The Empire Strikes Back (do I still need to write SPOILERS for this?)

[PSXer]

Was Luke intending to kill himself by jumping off the ledge, or did he plan to escape by going through the vents or what?

[Mahaloth]

Good question.

I'd say "Here's hoping! I will trust the Force and not join the Dark Side!" is about as close to a plan as he had.

He was obviously right.

[Nicolas Bourbaki]

I always assumed he decided to kill himself rather than be captured.

[AClockworkMelon]

As far as I'm concerned it was obviously an attempted suicide. Fortunately luck (the Force) was on his side but I don't think he expected to survive when he let go.

[GuanoLad]

I'd say "Here's hoping! I will trust the Force and not join the Dark Side!" is about as close to a plan as he had.I haven't really thought about it, but this is also what I've felt he was doing. He sacrifices himself so he can't be a part of Vader's proposed plans, but he may also have had a hint of Force-prescience, giving him some confidence that there were possibilities of survival.

[RickJay]

I think it's deliberately vague. Luke has no way past Vader; he's beaten. So he simply lets go... the exact advice given to him at the end of Star Wars by Obi-Wan's ghost, although he takes it more literally.

He was willing to die, but he didn't seem hugely surprised when he didn't. He had two paths, one into Vader's arms, one to let go, and he chose to let go.

That moment fundamentally defines Luke Skywalker. He isn't always perfect - he's impetuous, whiny, and often doesn't think very far ahead. But he's good. He's incorruptible. Power doesn't interest him. He always chooses what's right.

[Llama Llogophile]

Good question.

I'd say "Here's hoping! I will trust the Force and not join the Dark Side!" is about as close to a plan as he had.

He was obviously right.

Actually, he was left. His right hand having been cut off moments earlier.

Somehow that joke was funnier when it was about Buster Bluth...

[The Second Stone]

I think Luke was prepared to die.

[Lasciel]

Weird.

I always saw that scene as accepting death rather than Vader. It's weird to think that it might have been an intentional escape route.

Eh - to me, that seems to make the scene a bit less powerful. I think I like it better the other way.

[Capitaine Zombie]

Hey, did you know the movie was directed by Irvin Kershner?
That guy did such a goo job on Robocop 2.

[Miller]

I don't think Luke wanted to die when he jumped, but I'm pretty sure he expected to.

[Student Driver]

Pity the whole meaning was changed in the Special Edition when Lucas changed it so that the ledge let go first.

[Miller]

Pity the whole meaning was changed in the Special Edition when Lucas changed it so that the ledge let go first.

Could be worse. I heard Steven Spielberg thought light sabers were too violent, and tried to convince Lucas to replace them with feather dusters.

[Autolycus]

Pity the whole meaning was changed in the Special Edition when Lucas changed it so that the ledge let go first.

Wait, is this serious? :mad:

Anyway, I'm not saying anything new, but I always thought that the only thing Luke knew at that point was that he was definitely not going to join up with Vader. He didn't want to die but he was willing for it to come to that. He probably had some subconscious bit of force-prescience going on too.

[Alka Seltzer]

It's not a suicide attempt, as he hangs on when he reaches the bottom. I can't remember it that clearly, but doesn't he then have a spot of telepathy with Leia, resulting in his rescue?

As far as I can work out, Luke rejects Vader by taking the only path available to him. He doesn't plan to die, but is prepared to. I don't think his escape plan is pre-meditated, I don't think he realises he can call Leia until he's at the bottom (else, why not call her before dropping, and give them more time to reach him?).

[Sablicious]

Was Luke intending to kill himself by jumping off the ledge, or did he plan to escape by going through the vents or what?
Methinks with all the emotional tumult bubbling over in his noggin'--having his hand severed, finding out about Darth Daddy--he problably didn't think a lot before doing what he did.

It was a choice of principles or power, and the power scared him. So in the spur of the moment, down he plummeted!

[DrFidelius]

Actually, he was left. His right hand having been cut off moments earlier.

Somehow that joke was funnier when it was about Buster Bluth...

But if either hand had been cut off, he would still have one left.

[AClockworkMelon]

It's not a suicide attempt, as he hangs on when he reaches the bottom.

...

I don't think his escape plan is pre-meditated, I don't think he realises he can call Leia until he's at the bottom (else, why not call her before dropping, and give them more time to reach him?).
Of course he hangs on when he reaches the bottom; he's escaped Vader by this point. He leaped to his death in order to escape Vader, but happened to survive. He likely expected to just go splat in that huge chamber he was fighting Vader in. But now that he's escaped Vader he can look for a way to get out of his current jam. He doesn't call Leia immediately- first he tries to climb back into the tube but the hatch seals itself. It's only when he thinks he's completely fucked that he, in desperation, tries calling out for Leia.

[Only Mostly Dead]

But if either hand had been cut off, he would still have one left.

That's right.

[Stranger On A Train]

Hey, did you know the movie was directed by Irvin Kershner?
That guy did such a goo job on Robocop 2.In fact, Empire was pretty much the only good film he ever directed, but it is a great one, if perhaps only accidentally. The climactic fight between Vader and Luke, culminating in Vader's reveal and the severing of Luke's hand was one of the most utterly shocking and visceral moments in movie history, and despite now being a cultural meme still carries a lot of weight in the context of the film (as is Solo being frozen in carbonite). It's a pity that Return of the Jedi was largely such a disappointment.

Stranger

[Capitaine Zombie]

In fact, Empire was pretty much the only good film he ever directed, but it is a great one, if perhaps only accidentally. The climactic fight between Vader and Luke, culminating in Vader's reveal and the severing of Luke's hand was one of the most utterly shocking and visceral moments in movie history, and despite now being a cultural meme still carries a lot of weight in the context of the film (as is Solo being frozen in carbonite). It's a pity that Return of the Jedi was largely such a disappointment.

Stranger

I disagree on both stances, I like Robocop 2, and ROTJ, while not up to the the level of Empire has some of the best moments of the whole trilogy. I'm definitely thinking of the scene where the Emperor is getting a hard on electrocuting Luke, the travelling move forward on Vader's face with the lightning reflected on his helmet, never saw a mask so full of expression, you can really feel his torment (and the whole duel scene is great).
The flying bikes scene is also really really good, had the chance to rewatch it when it was rereleased in a very good theatre with giant screen and really good sound, it's an amazing scene.

[Capitaine Zombie]

Of course he hangs on when he reaches the bottom; he's escaped Vader by this point. He leaped to his death in order to escape Vader, but happened to survive. He likely expected to just go splat in that huge chamber he was fighting Vader in. But now that he's escaped Vader he can look for a way to get out of his current jam. He doesn't call Leia immediately- first he tries to climb back into the tube but the hatch seals itself. It's only when he thinks he's completely fucked that he, in desperation, tries calling out for Leia.

On the other hand, it's a very good set up for the future revelation that Leia can wield the Force.

[AClockworkMelon]

ROTJ would have been perfect if not for two things:

1.) EWOKS
2.) Convoluted plan to rescue Han.

[Alka Seltzer]

Of course he hangs on when he reaches the bottom; he's escaped Vader by this point. He leaped to his death in order to escape Vader, but happened to survive. He likely expected to just go splat in that huge chamber he was fighting Vader in. But now that he's escaped Vader he can look for a way to get out of his current jam. He doesn't call Leia immediately- first he tries to climb back into the tube but the hatch seals itself. It's only when he thinks he's completely fucked that he, in desperation, tries calling out for Leia.

Uh, isn't that exactly what I said?

[AClockworkMelon]

You said it wasn't a suicide attempt. I disagree.

[bramma23]

I disagree on both stances, I like Robocop 2, and ROTJ, while not up to the the level of Empire has some of the best moments of the whole trilogy. I'm definitely thinking of the scene where the Emperor is getting a hard on electrocuting Luke, the travelling move forward on Vader's face with the lightning reflected on his helmet, never saw a mask so full of expression, you can really feel his torment (and the whole duel scene is great).
The flying bikes scene is also really really good, had the chance to rewatch it when it was rereleased in a very good theatre with giant screen and really good sound, it's an amazing scene.

I might be parsing the semantics of the quotation but I just want to point out that Kershner didn't direct ROTJ, Lucas did.

Although I can't tell if you're defending ROTJ as a good movie or a good movie that Kershner directed.

[Alka Seltzer]

Ah, I see. Personally, I don't think it can be called a suicide attempt, even if Luke was prepared to die to escape Vader. Luke's choice was to reject Vader, even if it cost him his life. He didn't jump with the goal of killing himself, even if that was the likely outcome. Small distinction maybe.

[Capitaine Zombie]

I might be parsing the semantics of the quotation but I just want to point out that Kershner didn't direct ROTJ, Lucas did.

Although I can't tell if you're defending ROTJ as a good movie or a good movie that Kershner directed.

Nope, Lucas only directed the very first SW (and I never implied Kershner did), it's Richard Marquand that directed RotJ. And I'm defending RotJ as a very good movie, certainly superior to ANH.

[bramma23]

Nope, Lucas only directed the very first SW (and I never implied Kershner did), it's Richard Marquand that directed RotJ. And I'm defending RotJ as a very good movie, certainly superior to ANH.

Yeah, it was more based on the person you quoted saying that Empire Strikes Back was the only movie that Kershner directed was good and then adding on something about ROTJ being a disappointment. And my mistake on the Marquand, I don't know where I got the idea that Lucas did all of them except for ESB.

[Capitaine Zombie]

Yeah, it was more based on the person you quoted saying that Empire Strikes Back was the only movie that Kershner directed was good and then adding on something about ROTJ being a disappointment. And my mistake on the Marquand, I don't know where I got the idea that Lucas did all of them except for ESB.

No problem, when I was a kid I thought Lucas had directed all of them. Later I got to see the very first SW:A New Hope. I found it quite boring compared to the two others, and realized then it was the only one Lucas had directed.

[The Second Stone]

...I'm definitely thinking of the scene where the Emperor is getting a hard on electrocuting Luke, the travelling move forward on Vader's face with the lightning reflected on his helmet, never saw a mask so full of expression, you can really feel his torment (and the whole duel scene is great).


You need to watch this scene on DVD very closely with the pause button. What happens on Vader's helmet is quite interesting, but it is very quick.

[Capitaine Zombie]

You need to watch this scene on DVD very closely with the pause button. What happens on Vader's helmet is quite interesting, but it is very quick.

Yeah they imprinted a subliminal image of an Ewok.




















I last saw ROTJ when it was rereleased but either on my TV or on a theatre screen I always had the feeling that some kind of subliminal image was being used, maybe Vader's true face, but I always had the feeling it was a skull being used. Can you spoil it for me?

[EvilTOJ]

OK I just played that scene over and over, I'm not seeing anything there.

Every time I've seen that scene, I've always thought Luke's thought process went "Well I'm not staying here, and that way's no good. And seriously, fuck that guy! I'll just fall. I don't know how I'm going to get out of this but I'll figure it out" Then again this is starting from when I was a kid, I guess I just never thought anything else about it.

[Llama Llogophile]

OK I just played that scene over and over, I'm not seeing anything there.


We're talking about when the Emperor has finally resolved to kill Luke, right? And Darth Vader watches for a moment, then grabs him and tosses him down the big pipe?

When I advance it frame by frame (this is the original release, not the jazzed up versions that Lucas messed around with) I see Vader's skeletal structure briefly reflected by the lightning. You can see bits of hardware as well as normal bones. Anything else?

I agree that the mask of Vader is hauntingly expressive in those few moments before he makes his decision to get rid of the Emperor.

[Red Barchetta]

When I advance it frame by frame (this is the original release, not the jazzed up versions that Lucas messed around with) I see Vader's skeletal structure briefly reflected by the lightning. You can see bits of hardware as well as normal bones. Anything else?

Here's a link with some screen shots for those interested...

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/injuries.html#skeleton

[The Second Stone]

Remember that the mask in its normal condition looks like a skull.

[GuanoLad]

And my mistake on the Marquand, I don't know where I got the idea that Lucas did all of them except for ESB.There's a popular belief, which I subscribe to, that Richard Marquand was so out of his depth with a big effects movie, that Lucas effectively directed most of it anyway. He had to step in so often for the effects and action sequences, which are 80% of the movie, that Marquand ended up doing very little.

[The Second Stone]

There's a popular belief, which I subscribe to, that Richard Marquand was so out of his depth with a big effects movie, that Lucas effectively directed most of it anyway. He had to step in so often for the effects and action sequences, which are 80% of the movie, that Marquand ended up doing very little.

Somebody helped the actors in ROTJ to get far beyond the wooden cliches' of the films Lucas has a directing credit on. Guiness and Cushing managed to get beyond it in ANH, and MacGregor and McDirmand managed it in the prequels, but nobody else did and they are all fine actors. ESB and ROTH have far better performances than the other films. This is not coincidence. Lucas has trouble writing dialogue and directing actors.