disgruntled vs. gruntled

[beckwall]

if it is possible to be disgruntled, then is it possible to be gruntled? what exactly would that mean?

[dragonlady]

As a postal worker, I await the answer with impatience.

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

Did you ever consider looking it up in a dictionary?

It's in mine (Merriam Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary - 1987). It derives from back-formation of disgruntle, and means "to put into a good humor."

(Curiously, "gruntle" appears to be an old synonym for "grumble," so it would seem on the surface that "disgruntled" should mean exactly the opposite of what it really means.)

[Arjuna34]

From http://www.m-w.com :

Main Entry: grun·tle
Pronunciation: 'gr&n-t&l
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): grun·tled; grun·tling /'gr&nt-li[ng], 'gr&n-t&l-i[ng]/
Etymology: back-formation from disgruntle
Date: 1926
: to put in a good humor <were gruntled with a good meal and good conversation -- W. P. Webb>

[Ice Wolf]

Okay, so Americans really do have a different kind of English than the rest of us folks ...

In my mother-tongue version of English, gruntle is to grunt or grumble (from before 1425), while disgruntled doesn't mean "not gruntled" but "very gruntled"!

I think the language term is "intensifier" for dis in this case, but that's just off-the-top guessing.

[The Ryan]

If you debunk something, is it no longer bunk?

[Ice Wolf]

No. "De" here is also an intensifier. You are "thoroughly" calling something "bunkum" or "bunk"

[AHunter3]

On every cover of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers (Gilbert Shelton, Rip Off Comics) is the claim that there are millions of 'gruntled customers'

[Spritle]

Well, this is kinda long, but seeinz how this thread was about to fall off the page, I'll post it. With no offense to the OP, this thread is probably not going to last too long so my posting won't tie up that much band width.

"How I met my wife" by Jack Winter/The New Yorker

[Note: Remainder of post removed, for copyright purposes --Chronos]

[Edited by Chronos on 02-05-2001 at 12:14 PM]

[DVous Means]

After that very long post, a short joke...

Q. How would you describe a pig with laryngitis?
A. Disgruntled :)

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

The prefix dis- at one time was indeed used as an intensifier (definition #5). Thus, as Ice Wolf has already pointed out, "disgruntled" meant "very gruntled." This pretty much supplanted the milder "gruntled," until someone recoined the word with a contrary meaning.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
The prefix dis- at one time was indeed used as an intensifier (definition #5). Thus, as Ice Wolf has already pointed out, "disgruntled" meant "very gruntled." This pretty much supplanted the milder "gruntled," until someone recoined the word with a contrary meaning.
I think Cecil covered this question once and his answer pretty much agrees with the notion that the "dis-" prefix in this case is an intensifier, not a negation.

In America we might say "gruntled" or "regruntled", but only for a humorous effect. I don't think those words are acceptable in standard usage, so it's not like we have our own version of English. Really. :D

[barbitu8]

Originally posted by Ice Wolf
No. "De" here is also an intensifier. You are "thoroughly" calling something "bunkum" or "bunk"

I think, but I'm not going to bother to look it up, that "bunk" is a noun and "debunk" is a verb. Intensity is immaterial.

[UncleBeer]

More stirring for the stew. Take a gander at ravel and unravel the next time you open your dictionary. Ah, the hell with that. I'll just post what mine says.

rav•el verb
verb, transitive
[list=1]
To separate the fibers or threads of (cloth, for example); unravel.
To clarify by separating the aspects of.
To tangle or complicate.
[/list=1]

verb, intransitive
[list=1]
To become separated into its component threads; unravel or fray.
To become tangled or confused.
[/list=1]

noun
[list=1]
A raveling.
A broken or discarded thread.
A tangle.
[/list=1]


un•rav•el verb
verb, transitive
[list=1]
a. To undo or ravel the knitted fabric of. b. To separate (entangled threads).
To separate and clarify the elements of (something mysterious or baffling); solve.
[/list=1]
verb, intransitive
To become unraveled.

So, you tell me. Is ravel not both a synonym and an antonym for unravel?

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

For "ravel," the roots refer to "fraying" or "tangling." "Unravel" would thus (originally) have meant "untangling" or "defraying." But OED says in as many words that now "In ordinary English use ravel is synonymous with unravel."

[Ice Wolf]

From Chambers Dictionary of Etymology:

"Curiously ravel and unravel have long been synonyms in the sense of disentangle, unwind, and antonyma in that ravel also carried the meaning of entangle, confuse. The apparent reason for this is that as threads (either literal or figurative) become unwoven, their ends become tangled. However today, the prevailing use is that of fray out, seperate into threads."

[Ice Wolf]

I know, I know, I've got at least two typos in my last post. Mea culpa.

Hey, Javaman -- what about "aluminum"/"aluminium"? That's gotta mean a difference, right?
:)

[Pjen]

Are we in danger of starting a new thread, although I'm sure it's been covered before- differences between US and British English. Alunminum is an aberration- look at Titanium etc. However, in many ways American English is more regular and Britspeak is the aberration.

[Pjen]

Alunminum is certainly an aberration and a TYPO. Read Aluminum!

[barbitu8]

While we're on the subject of apparent negatory prefixes, look at flammable and inflammable. They mean the same.

[choosybeggar]

Consider the verb seed

From M-W

1.To plant seeds in (land, for example); sow.
2.To plant in soil.
3.To remove the seeds from (fruit).

You put seeds in, you take them out, you're still seeding.

[dtilque]

Originally posted by Pjen
Aluminum [typo fixed] is an aberration- look at Titanium etc.
You mean like Platinium, Lanthanium, Tantalium, and Molybdenium?

[Pjen]

Apologies for my stupidity over Aluminum/Aluminium- it is a random case. However I still maintain that US and British English differ in some regular and some random usages.

[Chronos]

There is no such substance as "aluminium". According to the International Union for Pure and Applied Chemistry, the internationally-recognized body responsible, among other things, for officially deciding the names of the chemical elements, the name of element number 13 is "aluminum". The IUPAC uses this name because it is the name given to said element by the chemist who first isolated it.

Of course, there are many differences between the US and UK for which there is no official "right" or "wrong" form. When was the last time any of you Americans filled up your gas tank with petrol?

[Pjen]

German: Aluminium
French: Aluminium
Italian: Alluminio
Spanish: Aluminio
UK English: Aluminium
Australian English: Aluminium
New Zealand English: Aluminium
South African English: Aluminium
Indian Sub-continent English: Aluminium

However:
American English: Aluminum

Can you see a pattern?


In Britain Aluminum is not a word, only an Americanism.

The fact that an organisation defines it as Aluminum is only a convention. It only uses Aluminum because American English is the standard language for that institution. This doesn't mean that the 13th element is called Aluminum in German, French, Italian, Spanish, or in English, only that it is Aluminum in US English.

It also defines the name of the 26th element as Iron, but in France it is Fer etc.etc..

Usage is Everything.

[Ice Wolf]

Aluminum was coined in 1812 by Sir Humphrey Davy, from Latin "alumen, aluminis".

However, he originally had it as Alumium from "alumina"+ "-ium" (suffix meaning metal).

Man, don't they just love sticking to the ol' Latin!

In 1812, the British must have thought "to heck with this" and stuck to "aluminium" (like sodium, potassium, magnesium etc.)

So -- did American usage stem from Davy's 1812 change because -- maybe they didn't exactly get on with dear ol' Blighty at the time?

[dtilque]

For a short history on the spelling of aluminum, see Michael Quinion's article (http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/aluminium.htm). According to that article, IUPAC has aluminium as its official spelling.

As far as the OP, I will say as a patriotic, non-suicidal American that there is no such thing as a disgruntled postal worker. Nope, not a one. You won't see me pissing-off a gruntledly-challenged postal worker by calling him disgruntled. No siree...

[The Ryan]

Ice Wolf: do you know what a rhetorical question is?

:)

[Ice Wolf]

To The Ryan:

Yes.

:)

[Lance Turbo]

Feeling a need to contribute to this thread, I spent a little time at MerriamWebster.com (http://www.merriamwebster.com), and I found out some shocking information.

Main Entry: bun·kum
Variant(s): or bun·combe /'b&[ng]-k&m/
Function: noun
Etymology: Buncombe county, N.C.; from a remark made by its congressman, who defended an irrelevant speech by claiming that he was speaking to Buncombe
Date: 1845
: insincere or foolish talk :

I was stunned by the etymology because I live in Buncombe County, NC. I don't know if I can continue to be a part of a message board dedicated to fighting ignorance now that I know that I live in the birthplace of bunkum.