Being overweight and getting a job.

[Kyla]

My younger sister recently had a friend, whom she'd met on the internet, stay with our parents for a couple months. I'll call her Mary. Mary is from Arkansas and decided she wanted to live in California, so she worked out this deal with my parents where she rented out the spare room for a below-market rent while she looked for a job. The agreed upon two months came to an end last week, and Mary still didn't have a job, so she moved in with another friend. She seems pretty depressed about the whole thing.

Mary's residence in the house overlapped with my own by a couple weeks, and I spent some amount of time with her. She's about 25 or 26, she has a BA, she's intelligent and very well-spoken. She's also morbidly obese. I would guess that her weight is in the 375-400 lbs. range.

My dad is of the opinion that the reason she's having so much trouble getting a job is that she is so overweight. He thinks that maybe in Arkansas, she didn't stand out so much, but here in California, it's more noticeable. But I think that this has a lot to do with him being annoyed at her for eating his food for the last two months (she is definitely overweight because her eating habits are terrible, not because of [or not solely because of] her genetics). The Arkansas v. California thing also bugs me - my parents are pretty provincial. But maybe they have a point, I don't know.

For the record, Mary wants to work in the social service sector, but I think at this point, she'd take anything. She went on a number of job interviews, but never actually got hired for anything. In fact, my sister tagged along with her at a temp agency interview, chatted with the temp agency lady and she ended up getting a job, which Mary seemed to be really depressed about.

What do you think? Is my dad right, or is he just being a jerk? Or am I being naive, and there is widespread discrimination against hiring overweight people?

[DiosaBellissima]

It really depends where abouts in California she is to determine whether or not her appearance is that much of a stronger factor than it was in Arkansas. In Newport Beach, I might I agree with your dad. . . in Bakersfield, not so much. Hollywood vs Modesto, same thing.

Just a quick Google of "Obese employment" brings up all kinds of articles and studies talking about obese folks being discriminated on in the work place and even just at the hiring stage, all due to their weight. It's not some imagined thing. I mean, I think the key thing is that your friend isn't just fat (a 250 lb woman, for instance), it sounds like she's obese to the point where there are probably complications from it. She may be young, but if she has to struggle to walk around (which, at 400 lbs, I'm not sure how she wouldn't. . .), that certainly makes an impression- fair or not- on her employer.

And I say all that as a fat girl myself, so it's not some hateful discrimination I'm spewing. At least, that's not my intent.

[rhubarbarin]

Absolutely people can be and are discriminated against for their weight. I think it's worse the heavier you are. Some people have such intensity of disgust and hatred for very fat people based only on their weight, that they can barely treat them as human.

That said, I have an intelligent and well-spoken but socially awkward friend who weighs 400 lbs, moves very slowly because of it, and smells funny (not terrible, but it's noticeable) and she's had no problem staying employed through college, and now afterward. She is still looking for a 'real' job to use her degree for but has gotten and held a lot of other jobs in the meantime. Right now she is working full-time at Macy's.

[purplehorseshoe]

... In fact, my sister tagged along with her at a temp agency interview, chatted with the temp agency lady and she ended up getting a job, which Mary seemed to be really depressed about...

Ouch. I'd be depressed, too.

[Gary T]

Absolutely people can be and are discriminated against for their weight. I think it's worse the heavier you are.Yes, yes, yes. Ask any fat person, and I imagine you'll hear of several examples.

Employers may be afraid of a negative public image, broken furniture, having to make special accomodations, or may just not like to be around large folks. Since it's not a legally protected class, they don't have to worry about an "acceptable" reason.

Whatever problems or opinions your dad has concerning her in other respects, I think he's dead right about the job thing.

[Not a Platypus]

There are things that have to be considered regarding weight/size, like needing special office equipment, simply being unable to do things, or appearance/hygiene (some people are so large they can't clean as well) if public interaction is part of the job. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a factor in her not getting a job, but it's also true that a lot of well-qualified people are still out of work. It took me 8 months to find a job, and I'm in an area where the economy has been considerably better than much of the country.

[Rigamarole]

I think the key thing is that your friend isn't just fat (a 250 lb woman, for instance), it sounds like she's obese to the point where there are probably complications from it.

250 pounds is not "just fat" by any measure, it's obese, and in fact for anyone under 5'7" it's considered extremely obese. (obesity starts at 155 pounds for a 5' woman, 190 pounds for a 5'6" woman, etc. (http://howmuchshouldiweighformyheight.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/BMI-Chart.png)).

"Just fat" for a woman around 5'3" would be more in the range of 150-160 pounds. My how our perceptions of fatness in America have been skewed.

[Gestalt]

Are you sure she is the 375-400 lb range? I don't mean to impugn your weight-estimating skills, but that is very, very large, particularly for someone so young.

[Yarster]

I would tend to think it is a discriminatory thing. After all, if someone is that overweight, they clearly don't care that much about their health, and will likely be missing a lot of days due to sickness, depression, and all kinds of other things that all things being equal, may equate to a poor employee. In a job market like this, a very obese person is not going to do well against other even less qualified candidates, because there is a feeling that she won't perform. I would say the same thing if you are one of those people who grows overly long nails that inhibit your ability to type and or do certain tasks. If you showed up in an interview like that, I would naturally hold that as a strike against you.

My only thought is that she should volunteer to get her foot in the door and if she is truly awesome, they may offer her a job. But at least if she is still going to look for social work, she can do so and have practical experience on her resume rather than a growing history of unemployment. At least that way, she may stand out as more experienced than the otherwise equivalent normal weight candidate.

[monstro]

Sometimes being hugely obese can make one look older than they really are.

So it could be a combination of fat-hatred, ageism, and how her personality is perceived in interviews. If any hint of depression is apparent, then that alone could be doing her in.

Perhaps she should look at jobs with places like West at Home. I'm not sure if you have to do a face-to-face interview, but my sister has a job with this company--which hires people to do things like activitate cell phones and credit cards from the comfort of their own home. My sister gets paid $10 an hour and can set her own hours. It's a great set-up for stay-at-home mothers. My sister hasn't had any complaints.

[monstro]

She could also gain even more weight and get on disability, like Homer Simpson did.

[Kyla]

Are you sure she is the 375-400 lb range? I don't mean to impugn your weight-estimating skills, but that is very, very large, particularly for someone so young.

Yeah, I could definitely be off, but I'm also aware of how difficult it is to estimate someone else's weight. But I'm pretty sure I'm in the ballpark - I'm a terrible TV voyeur and I've totally watched stuff like Too Far For 15, where they weigh people on TV. She is, in fact, very, very large, and while she doesn't seem to have trouble moving around the house or anything, long walks are impossible. My sister took her to San Francisco and apparently it ended poorly. In fact, the original plan was that she and my sister were planning on moving to San Francisco (my parents live in the burbs) and to be honest, I think Mary would have a very difficult time navigating the hills.

[DiosaBellissima]

250 pounds is not "just fat" by any measure, it's obese, and in fact for anyone under 5'7" it's considered extremely obese. (obesity starts at 155 pounds for a 5' woman, 190 pounds for a 5'6" woman, etc. (http://howmuchshouldiweighformyheight.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/BMI-Chart.png)).

"Just fat" for a woman around 5'3" would be more in the range of 150-160 pounds. My how our perceptions of fatness in America have been skewed.

Oh jeez, slow your roll. Obviously, you are most certainly technically correct. That said, you see lots and lots of 200-250 lb women on the day to day, going about their business, and you surely don't blink an eye because there are oodles of them. And yes, that's certainly because we Americans sure are fat. That said, a 400 lb woman is a lot more rare and would thus stick out significantly more, that's what I mean.

[Kaio]

There are things that have to be considered regarding weight/size, like needing special office equipment, simply being unable to do things, or appearance/hygiene (some people are so large they can't clean as well) if public interaction is part of the job. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a factor in her not getting a job, but it's also true that a lot of well-qualified people are still out of work. It took me 8 months to find a job, and I'm in an area where the economy has been considerably better than much of the country.

Yeah, weight may be A factor, but I wouldn't assume it's the only one, or even the most significant one. The economy still sucks ass. All seven? eight? temp agencies that I'm registered with completely ignore me, even though I check in every week and specifically apply to various job postings that I qualify for. I can go months without work (I think the last project I had was in July, and this was for a consulting firm, not the temp agencies... I don't think I heard from any of them at all between April and the beginning of October).

I'm not overweight, so it has nothing to do with that. I haven't checked unemployment figures recently, but I think they've been slightly worse than average here (Chicago), but I don't know what it's like in CA.

[drastic_quench]

It's one thing to get your foot in the door; it's quite another to stuck in it.

[aruvqan]

Sometimes being hugely obese can make one look older than they really are.

So it could be a combination of fat-hatred, ageism, and how her personality is perceived in interviews. If any hint of depression is apparent, then that alone could be doing her in.

Perhaps she should look at jobs with places like West at Home. I'm not sure if you have to do a face-to-face interview, but my sister has a job with this company--which hires people to do things like activitate cell phones and credit cards from the comfort of their own home. My sister gets paid $10 an hour and can set her own hours. It's a great set-up for stay-at-home mothers. My sister hasn't had any complaints.

Can you ask your sister how one would go about perhaps getting set up with West at Home? Being a mostly housebound gimp, it would come in handy to be able to actually work. So many work at home jobs are scams =( and medical transcriptionist is just not going to happen in Connecticut - doctors are going to the dictation programs and doing it all in house =(

[Markxxx]

Being overweight isn't keeping her from getting a job, but it's not helping.

As others have pointed out this downturn in the economy is now being called "The Great Recession."

What's happening now is instead of a job with two or three qualified people applying, you have a job with 10 or 20 qualified or OVERqualified people applying.

This means that other factors are coming into play.

If this overweight lady had skills an employer would normally hire her, rather than take a lessor skilled employee.

But now employers have it made. They can pick and choose. So ask yourself if you have 10 people ALL EQUAL in every way to do a job, who are you gonna pick?

She's gonna have to go in all smiles and convince the employer she would be the most pleasant and happy employee to have working there, because now everything else will be equal in terms of skills.

Salary isn't an issue, 'cause positions are budgeted for, and if you take less, so what? It's not like the hiring person or boss gets the extra money.

It's all gonna be about her personality at this point.

[Savannah]

I'm fat (over 220 pounds and I'm just over 5 feet tall) and I have never been without a job. I currently work in an office as a secretary, and my previous job was the same position (I quit, wasn't fired). Prior to that, I started in the business I'm in now as a receptionist, which I always assumed you needed to be attractive to do.

So it might not just be the weight that's an issue.

[Rushgeekgirl]

Oh jeez, slow your roll. Obviously, you are most certainly technically correct. That said, you see lots and lots of 200-250 lb women on the day to day, going about their business, and you surely don't blink an eye because there are oodles of them. And yes, that's certainly because we Americans sure are fat. That said, a 400 lb woman is a lot more rare and would thus stick out significantly more, that's what I mean.

Hell I weighed 240 when I was working in construction. I flabby as hell but I had muscle going on underneath. I was spry I guess, but I got lots of work at that size before, in education and secretarial work. I think a lot of it is how you carry yourself though. I've noticed a lot of my overweight sisters try to will themselves smaller by pulling in shoulders and looking down, and being especially sappy sweet and girly. I carry myself like a gangly tomboyish kid, which i suppose throws people off since I'm a 250 lb 40 year old woman. ;)

400 lbs is frightening. My mom only weighed 320 at her highest and it pretty much killed her. At that weight I imagine it must be hard to walk at all.

[RickJay]

I don't think there's a lot of doubt that attractiveness helps professionally. For all the "Fat hater" blather, discrimination on the basis of attractiveness is generally unconscious.

However, in this economy, two months looking for a job is not at all remarkable.

Without knowing Mary, her job search habits, or her qualifications it's impossible for me to even hazard a guess as to why she hasn't found a job - for all we know her Arkansas accent has lost her a job - but right now it can be damned hard for people to find jobs no matter what they weigh.

[Kevbo]

Being overweight is often a symptom/cause of depression and or poor self image. In today's job market you don't have to be Debbie Downer to not seem as upbeat as some of the other 100 or so candidates competing for a job opening.

[Kyla]

Two things:

1. She doesn't have a noticeable Arkansas accent. I think she spent several of her formative years in the Midwest, and that's what she sounds like.
2. She definitely does suffer from depression. She talked about it pretty freely.

[dangermom]

Right now in California, two months of job-seeking is a very short time. My husband is very employable indeed, and got laid off two months ago. We are hopeful that he'll get something next week, but in 2009 he was unemployed for 8+ months, and he has a ton of skillz.

It is very difficult to get a job right now. There's no need to think she's being discriminated against yet.

[Gestalt]

The agreed upon two months came to an end last week, and Mary still didn't have a job.

Mary's residence in the house overlapped with my own by a couple weeks, and I spent some amount of time with her. She's about 25 or 26, she has a BA, she's intelligent and very well-spoken. She's also morbidly obese. I would guess that her weight is in the 375-400 lbs. range.


You know, with this description, instead of morbidly obese, if you had said, "the eyelashes on her right eye are slightly longer than those on her left eye . . . do you think that's holding her back?", we would have all responded that her eyelashes had nothing to do with it, that jobless BAs in their mid-20s are a dime a dozen, esp. in CA.

So, her weight probably doesn't help, but even if she had a BMI of 18 she would probably still be unemployed

[moejoe]

I have to be honest and say I would not hire a young girl who weighed what looked like 400 pounds because when I met her at the interview I would be thinking ok, here's a person who isn't willing to work hard to meet a goal...next!

Am I the only one wondering why a 400 pound girl in her 20s with a lot of free time on her hands isn't doing everything she can to lose the weight?

Is she?

[Kyla]

Am I the only one wondering why a 400 pound girl in her 20s with a lot of free time on her hands isn't doing everything she can to lose the weight?

Is she?

IMHO, no. She has depression and seems to use food as a comfort. This caused some conflict between her and my parents, who got annoyed with her excessive fridge raiding. For instance, my sister bought four It's Its - one for everyone in the house but my mom (who's diabetic). Mary ate two of them, resulting in my sister getting none of the treats she'd bought herself.

Anyway, thanks for your input, everyone.

[PandaBear77]

I have to be honest and say I would not hire a young girl who weighed what looked like 400 pounds because when I met her at the interview I would be thinking ok, here's a person who isn't willing to work hard to meet a goal...next!

This really should read "here's a person who isn't willing to work hard to meet a goal I think she should have."

She finished college, she's obviously willing to work hard to meet a goal.

[Crafter_Man]

I have occasionally hired technicians at my place of work. I am primarily looking for technical competency, though I will admit a person's weight can be a factor in whether or not I hire them. All else being equal, I will hire someone who is not fat verses one who is.

[Crafter_Man]

I have to be honest and say I would not hire a young girl who weighed what looked like 400 pounds because when I met her at the interview I would be thinking ok, here's a person who isn't willing to work hard to meet a goal...next!
Exactly.

When I see someone who is obese, I assume they are either lazy, depressed, and/or lack discipline. I do not what these qualities in an employee.

[Maastricht]

If she's still on some kind of insurance, and has some recovery time to herself, she could apply for weight loss surgery. I did it (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=564494)and it has been one of the best things I ever did for myself . At her age, she has the rest of her life to enjoy the end result.

[Khaki Campbell]

She's about 25 or 26, she has a BA, she's intelligent and very well-spoken. She's also morbidly obese. I would guess that her weight is in the 375-400 lbs. range.

My dad is of the opinion that the reason she's having so much trouble getting a job is that she is so overweight.

Orwell was below his predictions. She's not 'so overweight', she's fucking obese.

[clarkstar]

Orwell was below his predictions. She's not 'so overweight', she's fucking obese.

this is the attitude we overweight or "fucking obese" people face, hence why it would be hard to get hired. :smack:


and for the record, its not hard to walk if youre 400 lbs. its hard to run ;)

[Khaki Campbell]

we overweight or "fucking obese"

It's not or. It's like comparing "a little tipsy" with "alcohol-induced coma".

[Crafter_Man]

this is the attitude we overweight or "fucking obese" people face, hence why it would be hard to get hired. :smack:
Everyone is judgmental whether they admit it or not. And most hiring authorities will discriminate based on an applicant's dress, mannerisms, personality, and overall "looks." It may not be fair, but that's the way it is.

As mentioned above, I occasionally hire technicians for full-time employment at my workplace. I primarily look for technical competency and a strong work ethic. But there are other qualities that will boost - or decrease - my interest in the applicant. Things that will decrease the likelihood of me hiring you during an interview include:

Tattoos. Any tattoo visible to me during the interview will virtually guarantee you won’t get the job.

Piercings on a male. An instant disqualifier.

Casual dress. Though my technicians are welcome to wear jeans on the job, they are completely inappropriate during an interview.

Being very fat/obese. IMHO, there is a correlation between being fat and being lazy. So the fatter you are, the less likely I am to hire you.

Poor grooming habits. A disheveled appearance, bad breath, or any hint of body odor will be a major strike against you.

[Morgenstern]

Overweight is probably a factor but, California has 10+% unemployment. Not the best place to look for a job. Additionally, I'm hearing that 5 to 6 months is the length of a job search now.

[Ferret Herder]

Orwell was below his predictions. She's not 'so overweight', she's fucking obese.
Apparently you overlooked Kyla's use of the phrase "morbidly obese" in the previous paragraph.

[kayaker]

I don't think there's a lot of doubt that attractiveness helps professionally.

I agree, but there are exceptions. I own a business and currently have an all female employee roster. When I am looking for someone to fill an open position, I've seen the woman who does the interviews/etc (I stay away from that end of things) will look at an extremely attractive woman and find fault where there is none. Just an observation on my part.

[DianaG]

She finished college, she's obviously willing to work hard to meet a goal.
Seriously? :dubious:

[pbbth]

Could her weight be impacting her job search? Absolutely. Are all employers predjudiced against the obese? Not at all.

At this point focusing on the weight isn't going to help. Yes, encourage her to exercise and eat right because it is important that everyone do these things. Let her know that weight loss could help in a job search too. But honestly even if she lost 50 lbs tomorrow she would still be very heavy and facing the same prejudice she is today. The weight loss might be beneficial to her 2 or 3 years down the line after she has had time to lose 150 lbs when it comes to job searching but it isn't going to do anything for her next week. I would focus on things that can be changed in a short period of time. Encourage her to update her resume, if she doesn't shower at least every other day let her know how that might be impacting her job search, etc. Also let her know she should be going to networking events and looking for social activities. Volunteering would be an excellent way to meet people as well.

[fluiddruid]

Speaking as a pretty significantly overweight female (less so lately - wahoo!), I can say that being overweight is a strike against you, but by no means an insurmountable one. I'm someone who does well in job interviews since I'm reasonably well-spoken, personable, and I think fast on my feet. Generally if I get as far as an interview, my track record is pretty good.

That said, I've had some bad experiences. I got called for an out-of-town interview at a doctor's office years ago. They were very nice... until I showed up. The doctor was exceptionally rude and dismissive from the get-go, and interviewed me in a way that I would have to sound unqualified. For example (and imagine this in a harsh, nasty tone): "Well, I don't think <x job which was my only relevant experience> should count because it was only temporary work <even though I was there for a year>, so you tell me how exactly <random unrelated job I worked for a much shorter time> makes you at all qualified for this job, and why you thought it was appropriate to waste our time by applying." The interview was also maybe 5 minutes long.

I couldn't help but notice that, except for the doctor, the employees were all girls around my age, but were all very fit and attractive. I figured that his MO had to be to look at recent graduation dates and names, and call in the people most likely to be pretty young things. He, of course, was very overweight, not to mention boorish and unpleasant.

Granted, it might not have been the fat thing, but that was definitely the very strong vibe I had gotten at the time. I mean, my resume was good enough until they saw me in person, and then the claws were out.

[fluiddruid]

I guess, to add, there is obviously bias in some people (e.g. Crafter_Man) but it's not insurmountable. It's rough out there for everyone right now, so if I were Mary, I'd be looking at jobs in industries that most people tend not to work in. Call centers tend to have a lot of overweight people anyway (due to the stress/hours/conditions) so it tends to be an environment that doesn't discriminate, and where you can gain some decent skills and get promoted quickly if you're not a fuck-up. After all, if you're well-spoken, nobody can tell how much you weigh on the phone.

But, I don't know how things are in California; I'm in Iowa, so conditions are going to be a lot different.

[Labrador Deceiver]

I'm still trying to figure out why your Dad doesn't think someone who is morbidly obese wouldn't stand out in Arkansas. I've lived my entire life in the South, and I don't know, nor do I have regular contact with, anyone who is that fat.

[Inner Stickler]

Seriously? :dubious:You don't think finishing college is a goal that is hard to reach?

[DianaG]

A BA? Well, 98% of the people I know have done it, so... no, not especially. For what it's worth, the vast majority of those people agree that absent significant financial issues, it wasn't especially difficult.

It's not like you hear many people saying that college was the hardest time of their lives, after all.

[DiosaBellissima]

You don't think finishing college is a goal that is hard to reach?

Maybe at Harvard or something, but I know plenty of morons who breezed right through community college. People who can't even write a coherent sentence or do basic algebra. Good times.

[DianaG]

Pretty much, yeah. On the whole, I'm going to assert that losing 200 - 250lbs is a much harder goal to reach than acquiring a BA.

[Inner Stickler]

That's great, although I didn't ask if you think it's harder. I asked if you think it's hard. I have no difficulty believing that losing 200+ pounds of weight is hard. Even harder than college, sure. But I still think attaining a 4 year degree is something worthy of recognition.

Are there a lot of four year community colleges? The ones I'm familiar with only offer 2 year degrees. In my mind, a two-year degree is a little less noteworthy than a BA. And I know plenty of otherwise healthy mature individuals who didn't finish their college degrees. How should we resolve this battle of anecdotes?

[Rand Rover]

A morbidlý obese person displays for all to see their willingness to let a little problem become a big problem (except for the very very tiny minority who somehow eat only celery and still gain wait due to magival forces beyond their control). That's not the kind of person I woulkd want working for me.

And this has nothing to do with "discrimination" or "bias" in the pejorative senses of those terms. I'm makng my judgement based on what someone has done, not based on an uncontrollable aspect of who they are.

[Incubus]

I'm going to take the unpopular road here and say she simply isn't trying hard enough.

She got free room and board in California for two months. Does she have anybody counting on her income (besides her informal landlords)? It doesn't sound like it.

Did she have a ton of job experience in Arkansas? We don't know, but it wasn't mentioned in the OP, so I'm going to say it doesn't sound like it.

How many places was she applying for each week? How many places was she NOT even considering? So she has a BA. Like others have said, so to tons of people. That, and a BA in of itself means very little in getting a job depending on what she did with the BA. Did she take some obscure major that isn't relevant to today's job market? Then its not going to help her. Did she go to internships in college and build toward something specific? She wants a job in social services- like a Social Worker? You need Hours- volunteer work, internships at organizations, etc and secondary skills relevant to the job (ie knowing a second language) because sure as hell the people you are competing for that job will have them.

A problem many people develop is to shift blame away from themselves in job searching. Other people also make excuses for the unemployed as well- the economy is the easiest excuse because unemployment is so high. Your dad is taking the easy road here- because she is fat, that is the most obvious explanation. Other people here are throwing other excuses.

But my theory is its simply her. Not because she's fat (though that may be a symptom of the real issue) but because ultimately I doubt she's really motivated enough to make this happen. I think she probably passes up jobs she might get hired, either because she REALLY doesn't want to do them deep down, or simply assumes they won't hire her for the [obvious] possible reasons. She probably makes excuses/justifications for why she hasn't gotten a job yet. Having a BA and being smart are vague things- unless they are marketable/relevant she could be dumb as a box of rocks with a GED and have just as good of a chance getting a job.

Most likely being obese is a convenient cover for other, more changeable faults- like a lack of motivation, immaturity, etc. She doesn't have to approach these things because people are going to write her off for her appearance long before they get into her personality. Does she have an uphill battle? yes. But its ultimately what she chooses to make of it. I think your dad took the easy bait and said it is because she's fat, but I think its something ultimately that has nothing to do with her appearance, and everything to do with the situation, i.e. getting to rent a room in a house with your internet friend in CA for two months. Which in of itself is kind of nuts :dubious:

[DiosaBellissima]

Are there a lot of four year community colleges? The ones I'm familiar with only offer 2 year degrees. In my mind, a two-year degree is a little less noteworthy than a BA. And I know plenty of otherwise healthy mature individuals who didn't finish their college degrees. How should we resolve this battle of anecdotes?

Community college probably wasn't the right term (see, I used it wrong because I went to a. . .nevermind :p). But in California, we have the famous UC schools (UCLA, UC Berkeley, etc.), then the far easier to get into CSU schools (while some are a lot nicer-- like Cal Poly, most are schools like Cal State Bakersfield, which rejects just about nobody). Then, of course, we also have junior/ community colleges.

The CSUs are a weird group- definitely universities, but definitely not as ...prestigious, I guess. . . as the UCs (generally. Because again, there are some great CSUs).

[DianaG]

That's great, although I didn't ask if you think it's harder. I asked if you think it's hard. I have no difficulty believing that losing 200+ pounds of weight is hard. Even harder than college, sure. But I still think attaining a 4 year degree is something worthy of recognition.
Sure it is. They recognize it with a degree. I've seen lots of them, since, as mentioned, 98% of the people I know have one.

Seriously, I'm not denigrating the BA. I'm just not buying that it's a particularly notable achievement, since I believe the definition of 'notable achievement' is 'something not everyone you know has done'.

[even sven]

It's probably just the economy. I have plenty of really on-the-ball friends who have been looking for months. Added to that is the fact that employers can practically smell depression.

That said, that level of obesity would set off some alarm bells for me. You don't get that way without some serious ability to suspend disbelief and avoid confronting your problems. When someone gets behind and work starts piling up, I want someone who can tackle that, not someone who can push stuff to the back burner until it gets critical. That level of obesity also indicates some pretty big personal issues. If your personal issues are affecting your health to the point that it is life-threatening, why would i believe they are not also going to affect your job?

[Blaster Master]

I think that this is likely a confusion of correlation and causation. The current unemployment rate of 9.6%, and worse in California, probably has at least as much to do with her not getting a job as anything else. That said, she's certainly not helping herself by being morbidly obese. Like it or not, true or not, many people will see someone who is noticeably fat, muchless morbidly obese, as being lazy, lacking discipline, being careless, lacking energy, having poor health, and any number of other characteristics that don't look good to a potential employer. Combine that with depression, and it's easy to see why she might lose out to someone who is roughly equally qualified.

It's one thing to be within the realms of average, up to around mid 250s or so depending on her height, but they don't really register as fat because they're not that far outside the norm. Perhaps it would behoove her to consider focusing on loosing weight as part of her job search, even getting down to just "really fat" rather than morbidly obese could make a difference.

[AuntiePam]

I don't know what my daughter-in-law weighs, but it's enough to warrant rude stares when we're out and about. She got a great job right out of college, before she put on the weight. By the time she was down-sized, she was significantly up-sized. She gets tons of interviews based on an excellent resume, but in four or five years, she's had nothing but temp work. She has a bubbly personality and is well-groomed, and obviously intelligent and well-adjusted. I'm pretty sure her size is the issue.

[Rigamarole]

Sure it is. They recognize it with a degree. I've seen lots of them, since, as mentioned, 98% of the people I know have one.

Seriously, I'm not denigrating the BA. I'm just not buying that it's a particularly notable achievement, since I believe the definition of 'notable achievement' is 'something not everyone you know has done'.

Obviously "everyone you know" is not a representative sample of the population, since only about 25% of adults in the US have a bachelor's degree or higher.

[lindsaybluth]

Let's put it this way: I am 15 pounds overweight. I carry it very well, with an athletic build. Only my SO and my close friends even know that I'm overweight.

In an internship interview last year (which I got), the two ladies interviewing me were about 60 pounds and about 80 pounds overweight, respectively. They both made separate disparaging comments about how I should "eat more" (when offered candy) and questioned "well, what do you drink?" when I politely declined a Coke. One of them was a manager, the other was an assistant manager in another department.

So it certainly cuts both ways. People judge and remark on weight regularly. But yes, it's no doubt affecting her. Perhaps she could try and do more interviews by phone first?

[Kaio]

Overweight is probably a factor but, California has 10+% unemployment. Not the best place to look for a job. Additionally, I'm hearing that 5 to 6 months is the length of a job search now.

It also depends on the industry, some are more depressed/difficult to get into than others. Companies will do without a full complement of creative services long before they'd consider doing without a full complement of people who keep track of the money, for example. And if she's looking for retail, well, so is everyone else, these days, and most of them are way overqualified. If she doesn't have something that makes her really stand out, she's going to get lost in the shuffle of the other 300 resumes that are submitted for every one job opening. A lot of it's going to be luck -- does her resume end up near the top or the bottom of the stack? Because that poor overworked HR person isn't going to read farther than it takes to get her 5 or so potential interview candidates.

[fluiddruid]

Let's put it this way: I am 15 pounds overweight. I carry it very well, with an athletic build. Only my SO and my close friends even know that I'm overweight.

In an internship interview last year (which I got), the two ladies interviewing me were about 60 pounds and about 80 pounds overweight, respectively. They both made separate disparaging comments about how I should "eat more" (when offered candy) and questioned "well, what do you drink?" when I politely declined a Coke. One of them was a manager, the other was an assistant manager in another department.

So it certainly cuts both ways. Very true. People are often just judgemental assholes in general, or make unrealistic assumptions about people. It really amazes me how otherwise intelligent people can paint with such a broad brush; a fat person has to be a procrastinator or unable to control themselves at all, or a thin woman is a high-maintenance Barbie type. It's just so much bullshit, all in all.

That said, you can't change human nature. Mary has to find a job one way or the other. Ultimately with nearly 10% unemployment, you have to be willing to take what comes along, and go out and beat the bushes. There's no easy solution but there are people hiring for jobs, and the more you apply and interview, the better you get at them.

Sooner or later, Mary will find a job where she can choose to prove herself -- or not. And standing on the strength of great references and stellar performance on the job, most (though not all) hiring managers are a lot more open to even those of us who are quite overweight. After all, it's a lot harder to make asinine assumptions if you have lots of evidence to the contrary. And, of course, networking helps too.

[Rand Rover]

Very true. People are often just judgemental assholes in general, or make unrealistic assumptions about people. It really amazes me how otherwise intelligent people can paint with such a broad brush; a fat person has to be a procrastinator or unable to control themselves at all, or a thin woman is a high-maintenance Barbie type. It's just so much bullshit, all in all.

The fat and skinny cases are completely different. There is evidcence that a fat person is probably a lazy procrastinator, but there's no evidence that a skinny person is high maintenance.

[fluiddruid]

The fat and skinny cases are completely different. There is evidcence that a fat person is probably a lazy procrastinator, but there's no evidence that a skinny person is high maintenance.Of course. Your biases are based in fact, others' are not. I consider myself so advised.

In any case, it's immaterial for the purposes of this thread what your specific feelings about fat people are. Clearly, Mary can't lose hundreds of pounds before she finds a job, so as finding a job from someone who feels as you do is not possible, it's not worth consideration.

[Rand Rover]

What are you talking about? The fat is the evidence. I'm not being based, I'm just observing the evidence.

[aruvqan]

What are you talking about? The fat is the evidence. I'm not being based, I'm just observing the evidence.
Oh?

Im fat, and I used to telecommute, and was always mentioned as a 'self starter' and 'highly motivated' and 'works independently' in all my work reviews. Many of the other women I used to work with were also fat or pudgy, and were dedicated employees that also were allowed to telecommute as they were also excellent workers.

You need an attitude adjustment. You can not judge a person by their looks. What is next, you are going to whip out the phrenology manual to see if we are all criminals as well?

[Savannah]

When I grew unhappy in my previous job, one of the things that kept me there longer than I really wanted to, was the feeling that my weight was a significant detriment to finding another one. It didn't turn out that way, however, I interviewed and was offered the position, and took the weekend to decide if I'd take it. I did.

At the previous office job, there was a significantly overweight woman (probably 300+ at roughly my height of 5 foot something) who worked there, and she was "laid off". That was complete bullshit. She was fired, and fired for being fat, and not fitting in with the image that management wanted. (Everyone that the new management hired looked like a Barbie doll or were friends of management. And who looked like club girls.)

Discrimination against fat people is real. But to assume, Rand Rover, that we're all lazy? That is also complete bullshit.

I work harder than the person who I support secretarily. I work, he surfs the web. I work, he chats up the admin staff. I work, he signs his name to what I produce. I work, he goes out and buys groceries, lottery tickets or Dairy Queen milkshakes. I am very proud of my work ethic, and strive for excellence every single day.

I'm fat; I am not lazy.

[Savannah]

Also I leg press 265 pounds, which is the same weight as my bodybuilder, personal trainer husband uses. And my next workout brings it up to 270. I'm fat, but I'm not lazy, and I am rather strong.

[Rand Rover]

Well, I don't know who you two think you are arguing against, but it's not me. I never said all fat people are lazy procrastinators, just that those who are morbidly obese are more likely to be. If I had a choice of hiring two similarly qualified people, one of whom was morbidly obese, I'd hire the other one.

[Rachellelogram]

You're not going to convince RR to revise his poorly-thought-out biases, though it's a noble effort.

I work in an inbound call center and like half the people here are fat chicks. There are also a significant number of disabled folks, and a couple who are disabled because they're obese. It's a really great work environment, IMO. Work is steady, people are nice, benefits are good, plenty of paid time off. You can take a day off without feeling guilty for letting anyone down since we have almost 100 reps that are all trained for the same skills.

Call center jobs are great for heavy women. The job is usually female-dominated anyway (at least in customer service, maybe sales would be different), and they don't care what you look like as long as you can type while sitting and listening. Perhaps if she has the voice of a strident harpy, she would have a more difficult interview, but weight wouldn't prejudice any of my managers against you in an interview here.

[Rand Rover]

You're not going to convince RR to revise his poorly-thought-out biases, though it's a noble effort.
How am I biased?

[Kyla]

I'm still trying to figure out why your Dad doesn't think someone who is morbidly obese wouldn't stand out in Arkansas. I've lived my entire life in the South, and I don't know, nor do I have regular contact with, anyone who is that fat.

Because my dad thinks everyone in the South is an overweight Tea Party member who spends all their time hunting and/or fishing. If they are white, they're probably in the KKK, as well.

If you weren't like that, you'd have left the South and come here to California, where we're sooooooo enlightened and special omg you have no idea!

[Rachellelogram]

How am I biased?
I never said all fat people are lazy procrastinators, just that those who are morbidly obese are more likely to be.

[citation needed]

[Rand Rover]

Right. I'm making a determination of a person's likely future behavior based on available evidence of their past behavior. That's not "bias."

[Rachellelogram]

You're assuming that laziness and procrastination are causally linked with obesity. I have anecdotal evidence of thin lazy procrastinators and hardworking, motivated fatties (which is just as useless as yours, being anecdotal, but being unbiased myself I don't draw any conclusions about the motivation of a person based on their body size).

Isn't a big part of the LSAT finding where a faulty argument breaks down? I'd think you should be good at finding the fatal flaw in your argument... if it wasn't your argument, maybe.

Either cite a source to back up the "fact" that laziness and procrastination causes obesity, or simply admit you're biased.

[Rand Rover]

It's a self-evident proposition. A person who is morbidly obese was at some point only obese, and then only very overweight, and overweight, and slightly pudgy, and perfectly fine. They chose not to do anything about the problem as it grew and grew (and grew). Of course there are rare exceptions--people who have some medical issue that makes weight gain absolutely beyond their control.

Do you have any evidence that a majority (or even a large plurality) of morbidly obese people gained all that weight through circumstances completely beyond their control?

[moejoe]

This really should read "here's a person who isn't willing to work hard to meet a goal I think she should have."....

This is true, it is a goal that I think she should have. I'm not sure where you work, but my boss sets most of my goals for me, so someone who is willing to work hard toward the goals that I want them to have is exactly what I'm looking for in an employee.

[carnut]

Her weight is very likely an issue with some employers but unlikely with all employers. There could be a host of reasons, especially how she comes across in interviews.

She shouldn't give up on the temp agency. She should call them every single week to remind them she is available and interested. Having worked behind the scenes at one of these places, I know they can play games with people who don't seem excited about being a temp or who piss them off for one reason or another. If she keeps calling, someone there will find her some work.

[Rachellelogram]

It's a self-evident proposition. A person who is morbidly obese was at some point only obese, and then only very overweight, and overweight, and slightly pudgy, and perfectly fine. They chose not to do anything about the problem as it grew and grew (and grew). Of course there are rare exceptions--people who have some medical issue that makes weight gain absolutely beyond their control.

Do you have any evidence that a majority (or even a large plurality) of morbidly obese people gained all that weight through circumstances completely beyond their control?

I didn't make an assertion that requires science to back it up. You did. There is nothing self-evident regarding a causal link between motivation and body size, not least because you are completely failing to take into consideration the number of non-obese people who are lazy and unmotivated.

In fact, frequently science points out things that appear self-evident to many people, which end up being conflation of correlation with causality, or flatout mistaken assumptions/biases.

Your argument needs work, counselor.

(also not everyone sees weight gain as a problem that needs to be fixed--outside the scope of this thread for sure, but still something for you to consider)

[Rand Rover]

OK. You can be obtuse if you want to, no skin off my ass, but my position is perfectly logical. Being morbidly obese is unhealthy, so it's a bad thing. The way to get morbidly obese is to eat more calories than you burn. If you see yourself getting morbidly obese and don't do anything about it, then that generally shows that you are willing to let a bad thing happen and not do anything about it. A person that would do that is not the type of person I want to hire (but YMMV, and that's perfectly OK).

[Gruntled]

Weighing in (lol) as another employer here,

I would not hire an obese person. I think they are lazy, blame others for their problems and will cost my company money.

[Rachellelogram]

OK. You can be obtuse if you want to, no skin off my ass, but my position is perfectly logical. Being morbidly obese is unhealthy, so it's a bad thing. The way to get morbidly obese is to eat more calories than you burn. If you see yourself getting morbidly obese and don't do anything about it, then that generally shows that you are willing to let a bad thing happen and not do anything about it. A person that would do that is not the type of person I want to hire (but YMMV, and that's perfectly OK).

You're also failing to address when obesity starts in childhood. Depending on the parent, a child has very little or no power over what food their parents make available. Therefore a child cannot be held responsible for the "problem" as such. And a 25 year old who has been ostracized for being fat since early childhood is going to have a much harder time shedding pounds (both psychologically and physiologically) than a 25 year old who grew up thin and just gained weight since college.

I hope I've helped you see why you are biased. Even so, I wouldn't expect you to admit it.

[Crafter_Man]

If you're morbidly obese, you have a serious mental problem. I cannot afford to hire someone with a serious mental problem.

[Rand Rover]

I understand about fat kids--but they should get their shit together once they get old enough to make their own food choices.

You can keep calling me "biased" if you want to, I don't care.

[Gruntled]

You're also failing to address when obesity starts in childhood. Depending on the parent, a child has very little or no power over what food their parents make available. Therefore a child cannot be held responsible for the "problem" as such.


This isn't a thread about childhood obesity.

And a 25 year old who has been ostracized for being fat since early childhood is going to have a much harder time shedding pounds (both psychologically and physiologically) than a 25 year old who grew up thin and just gained weight since college.

A 25 yar old is an adult. And unless he or she is retarded, should be able to understand that if they eat more calories than they burn, they will keep getting fat. And that to get back to a healthy weight they need to burn more than they eat.

[Gruntled]

If you're morbidly obese, you have a serious mental problem. I cannot afford to hire someone with a serious mental problem.
Agreed

[Rachellelogram]

I'm stating a fact, whether you accept it or not. You (and many others in the thread) haven't cited a single source (other than obviouslyintuitionlulz) stating that obesity is caused by laziness or procrastination. Nobody has yet acknowledged the fact that a thin person can easily be lazy or procrastinatory, as well. The fact that people are assuming a causal link between laziness and obesity, and forming prejudgments based on those assumptions, WITHOUT EVIDENCE!, means you are biased.

I'm just picking on you because someone who is college-educated should know better than to refuse to own up to their biases. The very fact that you're being judgmental without any scientific basis for said judgment means you are biased, by definition. We are all biased on certain topics, the trick is not deceiving ourselves about it.

You're free to discriminate based on appearance all you like, as far as I am concerned--I can't stop you. But doing so and refusing to acknowledge that you're biased against the trait in question is a flat-out lie. That doesn't sit well with me.

[BigT]

I'm stating a fact, whether you accept it or not. You (and many others in the thread) haven't cited a single source (other than obviouslyintuitionlulz) stating that obesity is caused by laziness or procrastination. Nobody has yet acknowledged the fact that a thin person can easily be lazy or procrastinatory, as well. The fact that people are assuming a causal link between laziness and obesity, and forming prejudgments based on those assumptions, WITHOUT EVIDENCE!, means you are biased.

I'm just picking on you because someone who is college-educated should know better than to refuse to own up to their biases. The very fact that you're being judgmental without any scientific basis for said judgment means you are biased, by definition. We are all biased on certain topics, the trick is not deceiving ourselves about it.

You're free to discriminate based on appearance all you like, as far as I am concerned--I can't stop you. But doing so and refusing to acknowledge that you're biased against the trait in question is a flat-out lie. That doesn't sit well with me.

You're actually being too kind. It isn't bias, it's prejudice, and therefore bigotry.Usually people have had at most one actual experience with the subject, decided that everyone must be exactly like them, and then when they find out it doesn't work, they have to make up other reasons like people being mentally ill in order to fit their own preconceived reality.

Of course, the fact that some align them with the mentally ill, which are increasingly found to have biological problems and thus on the same level as the physically handicapped (which are a protected class, I believe) indicates that their ignorance on both subjects is quite vast. And thus you can dismiss their comments the same way you would dismiss a moon hoaxer.

Except, of course, that there are quite a few people out there that believe the same way. The fight against ignorance and for civil rights never ends.

Then again, at least we mentally ill can marry.

[Rand Rover]

I've done some soul searching and realized that I'm biased against lots of people. Here are some examples:

1. When walking outside at night, I'm biased against people wearing ski masks and carrying weapons. I tend to avoid them.

2. When making plans with friends, I'm biased against people who always show up late or otherwise flake out. I tend to not make plans with them any more.

3. At work, I'm biased against people who don't do a good job on assignments I've given them. I don't work with them anymore.

4. When hiring someone, I'm biased against those who show up late for the interview.

[aruvqan]

How am I biased?

How about hiring based on something strange and unusual like actual skills and qualifications instead of appearance?

[olivesmarch4th]

Right. I'm making a determination of a person's likely future behavior based on available evidence of their past behavior. That's not "bias."
The only future behavior you can predict in a fat person based on past behavior is that they will continue to overeat and not exercise. Neither of these things has anything to do with being a good employee. I'm not sure why you are overgeneralizing from ''eating too much'' to work-related skills which have nothing to do with food or exercise. That is why you are biased... because you fail to understand that the only thing fatness predicts is future fatness.

[Balthisar]

It depends on the employment situation, and whether I were providing health insurance to employees. Lazy people aren't universally lazy in everything they do. So, the call center mentioned above: Lazy people can sit on their asses all day talking on the phone. There aren't a whole lot of performance expectations. On the other hand, if I were paying for health care, I'd try steering towards the healthiest workforce possible in order to control rates, and that would certainly influence my decision on the number of obese employees.

On the other hand, there really are jobs that require initiative. Here we can distinguish between true laziness and slothfulness. Not all thin people aren't lazy, and not all fat people are lazy, but experience is a perfectly sound reason for having certain expectations.

[Gruntled]

How about hiring based on something strange and unusual like actual skills and qualifications instead of appearance?

Not appearance. Behavior.

[carnut]

If you're morbidly obese, you have a serious mental problem. I cannot afford to hire someone with a serious mental problem.

Interesting. I know plenty of thin people with serious mental problems. Have you avoided hiring those too or is weight your basis? I'm guessing you had a personal experience which set your mind against hiring the obese, lest you be burned again.

In my own experience, your response seems very shallow. I have worked with some awesomely intelligent, capable people with the ability to get things done despite their weight. Maybe it's because of their weight though; maybe they are focusing on business as a way to avoid losing weight.

Then again, maybe I should just stop hiring people with big noses because they smell so much.:rolleyes:

[Not a Platypus]

I'm curious about the people that have said they wouldn't hire an obese person because they're lazy and/or unmotivated. Do you consider that the person you're looking at might have been fatter and is working to lose that weight? Obviously not all fat people are trying to do anything about it, but there are many who are, and it's a process that can take years. When you're interviewing a fat person, do you talk to them about it so you can determine whether they're making an effort?

[Dangerosa]

But now employers have it made. They can pick and choose. So ask yourself if you have 10 people ALL EQUAL in every way to do a job, who are you gonna pick?


OT - I read an article about jobs going unfilled. The article talked to recruiters who said "employers are looking for purple penguins" - they don't want a developer. They want a developer/business analyst/project manager who can do a little user interface design work, and all their own technical documentation. And before you say "well, that person isn't out there" - the problem is that they are - the people left in the organization after the purge learned how to do four or five different jobs, so you know just a little harder search will drop the "purple penguin" into your lap.

But you are right, when you get 300 applicants - many of them qualified - you can be picky and not hire someone because you just don't like something about them. And yes, there are protected classes, weight isn't one of them, but right now even with protected classes, with 300 applicants, 200 qualified, there isn't going to be any way to prove someone didn't get hired because they were a black, gay, muslim woman, unless someone makes a really stupid mistake.

[Evil Captor]

A morbidlý obese person displays for all to see their willingness to let a little problem become a big problem (except for the very very tiny minority who somehow eat only celery and still gain wait due to magival forces beyond their control). That's not the kind of person I woulkd want working for me.

And this has nothing to do with "discrimination" or "bias" in the pejorative senses of those terms. I'm makng my judgement based on what someone has done, not based on an uncontrollable aspect of who they are.

Yes. This. In the same way, I find that politically conservative people make very poor employees. They have let fear rule their lives, and their political conservatism is a reflection of that. They will always be a drag on any organization they work with, preventing it from growing, innovating or even adapting to change.

And this has nothing to do with "discrimination" or "bias" in the pejorative senses of those terms. I'm making my judgment based on decisions people have made, not based on an uncontrollable aspect of who they are.

[Evil Captor]

Sure it is. They recognize it with a degree. I've seen lots of them, since, as mentioned, 98% of the people I know have one.

Seriously, I'm not denigrating the BA. I'm just not buying that it's a particularly notable achievement, since I believe the definition of 'notable achievement' is 'something not everyone you know has done'.

Well, Diana ... have you considered that it might be a matter of who YOU know?

[Rand Rover]

Yes. This. In the same way, I find that politically conservative people make very poor employees. They have let fear rule their lives, and their political conservatism is a reflection of that. They will always be a drag on any organization they work with, preventing it from growing, innovating or even adapting to change.

And this has nothing to do with "discrimination" or "bias" in the pejorative senses of those terms. I'm making my judgment based on decisions people have made, not based on an uncontrollable aspect of who they are.
This isn't a valid analogy at all. You look at a "politically conservative" people (not sure I qualify as a fiscal conservative and social liberal) and believe they are that way because they let fear rule their lives and are resistant to change.

But those qualities aren't a necessary or even likely reason why a person is "politically conservative." I, for example, am fiscally conservative simply because I think it's a better way to organize a society. Fear has nothing to do with it, and, inasmuch as I think the federal government is too big and active now, I specificallý want change to occur.

A morbidly obese person, on the other hand, cannot get that way without being willing to let a small problem get big (with an exception for the tiny minority who literally can't control their weight gain for some reason).

[Vinyl Turnip]

I worked a couple of temp jobs where I was practically the only person not morbidly obese.

Horrible, awful jobs that made two weeks seem like a lifetime... but still, "plus-size" friendly.

[MeanOldLady]

For instance, my sister bought four It's Its - one for everyone in the house but my mom (who's diabetic). Mary ate two of them, resulting in my sister getting none of the treats she'd bought herself.Why is she eating other people's food? That would piss me off, too. Be fat on your own dime.

You're actually being too kind. It isn't bias, it's prejudice, and therefore bigotry.Are you saying assuming someone who is morbidly obese hasn't put in the necessary efforts to attain a healthy weight is bigotry?

[fluiddruid]

A morbidly obese person, on the other hand, cannot get that way without being willing to let a small problem get big (with an exception for the tiny minority who literally can't control their weight gain for some reason).Really, this isn't at all helpful to the OP, but you're presuming that being "willing" to let yourself get overweight has anything to do with handling work-related problems. While there is a very small number of people who can't lose weight -- and this discussion's not really about that -- ultimately unless the job is directly related in some way to someone's physical fitness, it doesn't make a lot of sense to base hiring decisions on it. Lots of people have personal problems regarding their lifestyle, their relationships, their finances, or many other choices. It's asinine to base hiring decisions on those things given that there are so many better criteria available (e.g. work history, references, a good job interview).

Speaking as someone who is obese and has been losing weight for years, it's frustrating to hear such biases. Seeing someone's current weight is not the whole story. If you found out that someone quit smoking three years ago, but they used to smoke four packs a day, would you decline to hire them? Probably not. And, for what it's worth, a lot of people are significantly overweight far before they're really old enough to make good decisions about it.

All this said, it really doesn't matter for the OP's purposes. Clearly, some people have very deeply held feelings that the morbidly obese are not as employable as similarly-qualified individuals without such qualities, but it's simply not feasible for a person to drop the weight before getting a job. All things being equal, it sounds like the OP is indicating that Mary really should pursuing a healthier lifestyle, but in the end she's going to have to just keep trying to find a job and realize that there are people who aren't going to give her a fair shake. People make snap judgements all the time about people based on appearance and comportment, and unfortunately for those of us who struggle with our weight, there's a significant number of people who really, really don't like fat people.

[Kyla]

Why is she eating other people's food? That would piss me off, too. Be fat on your own dime.

Food was supposedly included in the rent she was paying. (Other people have said that she was staying here for free, but that's not accurate; what I said was that she was paying a below-market rent.) However, my parents eventually did get tired of her eating so much food, and basically not being very helpful around the house. They think she acted overly entitled. Like, she took baths all the time, which drove up the water bill, that sort of thing. Like I said earlier, Mary has been fed take-out food for her entire life and has never spent any time in a kitchen before. My mom thinks people who aren't cooking should offer to help out - wash the dishes, offer to make the salad or chop vegetables, set the table, that sort of thing. Mary never did any of that, and it pissed my mom off. At one point, my mom told Mary that she should help more, and Mary said basically, "I'd be happy to help, but you have to tell me what I should do and direct me, because I don't know how to do any of these things," and my mom refused, because she doesn't feel like babysitting her. So Mary didn't help at all.

Anyway. I even think that that would have not been a big deal if she weren't so overweight. I think it added to an impression of laziness that wasn't helped by the fact that she also got up at around noon every day.

Like I mentioned, she suffers from clinical depression (she takes medication for it, though) and it seems obvious to my untrained eye that all of her behavior is both a symptom and an indirect cause. She eats junk food to give herself short term happiness and then her weight and poor diet make it worse.

Honestly, I kind of think her dad, who never taught her to eat healthfully or how to cook or clean up after herself, deserves a smack upside the head. Whether or not a BA is a worthwhile accomplishment, she's also clearly very smart and sweet and it would just be a shame if her weight prevents her from finding success in life.

[Rand Rover]

Fluiddruid--if you found out someone cheated on their taxes, would you give them money to invest for you? If you found out a friend borrowed someone's car and trashed it, would you let them borrow your lawnmower, or ask them to babysit?

The point is that past bevahior can be used to predict future behavior, and I don't think that people's lives are so compartmentalized that their past behavior in one area means absolutely nothing about their future behavior in other areas. Also, I think your own situation here is making it hard for you to understand the general issue. Finally, just want to make sure you understand that I've only been talking about morbidly obese people--I wouldnt automatically not consider an applicant just because of a few extra pounds or anything.

[Tamerlane]

Being very fat/obese. IMHO, there is a correlation between being fat and being lazy. So the fatter you are, the less likely I am to hire you.

Not going to argue with you in general, as there may well be a kernel of truth in that ( though I suspect the issue is as often willpower and motivation as it is laziness per se ). But just as a counter-anecdote ( which should not be pluralized;)) I will note that the hardest working man I've ever met was a blue-collar supervisor who was easily 350+. Big guy built like a Russian weight-lifter and similarly strong - he was also the single strongest man I have ever met despite his massive gut.

He could be kind of a slave-driver, but unlike most of his ilk he was always respected because he would never ask you to do anything he wouldn't do himself. He'd get right down with you and work his ass off at the nastiest, most menial tasks. His biggest flaw as a supervisor is he always respected working hard over working smart.

He was told by by one upper-management fellow ( quietly and without witnesses, but i believe him ) that he would never be promoted above foreman because his size projected a poor image, despite his demonstrated competence. Despite the front-line, blue-collar nature of the job he didn't look good enough to be supervisor material. In the end he was promoted when that particular manager moved on elsewhere.

His weight did kill him prematurely in the end ( massive blood pressure led to a stroke ), but only after ~20 years of hard service.

[Evil Captor]

This isn't a valid analogy at all. You look at a "politically conservative" people (not sure I qualify as a fiscal conservative and social liberal) and believe they are that way because they let fear rule their lives and are resistant to change.

But those qualities aren't a necessary or even likely reason why a person is "politically conservative." I, for example, am fiscally conservative simply because I think it's a better way to organize a society. Fear has nothing to do with it, and, inasmuch as I think the federal government is too big and active now, I specificallý want change to occur.

A morbidly obese person, on the other hand, cannot get that way without being willing to let a small problem get big (with an exception for the tiny minority who literally can't control their weight gain for some reason).

It is an EXACT analogy. I have a fantasy in my head about politically conservative people and I judge people based on it, calling it observing reality. As do you.

[Lynn Bodoni]

My mom thinks people who aren't cooking should offer to help out - wash the dishes, offer to make the salad or chop vegetables, set the table, that sort of thing. Mary never did any of that, and it pissed my mom off. At one point, my mom told Mary that she should help more, and Mary said basically, "I'd be happy to help, but you have to tell me what I should do and direct me, because I don't know how to do any of these things," and my mom refused, because she doesn't feel like babysitting her. So Mary didn't help at all. If Mary doesn't know how to chop an onion, or do any of the other chores, then why is it wrong for her to admit to ignorance and be willing to learn? Mary has other flaws, but if she's willing to do chores as long as someone teaches her how to do them, I can't say that she's in the wrong here. Your mom could have taught her a new chore every other day or something. Yes, Mary SHOULD have been taught by her own parents, but that's in the past and can't be fixed.

[Rachellelogram]

I'm also stymied as to how you can tell the difference between someone with a medical condition causing weight gain and someone without a condition causing weight gain. Either way they look the same on the outside. Saying you have no problem with someone who has a condition causing weight gain doesn't equate with judging fat people based simply on their fatness. It's not exactly kosher at a job interview to ask a woman if she has PCOS or a man if he has a thyroid condition.

[Rand Rover]

Evil Captor--so what's your theory on how someone becomes morbidly obese? Do they just wake up that way one day? Do you think it typically happens through events that are absolutely beyond a person's control?

[Kyla]

If Mary doesn't know how to chop an onion, or do any of the other chores, then why is it wrong for her to admit to ignorance and be willing to learn? Mary has other flaws, but if she's willing to do chores as long as someone teaches her how to do them, I can't say that she's in the wrong here. Your mom could have taught her a new chore every other day or something. Yes, Mary SHOULD have been taught by her own parents, but that's in the past and can't be fixed.

Well, I wasn't there, so I don't know how this conversation went down. Knowing my mom, she probably only mentioned it after she got really, really, really annoyed (she's the queen of passive aggression) and by that time it got to that point, she wasn't in the mood to be a teacher.

[arseNal]

... because you fail to understand that the only thing fatness predicts is future fatness.To be fair, it seems to me that this line of reasoning could help you nullify just about any kind of predictor we ever use for anything. "Oh, you got a 4.0 at Harvard? That only tells me you are good at getting high grades. At Harvard."

[clarkstar]

It's not or. It's like comparing "a little tipsy" with "alcohol-induced coma".

the quote was your bigoted term

[clarkstar]

If you're morbidly obese, you have a serious mental problem. I cannot afford to hire someone with a serious mental problem.
we have a psychiatrist in the house! everyone pay attention to this learned professional! :rolleyes:

[Nava]

Well, I wasn't there, so I don't know how this conversation went down. Knowing my mom, she probably only mentioned it after she got really, really, really annoyed (she's the queen of passive aggression) and by that time it got to that point, she wasn't in the mood to be a teacher.

Makes me think of my mother's most frequent complaint about Littlebro. He's a self-starter at those tasks which he believes are "his", but his initial assumption about any task is that it's not-his. So, when there's a task you want him to add to his list, you don't just wish for it (Mom's favorite method - if wishes were horses, I'd have a Porsche instead of a Toyota) or sigh at the ceiling (step two) or whine to me over the phone (step three): you go and say "yo, I want you to start doing this task too. I'll teach you how, don't worry :evil grin of 'you have no way out':" And, hey, he does!



Back to the initial question, sure looks like the weight is a factor. Whether it is a rational factor or not is irrelevant, but we've got several people in hiring positions who would choose someone who they see as "normal weight" over someone they see as "aberrant weight" (either too-fat or too-thin). Still, keep on truckin' is not just the best policy, it's the only one. I see a bigger problem with the "raising at noon": I've seen temp jobs come up "for half an hour ago" because someone was sick/in an accident/had an urgent and serious family issue, but they were covered several hours before noon, you don't get those by calling the temp agency at 1pm.

[Vinyl Turnip]

I'm also stymied as to how you can tell the difference between someone with a medical condition causing weight gain and someone without a condition causing weight gain. Either way they look the same on the outside. Saying you have no problem with someone who has a condition causing weight gain doesn't equate with judging fat people based simply on their fatness. It's not exactly kosher at a job interview to ask a woman if she has PCOS or a man if he has a thyroid condition.

If I were one of that small minority, I'd be pissed at the vast legions of lazy fat fucks who merely let themselves go, for ensuring that everyone who looked at me would first assume I was one of them.

[fluiddruid]

Fluiddruid--if you found out someone cheated on their taxes, would you give them money to invest for you? I know there's no convincing you, so I don't really have much more to say on this subject, but if you think that a good analogy is

Tax cheat:Financially irresponsible::Obese:Irresponsible in every area

...then I just don't know what else to say to you. These aren't even close.

I can comfortably say as someone who has had trouble with weight management throughout my life that managing your weight is almost entirely dissimilar to being a responsible employee.

Yes, irresponsible fat fucks who are colossal train wrecks in every area of their lives exist. On the other hand, most people aren't complete masters of their lives in every area. Imagine saying "If someone can't put together a fashionable outfit, I just can't trust them to write efficient code". Someone's weight isn't shorthand for their work ethic or personality.

[Anne Neville]

If you're morbidly obese, you have a serious mental problem. I cannot afford to hire someone with a serious mental problem.

I hope you don't have 15 or more employees, or aren't in the US. If you do meet those conditions, your hiring practices are illegal under the Americans with Disabilities Act. Mental illness counts as a disability.

Do you also discriminate against people with other disabilities?

[Rand Rover]

I agree that most people aren't masters of every aspects of their lives, but I think one's overall physical shape is a big area. To continue the battle of the analogies--the ability to not be morbidly obese is nothing like the ability to dress oneself fashionably. It's much more like the ability to do other basic things that are job relevant, such as advance planning, meeting goals, and ecercising self-discipline.

Again, I'm not going to begrudge someone being a few pounds overweight--it's only at the point that it becomes morbid obesity that I would not hire them because of it.