"Second Amendment Remedies" [re: Arizona Shooting]

[sleeping]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47244.html

[Fear Itself]

And the Republican governor gets to appoint a replacement.

[Snarky_Kong]

Don't you think you should hold off on the accusation until more information comes out?

[Martin Hyde]

What's with the thread title? I was unaware of Congresswoman Giffords until now, but a quick search on her indicates that despite her party affiliation she is fairly pro-Gun Ownership (opposed the D.C. gun ban.)

Based on the story it sounds like 12 people were shot, I highly doubt it was someone trying to make some sort of political statement on gun ownership.

[sleeping]

What's with the thread title? I was unaware of Congresswoman Giffords until now, but a quick search on her indicates that despite her party affiliation she is fairly pro-Gun Ownership (opposed the D.C. gun ban.)

Based on the story it sounds like 12 people were shot, I highly doubt it was someone trying to make some sort of political statement on gun ownership.

Indeed, it seems she was. But people can get violent over many issues, and a shooter need not be protesting restrictions on gun ownership.

[Erdosain]

Without information on the shooter, this could mean anything. Maybe he was scared of lizard people taking over the government. There will be years to discuss the meaning of this assassination. It seems premature in the extreme to call it politically motivated when it could've just as easily been psychotically motivated.

[Inner Stickler]

He's referencing the fact that some conservative pundits and politicians have made remarks to the effect of armed rebellion is the only way to curb the socialist expansion in America. Not a commentary on the second amendment itself.

[sleeping]

It seems premature in the extreme to call it politically motivated when it could just as easily been psychotically motivated.

The two seem to have been conflated, of late.

[Fear Itself]

This is the second time Giffords has been targeted with gunshots. Her office was vandalized, and shots fired following her vote for health care reform.

I think we are going down the road to civil war.

[ExTank]

What's with the thread title? I was unaware of Congresswoman Giffords until now, but a quick search on her indicates that despite her party affiliation she is fairly pro-Gun Ownership (opposed the D.C. gun ban.)

Based on the story it sounds like 12 people were shot, I highly doubt it was someone trying to make some sort of political statement on gun ownership.

Indeed. It seems much more in character of a lone nutter who could have just as easily have shot up a business/place of employment, a mall, or a school yard.

If it was politically motivated...I do believe Arizona has a death penalty on their books. And I don't think it would be too good for him.

[wipetheclock]

I think we are going down the road to civil war.

Really? Shootings, mail bombs, and threats are scary but a handful of nuts does not civil war make.

[Der Trihs]

Indeed. It seems much more in character of a lone nutter who could have just as easily have shot up a business/place of employment, a mall, or a school yard.

If it was politically motivated...I do believe Arizona has a death penalty on their books. And I don't think it would be too good for him.And what is the likelihood that they'll execute someone guilty of right wing violence? If he'd shot a Republican maybe, but they'll do everything they can to let him off easy.

[Fear Itself]

Really? Shootings, mail bombs, and threats are scary but a handful of nuts does not civil war make.When it is up close and personal like a bullet to the head, it has a much more inflammatory effect than an anonymous letter bomb.

I think there will be retaliation. There is no shortage of extremists on the left, in spite of the hippie-dippy peacenik caricature that is popular on the right. I remember the Weathermen.

[sleeping]

And what is the likelihood that they'll execute someone guilty of right wing violence? If he'd shot a Republican maybe, but they'll do everything they can to let him off easy.

Do I think it's some right-winger/teabagger? Yeah, I'd bet on it. But, without discounting the political orientation of those most frequently responsible for violence, I do think it's also a question of what sort of society we want to encourage. Regardless of the guy's political beliefs, the blame rests with those who have spent the last two years implicitly and explicitly encouraging violence: Glenn Beck, Michelle Bachman, Sharon Angle, Palin, etc. Even his beliefs are off the political map (e.g., David Icke's lizard people), this is still the kind of personality that has found comfort and confidence in the words of such people.

[pepperlandgirl]

Maybe this will be the event that prompts all the fucking rightwing retards to cool their stupid fucking kill-them-all-and-let-God-sort-it-out rhetoric?

Yeah, right, I know. I'm sure Palin and Glenn Beck will see this is as the first clear victory in the glorious revolution.

[Fear Itself]

Giffords is dead.

[sleeping]

I think there will be retaliation. There is no shortage of extremists on the left, in spite of the hippie-dippy peacenik caricature that is popular on the right. I remember the Weathermen.

Maybe, but it doesn't seem likely to me. At least right now, there is no militant left of the size that existed in the 70s. That said, some kind of guerilla-based civil war would erupt if such a retaliation occurred.

Personally, I support vigorous protest, and destruction of property in certain cases. But I hope that no such (murderous) retaliation happens.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Can we stop with the pre-overreaction? For all we know the shooter is a Democrat.

[Captain Amazing]

And the Republican governor gets to appoint a replacement.

No. She's a congresswoman. The seat will be vacant until a special election is held.

[River Hippie]

My prediction...some lone nutball that listens to right wing radio and Fox news all day and fancies himself a patriot and a freedom fighter but is unaffiliated with any organized right wing group.

Just guessing at this point.

[Palo Verde]

I'm local in Tucson and local rumor is that the shooter is a young man, late teens to early 20s.

[ExTank]

And what is the likelihood that they'll execute someone guilty of right wing violence? If he'd shot a Republican maybe, but they'll do everything they can to let him off easy.

Eric Robert Rudolph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph#Arrest_and_guilty_plea), the right-wing abortion clinic bomber, only avoided the DP by plea arrangement. He got 4 consecutive life sentences instead.

Two of the three racist scum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Byrd,_Jr.) who murdered James Byrd, Jr., are on death row; the other is in for life with parol eligibility in 2038, and only gets to breathe fresh air for one hour a day, as he is in protective custody even in prison.

While neither pro-life sentiment or racism is a "right wing" trait (except for in your mind, and other rabidly left-wing partisan hacks), both of these instances should indicate a willingness for the general public at large to punish so-called "right-wing" violence as well.

[Jonathan Chance]

I wish we had more information. There can be a huge difference between a random act of violence and a politically motivated killing. Note, though, that during the health care debate (such as it was) Giffords had a brick thrown through her window.

I wonder whether, if it turns out to be politically motivated, it would fall under any terrorist statutes.

[Walmarticus]

I'm hoping it's not politically motivated. I'm not even going to speculate- it's so shitty to consider.

[Really Not All That Bright]

While neither pro-life sentiment or racism is a "right wing" trait (except for in your mind, and other rabidly left-wing partisan hacks)...
I must be a rabid left wing partisan hack, because I'm pretty sure pro-life sentiment is a right-wing point of view.

[Baron Greenback]

I'll just leave Sarah Palin's Facebook page here:

http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/dont-get-demoralized-get-organized-take-back-the-20/373854973434

That's a nice target you got on the congresswoman there, Sarah.

[El_Kabong]

I wish we had more information. There can be a huge difference between a random act of violence and a politically motivated killing. Note, though, that during the health care debate (such as it was) Giffords had a brick thrown through her window.

I wonder whether, if it turns out to be politically motivated, it would fall under any terrorist statutes.

Since the shooter apparently is in custody and alive, I am fairly certain we'll have within the next day or so a pretty clear idea as to the background of and motivation for this attack.

[ExTank]

I must be a rabid left wing partisan hack, because I'm pretty sure pro-life sentiment is a right-wing point of view.

Ipso facto.

Personally, I've seen enough pro-life bumper stickers side-by-side with Obama/Biden stickers on the backs of vehicles to get the impression that it isn't universally true that pro-life = right-wing/conservative.

I also see enough pro-second amendment stickers next to Obama/Biden stickers to also get the impression that it isn't universally true that pro-second amendment = right-wing/conservative.

Maybe I'm just getting wisdom in my incipient decrepitude (it must be the growing number of gray hairs that I'm too lazy or insufficiently vain to get rid of), but I've come to realize that people, in general, and all the issues that they believe in, are not cookie-cutter caricatures of sharply delineated political/religious/social beliefes.

Exceptions abound, of course; feel free to join either camp as your whim takes you.

[Mr. Moto]

That's a nice target you got on the congresswoman there, Sarah.

You've heard of this place, right? (http://www.target.com/)

Sometimes a target is just a target.

[Little Nemo]

And what is the likelihood that they'll execute someone guilty of right wing violence? If he'd shot a Republican maybe, but they'll do everything they can to let him off easy.You're not cynical enough. The Republicans will be shouting out for his execution in order to distance themselves from the murder.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Now you're just being silly. No political position is universally associated with one side or the other. There are liberals who think taxes are too high and conservatives who insist on on-demand abortion. The point remains.

[Bosstone]

What? You people are talking about the issues?

She had a D attached to her name. That makes her a Goddamned Socialist Who's Destroying America. Who fucking cares what she actually stood for? She's a Democrat. She was scum.

This was a nut who got fed enough bullshit to believe that what he did was Right and Just and Protecting God's America. I'll be glad to be proven wrong, but I don't think I will.

[MsRobyn]

Because Rep. Giffords is a federal official, jurisdiction will likely fall to the federal justice system, not the state's. First-degree murder is punishable by life imprisonment or the death penalty; second-degree murder is punishable by life imprisonment. Even if she survives, her assailant will spend a very long time in prison.

The state does have jurisdiction over any non-federal victims, and so the assailant may be looking at the death penalty anyway.

[Der Trihs]

You've heard of this place, right? (http://www.target.com/)

Sometimes a target is just a target.
The right wing has been threatening and occasionally indulging in violence against its political opponents for many years. When they slap a target on something, it's meant as a threat. This is I'm sure exactly what Sarah Palin and her fellow right wingers were hoping for.

[NurseCarmen]

You've heard of this place, right? (http://www.target.com/)

Sometimes a target is just a target.You don't recognize a gun scope sight? You really have to disassociate yourself from realty to claim those are anything other than that.

[Baron Greenback]

You've heard of this place, right? (http://www.target.com/)

Sometimes a target is just a target.

And sometimes a target is a target. Keep raising the temperature of domestic politics, and well, there may be consequences. Mind you, I'm not American, and nobody knows really what happened here, but keep on trucking Republicans!

[sleeping]

Because Rep. Giffords is a federal official, jurisdiction will likely fall to the federal justice system, not the state's. First-degree murder is punishable by life imprisonment or the death penalty; second-degree murder is punishable by life imprisonment. Even if she survives, her assailant will spend a very long time in prison.

The state does have jurisdiction over any non-federal victims, and so the assailant may be looking at the death penalty anyway.

I want the person brought to justice, but I don't much care whether he gets a life sentence or the death penalty. Rather, I want a light shined on the hatemongers who promote fear and greed. They've broken no laws, but they have seriously damaged our society.

[Bosstone]

You're not cynical enough. The Republicans will be shouting out for his execution in order to distance themselves from the murder.I don't care about Republican politicians myself. Some of them are assholes, but I'm willing to bet not all are.

What I want to see is Palin and Beck and FOX condemning this. I want them to say "This was wrong, this shouldn't have happened." I want the stupid bitch who made "Don't retreat, reload" into a catchphrase to say out loud that this wasn't what she meant and that the guy deserves execution.

I don't think it'll happen, though. They'll use plenty of circular language, but it'll boil down to "Well, if she hadn't been destroying America, this wouldn't have happened."

ETA: And while, yes, I'm fully prepared to believe it was a single nut who was completely off his rocker, it only takes one violent act in the wrong place at the wrong time to incite mass violence. Shot heard 'round the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_heard_%27round_the_world), anyone?

[waterj2]

There are conflicting reports on whether she is dead or in surgery at a hospital. I'm still hopeful that she is indeed alive.

[ExTank]

What? You people are talking about the issues?

She had a D attached to her name. That makes her a Goddamned Socialist Who's Destroying America. Who fucking cares what she actually stood for? She's a Democrat. She was scum.

This was a nut who got fed enough bullshit to believe that what he did was Right and Just and Protecting God's America. I'll be glad to be proven wrong, but I don't think I will.

Will you? Wil you really be glad to be proven wrong? From the tone of several posters, I get a pretty good impression that they would just love for this to be about partisan politics played out in graphic violence, to some political point-keeping end.

If that's the case, the only moral leg up they have on the shooter (and his so-far unconfirmed motives) is that they haven't actually killed anyone.

And if they are hoping for this kind of violence to be about politics, well, to my mind, that makes them the same kind of scum they accuse their opponents of being.

[MsWhatsit]

I'll just leave Sarah Palin's Facebook page here:

http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/dont-get-demoralized-get-organized-take-back-the-20/373854973434

That's a nice target you got on the congresswoman there, Sarah.

Wow. That is...not cool.

Yes, sometimes a target is "just a target," as when a major retail corporation chooses to use it as a logo. Sometimes, however, when it is in the format of rifle cross-hairs centered over the names of politicians that you would like to be removed, it is somewhat more troublesome. When one of those politicians actually gets shot, I don't think it's outrageous to point out the connection.

That said, I'm holding off on outrage until we figure out what the guy's real motivation was. The fact that Giffords' office was previously vandalized and shot is making me think it's not that likely that this guy is just an "impress Jodie Foster" style psychopath, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Blalron]

You've heard of this place, right? (http://www.target.com/)

Sometimes a target is just a target.

Sarah Palin's targets are specifically directed towards particular Congresspeople. The Target logo doesn't have any human targets.

[Bosstone]

Will you? Wil you really be glad to be proven wrong? From the tone of several posters, I get a pretty good impression that they would just love for this to be about partisan politics played out in graphic violence, to some political point-keeping end.

If that's the case, the only moral leg up they have on the shooter (and his so-far unconfirmed motives) is that they haven't actually killed anyone.

And if they are hoping for this kind of violence to be about politics, well, to my mind, that makes them the same kind of scum they accuse their opponents of being.There is a certain grim satisfaction in being proven right, yes. It's vastly outweighed by the sorrow and anger that the shit has devolved to this level.

It shouldn't take a politically-motivated death to make people understand that they have been acting absolutely fucking insane for the last decade.

[sleeping]

You've heard of this place, right? (http://www.target.com/)

Sometimes a target is just a target.

So, Sarah was just protesting the incursion of Target department stores into small-town America? Or maybe the targets were for the best locations to shoot wolves from a helicopter? Even for a smokescreen, this is pretty thin.

[pepperlandgirl]

Will you? Wil you really be glad to be proven wrong? From the tone of several posters, I get a pretty good impression that they would just love for this to be about partisan politics played out in graphic violence, to some political point-keeping end.

If that's the case, the only moral leg up they have on the shooter (and his so-far unconfirmed motives) is that they haven't actually killed anyone.

And if they are hoping for this kind of violence to be about politics, well, to my mind, that makes them the same kind of scum they accuse their opponents of being.

You're an idiot.

[DxZero]

So, Sarah was just protesting the incursion of Target department stores into small-town America? Or maybe the targets were for the best locations to shoot wolves from a helicopter? Even for a smokescreen, this is pretty thin.

And those hunting locations had specific Congresspeople's names linked to them...

[ElvisL1ves]

From the tone of several posters, I get a pretty good impression that they would just love for this to be about partisan politics played out in graphic violence, to some political point-keeping end.
Then you once again fail to understand a view not in keeping with your preferred interpretation of the Second Amendment. NO ONE here wants what you say to be true, you hatefilled asswipe. But a lot of us do EXPECT to find out that it is. And nobody but the "Second Amendment remedies" faction you are, shall we say, uncomfortably close to being a part of would consider it "point-keeping".

Now do try to be less of a fool. :rolleyes:

[sleeping]

That said, I'm holding off on outrage until we figure out what the guy's real motivation was. The fact that Giffords' office was previously vandalized and shot is making me think it's not that likely that this guy is just an "impress Jodie Foster" style psychopath, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.

As I said, even if it is a lone nutjob (a word that has become increasingly nebulous as Glenn Beck has become mainstream), whose views have little overlap with official Republican dogma, the right-wing leaders who have been spewing venomous lies are still responsible. They have decided to bank on the energies of the crazed and malicious, and this result is inevitable.

[xenophon41]

Will you? Wil you really be glad to be proven wrong? From the tone of several posters, I get a pretty good impression that they would just love for this to be about partisan politics played out in graphic violence, to some political point-keeping end.
I didn't expect to see such typical rightwing bullshit reaction to statements of inconvenient fact from a sane poster, but life's been full of surprises lately.

If that's the case, the only moral leg up they have on the shooter (and his so-far unconfirmed motives) is that they haven't actually killed anyone.Well I guess they'll have to get by on the illusion that not killing people because of their politics makes them better people.

Jackwagon.

[NurseCarmen]

ExTank, you look like an ass clown by even attempting to spin this.

[MsRobyn]

Will you? Wil you really be glad to be proven wrong? From the tone of several posters, I get a pretty good impression that they would just love for this to be about partisan politics played out in graphic violence, to some political point-keeping end.

If that's the case, the only moral leg up they have on the shooter (and his so-far unconfirmed motives) is that they haven't actually killed anyone.

And if they are hoping for this kind of violence to be about politics, well, to my mind, that makes them the same kind of scum they accuse their opponents of being.

Jesus Christ, you're stupid.

This IS about politics, whether you like it or not. A sitting Congresswoman was shot at a public event for her constituents. We may not know much about the shooter -- and I'm holding off on any judgment until the police have interrogated him -- but it's not likely she was shot as an innocent bystander.

Frankly, this horrible event is going to be used by political opportunists on both sides. That's just the nature of the current political climate, a climate that has been fostered by both sides.

Stop humping that straw man. It's unseemly.

[Grumman]

From the other thread:
In other words, you are embarrassed to see the real results of your precious Second Amendment.
Real classy, Der Trihs. What's next, "That bitch had it coming"?

[Bosstone]

From the other thread:

Real classy, Der Trihs. What's next, "That bitch had it coming"?One follows from the other how?

[ExTank]

I didn't expect to see such typical rightwing bullshit reaction to statements of inconvenient fact from a sane poster, but life's been full of surprises lately.

Unfortunately, I have come to expect left-wing knee-jerk "OMG the righties are at it again!" rhetoric from lots of otherwise sane-sounding people on this board.

Just look at the OP. Without a single piece of evidence out yet as to the motives of the shooter, it's all about right-wing hate.

And I'm the jackwagon here for pointing that out? Fior trying to put a dose of moderation and perspective on the issue? For saying, "wait until we know some more before rushing to judgement?"

Look, FWIW I agree that the level of rhetoric in political discourse has gotten pretty skewed, and I'm willing to lay blame equaly on both sides. Just because I happen to believe strongly in something that is typically related to one side doesn't automatically make me an ardent partisan believer in everything that side says and does, or a hater of the other side.

And attempts by people to try to paint me into a corner only goes to illustrate the "If you're not with us, the you're against us" mindset that seems to be gripping both sides, but by the nature of this board's membership tends to be more one-sided.


Well I guess they'll have to get by on the illusion that not killing people because of their politics makes them better people.

Jackwagon.

Where did I say, or even imply, such a moral choice was illusory?

[Pierrot Le Fou]

It is now reporting that she is responding to doctors' commands.

[Crafter_Man]

According to this (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2011/01/08/2011-01-08_us_congresswoman_gabrielle_giffords_shot_in_arizona_multiple_wounded.html) page,

The Congresswoman is known for cracking down on illegal immigration, urging deployment of the National Guard and new technology to protect the Arizona border.

He was also young:

The shooter, described as a man in his teens or early 20s...

Most gun-rights activists are over 30.

I'm thinking an immigration rights activist. Perhaps even an illegal alien.

[elucidator]

Just glanced over at Faux News, they are reporting that the gunman was immediately fired upon someone also in the crowd. Guess they wanted to get that bit of spin in there, reminding us how much safer we are because of all the concealed carry permits that abound.

Goody. News reports don't say anything about the gunman being wounded, just in custody. Four dead, quite a few more wounded.

Fuck. Just fuck.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

You've been watching Fox News.

Reports say he was white, the age means absolutely jack shit, and she was targeted by violence once before, after she voted for Health Care. Immigrations Rights activists don't shoot people anyway. Right wingers shoot people.

[elucidator]

...I'm thinking an immigration rights activist. Perhaps even an illegal alien.

"Thinking"?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Just glanced over at Faux News, they are reporting that the gunman was immediately fired upon someone also in the crowd. Guess they wanted to get that bit of spin in there, reminding us how much safer we are because of all the concealed carry permits that abound.
I wonder how many causalties were caused by the John Wayne in the crowd. Returning fire was an incredibly reckless and irresponsible thing to do. I hope that person is also arrested and charged.

[waterj2]

According to this (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2011/01/08/2011-01-08_us_congresswoman_gabrielle_giffords_shot_in_arizona_multiple_wounded.html) page,



He was also young:



Most gun-rights activists are over 30.

I'm thinking an immigration rights activist. Perhaps even an illegal alien.Really? An illegal immigrant would be carrying an automatic weapon, and couldn't find someone in Arizona more closely associated with being anti-immigrant than Gabrielle Giffords? Seriously, the only thing that theory has going for it is that it fits in with your ideological prejudices.

[elucidator]

...Returning fire was an incredibly reckless and irresponsible thing to do...
Well, none of that is confirmed as of yet, and it is Fox Gnaws.

Might someone suggest that the title of this thread needs clarification? Lest we have an abundance?

[Snarky_Kong]

I wonder how many causalties were caused by the John Wayne in the crowd. Returning fire was an incredibly reckless and irresponsible thing to do. I hope that person is also arrested and charged.

Better get that guy that tackled him for assault too.

[Moe]

MSNBC just reported that she's in surgery and expected to pull through.

[Oakminster]

Might someone suggest that the title of this thread needs clarification? Lest we have an abundance?

Agreed. I suggest "The Usual Suspects Jump to Conclusions on Partisan Grounds Despite Complete Lack of Evidence".

[Baron Greenback]

Most gun-rights activists are over 30.


I'm amazed at your statistical acumen.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Better get that guy that tackled him for assault too.
Why? Nothing reckeless or responsible about that. That's the way you do it. Firing into a crowd is idiotic. You wouldn't even see law enforcement do something that stupid.

[Boyo Jim]

According to Fox news, Federal judge John Roll was also shot and killed in the same incident.

The Washington Post sent out an email saying the Congresswoman had died, but live news programs are not reporting this.

[George Kaplin]

Early reports on HuffPo indicate that 12 people were shot, six fatally, and at this time of writing Congresswoman Giffords is alive, albeit in critical condition. Do we have any real evidence that the Congresswoman was actually the intended target? Eyewitness testimony? Statements from the shooter? Anything like that? 'Cos if we can't even say we know that, then how in the great blue blazing fuck can anyone rightfully assume anything about the killer's motive?

[Sam Stone]

From what I understand, she was a 'blue dog' Democrat who took positions liked and disliked by both the right and the left. For instance, she was one of the 19 Democrats who voted against Pelosi for minority leader. So the shooter could be someone with political motivations from the right or left, or it could be an anti-immigrant activist, or it could just be a nutball trying to gain attention and the political positions of the target could be completely irrelevent. Hell, we don't even know if she was the target - he may have just been looking for a large gathering of people with media coverage so he could make a big splash.

Why anyone would jump to any conclusions about the political motivations of the shooter is beyond me - If you point fingers at one side and are later proven to be wrong, it will make you look bad. On the other hand, if your suspicions are correct, we'll all know soon enough and there will be plenty of time for partisan crapweaseling without leaving your ass hanging out in the wind.

People pointing fingers at sides at this point aren't just partisan cheap shot artists - they're stupid. Or they are so angry they can't stop themselves from saying things that might come back to haunt them.

In real news, it seems that the Congresswoman is now responding to doctors, so she may yet survive this. But we shouldn't make this all about her - other people were killed and wounded as well.

[Grumman]

One follows from the other how?
It follows because when a Second Amendment supporter gets shot by some psycho, your first reflex should not be to say "I told you so!"

[AClockworkMelon]

The Washington Post sent out an email saying the Congresswoman had died, but live news programs are not reporting this.I'm watching MSNBC right now and not only is she alive but doctors are saying they expect her to pull through.

[The Hamster King]

Do we have any real evidence that the Congresswoman was actually the intended target? Eyewitness testimony? An eyewitness reported that the spree started with the shooter walking up behind the Congresswoman and firing point blank into her head.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Doesn't jive very well with the "expected to pull through" part.

[Bosstone]

It follows because when a Second Amendment supporter gets shot by some psycho, your first reflex should not be to say "I told you so!"Quite right. It should be the second reflex, possibly the third at the most.

[Erdosain]

Now they're reporting that the shooter was an Afghan war vet.

[Mr. Moto]

You don't recognize a gun scope sight? You really have to disassociate yourself from realty to claim those are anything other than that.

Oh, I recognize it all right. Unfortunately that doesn't help much - "crosshairs" seems to be used far more as a metaphor than for actual shooting.

[AClockworkMelon]

Doesn't jive very well with the "expected to pull through" part.She was indeed shot in the head. And she's expected to pull through.

[joebuck20]

According to this (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2011/01/08/2011-01-08_us_congresswoman_gabrielle_giffords_shot_in_arizona_multiple_wounded.html) page,



He was also young:



Most gun-rights activists are over 30.

I'm thinking an immigration rights activist. Perhaps even an illegal alien.

I know I'll get a warning for this, but....


Fuck. You.

[sleeping]

Frankly, this horrible event is going to be used by political opportunists on both sides. That's just the nature of the current political climate, a climate that has been fostered by both sides.



But both sides have not advocated violence as means to achieve political goals. Only one side has had prominent leaders do so. I would be happy to condemn left-wing (never mind Democrat) violence, if it actually happened.

I'm sure that those responsible for creating this political climate will attempt to distance themselves from this event. However, this does not change the fact that they are responsible.

And almost every conservative in this thread has tried to insist that there isn't enough evidence to say that this was a right-winger. I beg to differ, but, fine, come back in a few days.

But my main point is that there is no question that Fox News, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Sharon Angle, Rush, and the rest of the gang are responsible for this travesty.

[MovieMogul]

Oh, I recognize it all right. Unfortunately that doesn't help much - "crosshairs" seems to be used far more as a metaphor than for actual shooting.Yeah, it's too bad for those pesky blood-soaked tragedies that gives such a rhetorically convenient metaphor such a bad name.

[Boyo Jim]

A surgeon at a local hospital is speaking now.

At his hospital -- 10 patients, 1 small child that died, 5 in critical condition, 5 currently in surgery, Gifford is still alive, bullet went entirely through her head, he is optimistic about her eventual recovery.

[sleeping]

From what I understand, she was a 'blue dog' Democrat who took positions liked and disliked by both the right and the left. For instance, she was one of the 19 Democrats who voted against Pelosi for minority leader. So the shooter could be someone with political motivations from the right or left, or it could be an anti-immigrant activist, or it could just be a nutball trying to gain attention and the political positions of the target could be completely irrelevent. Hell, we don't even know if she was the target - he may have just been looking for a large gathering of people with media coverage so he could make a big splash.
...
But we shouldn't make this all about her - other people were killed and wounded as well.

Like I said, it is probably a right-winger. She has a D in front of her name and she's voted for the healthcare bill. They won't make finer distinctions.

But it is definitely right-wing leaders who bear the blame for this.

And there is no way that this was done by a liberal.

[George Kaplin]

An eyewitness reported that the spree started with the shooter walking up behind the Congresswoman and firing point blank into her head.

Well that's real evidence all right. I still think it's too early to speculate about the killer's motives though.

[sleeping]

Most gun-rights activists are over 30.

I'm thinking an immigration rights activist. Perhaps even an illegal alien.

I'm amazed at your statistical acumen.

Indeed. Perhaps it was that headless Mexican that Brewer found in the desert.

[Walmarticus]

Fuck. You.

I know, right? What the fuck was up with that?

[Charogne]

"...I'm willing to lay blame equaly on both sides."

Mighty big of you.

And it's equally.

[GIGObuster]

Like I said, it is probably a right-winger. She has a D in front of her name and she's voted for the healthcare bill. They won't make finer distinctions.

But it is definitely right-wing leaders who bear the blame for this.

And there is no way that this was done by a liberal.
Well, never say never. The possibility is still there. However, it is a really remote IMHO. I was refraining from making any assumptions, but as the other tread reported that outfits like the "fair and balanced" news speculated already that it could be a liberal nut, then I have to say that they do so for very feeble reasons.

A democrat in this state has to have some conservative positions, she was indeed in favor of laws and actions protecting the border, but she also voted for the Dream act and was in favor of reforming current immigration laws. If it was a left leaning nut who shot her, it was a very ignorant one.

[Jeep's Phoenix]

The Fark thread on this topic states the shooter is Jared Loughner...based on his YouTube videos, he's apparently crazy.rE

[sleeping]

Well, never say never. The possibility is still there. However, it is a really remote IMHO. I was refraining from making any assumptions, but as the other tread reported that outfits like the "fair and balanced" news speculated already that it could be a liberal nut, then I have to say that they do so for very feeble reasons.

A democrat in this state has to have some conservative positions, she was indeed in favor of laws and actions protecting the border, but she also voted for the Dream act and was in favor of reforming current immigration laws. If it was a left leaning nut who shot her, it was a very ignorant one.

She is conservative in the real world. But in Glenn Beck-teabagger fantasies, she is an ardent socialist who must be stopped at all costs.

There is no militant left in the U.S. of any significant size; there is a fairly large militant right, to whom the Republican party has consistently pandered.

[Snarky_Kong]

Nevermind.

[Wallenstein]

I thought Arizona was an open-carry state - isn't that meant to stop stuff like this happening?

[MsWhatsit]

The Fark thread on this topic states the shooter is Jared Loughner...based on his YouTube videos, he's apparently crazy.rE

Holy shit. I looked up the YouTube videos. Loony-tunes does not even begin to describe this stuff. I can easily imagine this guy seeing the Palin graphic mentioned earlier and taking it as a direct order to go shoot someone. I can also, however, easily imagine him hearing voices from God telling him to do it.

Scary. Actually possibly even scarier if the guy responsible for the YouTube videos is NOT the shooter because that means he's still walking among us. Yikes.

[ElvisL1ves]

And I'm the jackwagon here for pointing that out? Fior trying to put a dose of moderation and perspective on the issue? For saying, "wait until we know some more before rushing to judgement?"No, for things like this:
Look, FWIW I agree that the level of rhetoric in political discourse has gotten pretty skewed, and I'm willing to lay blame equaly on both sides.Jackwagon.

Just because I happen to believe strongly in something that is typically related to one side doesn't automatically make me an ardent partisan believer in everything that side says and does, or a hater of the other side.No, it makes you a coward for running away as fast as you can when somebody actually acts upon the "principles" you merely masturbate to on anonymous message boards, and a crybaby for denying it.

[sleeping]

I really don't think this event is as relevant to gun control as it is to advocating violence.

So far, it seems that Loughner was a conspiracy nut. Once more, I emphasize that my main purpose in starting this thread is to condemn right-wing spokespeople like Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich, and Fox News in general. They have created an atmosphere of imminent apocalypse along with vicious lies and attempts to pander to such conspiracists. Whether this guy joined an "official Tea Party" organization is not particularly relevant.

[xenophon41]

Just look at the OP. Without a single piece of evidence out yet as to the motives of the shooter, it's all about right-wing hate.
Do you really dispute that several prominent political talking heads on the right have used inflammatory language suggesting violence against "socialist" government intrusions is appropriate and expected? That's what the OP is about, specifically referring to nauseatingly irresponsible comments from la Palin et ilk about "2nd amendment remedies" to the no-good-very-bad health insurance reform act and other treasons. When the fucktards use language like that, 'Tank, they're not suggesting "keep your guns safe in case the Army comes to take your freedoms away," they're saying "if I get you scared enough, maybe you should go out and shoot some Democrat politicians."

And I'm the jackwagon here for pointing that out? Fior trying to put a dose of moderation and perspective on the issue? For saying, "wait until we know some more before rushing to judgement?"
That aint what you said, friend. Rewind and review please.

Edited to add: Elvis doesn't speak for me. I know you're not a coward or a mindless jerkoff. But I believe you need to take a better look around.

[ElvisL1ves]

I really don't think this event is as relevant to gun control as it is to advocating violence.They're not separable. The fundamental arguments in favor of ignoring the first half of the Second Amendment are based on it, particularly the ones about the people having the ability to resist a tyrannical government. And, violence that does not involve guns kills far fewer people than violence that does.

[Der Trihs]

Why anyone would jump to any conclusions about the political motivations of the shooter is beyond me Because this is exactly what many on the right have been calling for, that's why. If a guy due to testify against organized crime was killed by a mysterious assassin, I'd "jump to conclusions" about that assassin's motivations too.

I thought Arizona was an open-carry state - isn't that meant to stop stuff like this happening?No, it's meant to encourage stuff like this, along with general intimidation.

[Walmarticus]

Because this is exactly what many on the right have been calling for, that's why. If a guy due to testify against organized crime was killed by a mysterious assassin, I'd "jump to conclusions" about that assassin's motivations too.

This is the fault of conscience dreaming. Eat your words!

[Equipoise]

But my main point is that there is no question that Fox News, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Sharon Angle, Rush, and the rest of the gang are responsible for this travesty.There probably is a question until we know more about the shooter, but of course those you mention, and don't forget Bachmann, have been putting ideas of violent revolution into their moron followers' heads for ages.

Jesse Kelly, who ran against Giffords, held an event in June that tied shooting a "fully automatic M16" to "help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office." only said the other way around (lack of punctuation in the original notice):

Sat, 6/12/10, 10:00AM

Get on Target for Victory in November Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from Office Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly

Spin that, (http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/08/giffords-opponent-jesse-kelly-held-june-event-to-shoot-a-fully-automatic-m16-to-get-on-target-and-remove-gabrielle-giffords/)right-wing bitches.

(on preview, it does look like more is coming out about the shooter. Now I'm off to go search YouTube)

[Jeep's Phoenix]

I wonder who shot the child...the nut, one of the bodyguards (returning fire), or an armed bystander.

[Boyo Jim]

The Fark thread on this topic states the shooter is Jared Loughner...based on his YouTube videos, he's apparently crazy.rE

Several new outlets are putting out the same name now. Here's one (http://www.suntimes.com/3216039-417/giffords-shooting-attack-arizona-staff.html).

[elucidator]

Relax. Twenty four hours, likely less, you'll know more about this guy than you know about your momma.

[sleeping]

There probably is a question until we know more about the shooter, but of course those you mention, and don't forget Bachmann, have been putting ideas of violent revolution into their moron followers' heads for ages.


Right, and those who advocate violent revolution and hate are responsible for creating such a social-political climate. Whether this guy attended Beck U. is irrelevant, since appeals to the floridly psychotic are more important than whether those appeals are followed through to the letter.

[Miller]

I know I'll get a warning for this, but....


Fuck. You.

No warning this time, but don't do this again.

[Erdosain]

Just looking at the first YouTube video, he doesn't sound much crazier (or different) than Ron and Rand Paul. "Blah, blah, blah I won't pay debts in currency not backed by gold, blah, blah, blah they've never read the constitution, blah, don't accept federalist laws."

Looks like a right-wing loony to me.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

ExTank, you look like an ass clown by even attempting to spin this.

To this point the whole thing is spin. Everybody's looking for something to get a zinger in with.

I have seen a lot of stuff reported this afternoon in the aftermath, ranging from premature announcements of her death to the virtually unbelievable assertion that this was done with an automatic weapon (which if so would be the third time since 1934, hence my incredulity).

Let's wait and see what really happened before we all start jumping to conclusions, shall we?

[MsWhatsit]

Just looking at the first YouTube video, he doesn't sound much crazier (or different) than Ron and Rand Paul. "Blah, blah, blah I won't pay debts in currency not backed by gold, blah, blah, blah they've never read the constitution, blah, don't accept federalist laws."

Looks like a right-wing loony to me.

It was the stuff about the year formatting and government-controlled grammar that I found to be on the outer fringes of the looney-tunes continuum.

[wipetheclock]

Just looking at the first YouTube video, he doesn't sound much crazier (or different) than Ron and Rand Paul. "Blah, blah, blah I won't pay debts in currency not backed by gold, blah, blah, blah they've never read the constitution, blah, don't accept federalist laws."

Looks like a right-wing loony to me.

Watch the community college one. Both police and grades are unconstitutional on his planet, apparently.

[Lance Turbo]

If those are indeed the gunman's YouTube videos they paint quite a picture.

Only currency backed by precious metals is valid.
The department of education is unconstitutional.
Politicians need to read the constitution.

This guy is looking more and more like a left wing immigration activist to my unbiased eyes.

[Erdosain]

It was the stuff about the year formatting and government-controlled grammar that I found to be on the outer fringes of the looney-tunes continuum.

So does he use "A.D.E." for the date because he thinks you just add an "e" to B.C. and A.D.? What a brilliant guy.

[Walmarticus]

If those are indeed the gunman's YouTube videos they paint quite a picture.

Only currency backed by precious metals is valid.
The department of education is unconstitutional.
Politicians need to read the constitution.

This guy is looking more and more like a left wing immigration activist to my unbiased eyes.

Those incoherent, rambling, insane videos actually painted a picture for you?

[GIGObuster]

They're not separable. The fundamental arguments in favor of ignoring the first half of the Second Amendment are based on it, particularly the ones about the people having the ability to resist a tyrannical government. And, violence that does not involve guns kills far fewer people than violence that does.

I don't like guns too much, but I think getting into another discussion on gun rights for law abiding citizens does not help. I will say though that an even bigger issue is missed when this discussion comes. So far, the best bet is that we have a nut that had some right wing influences and had access to firearms. Right wingers think that this keeps them off the hook. Nonsense.

This is likely example #20,304 of very lax rules or no rules regulating guns when mental health is an issue. And IMHO incidents like this are related to constant right wing efforts to prevent even the passage of laws attempting to prevent incidents like this one from happening. Of course, this also would mean IMO an increase on funding to help more people that have mental issues. Unfortunately, many of the same people that opposed laws like this also oppose any increases on health care. So, double the despicable IMO.

Incidentally, in Arizona only the declared mentally ill by a court are prevented from using guns, so a doctor or psychiatrist that does find a problem with someone has to depend on the courts for the state to do something about it (that something has to include free mental health treatments, but you try to propose something like that over here), IMHO it leads to many incidents where authorities are too late to do anything. And I will say that some elements in the extreme right would not have any other way.

[NurseCarmen]

If those are indeed the gunman's YouTube videos they paint quite a picture.

Only currency backed by precious metals is valid.
The department of education is unconstitutional.
Politicians need to read the constitution.

This guy is looking more and more like a left wing immigration activist to my unbiased eyes.You missed his complaining that most people in district 8 don't speak English.

[Erdosain]

I just figured this out: he typed out the text of his in(s)ane YouTube videos in the "info" section, so you don't have to actually watch the whole thing. Although, you won't see the new symbol and number he's considering adding to the alphabet and numbering system. Your loss.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a

[Jenaroph]

If those are indeed the gunman's YouTube videos they paint quite a picture.

Only currency backed by precious metals is valid.
The department of education is unconstitutional.
Politicians need to read the constitution.

This guy is looking more and more like a left wing immigration activist to my unbiased eyes.Looks more libertarian to me, but I think we're dealing with less of a coherent ideology and more of a student of CGNU.

[ElvisL1ves]

I don't like guns too much, but I think getting into another discussion on gun rights for law abiding citizens does not help. On the contrary, a prominent incident in which the consequences of Second Amendment fundamentalism are made clear is precisely the right time. A discussion about exactly what a "law abiding citizen" is, and how one can make sure such a person is never sufficiently angered to violate the law, is also a good one to have at this time.

You're right about how we need better mental health care, of course - you loony liberal.

[Raygun99]

Looks more libertarian to me, but I think we're dealing with less of a coherent ideology and more of a student of CGNU.

He's almost certainly making fun of this prognostication (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13331707&postcount=56).

[ElvisL1ves]

Elvis doesn't speak for me. I know you're not a coward or a mindless jerkoff. But I believe you need to take a better look around.Fair enough - he's at least entered the discussion here. His colleagues who are simply lying low are more cowardly and mindless.

OK, ExTank, my apologies - you're not a complete coward. Some of this is just foolishness.

[Jenaroph]

He's almost certainly making fun of this prognostication (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13331707&postcount=56).

:smack: Yes, surely.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

But my main point is that there is no question that Fox News, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Sharon Angle, Rush, and the rest of the gang are responsible for this travesty.

This is probably one of the most insane claims I have ever read on this website. Sure, the people you quoted are also wackjobs, but I don't see any of them advocating murdering people on the other side of the aisle.

Jesus Christ, this shooting is bringing out some pretty powerful and judgemental stupid in this thread.

Even if he IS a right-wing nut job....SO FUCKING WHAT? Does anyone really believe that his political affiliation or beliefs really matter in the end? The dude that shot these people is FUCKING CRAZY, and crazy trumps politics every time.

I don't understand some of you. Its like you're salivating in some bizarre Pavlovian way, just hoping that this guy is some right-wing nutter so you can paint the entire conservative side of the aisle with some equally crazy broad brush. Its fucking stupid and irresponsible thinking.

People have been shot and have died, its a tragedy, can we save the political point scoring for another day?

[ElvisL1ves]

Then would it be non-insaneIYHO to suggest that the effects of the aforementioned Foxers on our atmosphere of civil discourse has helped to make this incident possible? Is that a fair start? :dubious:

[GIGObuster]

Even if he IS a right-wing nut job....SO FUCKING WHAT?

Post #113 is that. And it is done without removing the right of normal Americans to bear arms.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

But it is definitely right-wing leaders who bear the blame for this.



Interesting. So if a politician you don't like says or supports something you don't agree with, they deserve death? And even if a blowhard talking head advocates such a thing, the person that actually takes to heart such rhetoric and carries out such a dastardly deed is just "doing the right thing" and isn't just simply fucking looney-tunes?

[Der Trihs]

This is probably one of the most insane claims I have ever read on this website. Sure, the people you quoted are also wackjobs, but I don't see any of them advocating murdering people on the other side of the aisle.Of course they've been advocating murdering Democrats. That's been common behavior from the Right for decades.

Even if he IS a right-wing nut job....SO FUCKING WHAT? Does anyone really believe that his political affiliation or beliefs really matter in the end? The dude that shot these people is FUCKING CRAZY, and crazy trumps politics every time.American right wing politics IS crazy. So yes, it matters; he's only one of a legion of right wingers who aren't very different from him at all.

People have been shot and have died, its a tragedy, can we save the political point scoring for another day?In other words, wait until this incident fades from people's minds so we can all pretend the Right isn't composed of lunatics and thugs.

[Lance Turbo]

Um... Whoosh.

[sleeping]

This is probably one of the most insane claims I have ever read on this website. Sure, the people you quoted are also wackjobs, but I don't see any of them advocating murdering people on the other side of the aisle.

Jesus Christ, this shooting is bringing out some pretty powerful and judgemental stupid in this thread.

Even if he IS a right-wing nut job....SO FUCKING WHAT? Does anyone really believe that his political affiliation or beliefs really matter in the end? The dude that shot these people is FUCKING CRAZY, and crazy trumps politics every time.

I don't understand some of you. Its like you're salivating in some bizarre Pavlovian way, just hoping that this guy is some right-wing nutter so you can paint the entire conservative side of the aisle with some equally crazy broad brush. Its fucking stupid and irresponsible thinking.

People have been shot and have died, its a tragedy, can we save the political point scoring for another day?

It's not about political point scoring. Neither nor most others have mentioned any right-wing policies. Nor have I condemned all conservatives, just the ones mentioned (although they happen to be the most prominent).

However, it is undeniable that the most prominent right-wing leaders in the U.S. have been implicitly and explicitly fomenting violence. They have done so through a congeries of strategies, including calling Obama an anti-white racist, claiming that the U.S. is on the way to socialism, warning about death panels, predicting the emergence of sharia law in the US, speaking of FEMA camps for conservatives, etc.

All this apocalyptic and hate-filled talk has increased the likelihood of such an event by appealing to the ego of the crazies and making them more sure of their ideas. By way of comparison: Could the WTC attacks have happened without Al-Qaeda? Sure, but the chances of a few guys getting together like that are slim.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Of course they've been advocating murdering Democrats. That's been common behavior from the Right for decades.

American right wing politics IS crazy. So yes, it matters; he's only one of a legion of right wingers who aren't very different from him at all.

In other words, wait until this incident fades from people's minds so we can all pretend the Right isn't composed of lunatics and thugs.

This is news to me. There are fringe elements in every political spectrum that advocate or believe crazy bullshit. And even if a talking head advocates violent action against their perceived political enemies it in no way means that some idiot should carry out some vague, bullshit "call to arms" for a "revolution".

AFAICT there are no actual elected officials the have an "R" next to their name that think what happened today was anything less than the act of a raving madman or would advocate such an action.

This whole thing is crazy.

And your cynicism is showing.

[sleeping]

Interesting. So if a politician you don't like says or supports something you don't agree with, they deserve death?


What. The. Fuck. Where did I suggest death for anyone?


And even if a blowhard talking head advocates such a thing, the person that actually takes to heart such rhetoric and carries out such a dastardly deed is just "doing the right thing" and isn't just simply fucking looney-tunes?

This has been repeatedly addressed. See here:

it is undeniable that the most prominent right-wing leaders in the U.S. have been implicitly and explicitly fomenting violence. They have done so through a congeries of strategies, including calling Obama an anti-white racist, claiming that the U.S. is on the way to socialism, warning about death panels, predicting the emergence of sharia law in the US, speaking of FEMA camps for conservatives, etc.

and here:

those who advocate violent revolution and hate are responsible for creating such a social-political climate. Whether this guy attended Beck U. is irrelevant, since appeals to the floridly psychotic are more important than whether those appeals are followed through to the letter.

All this apocalyptic and hate-filled talk has increased the likelihood of such an event by appealing to the ego of the crazies and making them more sure of their ideas. By way of comparison: Could the WTC attacks have happened without Al-Qaeda? Sure, but the chances of a few guys getting together like that are slim.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

It's not about political point scoring. Neither nor most others have mentioned any right-wing policies. Nor have I condemned all conservatives, just the ones mentioned (although they happen to be the most prominent).

However, it is undeniable that the most prominent right-wing leaders in the U.S. have been implicitly and explicitly fomenting violence. They have done so through a congeries of strategies, including calling Obama an anti-white racist, claiming that the U.S. is on the way to socialism, warning about death panels, predicting the emergence of sharia law in the US, speaking of FEMA camps for conservatives, etc.

All this apocalyptic and hate-filled talk has increased the likelihood of such an event by appealing to the ego of the crazies and making them more sure of their ideas. By way of comparison: Could the WTC attacks have happened without Al-Qaeda? Sure, but the chances of a few guys getting together like that are slim.
How do any of those things make it "undeniable that the most prominent right wing leaders in the U.S. have been implicitly and explicitly fomenting violence"?

And who are these "prominent right-wing leaders" you speak of? Are any of them currently holding a job as an elected official, or are they talk show hosts, guests on "The Factor" or what?

[Der Trihs]

This is news to me. There are fringe elements in every political spectrum that advocate or believe crazy bullshit. We aren't talking about the fringe. We are talking about Republican members of Congress, former vice Presidential candidates, Republicans at all levels. Supporting violence and threats of violence against political opponents is a common position, perhaps by now even the norm among Republicans. It's not a fringe view.

[Harborwolf]

This is probably one of the most insane claims I have ever read on this website. Sure, the people you quoted are also wackjobs, but I don't see any of them advocating murdering people on the other side of the aisle.

Jesus Christ, this shooting is bringing out some pretty powerful and judgemental stupid in this thread.

Even if he IS a right-wing nut job....SO FUCKING WHAT? Does anyone really believe that his political affiliation or beliefs really matter in the end? The dude that shot these people is FUCKING CRAZY, and crazy trumps politics every time.

I don't understand some of you. Its like you're salivating in some bizarre Pavlovian way, just hoping that this guy is some right-wing nutter so you can paint the entire conservative side of the aisle with some equally crazy broad brush. Its fucking stupid and irresponsible thinking.

People have been shot and have died, its a tragedy, can we save the political point scoring for another day?You're kind of right. I honestly hope this guy listened to Glenn Beck. I hope he listened to Sarah Palin and misunderstood her enough to do this. I hope he was just crazy enough to take every metaphorical reference to violence seriously. Why? Not political party. I could give a shit about if he was a card carrying republican or not.

I want him to be a listener to these things because they need to stop. People in very public roles, either elected officials or not, have been skating that line and riding that "I wasn't speaking literally" for entirely too long now and thinking that it is harmless really is stupid and irresponsible thinking. Maybe some of these morons who have been using this kind of talk to further their agendas will have a twinge of something resembling a conscience and stop saying these things. Maybe some of them will even come out and say that what happened was wrong, and that violence against people who disagree with you is wrong in language clear enough to convince even the crazies that they have to find their own reasons to commit murder. However cold this may sound, maybe something like this will finally convince these people to shut up. To stop the over the top us against our enemies talk.

Unfortunately what will happen is that Michelle Bachman, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, and every other rootin', tootin, shootin' politician will hide behind the "any sane person knows that I didn't mean it" and keep on doing what they are doing: preaching (metaphorical :rolleyes:) armed resistance and spewing socialist apocalyptic scenarios and cashing their checks. And people like you will say that "they aren't leaders" and attempt to minimize the damage that talk like theirs does.

That's what I hope.

[sleeping]

How do any of those things make it "undeniable that the most prominent right wing leaders in the U.S. have been implicitly and explicitly fomenting violence"?

They've worked overtime to create a climate of hate and fear. This makes the crazies (who else would follow their rhetoric to its logical conclusion?) certain that their time has come.


And who are these "prominent right-wing leaders" you speak of? Are any of them currently holding a job as an elected official, or are they talk show hosts, guests on "The Factor" or what?

I've named some of them. So have others. Repeatedly. Have you read the thread? Have you been awake for the past two years?

Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin (former Republican VP candidate), Newt Gingrich (former House speaker), Glenn Beck, Charles Grassley (Iowa senator), Steve King (Iowa congressman), Michele Bachmann (Minnesota congresswoman), Sharon Angle (Republican Tea Party-endorsed candidate for Nevada senator)

[rolandgunslinger]

They've worked overtime to create a climate of hate and fear. This makes the crazies (who else would follow their rhetoric to its logical conclusion?) certain that their time has come.



I've named some of them. So have others. Repeatedly. Have you read the thread? Have you been awake for the past two years?

Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin (former Republican VP candidate), Newt Gingrich (former House speaker), Glenn Beck, Charles Grassley (Iowa senator), Steve King (Iowa congressman), Michele Bachmann (Minnesota congresswoman), Sharon Angle (Republican Tea Party-endorsed candidate for Nevada senator)

Please show me a cite where any of these people you mention has told people to take up arms and murder political opponents.

[jsgoddess]

I'll come right out and say that I do hope there is a political connection to this shooting. The shooting can't be undone. If both sides can just pooh pooh it as a crazy person, we won't be forced to examine the public rhetoric and tone it the fuck down.

Events like this could serve as a wake-up call for the Palins of the world. They could, and I want them to. So yeah, I'm hoping a political motivation takes shape just so we don't handwave it off. What has happened is horrifying. It would be the only silver lining in the world if it could somehow cause us as a nation to reflect on what we're doing.

[jsgoddess]

I want him to be a listener to these things because they need to stop. People in very public roles, either elected officials or not, have been skating that line and riding that "I wasn't speaking literally" for entirely too long now and thinking that it is harmless really is stupid and irresponsible thinking. Maybe some of these morons who have been using this kind of talk to further their agendas will have a twinge of something resembling a conscience and stop saying these things. Maybe some of them will even come out and say that what happened was wrong, and that violence against people who disagree with you is wrong in language clear enough to convince even the crazies that they have to find their own reasons to commit murder. However cold this may sound, maybe something like this will finally convince these people to shut up. To stop the over the top us against our enemies talk.


While I was composing my reply, you posted yours and it's better. FINE! I'm going to take my hopes and GO HOME!

[Bryan Ekers]

Isn't it nice how moments of tragedy bring people together?

[Jeep's Phoenix]

Unfortunately what will happen is that Michelle Bachman, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, and every other rootin', tootin, shootin' politician will hide behind the "any sane person knows that I didn't mean it" and keep on doing what they are doing: preaching (metaphorical :rolleyes:) armed resistance and spewing socialist apocalyptic scenarios and cashing their checks.
Well, Michelle Bachman is apparently in tears (per Twitter), and Palin's PAC and FaceBook pages appear to have had that crosshairs map removed...

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

You're kind of right. I honestly hope this guy listened to Glenn Beck. I hope he listened to Sarah Palin and misunderstood her enough to do this. I hope he was just crazy enough to take every metaphorical reference to violence seriously. Why? Not political party. I could give a shit about if he was a card carrying republican or not.

I want him to be a listener to these things because they need to stop. People in very public roles, either elected officials or not, have been skating that line and riding that "I wasn't speaking literally" for entirely too long now and thinking that it is harmless really is stupid and irresponsible thinking. Maybe some of these morons who have been using this kind of talk to further their agendas will have a twinge of something resembling a conscience and stop saying these things. Maybe some of them will even come out and say that what happened was wrong, and that violence against people who disagree with you is wrong in language clear enough to convince even the crazies that they have to find their own reasons to commit murder. However cold this may sound, maybe something like this will finally convince these people to shut up. To stop the over the top us against our enemies talk.

Unfortunately what will happen is that Michelle Bachman, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, and every other rootin', tootin, shootin' politician will hide behind the "any sane person knows that I didn't mean it" and keep on doing what they are doing: preaching (metaphorical :rolleyes:) armed resistance and spewing socialist apocalyptic scenarios and cashing their checks. And people like you will say that "they aren't leaders" and attempt to minimize the damage that talk like theirs does.

That's what I hope.

"People like me"? What in the holy hell does that even mean? Again with the broad brush approach. Jesus Tapdancing Christ On A Fucking Pogo Stick!

If someone is too fucking stupid or crazy to not be able to interpret rhetoric for what it is, then there's no help for the human race. I suppose I'll just curl up and fail to understand why some folks are so eager to place blame on a political party. I do agree that its utterly irresponsible for someone like Rush Limbaugh to even utter words that could be interpreted as some kind of crazy "call to action"...but in the end, again, they are just words, which bounce harmlessly off the skulls of people that can actually fucking think for themselves and that, like myself, would condemn this horrible act for what it is...the work of an insane person in need of 24/7 lockdown.

I don't know why I've thrust myself into this position of defending the Republicans, but it seems to me that blaming them for this is just so over the top, especially for a lack of evidence at this point.

They've worked overtime to create a climate of hate and fear. This makes the crazies (who else would follow their rhetoric to its logical conclusion?) certain that their time has come.



I've named some of them. So have others. Repeatedly. Have you read the thread? Have you been awake for the past two years?

Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin (former Republican VP candidate), Newt Gingrich (former House speaker), Glenn Beck, Charles Grassley (Iowa senator), Steve King (Iowa congressman), Michele Bachmann (Minnesota congresswoman), Sharon Angle (Republican Tea Party-endorsed candidate for Nevada senator)

I don't seem to recall any of the people that you name that are actually elected officials advocating murdering political opponents, or asking their followers to do so.

[Jenaroph]

Please show me a cite where any of these people you mention has told people to take up arms and murder political opponents.

"I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. Thomas Jefferson told us 'having a revolution every now and then is a good thing,' and the people -- we the people -- are going to have to fight back hard if we're not going to lose our country." -Rep. Rep. Michele Bachmann, March 2009

"You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. And in fact Thomas Jefferson said it's good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years.
I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out." - Sharron Angle, January 2010

[Squink]

Well, Michelle Bachman is apparently in tears (per Twitter).

Did she learn that technique from Boehner?
Apparently, he learned it straight from the crocodile.


Seriously, this contrition is not believable.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

"I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. Thomas Jefferson told us 'having a revolution every now and then is a good thing,' and the people -- we the people -- are going to have to fight back hard if we're not going to lose our country." -Rep. Rep. Michele Bachmann, March 2009

"You know, our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. And in fact Thomas Jefferson said it's good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years.
I hope that's not where we're going, but, you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out." - Sharron Angle, January 2010

Fair enough. Both of them are stupid and misrepresent Jefferson's comment. I just can't get behind this whole "ALL REPUBLICANS worship Sarah Palin/Rush Limbaugh/Whomethefuckever" meme. It just isn't true.

Just because a politician from either side of whatever spews nonsense doesn't mean you have to believe it. And shame on the stupid voters that elected irresponsible fools. I blame apathy instead. It allows politicians the invulnerable feeling that they can say or do whatever they want without accountability.

[Jenaroph]

To be clear, I'm not saying that political activists advocating violence are to blame for the actions of someone who appears to be an actual lunatic, but to say "no Republican leaders are advocating taking up guns and resorting to violence against their opponents" is unfortunately easily refutable.

[sleeping]

Please show me a cite where any of these people you mention has told people to take up arms and murder political opponents.

Glenn Beck does a skit about poisoning Nancy Pelosi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UudQuVOwSds)

Palin: "Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!"


HUCKABEE: Every member of Congress knows in his gut what's in the people's interest and what's in K Street's interest. If you think your real boss is some smug guy in a corner office with his Gucci loafers up on a mahogany deck and not the folks back home, those folks who voted for you, who gave you 25 or 50 hard-earned bucks, who put up yard signs and made calls for you, you deserve to lose. Shame on you, you shouldn't just be fired, you should be tarred and feathered as the original tea partiers would have done. That's my view and I welcome yours.



BECK: The government is full of vampires, and they are trying to suck the lifeblood out of the economy." Beck then suggested "driv[ing] a stake through the heart of the bloodsuckers." [Glenn Beck, 3/30/09]


BECK: "there is a revolution, and they think they can get away with it quietly." ... "At this point, gang, I'm not sure, they may be able to because they are so far ahead of us. They know what they're dealing against; most of America does not yet. Most of America doesn't have a clue as to what's going on. There is a coup going on. There is a stealing of America, and the way it is done, it has been done through the -- the guise of an election, but they lied to us the entire time." He also said, "And they're gonna say, 'we did it democratically,' and they are going to grab power every way they can. And God help us in an emergency." [The Glenn Beck Program, 8/31/09]

[BECK: "The pieces that the president needs to control every aspect of your life, to fundamentally transform America, will be finished. He'll have them all," adding: "If health care does not pass, warning, those on the left are going to become violent." [The Glenn Beck Program, 3/5/10] [/quote]

CAL THOMAS:It is an outrage. It is a sham. Euthanasia is coming. You can call them death panels. That's exactly what they're going to be. We are going to really be sorry for this, but, unfortunately, when the guy in the white robe comes to give us our little pill, as President Obama told ABC, the 100-year-old woman who wants to live must get in order to make it equal for everybody and not to spend so much, it will be too late. [America's News HQ, 11/21/09]



Michael Savage:
"I am telling you, right now, before you -- you are on the verge of a Marxist revolution in the United States of America. You have a naked Marxist, America-hating, white-hating party -- wing of the party -- about to seize power. And you don't even know it."



Byron Williams (would-be terrorist attacker of the Tides foundation):
“I would have never started watching Fox News if it wasn’t for the fact that Beck was on there. And it was the things that he did, it was the things he exposed that blew my mind.”


Note that Julius Streicher, who was convicted at Nuremberg, never actually said to kill this Jew or that Jew. All he did was call them scum, blood-sucker, devils, demons, threats to the country, traitors to the nation, and so forth.

[The Hamster King]

Just because a politician from either side of whatever spews nonsense doesn't mean you have to believe it.But politicians who do use violent rhetoric should absolutely have their noses rubbed in it when one of the targets of that rhetoric gets shot in the head.

[rolandgunslinger]

Glenn Beck does a skit about poisoning Nancy Pelosi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UudQuVOwSds)

Palin: "Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!"







[BECK: "The pieces that the president needs to control every aspect of your life, to fundamentally transform America, will be finished. He'll have them all," adding: "If health care does not pass, warning, those on the left are going to become violent." [The Glenn Beck Program, 3/5/10]









Note that Julius Streicher, who was convicted at Nuremberg, never actually said to kill this Jew or that Jew. All he did was call them scum, blood-sucker, devils, demons, threats to the country, traitors to the nation, and so forth.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the reply.

[Jeep's Phoenix]

Did she learn that technique from Boehner?
Apparently, he learned it straight from the crocodile.


Seriously, this contrition is not believable.
What is it that Glenn Beck uses, Vap-o-rub? Or maybe she wears contacts, and managed to fold one in half while rubbing her eye.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I still fail to see how quoting an idiot named Glenn Beck that has a TV show proves anything other than that the most vehement of his followers are in fact, idiots. And incapable of thinking for themselves. And if one of them takes him at his word, how that makes Beck responsible for the actions of a crazy person, let alone the stances of an entire wing of politicians in America.

[Palo Verde]

The guy's favorite book is listed as The Communist Manifesto, so I'm not seeing a right-wing nutcase.

But then again everyone is calling him "very disturbed"

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_91db5db4-1b74-11e0-ba23-001cc4c002e0.html

[Johnny L.A.]

The guy's favorite book is listed as The Communist Manifesto, so I'm not seeing a right-wing nutcase.

It could be a case of 'Know thy enemy.'

[Harborwolf]

"People like me"? What in the holy hell does that even mean? Again with the broad brush approach. Jesus Tapdancing Christ On A Fucking Pogo Stick!I'm sorry. I thought I was rather clear. I feel that however well intentioned your defense of those who have fostered a climate of violence for political or financial gain (regardless of political party), it is wrong. You're making excuses for them.If someone is too fucking stupid or crazy to not be able to interpret rhetoric for what it is, then there's no help for the human race. I suppose I'll just curl up and fail to understand why some folks are so eager to place blame on a political party. I do agree that its utterly irresponsible for someone like Rush Limbaugh to even utter words that could be interpreted as some kind of crazy "call to action"...but in the end, again, they are just words, which bounce harmlessly off the skulls of people that can actually fucking think for themselves and that, like myself, would condemn this horrible act for what it is...the work of an insane person in need of 24/7 lockdown.A fine piece of over the top rhetoric on your part. As there doesn't seem to be a point to it, I'll just leave it to stand perfectly by itself.

I don't know why I've thrust myself into this position of defending the Republicans, but it seems to me that blaming them for this is just so over the top, especially for a lack of evidence at this point.I'm not blaming the republicans. Not as a whole. Not as a party. I'm blaming specific people (already listed repeatedly in this very thread) who have used the rhetoric to foster their own interests. Does that make you feel better? I don't seem to recall any of the people that you name that are actually elected officials advocating murdering political opponents, or asking their followers to do so.And you wouldn't be convinced unless you had video proof and/or statements signed and notarized that stated "I believe the murder of my political opponents to be a good and proper thing" signed by those people. So why bother really?

I may be wrong. This guy may have also been trying to impress Jodie Foster, though if she isn't impressed by presidential assasination I don't think a lowly senator will do the trick. Maybe he's just the star of his own personal action movie and the senator is responsible for the death of his brother/martial arts tutor. Maybe he just woke up this morning and Tony the Tiger said that political violence is "GRRRRRREAT!" If that's the case, post a pit thread with my name in it and I'll apologize to you for ever doubting you or questioning you. I'll even apologize for my rush to judgement.

What it won't change is that we have had incidents of violence and intimidation towards political figures and that certain people have been pushing inflammatory rhetoric to further their own ends and not those of a specific political party. I know that this isn't an action of a monolithic political party regardless of what comes to light in this case. This is a violent whackjob. I'd say the same thing even if Michael Steele had been the one to do it, though he would've popped a cap in her because he's street.

[DxZero]

The guy's favorite book is listed as The Communist Manifesto, so I'm not seeing a right-wing nutcase.

But then again everyone is calling him "very disturbed"

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_91db5db4-1b74-11e0-ba23-001cc4c002e0.html

And Mein Kampf. Kind of all over the place ideologically speaking, at least on a traditional right wing/left wing spectrum.

[Argent Towers]

It could be a case of 'Know thy enemy.'

I doubt it, and I also doubt that he is committed to Communist philosophy or any kind of philosophy.

People like this guy often like any kind of book that claims to have society all figured out.

[sleeping]

I still fail to see how quoting an idiot named Glenn Beck that has a TV show proves anything other than that the most vehement of his followers are in fact, idiots. And incapable of thinking for themselves. And if one of them takes him at his word, how that makes Beck responsible for the actions of a crazy person, let alone the stances of an entire wing of politicians in America.

Okay, once more:

The aforementioned Republican elected officials have endorsed his and others' lunatic ideas, like death panels. Bachmann, herself a member of the U.S. Congress, questioned the loyalty of others in the chamber and suggested hearings on un-American activities.

As for Glenn Beck himself, well, he knows that his legions of fans are mindless morons who follow his command. If, knowing this, he suggests they do something, how is he not responsible?

And, for comparison, I have pointed out that that uber-evil Nazi propagandist Julius Streicher, who we all presumably agree was responsible for the German atrocities, never said that any one Jew should be killed. He merely demonized them, made them appear treacherous and inhuman enemies. Or is he not responsible for anything either?


Thank you for the reply.
No problem.

[buckgully]

The ad on the top of my page is for "Front Sight Firearm Training institiute". I'm not sure how much control the sdmb has over ad content, but that's really turning my stomach at the moment.

[Fear Itself]

It is being reported (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/ariz_congresswoman_shot_in_head_YFTvsurRHy5OWGSRKnuK8J#ixzz1ATapcbLU) that Gifford's father, on the way into the hospital, was asked if his daughter had any enemies, and he replied, "Yeah, the whole Tea Party."

I am sure he is just distraught.

[sleeping]

Did she learn that technique from Boehner?
Apparently, he learned it straight from the crocodile.


Seriously, this contrition is not believable.

Exactly.


March 21, 2009 (http://blog.lib.umn.edu/cspg/smartpolitics/2009/03/michele_bachmann_on_dc_im_a_fo_1.php):

Michele Bachmann: "I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. Thomas Jefferson told us, having a revolution every now and then is a good thing, and the people — we the people — are going to have to fight back hard if we’re not going to lose our country."

[Harborwolf]

FoieGrasIsEvil, I should also like to add that I do agree with you that blaming the republican party as a whole is slightly insane. That the people making these statements happen to be republican and/or share some political views with them has nothing to do with the shooting itself. Where I disagree with you is that the words of these people in prominence do have an effect. As I said, none of the statements, rallies, facebook signs, etc. happened in a vacuum. I believe that they do accumulate and will continue to do so.

[sleeping]

I just can't get behind this whole "ALL REPUBLICANS worship Sarah Palin/Rush Limbaugh/Whomethefuckever" meme. It just isn't true.


And I never said that, or anything like it!

I specifically condemned those individuals. NEVER did I imply that the Republican party as a whole is at fault.

[Blank Slate]

Well, Michelle Bachman is apparently in tears (per Twitter), and Palin's PAC and FaceBook pages appear to have had that crosshairs map removed...

Nope, the facebook page with the crosshairs is still up. That rotten cunt has never admitted a single error, so don't expect her to start now.

[Harborwolf]

Nope, the facebook page with the crosshairs is still up. That rotten cunt has never admitted a single error, so don't expect her to start now.Ten bucks says she'll talk about how some people are using this tragedy for political purposes entirely unaware that she will then also be using the tragedy for political purposes.

[sleeping]

Ten bucks says she'll talk about how some people are using this tragedy for political purposes entirely unaware that she will then also be using the tragedy for political purposes.

Or insist that this an example of how the "liberal media" is trying to destroy her.

[Harborwolf]

Or insist that this an example of how the "liberal media" is trying to destroy her.I believe her preferred term is "lamestream."

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Do you remember that back during the Times Square Bombing virtually everyone was saying the same "Its a Tea Partyier!" shit?

[Der Trihs]

Nope, the facebook page with the crosshairs is still up.
I understand she removed Gifford's crosshair though; the site was taken down for a short time today. Apparently there's a fair amount of whitewashing going on at various right wing websites.

[Johnny L.A.]

Do you remember that back during the Times Square Bombing virtually everyone was saying the same "Its a Tea Partyier!" shit?

No.

[Fear Itself]

Do you remember that back during the Times Square Bombing virtually everyone was saying the same "Its a Tea Partyier!" shit?No, I don't. Do you?

[Johnny L.A.]

I understand she removed Gifford's crosshair though; the site was taken down for a short time today. Apparently there's a fair amount of whitewashing going on at various right wing websites.

Well, no need for crosshairs there now.

[Bryan Ekers]

Do you remember that back during the Times Square Bombing virtually everyone was saying the same "Its a Tea Partyier!" shit?

I know it's entirely unlike you to have a point, but I'll ask anyway - what's your point?

[Der Trihs]

Do you remember that back during the Times Square Bombing virtually everyone was saying the same "Its a Tea Partyier!" shit?
Was Times Square already a target of Tea Party violence like Giffords was? Did Palin put up a map with a crosshair on Times Square? Was there a Tea Party candidate holding gatherings where people opened fire on a picture of Times Square with a M-16?

If not, then your analogy doesn't work.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

At any rate I hope this man gets convicted and put to death and fed to pigs if possible.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

I know it's entirely unlike you to have a point, but I'll ask anyway - what's your point?

Quite a people here are saying basically the Tea-Party's rhetoric such as "Second Amendment Solutions" were responsible for this murder despite the fact that right wing extremnists were suspected during the fucking Times Square attempted bombing when it turned out to be a Muslim extremnist.

[Johnny L.A.]

I know it's entirely unlike you to have a point, but I'll ask anyway - what's your point?

At any rate I hope this man gets convicted and put to death and fed to pigs if possible.

You avoided the question. Who was saying that people were claiming the Teabaggers were behind the attempted bombing at Times Square?

[Bryan Ekers]

At any rate I hope this man gets convicted and put to death and fed to pigs if possible.

Whoa-hoa...! Some people were just speculating on the guy's political bent, you're talking about killing him! Who's the conclusion-jumper now?!




Just kidding but seriously, you're kind of a twerp. Try working on that.

[Fear Itself]

Quite a people here are saying basically the Tea-Party's rhetoric such as "Second Amendment Solutions" were responsible for this murder despite the fact that right wing extremnists were suspected during the fucking Times Square attempted bombing ...You keep saying that, yet there is no supporting evidence. I say it never happened.

[Merneith]

FoieGrasIsEvil, I should also like to add that I do agree with you that blaming the republican party as a whole is slightly insane. That the people making these statements happen to be republican and/or share some political views with them has nothing to do with the shooting itself. Where I disagree with you is that the words of these people in prominence do have an effect. As I said, none of the statements, rallies, facebook signs, etc. happened in a vacuum. I believe that they do accumulate and will continue to do so.

Ok, let's not blame 'the republican party as a whole'.

But I think it's entirely fair to blame those republicans who work for, donate to, campaign for, vote for, and watch the tv shows of, the terror-mongering schmucks who've been quoted in this thread.

[Harborwolf]

Ok, let's not blame 'the republican party as a whole'.

But I think it's entirely fair to blame those republicans who work for, donate to, campaign for, vote for, and watch the tv shows of, the terror-mongering schmucks who've been quoted in this thread.Oh yes. That's much more reasonable.

I don't think that the term broad brush actually covers that statement. Really more of a paint sprayer mounted on a satellite in orbit above the planet. Like a Star Wars era intellectual defense system.

And you left out whether or not you blame any kids these people have had, any other relatives who might not have voted the same way but didn't speak up enough to satisfy you, people they've sat next to in public transit or on an airplane.

[elucidator]

Am I the only one who sees whats really going on here? Hasn't anyone else noticed that the picture of the gunman they're showing makes him look like a hippy?

C'mon, people! Connect the dot!

[elucidator]

Has anyone wandered over to the Freeper asylum, see how they're...ah...responding? I would, but I'm on a strict regimen of mental hygiene.....

But we usually have some volunteers here.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/may/03/times-square-bomb

He didn't directly accuse the Tea Party, however he clearly talks as if the right-wingers are the most likely suspects:

But it seems far more likely to me that the perpetrator of the bungled Times Square bomb plot was either a lone wolf or a member of some squirrely branch of the Tea Party, anti-government far right. Which actually exists in Connecticut, where, it seems, the car's licence plates were stolen.

[Squink]

At any rate I hope this man gets convicted and put to death and fed to pigs if possible.
Just like Saddam?
Do you have evidence the guy's a musalman?

[Johnny L.A.]

Here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/may/03/times-square-bomb

He didn't directly accuse the Tea Party, however he clearly talks as if the right-wingers are the most likely suspects:

So... You have an opinion piece by someone who is not even in this country who says we should wait until we have more evidence? Is that all ya got? Because your previous post implies that there was widespread -- or at least known -- speculation from the left wing that the bomber was American.

[Der Trihs]

Has anyone wandered over to the Freeper asylum, see how they're...ah...responding? I would, but I'm on a strict regimen of mental hygiene.....

But we usually have some volunteers here.I do recall someone quoting one of them saying something about "maybe now they'll wake up to what happens when you go against the American people" (quoted from memory so I probably butchered it). And on another forum one of the first responses I saw to the breaking story was "Americans are starting to fight back... "; guy got promptly banned though.

[crowmanyclouds]

Do you remember that back during the Times Square Bombing virtually everyone was saying the same "Its a Tea Partyier!" shit?I do!

Now, would you like to remind the class why people thought that?

CMC fnord!
Hint, it's right there in your P180 cite.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Has anyone wandered over to the Freeper asylum, see how they're...ah...responding? I would, but I'm on a strict regimen of mental hygiene.....

But we usually have some volunteers here.

Well basically them seem to lean to the theory that either Loughner is a leftist or that Judge Roll was the actual target.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

I do!

Now, would you like to remind the class why people thought that?

CMC fnord!
Hint, it's right there in your P180 cite.

He did so in an article telling other not to jump to conclusions, yet he was essentially doing that himself! In addition people who are suspecting the Tea Party are speaking that with certainty even though the evidence is a best ambigous (hint: Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf are among his favourite books).

[Fear Itself]

(hint: Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf are among his favourite books).What should we conclude from this information?

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

What should we conclude from this information?

Hmm... that perhaps he wasn't a right winger (of the Republican type at least) considering the two great bogeymen of the Tea Party are Nazis and Communists? :dubious:

[Fear Itself]

Hmm... that perhaps he wasn't a right winger (of the Republican type at least) considering the two great bogeymen of the Tea Party are Nazis and Communists? :dubious:So right wingers never read Mein Kampf or the Communist Manifesto? :dubious:

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

So right wingers never read Mein Kampf or the Communist Manifesto? :dubious:

There's a difference between "I read that book" and "favourite book".

[Kevbo]

I wonder how many causalties were caused by the John Wayne in the crowd.

When the answer turns out to be zero, I wonder how many of your prejudices you will be willing to rethink. Actually, I don't wonder at all.

[Fear Itself]

There's a difference between "I read that book" and "favourite book".So you are hanging your entire leftist argument on one word?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

This is a violent whackjob. I'd say the same thing even if Michael Steele had been the one to do it, though he would've popped a cap in her because he's street.

That's what I've been saying all along! Jesus. Where was the debate again?
:rolleyes:


The only point I am trying to make is just to illuminate just how quickly some here ascribe some phantasmagoric motive to the political party of the Republicans based off of the reign of King George Bush III, the recent wars, political maneuvering to block anything voted on by a "D", general obstructionism to the Obama admin and the fact that Fox News exists and some people take it as fucking gospel.

There. That was easy.

Or, not so much.

**sigh**

[Fear Itself]

And if Sarah Palin had been shot in the head? Is there any doubt there would be armed insurrection in the streets?

[crowmanyclouds]

He did so in an article telling other not to jump to conclusions, yet he was essentially doing that himself! In addition people who are suspecting the Tea Party are speaking that with certainty even though the evidence is a best ambigous (hint: Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf are among his favourite books).Try again, here's the question;

Why did people think that the suspect in the bungled Times Square, not even close to being a bomb, plot might possibly be a Tea Party follower?

CMC fnord!
Hint, it's right there in your P180 cite.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I wasn't clear. And by "phantasmagoric (fucking spelling?) I mean a deliberate attempt/insinuation/order to murder a political opponent.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

And if Sarah Palin had been shot in the head? Is there any doubt there would be armed insurrection in the streets?

By whom? My perception tells me that most people no matter their political affiliation are catching on to the fact that she's an idiot and stupidly inane with her politics.

This shooting is a condemnatory act, no matter what some voices on the TV/and/or in his head told him to do.

I agree that the nutjob TV/radio guys aren't helpful.

But when Rush calls for armed insurrection, I'm just going to ask for a few of his pills.

And i hate pills.

[crowmanyclouds]

So you are hanging your entire leftist argument on one word?A true right-wing American would never spell favorite with a U!

CMC fnord!

[Merneith]

Oh yes. That's much more reasonable.

I don't think that the term broad brush actually covers that statement. Really more of a paint sprayer mounted on a satellite in orbit above the planet. Like a Star Wars era intellectual defense system.

I blame the people who make inciteful remarks - and I blame the people who pay them too, encourage them to, or benefit from their doing so.

The audience who cheers Palin and O'Reilly (et al) on is responsible for financing and supporting their hateful remarks.

You're the one who mentioned vacuums.



And you left out whether or not you blame any kids these people have had, any other relatives who might not have voted the same way but didn't speak up enough to satisfy you, people they've sat next to in public transit or on an airplane.

Did the kids, relatives, bystanders, and seatmates donate to, vote for, campaign for, purchase merchandise from or in other ways, support, the Republicans who made the various inciteful remarks, quoted here or elsewhere?

Then yeah, they're to blame. They're also - wait for it - Republicans.

Palin's shit wouldn't sell if there wasn't a market for it. The market doesn't get a pass for pretending they weren't applauding just a minute a go.

[Harborwolf]

That's what I've been saying all along! Jesus. Where was the debate again?
:rolleyes:


The only point I am trying to make is just to illuminate just how quickly some here ascribe some phantasmagoric motive to the political party of the Republicans based off of the reign of King George Bush III, the recent wars, political maneuvering to block anything voted on by a "D", general obstructionism to the Obama admin and the fact that Fox News exists and some people take it as fucking gospel.

There. That was easy.

Or, not so much.

**sigh**It was easy for me to say. Apparently I did it in a sentence. You've had multiple posts to do the same thing and haven't seem to have done as well. Chin up though. Practice makes perfect.

And if Sarah Palin had been shot in the head? Is there any doubt there would be armed insurrection in the streets?I doubt it. Does that count as "any?"

[Club 33]

How do any of those things make it "undeniable that the most prominent right wing leaders in the U.S. have been implicitly and explicitly fomenting violence"?

And who are these "prominent right-wing leaders" you speak of? Are any of them currently holding a job as an elected official, or are they talk show hosts, guests on "The Factor" or what?


I'd call Palin a prominent person on the right, and her camp spent the day scurrying to remove all traces of those crosshairs aimed at this woman's name on their website. Surely there was no ill-intent involved in symbolically aiming a gun at her on their website.

[Fear Itself]

I doubt it. Does that count as "any?"Frankly? No.

[Harborwolf]

I blame the people who make inciteful remarks - and I blame the people who pay them too, encourage them to, or benefit from their doing so.

The audience who cheers Palin and O'Reilly (et al) on is responsible for financing and supporting their hateful remarks.

You're the one who mentioned vacuums.

Did the kids, relatives, bystanders, and seatmates donate to, vote for, campaign for, purchase merchandise from or in other ways, support, the Republicans who made the various inciteful remarks, quoted here or elsewhere?

Then yeah, they're to blame. They're also - wait for it - Republicans.

Palin's shit wouldn't sell if there wasn't a market for it. The market doesn't get a pass for pretending they weren't applauding just a minute a go.Once again I find myself in the presence of a statement so perfectly insane that there really is nothing to do but to let it stand on it's own. Anyone that has so much as purchased a Palin bumper sticker or watched the O'Reilly factor is also to blame for this shooting regardless of their actual reasons for doing so. A perfectly sound argument to make.

[Harborwolf]

Frankly? No.Aw. I never count.

Why do you think there would be an armed insurrection if Sarah Palin had been the one shot? Were the ratings of her reality show that high?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I'd call Palin a prominent person on the right, and her camp spent the day scurrying to remove all traces of those crosshairs aimed at this woman's name on their website. Surely there was no ill-intent involved in symbolically aiming a gun at her on their website.

I'd say that anyone that thinks Sarah Palin has anything relevant to say is delusional.

I also believe that most sane people no matter their political affiliation think Sarah is unelectable for (quote your reasons). She also is not a current serving social servant (she'd CRINGE at that title!) or is she doing anything other than ghost-written books and winky-Joe speaking tours.

She's a joke. Everyone knows it now. Get real.

I happen to agree with the general sentiment here that she's basically crazy.

That doesn't make her or anyone like her an accessory to murder, though. Some of you keep missing that. There is no 2nd Amendment Army of AR-15 armed crazies about to take down your passive resistance, liberals. Its OK.

[Llama Llogophile]

For what it's worth, the sheriff in Pima, Arizona had this to say (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot) about the shooting:

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous," the sheriff said. "And unfortunately, Arizona I think has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry."

[Euphonious Polemic]

I happen to agree with the general sentiment here that she's basically crazy.



There is still a significant (read Millions of people) group who do not think she's crazy. There a millions who think she would make the best President EVER, and that she is fantastic. There are millions who think that Beck and Limbaugh speak THE TRUTH, all the time.

From these millions, there are a very small subset who will take their insane ramblings about muslim socialists seriously. There is a smaller subset who will take their oblique references to "the second amendment" and crosshairs on politicians literally.

An assassination attempt was predicted months ago.

Of course the gunman will be crazy. A sane person does not shoot people. Unfortunately, he just MIGHT have been tipped over the edge by the stupid things said by some on the right.

[Harborwolf]

I'd say that anyone that thinks Sarah Palin has anything relevant to say is delusional.

I also believe that most sane people no matter their political affiliation think Sarah is unelectable for (quote your reasons). She also is not a current serving social servant (she'd CRINGE at that title!) or is she doing anything other than ghost-written books and winky-Joe speaking tours.

She's a joke. Everyone knows it now. Get real.

I happen to agree with the general sentiment here that she's basically crazy.

That doesn't make her or anyone like her an accessory to murder, though. Some of you keep missing that.Accessory to murder is strong for some. For me at least. I simply think that her words and actions have repercussions. People are listening to her. Her twitter farts make news as if they were credible opinions. Networks repeat her facebook posts. People follow her book tours. While a majority think she's unelectable, enough do that even the possibilty of her running gets serious consideration. Simply put, there are people that take her seriously, and Glenn Beck seriously, and Rush Limbaugh seriously. Hell, I work with a person who can tell you at great length how society is near collapse and how Glenn Beck is right. Dude has a bunker stocked with food for just such an occasion.

To say that no one believes these people or takes them seriously is simply wrong.

[John Mace]

I don't think the crazies out there need any inciting from the likes of Palin. Having said that, her rhetoric certainly doesn't help the pursuit of civil discourse.

[Harborwolf]

I don't think the crazies out there need any inciting from the likes of Palin. Having said that, her rhetoric certainly doesn't help the pursuit of civil discourse.My personal view is why take the chance? Crazies might not always need an excuse, but they don't need the push either and even reasonable people can be stirred into something rash. Think of the various vandalisms and death threats that have been popping up in recent months. Can all of them be attributed to crazies?

And saying it is detrimental to civil discourse seems to be understating it just a bit. It's certainly not as republic destroying as some would have you think, but people have and are going to continue to get hurt. The talk nowdays is so severe that I can look back fondly on the comparative reasonableness of Ann Coulter.

[Squink]

I don't think the crazies out there need any inciting from the likes of Palin. Having said that, her rhetoric certainly doesn't help the pursuit of civil discourse.

Even crazy plans need to start with an idea.
No one except a liar can deny that the right has been pushing the heck out of this violent rhetoric.
That rhetoric gives people, crazy or not, ideas they might not otherwise have.
How do you think the stupider birther conspira y started, by lots of people who don't need inciting having sudden private personal insights?
Of course not. That's stupid.
There was incitement, and it was effective.
Just like this morning.

[Walmarticus]

Even crazy plans need to start with an idea.
No one except a liar can deny that the right has been pushing the heck out of this violent rhetoric.
That rhetoric gives people, crazy or not, ideas they might not otherwise have.
How do you think the stupider birther conspira y started, by lots of people who don't need inciting having sudden private personal insights?
Of course not. That's stupid.
There was incitement, and it was effective.
Just like this morning.

So this dude was incited by rhetoric? Rightest rhetoric, no less.

Not by any account I have ever heard. He has no discernible ideology that I'm aware of. Politicize apparently senseless tragedy more, please. Moderates like me really appreciate it.

[Little Nemo]

I don't think the right wing is inciting any of the crazies out there. Nobody is going to shoot somebody just because Sarah Palin or Glen Beck said it was a good idea. The craziness already exists.

But people like Palin and Beck are responsible for the fact that they're offering guidance to crazies. They're not saying "Go out and shoot somebody." But they are saying "But if you are going to shoot somebody, here's some suggestions on who it should be."

[NurseCarmen]

So this dude was incited by rhetoric? Rightest rhetoric, no less.

Not by any account I have ever heard. He has no discernible ideology that I'm aware of. Politicize apparently senseless tragedy more, please. Moderates like me really appreciate it.
He's crazy, that's for sure. But if you watch his YouTube videos, you can glean some of his views.
*Only currency backed by precious metals is valid.
*The department of education is unconstitutional.
*Politicians need to read the constitution.
*Too many people in his district don't speak English.
Sounds to me like he's been fed a diet of Beck.

[F. U. Shakespeare]

Do you remember that back during the Times Square Bombing virtually everyone was saying the same "Its a Tea Partyier!" shit?No.

Hey pup, do you "remember" that in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing, "virtually" "everyone" was saying it was Arabs?

What's a Jesus Freak doing using the s-word? Some of us can communicate decently.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

When the answer turns out to be zero, I wonder how many of your prejudices you will be willing to rethink. Actually, I don't wonder at all.
What prejudice woulkd that be? That it's idiotic to shoot into a crowd? You disagree?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

No.

Hey pup, do you "remember" that in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing, "virtually" "everyone" was saying it was Arabs?
I'm pretty sure Qin wasn't born yet when OK City happened.


Qin, I don't know how much you know about that, but in the irst few days after the Oklahoma City bombing, the media (especially the right wing media) was all assuming it was Muslims.

[Walmarticus]

He's crazy, that's for sure. But if you watch his YouTube videos, you can glean some of his views.
*Only currency backed by precious metals is valid.
*The department of education is unconstitutional.
*Politicians need to read the constitution.
*Too many people in his district don't speak English.
Sounds to me like he's been fed a diet of Beck.

Are you shitting me? You can't glean shit unless you really really want to. He also thinks:

"removing you from the educational facility for talking is unconstitutional in the United States", "The police are working unconstitutionally", "The students are unconstitutionally paying for free education", "You shouldn't pay unconstitutional money for free speech",

He's a flag burner. He has the ability to create his own currency (whatever the fuck that means). He's apparently Godless.

A real Beck fan if ever I saw one.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I don't think the right wing is inciting any of the crazies out there. Nobody is going to shoot somebody just because Sarah Palin or Glen Beck said it was a good idea. The craziness already exists.

But people like Palin and Beck are responsible for the fact that they're offering guidance to crazies. They're not saying "Go out and shoot somebody." But they are saying "But if you are going to shoot somebody, here's some suggestions on who it should be."

They aren't even saying that. This is an insane conversation.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

He's crazy, that's for sure. But if you watch his YouTube videos, you can glean some of his views.
*Only currency backed by precious metals is valid.
*The department of education is unconstitutional.
*Politicians need to read the constitution.
*Too many people in his district don't speak English.
Sounds to me like he's been fed a diet of Beck.

Serious Republicans and/or conservatives in no way believe that the "department of education is unconstitutional".

I don't either.

[Walmarticus]

And does anyone know which video this bit comes from?
*Only currency backed by precious metals is valid.
I've heard it a couple times but can't find the reference.

[SteveG1]

I'll just leave Sarah Palin's Facebook page here:

http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/dont-get-demoralized-get-organized-take-back-the-20/373854973434

That's a nice target you got on the congresswoman there, Sarah.

I understand the "official" site was "scrubbed" almost immediately. I also understand some posters have been giving her holy hell too. I haven't looked, I don't want to give her site the "credit" of another web hit thing. Besides, there's nothing i want to say to her. While I don't believe by any stretch that she actually intended to incite murder, I do think her targets thing was dumber than shit all along. But stupid is not necessarily criminal, especially when we talk about the motivations of a lone maniac.

[SenorBeef]

Could one fucking right wing apologist just come out and say "Yep, the shit that Palin/Bachman/Beck/etc are spewing is inflammatory, apocalyptic, and could easily inspire the crazies. This sucks. I hate that they have support within my party. They do not represent me" instead of becoming your own little fucking fox news substation with the spin machine full on?

The funny thing is that even if this guy turns out to be something other than a right wing nutjob, you'll crow OH! WE WERE RIGHT! But... not really. Because it very easily could happen. The people you support and apologize for is trying to make it happen.

Look, when you spend years spewing propoganda to people in these apocalyptic terms, you change the whole nature of their thinking. When you tell them EVERYTHING YOU KNOW AND LOVE IS BEING DESTROYED! YOU ARE BEING TRICKED AND RULED BY A SECRET MUSLIM SOCIALIST COMMUNIST OUTSIDER THAT'S TRYING TO IMPLEMENT DEATH PANELS!!! the whole tone of the political landscape changes. People become far more radicalized. The crazies become empowered and catered to, and encouraged. It absolutely inspires people that might otherwise by mostly sieltnyl crazy that their cause is widespread and just and that they'll be worshipped as a hero if they take action by all of the millions of people buying into this shit.

Have some fucking dignity and stop apologizing for this absolutely evil bullshit. Reject it.

[F. U. Shakespeare]

I'm pretty sure Qin wasn't born yet when OK City happened.


Qin, I don't know how much you know about that, but in the irst few days after the Oklahoma City bombing, the media (especially the right wing media) was all assuming it was Muslims.I am VERY sure he wasn't born yet, just wanted to make sure his "memory" would be refuted (is that still a word?!) by someone who actually did remember this.

That's how we challenge superstition.

[Walmarticus]

Have some fucking dignity and stop apologizing for this absolutely evil bullshit. Reject it.

Not apologizing, but simply hang up your conclusion jumping until you know something. I don't like it when people assume (insert group) was responsible when there is absolutely no consequence to waiting a day and knowing for sure. You will know who's responsible. We'll all know.

Just wait. Adults wait. Please, chill. Waiting a day costs nothing. Earn some sweet, sweet internet integrity by pacing yourself. You'll peak too soon and crash.

[SenorBeef]

There's a more general apology going on. Most obviously would be FoeGras with his "sure, they may be doing their best to inspire people they know trust and listen to them to be driven to crazy shit, but since they don't have absolutely mind control over everyone then they aren't to blame at all!" stuff, but pretty much no one here is acknowledging that the fucking crazy over the top right wing rhetoric of recent times absolutely empowers this sort of crazy shit.

If this guy turns out to be something other than a right wing crazy, it'll essentially be coincidence - because this result is exactly the sort of thing those people are inspiring.

[marshmallow]

The problem with shooting a politician or two is that it doesn't do much. Bombing the Congress to rubble would be a start, but even that isn't very effective in the long term. Unless you're trying to militarize the country even more, I suppose.

I'm guessing the rhetoric will die down a bit now. Isn't that what happened after the OKC bombing? They just gotta let off some steam. No biggie.

[F. U. Shakespeare]

Serious Republicans and/or conservatives in no way believe that the "department of education is unconstitutional".

I don't either.

I'm trying to understand the difference between "serious" Republicans and/or conservatives and "true" Republicans and/or conservatives.

I think the distinction involves Schrute Bucks and Stanley nickles.

Failing that, here's some information:

Ex-Education Chiefs Seek to Abolish Agency
By Chronicle News Services | January 27, 1995
1995-01-27 04:00:00 PST Washington -- Two former education secretaries urged Congress yesterday to abolish the Department of Education saying it does little to help the nation's schools. Lamar Alexander who served in President George Bush's cabinet and William Bennett who served in President Ronald Reagan's said they believed students across the country would benefit from shifting the Education Department's programs and its budget either to states or to other federal agencies.

FWIW, one of these guys is still sucking at the public teat.

I'll give you even money who the other one is. ;)

[sleeping]

If this guy turns out to be something other than a right wing crazy, it'll essentially be coincidence - because this result is exactly the sort of thing those people are inspiring.

Thank you! This is what I have been trying to drive home over and over. Crazies don't try to figure out exactly what's being said; they don't care about the minutia. They hear, "Socialist! Nazi! Secret Muslim! Commie! Black supremacy!" and they feel that all their nutty ideas are being vindicated.

[Squink]

Politicize apparently senseless tragedy more, please. Moderates like me really appreciate it.You want it to be senseless real bad, don't you? I remember after 9/11, how people wanted OBL and his coconspirators to be senseless madmen. It didn't work out that way then, and if this current guy IS a madman, it still looks like he was pushed.
What are you going to do now, lean more to the right because someone dared utter something at odds with your vision of the middle?
Go right ahead. If that's your inclination, you probably belong over there anyway. Threatening to throw a hissy fit as you have is just a waste of time.

[Walmarticus]

You want it to be senseless real bad, don't you? I remember after 9/11, how people wanted OBL and his coconspirators to be senseless madmen. It didn't work out that way then, and if this current guy IS a madman, it still looks like he was pushed.
What are you going to do now, lean more to the right because someone dared utter something at odds with your vision of the middle?
Go right ahead. If that's your inclination, you probably belong over there anyway. Threatening to throw a hissy fit as you have is just a waste of time.

I'm saying that at this exact moment it is senseless. It doesn't make sense until we have facts. I'm not going to lean 1/2 of a pinky-cock of a degree in any direction because there is no consequence to waiting for information. None.

If this guy licks Beck's shit in the morning and sniffs Coulter's armpits, then I'll thrust leftly deftly. As of now, he does neither.

[John Mace]

Even crazy plans need to start with an idea.
No one except a liar can deny that the right has been pushing the heck out of this violent rhetoric.
That rhetoric gives people, crazy or not, ideas they might not otherwise have.
How do you think the stupider birther conspira y started, by lots of people who don't need inciting having sudden private personal insights?
Of course not. That's stupid.
There was incitement, and it was effective.
Just like this morning.
Eh. Right wing militia types have been around since before Palin and Beck were born. Those two are like the PG version of the real folks who stir up this shit. And it's not even clear that this guy was a right winger. He seems like some crazy mish-mash of ideologies. With an emphasis on crazy.

But if you've got proof that Palin and her ilk were this guy's inspiration, bring it. Until then, you're just a nutter conspiracy theorist.

[John Mace]

My personal view is why take the chance? Crazies might not always need an excuse, but they don't need the push either and even reasonable people can be stirred into something rash. Think of the various vandalisms and death threats that have been popping up in recent months. Can all of them be attributed to crazies?
Can they be called "reasonable"?

And saying it is detrimental to civil discourse seems to be understating it just a bit. It's certainly not as republic destroying as some would have you think, but people have and are going to continue to get hurt. The talk nowdays is so severe that I can look back fondly on the comparative reasonableness of Ann Coulter.
I can agree with that. Reputable folk should eschew any hint of advocating violence unless they really mean it and they really think that is the only solution to an intolerable situation.

[elucidator]

Wasn't there some totally innocent Muslim guy picked up and hassled after OK City?

[sleeping]

Clarence Dupnik, Sheriff of Pima County:


Let me just say one thing, because people tend to poo poo this about all the vitriol that we hear enflaming the American public by people who make a living off of doing that. That may be free speech, but it's not without consequences.
...
It's time to do a little soul searching about the rhetoric we hear on the radio, how are children are being raised. We have become the mecca for racism and bigotry.

[John Mace]

Clarence Dupnik, Sheriff of Pima County:

So?

[DxZero]

Clarence Dupnik, Sheriff of Pima County:

Why I agree completely with his statement and how he phrased it, I feel that he should have waited a bit before saying it. Things are still a little raw right now and this might rile people up even more.

[sleeping]

So?

Just that, among others, the sheriff of the county thinks political rhetoric helped push this guy to commit this act.

[SteveG1]

I'm saying that at this exact moment it is senseless. It doesn't make sense until we have facts. I'm not going to lean 1/2 of a pinky-cock of a degree in any direction because there is no consequence to waiting for information. None.

If this guy licks Beck's shit in the morning and sniffs Coulter's armpits, then I'll thrust leftly deftly. As of now, he does neither.

Some people are pissed off right now. Maybe they have a right to be. They are in no mood right now to hear YET AGAIN the urging to wait for the facts, because they are pissed off. Maybe also because "wait for the facts" too often means "wait until we can sweep stuff under the rug or invent an alibi or create a diversion".

Look. People have been calling for 2nd amendment solutions for a long time. People have been accusing others of being traitors or collaborators (or something or other) for a long time. There was no "wait for the facts" for them. So, after years of inflammatory rhetoric, people are now dead, including a nine year old child. That's the fact.

They are thinking maybe this crazy bastard got the idea from these shit heads who like to spew their bullshit on TV and radio - Beck, Palin, whoever the hell you like. Did they really intend to incite murder? Probably not, but it was still inflammatory, insulting to the rest of us and stupid as all fucking hell.

Accept it for what it is. It's anger. I'd say it's justified. Their anger is a hell of a lot more justified than was the death of several innocent people, by a loony who MAY have been egged on by bullshit rhetoric. People are dead. That is the fact.

Now there is the question of who is to blame. That deserves some hard answers. Maybe we can't send stupid people to jail, because there is a freedom of speech guarantee BY LAW, but we can stop deifying and supporting them.

[SteveG1]

Why I agree completely with his statement and how he phrased it, I feel that he should have waited a bit before saying it. Things are still a little raw right now and this might rile people up even more.

Why? He was calling for a return to reason. He was saying "shit is getting out of hand and we need to stop and think". Isn't that what ALL good people should be saying? Or do only the hacks and the psychos get to say what they want, when they want?

I'd rather hear this Sheriff Dupnik talking about calming down, than some slug like Beck, Palin, Limbaugh, or any other hack talking about second amendment solutions and taking their country back. This sheriff is making sense and you want HIM to stop? I don't think so.

[John Mace]

Just that, among others, the sheriff of the county thinks political rhetoric helped push this guy to commit this act.

So? If he has some actual evidence, I'm all ears. Otherwise, he's just another guy with an opinion. And his opinion is couched in weasel words about how children are being raised. Won't someone think of the children is usually the butt of jokes around here.

[DxZero]

Why? He was calling for a return to reason. He was saying "shit is getting out of hand and we need to stop and think". Isn't that what ALL good people should be saying? Or do only the hacks and the psychos get to say what they want, when they want?

I'd rather hear this Sheriff Dupnik talking about calming down, than some slug like Beck, Palin, Limbaugh, or any other hack talking about second amendment solutions and taking their country back. This sheriff is making sense and you want HIM to stop? I don't think so.

I want him to wait a day and I don't want a police official speculating to the media about any political motivations of a suspect while an investigation is ongoing.

[Walmarticus]

Some people are pissed off right now. Maybe they have a right to be. They are in no mood right now to hear YET AGAIN the urging to wait for the facts, because they are pissed off.
What do you mean "yet again"? When have people ever not been encouraged to think things through before they act. Bush even took a moment to think, after 9/11 (hurp-a-durpily).

And what happens if you wait 'till tomorrow to blame somebody? Seriously. Name a consequence.


Maybe also because "wait for the facts" too often means "wait until we can sweep stuff under the rug or invent an alibi or create a diversion".
Conspiracy much?

There is no evidence this is a second amendment solution. None. Chill homies.

[BrainGlutton]

What's with the thread title? I was unaware of Congresswoman Giffords until now, but a quick search on her indicates that despite her party affiliation she is fairly pro-Gun Ownership (opposed the D.C. gun ban.).

But I saw it mentioned on another forum that she "voted for Obamacare," which to some might make a "Second Amendment solution" warranted.

Not that this is actually political; probably no more than John Hinckley, Jr., shooting Reagan was political. More of a voices-in-the-head thing.

[sleeping]

So? If he has some actual evidence, I'm all ears. Otherwise, he's just another guy with an opinion. And his opinion is couched in weasel words about how children are being raised. Won't someone think of the children is usually the butt of jokes around here.

Never mind the part about the children. Yes, it's an opinion, but it's an opinion of a law enforcement official who is familiar with the community in which this occurred.
But as for the actual evidence, well copious amounts have been provided in this thread, from Beck doing a skit in which he poisons Pelosi to suggestions that a loss at the ballot box should be dealt with by exercise of firearms.

[Squink]

But if you've got proof that Palin and her ilk were this guy's inspiration, bring it. Until then, you're just a nutter conspiracy theorist.
Nah, you're just a guy who won't accept the simplest hypothesis as a starting point. In GD you mention YouTube, weird books as likely starting points. What's the penetrance of that shit compared to Fox News and rightwing radio?
You're flailing madly now because you don't like where the hypothesis leads.
Intellectual cowardice does not become you, john. You're supposed to be one of those good, honorable co nservatives. How about showing that by at least acknowledging that there's an epidemic of rw hate speech sweeping the nation?

[sleeping]

But I saw it mentioned on another forum that she "voted for Obamacare," which to some might make a "Second Amendment solution" warranted.

Not that this is actually political; probably no more than John Hinckley, Jr., shooting Reagan was political. More of a voices-in-the-head thing.

No, it is political, inasmuch as right-wing vitriol helped steer this delusional guy to commit these murders.

[elucidator]

Pretty much always has been, of one stripe or another, centered on one or another political outrage committed by godless degenerates. Or, in another word, "progress". And Beck, Palin, that ilk, don't so much advocate violence as they flirt with it, coyly, indirectly. It strokes the "tough guy" glands of middle aged fools who should know better, like they are men of action, rugged patriots.

But this guy? So far, he reads like a proto-typical early adult onset schizophrenic. Like from Central Casting., and there's no blaming anybody for crazy, not even him. Free will doesn't matter if the wires are all shorted out.

[SteveG1]

What do you mean "yet again"? When have people ever not been encouraged to think things through before they act. Bush even took a moment to think, after 9/11 (hurp-a-durpily).

And what happens if you wait 'till tomorrow to blame somebody? Seriously. Name a consequence.


Conspiracy much?

There is no evidence this is a second amendment solution. None. Chill homies.

Sometimes anger is a useful thing. The trick is to direct it in the right direction. As far as GWB and Iraq, that dog won't hunt for me. None of his "facts" bore out, starting with WMD and the link with Bin Laden. Bush doesn't even belong in this discussion.

[Squink]

. Free will doesn't matter if the wires are all shorted out.
Still, tangled, shorting wires respond unfavorably when you prod them around repeatedly using a crescent wrench.
As such, any shock the prodder receives is well deserved, even if the prodder is too damned stupid to know he's acting recklessly.