New York, New York.

[Baron Skinley Von Clipper]

Why do Americans always refer to cities by both their name and the state (or country) they are located in?

Is there more than one New York? more than one Los Angeles? more than one San Francisco? more than one Helsinki, Moscow, Vienna or Paris?

[BorgHunter]

We don't, really. Where did you get the idea this was something we did regularly? Generally, I (and all Americans I know) will only mention the state or country if there could be some confusion (such as if someone were to visit one of the Springfields).

We address mail with the city and state, of course, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

[Siam Sam]

There is a Paris, Texas. And an Odessa in Texas, Canada and Russia.

[Baron Skinley Von Clipper]

We don't, really. Where did you get the idea this was something we did regularly? Generally, I (and all Americans I know) will only mention the state or country if there could be some confusion (such as if someone were to visit one of the Springfields).

We address mail with the city and state, of course, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

It's something I encounter very often, I'm in England. I just started working with someone who is from "Oklahoma city, Oklahoma". but I've also met several people who tell me they are from "New York, New York" or "Houston, Texas" or "Fort Lauderdale, Florida" etc.

It seems that they think I've never seen an atlas.

[Siam Sam]

I think you're right that it's done a lot. Just a quaint local custom. Part of it is probably that states have more political importance (I think) than do counties in England; states are like individual countries, 50 of them banded together.

[Baron Skinley Von Clipper]

There is a Paris, Texas. And an Odessa in Texas, Canada and Russia.
I'm aware that several cities have been "cloned".

If you met someone who said they are from London and they had an English accent you would probably guess that they are not from Ontario.

If I met someone with a southern American accent who told me they are from Paris I'd guess they weren't from France.

[Siam Sam]

If I met someone with a southern American accent who told me they are from Paris I'd guess they weren't from France.

Ah, but I believe there are other towns called Paris too, in other states. And the only reason people have heard of Paris, Texas is because of the movie. Most people probably want to be identified with a state rather than just "the South." Not sure why this would really bother anyone, to tell you the truth.

[BorgHunter]

It's something I encounter very often, I'm in England. I just started working with someone who is from "Oklahoma city, Oklahoma". but I've also met several people who tell me they are from "New York, New York" or "Houston, Texas" or "Fort Lauderdale, Florida" etc.

It seems that they think I've never seen an atlas.
It's possible they think you're geographically dense or something, as you say. Certainly, I've never heard anyone announce to me, "I'm from New York, New York!" Hell, many of those from New York City, if they don't just go straight to saying their borough of origin, just say they're from "New York".

For what it's worth, the way I tend to tell it to people, I live in Chicago, but I'm from Florida. "Florida" is easier to say than "St. Petersburg", plenty specific enough, and is less likely to get confused with a location in Russia.

[Siam Sam]

That's true, New York City is not one I've heard identified along with the state, unless they're giving a mailing address or singing that song.

[kunilou]

There are 30 cities and towns named Franklin, 29 named Clinton and a number of other names attached to more than 20 locations, so adding a state name does sometimes eliminate confusion.

But mostly it's because the U.S. is such a damn big nation. It's not really that informative to say "I'm from Brownsville," -- a rather generic place name that is found in 18 states -- or "I'm from Texas," -- when Texas is larger than France. "I'm from Brownsville, Texas" narrows it down considerably.

[Siam Sam]

There are 30 cities and towns named Franklin, 29 named Clinton and a number of other names attached to more than 20 locations, so adding a state name does sometimes eliminate confusion.

But mostly it's because the U.S. is such a damn big nation. It's not really that informative to say "I'm from Brownsville," -- a rather generic place name that is found in 18 states -- or "I'm from Texas," -- when Texas is larger than France. "I'm from Brownsville, Texas" narrows it down considerably.

It is true, though, that it's done with some cities that are large enough you'd think it would be understood. Houston, Texas is one I heard a lot even when I lived *in* Texas.

[Baron Skinley Von Clipper]

Ah, but I believe there are other towns called Paris too, in other states. And the only reason people have heard of Paris, Texas is because of the movie. Most people probably want to be identified with a state rather than just "the South." Not sure why this would really bother anyone, to tell you the truth.

It doesn't bother me at all, I was just wondering why people feel the need to point it out. Paris is probably not the best example.
New York needs no further explanation, nor does Oklahoma city or Houston.

[Hilarity N. Suze]

I like to think a person from England would know that Los Angeles was California and New York was New York, and it's not that hard to figure out which state Oklahoma City is in (although there is an Arkansas City that is not in Arkansas and a Kansas City that's not in Kansas). But I wouldn't necessarily expect a person from England to even know the names of all the states in the US, let alone that Las Vegas might be Nevada or it might be New Mexico. They are just trying to narrow it down for you.

I used to tell people I was from Los Angeles. I wasn't really--but I figured they knew of or had heard of LA, whereas they probably wouldn't have heard of Lemon Heights. For a person in England I probably would have just said California and left it at that.

[matt_mcl]

We do it a fair amount in Canada too, though not as much as in the US (we probably say "Toronto, Ontario" less than Americans say "Chicago, Illinois," but substantially more than, say, Germans say "Dresden, Saxony"). I imagine it's for two reasons:

1) a very strong federalist tradition, combined with
2) obligatorily writing the city and province/state/territory on addresses. (It's always "New York NY" or "Toronto ON" and so forth, which it rarely is in other countries -- you don't write "Marseille, Bouches-du-Rhône" or "Madrid, Provincia de Madrid", you just write Paris or Madrid.)

It's a quirk of North American speech. We probably say "Paris, France" and "London, England" and "Tokyo, Japan" more than other English-speakers and speakers of other languages do.

[BorgHunter]

It is true, though, that it's done with some cities that are large enough you'd think it would be understood. Houston, Texas is one I heard a lot even when I lived *in* Texas.
Yeah, but that's Texas. Texans, as a general rule, have a compulsive need to inform everyone around them of their Texan-ness, even when they're in Texas at that particular moment.

[Siam Sam]

Oklahoma City is not one I've ever heard identified with state, again unless they're telling a mailing address, as in "1234 Main Street, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma." Except for a case like that, usually if the state's name is incorporated in the city's name -- like New York or Texas City -- the state is also not identified except for ironic purposes.

Ironic purposes I'm sure is part of why I'd here "Houston, Texas" even when I was in Texas, just rednecks trying to play up their redneckness.

[Siam Sam]

Yeah, but that's Texas. Texans, as a general rule, have a compulsive need to inform everyone around them of their Texan-ness, even when they're in Texas at that particular moment.

Ironic purposes I'm sure is part of why I'd here "Houston, Texas" even when I was in Texas, just rednecks trying to play up their redneckness.

I see you've been to Texas. :D

[RealityChuck]

Well, in general, New Yorkers just say they're from "New York" or, perhaps "the City.*"

"New York, New York" comes from a variety of things.

1. When giving a mailing address, you always give the city and state (640 Broadway, New York, New York**). Many businesses were headquartered in New York City, so if they were asking for you to send a letter (back a century ago), they'd say "New York, New York." It became even more common on the radio. People got used to the usage.

2. The phrase started being used in songs: "New York, New York, it's a wonderful town/the Bronx is up and the Battery's down." Thus, people got even more used to hearing it.

As far as other cities are concerned, it depends on the size of the city. Newspaper style manuals have lists of cites that don't require any state when their in an article; some include Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Boston, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Denver, Phoenix, St. Louis, New Orleans, Miami, etc. As a rule of thumb, if a city has a major league sports team, you don't specify the state, even if there could be confusion (e.g., Portland means Oregon, not Maine). In a case where there are two cities with the same name, the bigger one can go without the state designation, while the smaller one gets it (e.g., Portland vs. Portland, ME), unless one city is nearer to you than the other (if you live in Maine, Portland is Maine, while Portland, OR, is the other city).

So, in general, large cities don't mention the state; smaller cities do. What defines "large" and "small" is a matter of opinion.

*I understand San Francisco uses this, too.

**The address of the Empire State Building. No, not that Empire State Building. The other one.

[Markxxx]

This is an ongoing gripe with the city in North Carolina called Charlotte. Newspapers genearlly have a set of cities that they always "qualify," and those that they don't. For instance, they wouldn't qualify Chicago or Philadelphia. But they still say Charlotte, North Carolina. Charlotte always makes the push that they are big enough and well enough known so they don't need the qualifier anymore.

That said, when I listen to shortwave, it still sounds odd to me when foreign stations called it Chicago, USA or Philadelphia, The United States or even Kansas City, USA. I'm so used to the qualifer being a state and not the nation.

Remember the episode of All In The Family when Archie got into trouble for sending a shipment to London, England instead of London, Ontario.

[needscoffee]

I never considered "New York, New York" (the song) meant NYC, NY. I always assumed the name was being repeated, like "Chicago, Chicago, that wonderful town..." Oops.

[Siam Sam]

That said, when I listen to shortwave, it still sounds odd to me when foreign stations called it Chicago, USA or Philadelphia, The United States or even Kansas City, USA. I'm so used to the qualifer being a state and not the nation.

Time magazine -- at least the Asian or international edition -- used to do this in the Letters section, and it annoyed me no end. They've since begun identifying the state along with the country.

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

We do it a fair amount in Canada too, though not as much as in the US (we probably say "Toronto, Ontario" less than Americans say "Chicago, Illinois," but substantially more than, say, Germans say "Dresden, Saxony"). I imagine it's for two reasons:

1) a very strong federalist tradition, combined with
2) obligatorily writing the city and province/state/territory on addresses. (It's always "New York NY" or "Toronto ON" and so forth, which it rarely is in other countries -- you don't write "Marseille, Bouches-du-Rhône" or "Madrid, Provincia de Madrid", you just write Paris or Madrid.)

It's a quirk of North American speech. We probably say "Paris, France" and "London, England" and "Tokyo, Japan" more than other English-speakers and speakers of other languages do.

Opinion Warning!

It isn't that it's incorrect, but I find it grating when someone says "Canadian City, Canada" rather than "Canadian City, Province", i. e. Niagara Falls, Canada rather than Niagara Falls, Ontario.

In the case of the USA, "Springfield, USA" tells me nothing about where someone is from. Likewise "Portland", "Lincoln", "Jefferson", etc., etc.

[suranyi]

I think that RealityChuck has the right idea: When writing mailing addresses, the state is always included, so it kind of sticks as part of the city's name. There used to be a lot of advertising that called for people to write to so-and-so in "New York, New York" back in the 60s, it's got a kind of catchy rhythm.

That said, the Associated Press style has a specific listing of 30 cities that stand alone in datelines and text. All other cities need a state. Here are the 30:

Atlanta Detroit Minneapolis Salt Lake City
Baltimore Honolulu New Orleans San Antonio
Boston Houston New York San Diego
Chicago Indianapolis Oklahoma City San Francisco
Cincinnati Las Vegas Philadelphia Seattle
Cleveland Los Angeles Phoenix Washington
Dallas Miami Pittsburgh Denver Milwaukee St. Louis

There is also a list of cities outside the U.S. for which a country specifier is not needed, but I can't find it at the moment.

[Mahaloth]

I've traveled all around the world and never seen this.

I really question the initial assumption.

[billfish678]

I for one certainly prefer TOO much info rather than too little.

I've lost count of how many times somebody told me that they are from XZY and I have no fricking clue what state it is even in, much less what part.

My SO is even worse. She often talks about a town she lived in that is basically a suburb of a bigger town. Not only is it a town most people havent heard of, she doesnt even tell em the state either. Whenever she tells em about it, folks are like "where is that?". She then tells them its just outside of ABC, at which point they go "ohhh".

Just fracking tell em "when I lived in ABC" even if it technically isnt correct!

[TurboNuke]

It's common for people to say New York, New York because if you just say New York it might mean New York state.

[BorgHunter]

It's common for people to say New York, New York because if you just say New York it might mean New York state.
It isn't here. Where do you assert is this common? As I've said, in my experience, those from New York City say they're from Brooklyn, or Queens, or whatever, or occasionally just "New York". Those from elsewhere in New York State say they're from City X (e.g. Albany, Utica), "upstate New York", or occasionally just "New York". I have literally never heard anyone identify their hometown as "New York, New York" in conversation.

[Lare]

I was just about to post what TurboNuke said. Especially in the States, someone might say "I'm from New York" and then have to qualify it with "Buffalo, not New York City" as they're almost 300 miles (~470km) apart.

ETA after BorgHunter's post: I'm in Phoenix (no qualifying state needed per upthread) and I spend most of my day on the phone talking to people around the country. I've run into this twice this week which is why (I guess) it was fresh in my mind.

[BorgHunter]

Man, that's weird. Excessive redundancy is not a trait I would generally associate with New Yorkers, yet a non-trivial number of people have reported this weird "New York, New York" nonsense. I guess there are a lot of wannabe Sinatras out there.

[CoolHandCox]

I say "Houston, Texas" when I'm speaking with foreigners. I assume people have not heard of Houston, but probably have heard of Texas. So this way they have an idea of where I'm from than if I just said Houston.

I really don't have a clue what the fourth largest cities are in most other big countries. I wouldn't know that Shenzhen is a city in China. I wouldn't know that Fortaleza or Salvador is a city in Brasil. I wouldn't know that Nagoya is in Japan. I wouldn't know that Nizhny Novgorod was in Russia. Ect. Ect. Ect. I mean, I could probably figure it out, but I didn't know this really until I just looked them up.

So if someone said, Hi, I'm from Fortaleza, I wouldn't know where they are from. It's bigger than the cities of San Francisco, Vienna, and Helsinki that you used in your example. Maybe it depends on how famous a city is.

[C K Dexter Haven]

GARY, Indiana
Gary, IN-diana,
Gary, Indi-ANA
Not New York, Paree, or Nome.*


* Yes, I know, it's a joke.

[Fubaya]

I would personally want someone to say "New York, New York" or "New York City" because "New York" alone tells me nothing. I would assume they mean the state because that's obviously correct, but the city could be anywhere.

I suspect people say the "long" name to foreigners more than they would in the US just to give as much information as possible. I don't know why people would add the state to L.A. or Houston, but if it weren't one of the few largest cities, I would feel a little strange only naming the city, as if I'm the dumb American who expects everyone to know where I'm talking about.

Of course, if there were any confusion, I'd know to just speak louder and get angry until they understood.

[Bytegeist]

I've traveled all around the world and never seen this. I really question the initial assumption.

The OP is talking about Americans having this habit. Not people around the world in general. And yes, I think we (Americans) do this a lot.


I just started working with someone who is from "Oklahoma city, Oklahoma". but I've also met several people who tell me they are from "New York, New York" or "Houston, Texas" or "Fort Lauderdale, Florida" etc.

It seems that they think I've never seen an atlas.

We're not always sure which of our cities you're familiar with. New York is pretty obvious, of course, and I suppose the riddle of where Oklahoma City is to be found can be puzzled out without much mental strain.

But, I wouldn't have guessed that you (an Englishman?) would necessarily recognize Fort Lauderdale, unless you just love poring through your atlas. The city is fairly well known here, but doesn't normally make big national or international news.

[elfkin477]

Why do Americans always refer to cities by both their name and the state (or country) they are located in?

Is there more than one New York? more than one Los Angeles? more than one San Francisco? more than one Helsinki, Moscow, Vienna or Paris? Yes, there's more than one Paris. There's the one in France, one in IL, one in ME...There's a Vienna in VA. And a Moscow in Idaho.


Let's play a game with just US cities this time. I say "Portland." Think fast, where's that?

Nope, not Oregon. I meant the one just north of me in Maine. How about Rochester? Do I mean the one in NY, or NH? Or Dover - NH, MA, OH, DL? How are you supposed to know any of these, or the thousands of other places with duplicate names, if we don't tell you which one we mean?

[Acsenray]

Within the United States, it's pretty much necessary when you're talking about any place that's not within that top 30 or so cities. Now of course we don't specify when we're talking to someone who already knows very well which one they mean. But we do specify when we are talking to someone who isn't likely to be familiar with our specific locality. From there, it just becomes habit to use that form, even for larger cities. Anyway, why take the chance of miscommunication?

For many Americans, the city-state combination just feels like it is the "formal" name of the place and so it's a habit to use it with people from other places. We go ahead and expand that to places outside the United States as well. "Paris, France," and "London, England," sound perfectly natural to us, although we probably wouldn't say it if there were absolutely no chance of ambiguity. If we're in France talking to a Frenchman, then it would probably just be "Paris." Or if all participants in a conversation are working for a company that has an office in Paris, France, we probably wouldn't specify either.

But if there's no other contextual cues, it wouldn't necessarily be strange (depending on other social and cultural cues) to say "I'm going to Paris, France, this summer" because there might not be any other contextual information that would make just "Paris" unambiguous. And there very well might be a "Paris" not to far from where you're standing anyway.

As a rule of thumb, if a city has a major league sports team, you don't specify the state, even if there could be confusion (e.g., Portland means Oregon, not Maine). In a case where there are two cities with the same name, the bigger one can go without the state designation, while the smaller one gets it (e.g., Portland vs. Portland, ME), unless one city is nearer to you than the other (if you live in Maine, Portland is Maine, while Portland, OR, is the other city).

I don't know whose rule of thumb this is, but it's not one used by American newspapers. AP style requires you to specify "Portland, Ore." or "Portland, Maine." (AP style also doesn't use those ugly two-capital postal abbreviations, which in my view should be restricted to postal use. And in international fora like this message board, I think it's better to avoid abbreviations altogether.) Same with Kansas City, Missouri, and Kansas City, Kansas.

(The majority of Americans would have no idea which of those pairs is the larger one, anyway, I think. I'm sure a significant proportion have no idea whether the major league sports teams are on the Kansas or Missouri side of the border.)

[TurboNuke]

It isn't here. Where do you assert is this common? As I've said, in my experience, those from New York City say they're from Brooklyn, or Queens, or whatever, or occasionally just "New York". Those from elsewhere in New York State say they're from City X (e.g. Albany, Utica), "upstate New York", or occasionally just "New York". I have literally never heard anyone identify their hometown as "New York, New York" in conversation.

Yeah, sorry saying it's common isn't correct.

Actually, here it's called the City.

[xnylder]

Opinion Warning!

It isn't that it's incorrect, but I find it grating when someone says "Canadian City, Canada" rather than "Canadian City, Province", i. e. Niagara Falls, Canada rather than Niagara Falls, Ontario.

In the case of the USA, "Springfield, USA" tells me nothing about where someone is from. Likewise "Portland", "Lincoln", "Jefferson", etc., etc.

Hijacked to say, this is a major pet peeve for me too. American game shows are the worst: "Here's our contestants: Louis from Albany, New York; Charles from Miami, Florida; and Anne from Victoria, Canada." You'd think the announcer would add the province name, at least for consistency's sake.

And yes, it is a good idea to include the Canadian province along with the city name. Saints and royalty feature prominently in our toponyms, and there's only so many to go around.

[Baron Skinley Von Clipper]

Just found this in the "what does desalinised water taste like?" thread;


"Worst water I have ever drank was in Huron, SD. Water here in Bogota, Colombia is very good."

Would anyone here have been confused if the guy just said Bogota?

[Baron Skinley Von Clipper]

Yes, there's more than one Paris. There's the one in France, one in IL, one in ME...There's a Vienna in VA. And a Moscow in Idaho.


Let's play a game with just US cities this time. I say "Portland." Think fast, where's that?

Nope, not Oregon. I meant the one just north of me in Maine. How about Rochester? Do I mean the one in NY, or NH? Or Dover - NH, MA, OH, DL? How are you supposed to know any of these, or the thousands of other places with duplicate names, if we don't tell you which one we mean?


Ok, my turn.

I say "Los Angeles." Think fast, where's that?

Correct, it's in California as pretty much everyone on the planet knows. It needs no further explanation. This is the point I was trying to make.

[Marley23]

Just found this in the "what does desalinised water taste like?" thread;


"Worst water I have ever drank was in Huron, SD. Water here in Bogota, Colombia is very good."

Would anyone here have been confused if the guy just said Bogota?
There is a Bogota in New Jersey, in fact. Although absent any other context I am sure most people would assume Bogota means the capital of Colombia.

[dtilque]

There are 30 cities and towns named Franklin, 29 named Clinton and a number of other names attached to more than 20 locations, so adding a state name does sometimes eliminate confusion.

There are places named Riverside in 46 of the 50 states. Many are unincorporated localities, though. The states without one are Alaska, Hawaii, Louisiana, and Oklahoma. There used to be a Riverside in OK some 100+ years ago and, if several genealogical documents found on the net are correct, there was one in LA in the same era.

[septimus]

Just within our province there are at least three same-named villages whose name means "Spring Water" and at least three same-named villages "Deep Well."

Almost every Province shares a name with its largest city but while the postal address for Lopburi City would be the equivalent of "City District, Lopburi Province", someone in that Province going to the city might say, confusingly, they're "going to the Province."

[Bijou Drains]

This is an ongoing gripe with the city in North Carolina called Charlotte. Newspapers genearlly have a set of cities that they always "qualify," and those that they don't. For instance, they wouldn't qualify Chicago or Philadelphia. But they still say Charlotte, North Carolina. Charlotte always makes the push that they are big enough and well enough known so they don't need the qualifier anymore.



Charlotte has always been very big on image and wanting to seem like a big city. Another odd thing is that the central part of Charlotte is not called downtown , they call it uptown. The reason? The word "down" has a negative feeling and they don't want to seem negative.

[LSLGuy]

Ok, my turn.

I say "Los Angeles." Think fast, where's that?

Correct, it's in California as pretty much everyone on the planet knows. It needs no further explanation. This is the point I was trying to make.Point made. But consider this ...

Americans have long been considered insular and clueless about all things outside their borders. What you're seeing is the rough beginnings of us learning to think a bit from a non-American point of view.

30 years ago your American counterpart would have announced "I'm from Houston" and never have thought for a moment about whether that made any sense to you. And 30 years ago it may not have.

Now we're bending over backwards a bit: "Springfield, Illinois. It's the state capital and near the center of the country, just below one of the Great Lakes."

Soon enough (20 years?) we'll get the tone right.



Meantime, you (the OP) may be well-aquainted with major US cities. But if we ask some villager in Sheepchase-Upon-The-Moors, Nowherechester DN6 9SF where Albuquerque, St. Louis, or Atlanta are, I bet he/she won't get all three. And those are large cities / metro areas with unique names (other than tiny locales nobody's heard of).

[LSLGuy]

There are places named Riverside in 46 of the 50 states. Many are unincorporated localities, though. The states without one are Alaska, Hawaii, Louisiana, and Oklahoma. There used to be a Riverside in OK some 100+ years ago and, if several genealogical documents found on the net are correct, there was one in LA in the same era.There still is a Riverside county http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverside_County,_California and city http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverside,_California in the LA area. They date from the 1890s & 1870s respectively.

[Acsenray]

Ok, my turn.

I say "Los Angeles." Think fast, where's that?

Correct, it's in California as pretty much everyone on the planet knows. It needs no further explanation. This is the point I was trying to make.

As I said before, to Americans, "Los Angeles, California," in full has the feel of a proper name. We don't necessarily think we're explaining something to someone, just giving its full name. Sometimes we say "Obama" by itself, but sometimes we'll use his full name, Barack Obama, just because it feels appropriate to. Or "U.K." or "U.S." as opposed to "United Kingdom" or "United States." If someone says the full name, do you think "What, do you think I'm stupid?"

That feeling carries over to "London, England," or "Bogota, Colombia," We don't necessarily think the listener is stupid. We just sometimes feel it appropriate to use what sounds to our ears as a place's full name.

To American ears, it's never wrong to specify.

[BorgHunter]

There still is a Riverside county http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverside_County,_California and city http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverside,_California in the LA area. They date from the 1890s & 1870s respectively.
In context, I believe the LA in that post was meant to be Louisiana, not Los Angeles.

[In Winnipeg]

It's just a member of being specific, since so few people, we are led to believe, have maps.

[KneadToKnow]

I really question the initial assumption.

Me too.


Knead
Grover’s Corners
Sutton County
New Hampshire
United States of America
North America
Western Hemisphere
The Earth
The Solar System
The Universe
The Mind of God

[Dravin]

It doesn't bother me at all, I was just wondering why people feel the need to point it out. Paris is probably not the best example.
New York needs no further explanation, nor does Oklahoma city or Houston.

According to Wiki there is a Houston in:

Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Oh, and there is one in Canada and Scotland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_(disambiguation)

Miami also isn't as unique as someone above suggested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_(disambiguation)

As far as those cities that do not share a duplicate, such as Los Angeles or Oklahoma City the number of duplicates create a convention. If you grow up with everyone clarifying which Springfield they are from it would be fairly easy to include the state in the name out of habit or a sense of completeness.

[jasonh300]

Opinion Warning!

It isn't that it's incorrect, but I find it grating when someone says "Canadian City, Canada" rather than "Canadian City, Province", i. e. Niagara Falls, Canada rather than Niagara Falls, Ontario.

It may not be incorrect, but it's really bad form. You may be able to get away with it with Niagara Falls, since there's no other Niagara Falls in Canada, (you're saying Canada to differentiate from Niagara Falls, USA, which is a very important distinction).

I'm from New Orleans, Louisiana, and while I could get away with just "New Orleans", I always specify Louisiana to anyone who's not from around here. You never know if you're speaking with someone who's geographically ignorant. Niagara Falls, Canada, to someone who has never been properly educated, may inspire images of it being a great frozen wasteland at the North Pole. At least they might be able to find ONTARIO on a map.

Back to the example of "Paris"...there are 17 Paris' in the U.S.A. and 2 in Canada, not to mention the BIG one in France. If someone just said "Paris", I'd assume they were talking about Paris, Kiribati (okay, I'll admit, I had to look up Republic of Kiribati (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribati) to find out where that is). Back to real life, if the person said "Paris, USA", I would have no useful information without a state added onto that. "Paris, Canada" would give a choice between Ontario and the Yukon, which really aren't all that close together.

On the smaller end of the scale, there's only one Tylertown (population 1,910) in the United States (in the world?). I can think of only a few dopers who I'd expect to know what state that's in without looking it up.

[dtilque]

In context, I believe the LA in that post was meant to be Louisiana, not Los Angeles.

Indeed, it was. Now if I'd said LA LA Land, then I'd have meant Los Angeles, Louisiana... Actually, there is another Los Angeles in the US (in Texas).

BTW, there's also a number of other New Yorks, including at least 4 in England. Just checking on Wikipedia, it seems there are no fewer than 6 Californias in England and one in Scotland. I knew there was one over there, but seven???

[cochrane]

I was born in Johnstown, PA. I will mention both the city and the state, even though Johnstown is probably familiar to enough people, either from having three devastating floods or from the movie "Slap Shot," one or the other. Just saying Johnstown without the state might not be enough to narrow it down, especially for people outside of the U.S. It is too small to not need the state after it, and there are at least a couple of other Johnstowns, one in New York and one in Ohio.

I currently live in Tucson, and previously lived in Denver. Both cities are large enough that people are familiar with them without having to mention the state.

[kunilou]

How about Rochester? Do I mean the one in NY, or NH?

Don't be silly. You mean the one in Minnesota, where the Mayo Clinic is located.

Here's a fun 'n ez quiz. The following cities are all anchors of metropolitan areas with more than one million people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas)-- in other words, they're big cities. Before you look, are you absolutely sure of which state they're in?

Birmingham
Columbus
Jacksonville
Portland
Providence
Richmond
Riverside
Rochester

When I was studying in Europe, I found to my dismay that most people had never heard of my home town, much less had any idea of where it was. My home town was St. Louis, and about the only thing that made any sense to people was when I said "it's 500 kilometers from Chicago."

[bonzer]

As a Brit who'd often enough marschalled a drunken chorusline to the Sinatra song at the end of a student disco and who had seen the Scorsese film, I must admit that it was an odd moment on arriving in Penn Station from New Jersey and having the announcer proclaim "New York, New York" as the final destination. First time I actually got the reference.

That aside, I'm not really sure it's any different from us Brits distinguishing between Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Newcastle-under-Lyme, as required.

[Kyla]

This is reminding me of some (online) discussions with an English friend. She's well-educated, very intelligent, and has visited the US - and occasionally she's realized that an idea she had about American geography is entirely wrong. Two that I can think of off the top of my head that are relevant:

1. Maine is in the northeast. She was shocked to realize this. She had mentally decided it was in the Midwest.

2. Buffalo is in New York. She thought it was in...Texas. (Obviously she doesn't have much experience with Texans and their habit of referring to Texas and what's in Texas and how large Texas is and how they're from Texas every ten minutes.)

I've never heard someone say that they're from "New York City, New York." In fact, in my experience, New Yorkers are more likely to go the other way, and assume that everyone in the world is so incredibly familiar with New York that they can say what neighborhood they're from and I'll know where that is. Like the one guy I knew who told me he was from Astoria and acted like I should know where that was. (It turned out to be a neighborhood in Queens. I had never been to New York in my life at that point, and I've still never been to Queens. Why should I know where Astoria is?)

[Canadjun]

There is a Paris, Texas. And an Odessa in Texas, Canada and Russia.

There is also a Paris Ontario. For that matter there is a London England and London Ontario.

[dtilque]

Like the one guy I knew who told me he was from Astoria and acted like I should know where that was. (It turned out to be a neighborhood in Queens. I had never been to New York in my life at that point, and I've still never been to Queens. Why should I know where Astoria is?)

Astoria is at the mouth of the Columbia River in Oregon -- I thought everyone knew that.

[LSLGuy]

In context, I believe the LA in that post was meant to be Louisiana, not Los Angeles.D'oh!!

Pretty obvious to boot if one actually reads every word of the post one was replying to. One shall have to try that next time.

[sugar and spice]

I will say I'm from Buffalo NY because there actually is a Buffalo Grove around here, I've had people assume "Buffalo" is short for that. And it adds context. Even if they could correctly answer "In which state do the Buffalo Bills play: (a) New Jersey (b) New York (c) Texas (d) Wyoming", my saying "__, NY" saves them the mental step of figuring out that I'm talking about the city in another state, not a nearby town or neighborhood they may have heard of once or twice.

But I hear places like NY and LA as stand alone city names all the time. I don't think I ever hear "New York, New York" except on game shows.

[wolfstu]

There is also a Paris Ontario. For that matter there is a London England and London Ontario.

Yeah, a quick look at a map of Ontario shows we weren't very original with our toponyms. I mean, in the British Empire, did we really need another London? Never mind Windsor and Chatham and Stratford and Cambridge and... Brussels and Heidelberg and Waterloo and Khartum and Hanover and Uppsala...

In fact, I'm moving to London (ON) soon, and I've been looking for some convenient way to refer to it unambiguously without constantly repeating the name of the province. I have some European friends who will no doubt assume I'm moving back to that side of the Ocean. So far I've been calling it "London -- that less glamorous one over here", and pointing to the west.

LondON ?
Londontario?

And while we're on the topic, where does that town's university get off calling itself what it does (http://www.uwo.ca/), anyway? As far as I'm concerned, only Thunder Bay (http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=ontario&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=&hnear=Ontario&ll=46.164614,-84.04541&spn=7.623634,19.753418&z=6) can claim to have (http://www.lakeheadu.ca/) a "university of western Ontario". ;)

Anyway, as for the "City, State" convention (in Canada, "City, Province"), it's not just for ambiguity of multiple same-named communities, but also because both Canada and the US are geographically very large countries. While I might reasonably be expected to recognize the names of capital cities of Canadian provinces/territories (there are only 13), I can't be expected to be familiar with every village in a sparsely settled region the size of Europe. So when a national news report describes events in a major city such as Montreal, it's not necessary to specify the province, since that city is well-known to people who live 3000 kilometres away, and even to people who live outside of Canada. But if the national news describes events in Val-d'Or, it's possible people from four provinces over might not be familiar with this smaller community. In that case, to give some geographic context, it's common to give the name of the province as well: "Val-d'Or, Quebec". In a regional newscast directed at an audience from only Quebec, for example, the name of the province would likely be left out. And someone introducing himself and describing his place of residence might simply give the name of the city.

In the United States, where there are over four dozen state capitals, and many of them are fairly small and obscure places little known outside their states, even this exception doesn't really apply. And there are so many towns in a country that big with 300 million inhabitants that it makes sense to add an extra georeference to it. Aside from the biggest cities with the largest cultural, economic, or political importance, it's common to use this sort of binomial form. I have a feeling it's also related to the way people identify with their state of residence/origin, as well.

[Acsenray]

.there are 17 Paris'.

Forgive the nitpick, but this is s peeve: There are 17 Parises.

[Shagnasty]

Yeah, a quick look at a map of Ontario shows we weren't very original with our toponyms. I mean, in the British Empire, did we really need another London? Never mind Windsor and Chatham and Stratford and Cambridge and... Brussels and Heidelberg and Waterloo and Khartum and Hanover and Uppsala...

The New England States (U.S.) are especially guilty of this type of thing. The name New England should be the first clue. There are six New England states and they are small compared to most of the others. I can be in any single one of them in two hours from here but boy did those settlers lack originality. There are duplicate place names all over and they aren't even that far apart. They just plagiarized the hell out of the town and city names in England off of a rather short list and apparently the state founders cheated off each others answers as well. You can't responsibly reference many New England town names without the state appended unless you are sure the person knows what you are referring to. There could be another one in a different state not very far away.

I agree that it is just good form anywhere for people that you aren't familiar with. The New York state versus New York City issue is important for people that live in New York state far outside New York City because the demographics and environment are completely different even geographically. I have a SIL who has a habit of confusing the hell out of people she doesn't know because of where she lives. She lives in Indiana and can talk about it on and on. Don't mention Hoosiers or the Midwest though if you try to make conversation. She knows nothing about that because her state is Pennsylvania.

[Jackmannii]

Few New Yorkers would ever announce themselves as coming from "New York, New York" (unless they were speaking to an obvious gibbering idiot). Manhattanites and some from other boroughs would say New York City, and most outer borough residents would mention the borough name and (maybe) New York City for orientation purposes. I'm originally from Staten Island and would just say that to another person in this country, but might add NYC or New York to clarify matters to one of them European provincial types who don't get out much.

[AHunter3]

...more than one Helsinki, Moscow, Vienna or Paris?

umm, well, YEAH! Are you unfamiliar with Paris, Texas? Moscow, Idaho? Vienna, Wisconsin? Dunno about Helsinikis but there's a fairly large Athens, Georgia as well as a less impressive Rome and Albany in that state; Ontario has a London, Massachusetts has a Cambridge, and Alabama has a pretty respectable Birmingham.

but New York is "the City".

There ain't no other.

[Siam Sam]

I'm thinking now of a friend who worked for a nationwide chain of test-taking schools in Thailand that had catalogues with details of schools in the US that students could apply to, state by state. These were mostly for graduate school. They had to post signs telling the students that Chicago was in Illinois, because so many of the students wanting to study in Chicago asked why those schools weren't listed. They didn't realize they needed to look under Illinois.

[Shagnasty]

but New York is "the City".

They like to think that but the first time I heard the term "The City" used in that context was in college where lots of people were from NYC. Believe it or not, a huge percentage of Americans have never been to NYC and lots express no interest in ever going. I have barely been there myself being well traveled and living a little north in the Boston area. I liked it just fine the very short times I was there but NYC has a major arrogance problem in regards to the way that other Americans regard it. I would venture to say that most people over 30 wouldn't live there housing paid.

[RickJay]

2) obligatorily writing the city and province/state/territory on addresses.
Bingo.

In Canada and the USA, addresses are ALWAYS written with the state/province/territory name. On any letter, package, any website, any business address, ANY formal refernece to an address,, the subfederal jurisdiction is always applied. So we just get used to thinking of it that way.

The fact that place names repeat is rarely an issue except in specific cases; I have never known anyone to confuse London, England and London, Ontario, or get mixed up between Kingston, Ontario versus Kingston, Jamaica versus Kingston, NY. I live in Burlington, Ontario and have never been vexed by confusion with any of the other Burlingtons.

But when you see it written "City, State" or "City, Province" all the time, it becomes habit. The USA and Canada are VERY federal; their federal organization is one of their defining features.

[AHunter3]

They like to think that but the first time I heard the term "The City" used in that context was in college where lots of people were from NYC. Believe it or not, a huge percentage of Americans have never been to NYC and lots express no interest in ever going. I have barely been there myself being well traveled and living a little north in the Boston area. I liked it just fine the very short times I was there but NYC has a major arrogance problem in regards to the way that other Americans regard it. I would venture to say that most people over 30 wouldn't live there housing paid.

Yes, but are those people New Yorkers?

Like we're supposed to care about the opinions of people who aren't New Yorkers or something?

[Cardinal]

Yeah, but that's Texas. Texans, as a general rule, have a compulsive need to inform everyone around them of their Texan-ness, even when they're in Texas at that particular moment.I'm not sure I've met people from an actual country who are as stuck on their place of origin as many Texans are.

My college buddy said he thought that when he went to California, there would be a general "my state is better than yours" joking contest, but he found that people just gave him a cold stare. He quit that, pretty much. He thought all states made a huge deal about themselves in the same way. For instance, I have no real idea why I'm supposed to be so impressed that Texas was a country for about 10 years. If it was so awesome, why did you petition to become part of the USA?

[Cardinal]

I have a SIL who has a habit of confusing the hell out of people she doesn't know because of where she lives. She lives in Indiana and can talk about it on and on. Don't mention Hoosiers or the Midwest though if you try to make conversation. She knows nothing about that because her state is Pennsylvania.I cannot make sense of these statements.

[alphaboi867]

...They had to post signs telling the students that Chicago was in Illinois, because so many of the students wanting to study in Chicago asked why those schools weren't listed. They didn't realize they needed to look under Illinois.

I once helped an Afghani guy who was trying to drive to the Afghani Embassy in Washington, DC for some reason (I think he started in NYC). He had a GPS and it took me a couple minutes to realize that he'd somehow managed to set it for some random small town in Washington state that had a similar name to the street the embassy on on in Washingon, DC. :smack: He didn't realize that there was a state called Washington as well, and the national capital is usually placed in listes of states under District of Columbia to avoid confusion. I wondered if he really could've gotten all the way to the West Coast.

[Siam Sam]

I once helped an Afghani guy who was trying to drive to the Afghani Embassy in Washington, DC for some reason (I think he started in NYC). He had a GPS and it took me a couple minutes to realize that he'd somehow managed to set it for some random small town in Washington state that had a similar name to the street the embassy on on in Washingon, DC. :smack: He didn't realize that there was a state called Washington as well, and the national capital is usually placed in listes of states under District of Columbia to avoid confusion. I wondered if he really could've gotten all the way to the West Coast.

Nitpick: The people are Afghans, the monetary currency is the Afghani.

But that's like the wife's cousins. They never studied in the US but did look into it at one point and wanted me to tell them about the University of Washington DC. I said there was no such school. They said sure there was and showed me some info. It was the U of Washington in Seattle.

[dtilque]

I cannot make sense of these statements.

The SiL comes from Indiana PA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana,_PA)

[Siam Sam]

And of course there's Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Pittsburg (no H), Kansas.

[salinqmind]

There is a Mexico, Russia, Poland, Athens, and Berlin, New York. Small towns, but there they are. One would be better off saying, "I'm from Upstate NY".

[Markxxx]

It isn't here. Where do you assert is this common? As I've said, in my experience, those from New York City say they're from Brooklyn, or Queens, or whatever, or occasionally just "New York". Those from elsewhere in New York State say they're from City X (e.g. Albany, Utica), "upstate New York", or occasionally just "New York". I have literally never heard anyone identify their hometown as "New York, New York" in conversation.

I agree to an extent. In the past especially people from Brooklyn were very proud of their "city." In fact Brooklyn was an independent city.

I found that people from Brooklyn or Queens or the Bronx, will say they are from those places, to locals or to people from the area but use New York if the distance is greater

For instance, I know of people from Brooklyn. If someone from Philadelphia or Boston would ask, "Where are you from," they would say "Brooklyn." But if someone from Seattle says, "Where are you from"? The same person would say New York

[yabob]

And of course there's Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Pittsburg (no H), Kansas.
Not to mention Pittsburg, CA (I usually don't). Right next to Antioch, which I'll bet you thought was in Turkey.

BTW, concerning names simply being randomly chosen, look at the names of a lot of the towns along US 2 in northern Montana. Malta, Havre, Glasgow, ... The standard explanation you hear is echoed in this news article about Malta:
The Great Northern Railway, which was built along the Hi-Line in the late 1880s, brought Malta and other towns in the area to life.

Railroad siding Number 54 established in 1887 was named Malta, according to "Montana Place Names: From Alzada to Zortman," recently released by the Montana Historical Society Press.

The name was chosen, as were many others along the Hi-Line, by railroad executives who spun a globe and randomly selected such names as Malta, Glasgow, Harlem, Havre and Zurich.
In California, railroad siding names yielded "Coalinga". Originally "Coaling [Station] A" - the pronunciation mutated so as to bury the origin, and sound far more exotic.

[yabob]

BTW, I've always been suspicious of the "spun a globe" bit. The names chosen seem to be randomly selected from European names. If they actually had spun the globe, I might have expected them to land on a "Peking" or a "Bombay".

Maybe they threw darts at a map of Europe.

[QuercusMax]

One that's confused me a few times is Ontario, California. Fedex has some kind of hub there, and there have been a few times I've seen packages that originated in California appear to teleport themselves to Ontario in just a few hours, and then make their way back across the US. (I live in Ohio.) Never really got confused for more than a few moments, but I can imagine somebody accidentally traveling to Canada instead of California if they're not careful.

[not_alice]

It seems that they think I've never seen an atlas.

How would a stranger know if you have seen an atlas or not.

What youa re describing are two things:

1 - Someone giving you the actual coordinates of where they are from. If they are from New Jersey, there is a very good chance they will mention what exit they are from (8 in my case). You should always ask what exit someone from New Jersey is from.

2 - Probably said with pride related not only to their City, but also their State.

BTW, do you know what state Kansas City is in? No peeking!

[not_alice]

I cannot make sense of these statements.

Indiana, Pennsylvania, where my father's wife is from.

[Polycarp]

umm, well, YEAH! Are you unfamiliar with Paris, Texas? Moscow, Idaho? Vienna, Wisconsin? Dunno about Helsinikis but there's a fairly large Athens, Georgia as well as a less impressive Rome and Albany in that state; Ontario has a London, Massachusetts has a Cambridge, and Alabama has a pretty respectable Birmingham.

but New York is "the City".

There ain't no other.

A former Bishop of Syracuse NY used to get a kick out of the idea that he could celebrate at the high altar of St. Peter's, Rome (http://www.artwanted.com/imageview.cfm?ID=637318), whenever he felt like it.

[jjimm]

I posted a similar thread a few years ago and got accused of being anti-American. That's America, USA of course.

[jasonh300]

Forgive the nitpick, but this is s peeve: There are 17 Parises.

I looked at that after I posted it and knew it was wrong, but was too tired to actually sit and think about why it was wrong and what to do to correct it.

[Kyla]

I posted a similar thread a few years ago and got accused of being anti-American.

It's 'cause we know you're anti-American. We can see it in your beady little furriner eyes.

[minor7flat5]

If they are from New Jersey, there is a very good chance they will mention what exit they are from (8 in my case). You should always ask what exit someone from New Jersey is from.7A.

Though I was from exit 8 for several years.

Of course, when talking to people in Rio de Janeiro, I simply say "near New York" and they get it.

[kunilou]

but New York is "the City".

There ain't no other.

Unless you're in San Francisco. Or St. Louis, which is dividied into "the city" and "the county."

[suranyi]

One that's confused me a few times is Ontario, California. Fedex has some kind of hub there, and there have been a few times I've seen packages that originated in California appear to teleport themselves to Ontario in just a few hours, and then make their way back across the US. (I live in Ohio.) Never really got confused for more than a few moments, but I can imagine somebody accidentally traveling to Canada instead of California if they're not careful.

Ontario International Airport is in California, not far from Los Angeles. In fact, the city of Los Angeles owns it; they bought if from the city of Ontario some years ago.

[tomndebb]

I suspect that the "New York, New York" situation arose from the opposite direction than that proposed by the OP. If one says, "I'm from New York," the first question is liable to be, "The city? Albany?, Buffalo?" In other words, simply saying "New York" can leave the impression that one has only identified the state and not the city. By noting both, the situation is resolved with a single statement.

This does not address references to "Houston, Texas" or similar declarations. I've never actually heard anyone say "Chicago, Illinois" or Los Angeles, California" in casual conversation, and Dallas, Fort Worth, and Austin do not tend to get the state appended, so I am not sure of the origin of "Houston, Texas" although I have heard it expressed that way.

I wonder if there was a time when Houston was small enough to not be recognized by everyone and the state was appended for clarity, then entered the language as simply a habit?

My own guess for such statements would be that the city/state combinations have appeared in songs or movie quotes and have simply entered the language as people grab the terms from memory. I don't recall anyone ever talking about "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania," but I have heard folks mention "Philadelphia, PA" (with the P and A spoken as words), and that phrase appears in a couple of different songs.

[Siam Sam]

This does not address references to "Houston, Texas" or similar declarations. I've never actually heard anyone say "Chicago, Illinois" or Los Angeles, California" in casual conversation, and Dallas, Fort Worth, and Austin do not tend to get the state appended, so I am not sure of the origin of "Houston, Texas" although I have heard it expressed that way.

Other places in the state, too. Over near where I grew up, it was quite common for people to crow about "Lubbock, Texas" to other Texans.

[BrotherCadfael]

I live in Burlington, Ontario and have never been vexed by confusion with any of the other Burlingtons. Clearly, you aren't a sports fan. The Burlington International Games (http://burlingtoninternationalgames.com/about.html) "invit[es] more than 25 North American cities, towns and communities named Burlington to participate".

Burlington, Vermont has hosted these games in the past. Not to be confused with Burlington, Massachusetts.

[jasonh300]

Ontario International Airport is in California, not far from Los Angeles. In fact, the city of Los Angeles owns it; they bought if from the city of Ontario some years ago.

How did they move it all the way from Canada to Los Angeles? Seems like a lot of trouble just for an airport, considering they already have LAX. Is it still called YYZ? ;)








ETA: i just reread your post and see you ruined my joke by saying "city of Ontario".

[Duke of Rat]

Yeah, but that's Texas. Texans, as a general rule, have a compulsive need to inform everyone around them of their Texan-ness, even when they're in Texas at that particular moment.

I've never noticed Texans in Texas including the state name when they mention their origins. If anything, they'll omit it since they figure everybody else is from Texas as well and should know the name of all towns and cities in the state.

[Candyman74]

We go ahead and expand that to places outside the United States as well. "Paris, France," and "London, England," sound perfectly natural to us

It sounds really weird to us.

Besides, there's only one London. The rest are just londons.

[Candyman74]

umm, well, YEAH! Are you unfamiliar with Paris, Texas? Moscow, Idaho? Vienna, Wisconsin? Dunno about Helsinikis but there's a fairly large Athens, Georgia as well as a less impressive Rome and Albany in that state; Ontario has a London, Massachusetts has a Cambridge, and Alabama has a pretty respectable Birmingham.

but New York is "the City".

There ain't no other.

Sure there is. It's called "York". It's not new.

[SciFiSam]

I don't think it can be because Americans include the state as well as the city in mailing addresses - British people do that too. Even London usually requires a county on drop down forms, and the county is Greater London, which includes nothing but London. It's becoming more common to just write the town and postcode, but it's not standard form.

However, I understand the explanations about the sheer number of similarly-named towns making it a habit for people to add the state even when talking about famous cities. That, and being overly-helpful to foreigners. There probably are some people in the UK who wouldn't know where Houston is when talking to an American, but that city's well-known enough that any adult who isn't aware Houston's in Texas probably doesn't care to know either. Still, it is hard to know when to draw the line between helpful and being patronising.

BTW, why are people telling the OP that there's a Paris in France? I would have thought it was pretty clear he was asking if there were others in the US.

But, I wouldn't have guessed that you (an Englishman?) would necessarily recognize Fort Lauderdale, unless you just love poring through your atlas. The city is fairly well known here, but doesn't normally make big national or international news.

I think it's mentioned in quite a few movies and TV shows; it might be the location of a particular famous show, too, but the computer I'm currently on is completely borked and I can't run a search.

[AWB]

Nitpick: The people are Afghans, the monetary currency is the Afghani.

But that's like the wife's cousins. They never studied in the US but did look into it at one point and wanted me to tell them about the University of Washington DC. I said there was no such school. They said sure there was and showed me some info. It was the U of Washington in Seattle.

There is, however, a University of the District of Columbia (http://www.udc.edu/), locally referred to as UDC.

[AWB]

Coincidentally, the year we moved to San Antonio, Texas, we sent our female American Hairless Terrier (AHT) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Hairless_Terrier) to her original breeder in San Antonio, Florida.

[Acsenray]

It sounds really weird to us.

How do you identify cities that few people are likely to have heard of? Once that pattern is established, it becomes natural to use it for every city.

[Candyman74]

How do you identify cities that few people are likely to have heard of?

We don't need to because we don't have many repeated names.

Once that pattern is established, it becomes natural to use it for every city.

Sure, I'm cognizant of the reasons why you do it, and understand the explanations given in this thread. Nevertheless, it still sounds weird to us. :)

[JRDelirious]

30 years ago your American counterpart would have announced "I'm from Houston" and never have thought for a moment about whether that made any sense to you. And 30 years ago it may not have. Though 40 years ago if he did any reading of newspapers or watching of TV news he may have recognized it as the place of Mission Control for all the Moon trips...

...and maybe thought that it must be in Florida :p

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Why do Americans always refer to cities by both their name and the state (or country) they are located in?

Is there more than one New York? more than one Los Angeles? more than one San Francisco? more than one Helsinki, Moscow, Vienna or Paris?I think the main reason is accidents (well, sort of) of history and geography.

New York without the NY tag could mean the whole state. True, in most contexts outside of the state, people mean the city and not the state, but the habit has stuck. Los Angeles is probably known by name to every human being above the age of 7 today, but in the early years of mass media, it was a small California burg, so the appendage "Calif." used to be necessary. Washington needs the appendage DC because there's a state on the other side of the country with the same name. Speaking of the Pacific Northwest, a map of the area can be a study in geographic confusion, with multiple Vancouvers (in two countries), and even a Mount Vernon.

[Gorsnak]

We don't need to because we don't have many repeated names.


You must have a puny little country. It's not so much the repeated names but that there are just so damn many of them, and if one gives the province/state after the name of the town you're conveying at least some information to people who've never heard of the place.

Gorsnak, posting from Meadow Lake

[Acsenray]

We don't need to because we don't have many repeated names.

So any city, town, or village name from anywhere in the world could be reported without specification of where it is? You would recognize every single place name, not only in England, but also in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, Spain, and every other place in the world?

I consider myself relatively well informed, but even I admit to sometimes needing more information.

But surely even the most well-informed Englishman doesn't expect to know every single place name in England? That would be impressive; I can't make that claim for the state I grew up in.

If nothing else, how would you differentiate between what we Americans would refer to as "Hyderabad, India" and "Hyderabad, Pakistan"?

[Kyla]

He didn't realize that there was a state called Washington as well, and the national capital is usually placed in listes of states under District of Columbia to avoid confusion. I wondered if he really could've gotten all the way to the West Coast.

A friend of mine who grew up in the DC area said that she had foreign tourists ask her how far it was to Seattle. Apparently they assumed that it must be a short jaunt. I'm not sure if this was a one-time occurrence or if it happened regularly, but I'm sure that I've seen people on the SDMB admit to being unaware that there are two Washingtons in the US and that they are thousands of miles apart from each other.

Honestly, it's not something that's a big deal and I wouldn't necessarily expect someone to know that if they live in another country, but if you're actually visiting DC and think "hey, I'll visit Seattle, too, that's in Washington also!" wouldn't you sit down and google it to see how far away it is, so you can plan accordingly?

[cochrane]

The SiL comes from Indiana PA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana,_PA)

I know Indiana. Hometown of actor Jimmy Stewart.

[Mr Downtown]

Some Americans have learned the hard way not to take anything for granted. As a result, we get the movie establishing shot with the helicopter flying in over Montmartre, Sacre Coeur, the Louvre, and the Tuileries, with the Eiffel Tower in the background—and the supertitle reads Paris, France.

[Siam Sam]

There is, however, a University of the District of Columbia (http://www.udc.edu/), locally referred to as UDC.

I see. But the wife's cousins were definitely thinking of the U of Washington in Seattle, which they must have thought was an area or suburb of the capital.

[Nava]

So any city, town, or village name from anywhere in the world could be reported without specification of where it is? You would recognize every single place name, not only in England, but also in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, Spain, and every other place in the world?

No, but we don't specify the province/county/whatever-intermediate-level-of-government except in very specific cases (see below). And if we're from a place that we don't expect people to have heard about, we just name the nearest "knowable" place. I don't usually tell people that my house is in "Aoiz", I tell them it's "in a village near Pamplona". Do I say "Pamplona, Navarra"? Nope. And if I was specifying which of the Pamplonas do I mean, I'd specify the country, not the province: there are no other Pamplonas (no other Aoiz, for that matter) in Spain.

Some village names do repeat, but they often have an appendix. Villanueva de la Serena is not the same as Villanueva, but there are several Villanuevas so if you're speaking about one you do specify.

[Candyman74]

So any city, town, or village name from anywhere in the world could be reported without specification of where it is? You would recognize every single place name, not only in England, but also in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, Spain, and every other place in the world?

No, we might describe it's location if necessary. "Near Manchester", "just outside London" or what-have-you.



If nothing else, how would you differentiate between what we Americans would refer to as "Hyderabad, India" and "Hyderabad, Pakistan"?

Well, we wouldn't be likely to have heard of either. So if someone was refering to the former, I guess he might say "Hyderabad, a town in India".

It's just a different way of doing the same thing. People from different places phrase things differently, and it sounds odd to those not from that place.

If I was talking about an American town, the same thing would apply. I'd either just say "Houston" if it was the Houston that everyone would assume it was. If it were another Houston, I'd probably say "Houston, but not the one you're thinking of" or something, and clarify if asked. If I were talking about a town nobody had heard of, I'm not sure what I'd say as it's never come up, but I think I'd say "Smallville, you probably haven't heard of it but it's somewhere down South in America" and further clarify if asked.

You've basically developed a "shorthand" version of that.

[SanVito]

Yeah, sorry saying it's common isn't correct.

Actually, here it's called the City.

Say that to an Englishman, and he'll think you mean The City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London)

I don't mind Americans adding the state to the city name at all, in fact I find it helpful. What I find unhelpful is the tagging of the abbreviated State name (OH, NV, whatever). Most of those mean nothing to me whatsoever. About the only ones I would recognise would be DC and CA.

[SanVito]

No, we might describe it's location if necessary. "Near Manchester", "just outside London" or what-have-you.

Well, you might. Or you might say 'King's Lynn, Norfolk'. (or is it Suffolk? Bad example). I don't think it's fair to say we 'never' say the county after the town.

Those automatic address forms online get on my nerves as they won't accept an omission in the 'county' box. So I frequently end up putting London, London. Yes yes, I know it's Greater London, but the drop down lists don't often give that option.

[Acsenray]

Say that to an Englishman, and he'll think you mean The City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London)

You wouldn't have to get very far from New York City for this usage to become strange. There aren't many people in Philadelphia, Boston, or Buffalo referring to New York as "the City."

What I find unhelpful is the tagging of the abbreviated State name (OH, NV, whatever). Most of those mean nothing to me whatsoever. About the only ones I would recognise would be DC and CA.

I really wish we'd just get rid of those abbreviations.

Those automatic address forms online get on my nerves as they won't accept an omission in the 'county' box. So I frequently end up putting London, London. Yes yes, I know it's Greater London, but the drop down lists don't often give that option.

I wonder why the postal addresses weren't left as Middlesex, Berkshire, etc. Isn't it annoying to have your address change every time local government boundaries are adjusted?

[billfish678]

Some Americans have learned the hard way not to take anything for granted. As a result, we get the movie establishing shot with the helicopter flying in over Montmartre, Sacre Coeur, the Louvre, and the Tuileries, with the Eiffel Tower in the background—and the supertitle reads Paris, France.

Well, the helicopter could just be flying down the Vegas strip. Though the giant pyramid and sphynx should be a dead giveaway :)

[SanVito]

I wonder why the postal addresses weren't left as Middlesex, Berkshire, etc. Isn't it annoying to have your address change every time local government boundaries are adjusted?

It was all part of some 'big government' boundary redrawing back in the 60s/70s, I suspect to better carve up the population/local government by density rather than land mass. I do think it's a shame that many areas lost their historic roots. I'm originally from a place called Sutton Coldfield, which is quite posh and was in historic Warwickshire (Shakespeare's county! Ra ra!). When the boundaries were redrawn, Sutton became a suburb of industrial Birmingham under the generic county name 'West Midlands'. Forty years later and I still know people who write 'Sutton Coldfield, Warwickshire'. Mainly because they're stuck up, mind.

[dtilque]

I don't mind Americans adding the state to the city name at all, in fact I find it helpful. What I find unhelpful is the tagging of the abbreviated State name (OH, NV, whatever). Most of those mean nothing to me whatsoever. About the only ones I would recognise would be DC and CA.

I would hope you can recognize NY, at the very least.

I use them a lot, but they can be problematic. In fact, earlier in this very thread we had confusion between one of them and the usual abbrev for Los Angeles. And there've been occasions when I have been unsure whether a given CA meant California or Canada.

[Polycarp]

I would hope you can recognize NY, at the very least.

I use them a lot, but they can be problematic. In fact, earlier in this very thread we had confusion between one of them and the usual abbrev for Los Angeles. And there've been occasions when I have been unsure whether a given CA meant California or Canada.

"He's a M.P. from Ontario, CA" -- Is he enforcing the U.S. U.C.M.J., or debating whether to pass the Canadian one?

It's a pleasant drive, down rural highways, of a little over an hour from Copenhagen to the Mexico city limits. You travel southwest, of course. Going southeast would get you to Poland in a scant two hours, and Russia is only a few miles distant. And from Russia it's only another few miles north to Ohio. Or you can turn off and go through Rome to Verona, or backtrack to Florence.

From Mexico, on the other hand, it's a nice short run through Phoenix to Liverpool. (But to get from Liverpool to Manchester you need to go through Geneva.)

This is all in upstate New York, of course.

[APB]

I wonder why the postal addresses weren't left as Middlesex, Berkshire, etc. Isn't it annoying to have your address change every time local government boundaries are adjusted?

It was all part of some 'big government' boundary redrawing back in the 60s/70s, I suspect to better carve up the population/local government by density rather than land mass. I do think it's a shame that many areas lost their historic roots. I'm originally from a place called Sutton Coldfield, which is quite posh and was in historic Warwickshire (Shakespeare's county! Ra ra!). When the boundaries were redrawn, Sutton became a suburb of industrial Birmingham under the generic county name 'West Midlands'. Forty years later and I still know people who write 'Sutton Coldfield, Warwickshire'. Mainly because they're stuck up, mind.

But it's much more complicated than that, as the postal addresses used by the Royal Mail occasionally ignore both the current boundaries and the pre-1974 ones. (See this Wikipedia discussion page for a bitter argument about one notorious example of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hampton_Court_Palace/Archive_1#Location_of_the_Palace).) It all depends on where your mail gets delivered from. The Royal Mail's usual argument is that they ignore the county anyway, just so long as the address on the item includes the postcode (zipcode).

[BobArrgh]

not_alice, you asked if people knew which state Kansas City was in.

Whenever I tell people I live near Kansas City, I am just establishing that I live somewhere in the middle of the USA. However, I will then be asked, "Kansas City, Missouri or Kansas City, Kansas?" The thing is, there really isn't that much of a distinction, geographically. The cities are right next door to each other.

[seosamh]

This might be a slightly away from the OP, but I understand that people from the USA are in the habit of saying street names without the appropriate suffix.

Back in the 80s my brother worked in the (now long-gone) British Rail Travel Centre in Regent Street and whenever an American rolled up to his counter and demanded "Ah wanna go to Ahksferd, godammit!" he had to determine whether he meant the lovely university town about an hour away by train or Oxford Street, where all the shops are, which was 3 minutes around the corner.

A similar but less fatal confusion arose between Liverpool (home of a certain popular 60s beat combo, 3 hours away by train) and Liverpool Street (on the eastern edge of the City of London).

[Colophon]

It's becoming more common to just write the town and postcode, but it's not standard form.
Actually, it is standard form, or at least it should be. The simple answer is that UK postal addresses do not include a county at all. The post town (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_town) removes the need for any county to be used, although you can still add the county (of the post town, not the actual address) if you like.

My smallish town became a post town 15 years ago or so. Before that, the post town was a larger town which is in a neighbouring county, so if you included a county, it wouldn't be the county I actually lived in.

The old address was, say:
123 Colophon Street, Coltown, BIGTOWN (, Beeshire) AB12 3CD.
Now it's just:
123 Colophon Street, COLTOWN (, Ceeshire) AB34 5CD.

The counties in brackets are not part of the postal address.

[flodnak]

Point made. But consider this ...

Americans have long been considered insular and clueless about all things outside their borders. What you're seeing is the rough beginnings of us learning to think a bit from a non-American point of view.

30 years ago your American counterpart would have announced "I'm from Houston" and never have thought for a moment about whether that made any sense to you. And 30 years ago it may not have.

Now we're bending over backwards a bit: "Springfield, Illinois. It's the state capital and near the center of the country, just below one of the Great Lakes."

Soon enough (20 years?) we'll get the tone right.Or maybe not, because the tone is likely to be different from person to person. I come from a smallish city in Pennsylvania that most American Dopers will have heard of, but that doesn't mean it's widely known in the rest of the world. So when Norwegians ask me where I come from, I could answer: Lancaster, Pennsylvania a smallish city in Pennsylvania near Philadelphia Pennsylvania, a state in the Northeast south of New York City the Northeast, and yes, it snows there ;)None are really inaccurate, so which one is appropriate to use? It depends on the person, their past experiences, and their level of interest. So of course I don't always get it right. I'm not psychic.

One thing is clear, "Lancaster" alone is a useless description, even after establishing that we're talking about the US.

[Sunspace]

This might be a slightly away from the OP, but I understand that people from the USA are in the habit of saying street names without the appropriate suffix.I'd be surprised by this, because there are a lot of places in the States where some streets are distinguished only by their suffix (or 'street type' as it's sometimes called). Consider all the roads in Atlanta that are named 'Peachtree' for example.

[kunilou]

This might be a slightly away from the OP, but I understand that people from the USA are in the habit of saying street names without the appropriate suffix.

That depends. The street I live on is the only one with that name in the entire metropolitan area, so a suffix is superflous. There's only one on the map, one in the post office database, one on the tax rolls, etc.

By contrast, my sister lived on 82nd Terrace, and instructed me to refer to it that way, lest it be confused with 82nd Street or 82nd Place.

[HeyHomie]

There's also the matter that I may be from a city that you've never heard of. If I told you I'm from East Cupcake, that means nothing to you. But if I told you I'm from East Cupcake, Indiana, you would at least know where Indiana is.

[TXCowboy]

..........

but New York is "the City".

There ain't no other.

Now see, if you said "the City" to me, I would think of Los Angeles not New York...

Joe Friday: "This is the City. Los Angeles, California. I work here... I'm a cop."

Ok ok, maybe I watched too much Dragnet as a kid :D

[fjs1fs]

It doesn't bother me at all, I was just wondering why people feel the need to point it out. Paris is probably not the best example.
New York needs no further explanation, nor does Oklahoma city or Houston.

New York DOES need further explanation. One could be from upstate NY and say "I'm from NY." If I say I am from NY, NY, I am making it clear that I am from New York CITY.

[Baron Skinley Von Clipper]

New York DOES need further explanation. One could be from upstate NY and say "I'm from NY." If I say I am from NY, NY, I am making it clear that I am from New York CITY.

So I say "Hi fjs1fs, where are you from?" to which you reply; "I'm from New York, New York".

Now to my English ears that just sounds weird, like you're trying to do some sort of Frank Sinatra impersonation.

It would sound pretty normal if you said "I'm from New York City". Or "I'm from upstate New York".

[panache45]

And then there are people who don't know there's a country called Australia and another country called Austria. They show up in Vienna, and want to know how to get to the outback. I bought a t-shirt in Vienna, showing a yellow diamond with the silhouette of a kangaroo, and the words "No kangaroos in Austria."

Yes, people can be that ignorant.

[Floater]

There is ... an Odessa in ... Russia.
The last time I saw the name on a map it was in Ukraine.
BTW, do you know what state Kansas City is in? No peeking!
Missouri, what's the problem? ;)

[PigBoy]

So I say "Hi fjs1fs, where are you from?" to which you reply; "I'm from New York, New York".

Now to my English ears that just sounds weird, like you're trying to do some sort of Frank Sinatra impersonation.

It would sound pretty normal if you said "I'm from New York City". Or "I'm from upstate New York".Same to my American ears. People in this thread keep pointing out that "New York, New York" is a way to distinguish the city from the rest of the state. But who says that? I've never heard anybody say it in earnest; it's almost always been "New York City."

[Polycarp]

Use of "the City" seems to be dependent on the location of the speaker. People living within about 35 miles of a given metropolis will use "the City" as shorthand for it. For example, where I live now, "I'm going into the City tomorrow morning" would mean the speaker is headed into Raleigh; people in DeWitt or Cicero NY would mean Syracuse; those in Cheetowaga or Lancaster (also NY) would mean Buffalo. Beyond that bound in the Northeastern U.S.. New York City would be the meaning, as the pre-eminent metropolis of the region. In Home Counties England, it would reference the financial center located within the historic City of London, as differentiated from Westminster and the boroughs that with it comprise Greater London.

On the broader question, the U.S. and Canada tend to use state/province names as clarifiers far more than anyone else (setting Australia to one side, as I'm not familiar with usage there) simply because eponymy is far more common in North America. The only two place names I can think of in the U.K. where there might be confusion are Newcastle and Kingston, and if any likelihood of confusion is apt to result, the river name is appended (e.g. Newcastle-upon-Tyne) for clarification. But there is only one Lancaster, only one Rochester, only one Belfast, only one Birmingham, only one Manchester, only one Portsmouth. But there are Kingstons in Ontario, New York, and Jamaica Rochesters in New York and Minnesota, Vancouvers in Washington and B.C., Portlands in Maine and Oregon, Springfields in Massachusetts and Illinois, Salems in Massachusetts and Oregon, Burlingtons in Vermont, New Jersey, and North Carolina, Newarks in New Jersey, Delaware, and Ohio ... and without major strain I can think of occasions when I might make a post making reference to the majority of them. (The Eastman School of Music and the Mayo Clinic are located in Rochester, for example -- two different Rochesters.)

[Ispolkom]

Near Indiana, Pennsylvania, is California, home of California University, which is part of the Penn State system.

I've never lived near New York, but in the Bay area, San Francisco arrogated the title "The City," a usage often seen in the San Francisco Chronicle.

[Siam Sam]

And then there are people who don't know there's a country called Australia and another country called Austria. They show up in Vienna, and want to know how to get to the outback. I bought a t-shirt in Vienna, showing a yellow diamond with the silhouette of a kangaroo, and the words "No kangaroos in Austria."

Yes, people can be that ignorant.

I knew an Australian over here who said he was complimented on his excellent English by some Thai university student. Said the guy really thought it odd how good his English was. He could only assume the kid thought he was Austrian.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

This might be a slightly away from the OP, but I understand that people from the USA are in the habit of saying street names without the appropriate suffix..It varies a lot. I haven't been to NYC, but from its portrayals in countless novels and films, it's pretty clear to me that identifying your street as just West 53rd or East 60th is standard practice. Everyone knows you mean midtown. The Post Office asks us to use all the street name suffixes as appropriate, except for "St.", when addressing mail. I don't think they particularly mind if we do write 'St.' in the address, but generally speaking it's the 'default' and not needed.

In L.A. we tend to name all the suffixes when referring to streets in conversation. Since there are a few "terraces", "places", and even a few "courts", "walks" and "steps", it's usually necessary.

With regard to San Francisco I read once that the City itself is known for hardly using suffixes at all. Maps seem to bear this out--it's just Haight, Masonic, Fell, Grant, Gough, and so on. OTOH Columbus is an Avenue, isn't it?

[Eyebrows 0f Doom]

So I say "Hi fjs1fs, where are you from?" to which you reply; "I'm from New York, New York".

Now to my English ears that just sounds weird, like you're trying to do some sort of Frank Sinatra impersonation.

It would sound pretty normal if you said "I'm from New York City". Or "I'm from upstate New York".Same to my American ears. People in this thread keep pointing out that "New York, New York" is a way to distinguish the city from the rest of the state. But who says that? I've never heard anybody say it in earnest; it's almost always been "New York City."
Yeah, no one from New York City actually says "I'm from New York, New York." That's bizarre. That's only how it's written out when sending mail.

It varies a lot. I haven't been to NYC, but from its portrayals in countless novels and films, it's pretty clear to me that identifying your street as just West 53rd or East 60th is standard practice. Everyone knows you mean midtown.
Well that's cause East or West automatically mean streets. (Except for West Broadway, I suppose, which is a totally different avenue than Broadway.) Streets run east-west, avenues run north-south and only go up to 12th Ave.


(Btw, did the board setting just change to be able to do nesting quotes? I couldn't do that before.)

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Same to my American ears. People in this thread keep pointing out that "New York, New York" is a way to distinguish the city from the rest of the state. But who says that? I've never heard anybody say it in earnest; it's almost always been "New York City."Context is everything. If we're talking about the differences between living in New York or Los Angeles, everyone knows we mean the cities, or at least the respective metro areas. If the discussion is dealing with things that Manhattan is famous for, like Times Square and the Metropolitan Museum, "New York" clearly means the City. OTOH if you put me in front of a globe or map and desire me to point out "New York", I'm going to have to ask you which New York you mean.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

I was just looking at Amtrak's website. For the Northeast Corridor services that stop in New York they have omitted the "NY" qualification in their timetables.

By contrast, for the Pacific Surfliner, Los Angeles still bears the "CA" appendage--as does every other city on the route, although they are ALL in California! :confused:

[hibernicus]

We don't need to because we don't have many repeated names.

So any city, town, or village name from anywhere in the world could be reported without specification of where it is? You would recognize every single place name, not only in England, but also in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, Spain, and every other place in the world?

Since you mention Ireland (albeit in passing), the usage in Ireland is very similar to that in the US. The town or village will be followed by the name of the county; e.g. "Newcastle, Co. Dublin", "Holywood, Co. Wicklow", "Bangor, Co. Down". Exceptions would be cities such as Cork, Dublin or Belfast, towns that are in the county of the same name (you would never say "Wicklow, Co. Wicklow"; instead you would say "Wicklow town") or where you have a reasonable expectation that the listener knows where the place is.

I think the interesting question here is not why Americans say "Paris, France", but why non-Americans find it annoying.

[Floater]

I think the interesting question here is not why Americans say "Paris, France", but why non-Americans find it annoying.
The reason we find it annoying is because The Paris is the capital of France and there's no need to emphasise that. Other Parises are but namesakes.

[Acsenray]

Ah, so then it's an ego thing.

[Candyman74]

I think the interesting question here is not why Americans say "Paris, France", but why non-Americans find it annoying.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I said "it sounds weird to me", not "it annoys me". It doesn't annoy me in the slightest; the phraseology is merely odd to my ears.

Ah, so then it's an ego thing.

Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but I can assure you that I have no ego invested in Paris, or indeed in France at all. However, "Paris, France" still sounds odd to me.

It's an observation, not a criticism.

[Floater]

I'm all with Candyman74. I have absolutely no interest in France or Paris (except it's a very nice town) and it sounds very strange when someone feels it necessary to point out which country it is in.

[septimus]

I heard an American on his first trip to Europe call home to boast "I'm in Paris, France." I think it was an Americanism, either dragging the name out (the way one might say "I just shook hands with George Walker Bush" for emphasis) or to emphasize distance or exoticness, that is playfully pretending the "France" needs to be added even though you know it doesn't.

Now see, if you said "the City" to me, I would think of Los Angeles not New York...

Joe Friday: "This is the City. Los Angeles, California. I work here... I'm a cop."

Ok ok, maybe I watched too much Dragnet as a kid :D

:D :D

BTW, in Northern California, "The City" was always San Francisco, even though San Jose now exceeds in population. IIRC, I've heard many Los Angelenos even refer to San Francisco as "The City"! Any truth to that?

[BigT]

I would hope you can recognize NY, at the very least.

I use them a lot, but they can be problematic. In fact, earlier in this very thread we had confusion between one of them and the usual abbrev for Los Angeles. And there've been occasions when I have been unsure whether a given CA meant California or Canada.

I used to think .ca internet addresses were in California.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

BTW, in Northern California, "The City" was always San Francisco, even though San Jose now exceeds in population. IIRC, I've heard many Los Angelenos even refer to San Francisco as "The City"! Any truth to that?Yes, among those of us who've visited there a lot, or lived there in the past, and then only when San Francisco and vicinity is the topic of conversation. For instance, it would make sense in a conversation about the comparative advantages of different places to live around the Bay. But outside of such contexts, no, it isn't done here.

[qazwart]

Why do Americans always refer to cities by both their name and the state (or country) they are located in?

Is there more than one New York? more than one Los Angeles? more than one San Francisco? more than one Helsinki, Moscow, Vienna or Paris?

Yes, there is:

Newark, New Jersey is the famous one, but there's also a Newark in Delaware, California, Ohio, Texas, and possibly other states. Springfield is probably the most common name. Someone told me that it was in over 20 states. Its one of the reasons the Simpsons (cartoon) is in Springfield.

In the United States, it is the states that regulate their localities. The states decidie upon city government structure, charters, and naming. Most states only allow one city to have a specific name, but New Jersey actually allows several cities to have the same name. Most of the time it's like Peters Buro vs. Peters Township, but Edison, New Jersey was once called Raritan Township before it changed its name back in 1954 (the other contestant for city name was "Nixon"). Yet, there's another Raritan Township about 30 miles away, and a Raritan Boro less than 10 miles away.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I say "Los Angeles." Think fast, where's that?
Nicaragua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_%C3%81ngeles,_Nicaragua). What did I win?

[Siam Sam]

I would hope you can recognize NY, at the very least.

I use them a lot, but they can be problematic. In fact, earlier in this very thread we had confusion between one of them and the usual abbrev for Los Angeles. And there've been occasions when I have been unsure whether a given CA meant California or Canada.

I used to think .ca internet addresses were in California.

That's because Canada's not a real country anyway. :p

[Siam Sam]

I say "Los Angeles." Think fast, where's that?
Nicaragua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_%C3%81ngeles,_Nicaragua). What did I win?

The Thai name for Bangkok, "Krung Thep," means "City of Angels" and is often likened to Los Angeles, so you could say Thailand.

[Baron Skinley Von Clipper]

I say "Los Angeles." Think fast, where's that?
Nicaragua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_%C3%81ngeles,_Nicaragua). What did I win?

Think fast doesn't mean mull it over for 12 days while you try to come up will a smart-arse answer.
Therefore you win nothing.;)

[EdwardLost]

BTW, in Northern California, "The City" was always San Francisco, even though San Jose now exceeds in population. IIRC, I've heard many Los Angelenos even refer to San Francisco as "The City"! Any truth to that?

I can walk to San Jose in 15 minutes, but when I say "The City" I mean San Francisco. Despite being the 10th largest municipality in the country, San Jose is still just an overgrown suburb - while San Francisco is a real City.

[EdwardLost]

In the US, "city, state" is the full name of the town in the sense that "Edward Smith" is my full name. Some cities are like Madonna, Cher, Pele, or Fabio: they can generally be referred to by first name only. I, however, am only just "Edward" to my friends, family, and co-workers.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I say "Los Angeles." Think fast, where's that?
Nicaragua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_%C3%81ngeles,_Nicaragua). What did I win?

The Thai name for Bangkok, "Krung Thep," means "City of Angels" and is often likened to Los Angeles, so you could say Thailand.
I thought the Thai name for Bangkok was something ridiculously long...?
I say "Los Angeles." Think fast, where's that?
Nicaragua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_%C3%81ngeles,_Nicaragua). What did I win?

Think fast doesn't mean mull it over for 12 days while you try to come up will a smart-arse answer.
Therefore you win nothing.;)
Bah. Didn't notice the date of your post. It was the first time I'd seen this thread!

[Siam Sam]

I thought the Thai name for Bangkok was something ridiculously long...?

Yes, listed in Guinness World Records, I believe:

Krung Thep Maha Nakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayutthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udom Ratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Phiman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanu Kamprasit

which means:

"The city of angels, the great city, the eternal jewel city, the impregnable city of God Indra, the grand capital of the world endowed with nine precious gems, the happy city, abounding in an enormous Royal Palace that resembles the heavenly abode where reigns the reincarnated god, a city given by Indra and built by Vishnukam."

They just call it Krung Thep -- City of Angels -- for short. "Bangkok" comes from bang kok, or "Place of olive trees." It may have been the name of an old fishing settlement in the area prior to the capital being moved here after the last sacking of the Siamese capital of Ayutthaya by the Burmese. Only foreigners call it Bangkok, but the Thais all know the name.

[Acsenray]

In the US, "city, state" is the full name of the town in the sense that "Edward Smith" is my full name. Some cities are like Madonna, Cher, Pele, or Fabio: they can generally be referred to by first name only. I, however, am only just "Edward" to my friends, family, and co-workers.

I was going to say something similar. The "full name" can be used for emphasis too.

"I'm calling you from London, England, dude! I just saw Queen Elizabeth the Second, baby." Yeah if you had said only "London" and "the queen" it souls have been unambiguous, but sometimes you feel like saying the whole thing.

"I'm dating a fashion model ftom Paris, France!" Just emphasize that it's the good Paris you're talking about and not just dome run-of-the-mill Paris.

[Polycarp]

I thought the Thai name for Bangkok was something ridiculously long...?

Yes, listed in Guinness World Records, I believe:

Krung Thep Maha Nakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayutthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udom Ratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Phiman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanu Kamprasit

which means:

"The city of angels, the great city, the eternal jewel city, the impregnable city of God Indra, the grand capital of the world endowed with nine precious gems, the happy city, abounding in an enormous Royal Palace that resembles the heavenly abode where reigns the reincarnated god, a city given by Indra and built by Vishnukam."

They just call it Krung Thep -- City of Angels -- for short. "Bangkok" comes from bang kok, or "Place of olive trees." It may have been the name of an old fishing settlement in the area prior to the capital being moved here after the last sacking of the Siamese capital of Ayutthaya by the Burmese. Only foreigners call it Bangkok, but the Thais all know the name.

Since Krung Thep, the shorter indigenous name, means "city of angels", it may be appropriate to point out that the full name of the other City of Angels is El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula -- an interesting cross-cultural and cross-religion shortening of two place names to terms with identical meanings.

[Maggie the Ocelot]

I heard an American on his first trip to Europe call home to boast "I'm in Paris, France." I think it was an Americanism, either dragging the name out (the way one might say "I just shook hands with George Walker Bush" for emphasis) or to emphasize distance or exoticness, that is playfully pretending the "France" needs to be added even though you know it doesn't.

Now see, if you said "the City" to me, I would think of Los Angeles not New York...

Joe Friday: "This is the City. Los Angeles, California. I work here... I'm a cop."

Ok ok, maybe I watched too much Dragnet as a kid :D

:D :D

BTW, in Northern California, "The City" was always San Francisco, even though San Jose now exceeds in population. IIRC, I've heard many Los Angelenos even refer to San Francisco as "The City"! Any truth to that?

Oh hell no. Y'all have swelled heads as it is, we're not gonna add to it. Heck, I refer to it as "Frisco" whenever possible just to watch Northerners turn purple.

[bullrun]

New York City was originally called "New York....Dude (shake of a head)..New York..." because everyone who mentioned the city felt so sorry for the inhabitants because they lived in such a liberal quagmire. Over time..."dude" was left out...it seemed to Californish.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Okay, seriously, do you have to take a partisan dump on every thread? It would be a little less annoying if your posts weren't quite so moronic.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

New York City was originally called "New York....Dude (shake of a head)..New York..." because everyone who mentioned the city felt so sorry for the inhabitants because they lived in such a liberal quagmire. Over time..."dude" was left out...it seemed to Californish.
This is GQ, bullrun. Save that kind of remark for the political debates or the Pit.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

As to "the City," it does vary. When I lived near San Jose, California, saying "I'm going into town" meant you were going to San Jose, but saying "I'm going to the City" meant you were going to San Francisco -- even though San Jose is bigger.

Why did I say "San Jose, California" in the previous sentence? Because there's another San Jose with an airport, and when you fly both to California and Mexico semi-regularly, it pays to be precise.

Where I live now, there are certain cities we always qualify. I live pretty close to the Montana/Wyoming border. Both states have Sheridans, so you always say which one you're talking about. There's a Joliet down the road from us, but it's pronounced differently than the big Joliet with the prison (Illinois' is Joe-lee-et, and Montana's is Jaw-lee-et). That means we don't have to qualify it.

[Baron Skinley Von Clipper]

Update!

I just heard an Australian on TV saying he comes from Western Australia, Australia.

Umm.... I think know where Western Australia is, isn't it a state in the west of Australia?

[Siam Sam]

Update!

I just heard an Australian on TV saying he comes from Western Australia, Australia.

Umm.... I think know where Western Australia is, isn't it a state in the west of Australia?

Yes, with Perth its capital and largest city.

[Knorf]

As I said before, to Americans, "Los Angeles, California," in full has the feel of a proper name. We don't necessarily think we're explaining something to someone, just giving its full name. Sometimes we say "Obama" by itself, but sometimes we'll use his full name, Barack Obama, just because it feels appropriate to. Or "U.K." or "U.S." as opposed to "United Kingdom" or "United States." If someone says the full name, do you think "What, do you think I'm stupid?"

That feeling carries over to "London, England," or "Bogota, Colombia," We don't necessarily think the listener is stupid. We just sometimes feel it appropriate to use what sounds to our ears as a place's full name.

To American ears, it's never wrong to specify.

I'm also American, and I don't agree with any of the above. At all. I also don't know any Americans who exhibit behavior described above, and have never known any.

[Baron Skinley Von Clipper]

Update!

I just heard an Australian on TV saying he comes from Western Australia, Australia.

Umm.... I think know where Western Australia is, isn't it a state in the west of Australia?

Yes, with Perth its capital and largest city.

But did the guy really need to point out that western Australia is in Australia?

I would have thought that anyone who is intelligent enough to breathe would know that.

[Acsenray]

I'm also American, and I don't agree with any of the above. At all. I also don't know any Americans who exhibit behavior described above, and have never known any.

None of the Americans you know ever use the "city, state," format? Really? In my experience every American does it sometimes.

[Knorf]

None of the Americans you know ever use the "city, state," format? Really? In my experience every American does it sometimes.
Only when it's required for clarification. Such as, "Vancouver, WA," or is a not necessarily well-known city where not everyone knows where it is, such as "Mandeville, LA."

Even the people I know from Texas don't do that when referring to big cities in their state.