Clueless Car Salesmen

[digs]

"What would it take to get you into this car today? ... Now, I'm going to write down a number..."

Just when I thought I was in the 21st century, I stepped back into the attitudes of the 70s by making the mistake of trying to buy a car at an old school dealership.

Or maybe we just by chance got a young failed MBA who decided he'd try working for Uncle Larry at the family dealership, even though he had no people skills.

We walked in, told him we'd decided to buy a Corolla, what color, features, etc. we wanted. And what price we were willing to pay. Then just asked Yes or No -- would he match our price or should we drive across town?

He was a young, hip-looking guy, but must have been in the middle of some training/pledge (& hazing?) period...

He talked down to us, told awkward jokes (Uncle Larry's "Women Driver" jokes), and even pulled the "Well, I'll have to spend ten minutes pretending to get approval from my manager..." bit.

I'm betting he wasn't getting a price from the manager but a pep talk: "Don't let the customer have any control. YOU take control! Don't let them tell you about the car (when they discover you don't know anything about that model). YOU tell THEM what they should know!"

He actually wheeled out the old clichés: "What would it take to get you into this car today?" (Ummm, come close to our price maybe?), and "How can you put a price on safety?" (I'm not, I'm putting a price on a Toyota).

After trying to interest us in other models, and fancy upgrade packages, we finally had to get a word in edgewise and remind him why we were there. And then, when we asked for his best price, he disappeared again, came back and wrote down an absurdly high figure.

"That's your best price?" we asked.

"Yes, well, that's a very good price."

"Okay, bye. As we told you, we've got a budget."

"But we need to come up with a fair price."

"We did come up with a fair price -- that includes a decent profit for you." We say this as we stand to leave. He panics.

"But that's not our FINAL priiiiice..." he whines.

"Excuse me? We asked you for your best price, and you wrote down a very large figure."

"Well, well, that wasn't the best price. That was just the price I wrote down.
I mean, that was with the upgrade package... " (that we'd said we didn't want)

"All right, what is your best price?"

"Well, it can be better than the price I wrote down."

"OK, is your best price at all close to our price?" (he consults with Uncle Larry again)

"OK, now, what would it take to get you into this car right now?"

"Matching our price. Look, we told you we didn't want to waste our time negotiating. If you don't want to sell us the car, we'll shop around, and get it cheaper elsewhere."

"B- B- but..."

And as we walk out, he yells "But that's not our priiiiice..."

[Euphonious Polemic]

Reminds me of a time we were (not that seriously) looking for a new truck. Checked out a dealers lot, and Billy-bob salesman attached himself to us. Long story short, we asked him what we'd get for our old truck. Much humming and hawing occured. I knew from research that the truck had a book value of 8k, and I could easily have sold it for that on the street given it's good condition. I figured he'd offer us 4k - 6k - on the higher range if he really wanted to make a sale.

He came in with a "generous" offer of $1800. I just looked at him like he had a fungus growing out of his head. I said "well that's that then." And left. With him calling after us "I'm sure we could do better!"

He actually had the nerve to call me that evening (he had our # from some paperwork we'd filled out) and say that he had "special permission" to offer us $2500. I told him his offer was insulting, and implied that I was a complete moron.

We sold that truck several years (and many Km) later for $6500. I know that they need to make a profit buying and selling, but really - do they need to try to screw people over so much?

[OttoDaFe]

This happened a number of years ago, so it may have been quasi-acceptable; but a salesman blew his chance* by referring to my then-wife as "the little woman."

Granted, she is just a shade over the "five-foot-two" of song, and at the time was about one-oh-five sopping wet; but she is emphatically not "little." The salesman trailed us halfway across the lot, little realizing that I was doing him a favor by getting her out of there before she moidalated him.

*We knew what we wanted, we knew the dealer had it, and we knew from research that the list price was very close to what we wanted to pay.

[digs]

Waaall, your little lady there didn't need to go worryin' her pretty little head about features and prices an' all that. Just needed to know the color, is all...

[x-ray vision]

That's the way buying a used car works. If you didn't want to haggle over a price, you could have given him your bottom line and your phone number on a card and told him to call you if he changed his mind and walked out. If you go to the next dealership and think you're going to get a pat answer for what the best price is, I think you're going to be disappointed and you'll find all dealerships are "old school". Don't hate the playah; hate the game.

[Lynn Bodoni]

That's how buying a used car USED to work. Nowadays, even Great Grandpa can and will go onto the internet to check out basic info and ballpark prices. The dealerships that are old school can hold firm, and they might be able to get a few people to play their game. There's a new game in town, though, and when the old school dealerships get tired of watching potential customers walk out the door because they've insulted the customer's intelligence, those dealerships might learn the new rules.

Or go out of business. I won't weep for those dealerships that do fold. The old school was based on screwing the customers as hard as they could, and while that is good for the business in the short term, the dealerships will have to learn the new game.

[Captain Midnight]

I am 43 years old and have never bought a car, especially a new car. When I was younger, my parents bought me a few cars. Now where I live, I don't need a car and I love it.

Personally, I abhor bargaining. I do because I do not want to argue with someone over prices. I hate the little games involved, with me matching wits with someone who has been trained in sales.

In everyday life, I do not bargain or haggle. I refuse to do so. I hate it, and find it totally unnecessary. When I buy something, I want to know what the price of something is. It is not my place to quote a price, I am buying, not selling. In a car deal, if the salesman asked me "What would it take to put you in this car today?" I would immediately grab my shit and walk out the door. Same as the real estate agent who always chimes this bullshit line after showing someone some property, "Well, I have two other bidders looking today..." If that was true, why isn't the salesperson with them closing the deal?

I started a thread talking about my abhorrance towards bargaining and haggling.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=571610&highlight=bargaining

But to buy a car or a home, one has to go through this misery, this sales routine, how much are you willing to pay, and all that garbage. I'd rather be sodomized by a porcupine with a 13 inch rod.

[PoorYorick]

Some people love to haggle. I'm not one of them. That's why I've bought my last three cars from CarMax. It's like buying a refrigerator; the sticker price is THE price, no dicking around. And you don't walk out wondering whether you've been screwed or not.

[x-ray vision]

That's how buying a used car USED to work. Nowadays, even Great Grandpa can and will go onto the internet to check out basic info and ballpark prices.
IME, dealerships haven't changed since the internet. Going on the internet before used car shopping won't help unless you specifically know what makes, models and years you'll be looking at. Even back in the day, there was KBB, and one could check basic prices there too but the salesman still haggled; that's the game they're taught to play.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Some people love to haggle. I'm not one of them. That's why I've bought my last three cars from CarMax. It's like buying a refrigerator; the sticker price is THE price, no dicking around. And you don't walk out wondering whether you've been screwed or not.
...because you know you've been screwed, and exactly how much.

[PoorYorick]

Some people love to haggle. I'm not one of them. That's why I've bought my last three cars from CarMax. It's like buying a refrigerator; the sticker price is THE price, no dicking around. And you don't walk out wondering whether you've been screwed or not.
...because you know you've been screwed, and exactly how much.
Heh. Not really; I got what I thought were fair prices for cars in excellent condition based on comparison pricing. I have no doubt that I could have gotten a better deal, though, if I had run around a bunch of dealerships, submitting competing "bids." And I'm sure this is what a good haggler with time on his side would might do, which leaves me out.

They also have a 5-day "buyer's remorse" clause. My wife decided that the car she got wasn't quite what she wanted, and returned it 5 days later, no questions asked, no pressure.

No, I'm not a shill for CarMax. :)

[Really Not All That Bright]

I'm not saying buying from CarMax is a bad idea; I would. Their cars are overpriced, but they overcharge everyone the same amount, and their median markup is probably roughly equal to that of a "normal" dealer.

In other words, CarMax is good for people who get hosed by regular dealers, and bad for people who don't.

[Bricker]

I'm not saying buying from CarMax is a bad idea; I would. Their cars are overpriced, but they overcharge everyone the same amount, and their median markup is probably roughly equal to that of a "normal" dealer.

In other words, CarMax is good for people who get hosed by regular dealers, and bad for people who don't.

Agreed. A good bargainer, who's done his research ahead of time, can beat CarMax's price at an "old school" dealer. Someone who abhors bargaining and just wants a final number will get a better deal at CarMax than elsewhere.

[Chefguy]

Waaall, your little lady there didn't need to go worryin' her pretty little head about features and prices an' all that. Just needed to know the color, is all...

Why didn't you immediately ask for a different salesman when the guy started jerking you around? Or ask to talk to the sales manager? The guy was obviously completely clueless and inexperienced. Salesmen usually can't help themselves, though: even when I come in completely prepared and even tell them that I've sold vehicles before, they can't stop themselves from trying at least one old "if I could, would you?" ploy. I never answer that type of question, because it gets you going down a path you don't want to walk.

[ralph124c]

You need to talk to "Chop" Tobin..he can get you a deal/screwing of a lifetime!

[smiling bandit]

The last time I bought a car, I was pleasantly surprised by the dealer being respectful and kind. He wasn't generous: I paid more than I wanted to. But it was within my budget and the actual car I got, while nothing special, is the most reliable I could have asked for. It's not the game: it's the player, or not.

[Cat Whisperer]

When we were shopping for the Corolla five years ago (I give it two thumbs up after driving it for five years, digs, by the way), we actually encountered a car salesman who talked only to my husband (we made it clear that the car was for me). He'd ask my husband a question, I'd answer it, he'd ask my husband a follow-up question, I'd answer that; it was actually funny, it was so blatantly sexist. No, we didn't buy a car from him. :)

We ended up buying a car from a friend who worked at a dealership, and I wouldn't recommend that - I felt constrained from bargaining more ruthlessly.

[psychobunny]

The tip I got from a patient is when they go to "talk to the manager" tell them "When you come back, if I hear any word from your mouth except 'yes' my offer goes down $1000". Hold to this and keep dropping your price $1000 each time they say anything different. They'll come around pretty quickly. I also find it useful to go car shopping when I have PMS. The only problem I have is that the last time I bought a car it needing a few add-ons and the next day they called to tell me that the charge would be $800 extra. I gave the guy 30 minutes to call back and tell me the car was mine for the price we agreed on or the deal was off, and he gave up pretty quickly.

[Jackmannii]

The tip I got from a patient is when they go to "talk to the manager" tell them "When you come back, if I hear any word from your mouth except 'yes' my offer goes down $1000".This works especially well when you're bargaining for emergency abdominal surgery. :D

I found out last week that it's not just car dealers using time-honored bullshit sales tactics. I went to a department store to buy Mrs. J. a jewelry item for our anniversary, and the saleswoman didn't want to tell me how much it cost. "How much are you willing to spend?"* Cripes lady, just tell me how much the damn thing is selling for (this was at Macy's, home of the 50% + 20% + 10% + an extra 15% with coupon jewelry "sale", where it's hard enough to figure out how much jewelry is going for even with an upfront price).

*I also needed clothes, but I was afraid that if I picked out what I wanted in menswear, the clerk would say "What'll it take to put your butt in this pair of pants today?"

[Morbo]

Same "talk to the husband story happened to me (which I'll just paste from a previous thread):

I went with my wife to the car dealership so she could test drive a couple of cars after doing all her research, printing out Blue Book pages online, etc.

She kept asking the salesman questions about certain models she'd like to test drive, and he kept addressing all his answers to me. She'd ask another, he'd turn to me to answer, rinse, repeat.

After about 15 of these questions, I said to him "Why aren't you answering my wife? I'm not here to buy a car."

His response was more or less "Well you're the one who handles the money (hah hah) why else would you be here (hah hah)"

My response was more or less "Seeing as how she's the Controller / CFO for (large local company), she <a> handles the money and <b> I only gave her a ride, and now I'm giving her a ride elsewhere."

We went to another Subaru dealer, their competitor actually, and she was treated immediately with respect and intelligence. We were given a great deal, and drove her car off the lot that day.

This is Portland, Oregon, not what I would call the Land of the Good 'Ol Boy. Baffling.

[Lynn Bodoni]

That's how buying a used car USED to work. Nowadays, even Great Grandpa can and will go onto the internet to check out basic info and ballpark prices.
IME, dealerships haven't changed since the internet. Going on the internet before used car shopping won't help unless you specifically know what makes, models and years you'll be looking at. Even back in the day, there was KBB, and one could check basic prices there too but the salesman still haggled; that's the game they're taught to play. Easy. Go to the dealership and look at cars, note the makes and models and years, go back home and look that shit up. It's POSSIBLE that a particular car will sell between the time you get home and do the research on it, but not likely, and the last time I looked, there are approximately one hundred gazillion used cars out there, and very, very few of them are actually great bargains, unless the customer knows more about that particular car than the dealership. Most dealerships expect a customer to look at cars and then go home to think about it. They don't like it, but they expect it. What they LIKE is to have someone drooling over the car and forking over the first price they hear.

[PoorYorick]

Another way to make the Internet work for you is to go to the manufacturer's web site, see what promotions are available, and print them out. In my experience, the dealer is either unaware of a lot of these, or they're "unaware" (wink wink) of a lot of these.

[x-ray vision]

Easy. Go to the dealership and look at cars, note the makes and models and years, go back home and look that shit up. It's POSSIBLE that a particular car will sell between the time you get home and do the research on it, but not likely, and the last time I looked, there are approximately one hundred gazillion used cars out there, and very, very few of them are actually great bargains, unless the customer knows more about that particular car than the dealership. Most dealerships expect a customer to look at cars and then go home to think about it. They don't like it, but they expect it. What they LIKE is to have someone drooling over the car and forking over the first price they hear.
You don't even have to go through that if you bring a KBB with you. My point is that knowledge was available before the internet and that didn't stop salesman from playing the game that is part of the custom in the U.S. Salesman are doing what salesman have always done and haggling is still part of the game. Again, IME, I've seen no indication that there's a new game in town as far as there being an end to haggling; the dealerships are still "old school" in that regard.

[Lynn Bodoni]

Salesmen might be trying to play the old game. However, customers are not obliged to play it, and can and do walk out the door when salesmen try to engage them in the old dance. And my husband and I have bought a couple of cars lately. Some salesmen WILL try to engage us in the dance, while others will take us at our word that we won't play it. The ones who will give us their best price, and who won't lower the price when we say it's not good enough, are the ones that we consider when we make our choices. The ones who try to negotiate when we refuse the first price are the ones we avoid buying cars from.

[Jackmannii]

Another way to make the Internet work for you is to go to the manufacturer's web site, see what promotions are available, and print them out. In my experience, the dealer is either unaware of a lot of these, or they're "unaware" (wink wink) of a lot of these.I think it'd be incredibly rare for a dealership not to know about every single rebate and/or special deal
in effect. There's probably a meeting of all the salespeople at least weekly to make sure they're up to speed on the latest promotions.

[drastic_quench]

The best tactic is to find the make and model and options you want, and call around to all the area dealers and get their best price over the phone. Then you take the lowest price quoted and play them off of each other. "I just got off the phone with Mark at Lincoln/Ford/Mercury on 16, and he'll give me this price. I'd rather buy the car from your dealership, can you beat this price?" If yes, great. If no, next call.

[Mr Smashy]

Awhile ago someone on this board (not the pit, I don't think) posted this (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html) inside baseball about how the car dealer salesmen work (think it was new cars, but you get the drift). The oldschool process is mostly for the uneducated/unsophisticated/great unwashed.

[digs]

Follow up on the OP: We did buy from the competitor Toyota dealership, but emailed them first. Aha! Got a much better price than we'd been quoted at any of the "brick 'n' mortar" showrooms.

Although when we got to the dealership, we were told that the price was much higher.

When we explained that "Greg" (not his real name) (his real name was Jake Shimansky) at their dealership had quoted us a price that was better than what the salesperson had, said Olde School Polyester Shirt With Clip-On Tie Good Ol' Boy rolled his eyes (yes, he rolled his eyes in front of the customers): "Well, those internet guys, they don't really fight for the best price, they just give a single price". Followed by an "I just don't get it" shrug.

We asked to talk to "the internet guy", and bought a car from him. He didn't push "options" or "Sport Rallye" packages on us, and encouraged us to save a bundle by going all-manual: transmission, locks, and windows (which my daughter's friends are baffled by!).

[SeaDragonTattoo]

I'll never forget my first car-shopping on my own. I wanted two doors and a man-trans. I had $5,000 to spend, and I was 24 years old I think.

The first lot I stepped onto, I looked around for a bit and found one I wanted to test drive. The salesman popped off with "Well, that one there's a stick shift you know, young lady," and I just stared at him. "I drove here in that 'stick shift'. I'm looking for another one. Thanks." And I left.

The second car I bought, I drove for two years and sold it for the same amount I purchased it for. I basically drove it for the equivalent of the monthly payments, and broke even. My parents taught me well.

[Cat Whisperer]

Same "talk to the husband story happened to me (which I'll just paste from a previous thread):

I went with my wife to the car dealership so she could test drive a couple of cars after doing all her research, printing out Blue Book pages online, etc.

She kept asking the salesman questions about certain models she'd like to test drive, and he kept addressing all his answers to me. She'd ask another, he'd turn to me to answer, rinse, repeat.

After about 15 of these questions, I said to him "Why aren't you answering my wife? I'm not here to buy a car."

His response was more or less "Well you're the one who handles the money (hah hah) why else would you be here (hah hah)"

My response was more or less "Seeing as how she's the Controller / CFO for (large local company), she <a> handles the money and <b> I only gave her a ride, and now I'm giving her a ride elsewhere."

We went to another Subaru dealer, their competitor actually, and she was treated immediately with respect and intelligence. We were given a great deal, and drove her car off the lot that day.

This is Portland, Oregon, not what I would call the Land of the Good 'Ol Boy. Baffling.
It really is baffling. Do people still think that the man is always the one giving his wife an allowance? My husband works full-time and I usually work part-time (I've been off work for a while now) - I have the time to do all the banking, so I do. I let HIM know how much money we have, even though he's the one making all of it. We both went to look at cars because that big a financial decision needed to be made by both of us.

[DrDeth]

[
We walked in, told him we'd decided to buy a Corolla, what color, features, etc. we wanted. ]

First mistake. Never, ever buy a car from a Toyota dealer. The crook ratio is the highest in the new car lot biz. AFAIK, they are all like that. The cars are fine, the dealers are not.

The very best deals are often just using Edmunds and asking for a quote by email from a number of dealers. There is no downside to speak of, and they often give a lowball figure, and why not?

[DrDeth]

Easy. Go to the dealership and look at cars, note the makes and models and years, go back home and look that shit up. It's POSSIBLE that a particular car will sell between the time you get home and do the research on it, but not likely, and the last time I looked, there are approximately one hundred gazillion used cars out there, and very, very few of them are actually great bargains, unless the customer knows more about that particular car than the dealership. Most dealerships expect a customer to look at cars and then go home to think about it. They don't like it, but they expect it. What they LIKE is to have someone drooling over the car and forking over the first price they hear.
You don't even have to go through that if you bring a KBB with you. My point is that knowledge was available before the internet and that didn't stop salesman from playing the game that is part of the custom in the U.S. Salesman are doing what salesman have always done and haggling is still part of the game. Again, IME, I've seen no indication that there's a new game in town as far as there being an end to haggling; the dealerships are still "old school" in that regard.

Lynn's right, you're wrong. Especially as you mentioned "KBB" aka Kelly Blue Book, which has about zero credibility nowadays. Either use NADA or Edmunds.com. KBB is now mostly used by car salesmen and insurance adjusters to show you bogus values.

[Euphonious Polemic]

[
We walked in, told him we'd decided to buy a Corolla, what color, features, etc. we wanted. ]

First mistake. Never, ever buy a car from a Toyota dealer. The crook ratio is the highest in the new car lot biz. AFAIK, they are all like that. The cars are fine, the dealers are not.

The very best deals are often just using Edmunds and asking for a quote by email from a number of dealers. There is no downside to speak of, and they often give a lowball figure, and why not?

As far as I'm aware, if you want to buy a new Toyota in British Columbia, you will pay the sticker price. No haggling, no nothing. If you are an incredible bargainer, you might, just maybe score some free floor mats. I'm not sure if there is some other super secret way of getting a new Toyota for cheaper here - if there is, I'm not aware of it.

[DrDeth]

First mistake. Never, ever buy a car from a Toyota dealer. The crook ratio is the highest in the new car lot biz. AFAIK, they are all like that. The cars are fine, the dealers are not.

The very best deals are often just using Edmunds and asking for a quote by email from a number of dealers. There is no downside to speak of, and they often give a lowball figure, and why not?

As far as I'm aware, if you want to buy a new Toyota in British Columbia, you will pay the sticker price. No haggling, no nothing. If you are an incredible bargainer, you might, just maybe score some free floor mats. I'm not sure if there is some other super secret way of getting a new Toyota for cheaper here - if there is, I'm not aware of it.

Well, things area little different in the Great White North. But even when a car is in such hot demand, there's no discount, you can still get ripped off by the dealer:
1. Price over Suggested Retail
2. Changing the sticker price
3. Adding extra charges to the sticker "dealer prep"
4.cheating you on the trade-in
5. Giving you a higher interest rate.
6. Making you pay for unwanted or overpriced extras like "top coating" etc.
and so forth.

You could try a Canadian version of Edmunds by figuring out exactly what you want (even hypothetically) then emailing all the dealers within 200 miles.


http://www.canadiandriver.com/1999/02/19/do-it-yourself-dealer-cost.htm

[Miss Violaceous]

When we went to buy a car for my husband, we went to a used car lot of a friend-of-a-friend. When we set foot on the lot we were pounced upon by a newbie looking salesman, and we immediately asked for the owner by name. He starts to go off to get him, and we trail. He starts asking questions, what are you looking for, what are you looking to spend, etc. Our answer to the latter is basically "we are looking to spend nottoomuch for what we wind up with."

Sayeth salesman: "Well, it's not the price that matters, you know, it's the payments!"

Us: :dubious: :dubious:

Salesman: "...I'll go get Bill."

Husband: "Yeah, you do that."

ETA: This was at the absolute HEIGHT of the recession, when all of us were hurting from the notion of "it's not the price that matters, it's the payments, creative financing rah!"

[PoorYorick]

Sayeth salesman: "Well, it's not the price that matters, you know, it's the payments!"
Yeah, some of my otherwise smart friends have been burned by just that.

"So how much is the car?"
"Only $200 a month!"

[Sticks and Scones]

Wow. I worked for a 'One Price' group of dealerships for about 13 years including two Saturn stores. Things were so much easier. And, actually, the last time I bought a car it was from a local Scion dealer and they were the same way. Quite a few of the dealerships around here are like this. I'm actually surprised to hear that there is still so much dealing going on. (I'm in Ohio.)

[digs]

As far as I'm aware, if you want to buy a new Toyota in British Columbia, you will pay the sticker price. No haggling, no nothing. If you are an incredible bargainer, you might, just maybe score some free floor mats...

I'm laughing. I told the guy "I know it's a Toyota, and there's a waiting list, but I still want to feel like I'm getting away with something. Some brilliant piece of negotiation."

"Well, you could demand free floor mats."

So I did.

Oh, yeah. I got floor mats. For free.

[Jackmannii]

The very best deals are often just using Edmunds and asking for a quote by email from a number of dealers. There is no downside to speak of, and they often give a lowball figure, and why not?I gave up doing this awhile back, after contacting numerous dealers for quotes. I never got any kind of realistic quote, and often the quoted prices were not on models I was interested in.

They seemed more interested in getting me into the dealership than in making serious offers.

[Lanzy]

After test driving a used jeep priced 6500 I drove away from the lot in it for 2750 Cash. Great car.
Yep haggle is my middle name.

[Mr Smashy]

Sayeth salesman: "Well, it's not the price that matters, you know, it's the payments!"
Yeah, some of my otherwise smart friends have been burned by just that.

"So how much is the car?"
"Only $200 a month!"

True story:

I live in Northern Va and have a relative who owns a car dealership out west, near the top of the Shenandoah Valley (actually over the W Virginia line).

(Stereotype alert, if reality pisses you off, stop reading now ;) )

When the yokels came in out of the mountains, they'd tell the salesman what they wanted to buy. The salesmen were *trained* to say,

Salesman: "Can you afford $600 a month?"

To which Cletus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cletus_Spuckler) would reply: "No sir, that's too much"

Salesman: "How about $150 a week?"

Cletus: "Oh sure, we can handle that! Hey Brandine, git me that money order!"

Not every time of course, but it happened a lot.

[CrimeThink]

I went to the dealer just looking for ideas on a used car. I told the sales guy the price I was looking for and he showed me the things I could afford. One car caught my eye and I asked him if that was in my price range and he laughed and said afraid not. Cut to the next day, I was searching the internet. The same dealer has the same car and the internet listed price was exactly 1 dollar less than the figure I had given him. I buy the car directly from the internet sales manager the next day and smiled at the sales guy who could have gotten the sale himself if he wasn't trying to hose me.

[Projammer]

The last time I was thinking about getting a car I walked around some of the lots after hours to pre-pick some models that I might be interested in and then went home to research prices, options, mpg, reliability, etc.

I remember one of them had the basic am/fm radio and I looked up the price on upgrade to a CD player. $350. When I went back during the day I had already decided that if I got that car I'd just get a much better aftermarket for less money and install it myself. I was on the lot for 27.6 seconds before Slick McPolyester homes in on me.

Slick: Can I help you find something.
Me: I was looking at this car. How much is the CD option?
Slick: $1200!
Me: Really? When I checked online it was only $350.
Slick: Well. Um.. Ah. I was giving myself some wiggle room.
Me: Congratulations. You just wiggled yourself out of a sale. Go get yourself a cup of coffee and send someone else out.

The second guy was a bit more cautious after having been warned by slick, but ultimately I decided that my old ride was just fine.

[It's Not Rocket Surgery!]

I've been waiting to tell this story, and this seems like the appropriate thread.

10 years ago, my wife was in the market for a new Jetta. There were 2 VW dealers in town, so we went to Dealer #1 and got their price. Then we went to Dealer #2. We parked in the (very visible from the dealer's window) handicapped spot (my wife has MS) and she slowly made her way into the dealer, where we started talking to a salesman. Mr. Observant said "Yes, we have one on the lot. Let's go out and look at it." With that, he headed out the door (and past our car). We slowly followed, well behind him. Finally he turned and said "Hup hup! Let's go!" My wife gave him a glare that could have melted diamonds. Then she said "No hup hup! This is as fast as I go! I have MS!". He turned apologetic (and green), but we left and eventually bought a Jetta from the other dealer.

My own dealer story: I went to a Toyota dealer to price a new 1990 Tercel. The dealer wrote down the various costs, but included some amount for an "upgraded battery". When I questioned him on it, he said "We require everyone to get that. It's a....."

wait for it...


"Mandatory Option."

I bought a Civic instead.

[Chefguy]

I went to the dealer just looking for ideas on a used car. I told the sales guy the price I was looking for and he showed me the things I could afford. One car caught my eye and I asked him if that was in my price range and he laughed and said afraid not. Cut to the next day, I was searching the internet. The same dealer has the same car and the internet listed price was exactly 1 dollar less than the figure I had given him. I buy the car directly from the internet sales manager the next day and smiled at the sales guy who could have gotten the sale himself if he wasn't trying to hose me.

He'll get half the commission if you gave him your contact information. That's how it works.

[FairyChatMom]

My daughter recently ordered a new car - it'll be her first purchase/finance, and after shopping on line, she knew exactly what she wanted. On her own, she stopped at a dealership to look at the car and get a test drive - unfortunately they didn't have the 5-speed, but she still liked what she saw of the vehicle. A couple of weeks later, she and I were running errands, and we stopped at a different dealership - they had the 5-speed, but wrong color and not with the options she wanted. Still, she got to drive it.

The salesguy (a young n00b) did the "What will it take to get you to buy today?" and she told him exactly what color and what options she wanted. He checked, but no one had that car. We asked about placing an order, then thanked him and left. All he knew of her was her name and address, as he'd made a copy of her license before the test drive.

Later that afternoon, she got a text from him. :confused: How the heck did he get her cell number?? Anyway, he was back with "What will it take to get you to buy?" and she repeated exactly what she'd told him before. He came back with several other cars, none of which met her requirements. She finally quit responding to him.

Just for kicks, I went on line and did an internet sales inquiry thru our credit union which was then referred to the first dealership she'd visited. The internet sales manager called me and I explained what my daughter was looking for. The day after her loan was approved, we went to order the car, getting her exactly what she wanted for exactly what the credit union agreement said. We're just waiting for the car to be delivered. Interestingly, they didn't want any money down - the car is popular enough that they'll be able to sell it anyway.

When it arrives, if they try to pull any crap on her with the price, she'll walk. She has a car that works, mostly, and she has a budget which works with the price quoted and the loan from the credit union. So she's in a good position. I have no reason to believe they'll jerk her around, but since I'm cosigning the loan (so she could get a better rate based on my credit score) there will be no jerking. Period.

But, yeah, the old school n00b just left her shaking her head, along with annoying the crap out of her for texting her. I'd have been pissed - I have to pay for ever text I get.

[YogSosoth]

I wish people would stop with this whole car buying charade. Dealers need to just put a sticker price on it and leave it at that. Buyers should not try to haggle. It should be like buying a can of soda at the market, either pay the price or find somewhere else

[Kyla]

I hope I never live someplace where I have to own a car again. Expense aside, the purchasing process is so mindblowingly obnoxious, I just never want to deal with it, ever again.

[Long Time First Time]

Another way to make the Internet work for you is to go to the manufacturer's web site, see what promotions are available, and print them out. In my experience, the dealer is either unaware of a lot of these, or they're "unaware" (wink wink) of a lot of these.

That's a scam too. The last time I was looking for a used car, I did my research on Cars.com and found 5 cars at local dealerships that met my criteria. All 5 were bargains as near as I could tell (I'm no expert but they prices were lower than comparable models) Four of the five had "just been sold" when I visited the dealer but they had many other nice cars they'd be happy to show me.

What are the odds? Basically they use great deals on internet sits to bait and switch you onto the lot.

[BoBettie]

Ya know they put that Tru-Coat on right at the factory....

[pullin]

There's a new game in town, though, and when the old school dealerships get tired of watching potential customers walk out the door because they've insulted the customer's intelligence, those dealerships might learn the new rules.

Or go out of business.

Agreed. If my experience is an indicator, they're learning it pretty well. We bought a new Corolla Monday night and it was a pleasant experience dealing with polite professionals. No BS, no unexpected add-ons in the contract. No surprises. The salesman went right to his bottom price (which was lower than I had hoped) and we bought it. The treatment we got from other dealers (as we shopped) was equally pleasant.

I've bought 3 new cars from this particular salesman in the last 5 years. He's figured out the value of repeat business.

[Frank]

When I bought my new Hyundai last year, I was credited with about $1000 more than my top-line estimate for my eight-year-old Saturn. A month or so later, I got a letter from the city of St. Louis that my Saturn had been towed and impounded. I can only assume that the dealership abandoned it.

My new policy is to only shop for cars in the evening, after dark, and to wash, vacuum, and clear out my personal stuff from my trade-in that very day.

I'd advise casting a gimlet eye on the service department while you're buying. Is it somewhere you can stand to sit for a couple of hours every three months or so? Is the coffeepot burned dry? And so on. A clue for this dealership should have been that it was obviously recently remodeled - all the offices were fresh and beautiful. The service waiting area was a few chairs in a hallway where it was impossible to read because of the TV blasting.

I go somewhere else for service now.

[SmartAleq]

The last time I got that "So, what'll it take to get you into this car today?" line I gave a huge shit eatin' grin and said, "Well, fetch out the title, the keys and a crisp hundred dollar bill and I'll be outta here in no time!" Salesman gave his very best gaffed fish impression and fumfuh'd and finally came up with, "wut?" So I grinned even bigger and said, "Well, you wanted to know and I told you--were you not listening when I told you I was just looking?" Yeah, that got me a whole half hour uninterrupted browsing time.

[Chefguy]

I wish people would stop with this whole car buying charade. Dealers need to just put a sticker price on it and leave it at that. Buyers should not try to haggle. It should be like buying a can of soda at the market, either pay the price or find somewhere else

Saturn did it and it worked pretty well. But, since dealer prices are completely arbitrary, why would you pay somebody several thousand dollars more than something is worth? It would be one thing if the manufacturers set the price, but the dealers? No thanks.

[DrDeth]

You don't even have to go through that if you bring a KBB with you. My point is that knowledge was available before the internet and that didn't stop salesman from playing the game that is part of the custom in the U.S. Salesman are doing what salesman have always done and haggling is still part of the game. Again, IME, I've seen no indication that there's a new game in town as far as there being an end to haggling; the dealerships are still "old school" in that regard.

Lynn's right, you're wrong. Especially as you mentioned "KBB" aka Kelly Blue Book, which has about zero credibility nowadays. Either use NADA or Edmunds.com. KBB is now mostly used by car salesmen and insurance adjusters to show you bogus values.

Some cites:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/savinganddebt/saveonacar/p139661.asp
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2001/08/27/028259.html
"Well our long standing argument that the used car prices in Kelley Blue Book are not unbiased, but unfairly tipped in the dealers favor, has been endorsed by the admission that appears in an article in the Money Making Minutes column which appears in this weeks Ward’s Dealer Business magazine. The publishers of The Auto Channel believe that this boondoggle is so pervasive and far reaching, that consumers should be alerted to what is really going on, to that end we are re-publishing the article in its entirety...here it is.

The Article has been submitted by ASTN and is titled "Show Your Trade-in Customers the Facts":

“Many customers are now doing homework on the Internet prior to coming in to negotiate for a purchase. Most have visited an on-line service to get an invoice and to get a feel for what their trade is worth. But it is amazing that people seem to believe everything to get off the ‘net’ (sic). The information has legitimacy simply because it came from the computer! In trying to determine how to work with these folks and still preserve a reasonable gross, some dealer personnel have discovered that the Internet can actually work for them on occasion.

When working a deal that involves a trade-in, appraise the trade in the normal course of the deal. However, now, before serving up a trade allowance, go to the ‘net and log on to www.kbb.com (Kelley Blue Book). Pull off the information regarding the trade-in value for the customer’s car. More often than not, KBB values are more conservative than your appraisals. When that happens, simply present the KBB value to the customer. It is a value from an impartial authority straight off the Internet. Customers have trouble refuting these values, and many times you are able to secure the trade for hundreds of dollars lower than the value at which it is eventually booked.”

Well there it is…Buyer Beware! When a dealer employs the Kelley Blue Book used car values, run out of the showroom as quickly as you can and do some more research before you really get screwed…...…but check and compare valuations before you accept Kelley Blue Book’s prejudiced low trade-in value or inflated high retail value.

As a dealer friend of mine said… “ Only the sharks use this book” …but hey, there sure have been a lot of shark attacks these past few months…always be wary of smiling people thumping a Blue Book."

Note that in no way am I saying that the publishers of KBB are doing anything crooked.

[x-ray vision]

Lynn's right, you're wrong. Especially as you mentioned "KBB" aka Kelly Blue Book, which has about zero credibility nowadays. Either use NADA or Edmunds.com. KBB is now mostly used by car salesmen and insurance adjusters to show you bogus values.
What was I wrong about that Lynn was right about? You realize my point wasn't about the validity of KBB and would have been the same had I used NADA instead, right?

[Cat Whisperer]

<snip> Basically they use great deals on internet sits to bait and switch you onto the lot.
That's what I found, too - I'd see a great car online, and it was never there on the lot. Jerks.

[gravitycrash]

Follow up on the OP: We did buy from the competitor Toyota dealership, but emailed them first. Aha! Got a much better price than we'd been quoted at any of the "brick 'n' mortar" showrooms.

Although when we got to the dealership, we were told that the price was much higher.

When we explained that "Greg" (not his real name) (his real name was Jake Shimansky) at their dealership had quoted us a price that was better than what the salesperson had, said Olde School Polyester Shirt With Clip-On Tie Good Ol' Boy rolled his eyes (yes, he rolled his eyes in front of the customers): "Well, those internet guys, they don't really fight for the best price, they just give a single price". Followed by an "I just don't get it" shrug.

We asked to talk to "the internet guy", and bought a car from him. He didn't push "options" or "Sport Rallye" packages on us, and encouraged us to save a bundle by going all-manual: transmission, locks, and windows (which my daughter's friends are baffled by!).

I'm not trying to rain on your parade digs but the reason you got a good price for the no frills car is because hardly anybody wants a no frills car anymore.

No power windows? No power locks? *looks in disbelief*

I'm with you though. I'm perfectly fine with fewer options to save some money. As long as it has AC I'm good.

[digs]

Like I said, the daughter's Upper Middle Class friends also *look in disbelief* when they want to roll down the window.

And we have to go back and lock the door of any guests that ride in our car, because they've gotten out of the habit of manually locking a car door in the last decade or so.

But we do have AC. Anyone else remember when cars didn't? Those lonnnnnng hot car rides in the family station wagon (with the kids rolling around the "Way Back" with no seat belts)?

[Lynn Bodoni]

But we do have AC. Anyone else remember when cars didn't? Those lonnnnnng hot car rides in the family station wagon (with the kids rolling around the "Way Back" with no seat belts)? Yep, I remember those days. My sister and I had long hair (this was in the 60s), and my parents would drive from Texas to Massachusetts in the summertime, to spend time with my dad's family. Every night, my sister and I would try to comb out our hair, gently. This was in the days before conditioners/creme rinses were viewed as essential grooming items, too, which made it even more fun.

And yes, I remember when seat belts were OPTIONAL.

[Xema]

... we actually encountered a car salesman who talked only to my husband (we made it clear that the car was for me). He'd ask my husband a question, I'd answer it...
I had something of the opposite experience 11 years ago (last time I bought a new vehicle). One of the (fiftyish) salesman's early inquiries was whether I was married or had a live-in girlfriend (no and no at that time).

I asked him why he was interested in this - could I not buy on my own? He answer: "Buddy, if there was a woman in your life, it'd be a waste of your time and mine to talk without her here. Trust me, I've seen this - women know how to veto a purchase they don't like or have been left out of."

[digs]

... we actually encountered a car salesman who talked only to my husband (we made it clear that the car was for me). He'd ask my husband a question, I'd answer it...
I had something of the opposite experience 11 years ago (last time I bought a new vehicle). One of the (fiftyish) salesman's early inquiries was whether I was married or had a live-in girlfriend (no and no at that time).

I asked him why he was interested in this - could I not buy on my own? He answer: "Buddy, if there was a woman in your life, it'd be a waste of your time and mine to talk without her here. Trust me, I've seen this - women know how to veto a purchase they don't like or have been left out of."

I wouldn't call it opposite. It's still sexist. As evidenced by making assumptions based on someone's gender.

[Xema]

It's still sexist. As evidenced by making assumptions based on someone's gender.
Well, for all we know he had the exact same view of dealing with a wife whose husband wasn't present.

[BigT]

I prefer phrases like "reverse sexism" to be used when someone is being discriminatory of someone they assume is a sexist. "Reverse sexism" would be if you assumed that all men were sexist against women.

[FairyChatMom]

<snip> I asked him why he was interested in this - could I not buy on my own? He answer: "Buddy, if there was a woman in your life, it'd be a waste of your time and mine to talk without her here. Trust me, I've seen this - women know how to veto a purchase they don't like or have been left out of."I had a similar conversation with a replacement window salesman. I wanted him to come over and give me a quote. He refused to schedule with only me, because my husband might not like the choices I make - as if I was going to sign a contract without discussing it with the other member of the household... :rolleyes:

Gee, Mr. Salesguy, maybe it's not this battle of the sexes thing, maybe it's that you're selling overpriced crap??