Mass-transit referendum in Hillsborough County (Tampa), Florida

[BrainGlutton]

This is a local vote on a local project, but on a topic of national interest. This November, Hillsborough County voters will -- at last, after several thwarted attempts in earlier years to get something like this on the ballot -- get a chance to vote on a one-cent local sales tax to fund several transportation-infrastructure projects, including a light rail system. Also road upgrades and improved bus service, but the light rail is the sexiest part, as these things go, and is getting the most attention. Amtrak already stops here, of course. But at present, the only local rail transit in Hillsborough County is the TECO Line Streetcar, (http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org/about/maps/index.htm) which runs from the downtown Convention Center to Ybor City -- a nice thing for tourists, but it gets no cars off the road.

This comes not long after the Florida High Speed Rail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High_Speed_Rail) project was finally (after its own numerous setbacks) approved and funded. The first leg, to open in 2015, will run from Tampa to Orlando -- they're planning a big intermodal station in downtown Tampa. Which makes the idea of local light rail timely.

The main organization in favor of the transit tax is Moving Hillsborough Forward. (http://www.movinghillsboroughforward.org/) Impressive short video clip on the welcome page. Map of the proposed light-rail system here. (http://www.movinghillsboroughforward.org/the-plan/rail.aspx)

The main organization against is No Tax for Tracks. (http://notaxfortracks.com/) The website includes purported debunkings of "Ten Transit Myths." (http://notaxfortracks.com/Facts/10_Transit_Myth.aspx) What I find most telling of the underlying world-view, however, is this blurb from the welcome page:

The No Tax For Tracks campaign aspires to preserve the American Dream by opposing the anti-suburban polices implied by so called “Smart Growth.” By opposing so called “Smart Growth” the No Tax For Tracks campaign endeavors to preserve the higher quality of life implied by affordable housing, as well promote the higher standard of living made possible when adequate roads reduce congestion and thus improve economic growth.

Ermm . . . guys . . . "suburbia" != "The American Dream." I can understand practical objections to rail transit, it costs too much, not enough people will ride it, etc., all debatable but all sound arguments. But objection on what appears to be ideological grounds, that I do not understand. Yet there seems to be a lot of opposition on ideological grounds -- see Randal O'Toole. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randal_O%27Toole) Apparently all Libertarians and libertarian-leaning conservatives seem to feel obliged to oppose rail transit and transit-oriented development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit-oriented_development) and New Urbanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_urbanism) in general, as somehow un-American -- as if it were all some kind of encroachment on Liberty, or as if by living in your own detached tract house with a back yard you are doing something to preserve America's Pioneer Spirit. Well, it isn't and you ain't. And it's not as if anyone were talking about bulldozing suburbia anyway. It will still be there after the light rail lines are built, won't it? But there's no good reason why we need any more of it than we have now. (Actually, I expect most suburbs will be abandoned in your lifetime -- but that will be because the cheap imported petroleum on which they depend will run out, not because of any anti-suburban government policy.)

Anyway: If you were a Hillsborough County voter (bonus points if you are one), would you vote for or against this, and why?

[BrainGlutton]

County government page on the referendum. (http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/transportref/)

The referendum has become an issue in a Republican County Commission primary (http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyloaf/2010/08/09/sharpe-vs-burgin-in-hillsborough-county-commission-gop-primary-a-preview-of-the-transit-tax-vote/) (the incumbent is for it, the challenger is agin it).

[Chronos]

So, let me get this straight: Good roads lead to thriving, all-American suburban communities, so we should invest in roads... Unless they're made out of steel instead of asphalt, in which case we should vehemently oppose them.

Rail is just one more way to connect the suburbs with the metropolis, and the only way that I know of that can be independent of fossil fuels. It'll help the suburbs, not hurt them.

[foolsguinea]

What Chronos said.

I would add that cars add inefficiency & use more energy not so much because of the energy of moving the car but because the space required to park it, which could otherwise be green space or commercial space. Rail lines don't require parking lots larger than the destination at every destination.

[Muffin]

Light rail is the saviour of suburbia, for it makes both detached-housing and commuting more affordable for more people.

[Chronos]

Light rail is the saviour of suburbia, for it makes both detached-housing and commuting more affordable for more people. Therein, I suspect, lies the problem. If suburbia becomes more affordable, then undesirable people will be able to move out to the suburbs.

[BrainGlutton]

Light rail is the saviour of suburbia, for it makes both detached-housing and commuting more affordable for more people. Therein, I suspect, lies the problem. If suburbia becomes more affordable, then undesirable people will be able to move out to the suburbs.

It's not just the suburbs. I went to Georgetown University and learned a bit of local history: When the Washington Metro was built, the residents of Georgetown (an upscale historic neighborhood with lots of 19th-Century row houses) opposed and prevented a stop being included anywhere near their neighborhood. (The nearest ones are Dupont Circle and Foggy Bottom-GWU.)

[Really Not All That Bright]

Personally, I think it's going to fail on simple ridership considerations. The number of people who commute between the bay area and Orlando is pretty miniscule.

Now, it's awesome for me, because I can start drinking at Buccaneer games and the UCF-USF derby, if that ever gets back on the schedule, but I can't think of many people who'll be using it on a regular basis.

[Alienhand]

I'm a Hillsborough resident (for anyone looking at a map, I live in Lutz and work in Town 'n' Country). I'm currently sitting squarely on the fence -- even have one testicle on each side. Tampa's transportation system, particularly mass transit, is pitiful and needs improvement but I'm unsure if this is the right plan.

The Tampa area needs a long term transportation plan with mass transit. I'm well aware of the benefits to everyone of mass transit even if someone doesn't use it directly. I haven't fully thought it out yet to give a real answer to why either way (I will before Nov). But as it stands, this plan seems a little too "If you build it, they will come" for me. I may end up voting for the tax increase anyways just because getting a plan started, whether implemented exactly as is or greatly altered, is better than nothing.




As for the Tampa-Orlando rail project, I fail to see where the ridership is going to come from.

[Robot Arm]

But at present, the only local rail transit in Hillsborough County is the TECO Line Streetcar, (http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org/about/maps/index.htm) which runs from the downtown Convention Center to Ybor City -- a nice thing for tourists, but it gets no cars off the road.There were transit proposals being floated and debated during the time I lived in Seattle. Rush hour traffic was terrible (probably still is). I still remember one town-hall sort of TV debate. They were taking comments from the audience, and one person said that all the various options were being pitched to the voters with the promise that they would unclog the freeways and everyone could drive to their offices in no time.

Which is ridiculous, of course. Somebody has to actually ride the thing. Judge it by how well it serves the people who use it. It should be better to be on the train laughing at the gridlocked cars than the other way around. If the designers and voters start thinking like that, then it might be worth doing.

[New Deal Democrat]

I like cities and alternatives to automobile transportation. Unfortunately, many cities have high crime rates. If you look at this website
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/tampa/crime/
you will see that Tampa, FL has a crime index of 2. That means that it is safer than 2% of cities.

It is possible to reduce urban crime. Since the 1970s New York has gone from being one of the most frightening cities in the United States to one of the safest big cities. Indeed, it has a crime index of 33. Nevertheless, until cities can find effective means to reduce the crime rate, most Americans will prefer living in suburbs, and they will try to keep urban residents out.

According to FBI, Uniform Crime Reports from 1980 to 2008 the crime rate in the United States declined from 5,950 per 100,000 to 3,6677.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Crime, and particularly urban crime, is not a hopeless problem, but it is a serious problem, and one should consider it when analyzing opposition to efforts to encourage more people to live in cities.

[BrainGlutton]

Personally, I think it's going to fail on simple ridership considerations. The number of people who commute between the bay area and Orlando is pretty miniscule.

The stretch of I-4 between Tampa and Orlando is always pretty busy, I can tell you, at practically all hours of the day. Somebody wants to get from here to there.

[BrainGlutton]

I'm a Hillsborough resident (for anyone looking at a map, I live in Lutz and work in Town 'n' Country). I'm currently sitting squarely on the fence -- even have one testicle on each side. Tampa's transportation system, particularly mass transit, is pitiful and needs improvement but I'm unsure if this is the right plan.

How would you change it?

[BrainGlutton]

BTW, this plan must be viewed in the context of the Tampa Bay Regional Transportation Authority's (http://www.tbarta.com/) long-range plans for the whole eight-county (Citrus, Hernando, Pasco, Pinellas, Hillsborough, Polk, Manatee, Sarasota) area. TBARTA's envisioned Long-Range Regional Network -- pdf map here (http://www.tbarta.com/sites/tbarta.com/files/vision-maps.pdf?#) -- includes a light-rail network across Hillsborough and Pinellas counties; light rail between Bradenton and Sarasota; and rush-hour commuter rail from Tampa all the way to Brooksville, Lakeland, and Bradenton; as well as express bus service and Bus Rapid Transit routes.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Personally, I think it's going to fail on simple ridership considerations. The number of people who commute between the bay area and Orlando is pretty miniscule.

The stretch of I-4 between Tampa and Orlando is always pretty busy, I can tell you, at practically all hours of the day. Somebody wants to get from here to there.
Yes, but that stretch of I-4 doesn't just connect Tampa and Orlando; it connects the east coast with the west. A Tampa-Orlando light rail system isn't going to do much for the people driving to and from Tampa from Jacksonville, Daytona, the Space Coast and so on - or for the people traveling to and from Orlando from Naples, Brooksville, etc.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I like cities and alternatives to automobile transportation. Unfortunately, many cities have high crime rates. If you look at this website
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/tampa/crime/
you will see that Tampa, FL has a crime index of 2. That means that it is safer than 2% of cities.
That site says Orlando is effectively the most dangerous city in the nation (it got a "1"). I call bullshit.

[BrainGlutton]

The stretch of I-4 between Tampa and Orlando is always pretty busy, I can tell you, at practically all hours of the day. Somebody wants to get from here to there.
Yes, but that stretch of I-4 doesn't just connect Tampa and Orlando; it connects the east coast with the west. A Tampa-Orlando light rail system isn't going to do much for the people driving to and from Tampa from Jacksonville, Daytona, the Space Coast and so on - or for the people traveling to and from Orlando from Naples, Brooksville, etc.

Well, Tampa-Orlando is only the first leg. As you'll see here, (http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/) the next step is to extend HSR to Miami, possibly by way of the Space Coast, possibly not -- two routes are being considered. Once that's done, I expect there will be pressure to extend it north to Jacksonville, and then west to Tallahassee and Pensacola. Then you have the first legs of an East Coast line and a Coast-to-Coast line in place.

Brooksville will eventually have a rail link to Tampa, (http://www.tbarta.com/sites/tbarta.com/files/vision-maps.pdf?#) connecting it to the HSR. I don't know if there are any plans for rail access to Naples. At present, no railroad goes there (http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/states/florida/florida-railway-map.html) -- any more; it has a historic railroad depot. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaboard_Coast_Line_Railroad_Depot)

[BrainGlutton]

Here, (http://www.ushsr.com/hsrnetwork.html) BTW, is the U.S. High Speed Rail Association's vision for a national HSR network.

[Robot Arm]

Here, (http://www.ushsr.com/hsrnetwork.html) BTW, is the U.S. High Speed Rail Association's vision for a national HSR network.There's a link from that site to a Time magazine article that illustrates my point.The goal is to create attractive alternatives to long drives and short flights, which would relieve road and air congestion; reduce carbon emissions, highway deaths and dependence on oil from foreign thugs or the blackened Gulf; create jobs; jump-start a new domestic manufacturing industry; and improve the competitiveness and convenience of the U.S. economy.Beneficial though they are, people need to stop focusing on the side effects. Nobody is going to ride a train in order to make their neighbors' lives better. We're selfish; we will ride a train if it makes our own lives better. First and foremost, it needs to serve the people who use it. The various boosters and proponents need to get people excited about taking the train, not what will happen when everybody else takes the train. If they lose sight of that, they'll wind up creating the biggest white elephant in history.

[Beware of Doug]

I would argue that getting any great number of people excited about taking the train will be the most impossible PR move of the century.

What do people want most in transport? Freedom. And freedom, for almost everyone, equals car. I would think it would take at least a generation without gasoline, or workable alternate fuels, to change thinking on that score.

As for the long-haul routes: no one much likes flying today, but as long as their time is valuable, they'll have to put up with it and they will. The airline lobbyists take every advantage of that. All the anti-rail people have to mention is time and the debate is already half over.

This is just one of those things that will benefit the nation as a whole much more than it will the great run of individuals, and they're going to be very easily manipulated to oppose it.

[Beware of Doug]

Ermm . . . guys . . . "suburbia" != "The American Dream."Your idealism is touching. The American Dream is whatever the biggest bloc of money says it is. We're too well organized an economy to allow people real choices.

I can understand practical objections to rail transit, it costs too much, not enough people will ride it, etc., all debatable but all sound arguments. But objection on what appears to be ideological grounds, that I do not understand. Yet there seems to be a lot of opposition on ideological grounds -- see Randal O'Toole. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randal_O%27Toole) Apparently all Libertarians and libertarian-leaning conservatives seem to feel obliged to oppose rail transit and transit-oriented development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit-oriented_development) and New Urbanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_urbanism) in general, as somehow un-American -- as if it were all some kind of encroachment on Liberty, or as if by living in your own detached tract house with a back yard you are doing something to preserve America's Pioneer Spirit. Well, it isn't and you ain't.Libertarians know that when people are suburbanized, they see themselves as consumers first and citizens second. That they regard as a healthy force against Big Government, which is what results when people bond in communities and start thinking about the common good and social (pshaw!) responsibility.

And it's not as if anyone were talking about bulldozing suburbia anyway. It will still be there after the light rail lines are built, won't it? But there's no good reason why we need any more of it than we have now.Yes, there is. Housing starts are a leading economic indicator and thus a good in themselves, because they raise the stock market regardless of whether the homes will ever sell. There's no talk of paying the piper or junky mortgage paper or collapsing investment banks. There's only the current fiscal quarter. That is as close as you'll come to the American Dream.

[cckerberos]

... and then west to Tallahassee and Pensacola.
Why? Would that achieve anything other than dragging the system down financially?

[BrainGlutton]

... and then west to Tallahassee and Pensacola.
Why? Would that achieve anything other than dragging the system down financially?

See post #18.

[BrainGlutton]

This is just one of those things that will benefit the nation as a whole much more than it will the great run of individuals, and they're going to be very easily manipulated to oppose it.

Manipulated by whom?

[smiling bandit]

Why? Would that achieve anything other than dragging the system down financially?

See post #18.

You know that's an utterly inadequate answer. HIgh-fives from HSR boosters is no support. You've been called on similar not-actually-useful-cites before.

[Really Not All That Bright]

... and then west to Tallahassee and Pensacola.
Why? Would that achieve anything other than dragging the system down financially?
Actually, extending it to Tallahassee means it will benefit state legislators. Assuming the system isn't going to be profitable, which it probably isn't, it can't hurt to have a few dozen fans in the state house.

[cckerberos]

Why? Would that achieve anything other than dragging the system down financially?

See post #18.
I was asking about that FL extension specifically, but fine.

I live in country with a broad HSR network and like HSR. I want the US to have HSR. I'm an easy sell... but that proposed national HSR network has to be one of the worst ideas I've ever heard put forth seriously. Seattle to Boise HSR? Denver to Kansas City HSR? I don't demand that HSR be profitable (although it can be), but it shouldn't be a money pit either.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Er... what's wrong with those routes? They're major cities, and I assume high speed rail can cover those distances at much lower cost than airlines.

[BrainGlutton]

See post #18.
I was asking about that FL extension specifically, but fine.

I live in country with a broad HSR network and like HSR. I want the US to have HSR. I'm an easy sell... but that proposed national HSR network has to be one of the worst ideas I've ever heard put forth seriously. Seattle to Boise HSR? Denver to Kansas City HSR? I don't demand that HSR be profitable (although it can be), but it shouldn't be a money pit either.

Well, that's just a system as "proposed" by an advocacy group.

Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_the_United_States#Strategic_plan) the vision in the strategic plan formulated by the Federal Railroad Administration in response to the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. You'll see that from Orlando to Jacksonville, and Jacksonville to Pensacola, is "Other Passenger Rail Routes," i.e., non-HSR. I just figure, eventually that will be upgraded to HSR. There are always a lot of drivers on I-10 along that route, and it's the way to Mobile and New Orleans.

[Chronos]

As for the long-haul routes: no one much likes flying today, but as long as their time is valuable, they'll have to put up with it and they will. The airline lobbyists take every advantage of that. All the anti-rail people have to mention is time and the debate is already half over.There are a lot of routes where high-speed rail would be quicker than flying. Sure, the train itself isn't as fast as a plane, but I've been on plenty of flights where we spent more time taxiing and waiting for a takeoff time than in the air. Plus, of course, rail stations will tend to be more conveniently located than airports. And in the "personal benefit" column, coach on any train I've been on has been more comfortable than coach on any plane I've been on.

Er... what's wrong with those routes? They're major cities...Boise is only a major city in that it's the biggest city in Idaho, a state not noted for being urban. But it'd only just barely make it onto a list of the top 100 cities in the country. Now, Seattle-Portland-San Francisco-Los Angeles, that'd make a lot more sense.

[BrainGlutton]

Boise is only a major city in that it's the biggest city in Idaho, a state not noted for being urban. But it'd only just barely make it onto a list of the top 100 cities in the country. Now, Seattle-Portland-San Francisco-Los Angeles, that'd make a lot more sense.

OK, but if there's going to be a HSR line from Salt Lake City to Seattle, no reason it shouldn't stop at Boise.

[cckerberos]

Er... what's wrong with those routes? They're major cities, and I assume high speed rail can cover those distances at much lower cost than airlines.
I chose them because they're very long routes with more or less nothing along the way. In the case of Denver-Kansas City, the route would be the longest HSR route in the world, the longest by far between stations. HSR is slower than flying but usually makes up for that fact because it's not that much slower when all the other time sinks involved in flying are taken into account. With a route as long as Denver-Kansas City that would no longer be true, which would almost certainly cut down on ridership and increase the fare. Also the maintenance for such a long route would be immense.

I just skimmed this proposal (http://www.america2050.org/pdf/Where-HSR-Works-Best.pdf) (PDF) which includes what I think are much more reasonable suggestions for HSR links in the US based on economic analysis. It proposes Boston-DC, Los Angeles-San Francisco, and Chicago-Minneapolis-Detroit-St. Louis as "phase 1" links for HSR.

[cckerberos]

OK, but if there's going to be a HSR line from Salt Lake City to Seattle, no reason it shouldn't stop at Boise.
I guess, but why would there be a Salt Lake City to Seattle HSR line? That's 700 miles! It'd be faster and cheaper to fly.

[BrainGlutton]

OK, but if there's going to be a HSR line from Salt Lake City to Seattle, no reason it shouldn't stop at Boise.
I guess, but why would there be a Salt Lake City to Seattle HSR line? That's 700 miles! It'd be faster and cheaper to fly.

Well, that's a very long-term, last-stage addition. Every plan puts first priority on the densest urban corridors. Point being, HSR to Boise is always an afterthought.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I guess that depends on whose definition of HSR we're talking about. At 225 mph, I'll take the train. At 125, not so much.

[appleciders]

Boise is only a major city in that it's the biggest city in Idaho, a state not noted for being urban. But it'd only just barely make it onto a list of the top 100 cities in the country. Now, Seattle-Portland-San Francisco-Los Angeles, that'd make a lot more sense.

OK, but if there's going to be a HSR line from Salt Lake City to Seattle, no reason it shouldn't stop at Boise.

Man, have you ever been on Amtrak?


It's not just that the train is slow- it's that the train stops for fifteen minutes in Minot, North Dakota, and every other tiny burg on the line. Any hypothetical Seattle-Salt Lake run can't stop everywhere, or else you'll lose the benefits of the high-speed rail. If two trains a day make the run from Seattle to Salt Lake, sure as shooting one of them will be an express, and they might both be. Seattle-Boise service might happen every other day, or twice a week; most long distance train routes will be non-stop, or nearly so.

[Chronos]

And if you wanted to connect Salt Lake City to the high-speed network, it looks to me like it'd make more sense to go along I-80 through Reno to San Francisco, rather than along I-84 to Seattle. Or maybe I-15 to Las Vegas, thence to Los Angeles.

[Captain Amazing]

And if you wanted to connect Salt Lake City to the high-speed network, it looks to me like it'd make more sense to go along I-80 through Reno to San Francisco, rather than along I-84 to Seattle. Or maybe I-15 to Las Vegas, thence to Los Angeles.

Looking at that map, though, it looks like the addition of the SLC-Boise-Seattle link is to make SLC a rail hub. Otherwise, somebody who wants to go east from Seattle-Vancouver will have to first go south to Sacramento and then east from there. In other words, the rail going to Boise isn't because anybody wants to go to Boise, it's because people want to go to Seattle.

[Mr. Excellent]

Therein, I suspect, lies the problem. If suburbia becomes more affordable, then undesirable people will be able to move out to the suburbs.

It's not just the suburbs. I went to Georgetown University and learned a bit of local history: When the Washington Metro was built, the residents of Georgetown (an upscale historic neighborhood with lots of 19th-Century row houses) opposed and prevented a stop being included anywhere near their neighborhood. (The nearest ones are Dupont Circle and Foggy Bottom-GWU.)

Nitpick: Rosslyn is closer than Foggy Bottom, I believe.

[Robot Arm]

I would argue that getting any great number of people excited about taking the train will be the most impossible PR move of the century."Excited" was a poor choice of words on my part, but I think my point still stands. If the people who develop something like this think their job is to cut carbon emissions and stimulate the manufacturing sector, they'll forget to build something that actually works.

Maybe there's no choice in how they sell it to the public, though. This is up for a vote, and they have to promote as many benefits as they can to as many people as they can. I'd still like to see some emphasis on actually using it; promise people something better than driving their cars.

What do people want most in transport? Freedom.I've been hearing that for years, and it strikes me as a platitude with no real meaning. I can understand "flexibility" as a motivation for driving (change, plans, stop when you want, stretch your legs), but that's a far cry from "freedom".

Besides which, how about freedom from pumping gas, paying for repairs and maintenance, getting stranded by a flat tire, and finding a place to park. Along with the flexibility, there are burdens involved with driving.

[BrainGlutton]

Getting back to this referendum: There's some concern (http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyloaf/2010/08/19/concern-about-lack-of-specifics-in-hillsborough-light-rail-measure-intensifies/) that Hillsborough Area Rapid Transit has not announced the specific routes/alignments for the first light-rail lines and does not plan to announce them before the election.

[BrainGlutton]

Besides which, how about freedom from pumping gas, paying for repairs and maintenance, getting stranded by a flat tire, and finding a place to park. Along with the flexibility, there are burdens involved with driving.

Not all of which are immediately visible. Air quality, for instance. And, of course, a lot of your tax dollars -- federal, state and local -- go for automobile-related expenses: Building, repairing and maintaining paved streets, roads, highways; putting up signs and signals; cops to patrol for traffic violations; special courts for traffic violations; EMTs and tow trucks to clean up after traffic accidents; examining and licensing every driver; everything government has to do to regulate, or sometimes bail out, the auto industry; and maintenance of the world's most expensive military establishment, the prime unstated mission of which is to make sure America's supply of cheap imported petroleum is never interrupted.

And yet so many think of motoring as an instance of the individual's independence from the state.

[Alienhand]

How would you change it?

To preface it a little, I don't have an issue with the new shiny sparkly train but with the rest of the plan and partly with the focus on the train.

The first and main issue I have with the proposed plan is that it's basically entirely focused on getting people to downtown. I realize that the experts and local experts in the various necessary fields have looked at the data and that's where they think the needs land. I also realize there is a need to move people downtown. But, if you work anywhere except downtown, taking the bus is not an option. Even if you do work downtown and you need to go somewhere after work, the bus is not an option. That needs to change if anyone except those who absolutely need to are going to use the system. So, for me, it breaks down into an issue of ridership and how many people would actually benefit from the money spent.

Very minor, personal, kinda ranty and not related to my support for the plan: The newer Northwest Transfer Center blows donkey cock. There are no seats in the shade. All the seats are either in the hot boxes or out in the open. It's isolated enough that you can't wander off somewhere to find relief from the heat. Netp@rk, UATC, Yukon and West Tampa transfer centers aren't much better. The proposed stations seem to be on the same plan as Yukon and NWTC. I'd never use the system 9 months a year just because of that.

[BrainGlutton]

County government page on the referendum. (http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/transportref/)

The referendum has become an issue in a Republican County Commission primary (http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyloaf/2010/08/09/sharpe-vs-burgin-in-hillsborough-county-commission-gop-primary-a-preview-of-the-transit-tax-vote/) (the incumbent is for it, the challenger is agin it).

Aaand pro-transit incumbent Mark Sharpe beats anti- challenger Josh Burgin, 55-45. (http://results.enr.clarityelections.com/FL/Hillsborough/20674/31992/en/summary.html)

[BrainGlutton]

How would you change it?

To preface it a little, I don't have an issue with the new shiny sparkly train but with the rest of the plan and partly with the focus on the train.

The first and main issue I have with the proposed plan is that it's basically entirely focused on getting people to downtown. I realize that the experts and local experts in the various necessary fields have looked at the data and that's where they think the needs land. I also realize there is a need to move people downtown. But, if you work anywhere except downtown, taking the bus is not an option. Even if you do work downtown and you need to go somewhere after work, the bus is not an option. That needs to change if anyone except those who absolutely need to are going to use the system. So, for me, it breaks down into an issue of ridership and how many people would actually benefit from the money spent.

Here's how I would do it: Elevated light-rail lines running down the medians of the county's most major highways -- Dale Mabry and Hillsborough to start with -- not so much as because those highways would take riders to high-value ultimate destinations (though the Hillsborough line would reach the airport, and the Dale Mabry line would reach Macdill AFB and the Raymond James Stadium), as to connect with a much finer, slower network of streetcar lines running along the next-most-important roads, which do touch nearly every important destination.

North-south streetcar lines:
Westhore-Interbay-Bayshore
Howard Avenue
Nebraska Avenue (reaches downtown)
50th-56th Street (reaches Temple Terrace USF area)

East-West streetcar lines:
Fletcher Avenue
Gunn Highway - Busch Boulevard - Bullard Parkway
Waters Avenue
MLK Boulevard (reaches the airport)
Columbus Drive (reaches the airport)
Kennedy Boulevard (reaches downtown and the airport)

And, eventually, a light-rail line along Gandy Boulevard, starting at Bayshore and leading to Pinellas County, using the abandoned span of the Gandy Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandy_Bridge) -- the "Friendship Trail Bridge" (now closed even to joggers and fishers) -- as a railbed.

[Chronos]

And, eventually, a light-rail line along Gandy Boulevard, starting at Bayshore and leading to Pinellas County, using the abandoned span of the Gandy Bridge -- the "Friendship Trail Bridge" (now closed even to joggers and fishers) -- as a railbed. If the bridge is currently considered too structurally unsound even for pedestrians, it'd be more trouble than it's worth to renovate it enough to handle trains. You might as well just tear it down and build a new one.

[BrainGlutton]

And, eventually, a light-rail line along Gandy Boulevard, starting at Bayshore and leading to Pinellas County, using the abandoned span of the Gandy Bridge -- the "Friendship Trail Bridge" (now closed even to joggers and fishers) -- as a railbed. If the bridge is currently considered too structurally unsound even for pedestrians, it'd be more trouble than it's worth to renovate it enough to handle trains. You might as well just tear it down and build a new one.

Cost estimates: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandy_Bridge#Friendship_Trail_Bridge)

In May 2009, the initial estimates were revised:[15]

* $10 Million to retrofit both ends of the bridge ONLY.
* $15 Million to retrofit the entire structure.
* $17 Million to demolish the bridge ONLY.
* $19 Million to demolish and rebuild the bridge.

<snip>

In April 2010, the fate of the bridge was sealed, as both Hillsborough and Pinellas County Commissions voted to demolish the entire structure. The commissions are still proposing ways to commence demolition and a timetable has not yet been set.[17]

I guess they voted to demolish because they see the thing only as a jogging trail. But retrofitting would be cheap at the price if it could be used as a railbed, and save it for joggers too. Just an idea.

[BrainGlutton]

Well, this is interesting . . . This evening I went to a TBARTA presentation on mass transit in the Tampa Bay Area. And at the end of the presenter's engaging talk, as an oh-by-the-way, he offered everyone a "No On 4" leaflet, saying that the proposed Amendment 4 "would be a killer for mass transit." Amendment 4 will be on the state ballot this November; it would require any change to a local comprehensive land-use plan to be approved by the community's voters. (See this thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=575776) I don't see the connection . . . except that he had been touting mass transit as a boost to local property development -- i.e., developers will locate their projects near a light-rail line or BRT (bus rapid transit) route if they have a choice. Thing is, though, he made it sound like Amendment 4 would mean requiring a public vote on every single building permit, which I'm pretty sure is not the case.

The leaflet says at the bottom: "NAIOP" -- the acronym is not explained -- "COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION - TAMPA BAY CHAPTER"; and below that, "Paid political advertisement. Paid for by the Tampa Bay Regional Coalition." Whatever that is; googling turns up nothing.

[E-Sabbath]

Google Sez:

NAIOP
Trade association for developers, owners and investors in industrial, office and related commercial real estate.

[BrainGlutton]

Google Sez:

NAIOP
Trade association for developers, owners and investors in industrial, office and related commercial real estate.

Yeah, I tried that too; but the site I found did not explain the acronym. One would expect an "R" in there somewhere, for "Realtors" or "Real Estate."

[waterj2]

Google Sez:

NAIOP
Trade association for developers, owners and investors in industrial, office and related commercial real estate.

Yeah, I tried that too; but the site I found did not explain the acronym. One would expect an "R" in there somewhere, for "Realtors" or "Real Estate."For some reason, the Massachusetts chapter (http://naiopma.org) uses the full name in their website, "The National Association of Industrial and Office Properties".

[JoelUpchurch]

Here, (http://www.ushsr.com/hsrnetwork.html) BTW, is the U.S. High Speed Rail Association's vision for a national HSR network.

According to this map, from Orlando I would have direct rail HSR connections to 3 cities. Currently if I go to Orlando airport, I can fly non-stop to over 90 cities. Direct flights are over 100. With one change of plane I can get to hundreds of cities on every continent except Antarctica.

The reality is that it costs billions of dollars to connect two cities by HSR, while with air travel you only need an airline that thinks there are a couple of hundred people a day that needs to go to the destination to allocate some equipment and announce a new flight.

[JoelUpchurch]

Personally, I think it's going to fail on simple ridership considerations. The number of people who commute between the bay area and Orlando is pretty miniscule.

The stretch of I-4 between Tampa and Orlando is always pretty busy, I can tell you, at practically all hours of the day. Somebody wants to get from here to there.

The people aren't going from Tampa and Orlando. Polk County has become a suburb for both. I know people who live in Lakeland and work at Disney in Orange county. I think Disney should have their own bus system like Google. It would take a lot more people off the road than a light rail system.

[BrainGlutton]

Here, (http://www.ushsr.com/hsrnetwork.html) BTW, is the U.S. High Speed Rail Association's vision for a national HSR network.

According to this map, from Orlando I would have direct rail HSR connections to 3 cities. Currently if I go to Orlando airport, I can fly non-stop to over 90 cities. Direct flights are over 100. With one change of plane I can get to hundreds of cities on every continent except Antarctica.

The reality is that it costs billions of dollars to connect two cities by HSR, while with air travel you only need an airline that thinks there are a couple of hundred people a day that needs to go to the destination to allocate some equipment and announce a new flight.

So? Every country that has HSR also has an air transportation system. Yet the HSR lines still get plenty of riders and nobody seems to regret the investment.

As for the U.S., it's obvious we need alternatives to air travel, at least along the busiest corridors.

[BrainGlutton]

The stretch of I-4 between Tampa and Orlando is always pretty busy, I can tell you, at practically all hours of the day. Somebody wants to get from here to there.

The people aren't going from Tampa and Orlando. Polk County has become a suburb for both. I know people who live in Lakeland and work at Disney in Orange county. I think Disney should have their own bus system like Google. It would take a lot more people off the road than a light rail system.

You could write a letter to Disney; but I'm sure they're making all their plans around the HSR, which is a done deal and will have a special stop at Walt Disney World.

In any case, the HSR line will have a stop in Lakeland, so if you live in Polk County you could use it to commute to Tampa or Orlando.

[JoelUpchurch]

You could write a letter to Disney; but I'm sure they're making all their plans around the HSR, which is a done deal and will have a special stop at Walt Disney World.

In any case, the HSR line will have a stop in Lakeland, so if you live in Polk County you could use it to commute to Tampa or Orlando.


You might want to study a map once in a while. Only 94,000 people live in Lakeland city, but 580,000 live in Polk county, which is half again larger than Rhode Island. When I talk about the Lakeland Metro area which is Polk County. Very free people would bother driving to the Lakeland city to catch the train. They just go to the closest I-4 exit.

Stops at Disney and Lakeland? Congratulations, they have created a HSR system that is slower than driving.

I'd also like to point out it isn't a done deal. If Congress doesn't appropriate money for it next year it can be undone just like that.

[BrainGlutton]

You might want to study a map once in a while. Only 94,000 people live in Lakeland city, but 580,000 live in Polk county, which is half again larger than Rhode Island. When I talk about the Lakeland Metro area which is Polk County. Very free people would bother driving to the Lakeland city to catch the train. They just go to the closest I-4 exit.

If you'll study the TBARTA Master Plan (http://www.tbarta.com/sites/tbarta.com/files/vision-maps.pdf) -- go to the second map, "Long-Term Supporting Network" -- you'll find it includes expanded bus service througout Polk County. IOW, you could hop a bus to Lakeland to catch the HSR.

Stops at Disney and Lakeland? Congratulations, they have created a HSR system that is slower than driving.

Cite?

I'd also like to point out it isn't a done deal. If Congress doesn't appropriate money for it next year it can be undone just like that.

You know something we don't? Is there some move afoot to petition Congress to kill Florida's HSR? Or are you assuming the midterm elections will return a GOP majority that will kill it? If so, why would a GOP majority kill it? As noted in the OP, I just don't understand people who oppose HSR or light rail or new urbanism for ideological reasons.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I'm pretty sure the money was already appropriated.

[BrainGlutton]

I'm pretty sure the money was already appropriated.

Yes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High_Speed_Rail#Plans_revived_in_2009)

Passage of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 designated $8 billion for the development of a high-speed intercity passenger rail system. The Federal Railroad Administration named Florida one of ten high speed rail corridors potentially eligible for the federal funding.[9] The HSRA met on February 26, 2009 to being planning their application for these funds.[10] Due to the passage of time, potential legal issues, and new federal funding criteria rendering the earlier bids from 2003 inapplicable, the decision was made in May 2009 that a new bidding process would be necessary.[11][12] A first round application was summited in August 2009 for $30 Million to conduct a two year environmental study on the Orlando-Miami route. In October 2009, the authority summited an application during the second round for the entire Tampa - Orlando - Miami corridor, broken into two components: Orlando-Tampa and Orlando-Miami.[13] Connect Us, a political action committee, was launched on August 18, 2009 to rally public support for these applications.[14]

On December 16, the Florida Legislature passed a bill authorizing FDOT move forward with the purchase from CSX of the Central Florida Rail Corridor for the SunRail commuter rail project, and providing much needed additional funding for South Florida's Tri-Rail commuter rail system.[15] Funding of these initiatives was vital to the state's hopes to win federal HSR funding, as it showed the state of Florida was committed to creating a comprehensive rail network allowing connectivity between high speed rail and local mass transit systems.[16] The legislation also replaced the Florida High Speed Rail Authority with the Florida Rail Enterprise, a new agency created under the FDOT, responsible for construction, maintenance, and promotion of the state's high-speed rail system, as well as development and operation of publicly funded passenger rail systems in general.[17]

On January 28, 2010, the White House announced that Florida would receive $1.25 Billion of its request, about half of the cost of the Tampa-Orlando segment.[3] The state's efforts towards high speed rail between 2000 and 2005 put Florida ahead of the field in terms of the level of planning already completed, and this proved to be a major factor in winning the funds.[2] The preservation of the I-4 corridor by the FDOT, and completion of the environmental impact studies in 2005 meant that the project could proceed to construction in a very short time frame for a relatively affordable cost. As of March 2010 the Florida Rail Enterprise was seeking to refine cost estimates based on advanced engineering, finish development of possible Early Works (Install permanent barrier systems along most of I-4 and remove/relocate elements in median) and contract for bid this year and finally initiate a new bid procurement process specific to the Tampa to Orlando phase.[1] Construction of the line is slated to begin in 2011, with the initial phase completed by 2014.[2] In June, 2010, the Federal Railroad Administration issued its record of final decision, the final stage of approval for the design, purchase of land and construction of phase one. Tendering is thus able to begin.[18]

Of course, that leaves the state to raise the other half. But at this point, I'd say it's a done deal politically in Florida. Disney obviously is panting for the day it gets its own HSR stop, and in this state you don't diss Disney. And Miami is already building a new central train station (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Central_Station) next to the airport, in anticipation of HSR (pending which it will be the central station for Amtrak, Tri-Rail, and Metrorail); which is only part of the new Miami Intermodal Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Intermodal_Center) complex (with a huge car-rental facility).

[BrainGlutton]

Breaking news: Florida is going for even more federal funding for HSR. (http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/08/28/1796658/fla-seeks-more-federal-funding.html)

[pyromyte]

I live and work in the Space Coast, and I occasionally travel through Orlando on the way to Tampa about once every 4 to 5 weeks for fun, but I cannot imagine ever wanting to take the train. I just don't know how I would get around in Tampa without my car once I got there. I can make it to Tampa in a little over 2 hrs by car, so the train would have to be significantly faster to make up for me being without my car. I guess I think most people would also be like me (maybe that is not a valid assumption??), and ridership will be low and cost taxpayers a bunch for not much benefit.

I also heard a plan for a passenger train utilizing existing freight tracks pretty much following I-95 from Jacksonville to Miami. The proposed schedule had a 6 hour train ride from my house to Miami (I can make it there in 3 hrs by car and not have to wait on or pay for taxis once I'm there.)

Hopefully, I am wrong and the rails are a huge success, considering it looks like I will be paying for them either way.. Hopefully they will be such a success that they will improve other transportation options, but I remain doubtful and wishing I had my money back.

[JoelUpchurch]

You might want to study a map once in a while. Only 94,000 people live in Lakeland city, but 580,000 live in Polk county, which is half again larger than Rhode Island. When I talk about the Lakeland Metro area which is Polk County. Very free people would bother driving to the Lakeland city to catch the train. They just go to the closest I-4 exit.

If you'll study the TBARTA Master Plan (http://www.tbarta.com/sites/tbarta.com/files/vision-maps.pdf) -- go to the second map, "Long-Term Supporting Network" -- you'll find it includes expanded bus service througout Polk County. IOW, you could hop a bus to Lakeland to catch the HSR.



Cite?

I'd also like to point out it isn't a done deal. If Congress doesn't appropriate money for it next year it can be undone just like that.

You know something we don't? Is there some move afoot to petition Congress to kill Florida's HSR? Or are you assuming the midterm elections will return a GOP majority that will kill it? If so, why would a GOP majority kill it? As noted in the OP, I just don't understand people who oppose HSR or light rail or new urbanism for ideological reasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High_Speed_Rail#Phase_1:_Tampa_to_Orlando_route

Take a look at the proposed time savings. From downtown Tampa to Orlando International Airport the savings is only 18 minutes after the three stops are added. Lets assume you are 5 minutes from the Tampa station and you only have to wait 10 minutes for a train. You are down to 3 minute savings. At the other end you are at Orlando Airport, which is a pretty silly place to be unless you catching a plane in which case you should have gone to Tampa Airport. If you are going somewhere else, you've blown your 3 minutes before you get to the taxi stand.

And yes I expect the Republicans to take over the House and to cut funding for HSR. They will want to fund their boondoggles and not the Democratic boondoggles. It has nothing to do with ideology, it is about the money.

In any case I don't think HSR is needed in this country. Air travel works well enough in the US or at least it would work if we put the TSA on a leash. If anything the proposed HSR is more vulnerable to terrorist action than our current air traffic system.

[BrainGlutton]

Air travel works well enough in the US or at least it would work if we put the TSA on a leash. If anything the proposed HSR is more vulnerable to terrorist action than our current air traffic system.

:confused: I suppose you could plant bombs on the tracks . . . But you seem to be saying our air-travel-security system is too strict as it is.

[Chronos]

I suppose you could plant bombs on the tracks . . . But you seem to be saying our air-travel-security system is too strict as it is. The TSA is simultaneously too strict and not strict enough. They'll confiscate water bottles, but let people on board with laptops. Even with the TSA, there's no way to stop someone who just wanted to destroy a plane, and even without them, there'd be no way anyone could hijack one.

[BrainGlutton]

I suppose you could plant bombs on the tracks . . . But you seem to be saying our air-travel-security system is too strict as it is. The TSA is simultaneously too strict and not strict enough. They'll confiscate water bottles, but let people on board with laptops. Even with the TSA, there's no way to stop someone who just wanted to destroy a plane, and even without them, there'd be no way anyone could hijack one.

Well, you could destroy a train, or you could take it over and hold the passengers as hostages; but you can't hijack a train. It goes where the tracks go and nowhere else.

[BrainGlutton]

I live and work in the Space Coast, and I occasionally travel through Orlando on the way to Tampa about once every 4 to 5 weeks for fun, but I cannot imagine ever wanting to take the train. I just don't know how I would get around in Tampa without my car once I got there.

Re-read the OP -- the point of this referendum is to fund mass transit in Tampa. Including light rail, but also greatly improved bus service. If it gets done, you could get around in Tampa without a car.

It's not just a time saver -- from the Space Coast, you could drive (or take a bus!) to the Orlando Airport, where the HSR station nearest to you would be*; then ride to and around Tampa, without bothering to drive yourself, without putting any mileage on your car, and without adding nearly as much CO2 to the atmosphere. That's worth something, isn't it?

*That's for the first Tampa-Orlando leg. For the second Orlando-to-Miami phase, Florida High Speed Rail (http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/) is looking at two possible alignments, one of which would go by way of the Space Coast, and follow the I-95 corridor down to Miami. (The other would follow the route of Florida's Turnpike.)

[BrainGlutton]

BTW, and apropos of something, one developer is looking to build the Tampa Bay Rays a new baseball stadium in downtown Tampa, (http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/developers-plan-places-tampa-bay-rays-in-downtown-tampa/1074124) at a site right next to the Ice Palace and the Florida Aquarium. And there's even what appears to be a grassroots organization (http://builditdowntowntampa.org/default.aspx) for that purpose (grassroots or astroturf, I couldn't say). The St. Petersburgers don't like that one little bit, of course; the Rays' current ballpark, Tropicana Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropicana_Field) (a stadium with a very troubled history) is in St. Pete. But if the referendum passes and HSR is not derailed, that can only strengthen the downtown-Tampa bid, as the proposed site is right next to a streetcar stop, and within walking distance of the proposed central multimodal (HSR/light-rail/streetcar/bus) station, covering 5 blocks running along the south edge of I-4, from Tampa Street to Jefferson Street -- see drawing in this (http://tampa.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=1183308) Creative Loafing article on the past and future of Franklin Street. Oh, and that's another thing, when the one existing streetcar line is completed, it is supposed to run up Franklin as far as Palm Avenue (see p. 3 of this pdf (http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org/news/inventing_the_future.pdf)), and east on Palm to Ybor. The extension to Franklin & Whiting is being built now, opens in December. I don't know if all of that will get done, but if the referendum passes, etc., I'm sure they'll at least run it up Franklin to the HSR station by the time the latter opens. Which can only help business on Franklin Street.

All of this including the stadium is at least 5-10 years in the future, of course, and might never happen.

[JoelUpchurch]

Air travel works well enough in the US or at least it would work if we put the TSA on a leash. If anything the proposed HSR is more vulnerable to terrorist action than our current air traffic system.

:confused: I suppose you could plant bombs on the tracks . . . But you seem to be saying our air-travel-security system is too strict as it is.

As far as HSR is concerned, I'm more worried about acid than bombs. A bomb can take out one train. A bottle of acid will shut down the whole system while the track is being inspected. When you are talking about a train moving at 150MPH, you don't need a bomb.

I worry about transportation infrastructure. From my point of view the security theater of the TSA is doing more damage to us than the terrorists did. As far a I'm concerned, that should have quit after they hardened the cockpit doors and told the flight crew to not open the door even if the terrorists start executing passengers. We have an interest in preventing our planes from being converted into missiles, but I don't see why air passengers are any more valuable than the other 300 million people in our country are. If the Times Square bomber had been a little smarter or better trained he could have ended up killing a lot more people than an airplane bombing.

My point is, that HSR creates a target thousands of miles long and practically impossible to defend. With air travel, the planes are vulnerable, but the terrorists can't blow up the sky.

[Muffin]

I just don't know how I would get around in Tampa without my car once I got there.That pretty much sums up the problem of high speed rail in North America -- inadequate public transportation at the destinations. HSR is only one part of a transportation system, so if the other parts are not up to snuff, people will avoid HSR not because of HSR in and of itself, but because some other part of the system does not meet their needs.

[BrainGlutton]

I just don't know how I would get around in Tampa without my car once I got there.That pretty much sums up the problem of high speed rail in North America -- inadequate public transportation at the destinations. HSR is only one part of a transportation system, so if the other parts are not up to snuff, people will avoid HSR not because of HSR in and of itself, but because some other part of the system does not meet their needs.

Well, that's what the Hillsborough County referendum under discussion is about -- gettiing some adequate public transportation at least at this particular destination.

Orlando, at its end, is planning an intercity commuter-rail system called SunRail, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunRail) to run from Kissimmee to DeLand. Attempts to establish local light rail in Orlando have met with much resistance. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando,_Florida#Commuter_rail) But, there is a bus system for the Orange-Seminole-Osceola region, called LYNX. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(transportation))

[JoelUpchurch]

Orlando, at its end, is planning an intercity commuter-rail system called SunRail, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunRail) to run from Kissimmee to DeLand. Attempts to establish local light rail in Orlando have met with much resistance. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando,_Florida#Commuter_rail) But, there is a bus system for the Orange-Seminole-Osceola region, called LYNX. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(transportation))


The SunRail doesn't actually interconnect with HSR. That is listed as one of the TBD things.

http://www.wftv.com/news/22779110/detail.html

My guess is that they will run shuttle buses from the Sand Lake Road Station to the airport. It would only take about 10 minutes from the station to the A side terminal.

[BrainGlutton]

The SunRail doesn't actually interconnect with HSR.

Nor will Tampa's Amtrak terminal, Union Station. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Union_Station) Not making Union Station the HSR stop has been a controversial decision -- if we already have a train station, why not use it for everything? (Especially as it is a picturesque historic station, which was long abandoned, and which local civic groups made great and successful efforts in the 1990s to have restored and reopened.) But, the planned intermodal station is still downtown and is only a few blocks from Union Station.

BTW: Right between Union Station and the intermodal station, just a block or two from each, and filling a gap between Downtown and Ybor City, Encore (http://www.encoretampa.com/) now is being built -- a huge mixed-income, mixed-use, residential-retail-office urban-infill development, very New Urbanist. It is being built on the site of the old Central Avenue district, which once was the heart of African-American culture and commerce in Tampa -- mostly destroyed in race rioting in 1967; the remainder demolished in urban renewal in 1974; later replaced by Central Park Village, typical project-housing apartments; which recently were demolished to make way for Encore. Check out the site plan (http://www.encoretampa.com/site-plan.php) and virtual fly-thru. (http://www.encoretampa.com/virtual-fly-thru.php) It'll really be beautiful (at least by downtown-Tampa standards).

And, no, I don't know what happened to the residents of Central Park Village; but at any rate, this ain't your standard fuck-the-poor gentrification project. It will provide some low-income units, some retirement apartments -- and, for residents of the area generally, something sorely lacking that every neighborhood needs: A supermarket.

[JoelUpchurch]

We aren't talking about a couple of blocks. The closest stations are 5 miles apart even though the rails lines intersect.

[BrainGlutton]

We aren't talking about a couple of blocks. The closest stations are 5 miles apart even though the rails lines intersect.

I guess that's because they decided on only three HSR stops in the Orlando area -- the airport, Convention Center, and Disney -- for facilitation-of-tourism purposes; and SunRail is using the existing CSX tracks, and those tracks don't go to the airport, Convention Center, or Disney. Bad planning from decades ago, whaddaya gonna do.

Well. Go here (http://flhsr.squarespace.com/public-info-sessions-augsept-2/) click on "August/Sept. 2010 Presentation," and you'll get a pdf PowerPoint presentation -- go to p. 25, "ORLANDO RAIL ROUTES," and you'll see an Orlando-area map showing the HRS, SunRail, and (I did not know about this) a planned east-west light-rail line, which would connect to the airport and the HSR stop there, and which also would connect to SunRail at Sand Lake Road. Not perfect intermodality, but much better than none.

[BrainGlutton]

I just found out one of the organizations opposing the tax is Ax the Tax, (http://www.axthetax.org/_ax-the-tax.html) headed by one Doug Guetzloe, who is a Tea Party leader . . . or not. Two groups in Florida, Guetzloe's and another, are suing each other over the TEA Party name. (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/doug_guetzloe/) Republican gubernatorial nominee Rick Scott responded by the deleting the "TEA Party" endorsement from his website. (http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/blog/rick-scott-scrubs-tea-endorsement-his-website)

This is the same Doug Guetzloe who, in 2006, was accused of trying to extort $200,000 from the Orlando Magic to get him to drop his opposition to a tax for a new stadium, (http://www.wftv.com/news/10072833/detail.html) and who recently was convicted of a misdemeanor campaign-flier violation. (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2010-08-28/news/os-doug-guetzloe-sentencing-set-20100827_1_doug-guetzloe-new-sentencing-date-sentencing-hearing)

Interesting times.

[NetTrekker]

Besides which, how about freedom from pumping gas, paying for repairs and maintenance, getting stranded by a flat tire, and finding a place to park. Along with the flexibility, there are burdens involved with driving.

Not all of which are immediately visible. Air quality, for instance. And, of course, a lot of your tax dollars -- federal, state and local -- go for automobile-related expenses: Building, repairing and maintaining paved streets, roads, highways; putting up signs and signals; cops to patrol for traffic violations; special courts for traffic violations; EMTs and tow trucks to clean up after traffic accidents; examining and licensing every driver; everything government has to do to regulate, or sometimes bail out, the auto industry; and maintenance of the world's most expensive military establishment, the prime unstated mission of which is to make sure America's supply of cheap imported petroleum is never interrupted.

And yet so many think of motoring as an instance of the individual's independence from the state.

To answer the OP, I would vote in favor of the referendum. Another penny of sales tax would be worth it to me to have light rail. Even in this severe recession, gas prices aren't going much below $2.50 and will only go higher in the future. Auto insurance is $100/mo. or more. If we attached a monetary cost to the congestion, air pollution, sprawl, death/injury/ongoing medical costs, and the other costs mentioned in the quote, what would be the true cost of driving? People that can't afford to own and operate cars need transportation options, as well as the elderly and others who can't drive. Tampa is the only city of its size without light rail, a factor that discourages businesses from locating there. It will tie in with the HSR to Orlando and beyond. Building and expanding more roadways is not a good solution to continued growth.

[BrainGlutton]

Building and expanding more roadways is not a good solution to continued growth.

N.B.: 25% of the penny-tax revenue is to go for road repairs, improvements and upgrades. My understanding, however, is that this (mostly) does not mean building more roads, but improving existing ones. See here (http://www.movinghillsboroughforward.org/the-plan/roads.aspx) for a list.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Orlando, at its end, is planning an intercity commuter-rail system called SunRail, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunRail) to run from Kissimmee to DeLand. Attempts to establish local light rail in Orlando have met with much resistance. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando,_Florida#Commuter_rail) But, there is a bus system for the Orange-Seminole-Osceola region, called LYNX. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(transportation))
Thanks to some rather blatant malfeasance on the part of the Orlando Expressway Authority board, SunRail is looking less and less likely. People just aren't in the mood to approve of government projects, even at the local level.

[BrainGlutton]

Orlando, at its end, is planning an intercity commuter-rail system called SunRail, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunRail) to run from Kissimmee to DeLand. Attempts to establish local light rail in Orlando have met with much resistance. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando,_Florida#Commuter_rail) But, there is a bus system for the Orange-Seminole-Osceola region, called LYNX. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(transportation))
Thanks to some rather blatant malfeasance on the part of the Orlando Expressway Authority board, SunRail is looking less and less likely. People just aren't in the mood to approve of government projects, even at the local level.

What malfeasance?

[Really Not All That Bright]

It's not clear yet whether anything that was actually illegal occurred, but there was plenty of shady stuff going on. (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4054)

[BrainGlutton]

It's not clear yet whether anything that was actually illegal occurred, but there was plenty of shady stuff going on. (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4054)

But, is this Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority the same agency as would be responsible for building SunRail?

[NetTrekker]

Building and expanding more roadways is not a good solution to continued growth.

N.B.: 25% of the penny-tax revenue is to go for road repairs, improvements and upgrades. My understanding, however, is that this (mostly) does not mean building more roads, but improving existing ones. See here (http://www.movinghillsboroughforward.org/the-plan/roads.aspx) for a list.

I'd still vote for it, since it gets local rail started. It will take time to build out and in the meantime you still have to have adequate roads. I think the idea is to avoid having to build massive new elevated expressways and/or keep adding lanes to I-275, Dale Mabry, etc.

[BrainGlutton]

N.B.: 25% of the penny-tax revenue is to go for road repairs, improvements and upgrades. My understanding, however, is that this (mostly) does not mean building more roads, but improving existing ones. See here (http://www.movinghillsboroughforward.org/the-plan/roads.aspx) for a list.

I'd still vote for it, since it gets local rail started. It will take time to build out and in the meantime you still have to have adequate roads. I think the idea is to avoid having to build massive new elevated expressways and/or keep adding lanes to I-275, Dale Mabry, etc.

I can certainly think of a lot of existing streets that badly need resurfacing, at the very least. Ever try to drive on Swann east of MacDill? Or Bayshore north of Rome?

[BrainGlutton]

Update: Latest poll (http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/article1126888.ece) shows Hillsborough voters favoring the transportation tax -- but the margin is very slim: 51% in favor, 39% opposed, 10&% undecided.

The Chamber of Commerce and all the local newspapers have endorsed the tax. No prominent organizations are opposing it, AFAIK.

[BrainGlutton]

Well, this is interesting . . . This evening I went to a TBARTA presentation on mass transit in the Tampa Bay Area. And at the end of the presenter's engaging talk, as an oh-by-the-way, he offered everyone a "No On 4" leaflet, saying that the proposed Amendment 4 "would be a killer for mass transit." Amendment 4 will be on the state ballot this November; it would require any change to a local comprehensive land-use plan to be approved by the community's voters. (See this thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=575776) I don't see the connection . . . except that he had been touting mass transit as a boost to local property development -- i.e., developers will locate their projects near a light-rail line or BRT (bus rapid transit) route if they have a choice. Thing is, though, he made it sound like Amendment 4 would mean requiring a public vote on every single building permit, which I'm pretty sure is not the case.

The leaflet says at the bottom: "NAIOP" -- the acronym is not explained -- "COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION - TAMPA BAY CHAPTER"; and below that, "Paid political advertisement. Paid for by the Tampa Bay Regional Coalition." Whatever that is; googling turns up nothing.

As eday draws nearer I'm increasingly curious: What's the thinking here? Why would Amendment 4 be a killer for mass transit?

[Peremensoe]

I would argue that getting any great number of people excited about taking the train will be the most impossible PR move of the century.

What do people want most in transport? Freedom. And freedom, for almost everyone, equals car. I would think it would take at least a generation without gasoline, or workable alternate fuels, to change thinking on that score.

Oh, I think a year or so without affordable gasoline will be plenty of time to convince people that a transport system that does not require them to own, maintain and fuel their own personal vehicle gives them vastly more freedom than one that does.

Of course, if we don't have that system largely built by then, a lot of us are going to be fucked.

[Amp]

Well, it's early but it is not looking good for the Transit Tax here. As of right now, with 22% of precints reporting in, we are looking at a 60% against, 40 % for.

Something I thought was funny was an exit poll on www.tbo.com:

Vanderlyn Jones, 58, voted Democrat.

"I want all the Democrats to win," she said outside the College Hill Public Library. "Get the Republicans out of office."

She also voted against the transportation tax. She feels that roads and schools need to be improved more than anything else and that people already pay too much in taxes.

Ummm... a percantage of the Transit Tax was going to go towards road improvements.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Well, nobody said the Republicans had a monopoly on cognitive dissonance.

[NetTrekker]

Charlotte is looking better..

Or maybe Canada.