MD looking for a home, Australia or US?

[scamartistry]

This is a far out question I admitr, but what the hell!
what im looking for here is good opinions, nothing more and nothing less.

Im a humble man from northern Europe, just finished my MD. I have decided to do an old school emigration and live a good part of my life in another country. A lot of contemplating has led me to choose either US or Australia as alternatives on where to move.

Since coming from a rather cold country, a big part of my decision is based on living somewhere warm(-er), and since my only second language is english this has led me to my alternatives.

Now.....can anybody help me with this major league decision,what would be the PROS and also the CONS with either decision.

Yank and Aussie insights are most welcome! (btw pardon my grammar, learning in progress...)

[Johnny L.A.]

I've never been to Australia (want to though), so I can't answer for there.

The U.S. has a wide range of climates; from Mediterranean, to deserts, to tropical, to ones that will feel like home to you... and everything in between. If you don't like one part, you can just move to another.

Americans tend to be friendly to Northern European immigrants. The downside (not for you) is that there are some people who are unfriendly to non-Whites. Sad, but true. Fortunately there are places all over the country where such people are few.

As you've probably heard, there is much debate about our health care system. Some of us want single-payer Universal Health Care. Others see that as 'Socialist' (i.e., USSR/North Korea-style). You may or may not like the system we have.

There are any number of threads on political, racial, economic, and other issues here. You might want to read a few of those.

But just going on the geography and climate, it's hard to beat the U.S.

[Shagnasty]

I have never been to Australia and I hear it is great but the population is only a fraction of the U.S. and that limits your options a little. The U.S. has basically anything you want in terms of climate like Johnny L.A. said but it also has a tremendous number of world-class research universities and hospitals if you like that sort of thing or you could just sign up to work in an underserved area with a slower pace and low cost of living. Look at a map of the U.S. You could shoot for California but it is expensive and has other downsides or you could live in Texas which is much different plus lots of other places that make up much of the bottom half of the country. You say you want some place warm but some parts of the U.S. are downright hot. Arizona gets really high temperatures but it is dry. Much of the Gulf Coast including New Orleans and Houston are Africa hot during the summer and that may not be what you are shooting for. Even the Carolinas can be sweltering during parts of the summer.

[DMark]

Also can't speak for Australia, but I do know that here in Las Vegas, there is a shortage of good doctors, and lots of MD's do come from other countries and nobody seems to mind an iota. We have a doctor now from Iran, have had doctors from China, Africa and several from European countries. They seem to like living here - quite affordable, easy access from the centralized airport to almost any country in the world (non-stop) for family and friends.
There are also some new, state-of-the-art medical facilities here.
And if you want warm - well, Welcome To Las Vegas! (Temperature today is 110 degrees Fahrenheit in our backyard). But it's a dry heat...

Just a thought.

[Johnny L.A.]

Much of the Gulf Coast including New Orleans and Houston are Africa hot during the summer
Tarzan couldn't take that kind of hot.

And if you want warm - well, Welcome To Las Vegas! (Temperature today is 110 degrees Fahrenheit in our backyard). But it's a dry heat...
As I've said before, I lived in the Mojave Desert in my teens and into my 20s. Been to Las Vegas innumerable times, often in the Summer. The heat's not so bad, once you get used to it. Get used to hearing, as has been pointed out, 'But it's a dry heat!' Also, the Mojave Desert is beautiful.

Of course, Australia has its share of deserts as well. ;)

[whiterabbit]

I've been in Las Vegas in July. I have also been in New Orleans in July. Give me Vegas any day. "It's a dry heat" is a joke, but it's also true. Humidity is my personal enemy. I moved to the mountains in Idaho to get away from it and have succeeded admirably.

There must be an Aussie Doper who can help here. I have an Aussie coworker who I could ask, but she's on maternity leave.

Personally I like cold and snow so I'm not somebody to ask about warm places.

[kambuckta]

Aussie Doper chiming in!

Australia gives preferential treatment to Doctors who wish to migrate here, (including financial enticements) if they are prepared to work in rural areas where we are experiencing a dramatic shortage at the moment.

The climates here also range from dry and hot (outback areas), hot and wet (tropical regions), to more temperate climes that get down to damned cold in the winter-time. Australia is a big country, and the climatic variations reflect that vastness.

Contact the Aus Immigration Dept for any details. :)

[Jackmannii]

Take the time to do your research on what requirements you'll need to meet to practice medicine in the United States.

The quaint practice of referring to "Yanks" may not be appreciated here by either southerners or non-fans of the New York Yankees, both of whom are numerous. Best to stick to "Americans".Im a humble man from northern EuropeLove the username-quote combination. :D

[Aspidistra]

Australia, like the US, has a wide variety of climate types - tropical, mediterranean, desert - we're a bit weak on the "very cold" end of the spectrum, but I doubt if you'd like that.

We're a smallish nation in a BIG country. If you like wide open space, there's plenty of it here. Our cities are generally agreed to be good places to live - Melbourne used to be "worlds most liveable city" though I think we've been elbowed out by Toronto in the last couple of years.

Australia has a public health system, unlike the US. You could probably get richer in the US than here. OTOH, we have more in the way of social services if you ever get into difficulties (eg unemployment benefit) and you don't have to buy private health insurance. Our school system is excellent, and there are world-class hospitals here, though not as many as in the US.

Australians are probably less polite than Americans, and less respectful of authority. We can be somewhat cynical, but are generally pretty friendly and easygoing. Migration rates are high, so a large number of us either comes from overseas, or has a parent who did.

We're also short on doctors. So feel free to come and join us.

[Johnny L.A.]

We can be somewhat cynical, but are generally pretty friendly and easygoing.

Australians are like Americans who don't take themselves seriously. :p



That's supposed to be a compliment. ;)

[Aspidistra]

I take it as one!

[Jamodu Green]

Another Aussie Doper.

Australia is a wonderful place to work and live. I live in Sydney, which has a population of 4.5 million and a wonderful climate. My ancestors also migrated here from Northern Europe and we're not going back!

You would have great employment opportunities in Australia, especially in rural areas (as mentioned by kambuckta).

A downside to the major cities in Australia is the increasing cost of housing. Although it shouldn't be a problem if you're a doctor.

[DMark]

A downside to the major cities in Australia is the increasing cost of housing.

Wow! I am duly impressed - and hope this happens in Las Vegas someday soon! Seriously!

Here in Vegas, homes are going for cheap...foreclosures all over the place and prices have sunk to record lows. You can buy a $400,000 house (just a few years ago) for about $200,000 or less today. And for Las Vegas, that is a luxury home, in a great neighborhood, with an in-ground pool.
Even million dollar homes are being sold for about half price or less today.

Plus, Nevada has legal prostitution (not in metropolitan Las Vegas though) and great amenities - even excluding The Strip. You would never be bored in Las Vegas, although I have to admit - I doubt you would ever be bored in Australia either.

Plus, those clever Aussies dumped their biggest pain in the ass, Mel Gibson, on us and he lives in California...I am starting a petition to get Lindsey Lohan and Paris Hilton citizenship in Australia in retaliation...

[Martini Enfield]

A downside to the major cities in Australia is the increasing cost of housing. Although it shouldn't be a problem if you're a doctor.

This bears repeating- you're looking at $400,000 for an average house in an average suburb of a major city like Brisbane at the moment, and the bank is likely going to want to see 10% upfront as a deposit.

For a large, empty country, land in Australia costs a fortune and public transport isn't necessarily very good- it's nowhere near as good as Singapore or London, for example.

Also, it's worth mentioning that Australia is a long way from anywhere- Assuming you're in Melbourne, Sydney, or Brisbane, the nearest foreign country of note is New Zealand (a 3 hour flight) and it's around 8 hours to Singapore or Malaysia, 12 to Los Angeles, and 24 to London.

[Girl From Mars]

Why not consider New Zealand - you generally can't be sued for medical practice there. :)

Why are you considering the US vs Australia? That might help us give you some additional info about life in Australia.

[madrabbitwoman]

Aussie here:
Come to my home town - you will be welcomed with open arms. The local council offers subsidies to doctors who move here (some travel, moving expenses, housing mainly). We have enough doctors already here so that you wouldn't be overwhelmed. The local hospital is very friendly and never full. And they are about to build a multipurpose medical clinic so you wouldn't even have to worry about obtaining consulting rooms.

[Gleena]

I'm both an American and an Australian citizen (as of 30th June!)

Go to Australia. The economy is better. There is less red tape. We need qualified doctors out bush.

I've lived in Vegas, it would be a good second choice.

[Isamu]

Would you be looking to set up your own practice or are you thinking of working with a hospital/research facility?

If the former, I think you'd find it much less trouble to actually run a medical practice in Australia. I'm no expert by any means, but from what I hear (some of it here on the dope - there was a recent pit thread) that you'd spend a lot of time (or have to pay someone to spend a lot of time) dealing with insurance company red tape, and government red tape, rather than, you know, practicing medicine.

But it also depends on what kind of place you want to live in. And yeah, to echo others, city property is still very very expensive in Australia. Frankly - it's way overpriced but I don't know the precise cause (I don't live there anymore), so I don't know if the market will ever "correct" itself. Our ramshackle beach house with rotting stumps, leaking roof and bad 70s design is constantly getting unsolicited offers to buy for around a million Aus dollars. People want to live there and it's at least an hour's drive into the city.

But like others have said, the countryside in Australia is a good option for a GP.

As for the US, there are plenty of cities that I have been to and, personally, could very easily live in - Seattle, Boston, Chicago, San Fransisco, for example.

I think, generally you need to narrow down what you are looking for, precisely, before we can give any really useful advice.

[bibliophage]

I keep hearing stories of physicians who immigrated to the U.S. and now work as cab drivers because they can't get licensed to practice. I don't know how common that is. Here's some information for graduates of foreign medical schools on licensing in Australia (http://www.amc.org.au/index.php/img) and the U.S (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/international-medical-graduates/practicing-medicine.shtml).

[Really Not All That Bright]

You'd have to recertify to work in the US, but not in Australia (assuming you originally qualified in the EU). You'd have to take the US Medical License Examination (http://www.usmle.org/) at the very least, and probably at least one more certification in your area of specialization (assuming you have one) depending on which state you want to work in.

[Shirley Ujest]

Go to Australia and then work in the bush.

Write your memoirs about it.

Profit!

[LunarPlexus]

Go to Australia and then work in the bush.
Did I miss where he said he's a gynecologist?

[Driver8]

I didn't see anyone mention it in great deal but I suspect visa and work permit requirements will be a big factor to consider. In general it is extremely difficult to immigrate to the United States - for most people it is practically impossible. There may be exceptions for doctors. I'd begin there: research the exact requirements for a migrating doctor in both Australia and the United States: I guess this will include actual government work permits as well as the credentials required to actually practice medicine in each location.

[RandMcnally]

One negative about Australia (although I do want to visit someday) is they have a lot of animals that like to eat your face.

[Really Not All That Bright]

So does the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer), you know.

[alphaboi867]

Did I miss where he said he's a gynecologist?

I don't now about Australia, but alot of areas (& even entire states) in the US have shortages of obstetricians/gynecologists because of the cost of malpractice insurance.

[LunarPlexus]

I don't now about Australia, but alot of areas (& even entire states) in the US have shortages of obstetricians/gynecologists because of the cost of malpractice insurance.
Bush joke.

[Richard Pearse]

I suspect you'd find the culture and social structure more familiar in Australia but that is not necessarily a positive, it depends on what you want. Housing is definitely expensive here and that is partly because the economy here is good. Australia didn't have a recession as such, just a period of low growth. As an example of the difference in economy, my savings account never went below about 4.5% interest where as I think in the US it has been much lower. The flip side of that is that it is more expensive to borrow money. I think the current interest rate on my mortgage is around 7%.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Well, not much lower. My wife has perfect credit; our mortgage rate is 6.75%, and she signed in 2008.

[Richard Pearse]

Interesting, I've just checked mine and it's 6.76% which is nearly the same as yours but there seems to be a big difference in what you can earn with a savings account. ING Direct are paying 4.9% with a 6.25% 4 month "welcome rate" for new accounts. The best ING in the USA have to offer seems to be 1.1%.

[Weedy]

There's a massive shortage of doctors in the bush in Australia because no one wants to live there.

[Martini Enfield]

There's a massive shortage of doctors in the bush in Australia because no one wants to live there.

Because there's no infrastructure, no jobs (unless you work in the mines or you're a teacher or doctor being paid lots by the Government to be there), and you're a long way from anywhere...

[Aspidistra]

There's a massive shortage of doctors in the bush in Australia because no one wants to live there.

Well, that's enticing innit? ;)

[TheoS]

I have lived in the US all my life- I love my country and would put my life on the line for the basic freedome I enjoy. However; I have traveled heavily in Australia and New Zealand. I would not hesitate in moving to New Zealand. Australia is a US wannabe. I love the aussies but the kiwi's have it best. Imagine the California coast during the 1940's- wow.

[Richard Pearse]

There's a massive shortage of doctors in the bush in Australia because no one wants to live there.
It's because they'd prefer to live in a city, but if you need to work in the "bush" in order to get your visa and subsequent residency, I don't think it's a big hardship.

[Markxxx]

It's easier to get in the USA than Aussie so go to Australian when you're young. Aussie has a milder climate compared to the USA in terms of the cold. It is also has much hotter tropical areas.

New Zealand is also worth looking at. Christchurch, Dunedin, on the South Island and Wellington (rainy) or Aukland up on the North Island.

[Johnny L.A.]

Australia is a US wannabe.

See, this is what I meant about us taking ourselves too seriously. :p

[Martini Enfield]

New Zealand is also worth looking at. Christchurch, Dunedin, on the South Island and Wellington (rainy) or Aukland up on the North Island.

For the love of whatever Deity you believe it, do NOT move to Dunedin. It is a silly place

Seriously, don't. There's something... odd about Dunedin, and people who spend too much time there are liable to become "different" in a way that's really hard to explain, but other Kiwis will know what I mean.

The thing with the South Island of NZ is that there's actually bugger all to do unless you like skiing, hunting, fishing, trekking, boating, and that sort of thing. If you want to go clubbing and sitting in trendy cafes and restaurants all hours of the night, you're going to be disappointed. Sure, there are nightclubs and trendy cafes and restaurants in Christchurch and Dunedin, but there just isn't that "buzz" that you get somewhere bigger and more cosmopolitan, for want of a better word.

[Weedy]

Well, that's enticing innit? ;)

I felt like someone should give him at least a little warning.

[kambuckta]

Like our climate, our 'bush' regions are also many and varied. Getting a job in the dusty outback is very different to say a town on the north coast of NSW, or in one of the communities in rural Victoria or Tasmania. MANY people make a choice to leave the bustling, overcrowded cities and re-locate to any of these areas, so it is patently false to say that 'no-one wants to live there' Weedy.

Certainly the bigger cities have more to offer a professional person in terms of consumer and cultural options, but unless you are right out the Back of Bourke (so to speak) accessing these facilities is mostly no great hardship. We have roads, cars and even the INTERNET out here nowadays. :D

[Cicero]

There's shortage of doctors everywhere, not just in the bush (in Australia).

However, after Jayant Pate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayant_Patel)l I am not sure a doctor with the nick ScamArtistry would be welcomed.

[Isamu]

I have lived in the US all my life- I love my country and would put my life on the line for the basic freedome I enjoy.

Yes, if you want U.S. "I'M FREE!" brand Freedom, then you should probably go to the U.S. TheoS here would give his left nut for the freeedome (and all we have is the Thunderdome - a poor substitute to be sure.) But if you move to the U.S. you might have to surrender the freedom not to be completely free. It's a tough choice, wait a minute, do they even have choice where you come from??

[kambuckta]

Just to clarify, 'in the bush' in Australia generally means anywhere greater than 70km or so from the centres of Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane, and 50km from the other capital cities (Canberra excluded....you only have to get about 10km away from our national capital to be out in the sticks And thank GOD FOR THAT :D)

So, you don't have to be a long way from 21st century civilization to still enjoy the benefits of a rural existence here. Just sayin'.

[Girl From Mars]

...you only have to get about 10km away from our national capital to be out in the sticks...
Some would say you don't even have to go that far. :p