Help me better understand Soccer/Football rules and strategy

[Xan]

Even though the US team is out I'm still interested in Soccer. However I'm not really clear on how the offsides rule works.

What types of strategies to teams use and how do they work?

I'm not a "sports guy" and yet I like soccer. I'm going to try and follow the EPL when it starts in August (well pre-season is in July)

[Kinthalis]

There are usually two players involved in a play. You have the player making the pass and the player receiving. If the player receiving is off sides (behind all players from the opposing team) when the play starts (when the pllayer making the pass kicks the ball) then he is off sides. Otherwise the play is good.

So the strategy is in the timing. You want the receiving player not to be offsides when the pass is kicked but the receiver wants to run past the defensive lines by the time the ball reaches him.

[USCDiver]

That's not entirely accurate. The off-sides rule says that there must be two defensive players between the receiving offensive player and the goal line when the ball is played forward. Usually one of those is the goalie and the other is the last defensive player, but this isn't always the case. There was a player called offsides in an early World Cup match (can't remember who) because the goalie had stepped forward to try to punch the ball out and missed. There was a defensive player standing on the goal line, but no other defensive players were near the offensive player.

So one defensive strategy is for all the defenders to step up just before a ball is played forward. This is dangerous if not timed appropriately.

[blindboyard]

A player is in an offside position if there are less than two players between him and the opposition byline. IF a player is in an offside position when the ball is passed to him that's offside, which concedes a free kick. Except when the ball is passed by a member of the opposition, the receiving player is behind the ball, the receiving player is in his own half or the ball is passed as a throw in.

[Snarky_Kong]

Strategy basically consists of creating and exploiting mismatches: creating a numerical advantage in certain areas, setting up your best attackers against their worst defenders, fast players vs slow defenders, big vs small.

How you do this depends on what sort of formation you use, the speed of play, how the team chooses to attack, etc. Zonal marking does a good job of breaking this sort of thing down in specific games.

[Xan]

How you do this depends on what sort of formation you use, the speed of play, how the team chooses to attack, etc. Zonal marking does a good job of breaking this sort of thing down in specific games.

This is what I was looking for an explanation/examples of.

[Snarky_Kong]

This is what I was looking for an explanation/examples of.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/

This site gives pretty good breakdown of specific matches and general tactics that have been popular recently. Now, it assumes some level of familiarity with the subject, so maybe you'd be better off poking around wikipedia for a bit.

While watching, try to keep some things in mind. Don't just watch the player with the ball. Look at how players near him position themselves, watch how players make runs away from or towards that player and how those runs adjust the defense and create open areas in the defense. Watch how the defense pressures the ball. Do they do it as a team and in a controlled motion, or are they panicky and lunging? Does the offense consistently attack one area of the field? Often this will be down the wing where a fast or skilled player has an advantage over a slow or less intelligent player. Does a team gradually try to work the ball up the field, or are they playing long balls from their defense. If they are, are those balls purposeful, or are they basically praying for something good to happen? Watch how a team positions themselves when they win possession, or lose it. Do they immediately look to attack, or compose themselves? Is the team that lost possession in good shape to defend, or are they out of sorts and susceptible to a counter attack?

With those sorts of things in mind while watching a game, you should get a better feel for what each team is trying to do.

Here's (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/26/ghana-2-1-united-states-tactics/) a US v Ghana breakdown. See if any of that jives with what you saw while watching the game.

[RadicalPi]

Offside, for me, is much easier to explain visually, and the good folks at FIFA have made a nice little video to explain what counts as offside and what doesn't. Here you go:

http://www.fifa.com/flash/lotg/football/en/flash/start.html

[Yookeroo]

One of the best ways to learn is to watch games with knowledgeable people. If you don't know anyone like this, you can probably find a pub that shows the EPL games regularly. I'm sure there would be people there who would like to share.

[Xan]

One of the best ways to learn is to watch games with knowledgeable people. If you don't know anyone like this, you can probably find a pub that shows the EPL games regularly. I'm sure there would be people there who would like to share.

I'm in the middle of nowhere Maine. There aren't many (if any) tv stations showing EPL games.

[John DiFool]

Quick question: is there a soccer equivalent of the full-court press, where the defenders all play their opposite numbers very closely, trying to force mistakes and turnovers (but, of course, risking allowing offensive opportunities for the team with the ball)?

[PopeJewish]

Quick question: is there a soccer equivalent of the full-court press, where the defenders all play their opposite numbers very closely, trying to force mistakes and turnovers (but, of course, risking allowing offensive opportunities for the team with the ball)?

yes. I don't know if there's an equivalent term, but there are definitely games (and teams) that use their forwards to pressure the defense regardless of where the ball is, and those that have their forwards drop back to midfield to help with the defense, usually leaving one guy alone up there hoping for a break away chance off a clearance.

[DCnDC]

All I know is what worked in FIFA 2001 for PS1 which was pass the ball to the wing, sprint down the sideline and kick a cross when I was parallel to the goal box. Hopefully one of my guys would be there and have a chance to bicycle kick or head it into the goal. Though it may work every now and then against a really terrible team in real life, it's not really a viable strategy.

[Frodo]

All I know is what worked in FIFA 2001 for PS1 which was pass the ball to the wing, sprint down the sideline and kick a cross when I was parallel to the goal box. Hopefully one of my guys would be there and have a chance to bicycle kick or head it into the goal. Though it may work every now and then against a really terrible team in real life, it's not really a viable strategy.

That's typical English or Paraguayan (and many others) strategy, not used so much anymore since it wasn't extremely effective, but far from non-viable.
I don't know the English term for it, there must be one. how you say "Tirar centros y esperar el cabezazo" in English?

[PopeJewish]

That's typical English or Paraguayan (and many others) strategy, not used so much anymore since it wasn't extremely effective, but far from non-viable.
I don't know the English term for it, there must be one. how you say "Tirar centros y esperar el cabezazo" in English?

try centering it and hope for a header?

I believe in English it's simply called the "long ball" where the defense boots it up field relying on the speed of a forward to get to it, the forward then makes a bit of space for himself and centers or has a go at goal.

[penultima thule]

Quick question: is there a soccer equivalent of the full-court press, where the defenders all play their opposite numbers very closely, trying to force mistakes and turnovers?
The Netherlands/AJAX "Total Football" would be one option.
The system had it's heyday in the 70s against highly defence orientated teams. Might have become more widespread if they had won in either '74 or '78. But now even the Netherland prefer to base their game plan around the counter attack.

[Snarky_Kong]

The Netherlands/AJAX "Total Football" would be one option.
The system had it's heyday in the 70s against highly defence orientated teams. Might have become more widespread if they had won in either '74 or '78. But now even the Netherland prefer to base their game plan around the counter attack.

Total football was having fluidity in positions, not playing a high pressure defense.

[penultima thule]

True but the strategy was about "we put pressure on you when we have the ball, and when you have the ball" and to gain possession where ever the ball was.

[Yookeroo]

I'm in the middle of nowhere Maine. There aren't many (if any) tv stations showing EPL games.


You mean pubs showing the games? I think the games will be on Fox Soccer Channel & ESPN, so they won't be too hard to find? But, yeah, middle of nowhere Maine may not have too many viewing options.

[Xan]

You mean pubs showing the games? I think the games will be on Fox Soccer Channel & ESPN, so they won't be too hard to find? But, yeah, middle of nowhere Maine may not have too many viewing options.

Most the pubs will be showing American Sports. I doubt they'd like to watch soccer.

I found a way to watch Fox Soccer Channel on a regular basis, so it doesn't matter.

I'd also like to say that ESPN 3's business model is totally screwy. You need to have one of their "affiliated ISPs" in order to watch stuff on ESPN3.com. Instead of offering a subscription model.

[Cyberhwk]

Is there a specific reason the keepers sometimes bounce the ball off the ground? Is this just habit or does it serve a purpose?

[PopeJewish]

Is there a specific reason the keepers sometimes bounce the ball off the ground? Is this just habit or does it serve a purpose?

just a habit. Some keepers used to actually kick the ball on the bounce, rugby style, but I haven't seen a keeper do that in a good 10 years or so.

[Xan]

just a habit. Some keepers used to actually kick the ball on the bounce, rugby style, but I haven't seen a keeper do that in a good 10 years or so.

What's the purpose of the "Third" uniform I see that EPL teams have? I understand the purpose the Home and Away uniforms but I'm not sure when they'd wear the Third. My guess is that it's for things like the Champions League but I'm not entirely sure.

[penultima thule]

Is there a specific reason the keepers sometimes bounce the ball off the ground? Is this just habit or does it serve a purpose?
The rule for most of last century was that while goal keepers could handle the ball in their own penalty area (at one stage it was anywhere in their own half) they could not carry the ball. So bouncing the ball allowed the keeper to walk 4 steps as they kicked it. That was modified to be a time allowance 6 seconds. Bouncing it again gave another allowance. Now a goalkeeper can carry the ball inside their own penalty area

So now a goalkeeper bouncing the ball is just a habit.

[Cyberhwk]

Thanks guys. Trying to join the Seattle Sounders bandwagon, but I'm still a beginner regarding the rules.

[movingfinger]

Technical stuff aside, why do the goaltenders wear different uniforms from the rest of their team? Why not wear the team's regular uni, maybe with a big target on the chest? And a sign saying "hit me here and win 5000 euros!"

And why don't the referees wear zebra stripe shirts, as God obviously intended?

[wintertime]

Technical stuff aside, why do the goaltenders wear different uniforms from the rest of their team? Why not wear the team's regular uni, maybe with a big target on the chest? And a sign saying "hit me here and win 5000 euros!"

And why don't the referees wear zebra stripe shirts, as God obviously intended?

The keeper is the only player allowed to play the ball with his hands within the box, the penalty area (18 yards or 16.5 metres deep); therefore it's important for the referee to identify him among other players easily, especially in situations when many men cluster in the goal area (that is the small rectangular box indicated by markings in front of the goal), during corner kicks or indirect kicks, for example.

The referee used to wear only black but nowadays the rule is that his colours only need to be easily distinguished from the colours of the two teams on the field. Football referees don't wear black and white stripes because they are not necessarily from Turin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventus_Turin). Or Udine.

[Xan]

You mean pubs showing the games? I think the games will be on Fox Soccer Channel & ESPN, so they won't be too hard to find? But, yeah, middle of nowhere Maine may not have too many viewing options.

It appears I can regularly watch the New England Revolution. They have the record for having every single game televised and they are on networks I get.

I'm still going try and follow EPL and Champions the best I can. I'm rooting for Arsenal if you're wondering.

[The Stafford Cripps]

What's the purpose of the "Third" uniform I see that EPL teams have? I understand the purpose the Home and Away uniforms but I'm not sure when they'd wear the Third. My guess is that it's for things like the Champions League but I'm not entirely sure.

£££££££££££

[duality72]

Maybe that plays into it, but I think the real reason they started is because sometimes two kits isn't enough. What if your first kit is blue, your second kit is white, but you play a team with blue and white stripes? Time for the third kit.

[ekweizn]

Maybe that plays into it, but I think the real reason they started is because sometimes two kits isn't enough. What if your first kit is blue, your second kit is white, but you play a team with blue and white stripes? Time for the third kit.

Hmm. I hope some team designs home/away kits with about 15 different-colored stripes to force the other team to play nude.

[Jas09]

I'm rooting for Arsenal if you're wondering.
There's a good man! Now just hope that Fabregas doesn't get sold... and that they sign a decent keeper. And a center back or two. And a striker.

[phungi]

question: why does the goalkeeper kick the ball all the way down the field, as it often results in a change of possession, rather than kick/roll/throw the ball to a defender on his own team to move it along while maintaining possession?

[wintertime]

question: why does the goalkeeper kick the ball all the way down the field, as it often results in a change of possession, rather than kick/roll/throw the ball to a defender on his own team to move it along while maintaining possession?

You're absolutely right. Quite often a more controlled delivery of the ball would be the better option, but, as you might have seen during England v Germany, a long ball over the midfield heading towards an attacker who is shadowed by just one player might lead to a direct scoring opportunity because a) there is no offside if the ball comes directly from the keeper, so the attackers can position themselves higher and b) the ball doesn't need to be passed through the midfield at all.

The modern goalkeeper is not just there to mind his goal. If he has the abilities, he often plays a bit like a sweeper positioned behind the back four or back three who, for example, prevents scoring opportunities by running towards the ball to hinder an attacker to control a long pass. He is also actively engaged in the transition from defence to offence. The German goalie, Manuel Neuer, is well-known for his powerful and precise throws of the ball into the midfield towards a player or into the lane where this player will find an open space leading deep into the opponent's half.

A relatively short pass to a free defender is the most secure option for a keeper but it also gives the opposite team time to gain a well balanced defensive shape.

If your strategy is focused on ball possession and short passes, this is the right way to act. But if you strategy for the particular game is more adapted to "fast breaks", midfield pressing and "Balleroberung" (ball capture ?), riskier throws or goal kicks are favourable as long as the other team isn't a well-known specialist in counter-attacks.

[PopeJewish]

a) there is no offside if the ball comes directly from the keeper, so the attackers can position themselves higher

nitpick, but this is wrong. A player can be offside when the keeper passes it, they just rarely are. They CAN'T be offside if they're on their own half of the field, though, which is why this tactic is often viable if you have fast forwards as generally if the keeper has the ball, most of the other team has pushed forward leaving only a few guys back defending.

[wintertime]

nitpick, but this is wrong. A player can be offside when the keeper passes it, they just rarely are. They CAN'T be offside if they're on their own half of the field, though, which is why this tactic is often viable if you have fast forwards as generally if the keeper has the ball, most of the other team has pushed forward leaving only a few guys back defending.

Nitpicking the nitpick .. ;)

I should have worded my answer more precisely: a player cannot commit an off side offence after a goal kick.

No Offence
There is no offside offence if a player receives the ball directly from:

* a goal kick
* a throw-in
* a corner kick

Source in English: Offside Ref (http://www.offside-ref.co.uk/laws/11-offside-rule/detailed/).
Or Soccer Training Guide (http://www.soccer-training-guide.com/offside-rule-in-soccer.html).

[footballisplayedwithyourfeet]

Nitpicking the nitpick .. ;)

I should have worded my answer more precisely: a player cannot commit an off side offence after a goal kick.

This could actually be important in this world cup. Since many games are played at altitude the balls will go a lot farther, I've heard the dutch goaly say he had to take it easy in order to keep the ball in play. One of the dutch pundits (Waterreus, former keeper) said it would be great way to get some relief from preassure to put two gusy at 18 yard box and shoot the goal kicks to them. Just the fact that they stand there - not offside - will force the opponent to take a deeper position.

[Ximenean]

And England defender Matthew Upson says that they were caught out by the unexpectedly long flight of the goal kick that led directly to Germany scoring against them.

[Busy Scissors]

It's actually quite difficult to get good strategic analysis of football from sports journalists. At least in the UK, the standard is low IMO. One exception is David Pleat, who will briefly analyse a game each week in the Guardian. It's a good read and goes a lot deeper into the game - you can read it online next season - here's an example. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/apr/07/barcelona-arsenal-david-pleat)

Pleat is an ex-manager who, ironically, became a by-word for mediocrity after an initial bright start to his career. I guess it's easier to write about strategy than putting it into practice. To be fair, though, his early clubs were known for playing great football.

[wintertime]

One of the dutch pundits (Waterreus, former keeper) said it would be great way to get some relief from preassure to put two gusy at 18 yard box and shoot the goal kicks to them. Just the fact that they stand there - not offside - will force the opponent to take a deeper position.
Yeah, I'm still baffled that no one has yet tried something like this against the teams that are hard to break down in midfield.

Sure, it might be very reminiscent of the ridiculed kick-and-rush of old but I see no reason to ignore a possibly beneficial tactic.

And England defender Matthew Upson says that they were caught out by the unexpectedly long flight of the goal kick that led directly to Germany scoring against them.

Klose said that they had talked about the surprisingly long flights before; Özil's movement was meant to draw away a defender and Klose and the keeper realised the opportunity at the same time. It was still chancy but it worked out and it had no downside to it: even if it led to nothing, the defenders would still be cautioned by the experience and the space between them and the midfield would consequently either open more (which would be advantageous for the free agents Özil and Müller) or the central midfield would follow the defence to stand deeper which would isolate England's forwards more, disconnect the wings and reduce the immediate danger of Gerrard's or Lampard's well-known forays.

[mkecane]

wintertime, thanks for your posts in the various football/soccer threads. I've been a big fan of United and the game in general for 8 years now, but never played as a kid or teenager, so it's still a neat thing to read about. I play indoor soccer here, but admit that I'm almost always just trying to use physical advantages and the tendencies I pick up from an opponent rather than a crystal clear understanding of the game to succeed. I wish I weren't at work right now so that zonalmarking wouldn't be blocked from viewing. I'll just have to wait...

[Darth Sensitive]

There was an ESPN or similar article about how Howard's throw to Donovan to set up that goal last week was helped significantly by the altitude. Lower down he'd have to kick for that distance, with less accuracy.

[Götterfunken]

Football referees don't wear black and white stripes because they are not necessarily from Turin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventus_Turin). Or Udine.Or Notts County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notts_County), who started the whole "barcode" look back in the 1890s (though it wasn't called that back then) ;)

I'm still going try and follow EPL and Champions the best I can. I'm rooting for Arsenal if you're wondering.Good choice! Jas09 is right, however, about those positions (especially goalkeeper--we haven't had a decent keeper since "Mad" Jens Lehmann, and even he had some dodgy moments, as his nickname might suggest). And we've yet to find a decent replacement for Patrick Vieira in midfield, even though he left us five years ago. Arsenal have been in a transitional stage for the last few seasons, but hopefully they'll get through it in the near future. And even during these recent difficult times, they've still managed to finish in the top four of the Premier League and secure qualification for the Champions League.

[Yookeroo]

wintertime, thanks for your posts in the various football/soccer threads.

I will echo this. I find his analysis usually pretty insightful.

[wintertime]

Or Notts County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notts_County), who started the whole "barcode" look back in the 1890s (though it wasn't called that back then) ;)

I didn't know that! Thanks.

Arsenal have been in a transitional stage for the last few seasons, but hopefully they'll get through it in the near future. And even during these recent difficult times, they've still managed to finish in the top four of the Premier League and secure qualification for the Champions League.
Yeah, Arsenal has stayed surprisingly strong. When they played Barcelona in the Champions League, they looked pretty good; their main disadvantage was, imo, their poor ability to regain the ball once it was lost. And, of course, they didn't have this little guy, .. now what was his name?

mkecane and Yookeroo, thank you. [blush]

[Really Not All That Bright]

Sure, it might be very reminiscent of the ridiculed kick-and-rush of old but I see no reason to ignore a possibly beneficial tactic.
If you caught the second half of the Denmark-Japan game, you'd notice that the Danes completely ran out of ideas, and their attacking philosophy became "hoof it into the penalty area from behind the halfway line and hope something good happens".

Needless to say, it was ineffective.

[wintertime]

If you caught the second half of the Denmark-Japan game, you'd notice that the Danes completely ran out of ideas, and their attacking philosophy became "hoof it into the penalty area from behind the halfway line and hope something good happens".

Needless to say, it was ineffective.

Very true, but that's not what I had in mind: Denmark was already desperate to score, while Japan had switched to a defensive shape with at least two players in advanced counterattack positions at the halfway line whenever Denmark had the ball.

When the opponent doesn't need to score and deploys his defence deep and numerous enough to shadow the forwards 2 v 1, wide passes are indeed wasted ball possession because even if one heads directly towards its mark, the ball is rarely controlled well enough to stay with the attack against one close defender (either stationed in front to intercept the ball or behind the target to win the tackle against the forward who is focused on ball control in the first second or two) and one waiting a bit deeper.

The best time for this approach is a high defence line with the centre-backs in a man-to-man situation. We have seen a couple of goals scored with long passes against such a high line (Sneijder to Robben, for example) but usually this happens when the transition from defence to attack happens lightning-fast and the team that was attacking has yet to regain its defence positions. But a keeper who reacts quickly can do the same to surprise the opponent. Or the other team is simply too confident, too slow or too tired to gain deeper positions with a numerical advantage.

[Really Not All That Bright]

They weren't wide passes, though; they were almost invariably to the front of the box, within the area defined by the goalposts. Japan also wasn't in all-out-defending mode, either, so there was space for the Danish forwards.

[mascaroni]

In answer to the OP...
Despite the best efforts of FIFA, football is not about scoring more goals than your opponents; it's about conceding less goals than your opponents.

Hungary and Real Madrid in the fifties and Brazil in'70 were notable exceptions.

[wintertime]

They weren't wide passes, though; they were almost invariably to the front of the box, within the area defined by the goalposts. Japan also wasn't in all-out-defending mode, either, so there was space for the Danish forwards.

You know, I think you are right and I misremembered. But (there is always a "but", isn't there?) the tactical situation I described to show an advantageous moment for a long goal kick is valid: the key is the high defence line with no numerical prevalence in favour of the defending team.

[grimpixie]

Another question: What is the purpose of the six-yard box markings?

[Colophon]

Another question: What is the purpose of the six-yard box markings?
A free kick cannot be taken from closer than six yards to the goal. If an offence that would result in an indirect free kick to the attacking team (rather than a penalty) occurs inside the six-yard box, the free kick is taken from the edge of the box, level with where the incident occurred.

ETA: Also, goal kicks have to be taken from within this box.

[Jas09]

Another question: What is the purpose of the six-yard box markings?So far as I know the only two purposes are that (a) goal kicks must be taken from inside the box and (b) indirect free kicks must be taken from outside the area (nearest point outside, I think).

[PopeJewish]

an example of an indirect free kick being given to an attacking team would be if the defense passed the ball back to the keeper, who then picked it up with his hands. The keeper is only allowed to use his hands if the ball comes off an attacker, or indirectly (e.g. deflected) off a defender.

[mascaroni]

an example of an indirect free kick being given to an attacking team would be if the defense passed the ball back to the keeper, who then picked it up with his hands. The keeper is only allowed to use his hands if the ball comes off an attacker, or indirectly (e.g. deflected) off a defender.
Headed or chested balls to the keeper are allowed as well.

Back in the old days when obstruction was given, an indirect free kick was awarded. It was a reasonably common occurence to see all eleven of the defending team lined up on the goal line ready to sprint at the attacking team as soon as the six inch pass was passed to the player with the hardest shot. I can't recall any goals being scored but it was great fun to watch.

[PopeJewish]

Headed or chested balls to the keeper are allowed as well.

Back in the old days when obstruction was given, an indirect free kick was awarded. It was a reasonably common occurence to see all eleven of the defending team lined up on the goal line ready to sprint at the attacking team as soon as the six inch pass was passed to the player with the hardest shot. I can't recall any goals being scored but it was great fun to watch.

yea sorry, when I said "passed" I meant "passed off the foot." And I do remember seeing a few of those. When I was a kid I used to go to the old soccer league games (looking it up now I guess it wasn't NASL, it was just after they finished) and watch the San Jose Blackhawks (Dominic Kinnear ftw) and you'd see that. Great times