Bigots tick me off!

[manhattan]

You know, today is a beautiful day in NYC, sunny but not humid, the kind of day that brings a smile even to my curmudgeonly face. So after getting a paper and breakfast, I go back to the apartment, do some tidying up, pay some bills, and grab a few clubs to go to the driving range.

And right around the corner are about a dozen anti-gay demonstrators. Fred Phelps’ organization, GodHatesFags, or whatever the heck he calls it, was demonstrating against the fact that the Stonewall Tavern was named a national landmark. "Gays can’t repent," "Sinners Die" the whole hate-filled smorgasbord of garbage. Even had a sign implying that Matthew Shepherd had it coming.

There were only a dozen of them, and about 200 counter-demonstrators (including me, as soon as I figured out it wasn’t a movie shoot). But it pissed me off! Damn did it piss me off!

Since the NYC police would have objected to me using my 5-iron on them, I've decided to rant here.

Go back to Kansas, you vile bringers of hatred and ugliness! If by some razor-thin chance you are right about how God views people, than God can kiss my ass! Go spread your hate among your science-challenged brethren back in Topeka. No wonder Brown v. Board came out of your backwards state, you proofs that evolution isn’t universal! Keep it out of my neighborhood! Go see Cats like normal tourists!

You spineless insults to humanity wouldn’t have lasted 10 seconds without the NYPD. The actual counter-demonstrators would not have hurt you, because they are experienced at this and advocate non-violence. But about a dozen passers-by and me would have. That’s right, I was perfectly willing to ruin a nearly-new golf club just to make your faces look as ugly as your hearts!

And Fred Phelps wasn’t even there! If the people I asked were correct, it’s because he’s too sick with some horrible disease. Good! Die slowly in excruciating pain, you sicko!

Thank you.

------------------
Livin' on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[pldennison]

If Fred Phelps dies, I am going to find every homosexual in Lakewood, Ohio (and there are more than a few) and picket his funeral so fucking fast his sickening followers won't know what hit them.

[ChrisCTP]

Right on, Manhattan!

That goes for all you piece-of-shit bastards who think you're better than someone because you're white, straight, God-fearin' and male. Fuck all y'all! I get so sick of hearing that "we should just haul all the (blacks/gays/Jews/whatever) out to an island and burn 'em up!" Maybe the rest of us, you know, the more evolved and intelligent members of the human RACE, should do that to you. Only we wouldn't burn you. We'd cart over crates of mosquitos and you could all suffer the itching and scratching and each others stupid hatred and bickering and demonstrating until you just couldn't stand it anymore and then you'd end up killing yourselves off. FUCKING FABULOUS!!!

Piss off and choke on your own bile, you dick-brained morons.

------------------
Veni, Vidi, Visa ... I came, I saw, I bought.

[LongHrn99]

Cool it Christ, I'm white, I'm male, I'm straight, I'm God fearing, and I think those guys are assholes. I get furious when I see those people doing it in the name of God. But watch that you don't turn into them. It's easy to denounce them, but it's difficult to accept them the way you feel they should accept everyone else.

------------------
"There are many sweeping generalizations that are always true" -Space Ghost

[manhattan]

You know what? To Hell with accepting them. If they quietly sat in their undereducated, inbred households and privately believed whatever misguided, hateful garbage their little tiny hearts told them to, I could live with it. I don’t even care if they believe that some behavior or another offends their evil notion of God.

But when they come by my neighborhood and accuse my neighbors of starting AIDS, when they put up signs instructing me to hate my neighbors, when they stand outside of a neighborhood tavern and spew their vile chants, when they see the murder a young man as a boon of some sort, I say to Hell with them. They want hate, I got it in excess! They want a war? I’ll win!

I hope each and every one of the participants in today’s exercise in bigotry gets encephalitis. Further, I hope they get a few spare mosquito eggs in their luggage and give encephalitis to each and every one of their fellow-travelers.

In fact, what hotel are they staying at?

[Globe-trotter]

Phelps' bunch was up in Ottawa a couple of weeks ago, burning the Canadian flag because the government decided to give benefits to same-sex couples.

Phelps, mind your own business!

I can't believe Phelps has been allowed to breed! They should have sterilized him after he was lobotomized.

------------------
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
Alexandre Dumas the Younger (1824-1895)

[ChrisCTP]

Cool it Christ, I'm white, I'm male, I'm straight, I'm God fearing

Ah, but do you think you are superiour to someone who does not claim (or is not able to) one or more of those particular features? No. That is why you, and others like you, were not included in my rant, which specifically said:

"That goes for all you piece-of-shit bastards who think you're better than someone because you're white, straight, God-fearin' and male."

BTW, I'll forgive your mistake in addressing me as "Christ". True, that is half my name, but "Chris" (or "Bitch", if you're so inclined) will do just fine.

------------------
Veni, Vidi, Visa ... I came, I saw, I bought.

[LongHrn99]

Oops, didn't even realize that I spelled that wrong.

------------------
"There are many sweeping generalizations that are always true" -Space Ghost

[matt_mcl]

Phelps has ceased to annoy me. He now amuses me. This is because he and all of his family will eventually be dead. But there will always be gays and lesbians.

He's my favourite argument in favour of free speech. The freer he can speak, the more of an asshole he will be perceived as.

Mr. Phelps, if you are reading this, I just want you to know that God loves you, even though you break people's hearts, persecute the downtrodden, and offend Him with your presumptuous and erroneous assumptions. I personally don't believe that homosexual behavior is right, but I would be HORRIFIED if someone picketed my relative's funeral just because he had a weakness in that area. Might as well picket a person for having been sexually abused as a child, IMHO. I can see your new web site now: www.godhatesvictims.com (http://www.godhatesvictims.com) . Or maybe just www.godhateseveryonewhoisn'tnamedFredPhelps.com. (http://www.godhateseveryonewhoisn'tnamedFredPhelps.com.)

[Ursula]

To the originator of this topic, Manhatan.( sorry for the possible spelling error)

I am also sorry for the rage and hatred that you feel. Do you honestly believe that YOU are the only person whose person/ideology is denounced and persecuted? Welcome the the United States 20th century.
Get over it. As long as you support a so-called "alternative life-style" you and yours will be disciminated against. It is a part of life. Rage and violence is never the answer. Look back in our country's history and you will find out other groups who were as persecuted as you feel you are. However, with perseverence, adaptability, and NOT violence, anger and rage, society has made changes. Assimilation, my friend is the key. Fit in, don't make such a big show of your orientation. THAT is what pisses people off! I, as a(n) heterosexual do not live my life because of my sexual orientation. If you insist on doing so, then you are opening yourself up for a world of trouble.

[manhattan]

You know what, Ursula? I’ll say this as clearly as I think I can. Eat My Shorts.

First, FTR and not that it matters, I am what is called “straight but not narrow.” This is among the first of many incorrect assumptions you make in your post.

Second, as I said in my friggin’ post I don’t care if the undereducated, narrow-minded bigots choose to hate in the privacy of their evil inbred homes. What pissed me off was the display of hatred, especially across the street from a place recognized as the site of the birth of the gay rights movement.

Third, there are lots of people who are good at the whole “perseverance, adaptability” thing. Most of the counter-protestors were among them. Not me. My preference is reason and non-violence, but I don’t limit myself. I can (and will) answer hate with hate and violence with violence. And I’m better at it.

Fourth, assimilation can kiss my ass in Macy’s window. In East Backwater, Kansas it may make sense for some sop to assimilation (or at least deference to local customs) at the very beginning, but only as a tactic. These throwbacks were in Greenwich Village! For them, it was an away game! Assimilation is their job, not mine. There is no more “big show” of gay orientation in the Village than there is of straight orientation in any mall in the country.

Fifth, no one I have ever met lives his/her “life because of (one’s) sexual orientation.” But when a bunch of alleged people come and wish violence on my neighbors because of that orientation, I’m sure as hell going to call them on it.

Sixth, these cowards, as I stated in my OP, were there protesting solely because of our wonderful Constitution and the protections it affords, which, despite my vitriol, I support. Matt_mcl’s view was more representative at the counter-protest than was mine, and at the end of the day they were right. But Fred and his fellow-travelers might be interested to know that not all “liberals” favor gun control. You know what I’m saying?

Seventh, “manhattan” is the name of a relatively large borough in the City of New York. Learn to spell it our skulk out of your college town. Or at least cut and paste. You also missed “discriminated,” “perseverance” and a double “the.”

Finally, you say that I’m “opening (myself) up for a world of trouble.” Bring it on. Combined, my friends and I possess the intellectual, legal and physical firepower to win.

[Kryptonite]

them be fightin words =D

you talk really tough and i dont really disagree with you but i think you should chill, you arent the toughest person on earth.

i might not agree with a gay persons life style but these people are nice peaceful citizens...they might go to hell but thats their problem and i always treat them with the upmost respect. I keep my beliefs to those who actually give a rats ass and i never press it on anybody...there are so many problems on this planet and if hatred for a gay person or a persons ethnic backround wasnt around things would be a lot easier...these people (gay bashers) would rather sit next to a serial killer than a gay person it seems. A serial killer can be a born again christian but a gay person aint forgiven? FUCK YOU!

[Satan]

We all know about the Jenny Jones incident. That showed that for some people, it is worse to be thought of as gay than to be known as being a murderer.

I think Freud is an asshole, but when he sprouted on (and I think it was him who said this) about how homophobic folks are almost always simply repressing gay thoughts in their own head, and a self-loathing of this makes them go to extremes, I have to hope him right.

The thought that Phelps secretly desires showtunes and interior decorating makes me smile!

------------------
Yer pal,
Satan

[WallyM7]

Satan, you are right . It was Freud who made that claim. In fact he invented the concept of repression. But that dork was wrong about practically everything, so your hope has little hope of being the reality. Pity.

Why do we call them "homophobes", anyway? It's such a long word. What's wrong with "morons", "cretins", or even "scum"?
Less chance of misspelling and just as accurate, doncha think?

Don't even consider Neanderthals. You have to capitilize it, and I wouldn't give the assholes the honor.

BTW, I'm white and straight. Big fucking deal! (I'm not afraid of God, though. I'll take him on, any time, any place. That goes for his kid, too).



------------------
You are unique - Just like everyone else.

Wally, I gotta disagree with you re "homophobes" -- calling them 'scum', etc., really isn't more accurate; I've encountered scads of scumbags, etc., who still weren't homophobes. Actually, etymologically, the neologism means "fearful of man/men", and I guess you could technically apply that to a lot of women (and refer to a lot of guys as 'gynephobes' or 'femmephobes'), but that's another thread)). But as a linguistic 'shorthand', I think it's about the best we'll do.

P.S. == Ursula, to say that 'rage and violence is never the answer' is to be simpleminded. They are always an answer, just not necessarily the best. I've long subscribed to Eugene V. Debs admonition,(paraphrased though): "Whenever injustice or repression are encountered, the only polite from of response is attack."

P.P.S. - Manhattan: May I suggest, a sand wedge, rather than a five iron? And, don't forget your oldest, most split and rough-cut shagging balls, either -- perfect for ramming up the rectum and highly instructive!

[pldennison]

Get over it. As long as you support a so-called "alternative life-style" you and yours will be disciminated against.

Is that a promise or a threat? This is the statement of a true ignoramus.

Rage and violence is never the answer.

Too bad the people who agree with what you said above don't know that. Witness much gay-on-straight violence lately? I sure haven't.

Fit in, don't make such a big show of your orientation. THAT is what pisses people off!

Yeah! How dare homosexuals want to kiss each other or hold hands in public like straight people do? Or keep pictures of their partners on their desks at work? How ostentatious! Who the hell do they think they are?

Tell me, Ursula, if you threw a party for all your co-workers, and invited their spouses/significant others, and someone showed up with a same-sex partner, would you consider that "flaunting their orientation"? Would you let them stay?

I, as a(n) heterosexual do not live my life because of my sexual orientation.

Neither do they, mostly, but I bet you do more than you think you do.

If you insist on doing so, then you are opening yourself up for a world of trouble.

Is that a promise or a threat?

[VegForLife]

Actually, etymologically, the neologism means "fearful of man/men"
Could you break that down for us?

Rich

[manhattan]

Kryptonite, who really ought to be doing homework, sez: i think you should chill, you arent the toughest person on earth.True. But I'm plenty tough. And mean. And if necessary, I have plenty of help.

Kryptonite further opined:they might go to hellIf so, I want to join them. I refuse to associate with a God who thinks that way.

And further self-contradicted:I keep my beliefs to those who actually give a rats ass and i never press it on anybodyExcept on a message board with thousands of readers, I suppose. Oh well, thanks at least for showing civility in more traditional public forums and for your excellent analogy. I'll return the favor. There are "shift" keys conveniently located next to the "z" and the question mark.

Dif suggests: a sand wedge, rather than a five iron? And, don't forget your oldest, most split and rough-cut shagging balls, either -- perfect for ramming up the rectum and highly instructive!Indeed. But practical problems arise. First, my wedge is a brand new Cleveland non-chromed (try it - best extra $20 I've ever spent!), while my irons are just last year's crappy Nicklaus Air-Bears. Gotta conserve the dough, ya know! Second, I'm afraid that the loft on the wedge would sever an artery, delivering death before much suffering can set in. Finally, with my slice I'd probably hit a counter-protester. Gotta work on that… ;)

PLDennison posts with a masterpiece, and I respond: Damn, it's good to have the experienced flamers down here with me.

Finally, my attorney sez:What, are you fuckin' nuts?He lurks. Who knew?

So for the record, my comment that "not all 'liberals' favor gun control" and the five-iron thing were general observation, do not necessarily apply to your humble poster, and for all people I know would become operative only in response to a specific threat of specifically imminent specific violence. Happy now?

[Kryptonite]

manhattan you are wrong. this is a place we all share our ideas, i dont go onto the street to people walking to the subway and tell em how i hate gays and such. also i said "they might go to hell", i have no say or belief on that point. and stop making fun of my grammar, i can make it better, but i wont (i dont use the delete key, it broke off)
whats a keyboard?

[tomndebb]

Now, now, Rich. Just because anyone with a smattering of Greek knows that homophobe means "fear of milk mixed with cream," you don't have to call him out on it.

(For the dictionary impaired: homo (as in Homo sapiens) is Latin for "man" ; homo (as in homogeneity) is Greek for "same." Since -phobe is from the Greek for "fear," we generally use Greek stems to indicate what we fear: ailuraphobia, not feliphobia or cattusphobia. Exceptions to the rule against mixing Greek and Latin tend to be examples of horror in their own right: e.g., tele-vision.)

------------------
Tom~

[TVeblen]

Damn right on all counts and all points, Manhattan.
Bigots are weaklings and bullies who choose to hate BECAUSE THEY ENJOY IT.
They deserve every bit of contempt and anger going. The bigots who wrap their evil in religion--any religion--are damned by their own standards. Since I come from a predominantly Christian background, the extremist "bigots for God" disgust me the most, because I have the most complete context in which to place them.
They're shits, complete and total shits.
Hate is wrong, period and full stop. The Bible is quite clear on the prohibition against judging others. In the basis of their own loudly proclaimed faith, the bigots are not only trespassing against their fellow beings, they are usurping the authority of the God they claim to love and serve.They flagrantly pervert the very standards they claim to uphold.
Apologies for the rant, but this ignites my rarely triggered anger. For whatever it's worth, I recently read a wonderful article by a faithful Muslim, defending the REALITY of his faith against the perceptions it has accumulated. (Complete this phrase: Islamic ____. Probably "extremist" or "terrorist", right?)
Well, any good can be perverted into evil by evil people. And yes, I do believe that bigots are evil. Evil exists and bigots choose to serve it, no matter the rationalization they employ. And they deserve every bit of contempt and shunning decent people can invoke.
Grrrrrrr.

[Temujin]

Assimilation, my friend is the key. Fit in ...
Thanks for the advice, Hitler.

[Konrad]

What pisses me off are those damned anti-bigots. They are so hypocritical, they are bigoted against bigots. So basically they hate themselves. You know who you are.

So what if I choose to have prejudiced beliefs about groups of people based on stereotypes? Do I not have the right to do this? If someone suggests killing all the blacks/jews/gays there's a big fuss, but when someone says let's kill all the bigots people cheer them on, and don't even realize the hypocricy.

And don't give me this crap about "you choose to be bigoted". You can choose to be muslim too, but being anti-muslim is not PC.

How can someone feel self-righteous saying "I hate bigots"? Wow, it must take some real bravery to do that. Why not just stand on the street yelling "Status Quo! Status Quo!".

I hope you people have understood what I'm trying to say. Actually I don't care if didn't. This is the BBQ Pit, so flame away ya ass-bandits!

[Rysdad]

I was born and raised in Minnesota--The Land of Left of Liberal. My relatives, on the other hand, live in Alabama and are still fighting the Civil War.
The last time I was in New York, there was a big gay parade alongside Central Park. I watched for a while, and then the Dykes on Bikes group came by, on foot, blowing whistles, and yelling "Come on out!" One of them beckoned to me, and what the hell, I joined her.
My friend took a picture of me walking arm-in-arm down Central Park West with the biggest, meanest butch dyke you've ever seen.
I should send a copy to Birmingham.
I was going to add here what my sexual orientation is, but it doesn't matter.

[TVeblen]

Good move, Konrad.
Really original.
Poor, put-upon bigots, another "victim" group that wants to stomp on other people's rights with no cause but still piously retain respect.

It's really hard to put simple concepts into language even you could understand. Let's see if I can translate this into broad outlines even you can understand:

You have opinions.
Boom rah-rah.
Everyone does.
Those opinions don't have to be based on anything.
Your opinions can be based only on hate and unreason.
Those opinoins reflect on ONLY on you.
Other people don"t have to agree with your opinions.
If you try to force your opinions on other people, they can disagree.
If you try to impose your opinions onto others lives, they can consider you an unreasoning, arrogant, marginal sociopath.
They will hate your guts.

Now, is there some part of this that has exceeded your too-obvious limited rational abilities?

Sigh. Let me translate into terms even you may (possibly) understand: you punch people, expect to be punched back.

Cordially, your enemy,
Veb

[manhattan]

Konrad manages to look up from his navel lint long enough to spew:What pisses me off are those damned anti-bigots. They are so hypocritical, they are bigoted against bigots. So basically they hate themselves. You know who you are.This may be the most incoherent statement ever converted to ones and zeroes, but it does contain a kernel of truth. Yes, I am bigoted against bigots. But no, I do not hate myself. I hate you. All clear?

So what if I choose to have prejudiced beliefs about groups of people based on stereotypes? Do I not have the right to do this?Yes, you do, in this country, have the right to be a bigoted Neanderthal jerk. You do not have the right to do anything about it. As the first, oh, 20 or so posts should have made clear, it's no skin off my back if you want to sit around with your sister and wife and say to her, "Honey, ya know, I really don't cotton to them thar homosexuals." Come out of the house and say it, and I hate you. Come to my neighborhood and say it, and I'll hate you to your face

And don't give me this crap about "you choose to be bigoted". You can choose to be muslim too, but being anti-muslim is not PC.Here's some more "crap" for you. If you choose to be a bigot, I hate you. If a follower of Islam chooses a bigot, I hate him too. Like many religions, Islam proscribes homosexuality. So Muslims do not engage in homosexual activity. They do not march around in front of gay bars condemning non-followers to death.

How can someone feel self-righteous saying "I hate bigots"? Wow, it must take some real bravery to do that. Why not just stand on the street yelling "Status Quo! Status Quo!".I take it back. Your first statement was not the most incoherent statement ever converted to ones and zeroes.

I hope you people have understood what I'm trying to say. Actually I don't care if didn't. This is the BBQ Pit, so flame away ya ass-bandits!Ass-bandits? I understood all too well, breeder-boy. Enough to know that I hate you. Stay out of my neighborhood. And out of everyone else's neighborhood, too. Now return to your belly-button lint.

------------------
Livin' on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[neuro-trash grrrl]

I have to say, I agree with matt_mcl about Phelps. Let him stand on the street corners of America, spewing his vile excrement. Let him run for Congress, if he wants. It will be the best thing that ever happened to the gay-rights movement, I guarantee it. Freedom of speech. Ain't it great?

P.S. Fuck you, Fred Phelps. I can exercise my freedom of speech, too. Probably better than Mr. Phelps can.

[Konrad]

TVeb: Man, you missed the point entirely.

[Konrad]

Manhattan: Thanks for proving my point. You are the perfect example of what I was saying. You condemn your very own actions, and with such ferocity too.

You condemn bigotry because it is based on unthinking hatred, ignorance and steretyping instead of reason. Well that is the exact same thing you are doing.

See, I am bigoted against people who have strong opinions about things they know nothing about. But do try to understand me or reason with me? No, you hate me based on ignorance and stereotyping. "All those bigots are the same".

--------
You said: "They do not march around in front of gay bars condemning non-followers to death."
---------

Did I even say I go out on marches or anything like that? No, your hatred is based on the same unreasoning aggression as any other bigotry.

I don't even how you can care so much about this. You seem to be really angry that someone is disagreeing with you. You really have to show what an upstanding citizen you are by going all out against bigotry. Gimmie a break. Hypocritical.

[TVeblen]

Oooh-kaayyy,

Translation time...
Konrad: you're a fool, which is not uncommon, but you are also pedantic, weak, pettifogging, vicious misguided fool.

Now try to keep up...

There's hate based on weakness, insecuity and fear.
It's a cheap shot.
It's based on weaknesses and human frailty projected onto others.
Look up "scapegoat", for starters.
Then there is the richly earned, human, civil and moral CONTEMPT decent people heap on predacious persons who gladly, of their own free will, prey on people who aren't exactly like themselves.

If your're still with me--which I doubt--then do try to make a distinction b/w hate based on ignorance and fear, and, yes, hate based on cheap choices made for evil, cowardly reasons.

Choose to be a bigot?
Dead meat, chump.
You bet I hate your ass.
Now why is it again I should respect, tolerate or suffer bigots?

Your behavior...live w/ the consequences.
And yeah, I got the point.

You're a sociopath. Go whine somewhere else, junior.

Still your enemy, and proud of it,
Veb

[andros]

Konrad. Yes, I'm a hypocrite. I'm a bigot and I dislike bigotry. I'm highly prejudiced against gay-bashers, for example, and I really groove on people who share that belief.

I realize I shouldn't think less of folks who hate gays (or Asians, or Muslims, or whatever), but it's just so much fun!

If you choose to hate someone you don't know, go for it. If you tell me fags are going to hell, I'll let you say it. I'll respect it.

But I'll still think you're the lowest form of flaggelate ever to course the recesses of a titmouse's colon. It'll be nothing personal.

-andros-

------------------
"Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

Konrad, am I understanding you? You seem to be saying that to hate hatemongers is as wrong as being a hatemonger yourself; are you saying we (speaking generically of all human society) have no choice to accept bigotry without opposition?

Or are you saying that do so is like the fundamentalists who insist "we hate the sin {of homosexuality}, but not the sinner. So, when we oppose laws to make beating someone to death for no other reason than their sexual orientation, it's not because we hate gays, we just hate being gay"?

[Konrad]

If your're still with me--which I doubt--then do try to make a distinction b/w hate based on ignorance and fear, and, yes, hate based on cheap choices made for evil, cowardly reasons.

You're very right. And your hate of me is based on ingorance and fear. You hate me without even knowing what I am bigoted against. That is ignorance.

Let's see if I can make this any clearer to you. We'll take your words and use them as any other bigot, like yourself, would:

Choose to be a muslim?
Dead meat, chump.
You bet I hate your ass.
Now why is it again I should respect, tolerate or suffer muslims?

Hmm... Does that sound like a contempt based on logic and reason? Nope, just like any other bigotry.

Like I said, I'm bigoted against people who have strong opinions on things they know nothing about. Of course, you mistook me as some sort of hick white supremacist because your opinion of me is based on stereotypes. So you hate me for the same reason any bigot hates others.

You are bigoted against bigots. Therefore you are a hypocrite.

[Konrad]

DIF: That's not what I'm saying at all. I was saying that a person who hates... ok well, let me give an example. That will be be simpler.

Let's say person A is raised in early America as a slave owner and is taught that all black people are subhuman criminals. "A"'s hate of black people is not based on logic but simple on ingrained beliefs.

Let's say person B is raised in modern America and is taught that all bigots are subhuman criminals. "B"'s hate of bigots is not based on logic but on simple ingrained beliefs.

What's the difference between person A & B? To me there is none. Both hold their beliefs only because they want to conform to the ideas common at the time.

It's one thing to say I don't like this one particular person because he is a bigot. His beliefs are based on this and this, and this is clearly illogical. But to make this huge blanket statement is ridiculous.

How can anyone have such a strong, aggressive, fiery hate of a group of people, such as manhattan has against bigots? Only through ignorance. Did you see how aggressive some of the posts adressed to me were? How can you hate someone that much without knowing them at all? Only through ignorance and stereotyping.

One of my best friends in high school would sometimes tell me "We should send all the faggots to an island and nuke it". Just because I don't agree with some of his beliefs doesn't mean I have to regard him as some sort of animal. He's a bigot and I like him. To charactarize one group of people in such a way means that you most be completely ignorant. Because once you meet one person from a group you like you can no longer say all people from that group are, without exception, loathsome.

So, in short, what I'm saying is that it pisses me off when people complain about bigotry/racism/whatever when they're no better than the people they're complaining about. They're using the same arguments against bigots as the bigots are using against whatever group they don't like. Under different circumstances it would be those same people having those beliefs.

Actually there might be a difference. Those marchers manhattan wrote about at least had the courage to say something that was unpopular. They may have been using illogical arguments, but that's only stupid. Using illogical arguments to support an accepted idea is stupid and pointless.

That's why you don't see people marching on the streets with signs saying "Status quo!".

[Konrad]

DIF: I just realized I didn't really answer your question.

Yes, of course you can oppose views you disagree with. Just oppose them for the right reasons.

[andros]

And yours are the right reasons, of course.

-andros-

[tracer]

A while ago, one Methodist church in San Francisco held a wedding for one (or was it two?) gay couples. About 200 Methodists from other areas planned to hold a protest demonstration out in front of the San Francisco Methodist church.

BUT,

When the Methodists who planned the protest discovered that Fred Phelps' group was also going to be there protesting the weddings, they backed out! The anti-gay Methodists didn't want to be associated with Phelps' vile group. The San Francisco church ended up with a FAR SMALLER protest going on out in front of it than it would have had, if Phelps' group had not shown up.

So ... in a way, we should be thanking Jim Phelps for inadvertently increasing the social tolerance of gays. :)

------------------
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.

[WallyM7]

Konrad,

You're either playing some pedantic little game here, or you actually believe what you say.

If the former is the case, you're a moron.

If the latter, you're a menace.

[manhattan]

So ... in a way, we should be thanking Jim Phelps for inadvertently increasing the social tolerance of gays.Not to inject levity into a rant thread of my own making, but I love Jim Phelps. I hope Fred Phelps self-destructs in five seconds. :)

------------------
Livin' on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[Lawrence]

You know, Manhattan, folks from outside of Kansas might have a little bit better luck convincing folks inside Kansas of their points of view if they avoided using terms like "backward" and "science-challenged" to refer to everyone in the state. I no longer live there, and I am certainly disgusted by Fred Phelps (and I've been disgusted by him for a lot longer than you have, because ol' Fred has been in business in Kansas for many years, long before you ever heard of him). But you have to figure that there are at least a few of us native Kansans who strongly oppose Phelps's attacks on gays. In fact, I'd bet a good solid 95% of Kansas folks are sickened by Phelps and his so-called church, which is entirely made up of his family members. Don't bash Kansans. Bash Phelps.

By the way, as far as we're concerned, Manhattan is a town west of Topeka. It's east of Junction City, not far off I-70.

[manhattan]

Lawrence: I missed your post while I was away. Sorry.

Your point is well taken. Between the particular "backward" and "science-challenged" folks who invaded my neighborhood, and the equally "backward" and "science-challenged" people who somehow ended up on the School Board there, I got so mad that my angry rhetoric improperly tarred an entire state’s population for the actions of a few. I apologize for that, and I thank you for pointing it out. Consider me chastized and chastened. (Some flame, huh?)

And I’ve been to the other Manhattan. Hell of a steer they cook up there. What was the name of the big steakhouse there? It was about 15 years ago, and I’ve forgotten.

------------------
Livin' on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[RoboDude]

---------------------------------------------
When the Methodists who planned the protest discovered that Fred Phelps' group was also going to be there protesting the weddings, they backed out! The anti-gay Methodists didn't want to be associated with Phelps' vile group. The San Francisco church ended up with a FAR SMALLER protest going on out in front of it than it would have had, if Phelps' group had not shown up.
---------------------------------------------
I don't get it. A bunch of blatant homophobes back out on a protest to avoid being associated with one of their own kind? True, Phelps is more vocal about it than the average bigot, but unless he is evil for reasons other than homophobia, they aren't much less evil than he is.

---------------------------------------------
Yes, of course you can oppose views you disagree with. Just oppose them for the right reasons.
---------------------------------------------
It seems to me that all the bigot-bashing on this trhead was for the right reasons.

Konrad, just what do you know about bigots that we don't?

[Monty]

RoboDude: I think you might have erred when you referred to the protesting Methodists as "blatant homophobes." Most, if not all, of them may very well be; however, the one valid point they had is the Methodist Church proscribes gay marriages and therefore the minister (priest? clergyperson?) was in violation of the church's own rules. As my dad says, "if they want a church with different rules, start their own church!"

Fred Phelps on the other hand is definitely a blatant homophobe. Apparently the concept of "christian act" is completely foreign to him.

[speakeasy]

Konrad, I see your point but can't agree. It's just a logic game to you. Real life isn't quite so reasonable. Your attitude is guaranteed to do a back flip if and when you ever run out of luck, find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time, and end up on the receiving end of 10 pairs of waffle stompers just because you happen to be different than the crowd.

The problem with loud mouthed bigots is that they tend to draw a crowd of idiots. Too many idiots in one place is never a good thing.

There are just some people in the world who desperately deserve to have the living shit choked out of them. It's not their lifestyle, it's not the color of the skin or hair, it's not the religion. It's the weak, stupid, backstabbing, lickspittle, hatemongering things they say and do. I'm with Manhatten, all fag bashers, neo-Nazis, knee jerk fundamentalist freaks, and other assorted hate mongers can line up out the door and kiss my ass til I have chapped buns.

Don't like that? I'm gonna sing it loud and clear and in your face. Bring it on.

On a related note, my uncle was a tank driver in WWII. All he has to say about the neo-Nazis is that all of them together wouldn't make a pimple on an SS man's ass.

[Konrad]

Your attitude is guaranteed to do a back flip if and when you ever run out of luck, find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time, and end up on the receiving end of 10 pairs of waffle stompers just because you happen to be different than the crowd.

Yes, violence is usually the fastest way to change someone's opinions. However, that doesn't prove much about the validity of the opinions.

Don't like that? I'm gonna sing it loud and clear and in your face. Bring it on.

But you don't like bigots singing things loud and clear?

All he has to say about the neo-Nazis is that all of them together wouldn't make a pimple on an SS man's ass.

That might nice and all but I'm not trying to defend neo-nazis. I'm just saying a blind hatred of any group is illogical, whether they are bigots or not.

After all, the arguments that can be used against bigotry can also be used against bigotry towards bigots.

[speakeasy]

Blind? Who sez blind?

I had a good look at 'em, and took the time to listen too. Then I curled my lip.

If you are defining bigot as one who hates blindly, then I'm free and clear. I thought it over in advance. You don't get my hate for free. Oh no, you've got to earn it.

I don't hate anyone for what was handed to them by their parents/society/cash flow situation. I look at what they've done since then. It's hard enough trying to get along in this life without putting up with losers who's only message is to tear someone else down. That's a bigot.

[Konrad]

I had a good look at 'em, and took the time to listen too. Then I curled my lip.

If you are defining bigot as one who hates blindly, then I'm free and clear. I thought it over in advance. You don't get my hate for free. Oh no, you've got to earn it.

Any bigot can say the same things about those he hates.

Any there's a specific definition of bigotry, I'm not re-defining any words here.

[OpalCat]

Konrad.... you're an idiot.

I hate rapists and serial killers too... does that make me a bigot? :::rolling my eyes:::

------------------
--
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com (http://www.opalcat.com)

[Konrad]

Shit! Now I'm against a pro!

Opalcat called me an idiot AND rolled her eyes at me! If you can't win a debate with that how can you win?

I gotta say, you're really good. Some people can roll their eyes, and some people can call others idiots, but you did both IN THE SAME POST!!! Something's up!

You have done what is only hinted at, with veiled references, in underground debating manuals. The kind of manuals that are so dangerous the Hell's Angels refuse to traffic in them... The kind that are read once, and then burnt, for fear of anyone discovering their contents... These are secret techniques, thought to have dissappeared centuries ago, destroyed by the Catholic church for being too dangerous to use by mere mortals! Yet these methods were passed down secretly from master to student, always one step ahead of the authorities. Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan were knowledgeable in the ancient secrets, and used these skills to create their great empires. None could stand for long against Khan's superbly trained army of debaters! All in their path were crushed!

And now YOU wield the might weapon! How could I ever hope to stand against you?

[Homer]

Hey, now, why ya gotta dis on Kansas in the OP? Ever been out here? It's real nice. And if you'll notice, they didn't strike evolution from being taught, they just made it not mandatory. When the majority of the population doesn't believe in it, why should the teaching be mandatory? Besides, it's not like they made creationism or 'intelligent design' mandatory. All they did was open a little more room for option.

Anyway, Kansas is really a nice place. Come 'n visit. Leawood has the most $ per sq mile in the States, second only to Beverly Hills. It's a REAL nice place. Vipers, Lambos, Ferraris, Porsches, etc. etc. Not to mention Kansas City's beautiful Plaza (ever been?) and all it's fountains, scultures, and boulevards (most boulevards vs. non-divideds in the States). Missouri is gorgeous, too. I live about a mile from a hermit. Ever met a hermit in real life? Neither have I. He's a hermit (ha ha).

Sorry, but I take it up when someone gets down on my town...

I also apologize for being so corny tonite.

--Tim

------------------
We are the children of the Eighties. We are not the first "lost generation" nor today's lost generation; in fact, we think we know just where we stand - or are discovering it as we speak.

[VegForLife]

Vipers, Lambos, Ferraris, Porsches, etc.
Any Mexicans driving 'em?

Rich

[speakeasy]

==================================
Shit! Now I'm against a pro!
==================================

You were up against a pro the first time sweet cheeks.

==================================
-------------------------------------------
I had a good look at 'em, and took the time to listen too. Then I curled my lip.
If you are defining bigot as one who hates blindly, then I'm free and clear. I thought it over in advance.
You don't get my hate for free. Oh no, you've got to earn it.
-------------------------------------------

Any bigot can say the same things about those he hates.
Any there's a specific definition of bigotry, I'm not re-defining any words here.
==================================

More cutsie word games.
So far your entire argument has been; anybody who hates anybody is a bigot so it's impossible to hate bigots without hating yourself. 100% bullshit. You can do better than that .... I hope.
Keep leading with your chin, it's improving your looks.

[Konrad]

speakeasy: Look spunky, it's obvious you're either too stupid or too arrogant to have read the thread. Either that or you've experienced some sort of memory loss. What the fuck makes you think you're important enough to make me repeat my argument?

You said the same thing as everyone else that I responded too. What the hell do you want from me? A personalized response? Want me to cut and paste everything I wrote before but put your name in fron of it? If you think you're too good to go and read my responses to the exact same questions then it's not even worth my time to insult you.

[Diane]

Yo Konrad!?!?! Take a Valium, eh? You look like a hysterical spaz who needs to push himself away from the computer every once in a while. Get a grip, psycho.

If you don't want people to respond to your drivel, keep your trap shut. Not too hard of a concept, really, unless of course you don't understand the big words.

(Anyone want to place bets that he will attempt to insult me by refering to his pud or call me a dyke?)


------------------
>^,,^<
KITTEN
Please tell your pants it's not polite to point.

[Sake Samurai]

I think this has gone far enough - it seems bigotry is hated by manhattan & Wally, but I keep reading them badmouth a particular group.

No, not Kansans (lived there and it deserves it's reputation), I'm talking about Neandertals! This offshoot of humanity was quite probably smarter than our species at the time, and what do they get for all that sophistication? All that cave-dwelling and ritual-practice got them nothing but extinction and the on-going stereotype of being dumb and brutish. When will this end?

Please stop using their name in insults, like:bigoted Neanderthal jerkOK, you sons of bitches?

------------------
Hell is Other People.

[Diane]

OK, you sons of bitches?

HEY! You bad-mouthing bitches?


------------------
>^,,^<
KITTEN
Please tell your pants it's not polite to point.

[Konrad]

Diane sez:
Yo Konrad!?!?! Take a Valium, eh? You look like a hysterical spaz who needs to push himself away from the computer every once in a while. Get a grip, psycho.

I've found the fatal error in trying to have an argument with Diane. You're relying on her wit for amusement.

That got boring fast.

[SterlingNorth]

Konrad, in the rare event that you are still reading this, I remember seeing this quote from a Kurt Vonnegut Jr story.

<hr>
Intolerance was an important issue of debate between my parents. Father was of course, a good fascist, and was intolerant of just about everything, except of course, Nazi's. Mother would ask that he not bring any of the uniformed, swastika laden soldiers into her home. My father would then accuse her of gross intolerance. My mother, rather than play the semantic game, would get out a piece of paper and a pencil and begin her list:
Things Mother is Intolerant of:
Nazis

Things Father is Intolerant of:
Jews
Communists
Queers
Buddhists
Lesbians
Chinamen
Negroes
Hindus
Japs
Unions
Pollocks
Environmentalists
Catholics
Mexicans
Moslems
Liberals
Socialists
Feminists
Albanians
Russians
And then Mother would search around for more paper. Mother always made a big thing
out of searching around for more paper.
<hr>

------------------
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.

[Konrad]

SterlinNorth: I see your point, now look at it this way:

The mother is comparing her intolerance to her husbands. She is saying hers is not as bad as his. She is not saying that her intolerance isn't real or "doesn't count", just that, compared to his, it's not much.

What others have been saying here is that bigotry towards bigots is not bigotry at all. Intolerance towards the intolerant is not intolerance at all.

Now do you see my point?

[Konrad]

Robodude sez:
It seems to me that all the bigot-bashing on this trhead was for the right reasons

I didn't notice your message in between the Kansas posts until now. I wasn't specifically talking about that incident. That was included too but a much better example is the reaction I got from TVeblen. He/She declared their hate for me without even knowing what I was bigoted against. Does that seem like a good reason to you?

[Diane]

"sez"?

I bet you say shit like "kewl" and "B-4" too, don't you?

Anyhow, I wasn't trying to be witty (I'll let you know when I am), I simply made the *observation that you SIR, are a complete and total dipshit who continues to make an ass of himself with displays of hysterics and last ditch efforts to insult by refering to your pee pee.

Aren't you supposed to be in school and do your parents know you are screwing around on their computer?


* Observation - a big word that Konrad doesn't understand.

------------------
&gt;^,,^&lt;
KITTEN
Please tell your pants it's not polite to point.

[speakeasy]

===========================================
speakeasy: Look spunky, it's obvious you're either too stupid or too arrogant to have read the thread....

What the fuck makes you think you're important enough to make me repeat my argument?

... then it's not even worth my time to insult you.
==========================================

Blow me, I followed it from the start until I got sick of listening to your drivel.

I didn't want you to repeat your lame argument, I was sorta hoping you might improve it a little. You know, reasonable premise, all relevant facts, consistent chain of logic, etc.

Sorry dude, you make a simplistic statement and are conveniently blind to little distinctions like; does this group advocate crime and harm based on racial or religious predudice? Face it, you've been shot out of the saddle. See ya.

[speakeasy]

OK just for chuckles, let's put it in little tiny words so it's crystal clear.

Some folks you can leave alone and they will happily go about their business and leave you alone. These folks come in many different colors and cultures. They might be a little odd & eat strange things but they're basically OK. Heck, if things go smooth you might even start swapping things with them.

Other folks aren't like that. They will come into your back yard and mess with you, maybe get together with some fellow right-minded right-color friends and set something on fire, have some fun. They think fun is you having a bad day. Those kind of folks you can't leave alone because they won't leave you alone. This can quickly lead to bad things, put down that joystick and read some history fer christ sakes.

Buy 'em books, send 'em to school, and all they do is eat the covers.

[Greathouse]

I hesitate to post here since I am relativly new and hate to burn bridges this early in the game, but I have a question.

If I disagree with someone's lifestyle (homosexuals), but don't protest and don't even go out of my way to avoid them, does that put me on the shit list? I've decided to let them live their lives and I'll live mine. If our paths cross, then there's no reason to be a dick. I just figure they get enough of that already. I'm not gonna change them so why bother. It's not like their sexual preferance comes up in casual conversation. Anyway, I don't "hate" them. I just don't agree with them.

Am I a "bigot"?

------------------
Thanks,

Daniel

[Konrad]

I followed it from the start until I got sick of listening to your drivel.

So that's your way of saying you didn't read it.

Face it, you've been shot out of the saddle.

Gee, that's like saying "face it, you're wrong". It's not an argument, just a statement of your opinion. And I don't care too much for your opinion.

get together with some fellow right-minded right-color friends and set something on fire

There's your hypocricy again. You're stereotyping bigots. Are all bigots violent? The mormons are bigots aren't they? They don't like homosexuals. But do you see them going out and setting fires?

You're just as much of a bigot as any KKK member, the only difference is that they're honest enough to admit it.

[speakeasy]

So, the Klan is a good old bunch of honest guys to you, eh? More than I wanted to know...

--------------------------------------------
============================================
I followed it from the start until I got sick of listening to your drivel.
============================================
So that's your way of saying you didn't read it.
--------------------------------------------

No, Einstein, that's when I started kicking you in the shins. Notice that dull pain just above ground level? Yeah, that.

--------------------------------------------
I don't care too much for your opinion.
--------------------------------------------

Wow, what an amazing coincidence. Spooky.

Hmm, littler teensier words might do it.

Cops have a term they learn in cop school, "bad actors". It's a thing they drill on; don't look at what the guy looks like, look at what he's doing. Helps get around pre conceived notions and comprehend the situation.

There are plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons to hate a person. For example, if a guy breaks into your house, you are legally allowed to hate him enough to shoot him. That's a standard that has been set by your fellow primates.

However, when someone starts hating a person for who they are or what they look like rather than what what they do, that's crossing the line.

When someone tries to shove a pet opinion into someone else's life, that's crossing the line.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with getting creeped out by gays or something. Not one of my hangups, it's a thing to get over, but hey it happens.

There's nothing wrong with trying to spread the word. Lots of folks have worthwhile things to say and there are plenty of appropriate times and places to say it.

On the other hand, if you didn't like the color of my socks, and you wanted to picket my driveway until I ran out and bought your color of socks, you'd be my new hobby.

[Konrad]

It's amazing how you can make such a long post and not have anything to say.

So tell me, do you hate mormons or not? Do you consider them bigots?

[matt_mcl]

Um,

I do hate a great deal of people, but I choose to hate them individually. Fred Phelps, Jesse Helms, et.al. have earned my hatred and contempt due to their personal actions. This is a subcategory of hatred known as personal enmity. They share this category with such paramecia as Ariel, the guy who managed to insult both me and my ex-boyfriend, each to the other, behind each's backs, because he had a crush on my ex. Whatever.

I have this thing where if someone is going to keep saying, I think gays are the scum of the earth, or even, I think homosexual sex is unnatural, they are going to have a great deal of trouble keeping me as a friend, or even being permitted to associate with me. For one thing, I doubt that they'd want me as an acquaintance; for another, I'd rather not hang out with people who I'm aware think of me as a sinner. I refer to this particular category as political opposition. It takes a great deal for me to keep someone on as a friend at this basic a level of political opposition; this usually takes the form of "agreeing to disagree", or realizing that someone was the product of their times, and actively reflecting on their good works rather than their homophobia (or whatever). Dorothy Parker falls into this category (a homophobe, but a product of her times; not to mention my fave writer of poetry and short stories, member of Hollywood Anti-Nazi league, opponent of McCarthy, and benefactor of the NAACP), as does my obnoxiously evangelist Christian friend Nicole (a lesbian, interestingly enough).

In the case of political enmity, homophobia is no different from other political and other philosophies which will cause me to not want to hang out with their authors (Friedmanesque capitalism, Ayn-Rand-esque amoral neo-liberalism, fascism, hatred of the poor, etc.)

Nobody's going to claim, I presume, that I have to hang out with people whose beliefs I find obnoxious. Likewise, I don't claim that people who find my beliefs obnoxious have to hang out with me. On the contrary, I bid them adieu, good riddance, and a tedious returning.

[Ophanim]

HEY, HEY, HEY!!!!!!!! You see how HATRED breeds more HATRED. It's disgusting. Stop it. You shouldn't HATE anyone. You can either give them what they want,attention, or you can not give a shit. This all started about a gay bashing piece of shit and has become everyone thinking everyone else is the FUCKING ANTICHRIST!!! Stop it. I kill people for a iving and I have NEVER in my life seen so much hatred.
God hated Two things, Pokemon, and Harry Potter. He said nothing about gays, or ignorant posters.

-------
Your Humble,
Tubassassin

[Diane]

I kill people for a living

Chef at Denny's?

------------------
&gt;^,,^&lt;
KITTEN
Please tell your pants it's not polite to point.

[Elenfair]

I rarely come out of lurkdom. But today, I will.
For the benefit of all the intelligent beings here, and the other (Hi Konrad), let us take a moment to review the meaning of the word "bigot".
Konrad, my sick little friend, a bigot is someone obstinately and intolerantly devoted to his own beliefs. Someone who is narrow-minded, prejudiced, and is obstinate about it. This, dear one, does NOT apply to anyone here so far but you.
As for intolerance to bigots: to lay asside all prejudices, is to lay aside all principles. He who is destute of principles is governed by whims. If you fight for what is right, you ultimately win. And though there might not be an absolute truth, or an absolute right, we can only hope we fight for the right causes.
As for you, my friend Konrad, face it: the people who have responded to you are not bigots because they hate bigotry. On the contrary, they have shown seemingly endless compassion by replying to your infantile comments. That, my friend, is proof of superior intelligence.
I won't tell you to crawl back to the pond you came from. I have too much respect for bacteria.
Feel free to flame me - I've dealt with your kind before.




Elenfair

------------------
"Semper Ubi Sub Ubi." =-)

[Konrad]

a bigot is someone obstinately and intolerantly devoted to his own beliefs. Someone who is narrow-minded, prejudiced, and is obstinate about it.

No.

[manhattan]

Alas, my very favorite bigot-lover and alleged flame craftsman has been bested by a one-poster. What is the world coming to?

From the WWWebster Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm) .

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1661
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
- big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big·ot·ed·ly adverb

Yes.

P.S. Elenfair, you are my new favorite person. Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board.


------------------
Livin' on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[Elenfair]

Awww... *blush* Thank you, Manhattan. I've been lurking for a while and glad to join in!

As for you, Konrad my friend, Goethe said it well - There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.
I won't condone mandatory sterilization of people like this, but I'll sure recommend in-breeding in the hopes that that side of the gene pool will self-destruct. It's also been shown that if two first-rate bigots mate, they tend to have less children than if they marry non-bigots. Not that they're less fertile - they're just too busy doin' things solo. Narcissus at work, I suppose... *phew*... Never lose faith in the universe... though I think idiots and bigots were put down here for amusement purposes. Some big galactic joke. Sorta like Zeus putting ants in "God's" Corn Flakes...
Bah guys... the more I think about it, the more I'm finding that years of college teaching have taught me one thing: I'm amused by idiots.




Konrad, you amuse me.

<g> E.

[Phaedrus]

Love= winning

Hate=losing

manhattan: I guess then by your dictionary's definition you are a bigot.

Sorry pal, I used to live in Soho and when the freaks started doing their gay pride (belch!!!) marches I left town.

Ain't been back to live there since, keep it in the bedroom, son, at least the only danger you face if you do that is AIDS!

Peace and Love,

THE GAY PHADE :)

[Phaedrus]

Oh yeah and Elenfair, I noticed you became a member just today. Just how many hours were you lurking?

[ChrisCTP]

Phaedrus, you're one to talk, having lurked for about three seconds before you commenced blathering all over the board.



------------------
"...all the prettiest girls live in Des Moines..."
--Jack Kerouac, On the Road

[Phaedrus]

Sorry to disappoint you Chris but I was lurking for 97,672 years before I posted. ;)

[Konrad]

Ya know, it's one thing dealing with people who disagree with you. It's another thing completely to deal with people whose sole purpose is to prove you wrong. The kind of person that will ignore obvious facts if they don't fit their ideas.

This may be a little hard for you to grasp, but many different people have different understandings of the word bigot. That is why dictionaries have many different entries for it. For example, I tried www.dictionary.com, (http://www.dictionary.com,) and guess what, it's a dictionary! It has 6 entries for the word bigot.

Guess what is the only thing common to all definitions?

"intolerant of those who differ"

If you want to go argue things by redefining the persons arguments then there's not much point to it. Look at the first post. That has defined what we are arguing about here. Understand that? Manhattan posted about anti-gay protesters. We are using his definition of bigot. That is someone who is intolerant of those who are different.

What you're trying to prove here is a truism. By the very definition of "obstinate" you can say a person will not listen to reason. Woohoo! You're a big genius by basically saying "What's wrong is wrong".

However, that doesn't change the fact, that some of those protesters which Manhattan was ranting about, who he labelled bigots, may not have been obstinate at all.

Ya know what? I think it's time for a puppet show again...

[open curtains]
[enter manhattan, Konrad, Toidi]
m: Those anti-gay protesters are bigots. I hate bigots.

K: Doesn't that mean you're bigoted against bigots?

T: I define bigots to be obstinate. Therefore those anti-gay protesters were obstinate.

K: No.

M: Look! It's right here in the dictionary! You're wrong.

K: Want to feel my boner?

[close curtains]
[end of act 1]

[Big Iron]

[[Sorry pal, I used to live in Soho and when the freaks started doing their gay pride (belch!!!) marches I left town.

Ain't been back to live there since ]] Phaedrus

Well, at least you did something to improve the neighborhood there. Soho's gain is some poor burgh's (and the SDMB's) loss.

[manhattan]

Konrad, you should know that I reentered this thread solely for the purpose of welcoming Elenfair, my new favorite personTM. I’ve seen you get in silly semantics arguments with many members of the board (you’re always as wrong as you are here, by the way), and I have no time or inclination to get similarly sucked in. Please disabuse yourself of any notion that my give-a-shit factor regarding your posts is anything but zero.

And Phaedrus, I’m still waiting for you to fess up that you are more than one annoying person sharing a screen name. That’s the only logical explanation for your postings to date. Each and every one of you is, for the record, an annoying, racist, bigoted, stupid, pedantic fool. Or you are all good actors, in which case you might only be annoying. Time will tell. In either case, you have my thanks for leaving my neighborhood.


------------------
Livin' on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[neuro-trash grrrl]

Konrad, get off your high horse. You know what you are? You're a bigot who is bigoted against people who are bigoted against bigots, that's what. Maybe you should practice what you preach.

Of course, I have to confess that I'm bigoted against young testosterone-driven males who find it necessary to prove their virility by sprinkling their conversations liberally with references to their own penises. "K: Want to feel my boner?" Yeah, right. Wanna feel my clitoris? I'll bet it's bigger.


------------------
"That's entertainment!" —Vlad the Impaler

[andros]

Have I told you lately how much I want to bear your children, NTG? You are the coolest.

I'm so glad I didn't have a mouthful of soda.

-andros-

[Konrad]

manhattan: Don't flatter yourself, your approval means nothing to me. Ummm, just where are these other "silly semantics arguments" I've gotten into?


neuro-trash grrrl sez:
You know what you are? You're a bigot who is bigoted against people who are bigoted against bigots, that's what.

No, but I play one on TV.

And I didn't refer to my penis. The character in my puppet production, who shares my name, refered to his. It's a common technique in stories. By adding a strange or unexpected twist at the end it often delights the audience and also gives a sense of closure. After all, how many hollywood-made movies don't have a big finish?

elenfair: Ok, let's pretend that your definition is actually relevant, and that all bigots are obstinate. So what? What arguments have you made? All you've done is insult me and make a bunch of assertions. I still don't see what your point is.

As for intolerance to bigots: to lay asside all prejudices, is to lay aside all principles.

Assertion.

If you fight for what is right, you ultimately win.

Assertion.

the people who have responded to you are not bigots because they hate bigotry. On the contrary,

Assertion.


So, let's see, you've made a bunch of assertions and insults and added one definition, which didn't apply. So what's your line of reasoning? Where's the argument/proof/conclusion?

Not that I expect that kind of complicated reasoning ability from such an obvious bigot.

[Phaedrus]

Good show Konrad, maybe that will show her!!!

I doubt it though.

[Monty]

Yo, Konrad! Some assertions are true. Not yours, but other folk's.

[neuro-trash grrrl]

And I didn't refer to my penis. The character in my puppet production, who shares my name, refered to his.

Right. In exactly the same way that I did not refer to my clitoris, my internet alter-ego referred to hers.

------------------
"That's entertainment!" —Vlad the Impaler

[Elenfair]

Phaedrus, dear: One can lurk without joining, or one can have many names... :)


... and in my old grandmotherly age, I have to admit I have become amused by flaws of logic...

E.