Why are jews hated and/or mocked so much?

[MinkyBinks735]

Before I get a moderator attacking me, I am not trying to be offensive or anything. I am completely serious and have always wondered why many people call each other "jews." or simply use it in such a negative tone.

[Argent Towers]

Short answer: they have negative things associated with them stereotypically, such as been greedy, tight-fisted, pushy, obnoxious and generally unsavory individuals. These stereotypes come from centuries of living on the outskirts of mainstream (Christian) society and being excluded from most ways of earning a living, and so having to form their own tightly knit clans on the margins of society. Anyone in this position is going to be the object of suspicion and mistrust, and over the years, the beliefs about Jews become more and more sinister and paranoid. The fact that the Jews rejected and (arguably) killed Christ is probably the primary root of the Jews being excluded.

As for Jews being mocked in this day and age - the slurs the OP is referring to - it's a remnant of this history of anti-Semitism, which is, thankfully, largely gone from Western society, though it obviously is still holding on among Nazi admirers, certain Muslim groups, and various anti-Jewish conspiracy theorists.

[XT]

Because the Jewish religion was ostracized in Europe for most of it's history due to the antipathy the Catholic Church (and other Christian denominations) had against them. That and the fact that in most cases the Jewish community was a separate community, never fully integrating and keeping itself apart (which made them an easy target and marked them as outsiders even in countries they were born in...though, in many cases this simply stemmed from the fact that they were ostracized and kept apart) pretty much gave rise to many of the stereotypes and the negative connotations. It's hard to launch pogroms against people who you don't first demonize, especially when you are planning to kill them, their children and families, or at least take their possessions. It's MUCH easier to do those things when you paint them as sub-human first.

Also, in Europe there were some church prohibitions against certain jobs, such as banking, which was one of the niches that Jews could fill (there were also prohibitions against Jews getting weapons or being able to do many other trades in some parts of Europe IIRC). That meant that Jews became bankers and lenders, which lead to some of the stereotypes about skinflint Jews scalping the Christians (also, many Christians would default on their loans, especially the nobles, and get out of them by leading pogroms, which meant the Jews had to drive a hard bargain just to stay in business in many cases).

-XT

[FE3O4ENAIL]

When I read a book on yiddish I was struck by an interpretation of their being Gods' chosen people.
They are Holy, we (us non-Jews) are profane. They really laid it out that every non-Jew is, basically, a bag of shit.
I could see that rubbing someone the wrong way.

[Der Trihs]

When I read a book on yiddish I was struck by an interpretation of their being Gods' chosen people.
They are Holy, we (us non-Jews) are profane. They really laid it out that every non-Jew is, basically, a bag of shit.
I could see that rubbing someone the wrong way.Kind of like the attitude Christians have towards unbelievers? Or Muslims do? Or...

[XT]

Kind of like Christians? Or Muslims? Or...

...atheists. ;) But yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

-XT

[Marley23]

When I read a book on yiddish I was struck by an interpretation of their being Gods' chosen people.
They are Holy, we (us non-Jews) are profane. They really laid it out that every non-Jew is, basically, a bag of shit.
That's not what the Chosen People thing means. I find the idea grating, but Jewish dopers have explained this in the past. Here's an example

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12756611&highlight=chosen+jews#post12756611

You are correct, I made a typo. Being chosen doesn't make Jews "better," it makes them "burdened."

For my part, I've always been sensitive to a certain deadpan grimness that culturally Jewish people can draw upon, briefly and subtly, even in the most lighthearted moments. It could be a look in the eye or the mouth, a careful inflection or a choice of words, so considered and practiced it becomes a reflex. I see it as a psychic spit on the ground, a warding off of the evil eye, a reminder that being carefree and at ease is not their privilege to have - indeed, not even worth having, really.

[Babale]

When I read a book on yiddish I was struck by an interpretation of their being Gods' chosen people.
They are Holy, we (us non-Jews) are profane. They really laid it out that every non-Jew is, basically, a bag of shit.
I could see that rubbing someone the wrong way.

Yeah, no. That is NOT the view of almost all Jews, extreme or otherwise. I probably shouldn't even bother to argue with you... If someone who is here for reasons other than flaming is interested, I'll share my views.

[Der Trihs]

...atheists. ;) Or Republicans, or vegans, or people with children, or people without children, or sports fans, or...

Humans are a tad tribalistic sometimes.

[XT]

Humans are a tad tribalistic sometimes.

Exactly. With the exception of agnatheist's, of course...

-XT

[FE3O4ENAIL]

Yeah, no. That is NOT the view of almost all Jews, extreme or otherwise. I probably shouldn't even bother to argue with you... If someone who is here for reasons other than flaming is interested, I'll share my views.

Please do not argue with me about what I read in a book. I am just relating what someone else wrote. I thought it offensive and posted it as a reason a bigoted person could use to dislike Jews.

[Argent Towers]

The concept of the Jews being "God's Chosen People" is grossly misunderstood, especially by anti-Semites. The idea of being a "chosen people" means that the Jews have MORE responsibilities than everyone else. They have to follow 613 commandments, while the Gentiles only have to follow seven (what are known as the Noachide Laws, if I remember correctly.) The Jews aren't "chosen" in the sense that they're supposed to dominate and subjugate and oppress the whole rest of the world and that all Gentiles are scum. It's the exact opposite - the Jews are supposed to be the example for the rest of the world to follow voluntarily (the term used is "light onto the nations.") Judaism is a religion where you DO NOT HAVE TO BE JEWISH to go to heaven. Nowhere in Judaism (unlike many other religions) does it say that people who don't believe in Judaism will suffer in any way after death.

This whole idea of "they think they're God's chosen people and they have the right to shit on everyone else" is utter bullshit, a fabrication invented by anti-Semites to justify their barbaric anti-Jewish acts. That ideology is not a part of Jewish beliefs whatsoever.

[BrainGlutton]

The Jews aren't "chosen" in the sense that they're supposed to dominate and subjugate and oppress the whole rest of the world and that all Gentiles are scum.

Until the Messiah comes, that is. ;)

[Hamlet]

Methinks the tolerance of the moderators with idiot newbies is a tad too high.

[Grateful-UnDead]

It was a fundamental aspect of Roman society that wealth and social status was gained from involvement in foreign wars. Therefore, there was a need to find enemies and keep in a constant state of war.
Many Romans gained their social position through their "conquests" in the eastern Mediterranean. However, the opposition was very weak. Therefore it was politically advantageous to make it seem as if they were far more formidable than they really were.

Therefore, it became a political tactic and a means for social advancement to demonize the Jews. This is documented in the book by Josephus (Flavius???) entitiled "The Jewish Wars".

On the other question: antisemitism is alive and well in our modern world; particularly in Europe.

In my recent travels, particularly in France, I have observed that in the "upper" levels of society, it is considered to be fashionable to be antisemitic.

Clearly, the lessons of WWII are being ignored amongst those who should know better.

[gonzomax]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel Because they eat babies?

[BrainGlutton]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel Because they eat babies?

Are babies kosher?

[Chessic Sense]

Methinks the tolerance of the moderators with idiot newbies is a tad too high.

You've been on the Dope for ten years. You should be well aware that this isn't even close to being an offensive question around these parts. How is this even pinging your radar as something mods should take action against?

[Hamlet]

You've been on the Dope for ten years. You should be well aware that this isn't even close to being an offensive question around these parts. How is this even pinging your radar as something mods should take action against?It's not the question, its the OP. This thread, combined with the ever intelligent raping a prostitute is shopliftinig thread, made it perfectly clear to me the OP has no real interest in the issue.

[Czarcasm]

I am completely serious and have always wondered why many people call each other "jews."For example?

[MinkyBinks735]

For example?

man Czarcasm, you like to be on every thread I write, don't you? It is a question so I don't understand what kind of example you are looking for.

[MinkyBinks735]

It's not the question, its the OP. This thread, combined with the ever intelligent raping a prostitute is shopliftinig thread, made it perfectly clear to me the OP has no real interest in the issue.

I never said "raping a prostitute is shoplifting." I ASKED it. And if you don't think I am serious, then you can just step off and don't contribute to the thread. I have read every post people have replied to on this thread. And I do care. I have always wondered why the hatred to this specific group of people.

[MPB in Salt Lake]

And if you don't think I am serious, then you can just step off and don't contribute to the thread.

Oh no you dinnit!!!

[Czarcasm]

man Czarcasm, you like to be on every thread I write, don't you? It is a question so I don't understand what kind of example you are looking for.If you mean they call each other "jew" derisively, could you please show us an example. If you mean they call each other "jew" because they each believe the other is Jewish...so what?

[zev_steinhardt]

Why are jews hated and/or mocked so much?

Because we're cool. :D :p

Zev Steinhardt

[BrainGlutton]

Clearly, the lessons of WWII are being ignored amongst those who should know better.

Most important among them: Looting art treasures is fucking awesome! :)

[Askance]

It was a fundamental aspect of Roman society that wealth and social status was gained from involvement in foreign wars. Therefore, there was a need to find enemies and keep in a constant state of war.
Many Romans gained their social position through their "conquests" in the eastern Mediterranean. However, the opposition was very weak. Therefore it was politically advantageous to make it seem as if they were far more formidable than they really were.

Therefore, it became a political tactic and a means for social advancement to demonize the Jews. This is documented in the book by Josephus (Flavius???) entitiled "The Jewish Wars".

For a start status in Roman society was gained by successful foreign wars ANYWHERE. Witness Gaul, Britannia, et al, et sequitur nauseum. There was nothing whatever that differentiated successful foreign wars in the eastern Mediterranean. Indeed the Romans lost more wars in that general area (against the Parthians in general, also sometimes against the Armenians) than in other areas.

The Jewish Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War) were not foreign wars in any sense, they were about suppressing internal rebellions.

Why, even by this logic, did the Jews end up more demonised that, say, the Parthians? Or indeed than the Gauls, who had actually, you know, conquered and occupied Rome? Or the Goths, who brought down the western Roman empire?

The truth is that the Jews were not specifically demonised by the Romans, over and above what opprobrium their rebellious nature drew. It was Christians who did that, at core because the Jews refused to recognise Jesus Christ as the Messiah (he was just a very naughty prophet). Witness the efforts of the Inquisitions to specifically convert Jews over precisely this issue.

[tomndebb]

Methinks the tolerance of the moderators with idiot newbies is a tad too high.If you want the Mods to show a bit less tolerance for one type of poster or another, I suppose we could issue you a Warning as an example of one poster calling another poster an idiot in Great Debates.

I strongly suggest that you back off.

[ /Moderating ]

[FinnAgain]

Well OP, it's been a while since you posted, what do you think the reason(s) are?

That's not what the Chosen People thing means. I find the idea grating, but Jewish dopers have explained this in the past.


It's actually a classical anti-semitic claim. And if you think about it, there's no real reason to take an isolated phrase/ritual out of context and use it as a slur. We'd laugh at people who claimed that all Catholics were cannibals because of the Eucharist. But if Jews have a phrase "the chosen people" then, why, they must have a superiority complex.

[DSeid]

My only experience is that people who call each other "Jews" usually do it because they are.

Why anti-Semitism? (And it is far from gone.)

1) Throughout the Christian world Jews were the "other" in the midst. Oh, Moslems were other also, but for most of those centuries they were the other in other lands, to be massacred on Crusades, not others in the midst. An other in the midst is always handy to have around when things go wrong. Handy enough that the image was even kept alive when they no longer existed in the midst: see "The Merchant of Venice", written long enough after the expulsion of Jews form England that Shakespeare likely never even met a Jew.

2) Jews have had a segment that has been insular (allowing the "clannish" charge); a segment that have become secular and achieved - becoming wealthy (greedy money grubbing Jews), capitalists, Communists (rabble rousing Jews), involved in the media (controlling the news), and so on. Whatever your politics you could find a Jew to hate.

3) Ignorance. Some really do believe the idiocy that has been posted here about the meaning of "Chosen" in the Jewish tradition. (Although I can't say that there was no arrogance in Yiddish tradition: a goyishe kopf is not a compliment, and a Yiddishe kopf meant smart or clever.)

4) Limited contact allowing for a few examples to over-represent a whole (confirmation bias). Amazingly enough there are pushy assholes and greedy obnoxious cheats that are Jewish just like there are one who are every other religion and ethnicity. Expect to see them and you can find them and have your stereotype confirmed.

That's my serious answer, if one was actually desired.

Minky, "just asking questions" has very distinct pedigreed right now. Distinct but not distinguished.

[tomndebb]

Please do not argue with me about what I read in a book. I am just relating what someone else wrote. I thought it offensive and posted it as a reason a bigoted person could use to dislike Jews.No one is arguing with what you read. The argument is with your utterly erroneous interpretation of what you read that is in direct conflict with anything that a Jewish author has ever written on the topic.

I would be very curious as to what was actually written that you so clearly misinterpreted. The notion of the "Chosen people" is never expressed in a way that indicates that the rest of humanity is "shit." Certainly, no writer such as Sholem Aleichem or Leo Rosten ever made such a remark.

The theological meaning of the phrase has always held that the Jews were chosen to act in the most righteous manner possible as an example to the world of the behavior that God wanted. It was generally considered more of an obligation than an exaltation. This is reflected in Tevye's comment to God in Fiddler on the Roof: "I know. I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?"

[Little Nemo]

They were readily available.

For much of western history, they were one of the few recognizably distinct groups that lived among Europeans. So they became an easy target for local bigotry.

[Argent Towers]

Also: Biblical history aside, the Jews of old Europe had no nationhood and therefore no military tradition, and all power and notions of honor were derived from warfare. The heathen Saracens were hated but also feared and therefore respected. The Jews had no such claim to warlike glory; they were a people who lived and died purely at the behest of whatever local leader (whose power was derived from war) happened to be in charge of the Jews' fate.

As a people, the Jews were "feminized," with all the negative connotations that would carry in ages when warrior-kings ruled.

[njtt]

No one is arguing with what you read. The argument is with your utterly erroneous interpretation of what you read that is in direct conflict with anything that a Jewish author has ever written on the topic.

Why do you think it is FE3O4ENAIL's misinterpretation? Why could it not be an explication of the sort of misinterpretation of the concept of "the chosen people" commonly made by anti-semites? (It seems to me that it also may well sometimes be a real factor in tipping some of those people who are not well informed about the subtleties of actual Jewish beliefs - i.e., most gentiles - into anti-semitism. It may not be the right interpretation of the expression. but it is the most prima facie obvious one.) The fact that the notion was found in "a book on yiddish" does not preclude the possibility that the book was written by an anti-semite (they do tend to be rather obsessed with matters Jewish), and even if the book was by a Jew, they may have been attempting to explain one of the sources of anti-semitism.

[FinnAgain]

My only experience is that people who call each other "Jews" usually do it because they are.

I'd wager that the OP (should he ever return) is either European or hangs out on the internet. "Jew" is an insult in some places in Europe. At least, while I was living there I heard it used several times, especially by kids.

On some uglier corner of the 'net (I'm talking video gaming sort of stuff, not st*rmfr*nt), "Jew" is simply mixed into the list of insults along side "nigger" and "faggot".

Then again, a guy I went to college with thought that the proper noun was "Jewish" as he'd only ever heard the word "Jew" used as an insult.

[Tamerlane]

They're always clumsily ( maliciously? ) stepping on my feet with their little cloven hoofs. Thankfully they're a small people on the whole. But still, those things hurt.

And if you're all "hey man, watch where you're treading with your damned ( literally ) feet", they get all indignant and try to gore you with the little horns they're always trying to conceal under their wiry Jew hair.

Jews, man. If they're not leavening their bread with the blood of good Christian babies, they're out charging outrageous vig to solid, upstanding Christian gamblers :(.

[njtt]

Is it not also a factor that since, in the middle ages, usury (lending money at interest) was forbidden to Christians, and many professions were closed to Jews, the necessary economic function of money lending fell largely to Jews? Moneylenders, as they eventually want to be repaid, and with interest, do tend to become unpopular (and this is going to be especially true in a society that thinks usury of any sort is a sin). This also explains why financial meanness and greed, specifically, is such a central part of the negative stereotype of the Jew.

[Hamlet]

If you want the Mods to show a bit less tolerance for one type of poster or another, I suppose we could issue you a Warning as an example of one poster calling another poster an idiot in Great Debates.

I strongly suggest that you back off.

[ /Moderating ]Where is that suprised face smiley?

[BrainGlutton]

"One of the oldest problems puzzled over in the Talmud is: 'Why did God create goyim?' The generally accepted answer is 'somebody has to buy retail.'"

-- Arthur Naiman

[Lust4Life]

Back to the o.p. the only people I know of who retain the outdated Jew hating thing are neo fascists and muslims.

Maybe I'm missing something.

[MinkyBinks735]

If you mean they call each other "jew" derisively, could you please show us an example. If you mean they call each other "jew" because they each believe the other is Jewish...so what?

I don't mean they call eachother because they believe the other person is Jewish. It is used as a negative term. If someone is cheap, they are often called a "jew", and I wondered if it went deeper than that. Or simply if someone is acting like a jerk, "jew" is often thrown around.

[MinkyBinks735]

I'd wager that the OP (should he ever return) is either European or hangs out on the internet. "Jew" is an insult in some places in Europe. At least, while I was living there I heard it used several times, especially by kids.

On some uglier corner of the 'net (I'm talking video gaming sort of stuff, not st*rmfr*nt), "Jew" is simply mixed into the list of insults along side "nigger" and "faggot".

Then again, a guy I went to college with thought that the proper noun was "Jewish" as he'd only ever heard the word "Jew" used as an insult.

I have not heard it on the internet, and I am not European. But from other people, I have heard it used often as an insult along side what you said.

[monstro]

As far as mocking goes, you do see this on The Family Guy very frequently. There is an element of "equal opportunity" offender there (lord knows they have made fun of black people plenty of times), but Jews in particular get more than their fair share. All I can think is that perhaps there are Jewish writers on the show, and Jews--like most ethnic groups--indulge in self-deprecating humor? I don't know.

[MinkyBinks735]

Well OP, it's been a while since you posted, what do you think the reason(s) are?



It's actually a classical anti-semitic claim. And if you think about it, there's no real reason to take an isolated phrase/ritual out of context and use it as a slur. We'd laugh at people who claimed that all Catholics were cannibals because of the Eucharist. But if Jews have a phrase "the chosen people" then, why, they must have a superiority complex.

I thought that it was because Jews were often thought of as greedy and cheap. Which is not a good thing in our society today. Also, because since they were known as "the chosen people" people began to mock them because of it and not take it for real. Almost like a poser of some sort.

[MinkyBinks735]

As far as mocking goes, you do see this on The Family Guy very frequently. There is an element of "equal opportunity" offender there (lord knows they have made fun of black people plenty of times), but Jews in particular get more than their fair share. All I can think is that perhaps there are Jewish writers on the show, and Jews--like most ethnic groups--indulge in self-deprecating humor? I don't know.

yes, my point exactly. As well as on south park. I don't think that there are jewish writers on the show but instead, it is another group to mock. And I never really understood why.

[Marley23]

I don't mean they call eachother because they believe the other person is Jewish. It is used as a negative term. If someone is cheap, they are often called a "jew", and I wondered if it went deeper than that. Or simply if someone is acting like a jerk, "jew" is often thrown around.
It's because the stereotype is that Jews are cheap. It's an insult and there isn't anything else to it.

[Noone Special]

Q. What's the definition of an anti-Semite?
A. One who hates Jews more than necessary :D

[Superfluous Parentheses]

yes, my point exactly. As well as on south park. I don't think that there are jewish writers on the show but instead, it is another group to mock. And I never really understood why.

Matt Stone is Jewish. I recall an interview with the South Park guys about mocking Jews. Matt said he was Jewish, so he was allowed, and Trey said he just didn't like Jews :)

[Ike Witt]

Please do not argue with me about what I read in a book. I am just relating what someone else wrote.

Okay, I'll bite. What book did you read that basically says Jews regard everyone else as 'bags of shit'?

[fumster]

I never said "raping a prostitute is shoplifting." I ASKED it. And if you don't think I am serious, then you can just step off and don't contribute to the thread. I have read every post people have replied to on this thread. And I do care. I have always wondered why the hatred to this specific group of people.Is MinkyBinks735 deliberately stupid and offensive? before you attack me, it's just a question.

[fumster]

I don't mean they call eachother because they believe the other person is Jewish. It is used as a negative term. If someone is cheap, they are often called a "jew", and I wondered if it went deeper than that. Or simply if someone is acting like a jerk, "jew" is often thrown around.Let me guess, in your neighborhood a "house getting robbed" means someone showed up with a hitch and hauled it away.

[Marley23]

Is MinkyBinks735 deliberately stupid and offensive? before you attack me, it's just a question.
Let me guess, in your neighborhood a "house getting robbed" means someone showed up with a hitch and hauled it away.
Please don't make this personal. Take that to the Pit if you think it's necessary.

[carnivorousplant]

Let me guess, in your neighborhood a "house getting robbed" means someone showed up with a hitch and hauled it away.

That is funny because?

[FinnAgain]

I thought that it was because Jews were often thought of as greedy and cheap. Which is not a good thing in our society today. Also, because since they were known as "the chosen people" people began to mock them because of it and not take it for real. Almost like a poser of some sort.

Yes, but those aren't reasons. Racism works backwards and tries to find justifications.
It'd be like saying that some people are racist against blacks because they're often thought of as criminals or being involved with drugs or prone to violent crime. But that puts it in exactly the opposite direction. Because people are racists, they think that blacks are prone to criminality, illegal drug use and violent crime. Because people are anti-semites they think that Jews are cheap, miserly, etc...

I am (somewhat) willing to grant the benefit of the doubt on the phrase "the chosen people", but it does betray a high degree of willful ignorance. Just like one might look askance at someone who was claiming that Catholics are cannibals, even if the mistake was an honest one.

[Rigamarole]

I think it's because observant Jews eat neither bacon nor cheeseburgers. How can you be American if you don't eat bacon and cheeseburgers? Clearly, they hate America.

[BrainGlutton]

Back to the o.p. the only people I know of who retain the outdated Jew hating thing are neo fascists and muslims.

Maybe I'm missing something.

American White Nationalists, neofascist or not, seem to be antisemitic on general principles. There's not much an actual tradition of antisemitism to draw on here, at least not compared to Europe, but the WNs seem to have absorbed certain Nazi attitudes and, in particular, they seem to blame the Jewish string-pullers for the American civil rights movement and integration -- all part of the Jews' plot to dilute the blood of the white race.

[Noone Special]

I think it's because observant Jews eat neither bacon nor cheeseburgers. How can you be American if you don't eat bacon and cheeseburgers? Clearly, they hate America.::Checks calendar:: ... but... we love turkey! :confused: :D

Mmmmm.... bacon!

[BrainGlutton]

::Checks calendar:: ... but... we love turkey! :confused: :D

Mmmmm.... bacon!

"Turkey bacon" is a Jewish plot. :mad:

[Really Not All That Bright]

I'd wager that the OP (should he ever return) is either European or hangs out on the internet. "Jew" is an insult in some places in Europe. At least, while I was living there I heard it used several times, especially by kids.

On some uglier corner of the 'net (I'm talking video gaming sort of stuff, not st*rmfr*nt), "Jew" is simply mixed into the list of insults along side "nigger" and "faggot".

Then again, a guy I went to college with thought that the proper noun was "Jewish" as he'd only ever heard the word "Jew" used as an insult.
In college (in the US), I heard "Jew" used as an insult all the time, though nearly always referencing the skinflint stereotype.

"How dare you Jew me out of a dollar!", etc.

I didn't hear it once in Britain, although I presume there are much more anti-Semitic countries in Europe.

[MinkyBinks735]

Is MinkyBinks735 deliberately stupid and offensive? before you attack me, it's just a question.

no and no

[Capitaine Zombie]

Back to the o.p. the only people I know of who retain the outdated Jew hating thing are neo fascists and muslims.

Maybe I'm missing something.

Except that in the case of Muslims, it's not an outdated trope dating from the Middle Ages (no specific anitsemitism history in the Muslim world, though there were anti Jews pogroms or attacks in "Muslim history", nothing comparable with Europe's history though).
It is a recent one, completely linked to Israel and the Palestinians. And for decades, it had nothing to do with religion but with specific geopolitics (the whole Muslim angle on the so called confrontation between West and East is recent, dates at the very earliest from the mid eighties). In short antisemitim in the Arab-Muslim world has little to do with traditional Western antisemitism, though it now tends to resurrect the "arguments" of the latter.

[Markxxx]

Even the Family Circus (http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/8792/3670.jpg) has covered this

[Czarcasm]

no and noSo why don't you go ahead and give your opinion on the matter? Do you think that the bad reputation the Jews have among some is totally justified, partially justified, or not justified at all?

[Morgenstern]

I don't get it. Buy low, sell high is good business. Why do the Jews get credit for inventing this?

[GreenHell]

There were some financial reasons. Jews were involved in banking at a time when Christians observed a self-imposed ban on taking interest. Since banking can be lucrative and was considered dis-reputable and mostly Jews were involved in it, there was a mixture of distaste and jealousy directed against them.

Plague was also a factor. Bubonic plague is believed to have come from the Middle East. Jews were much less impacted by it for several reasons. They were naturally more resistant to it, their ancestors having been exposed to it occasionally in the past. Secondly, the rituals they observed regarding hygeine may have offered protection that the Europeans (who at the time were virtually oblivious to any hygiene to speak of) did not have. Thirdly, the Jews often lived outside of the city proper and were not exposed to the pathogen as extensively as those living where local population density was higher.

They killed Jesus. You might think that Jesus being Jewish might negate this, but applying logic to prejudice often has remarkably little impact.:rolleyes:

[FE3O4ENAIL]

Okay, I'll bite. What book did you read that basically says Jews regard everyone else as 'bags of shit'?

Give me a few days, I will get an exact quote, title, and author.

[FE3O4ENAIL]

_Born to kvetch_ is the title. I will have to do more research on the passage that I refered to.

[carnivorousplant]

_Born to kvetch_ is the title. I will have to do more research on the passage that I refered to.

I eagerly await your quote. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_to_Kvetch) :)

[FinnAgain]

Except that in the case of Muslims, it's not an outdated trope dating from the Middle Ages (no specific anitsemitism history in the Muslim world, though there were anti Jews pogroms or attacks in "Muslim history", nothing comparable with Europe's history though).

This is not accurate. Anti Jewish sentiments in the middle east were different from those in Europe but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a legacy of religrious discrimination. Just that it came in a
different flavor.
Western anti-semitism found such fertile soil precisely because the general dynamic was accepted.

Nor is a phenomena that predates 48, by quite a bit, "completely" linked to it. Nor would that matter even if true "People hate blacks because of demands for reperations/crime/gangsta rap/Rwanda." not only lacks logical coherence and persuasive power, it is, to put it mildly, the worst type of nonsense. Trying to explain/justify/describe racism in terms of politics is like dancing about architecrure.

[MinkyBinks735]

Let me guess, in your neighborhood a "house getting robbed" means someone showed up with a hitch and hauled it away.

actually it is not

[MinkyBinks735]

Yes, but those aren't reasons. Racism works backwards and tries to find justifications.
It'd be like saying that some people are racist against blacks because they're often thought of as criminals or being involved with drugs or prone to violent crime. But that puts it in exactly the opposite direction. Because people are racists, they think that blacks are prone to criminality, illegal drug use and violent crime. Because people are anti-semites they think that Jews are cheap, miserly, etc...

I am (somewhat) willing to grant the benefit of the doubt on the phrase "the chosen people", but it does betray a high degree of willful ignorance. Just like one might look askance at someone who was claiming that Catholics are cannibals, even if the mistake was an honest one.

Ok. I understand. Thank You, that was very helpful

[MinkyBinks735]

In college (in the US), I heard "Jew" used as an insult all the time, though nearly always referencing the skinflint stereotype.

"How dare you Jew me out of a dollar!", etc.

I didn't hear it once in Britain, although I presume there are much more anti-Semitic countries in Europe.

Yes, in the US it is used very often, that is why i brought it up. I have been told that the majority of places outside of US don't use it that way very much

[MinkyBinks735]

So why don't you go ahead and give your opinion on the matter? Do you think that the bad reputation the Jews have among some is totally justified, partially justified, or not justified at all?

I do not know why the jews get mocked, hence why i posted it as a question. if i knew the answer there would be no point in posting this. go back and look at my comments. i have posted "my stance" on here enough already.

[Marley23]

Yes, in the US it is used very often, that is why i brought it up. I have been told that the majority of places outside of US don't use it that way very much
The U.S. has more Jews than any other country, and you wouldn't expect to hear this in Israel. There aren't that many Jews anywhere else, at least in the grand scheme of things.

[BrainGlutton]

I do not know why the jews get mocked . . .

Every ethnic group is mocked to some degree. A more interesting question is: Why are the Jews the one ethnic group that produces most of their own ethnic humor? Any given Polish joke probably was not invented by a Pole, but any Jewish joke (beyond the most pedestrian "Why do Jews have large noses?"* variety) is very likely the work of a Jew. In the U.S., at least.




*Because air is free!

[Tamerlane]

This is not accurate. Anti Jewish sentiments in the middle east were different from those in Europe but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a legacy of religrious discrimination. Just that it came in a different flavor.
Western anti-semitism found such fertile soil precisely because the general dynamic was accepted.

Right. Muslim/Jewish relations were generally better than Christian/Jewish ones and pogroms were rarer until modern history, but they weren't trouble free. In general medieval Muslim attitudes towards Jews can probably be generally summed up as one of tolerant contempt. There were times of relatively high achievement by Jews in Muslim service ( i.e. as in some of the Taifa states of Spain ), but not infrequently they were followed up by repressive backlashes ( as with the Almoravids that absorbed the Taifa states ), often as the general population objected to Jews being in power above them.

Most typically anti-Jewish sentiment in Muslim areas tended to start with local Christians, spread to the poorer Muslims and then up the economic chain, with usually the government being the last to react under pressure ( for most Muslim governments Jewish subjects were "safe" and productive, hence worth protecting up to a point ). Not surprisingly it was politically chaotic and/or economically stressed times that tended to provoke the most animosity in the lower classes.

Accordingly we see European-style anti-semitism really starting to spread in the Muslim world starting with the late 18th-19th century, during a prolonged period of political weakness and economic disruption. This was also the period that witnessed the spread of ethnic nationalism to the region, which likely contributed as well. For example it appears that it was only in the 19th century ( i.e. the Damascus Affair of 1840 ) that the blood libel appears to have been imported into the Muslim Middle East via subject Christians.

The founding of Israel undoubtedly accelerated and fed this new-style anti-semitism, but it had been building for some time before that.

[Trepa Mayfield]

Trying to explain/justify/describe racism in terms of politics is like dancing about architecrure.

Um...what?

[FE3O4ENAIL]

I will have to go to the library to get the quote about Jews being Holy and Gentiles being profane.
That part I stand by as being in the book.

( Please think of John Cleese being held out of a window , upside down, by his ankles as you read the following backpedal)
The " bag of shit " part , after some thought, is no where in the book.
It is a completely erronous interpretation of what was written.
I admit that the error is fully mine, and I apologise for making it.
I deeply regret my lack of understanding.

[FinnAgain]

Um...what?

Exactly

[FE3O4ENAIL]

I eagerly await your quote. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_to_Kvetch) :)

I will have to go to the library to get the quote about Jews being Holy and Gentiles being profane.
That part I stand by as being in the book.

( Please think of John Cleese being held out of a window , upside down, by his ankles as you read the following backpedal)
The " bag of shit " part , after some thought, is no where in the book.
It is a completely erronous interpretation of what was written.
I admit that the error is fully mine, and I apologise for making it.
I deeply regret my lack of understanding.

[carnivorousplant]

The " bag of shit " part , after some thought, is no where in the book.
It is a completely erronous interpretation of what was written.
I admit that the error is fully mine, and I apologise for making it.
I deeply regret my lack of understanding.

That's what I thought wouldn't be in that book.
Thanks!


And, do you know why most Jewish husbands die before their wives?
They want to!

[DSeid]

As an aside, portions of that book are available via google books on-line. The author certainly does make the point that there were many phrases similar to the insult of having a goyishe kopf. Yiddishe also referenced the Catholic concept of transubstantiation, wine turning into the blood of Christ, as a substitute for calling someone's ideas bullshit. Yiddish speakers did not think highly of the Catholics around them all the time. But the author's point was that they got away with blasphemy because it was such a private code of a language. No, the denigration of Catholic practices by some elements of Yiddish culture did not provoke anti-Semitism; it was a private kvetching reaction to it.

[FE3O4ENAIL]

That's what I thought wouldn't be in that book.
Thanks!
want to!

And I thank you for letting me be wrong.
(note to self, think before you post, ok?)
Growing up, I never understood the hate that was felt for the Jews.
I still don't.

[MinkyBinks735]

And I thank you for letting me be wrong.
(note to self, think before you post, ok?)
Growing up, I never understood the hate that was felt for the Jews.
I still don't.

either do I. thats why i posted it

[tomndebb]

Why do you think it is FE3O4ENAIL's misinterpretation? Why could it not be an explication of the sort of misinterpretation of the concept of "the chosen people" commonly made by anti-semites? FE3O4ENAIL specifically linked the reference to a book that had a specific Yiddish connection. I have read quite a bit of Yiddish literature, (in English ranslation), as well as many books by people whose first or second language was Yiddish, and I have never encountered a meaning similar to "better than the other guys" for "Chosen people" in any of those works. Therefore, I presume that an interpretation of "Chosen people" to mean "better than the goyim" is an error in interpretation.
As implied by several of FE3O4ENAIL's subsequent posts, there may, indeed, be an attitude within the Jewish community that they--being the victims of persecution--may be morally superior to their persecutors, (an attitude that is probably fiarly common among all humans), but until I see an actual quote that links that attitude to the phrase "Chosen people," I am going to be skeptical of a claim that Jews actually hold a belief that their relationship to God, (as opposed to their suffering in the face of persecution), makes them superior to other people.

[carnivorousplant]

I heard the author interviewed on NPR. What I remember was his describing something in the Torah/Old Testament. G-d gave some unpopular commandment to the the Jews while they wandered in the desert. The King James version erroneously translates it as "The people of Israel murmured" while the correct translation is, "The people of Israel Kvetched".
:)

[FinnAgain]

Right.

Oh, and thanks. As usual your level of knowledge and facility with the topic is an example of what makes this message board an awesome place. I'd like it if Zombie would retract his false claims too, but I suppose I shouldn't be greedy. :D

[Belowjob2.0]

Kevin MacDonald, tenured psych prof at Cal State Long Beach, has built his career on explaining why people hate Jews, and why Jews deserve to be hated. It's shocking to see otherwise rational, well educated men in positions of authority advocating such hateful ideologies. Well, it used to be shocking. Now, not so much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Critique_series


The first three books constitute what is known as MacDonald's "trilogy." This trilogy he describes Judaism as a "group evolutionary strategy" to enhance the ability of Jews to out-compete non-Jews for resources. He argues that Judaism fosters in Jews a series of marked genetic traits, including above-average verbal intelligence and a strong tendency toward collectivist behavior. MacDonald also notes a negative shift in tone from the first book to the third, and attributes it to having learned more, read more, and "changed greatly" in that time. Macdonald's trilogy has been described as significant for "its potential to forge a standardized anti-Semitic critique in the far right."[6]


"Toward the end of the third book, MacDonald lays out his solution for restoring what he calls 'parity' between the Jews and other ethnic groups: systematic discrimination against Jews in college admission and employment and heavy taxation of Jews 'to counter the Jewish advantage in the possession of wealth'".[8] MacDonald replied that in the actual passage from The Culture of Critique quoted by Shulevitz, he was speaking hypothetically of the consequences of competition between ethnic groups of differing abilities.[9]

[Lust4Life]

yes, my point exactly. As well as on south park. I don't think that there are jewish writers on the show but instead, it is another group to mock. And I never really understood why.

The voice actor of Lois. (can't think of her name this minute is Jewish)

[Little Nemo]

The voice actor of Lois. (can't think of her name this minute is Jewish)Alex Borstein

[FE3O4ENAIL]

On page 175 of Born to kvetch by Michael Wex there is:
"As the voice of a system of thought designed to keep Us Jews from turning into Them Goyim, Yiddish has developed an unusually comprehensive vocabulary of exclusion. Differences between yidish and goyish, sacred and profane, proper and improper, are built into the structure of the language, nowhere more deeply than when Yiddish deals with food."

I took that to mean that on one hand, Jews (yidish) are sacred and proper, and on the other hand, non Jews (goyish) are profane and improper.

[carnivorousplant]

On page 175 of Born to kvetch by Michael Wex there is:
"As the voice of a system of thought designed to keep Us Jews from turning into Them Goyim, Yiddish has developed an unusually comprehensive vocabulary of exclusion. Differences between yidish and goyish, sacred and profane, proper and improper, are built into the structure of the language, nowhere more deeply than when Yiddish deals with food."

I took that to mean that on one hand, Jews (yidish) are sacred and proper, and on the other hand, non Jews (goyish) are profane and improper.

I believe it to be a literary reference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred-profane_dichotomy) to "us and them." It is also often used to differentiate between religious and social practices or issues.

In Durkheim's theory, the sacred represented the interests of the group, especially unity, which were embodied in sacred group symbols, or totems. The profane, on the other hand, involved mundane individual concerns.

[FE3O4ENAIL]

I believe it to be a literary reference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred-profane_dichotomy) to "us and them." It is also often used to differentiate between religious and social practices or issues.

Sounds accurate to me.
I just wanted to return with a quote, as I commited to.
Rereading the book also shows that The Chosen People is not about being better, but having many more rules and responsibilities.

[carnivorousplant]

Sounds accurate to me.
I just wanted to return with a quote, as I commited to.
Rereading the book also shows that The Chosen People is not about being better, but having many more rules and responsibilities.

Thank you.
You are a gentleman and a scholar. :)

[FE3O4ENAIL]

Thank you.
You are a gentleman and a scholar. :)

Thanks, thats much kinder than "dumbass who needs to read a book twice to understand what was written".:)

[hajario]

I appreciate that you were willing to go back, learn and reconsider, FE3O4ENAIL. In the passage that you cited, "Yiddish and Goyish" and "sacred and profane" are two different categories that don't necessarily match one to one.

[Damuri Ajashi]

I think that a lot of it is jealousy. Jews are a miniscule minority of most populations and are highly represented among the wealthy and professional classes. Same with competitive schools.

Add to that the fact that a lot of people don't know a lot about Jews except that they don't go to church (heck even the niggers, chinks and spics go to church) and you can convince some folks to believe anything about them, blame them for everything.

If Jews didn't exist, the anti-semites would have to invent Jews in order for the world to make sense to them.

[BrainGlutton]

Whether "Chosen People" means extra privileges or extra duties, why is there such a thing? That is, is there any Jewish doctrine on why God has to have a Chosen People?

[Capitaine Zombie]

If Jews didn't exist, the anti-semites would have to invent Jews in order for the world to make sense to them.


You mean Jews were invented by the anti-semites? Darn, I always knew there was something fishy about them.

[DSeid]

The tradition is that one people was Chosen to receive the knowledge of one God, and by so doing to enter into a contract with the one God. Why God chose Abraham and his descendants is never made clear.

From the POV of thinking about why a culture would have a key aspect of its mythology be being Chosen to taken on special obligations? Well most religions share a founding story that identifies the in-group as being different than those who make up "the others". It's part of what religions, heck any -isms, do: define why the "us" is different than the "them". And certainly the Torah (Old Testament to Christians) is full of examples in which being "us" justified lots of violence against various "thems". The interesting thing is that modern Judaism, which really doesn't get going until hundreds of years after the Diaspora began, uses it more as a means of maintaining an identity in Diaspora, not as a justification for poor treatment of others but as a means of maintaining their differentness spread out amidst many other cultures and in the face of persecution. The spin became that others are obligated only to follow a few basic rules but "we" have our own extra sets of rules, our own level of ethics and codes of behavior to follow because that was the deal we made and that is that.

CZ, Einstein made the point on many occasions: "Perhaps it is thanks to anti-Semitism that we can preserve ourselves ..." If not for anti-Semites, he believed, Jews would have assimilated and disappeared as a people, many years ago. He also had this (http://www.zionism-israel.com/Albert_Einstein/Albert_Einstein_Jews.htm) to say:It seems obvious to me that Jews make an ideal scapegoat for any country experiencing social, economic, or political difficulties. The reason for this is twofold. First of all, there is hardly a country in the world that does not have a Jewish segment in the population. And secondly, wherever Jews reside, they are a minority of the population, and a small minority at that, so that they are not powerful enough to defend themselves against a mass attack. It is very easy for governments to divert attention from their own mistakes by blaming Jews for this or that political theory, such as communism or socialism.

For instance, after the First World War, many Germans accused the Jews first of starting the war and then of losing it. This is nothing new, of course. Throughout history, Jews have been accused of all sorts of treachery, such as poisoning water wells or murdering children as religious sacrifices. Much of this can be attributed to jealousy, because, despite the fact that Jewish people have always been thinly populated in various countries, they have always had a disproportionate number of outstanding public figures.FWIW.

[tomndebb]

Whether "Chosen People" means extra privileges or extra duties, why is there such a thing? That is, is there any Jewish doctrine on why God has to have a Chosen People?I'm sorry, but this seems like a bit of a silly question. A group includes in its mythology that it is the chosen of a god and you want an answer to why a god needs to choose anyone? What sort of answer would you expect?

To the extent that there is a "why?" answer, it would probably come down to the story of Abraham, in which the Lord finds a completely faithful man and rewards him for that faith.
Later generations consider that promise from the Lord and come to the conclusion that the choice places an obligation on them to commit to righteousness.

The only real difference between their mythology and the mythologies of other nations such as Great Britain or the United States is that they actually expended some effort to come up with the theme of obligation, unlike themes in which other societies seem to indulge (such as Manifest Destiny).

[BrainGlutton]

I'm sorry, but this seems like a bit of a silly question. A group includes in its mythology that it is the chosen of a god and you want an answer to why a god needs to choose anyone? What sort of answer would you expect?

A thoughtful one, taking up several pages of commentaries in the Talmud.

[FinnAgain]

Knock yourself out. (http://www.come-and-hear.com/talmud/index.html)