Re the Russian spies living ordinary US lives. What "intelligence" were they delivering to Russia?

[astro]

In reading the news reports these people seemed to be living fairly ordinary, fairly mundane middle class and upper middle class lives in their embedded roles as US citizens.What mission critical intelligence information were they delivering to Russia in this capacity?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Largely nothing of worth, from what little I've read.

[BrotherCadfael]

Sounds like they were scamming their employers.

[Gil-Martin]

I've not really followed those news stories, but perhaps they were just waiting for an opportunity to work their way into positions where they had access to secrets and/or influence? Perhaps they were the old sleeper agents of the spy novels I liked when I was a kid? Perhaps they were just around to provide support of one sort or another to other intelligence officers in the field? Perhaps they were just bad at their jobs? Perhaps what they were really up to and in fact accomplished has been suppressed by one government or another? Some combination of the above? Like I said, I haven't really followed those stories so I'm just throwing out off-the-top-of-the-head ideas.

[Voluble]

Whatever information they delivered it likely did less damage than the Wikileaks fiasco for instance. The Russians never had much luck with their spies that they sent from the motherland. Most of them were incompetent or became so enamored with being free that they did very little real work. But they have had extraordinary success with having their ideological soul mates in the West passing them information or trying to smooth the way for them.

If you look back, FDR's administration was rife with Soviet agents and even recently we have the example of Ted Kennedy conspiring with them (http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/ted-kennedy-soviet-union-ronald-reagan-opinions-columnists-peter-robinson.html) against the interests of his own country. He offered to brief them on nuclear issues and help with their propaganda efforts in return for their help in the upcoming elections against Reagan. They got a lot of help with their original nuclear weapons program from people like Klaus Fuchs and the Rosenbergs. If you go back and read through the Soviet archives, the Venona decrypts etc... there are multiple examples of that sort of treason and self-dealing. In short the Russians either used front groups in the US to recruit people of like mind or those sorts of people sought them out on their own.

The type of things you read about in spy novels where the beautiful secret agent from the homeland is sent out into the dangerous world to seduce the enemy into giving away their secrets is much less common... and much less effective. I am not sure the Russians ever stole a secret as vital as those that were given to them willingly.

[Shagnasty]

Sounds like they were scamming their employers.

This. I think they just had the chance to exploit their own country's bureaucracy . It is the perfect job to leave the home country and collect a check to live in the U.S. without being accountable to much of anyone. They weren't even charged with espionage the last I heard because they didn't do much of worth. They were just charged with being unregistered foreign agents.

[Zsofia]

Wasn't there a cute headline somewhere, "Russian spies read Newsweek, call Kremlin to tell them what it says"?

[Wendell Wagner]

In this article, Malcolm Gladwell argues that much of what you get from spies is worthless:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2010/05/10/100510crat_atlarge_gladwell?currentPage=all

[Dewey Finn]

According to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/europe/29spy.html):

An F.B.I. investigation that began at least seven years ago culminated with the arrest on Sunday [June 26, 2010] of 10 people in Yonkers, Boston and northern Virginia. The documents detailed what the authorities called the “Illegals Program,” an ambitious, long-term effort by the S.V.R., the successor to the Soviet K.G.B., to plant Russian spies in the United States to gather information and recruit more agents.

The alleged agents were directed to gather information on nuclear weapons, American policy toward Iran, C.I.A. leadership, Congressional politics and many other topics, prosecutors say. The Russian spies made contact with a former high-ranking American national security official and a nuclear weapons researcher, among others. But the charges did not include espionage, and it was unclear what secrets the suspected spy ring — which included five couples — actually managed to collect.

[Indistinguishable]

In this article, Malcolm Gladwell argues that much of what you get from spies is worthless:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2010/05/10/100510crat_atlarge_gladwell?currentPage=all
I don't doubt it, but I can't help but think of how many people suspect much of the information you get from Malcolm Gladwell is worthless as well. :)

[Jim's Son]

I don't know about these particular ones but I remember about 40 years ago the "Reader's Digest" had a series of articles on the KGB from a book, probably by John Barron. One of them involved the KGB sending over an agent who was born in the United States and his father moved to Russia in the 1930s because he believed in Stalin. They figured he had some knowledge of English and they could fit in the details of his life (worked in a plant with lots of turnover, etc). Somehow the FBI found out about him real quick and turned him into a double agent. One of the assignments the KGB gave him was to find out about what Navy ships had for equipment, etc. So he got a job near a shipyard (restaurant worker?), got talking to the shipyard workers during lunch and apparently impressed the FBI agents with what he found out, despite a lack of technical knowledge. They watered it down and put some falsities into it before he passed it on to the Kremlin in the drops they had.

There may be some comic aspects to this (read Newsweek and send it to Moscow) but to treat it completely like that is as pig headed as regarding "Hogan's Heroes" as telling the whole story of what Nazis were like.

[qazwart]

In reading the news reports these people seemed to be living fairly ordinary, fairly mundane middle class and upper middle class lives in their embedded roles as US citizens.What mission critical intelligence information were they delivering to Russia in this capacity?

Moose and Squirrel have the Kirward Derby?

Sorry. Someone had to say it.

[qazwart]

I am no fan of Ted Kennedy, but I cannot let this pass.

If you look back, FDR's administration was rife with Soviet agents and even recently we have the example of Ted Kennedy conspiring with them (http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/ted-kennedy-soviet-union-ronald-reagan-opinions-columnists-peter-robinson.html) against the interests of his own country.

The charge of Ted Kennedy working for the Soviets was made by Peter Robinson of the Hoover Institute. The article does not mention that Peter Robinson was a speech writer for Ronald Reagan and might have motived to smear someone he thinks is a political enemy to someone he holds so dear.

So far, no one else has ever made such a dubious claim except based upon Peter Robinson's own statements. Nor, does it make any sense. Andropov was considered a lame duck the very day he was appointed General Secretary of the Communist Party. He certainly wasn't in any position to help in some secret idiotic plot to deny the presidency to Reagan. Besides, the Kennedys, despite their liberal leanings, were fervent anti-communists.

I have my doubts about the truthfulness of Peter Robinson coming from a series of video he produced for Human Events where it is claimed that President Obama has increased the federal deficit more in two years than Bush did in eight. That simply is not true by any context.

When you make a claim that a senior member of a political party is a traitor to their nation (which seem to me what Robinson is hinting), you simply need more evidence than a pundit from an ideologically driven think tank making bold claims.

[Wendell Wagner]

Sure, Indistinguishable, Malcolm Gladwell is wrong about a lot of things too, but that goes along with my point. You have to take everybody's claims with a grain of salt. A major espionage or counter-espionage effort may appear to produce useful information, but you may only think so because it fits your existing prejudices about what's happening. It's always within the range of possibility that an espionage operation isn't producing as good intelligence as the people running it think it is.

[Indistinguishable]

Yeah; I wasn't trying to make any serious point. It was just my immediate gut reaction to your post which I found funny.

[ralph124c]

A major problem for Russian espionage is the fact that they cannot trust their own media. Hence, they canot accept that the Western press might actually print the truth-it must be false. Which is why they indulge in the "Boris and Natasha" stuff-on occasion they get some good stuff-but most of what they want is available for free (from the US government).
Take the design of the 1st generation USN nuclea subs (the "Nautilus" class)-anybody willing to spend $1.50 for a Revell plastic model could get 90% of the design details-but the Russians could not belive this-the info was obviously a plant-so they resorted to espionage to get the stuff.

[Chronos]

I have my doubts about the truthfulness of Peter Robinson coming from a series of video he produced for Human Events where it is claimed that President Obama has increased the federal deficit more in two years than Bush did in eight. That simply is not true by any context.Oh, I can come up with a context in which it's true. You just have to pick the right eight years. Obama in 2009-2010 increased the deficit much more than Bush did in 1993-2000.

[hajario]

From what I have read, they passed on a bunch of bullshit that was either useless or could easily be found on the internet. Their handlers back in Mother Russia, who wanted to look important and keep their jobs, made the information look much more valuable than it was to their superiors.

Now it could be that they really did pass on important information and it was suppressed by the US Government from us. It could be that they didn't get far enough into their long term mission to worm their way into a place where they could be valuable.

I think that the whole thing is hilarious. These "spies" thought that they had everyone fooled. Then they got arrested. Three days later they're in Russia for good with only the clothes on their back. They can never get back to the US again for as long as they're alive.

[HorseloverFat]

>If you look back, FDR's administration was rife with Soviet agents and even recently we have the example of Ted Kennedy conspiring with them against the interests of his own country.

Your source is terrible and right-wing conspiracy theories aren't at all helping the discussion.

[Zsofia]

But, hey, they had a little singalong with Putin when they got back. Seriously.

[BobArrgh]

I would venture to say that if the spies were merely scamming their employers and passing on information which was essentially worthless, then those involved will never be heard from again. If their handlers back in Russia were editing the information to make it that much more valuable for the higher-ups, then it would be interesting to see if the handlers disappear from view, as well.

[ralph124c]

I don't know how big the Russians are on military espionage these days..but what about commercial stuff? The Russians want to improve their industrial performance-what better way to do this than steal advanced technology?
The Chinese do this all the time.

[GHO57]

I don't know how big the Russians are on military espionage these days..but what about commercial stuff? The Russians want to improve their industrial performance-what better way to do this than steal advanced technology?
The Chinese do this all the time.

Hi, the cold war called, they want their paranoia back.

...what advanced technology? The secret of building inefficient V8 engines? And why would Russian companies need some bunch of sad amateur spies working for the government to help them in industrial espionage... when they could hire actual pros if they were so inclined? Just saying... You're thinking of Soviet spies in the 70's, when computers were a mystery to the soviets... Russia today is pretty much comparable to France.

[Quartz]

The Chinese do this all the time.

Hi, the cold war called, they want their paranoia back.

Back when I was doing interesting work, espionage by the Chinese was a huge issue.

[hajario]

Hi, the cold war called, they want their paranoia back.

Back when I was doing interesting work, espionage by the Chinese was a huge issue.

It very much is now for the work that I do.

[An Arky]

Espionage in general (as in planting someone to spy) is ridiculously ineffective. It's like spooks need to act like they're doing something that seems heavy to justify their existence. For the most part they're just self-defined "patriots" that think they're right and everyone else is naive. Of course, the amount of background checking and security clearance BS ensures that nobody who even has the least bit of a clue about how the bad guys operate would ever be able to get a job there and enlighten the right-wing douchebag idiots in charge. Remember when we fired a bunch of arabic linguists for being gay? The military/spooks/cops, etc. can't find their asses with two hands and a flashlight, other than to commit dumb atrocities in the name of "patriotism". Fuck them and the people who think they're groovy.

[Cheshire Human]

Espionage in general (as in planting someone to spy) is ridiculously ineffective. It's like spooks need to act like they're doing something that seems heavy to justify their existence. For the most part they're just self-defined "patriots" that think they're right and everyone else is naive. Of course, the amount of background checking and security clearance BS ensures that nobody who even has the least bit of a clue about how the bad guys operate would ever be able to get a job there and enlighten the right-wing douchebag idiots in charge. Remember when we fired a bunch of arabic linguists for being gay? The military/spooks/cops, etc. can't find their asses with two hands and a flashlight, other than to commit dumb atrocities in the name of "patriotism". Fuck them and the people who think they're groovy.

Catching spies is what my sister-in-law does, and she's damn good at it. I've seen the (unclassified) commendation she got. BTW, she's an avowed lefty. No right-wing douchebaggery there, at all.

[Declan]

In reading the news reports these people seemed to be living fairly ordinary, fairly mundane middle class and upper middle class lives in their embedded roles as US citizens.What mission critical intelligence information were they delivering to Russia in this capacity?

They may not have been delivering any information to Russia, however they may have been originally tasked to provide safe houses and logistics help for any of the GRU/KGB/Spetsnaz teams that might have occasion to drop in.

Declan

[Jervoise]

I don't know how big the Russians are on military espionage these days..but what about commercial stuff? The Russians want to improve their industrial performance-what better way to do this than steal advanced technology?
The Chinese do this all the time.

Hi, the cold war called, they want their paranoia back.

...what advanced technology? The secret of building inefficient V8 engines? And why would Russian companies need some bunch of sad amateur spies working for the government to help them in industrial espionage... when they could hire actual pros if they were so inclined? Just saying... You're thinking of Soviet spies in the 70's, when computers were a mystery to the soviets... Russia today is pretty much comparable to France.
Paranoia? Germany accuses China of industrial espionage (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/22/germany-china-industrial-espionage).

R&D spend in advanced western Economies - including France - far outstrips that of Russia. The level of new technology developed is not comparable. (In fact, France's R&D expenditure is nearly twice that of Russia - source (http://www.rdmag.com/Featured-Articles/2009/12/Policy-And-Industry-Global-Funding-Report-Emerging-Economies-Drive-Global-R-D-Growth/) (look for GERD on R&D)). It simply not true that advanced technology is not a desirable target for espionage.

[AK84]

You do realise that niether government is likely to reveal what they got from the spies, it could be damaging; highly damaging.

[FRDE]

But, hey, they had a little singalong with Putin when they got back. Seriously.

That is quite interesting, I've been wondering about the message behind it since I first heard about it. Putin is a teetotaller, so we are not talking about some sort of Stalinesque bull session. My guess is that the 'event' was created as a signal that they are Ok - but who is the signal aimed at ? Presumably rank and file FSB as normal Russians don't matter, and most foreigners would regard it as cute but baffling.

At a guess this was a signal to people at the level of taxi driver or very minor official to be nice to them - rather not give them a hard time.

As for 'spies', you've got the obvious, for example the Cultural Attache who acts as a pleasant two way flow, the Military Attache who acts as a beacon, the businessman with an interesting line in slightly exotic equipment (I was once offered Israeli Army Encrypting Modems)

The KGB penetration during Roosevelt's time was understandable, people genuinely reckoned that the USSR was a lot better than Germany and Japan, ditching friends and changing ones mind is not all that easy.

[PrettyVacant]

It feels like an out-dated concept in terms of gathering data because it was largely made redundant after the fact by the Internet and the Internet's rapid expansion.

However, if it was about influencing decision-making at the policy level, it's still valid as one the (discovered) Israeli spy rings demonstrate.

At the heart of the investigation are two people who work at The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), a powerful pro-Israel lobby in Washington. The FBI investigation, headed up by Dave Szady, has involved wiretaps, undercover surveillance and photography that CBS News was told document the passing of classified information from the mole, to the men at AIPAC, and on to the Israelis.

CBS sources say that last year the suspected spy, described as a trusted analyst at the Pentagon, turned over a presidential directive on U.S. policy toward Iran while it was, "in the draft phase when U.S. policy-makers were still debating the policy." This put the Israelis, according to one source, "inside the decision-making loop" so they could "try to influence the outcome." [CBS News]

[An Arky]

Espionage in general (as in planting someone to spy) is ridiculously ineffective. It's like spooks need to act like they're doing something that seems heavy to justify their existence. For the most part they're just self-defined "patriots" that think they're right and everyone else is naive. Of course, the amount of background checking and security clearance BS ensures that nobody who even has the least bit of a clue about how the bad guys operate would ever be able to get a job there and enlighten the right-wing douchebag idiots in charge. Remember when we fired a bunch of arabic linguists for being gay? The military/spooks/cops, etc. can't find their asses with two hands and a flashlight, other than to commit dumb atrocities in the name of "patriotism". Fuck them and the people who think they're groovy.

Catching spies is what my sister-in-law does, and she's damn good at it. I've seen the (unclassified) commendation she got. BTW, she's an avowed lefty. No right-wing douchebaggery there, at all.

...catching spies, while I'm sure is technically spying, is looking at it from a different angle. I was overgeneralizing just a tad, though, I admit.

[ralph124c]

I don't know how big the Russians are on military espionage these days..but what about commercial stuff? The Russians want to improve their industrial performance-what better way to do this than steal advanced technology?
The Chinese do this all the time.

Hi, the cold war called, they want their paranoia back.

...what advanced technology? The secret of building inefficient V8 engines? And why would Russian companies need some bunch of sad amateur spies working for the government to help them in industrial espionage... when they could hire actual pros if they were so inclined? Just saying... You're thinking of Soviet spies in the 70's, when computers were a mystery to the soviets... Russia today is pretty much comparable to France.

Well, in the case of the Cambridge, MA couple, they were living a couple of miles away from MIT-which happens to have some of the largets software development groups in the world. A few years back, a local reporter went into MIT and found how easy it was to get access to just about everything-he was able to get into unlocked labs, and even was making copies of documents (the security officers didn't even challenge him). A photocopied ID card was enough to get anywhere.
The Russians are not stupid-I am quite sure that these folks were earning their keep.

[Quartz]

It feels like an out-dated concept in terms of gathering data because it was largely made redundant after the fact by the Internet and the Internet's rapid expansion.

The really interesting stuff isn't hooked up to the Internet, so old-fashioned techniques are needed.

[rocking chair]

they were reporting back on the us food markets. they were paricularly obsessed with wegman and trader joe.

they will try to bring this type of shopping to russia. "siberia sofya" will turn out not to be as popular as trader joe. the frozen north style just doesn't go over as well.