Whats up with road construction?

[Omniscient]

Well here i am in the center of the road construction capitol of the world, Chicago, IL. Every direction I go I drive into some friggin new project. Done in the middle of rush hour no doubt. What is it that keeps these roads from staying in one piece? We put a man on the moon, but we can't make a rod that'll stay in one piece. We have a bad winter and the roads look like Berlin after WWII. We have a heat wave and the roads buckle like the San Andreas. They build a road from the ground up, a year later they need to close it so they can widen it. Where is the kink in the system? They can forsee the need to widen roads? They can't see that its cheaper in the long run to buy the better surface material? Is it politics, money, engineering? Does the state like having roads under construction? Do they think it tricks us into thinking our tax dollars are going to good use? Does anyone know why I sit in traffic every time I go some where?

[Nickrz]

The primary culprit is water and its solid form, ice. Water gets into every tiny crack in the pavement, then freezes and expands. The heavy trucks then pound the living sh*t out of it till there's nothing left but crumbs.

Water and ice bring mountain ranges to the sea. Even if IDOT paved with marble or granite we couldn't win.

[Doobieous]

Water and ice bring mountain ranges to the sea. Even if IDOT paved with marble or granite we couldn't win.

Ha, if they paved with granite, you would end up with gravel roads :).

Out here in California where I live, since we don't get a lot of freezes. We don't have too many problems with potholes. I cant even remember them having to fix any potholes on my street since they resurfaced it.
Occasionally, where the water collects in winter (we get rain then), you see some pot holes (and a lot of shattered asphalt). The work crews are pretty quick in fixing them (a bucket of asphalt and something to tamp it into the hole)

I hear in one city near here, they are repaving the entire main street because the street is in such bad shape it's almost as bad as a dirt road.

[Omniscient]

Well, I know that its not going to last forever, but gimme 4-5 years at least.

[AuraSeer]

Here in St. Louis, they repaved a bunch of roads last summer. Then the winter brought a lot of snow, which was plowed inadequately (or not at all). Once the snow packed into dangerous ice, they had to send out special "scraper" trucks to get rid of it; these tore up the asphalt as well as the ice.

Now all this summer, they've been closing psrts of interstates for repaving. I'm waiting to see if they plow as badly next winter.

[Nickrz]

Omni, I've been paying attention to the expressway maintenance program here in Chi-town for about 30 years, and it seems to me they do superficial resurfacing about every five years and a complete roadbed to surface rebuld every 10-15 years.

It's the Stevenson's turn right now, and the last time they did that one was about 1986. Considering the volume of car and heavy truck traffic these roads carry, I think they hold up remarkably well. Of course, that doesn't help when you're stuck on the Dan Ryan for 45 minutes because some IDOT bozos closed a lane with a line of traffic cones and then went off to eat lunch.. for about 3 days.

(At least Ryan has decided to do something about that *&#%* Toll Highway Authority.. argh don't get me started).

[blackwrangler98]

I work construction, i have worked on bridges and on roads. If anyone ever has the chance, you should get out and go look underneath some of these bridges. You would wonder how they remain standing and then know why it has to be done. I realize construction is an inconvenience, but the people want better roads to travel, except they don't want to wait for it to get done. Also, us construction workers would appreciate it if people could learn that the construction signs are meant for everyone, not everyone else. Just slow down a little and take your time through the site, besides all fines are doubled.

[Persephone]

I live in Michigan...road construction capital of the freaking universe. One thing I have never been able to understand is how Michigan, which was at one time the car capital of the universe, has such crappy roads. I know it's not the fault of the construction workers...when I've seen road repair completed, it always looks great. It's sending them out there to do the work in the first place. And we've supposedly got a surplus in our budget?

The roads in the city where I live, Flint, are particularly horrible. I've lived here for 8 years, and I've seen the streets in my neighborhood plowed exactly 5 times in those 8 years. That is not the fault of the street maintainers, either--the mayor makes the call as to when to send the plows. I know some of the plow drivers, and trust me, they get mighty honked off when they don't get called and they know damn well they should be out there. They know the damage snow & ice can do to the roads. When they do get out here, I swear, my neighborhood practically gives them a ticker-tape parade.

Okay, I'm done ranting.

[David B]

Omniscient -- you kind of answered your own question. Illinois gets lucky with weather -- we have extreme cold and extreme heat! Whoopee! As some have already pointed out, ice is a big culprit. But just the general weather extremes are bad also. In warmer climates, they can make roads to better withstand heat. In colder climates, they can make roads to better withstand cold. In Illinois, they throw up their hands in dismay.

[Diceman]

Cristi: I hear you. I'm a Michigander, too. I think that overweight trucks are another big culprit. And seeing how the weighing stations are hardly ever open, those trucks must be stuffed to the gills as they're barreling down I-96 and I-75. And just like Illinois, Michigan has both hot summers and cold winters, so our roads cannot be "specialized" like roads in Arizona or Alaska would be.

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"I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms." -The Secret of Monkey Island

[Stephen]

You think you've got it tough? Here in FL, potholes have a nasty tendency to be 50 feet across and 30 feet deep!

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Stephen
Stephen's Website (http://stephen.fathom.org)
Satellite Hunting 1.1.0 visible satellite pass prediction
shareware available for download at
Satellite Hunting (http://stephen.fathom.org/sathunt.html)

[David B]

Well, Stephen, if ya wouldn't build roads on swamps, that wouldn't happen! ;)

[Contestant #3]

When I gazed upon the title of this thread I thought that Omniscient was going to ask why it is that 99% of the time when you pass by a road construction crew, one guy is working and 6 others are standing there or leaning on their shovels watching!

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Contestant #3

[TVeblen]

As a civil (always!) employee in the fair state of IL, I endorse the comments about the extreme weather fluctuations and heavy traffic being resposible for potholes. As a fellow sufferer who last weekend braved both the mess around Midway and the Stevenson, must say it does cause some frustration.
But may I please interject a plea for some decent respect for the, yes, hardworking folks who repair the roads? They are out there in all our brutal weather, braving road rage cretins and doing hard physical work. If they are standing around, they are probably taking a break. Hey, we all take breaks, but most of us don't have crabby onlookers gritching about it. During that dreadful heatwave in August, I'm sure they were having to break just for water about every 15 minutes just to stave off heat exhaustion and dehydration. In fairness, can you name any profession where there isn't a certain amount of wasted time anyway?
I don't mean to criticize or downplay the frustration, but the hapless working folks who are trying to *solve* the problem aren't the *cause* of the problem.
-->dismounting the soapbox and fleeing
in confusion...<---

[divemaster]

C #3 reminded me of a Wizard of Id comic I saw last year.

Guy sees 6 construction workers, only 1 of whom is working. He asks “What's with those 5 other guys just standing around?”

“Oh, they're Union.”

Seriously, each state gets a certain amount of dedicated highway funds each year from the Federal government. If they don't spend all the money, they can't justify asking for as much the next year. So, they find roads to extend, lanes to add or whatnot just to burn up the funds. The same principle applies to almost every government agency. That's where a lot of the waste comes in.

[Sam Stone]

One of my pet peeves is the snow removal budget around here. The city seems to go over its snow removal budget every single year. So why don't they add more to the budget? the cynic in me says it's because it is easier to justify a budget deficit when you can say, "Sorry, but it snowed so much we went over budget. That's where the money went".

[Nickrz]

The reason they don't just "add more to the budget" is they rarely have more to add to the budget. Money doesn't grow on trees, they still have to remove it forcibly from someone's pocket via gasoline taxes or other wonderful instruments of destruction.

[AWB]

Here in DC, we have a dual problem. The winter ice problem, and the summer heat problem. Roads on hills with heavy traffic (especially traffic that stops & starts a lot) tend to melt and flow a little downhill. You can actually see the lines of crosswalks misshapen by this melting.

[Mr Thin Skin]

Diceman:

I was in Michigan recently, what's up the trucks with 30 or 40 wheels? Is that to help reduce road damage?

[John Bredin]

"At least Ryan has decided to do something about that *?%* Toll Highway Authority.. argh
don't get me started)."

I use the tollways (strictly on weekends) and I don't think that abolishing the Toll Highway Authority and transferring the toll roads to IDOT is a good idea in the least.

1) Nobody HAS to take the tollways if they are such a pinch-penny that they refuse to pay 40 cents toll. The surface streets and highways are still there.

2) If you think the tollway congestion is bad now due to the toll plazas, take a look at the "express"ways in the city! Having tolls separates out the people making short trips or who aren't in any hurry from those who are traveling longer distances or who are in a hurry.

3) "Free"ways aren't free! They have to be paid for from taxes on motor fuel (gasoline and diesel) or from the general tax revenue. While people in metro Chicago kvetch about paying tolls, do you think the Assembly members from Downstate will vote to have everyone in the state (read: their Downstate constituency) pay higher fuel taxes for ex-tollways that operate strictly in the Chicago suburbs? Not on your nelly!

A final comment: how come people who hate the tollway because they think that "free" roads are a God-given right are often the same people who slam transit subsidies as "pork" and government waste because train and bus commuters should "pay their own way"?!?! If I take the subway downtown to Disney Quest, I pay $1.50 fare, while tolls out to Great America work out to about 50 cents. Need I say more?

[AWB]

There's a underground protest group that's at work in the DC area. When a neighborhood sees that road construction is headed toward them, they erect orange protest signs that read "End Road Construction". And amazingly, it works!

No news yet from the school bus drivers who want to "Stop State Law".

[John W. Kennedy]

Actually, roads that last for 50 years or more can easily be built, and it would cost much, much less to build them that way.

Unfortunately, it would require spending more money this year, and since American politicians (and, to be fair, American voters) have a mental horizon that cuts off at the next election, that's out of the question.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[Akatsukami]

A sign that I saw once:Scientists estimate that, in 5 billion years, the sun will burn out. This means construction on I-75 will have to be finished in the dark.

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"Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away."

[Persephone]

Thanks, Akatsukami...just spit my coffee all over the monitor! :)

[Diceman]

[quote]Scientists estimate that, in 5 billion years, the sun will burn out. This means construction on I-75 will have to be finished in the dark.[/quote}

:D LOL!!! :D

That made my day! I've got to show that post to my dad.

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"I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms." -The Secret of Monkey Island

And thanks to you John W., for pointing out what I've been waiting to say until I read all responses -- to say that the 'culprit' for road wear is ice is to avoid the real issue, since European highways are designed and built to last 50 years before needing major repair, and most American roads are designed for no more than 20, and partly because of that, require more maintenance to get them through to the end of that period. A few months back, I happened to catch a feature (IIRC, on the Discovery Channel on Discovery Magazine which reported some engineering school's recent 'breakthrough' in formulating high-strength, durable cement for highway construction. Taking a cue from the past, they had studied the construction of Roman roads (and the Coliseum, I believe, since it has also lasted so long) and determined that the reason the Romans' works lasted the way they did is that they used volcanic ash in their cement/concrete. The ash was microfine by its very nature, and this feature, when used in a cement, permitted the cement to be virtually impervious to water damage because it did not contain nearly as many of the 'micro-cracks' Nickerz mentioned. The engineering school had taken this an extra step, and even further microfined their new substance. It also (again, IIRC) demonstrated greater resistance to loading when placed in a press.

[Nickrz]

Actually, roads that last for 50 years or more can easily be built, and it would cost much, much less to build them that way. Add this to the 100 mile-per-gallon carburetor and the cure for cancer the automakers and the drug companies are suppressing.

No, Nickerz, try adding this to your 'true facts' file. The German autobahn has lasted 50+ years without anything like the major reconstruction of most American highways. Highways in many, if not most, of the countries of northern Europe, are built to just such stringent standards.

[jayron 32]

For anyone wondering where all the federal highway money in Illinois went: I-74, and I-39. The only useful stretches of either of these highways are multiplexed with other roads (I-74/55 for example). I have traveled I-74 from Springfield to Quincy, and I am convinced that it is the biggest waste of asphault in existance. It's not like it "goes" anywhere... plans exist to extend it from Quincy to Hannibal, MO, but it would just end there as well. I'm not sure what need there is for a multi-lane controlled access divided highway that connects a city of a scant 100,000 folks to one of about 20,000 folks, and just ends there. There is no long distance travel on I-74, and it goes to no major metropolises... Likewise, I-39 covers the hugely popular Peoria-to-Madison, WI route...

More inconcievable "porkbarell parkways:" I-99 (The Bud Schuster Highway) Funny how the chairman of the House transportation comittee gets an interstate through his district that connects the booming communities of Altoona and State College to the Turnpike, while I-70 from Maryland to Breezewood (a high-traffic route, especially for long distance truckers) has been in dire need of repair for years now.

I-82: Does the desert of southern Oregon need its own bypass?

I-86: New York State has been refitting the scenic but oft unused Southern Tier Expressway to make it suitible for Interstate Highway designation (and likewise the funding that will bring). Why create a free route that would provide an alternative to a well-maintained Toll Route? Will anyone take the Thruway if a faster, cheaper, and just-as-well maintained road will do as well? Why not spend the cash repairing and refitting the decrepit parkway system. The Henry Hudson/Sawmill could use some serious bridge repair, and most of these roads could use some SHOULDERS. Instead, Pataki presses forward with the I-86 project. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE traveling the 17. Its a beautiful drive, but wouldn't these highway dollars be better spent fixing roads in urban areas larger than Binghamton, Elmira, or Corning?

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Jason R Remy

"What we've got here is a failure to communicate"
Warden in _Cool Hand Luke_

[Nickrz]

John & DIF - I suggest you do a little more research before making ridiculous claims of roadways that "last 50+ years" (without "major" reconstruction?). Most of the interchange ramps in the former East Germany were built of cobblestone, for cripe sake.

The German Autobahn is constantly undergoing reconstruction, just as most major U.S. highways are. The Germans inspect and repair the autobahn far more often than we do, but the result is the same: entire sections of the roadway are replaced. There is no question the autobahn is a superbly maintained highway, but the suggestion it was built for "much, much less" or that it somehow requires less maintenance or reconstruction than American highways just doesn't hold water.

Check out this website if you're in doubt:
http://www.enconnect.net/greengrl/autobahn.htm

It says there the autobahn is paved with "freeze-resistant concrete or bitmuminous" which means "concrete and blacktop" that are subject to the same laws of physics as roads in Chicago or anywhere else water freezes at 32 degrees. There is no secret formula or magic blacktop that can stand up to mother nature or Consolidated Freightways for anything like 50 years.

Nickrz, I suggest you read more of your own referenced links before displaying your rhetorical deficiencies by needlessly and pointlessly attempting to insult the other participants in the thread. And you're supposed to be a moderator, for cryin' out loud?!

You said:Most of the interchange ramps in the former East Germany were built of cobblestone, for cripe sake.

John and I were probably both overestimating your ability to extract the meaning of sentences when we assumed you would be able to understand we were talking of the West German Autobahn, especially since, in the very link you provide, it says:

The roads are in extremely excellent condition, except in the east where the government is trying to undo 40 years of neglect by the East Germans.

Obviously (well, at least to most people), we would not be including in our comparison to the Autobahn those sections of the Autobahn which hadn't been properly maintained for so many years.

Your assertion that the road is well-maintained kind of 'glosses over' the main point, vis:

Crews inspect every meter of the system periodically, and when a fissure or other defect is found, the entire road section is replaced.(Emphasis mine-DIF)

And, if American highways received such devotion, they'd probably last much longer, too, except I'd hazard a guess that most American highways are travelled much more extensively and heavily, and to give them the same level of maintenance would mean (since there would be far more frequent 'fissures and other defects' found, due to the materials used) obstructing traffic even more than now, which is the complaint this thread started off being about.

One might hope you would have noticed that particular quoted sentence, since you seem to have remembered what it says about the construction materials:

It says there the autobahn is paved with "freeze-resistant concrete or bitmuminous" which means "concrete and blacktop" that are subject to the same laws of physics as roads in Chicago . . .

No, Nickrz, it means what it means -- concrete and black top specifically formulated to have special resistance to the effects of freezing -- e.g., making the cement which binds the concrete from extremely fine particles (finer than those used in the cement commonly used in U.S. highways).

Then, resorting as you usually do to mere sarcastic mockery, you said:There is no secret formula or magic blacktop that can stand up to mother nature or Consolidated Freightways for anything like 50 years.

Which only you sought to imply. Neither John nor I implied any kind of 'secrecy' or 'magic' was involved -- just better engineering to begin with, supplemented by timely and thorough maintenance. But, perhaps in Europe road construction isn't a matter of a job done by the lowest bidder on the job, or the biggest contributor to the governor's election campaign.

[Montfort]

Jayron: Why doesn't my Rand McNally road atlas show Interstates 99 (in Pennsylvania), 82 (Oregon), and 86 (New York)? Are these proposed roads?

The German autobahn has lasted 50+ years without anything like the major reconstruction of most American highways.Crews inspect every meter of the system periodically, and when a fissure or other defect is found, the entire road section is replaced. (Emphasis mine-DIF) So what you're saying is, a road will last 50+ years if you replace entire road sections at frequent intervals. Ok, that I'll buy. But wait - maybe you meant they only have to replace sections that are over 50 years old? No.. that doesn't seem right. Let's see now.. how do we explain this paradox?

European roads, according to you, last over 50 years. Yet the very example you cite, the Autobahn, needs entire sections replaced on a regular basis. Why is that? How do we explain the picture on the link I provided, showing one entire set of directional lanes closed, traffic diverted onto one side, while the roadway is replaced? That scene looks oh too familiar. Maybe that particular section was laid down in 1945, eh?

It seems to me that if these roads were as good as you say, they would need less inspection, maintenance and replacement, not more, but that does not seem to be the case.
Why is that? It's because your 50-year pave- job is a myth, a fallacy. You're confusing a top-notch maintenance program, frequent inspection and replacement with the erroneous belief it's the materials and the original construction techniques that are responsible for the outstanding condition of those roads.

Furthermore, the suggestion that such roads would "cost much, much less" flies in the face of logic. I don't have the figures, but I think it's a safe bet autobahn construction and maintenance costs per mile are astronomically higher than for here in the States. You get what you pay for.

Do you honestly think American politicians and voters are so short-sighted that were such a thing as cheaper roads that would last longer available, we would reject them and spend more dough on shittier roads because there's an election around the corner? Or that any construction company which had access to such technology wouldn't make it available in hopes of beating out the competition for those fat Federal highway construction/rebuilding funds? No..
in your scenario, the wealthy construction magnate would rather spend wads of cash lining the politician's pockets instead of taking advantage of cheaper technology to become.. uh-oh. Low bidder. Yeah, that makes sense.

Someone told you "European roads are designed and built to last 50 years before needing major repair" and you choose to believe they actually do.

They don't.

Someone told John "50+ year roads can be easily built and cost much, much less."

They can't and they wouldn't.

Those are the issues.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who get called out repeating erroneous information and preaching unsupportable "facts" like to cry "foul" and then avoid the issue by pointing out that I'm a moderator - like that somehow prevents me from disagreeing with them or using plain language. If you'd like to stick to the issues, simply address me as a member - within the TOS, of course.

(fixed quote tags - Nick)


[Note: This message has been edited by Nickrz]

[John W. Kennedy]

There are other considerations, such as taking the time to build a decent substrate to begin with. Ancient Roman engineers, for cripe's sake, would spit on the half-assed job we make of it.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams