to relieve the prison population.


Might want to look just at federal: the numbers are a bit different (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf):

At the federal level, the number of criminal aliens incarcerated increased
from about 42,000 at the end of calendar year 2001 to about 49,000 at the
end of calendar year 2004—a 15 percent increase. The percentage of all
federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has remained the same over the
last 3 years—about 27 percent.

So: state prisons (4.6 percent). Combining state and federal prisons (6.4 percent). And the federal number is 27 percent.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Of course, Federal inmates make up something like 5% of the prison population, so that's totally equivalent.

[Bricker]

Of course, Federal inmates make up something like 5% of the prison population, so that's totally equivalent.

Depends. Certainly it's not beyond the bounds of fair commentary to say the incarcerated aliens "crowd our prisons," if we're talking about federal prisons. Equally obviously, it's unfair to say that about the entire prison population.

So we started with a claim that was, at best, too unspecific to evaluate. Fear Itself offered some data to evaluate it, and I added some additional data. Now we have a complete picture instead of an inchoate, baseless claim: our total prison population is not "crowded" with aliens, at 6.4 percent, but the federal system could be described that way, with 27 percent.

Is that not fair?

[Fear Itself]

Depends. Certainly it's not beyond the bounds of fair commentary to say the incarcerated aliens "crowd our prisons," if we're talking about federal prisons. Equally obviously, it's unfair to say that about the entire prison population.

So we started with a claim that was, at best, too unspecific to evaluate. Fear Itself offered some data to evaluate it, and I added some additional data. Now we have a complete picture instead of an inchoate, baseless claim: our total prison population is not "crowded" with aliens, at 6.4 percent, but the federal system could be described that way, with 27 percent.

Is that not fair?Depends. How many alien federal prisoners are illegal? That was the context of the original claim. At the state level, it is not really relevant, because the 4.6% for alien prisoners is already quite low. But the significance of the 27% federal alien prisoner figure is speculative, because we do not know how many of those are here illegally.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Actually, we do - it came up in a prior thread - but I can't find it.

[Bricker]

Depends. How many alien federal prisoners are illegal? That was the context of the original claim. At the state level, it is not really relevant, because the 4.6% for alien prisoners is already quite low. But the significance of the 27% federal alien prisoner figure is speculative, because we do not know how many of those are here illegally.

Good point. If 26% of the federal prison population is aliens already in violation of immigration law before their crime, then it's meaningful; if 1 percent of the federal prison population is aliens already in violation of immigration law before their crime, then it's useless.

I have no idea. So this is an unproven claim.

[lepermesiah399]

OK so we've settled on 5%? Since I'm a know nothing Miss Burke, do YOU know the cost of running all the prisons in the U.S.? I'm pretty sure that 5% of that WOULD be a signifigant number no? Just like always the people on here want to minimize everything, which leads me to believe they haven't been affected by illegals and the constant flow of hispanics in the U.S. Give it time, at the rate it's going, Curious Georges' statement that they only want the meanial,low paying jobs will no longer be true.It's only a matter of time until they want YOUR job, and they just might get it(not because they are better suited for it,but because they are a minority) then what? As an American union contractor I am forced to hire minorities, but I have seen many of 100% hispanic companies that are not forced to hire the real minority(American flag flying,English speaking,lets leave some summer jobs for college kids instead of hiring a bunch of mexicans,hard working Americans!!!) P.S. before you read this with blinders on...I said Americans, not hard working white men only, so I just wanted to emphasize that before you turn it around and make me look like a white supremesist. As I've stated before I'm all for LEGAL immigration.It's what made this country great in the first place.I can sympathize with wanting to leave a horrible way of life for the promise of a better way of life. What I do not understand is not wanting to participate in what made it a better way of life.If I were to leave a shit job for a better condition and better paying job, should I bring all the shit from the one that I left?....JUst a thought

[Monty]

What we have above is an example of a failure to communicate. I'm fairly certain I saw some English phrases in that post; however, they didn't seem to actually point to anything.

[Bridget Burke]

OK so we've settled on 5%? Since I'm a know nothing Miss Burke, do YOU know the cost of running all the prisons in the U.S.? I'm pretty sure that 5% of that WOULD be a signifigant number no? Just like always the people on here want to minimize everything, which leads me to believe they haven't been affected by illegals and the constant flow of hispanics in the U.S. Give it time, at the rate it's going, Curious Georges' statement that they only want the meanial,low paying jobs will no longer be true.It's only a matter of time until they want YOUR job, and they just might get it(not because they are better suited for it,but because they are a minority) then what? As an American union contractor I am forced to hire minorities, but I have seen many of 100% hispanic companies that are not forced to hire the real minority(American flag flying,English speaking,lets leave some summer jobs for college kids instead of hiring a bunch of mexicans,hard working Americans!!!) P.S. before you read this with blinders on...I said Americans, not hard working white men only, so I just wanted to emphasize that before you turn it around and make me look like a white supremesist. As I've stated before I'm all for LEGAL immigration.It's what made this country great in the first place.I can sympathize with wanting to leave a horrible way of life for the promise of a better way of life. What I do not understand is not wanting to participate in what made it a better way of life.If I were to leave a shit job for a better condition and better paying job, should I bring all the shit from the one that I left?....JUst a thought

Let me guess: You're one of those "English Only" folks. Too bad you obviously failed every English class you ever took. Your piss-poor spelling, usage & formatting will not convince anybody here at the Liberal Elitist SDMB to give you more than a sneer.

You also flunked History: Read up on the Know Nothings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing).

Oh, and that's Ms Burke!

[lepermesiah399]

aNd tHaTs WhAt i is talkin bout U pic little stuff out so u dont have 2 look at the big picture> r u such an elitist that u must comment on puntuation and english? MS. BURKE. maybe ther is a reason y its MS. BURKE and will always be MS. BURKE. lofl. FYI i havent had to conjugate a verb since enlish class,so that was a waste of many hours> but i do have a few ideas as to what u can do with my dangling paticiple

[Rhythmdvl]

[L]eads me to believe they haven't been affected by illegals and the constant flow of hispanics in the U.S. Yes. Cheap produce. Cheap labor. All sorts of wonderful benefits of a capitalistic society. Artificial restrictions on the labor market raise prices and increase unemployment. Why are you anti-free markets?

Give it time, at the rate it's going, Curious Georges' statement that they only want the meanial,low paying jobs will no longer be true.It's only a matter of time until they want YOUR job, and they just might get it
Yeah, isn't America great? Unlike nations that came before, people aren't locked into the lower caste. They can come here as menial workers, arrive at the very lowest rung of the socioeconomic ladder, but since the law (in theory) treats all people equally, just a generation or two later the wonderful country is enriched by immigrants' presence and a generation of immigrants begins to enrich themselves on the greatness that is this land of opportunity. That upward mobility is what made our country an industrial power.


I just wanted to emphasize that before you turn it around and make me look like a white supremesist. Not sure you look like a white supremacist. Ignorant, yes. Lacking historical perspective? Clearly. Painfully short of rudimentary critical thinking skills? Certainly.

[Ludovic]

aNd tHaTs WhAt i is talkin bout U pic little stuff out so u dont have 2 look at the big picture> r u such an elitist that u must comment on puntuation and english? MS. BURKE. maybe ther is a reason y its MS. BURKE and will always be MS. BURKE. lofl. FYI i havent had to conjugate a verb since enlish class,so that was a waste of many hours> but i do have a few ideas as to what u can do with my dangling paticipleEnglish fail.

[Bridget Burke]

aNd tHaTs WhAt i is talkin bout U pic little stuff out so u dont have 2 look at the big picture> r u such an elitist that u must comment on puntuation and english? MS. BURKE. maybe ther is a reason y its MS. BURKE and will always be MS. BURKE. lofl. FYI i havent had to conjugate a verb since enlish class,so that was a waste of many hours> but i do have a few ideas as to what u can do with my dangling paticiple

I can understand why you're so concerned about losing your job. Somehow, I doubt your comprehension of "the big picture" is superior to mine.

And I'll decline your invitation, having learned years ago not to bother about small things. (Especially the ones that can do nothing but dangle.)

[Bricker]

MS. BURKE. maybe ther is a reason y its MS. BURKE and will always be MS. BURKE.

That's right, honey. You get yourself prettied up and forget all this punctuation and grammar nonsense, and maybe you'll get yourself a man.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Just make sure he isn't Mexican!

[lepermesiah399]

Somehow I think that you think there is nothing in this world that is superior to your way of thinking about anything. however(did I forget a capital lofl) I do understand supply and demand, and the reason there are no supply of jobs in THIS country is because no one demands that ILLEGALS get deported. P.S. Bricker I don't think she cares if he's mexican, but he better make sure he uses the right fork for his salad or he's in a world of shit.I can go on all day, and your silly jabs do not hurt my feelings... luckily I erect high rise bldgs. and bridges and most people of all nationalities are afraid of heights. So i am not worried about your gardener taking my job.But I do worry about him coming around while your on vacation and emptying the contents of your house.... gl

[Really Not All That Bright]

No, the reason there is no supply of jobs in this country is because we're in a recession. There were lots of jobs before the recession, and there were more illegals.

In addition to grammar, you fail at identifying cause and effect.

[Bridget Burke]

Somehow I think that you think there is nothing in this world that is superior to your way of thinking about anything. however(did I forget a capital lofl) I do understand supply and demand, and the reason there are no supply of jobs in THIS country is because no one demands that ILLEGALS get deported. P.S. Bricker I don't think she cares if he's mexican, but he better make sure he uses the right fork for his salad or he's in a world of shit.I can go on all day, and your silly jabs do not hurt my feelings... luckily I erect high rise bldgs. and bridges and most people of all nationalities are afraid of heights. So i am not worried about your gardener taking my job.But I do worry about him coming around while your on vacation and emptying the contents of your house.... gl

I'm glad you've taken my advice; this message is almost readable.

Why aren't those who hire illegal aliens given stiff fines & jail time?

By the way: I do my own gardening. But I do eat out occasionally & most restaurant kitchens are full of Mexicans--legal & not. Knowing this, I'm sure you cook all your own food. (Or let The Little Woman do it.)

[ElvisL1ves]

How about this - you can rant to us about immigrants speaking English when you learn the language yourself, hmm?

[Buck Godot]

Might want to look just at federal: the numbers are a bit different (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf):



So: state prisons (4.6 percent). Combining state and federal prisons (6.4 percent). And the federal number is 27 percent.

The discrepancy between these numbers seems surprisingly large. Is there any information about what federal crimes these immigrants are being held for? If most are being held for immigration issues, than the argument would seem rather circular. Even if its for drug trafficking this is hardly surprising. One would expect extra nationals to be more likely to be involved in extra-national smuggling, but it doesn't say anything against the guy working as a busboy.

[Really Not All That Bright]

It's sort of a circular argument, but sort of not. The numbers are low in state prisons because suspects who are also illegal aliens may simply be handed over to ICE without wasting time trying them for minor non-immigration-related crimes.

The numbers are high in federal prisons because lots of them are immigration violators. On the other hand, they have to do something besides enter the country illegally to be in federal prison, since otherwise they'd be in federal custody (or already deported).

[Sampiro]

Why aren't those who hire illegal aliens given stiff fines & jail time?


That's the gazillion dollar question of the whole issue. It's very easy to check identification for citizenship status.

[Euphonious Polemic]

How about this - you can rant to us about immigrants speaking English when you learn the language yourself, hmm?

It's very meta.

[lepermesiah399]

How about this - you can rant to us about immigrants speaking English when you learn the language yourself, hmm?

Elvis y not take a look at my previous post about how posters here worry about simple grammer rules instead of looking at the big picture? Grammer and English rules r the least of my worries when there r hardened criminals coming across the border at a seemingly endless rate. I'm not saying that they r all hardened criminals but that no one is monitoring or weeding them out. If all u have in life is to worry about my mastering the english language, do u really have a life? Also as previously stated I'm an ironworker,not a secretary. Do u think proper english is prevalent while we build the offices where u fetch your boss coffee?I no more know the home row on a keyboard than you know how to rig or erect a 10 ton I- beam. Only thing is this is a public posting site- but I wouldn't let your proper english ass on the job site!!

[lepermesiah399]

Does charter member=narcisistic elitist? hmmm

[Really Not All That Bright]

Elvis y not take a look at my previous post about how posters here worry about simple grammer rules instead of looking at the big picture?
Is the "big picture" the one where the camera pans out to reveal your hood?

[CannyDan]

Is the "big picture" the one where the camera pans out to reveal your hood?

Is the big picture one where a self-described ironworker with limited command of the English language still knows and casually drops phrases of art like 'the home row on a keyboard' into his rant? It's almost like he's (she's?) trying hard to look illiterate, but getting tripped up by using coherent phrasing in complex sentences and including words like 'prevalent' that I don't believe I've ever heard from the lips of a construction worker. Trying to make a point about misdirection of criticism from posters here, or something? Perhaps the OP doth 'stupid up' too much.

Still doesn't change his apparent preferences in head gear though.......

ETA-- sorry! Not the OP, the respondent leper

[Bridget Burke]

Elvis y not take a look at my previous post about how posters here worry about simple grammer rules instead of looking at the big picture? Grammer and English rules r the least of my worries when there r hardened criminals coming across the border at a seemingly endless rate. I'm not saying that they r all hardened criminals but that no one is monitoring or weeding them out. If all u have in life is to worry about my mastering the english language, do u really have a life? Also as previously stated I'm an ironworker,not a secretary. Do u think proper english is prevalent while we build the offices where u fetch your boss coffee?I no more know the home row on a keyboard than you know how to rig or erect a 10 ton I- beam. Only thing is this is a public posting site- but I wouldn't let your proper english ass on the job site!!

Ah, the Horny Handed Son of Labor speaks! Except that using "y" for "why" isn't the usage of The Common Working Man who had to drop out of Junior High to support his Pore Widdered Mother. It's Webspeak (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=webspeak). Who knew that buildings under construction had WiFi? (Hint: Either spell "narcissistic" correctly or don't try to use it; it doesn't fit the part you've chosen to play.)

All we know of you here is how you express yourself. You express yourself poorly. And what we can perceive of your inner self (through your piss-poor language) is mean-spirited. Also sexist, racist & xenophobic.

Now, get back on that High Steel!

[lepermesiah399]

?hood? I live nowhere near the ghetto u dumbass

[Really Not All That Bright]

Oh dear.

[digs]

Sorry... the u and y thing is trying too hard.

And too distracting for me to get at the point of your 'argument'. If you were really trying to communicate, you'd be less cutesy and more straight-forward (You and Why would be a more honest way to "talk" to us).

[Euphonious Polemic]

I love it when school gets out, and the kiddies have nothing much to do.

[Bridget Burke]

Sorry... the u and y thing is trying too hard.

And too distracting for me to get at the point of your 'argument'. If you were really trying to communicate, you'd be less cutesy and more straight-forward (You and Why would be a more honest way to "talk" to us).

Darn, you beat me to "cutesy." We're only missing a few LOL's & WTF's. Isn't all that texting rather a dangerous distraction for an ironworker?

lepermessiah399 has stated he's "an American union contractor." Aren't contractors supposed to do things like read contracts? He'd definitely need a high school education. Quite a few high school graduates are able to write decent meaningful sentences in English. Hey, some of them even read books!

Just because you work with your hands does not mean you are stupid.

ETA: I think Euphonious Polemic has the right idea.

[lepermesiah399]

AHHH I give up on YOU people. Once again I use Y(why) and U(you) because it is easier. Only the elitists here could turn a debate into English class,but if we were all on your high horse,who would YOU snobs have to look down upon? It's like trying to explain to your grandfather that there is a better way than the horse and buggy. I have news for you, wish we could make bush(not capatalized on purpose so please don't comment ty-THANK YOU) king thinking kind of people. There were no weapons of mass destruction(wanted to type WMD but for some reason digs, who wants to come across as a genius, cannot figure out a couple of simple abbreviations. I do have news for you though, I break down the people of this world into 2 categories. those who ran out on 9/11 and those who ran in. So while you ran out to type proper english and spell words correctly, my union brothers and I ran in because we really couldn't give a fuck about about proper english or proper spelling,but second only to HEROS in the FDNY, we care about human life. My point is that there was one common thread at Ground Zero, if the American flag wasn't sewn on their uniform,then it was on our hard hats or even tatooed on our bodies. If there had been a language barrier issue ,where even secons were crucial ,do you think we would have pulled anyone out of there alive? HMMMMM. I may not know how to spell narcisitic- but I can spell narci sissy! So next time you see an eldery person with a flat or car trouble, don't laugh as you drive by in your elistist car.Maybe stop and lend a hand because I'm sure if it was your mother you would want some one to help her.I have a feeling that people here will tear people like me apart only because they have a really hard time looking in the mirror. I,on the other hand, have no problem with that. So go ahead and tear apart my English ,spelling and run on sentences. anything to avoid looking in that mirror right? lol..... no LOMFL

[Bridget Burke]

AHHH I give up on YOU people. Once again I use Y(why) and U(you) because it is easier. Only the elitists here could turn a debate into English class,but if we were all on your high horse,who would YOU snobs have to look down upon? It's like trying to explain to your grandfather that there is a better way than the horse and buggy. I have news for you, wish we could make bush(not capatalized on purpose so please don't comment ty-THANK YOU) king thinking kind of people. There were no weapons of mass destruction(wanted to type WMD but for some reason digs, who wants to come across as a genius, cannot figure out a couple of simple abbreviations. I do have news for you though, I break down the people of this world into 2 categories. those who ran out on 9/11 and those who ran in. So while you ran out to type proper english and spell words correctly, my union brothers and I ran in because we really couldn't give a fuck about about proper english or proper spelling,but second only to HEROS in the FDNY, we care about human life. My point is that there was one common thread at Ground Zero, if the American flag wasn't sewn on their uniform,then it was on our hard hats or even tatooed on our bodies. If there had been a language barrier issue ,where even secons were crucial ,do you think we would have pulled anyone out of there alive? HMMMMM. I may not know how to spell narcisitic- but I can spell narci sissy! So next time you see an eldery person with a flat or car trouble, don't laugh as you drive by in your elistist car.Maybe stop and lend a hand because I'm sure if it was your mother you would want some one to help her.I have a feeling that people here will tear people like me apart only because they have a really hard time looking in the mirror. I,on the other hand, have no problem with that. So go ahead and tear apart my English ,spelling and run on sentences. anything to avoid looking in that mirror right? lol..... no LOMFL

Oh, you were there on 9/11? Or you weren't and just want to claim credit because you're pretending to be a union man & union members did behave heroically on that day?

Do you realize that people of different nationalities died then? Some of them were restaurant workers--who were not here legally.

What does your post have to do with the topic of this thread?

[Really Not All That Bright]

So we should stop letting Spanish-speaking people immigrate because otherwise we might not be able to rescue anyone during a second 9/11?

Well, I give you credit for trying.

[Bridget Burke]

Because your sentence-free, paragraph-free messages are really hard to read....

....I have news for you, wish we could make bush(not capatalized on purpose so please don't comment ty-THANK YOU) king thinking kind of people. There were no weapons of mass destruction(wanted to type WMD but for some reason digs, who wants to come across as a genius, cannot figure out a couple of simple abbreviations. I do have news for you though, I break down the people of this world into 2 categories. those who ran out on 9/11 and those who ran in.....

What makes you think any of us wanted Bush to be king? This is a pretty liberal board--listen to our Tame Conservatives bitch about it! (But I doubt even they dream about bowing down to Bush II.) Personally, I'm a Texan who proudly voted against every Bush I ever found on my ballot.

And just about everybody I know thought the WMD's were a lie.

=================================

My father graduated high school & took a few college classes at night. He was a union member when he wasn't on active duty. Due to his early death, I don't remember him. But, in searching out details on his life, I've come across some examples of his writing--in his high school magazine & as an officer describing how he evaded capture in Europe. He wrote the English language beautifully.

I realize that you may have untreated learning disabilities. But don't regard everybody who is able to express themselves effectively as an "elitist."

===================================

So, do you think we ought to change the Constitution so that being born in this country is not enough to make a baby a citizen? That is the main topic of this thread.

[digs]

AHHH I give up on YOU people... for some reason digs, who wants to come across as a genius... lol..... no LOMFL

:: digs bows to the assembled sdmb ::




:: scattered golf claps ::

[lepermesiah399]

Oh, you were there on 9/11? Or you weren't and just want to claim credit because you're pretending to be a union man & union members did behave heroically on that day?

Do you realize that people of different nationalities died then? Some of them were restaurant workers--who were not here legally.

What does your post have to do with the topic of this thread?

Dear mizz burke, if you doubt me then send me a private message with the p.o.box and i will send you a couple of photos that you will not find in print anywhere!!!! We were erecting the tallest bldg. in N.J. at the time. Some or most of us had some sort of camera due to the magnitude of the job and because we take pride in what we do. Check Golman Sachs in Jersey City. Erection started in the spring of 01 and we were well up out of the hole on that miserable day. All the bridges and tunnels were shut down but a couple of ferry boats were taking firefighters and ironworkers over to the south tip of Manhattan.I have photos of the F.D.N.Y. as they staged immediately following the collapses( again you won't find them published anywhere,because I know where you will take this. you will say i got them somewhere) I have no reason to lie or doubt everyone because once again I have no problem looking in the mirror.

[Rhythmdvl]

Erection started in the spring of 01 and we were well up out of the hole on that miserable day. You do know that if it lasts over four hours you're supposed to call a doctor, don't you?

[Bridget Burke]

Dear mizz burke, if you doubt me then send me a private message with the p.o.box and i will send you a couple of photos that you will not find in print anywhere!!!! We were erecting the tallest bldg. in N.J. at the time. Some or most of us had some sort of camera due to the magnitude of the job and because we take pride in what we do. Check Golman Sachs in Jersey City. Erection started in the spring of 01 and we were well up out of the hole on that miserable day. All the bridges and tunnels were shut down but a couple of ferry boats were taking firefighters and ironworkers over to the south tip of Manhattan.I have photos of the F.D.N.Y. as they staged immediately following the collapses( again you won't find them published anywhere,because I know where you will take this. you will say i got them somewhere) I have no reason to lie or doubt everyone because once again I have no problem looking in the mirror.

Good for you.

But you still haven't explained why you want us to change the rules of citizenship as laid down in the Constitution.

[lepermesiah399]

messages are really hard to read....
Then y tear into someone for not using proper english or capitals an punctuation? that's not an elitist way of thinking. I have given plenty of reasons for the way I see things.... I'm not sure if it was you or another poster who asked "is America full?" and I responded "have you seen the unemployment figures?" And Obama wants to give these illegals amnesty so they can add to the jobless figures and drain the system even more. Bad enough I have to pay 50 yrs. of social security only to be told it will be bankrupt right before I retire. Guess it's a good thing I have enough pride in myself to work union and have an annuity fund to fall back on. But what about all these illegals who want to come here and cut or undercut everyones throat for a job?At least unions keep the wages rising.Hope your children and grandchildren are happy to be paying for this Obama act of stupidity.
But once again you can grade my post for proper English.Why if you are calling an American institution in America should you have to press 1for english? That's just the tip of the iceberg on how many tax dollars are wasted on bending over backwards to cater to the hispanics who wanna come here and not learn the language. Wait until you see the cost of changing every stop sign in this country to english and spanish. I have given plenty of reasons if you read back not as an english professor! Is America full? FUCK YEAH or at least fed up
What makes you think any of us wanted Bush to be king? This is a pretty liberal board--listen to our Tame Conservatives bitch about it! (But I doubt even they dream about bowing down to Bush II.) Personally, I'm a Texan who proudly voted against every Bush I ever found on my ballot.

And just about everybody I know thought the WMD's were a lie.

=================================

My father graduated high school & took a few college classes at night. He was a union member when he wasn't on active duty. Due to his early death, I don't remember him. But, in searching out details on his life, I've come across some examples of his writing--in his high school magazine & as an officer describing how he evaded capture in Europe. He wrote the English language beautifully.

I realize that you may have untreated learning disabilities. But don't regard everybody who is able to express themselves effectively as an "elitist."

===================================

So, do you think we ought to change the Constitution so that being born in this country is not enough to make a baby a citizen? That is the main topic of this thread.[/QUOTE]

[lepermesiah399]

Don't know what happened to that post. just read the important stuff

[Rhythmdvl]

Don't know what happened to that post. just read the important stuff

You mean everything before the word "messages"?