Is this junk mail revenge thing legit?

[Shig]

A friend (a rather gullible friend that questions nothing) emailed this to me. I'm thinking that it has to somehow just not be this simple. Am I wrong?

http://officeofstrategicinfluence.com/bulkmailer/

[bleach]

Well you've come to the right place to ask. This was answered in these hallowed halls in 1984.

Can I mail a brick back to a junk-mail firm using the business reply envelope? (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/566/can-i-mail-a-brick-back-to-a-junk-mail-firm-using-the-business-reply-envelope)

[Yarster]

Technically speaking, it's probably mail fraud to knowingly mail back a brick or other 'obviously not the intended item' type thing to the sender of junk mail, but they would certainly not catch you if you stuck it in an anonymous mailbox. That said, why bother?

I'm sure the bulk junk mailers have a staff of minimum wage people who process returns and probably know to just throw out anything bigger than the envelope that is supposed to come back, knowing that it is dog shit, a brick, engine block, phone book, etc. The logic of the website seems to be that you are helping the postal service since there have been layoffs due to e-mail. Maybe so, but if the junk mailer takes enough of a hit, they'll have layoffs too, so it's the same difference. Huge companies, like Capitol One, probably use third parties to handle this mailing for them anyway, so you probably aren't hurting them directly any more than the people who do the whole "don't buy gas on a Wednesday to show the evil oil companies" people do. And if by the grace of God you manage to put the junk mailer out of business, Capitol One will just hire a new junk mailer to send them out next time that is still in business.

But if you want to waste your time and effort to mail garbage back to junk mailers because you have nothing better to do, have a good time.

[Yarster]

Whoops. Looks like I missed the edit window and Bleach beat me to the punch. This does bring up the point, however, of whether I can heat my house during the winter months by getting the booklet described in Cecil's article that will get me incrementally more junk mail which I can use to fuel a continuous burner of all the crap mail.

[Chronos]

What good would it do for the junk mail staffers to discard the brick? The damage has already been done by that point: They've had to pay the USPS for shipping a brick.

[Shig]

But if you want to waste your time and effort to mail garbage back to junk mailers because you have nothing better to do, have a good time.

Nope Yarster, I sure don't. Just lookin' for a little ammo to take with me when I tell her she's goofy. Usually I can handle it myself (like last year when she told me about the strawberry metamphetamine. Since she is a post office employee though, I didn't want to go in unarmed. Thanks guys. 8)

[Shig]

What good would it do for the junk mail staffers to discard the brick? The damage has already been done by that point: They've had to pay the USPS for shipping a brick.

I was wondering about that myself... Yarster??

[Markxxx]

Because you don't know it's a brick till you open it. It could be a pile of dog crap.

So in addition to paying the postage there would be a "Yech" factor :)

[Shig]

That 1984 article brings up another question: Where can I find this "domestic mail manual"? USPS site doesnt seem to be of much help. http://pe.usps.gov/text/DMM300/DMM300_landing.htm has nothing in the 900's and the article says the rule is 917. something.

[engineer_comp_geek]

This does bring up the point, however, of whether I can heat my house during the winter months by getting the booklet described in Cecil's article

Many years ago, I read about a man who did exactly this. He got himself a post office box and told all of his friends send their mail to it instead of his home address. Then he used his home address to sign up for every bit of junk mail he could find, and he used junk mail to heat his house all winter. He mentioned some issues about the residue and emissions from the ink and paper, but he did prove that it was possible.

The junk mailers have cut back quite a bit these days, thanks to internet advertising, the rising cost of sending mail, etc. so I don't know if it is still possible to do this.

[janeslogin]

There might be better, easier ways. After all most places bricks and boxes cost money.

I once experimented with returning the junk mail as "obscene, discontinue". Back then, back there it worked. BTW, it really obscene how much junk mail the cable company sent me so I wasn't even being disingenuous.

[bleach]

That 1984 article brings up another question: Where can I find this "domestic mail manual"? USPS site doesnt seem to be of much help. http://pe.usps.gov/text/DMM300/DMM300_landing.htm has nothing in the 900's and the article says the rule is 917. something.

You're right Shig. It looks like 917.243(b) is gone. I did find this though.

Domestic Mail Manual, Section 9.0: Business Reply Mail (BRM) (http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/507.htm#wp1044635).

9.4.6 Intentions of the Permit Holder

BRM may not be used for any purpose other than that intended by the permit holder, even when postage is affixed. In cases where a BRM card or letter is used improperly as a label, the USPS treats the item as waste.

(bolding mine)

Sounds like that's the updated language in the Domestic Mail Manual and would be good information for your friend.

[billfish678]

I have this vague memory that when you mail something inappropriate back to the junkmailer using their return envelope that the Post Office eats that cost instead of the junkmailer. So, if thats the case, you really arent sticking it to the people you really want to. Though, if the Post Office got shafted often enough they might change their contracts and or junk mail policies.

[In Winnipeg]

I worked for Canada Post, and dealt with Business Reply mail. There's no way this would have flown, because it is an understood that BR mail is only for envelopes, and that the envelopes involved can't be attached to any other items.

The fact that the BR franking and Permit Number are on an envelope shows that only envelopes are contemplated to be covered by the Permit.

Maybe the USPS handles it differently, but I doubt it.



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[billfish678]

I worked for Canada Post, and dealt with Business Reply mail. There's no way this would have flown, because it is an understood that BR mail is only for envelopes, and that the envelopes involved can't be attached to any other items.

-

Okay.

But what happens if you just mail back the crap they mailed to you in their own envelope?

[dracoi]

Okay.

But what happens if you just mail back the crap they mailed to you in their own envelope?

They take you off the list. OK, maybe not all of them every time, but I make a habit of sending back any postage-paid envelope with a quickly scribbled "Please stop sending me mail" and they do seem to take note.

[In Winnipeg]

But what happens if you just mail back the crap they mailed to you in their own envelope?

Ah, now see, this is the way I originally heard it used. Usually the BR envelope is only part of the mailing, and is usually inside another envelope, with a pamphlet, or sales literature, or whatever as well as some sort of order form.

If you take all of that stuff and put it into the BR envelope, then they will have to pay to get it, and will open it up to find not an order, but their own crap back, which would serve them right.

Point made.

[DrDeth]

What have they done to you that you want "revenge"? Just put a recycling bin by the mailbox and use it, what's the problem?

In any case, none of these ideas gets "revenge upon the company"- at best you're making some poor minimum wage schmucks job a little bit nastier. In other words- you are being the asshole.

[billfish678]

But what happens if you just mail back the crap they mailed to you in their own envelope?

Ah, now see, this is the way I originally heard it used. Usually the BR envelope is only part of the mailing, and is usually inside another envelope, with a pamphlet, or sales literature, or whatever as well as some sort of order form.

.

Yeah, thats the way I heard it way back when too. I wonder if they have to pay for that or not?

[billfish678]

Another thing to consider it that the Postal System may make good money on junk mail, so all that junk mail may be subsidizing your non junkmail use to some extent.

[drachillix]

Paging johnathanchance to gq

[Shig]

What have they done to you that you want "revenge"?

I have no desire to get revenge. I really don't give a shit about who mails what. I only used the word "revenge" because I know that's what the people who get excited over sending bricks have in mind.

[Sigmagirl]

I once experimented with returning the junk mail as "obscene, discontinue". Back then, back there it worked. BTW, it really obscene how much junk mail the cable company sent me so I wasn't even being disingenuous.

I was marking a bunch of stuff "Refused -- Do not send this material" and throwing it back in mailboxes. It was general junk mail. Then one time I had to go to the post office for something and handed some of this to the clerk. He told me that almost all of it was sent at a rate that would result in it being discarded, not returned to sender, so I had been wasting my time.

[racer72]

My BIL is an assistant postmaster. He says that business reply envelopes are coded for a maximum postage rate, generally it's one ounce first class mail. Anything over one ounce is rejected. If there is a return address it is sent back. If not it is tossed. Boxes with BR envelopes attached are routed through the parcel area and would be rejected. Some BR items are rated for parcel post and would pass even if there is a brick in a box. He said his post office rejected a couple hundred BR items every day. Most ends up in the recycling bin.

[Max Torque]

But what happens if you just mail back the crap they mailed to you in their own envelope?

Ah, now see, this is the way I originally heard it used. Usually the BR envelope is only part of the mailing, and is usually inside another envelope, with a pamphlet, or sales literature, or whatever as well as some sort of order form.

If you take all of that stuff and put it into the BR envelope, then they will have to pay to get it, and will open it up to find not an order, but their own crap back, which would serve them right.

Point made.

I did that once. Apparently, they took it as a "yes, I would like to subscribe to your crappy magazine," because I started getting it shortly thereafter. So, you may want to redact any identifying information if you do this.

In his book Prank the Monkey, John Hargrave, the founder of comedy site ZUG (http://www.zug.com/), talks about striking back at junk mail senders by mailing back heavy stuff. Apparently, anything you can fit in the original envelope is fair game, even if you have to strap-tape the envelope back together. He started with a steel chain, moved up to a folded piece of lead roof flashing, and finally mailed a bar of solid lead that weighed almost 6 pounds. In each case, he did something so that he'd know the envelope was received, like send it back with a completed credit card application or a check with a small donation to his college's scholarship fund. The letters were always received, and apparently paid for by the recipient.

[DrDeth]

In his book Prank the Monkey, John Hargrave, the founder of comedy site ZUG (http://www.zug.com/), talks about striking back at junk mail senders by mailing back heavy stuff. Apparently, anything you can fit in the original envelope is fair game, even if you have to strap-tape the envelope back together. He started with a steel chain, moved up to a folded piece of lead roof flashing, and finally mailed a bar of solid lead that weighed almost 6 pounds. In each case, he did something so that he'd know the envelope was received, like send it back with a completed credit card application or a check with a small donation to his college's scholarship fund. The letters were always received, and apparently paid for by the recipient.

And everyone esle, even those who work at the USPS (I know a couple of Postal Inspectors myself) have said just the opposite. Perhaps, a book about successful pranks by the prankster himself is not an unbiased source?

[DesertDog]

But what happens if you just mail back the crap they mailed to you in their own envelope?

Ah, now see, this is the way I originally heard it used. Usually the BR envelope is only part of the mailing, and is usually inside another envelope, with a pamphlet, or sales literature, or whatever as well as some sort of order form.

If you take all of that stuff and put it into the BR envelope, then they will have to pay to get it, and will open it up to find not an order, but their own crap back, which would serve them right.

Point made.The only time I've done a "punishment mailing." was a couple decades ago before people knew what to make of libertarians. I got on the same day a letter "signed" by Ted Kennedy saying I could now tell the NRA to go to hell, and a letter "signed" by Charleton Heston saying I should join the NRA to stop the "gun grabbers." I sent back the BRM envelopes with the others' literature in it.

[Mr. Slant]

In his book Prank the Monkey, John Hargrave, the founder of comedy site ZUG (http://www.zug.com/), talks about striking back at junk mail senders by mailing back heavy stuff. Apparently, anything you can fit in the original envelope is fair game, even if you have to strap-tape the envelope back together. He started with a steel chain, moved up to a folded piece of lead roof flashing, and finally mailed a bar of solid lead that weighed almost 6 pounds. In each case, he did something so that he'd know the envelope was received, like send it back with a completed credit card application or a check with a small donation to his college's scholarship fund. The letters were always received, and apparently paid for by the recipient.

And everyone esle, even those who work at the USPS (I know a couple of Postal Inspectors myself) have said just the opposite. Perhaps, a book about successful pranks by the prankster himself is not an unbiased source?

If it fits in the original envelope, the USPS staff may have failed to weigh the item.
Most BRM envelopes don't need weighed.
Speaking as an online retailer that sends a substantial amount of product by mail,
I've accidentally discovered that a substantial percentage of items where the printed weight on the parcel is wrong do in fact make it through the system unchecked.
I've never willfully cheated the USPS, but out of the tens of thousands of items I've sent over the years, I did make a few weight mistakes and most of them did get through.
USPS employees are human like anyone else.

[DrDeth]

In his book Prank the Monkey, John Hargrave, the founder of comedy site ZUG (http://www.zug.com/), talks about striking back at junk mail senders by mailing back heavy stuff. Apparently, anything you can fit in the original envelope is fair game, even if you have to strap-tape the envelope back together. He started with a steel chain, moved up to a folded piece of lead roof flashing, and finally mailed a bar of solid lead that weighed almost 6 pounds. In each case, he did something so that he'd know the envelope was received, like send it back with a completed credit card application or a check with a small donation to his college's scholarship fund. The letters were always received, and apparently paid for by the recipient.

And everyone esle, even those who work at the USPS (I know a couple of Postal Inspectors myself) have said just the opposite. Perhaps, a book about successful pranks by the prankster himself is not an unbiased source?

If it fits in the original envelope, the USPS staff may have failed to weigh the item.
Most BRM envelopes don't need weighed.
Speaking as an online retailer that sends a substantial amount of product by mail,
I've accidentally discovered that a substantial percentage of items where the printed weight on the parcel is wrong do in fact make it through the system unchecked.
I've never willfully cheated the USPS, but out of the tens of thousands of items I've sent over the years, I did make a few weight mistakes and most of them did get through.
USPS employees are human like anyone else.

Sure, that happens, but in that case the mass mailer has not been penalized, since he was only billed for normal return mail. So, the "prank" had a net result of 0.