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Grrr!
01-14-2011, 09:43 PM
I was surprised to learn that this actually happens. Which I can only imagine, makes it THAT much more emotionally damaging to the victim.

Rachellelogram
01-14-2011, 09:51 PM
A woman's orgasms are more mental than physiological. The incidence of female orgasm during voluntary penis-in-vagina intercourse is less than 30% according to Doctor Drew (no cite here, I'm at work and interesting sites are blocked). Most women do not have orgasms just from penetration, even when they want to be having sex. I don't have a statistic but I assume the incidence of female orgasm during penetrative rape is extremely low.

As far as the incidence of male orgasm while being raped by a female who puts his penis into her vagina, THAT might be higher since male orgasms are more physiological, and this type of rape is only possible when the penis is hard. And the penis can become hard from stroking, even if the male fervently does not want the sex to happen.

KellyCriterion
01-14-2011, 09:56 PM
I got the impression from the OP that they were more interested in male climax when a man is raping a woman.

Could be wrong though.

Rachellelogram
01-14-2011, 10:07 PM
Most incidences of male rape of females end with the male climaxing. Why would he be asking about the rarity of something that happens all the time?

Not to be rude, but climax is one of the main points of rape. A guy isn't going to start raping a woman, then stop without orgasming... what would be the point?

Grrr!
01-14-2011, 10:09 PM
I got the impression from the OP that they were more interested in male climax when a man is raping a woman.

Could be wrong though.

No I meant the woman.

Apollon
01-14-2011, 10:49 PM
Most incidences of male rape of females end with the male climaxing. Why would he be asking about the rarity of something that happens all the time?

Not to be rude, but climax is one of the main points of rape. A guy isn't going to start raping a woman, then stop without orgasming... what would be the point?

Actually, I always hear is that the exact opposite is the case, but I can't find any cite to support either the one nor the other.

Rachellelogram
01-14-2011, 10:55 PM
Actually, I always hear is that the exact opposite is the case, but I can't find any cite to support either the one nor the other.
It's not a study that can be ethically set up. And a rapist is not going to be a reliable self-reporter. I don't have a citation either, so I'm willing to step back on my assertion. But it seems like common sense that male rapes of females would usually end with the rapist orgasming.

I do wonder why you (or anyone) would have the impression that a male would not typically orgasm while raping a woman?

ramel
01-14-2011, 11:10 PM
Most incidences of male rape of females end with the male climaxing. Why would he be asking about the rarity of something that happens all the time?

Not to be rude, but climax is one of the main points of rape. A guy isn't going to start raping a woman, then stop without orgasming... what would be the point?

I've heard that rape often isn't about sex, but about power. And that it's not that rare for the rapist to have trouble maintaining or getting an erection.

Crazyhorse
01-14-2011, 11:10 PM
In those cases where it could be known that the victim climaxed, whatever the frequency, it would certainly be a revelation that came possibly even years later during therapy or somesuch and not as a part of the initial crime report if one was ever even filed. So it would probably be very difficult or impossible to even estimate a percentage. It is safe to say it is relatively low but does happen. It is also safe to say out of those who have been studied they did report that it increased their confusion, emotional damage, and sense of blaming themselves for the crime. (this was gleaned by Googling "study frequency of climax during rape" and navigating to a few book results which generally wound up leading to cites from the Kinsey Institute).

It is worth noting that both men and women can orgasm when receiving severe physical or emotional trauma completely unrelated to sexual activity (e.g. being decapitated or hung, car accidents, spinal injuries, etc have resulted in orgasm). Some rapes can be so violent and traumatic they could be likened to this level of intense physiological overload response.

Some minority of women also entertain rape fantasies. Some to the point they role play these fantasies with their consenting partners. If you assume a small minority of women have strong and frequently exercised rape fantasies and achieve orgasms with their consenting partners while role playing them, it isn't a huge stretch to speculate that if confronted with the actual act some of them might involuntarily orgasm. Even if they are terrified, hurt and completely disgusted by the reality of the situation vs. the fantasy, if those elements have been the basis of a deep-seated sexual fantasy it could happen. Obviously those who fantasize about rape generally fantasize about a much less violent, must less terrifying experience and with someone they are physically attracted to. Women who frequently fantasize also show higher rates of orgasm during masturbation and intercourse in general (Arndt, Foehl, & Good, 1985; Leitenberg & Henning, 1995). Many women report that sexual fantasies help them achieve orgasm and increase sexual arousal (Davidson & Hoffman, 1986; Hariton & Singer, 1974; Sue, 1979). Evidence also shows that some women are able to use fantasies to reach orgasm without any type of physical stimulation (Kinsey, Pomeroy, Martin & Gebhard, 1953; Mah & Binik, 2001; Whipple, Ogden, & Komisaruk, 1992). Recent studies have found the same physiological response during orgasm induced by self induced imagery (fantasies) and genital self stimulation (Stock & Geer, 1982; Whipple, et al., 1992).

Argent Towers
01-14-2011, 11:48 PM
I've heard that rape often isn't about sex, but about power.

I wish we had a sticky about this topic.

needscoffee
01-15-2011, 12:02 AM
nvm

TriPolar
01-15-2011, 01:09 AM
It matters as much as the reaction of the knee joint to the rubber hammer. Rape is not about physiologiical reactions, it is about the enduring emotional results.

Jonathan Chance
01-15-2011, 08:16 AM
It's not a study that can be ethically set up. And a rapist is not going to be a reliable self-reporter. I don't have a citation either, so I'm willing to step back on my assertion. But it seems like common sense that male rapes of females would usually end with the rapist orgasming.

I do wonder why you (or anyone) would have the impression that a male would not typically orgasm while raping a woman?

No cite other than a criminal behavior class I took in college but one of the guest lecturers pointed out to us that she was amazed how often, during rape cases, they don't find any semen in the victim even though there were other signs of penetration.

HMS Irruncible
01-15-2011, 08:59 AM
It's not a study that can be ethically set up. And a rapist is not going to be a reliable self-reporter..
Rape kits are taken. Victims can report what they experience. There are factual, measurable answers to these questions, so you can really feel free to stop acting as if there's nothing to go on but your common sense.

WhyNot
01-15-2011, 09:09 AM
Rape kits are taken. Victims can report what they experience. There are factual, measurable answers to these questions, so you can really feel free to stop acting as if there's nothing to go on but your common sense.

Rape kits can detect if the male ejaculated, some of the time. If he wore a condom, it won't. If he performed multiple penetrative rapes and there's some semen, you can't tell if he ejaculated every time. Since orgasm and ejaculation in men is correlated, not identical, you can't tell if he orgasmed or not for sure (although it's very likely that if there is semen, he probably orgasmed at least once.)

It can tell you nothing about whether a female orgasmed. And I strongly, very strongly, suspect that "Did you come?" isn't on the interrogation checklist. It's irrelevant to the investigation, and sharing the answer, if affirmative, can be considered very likely to make the woman's experience far more traumatic in the very early stages of the recovery process. Just hearing the question can be horrible, as it suggests that whole line of "she wanted it" blame the victim thinking.

Bricker
01-15-2011, 11:01 AM
It's not a study that can be ethically set up. And a rapist is not going to be a reliable self-reporter. I don't have a citation either, so I'm willing to step back on my assertion. But it seems like common sense that male rapes of females would usually end with the rapist orgasming.

I do wonder why you (or anyone) would have the impression that a male would not typically orgasm while raping a woman?

Certainly it's a study that can ethically done.

In 1977, in fact, A. Nicholas Gorth, PhD, and Ann Wolbert Burgess, R.N., reported on the results of just such a study in the New England Journal of Medicine. (Oct 6. 1977 pp 764-766)

They broke out sexual dysfunction from rapists into three categories:

"Erective inadequacy," which they defined as the rapist's partial or complete failure or attain or maintain an erection. They noted that some cases were further defined as "conditional impotence," in which the rapist displayed initial erective incompetence but forced the victim to stimulate him orally or manually, or where the victim's struggles in response to the assault produced the erection.

"Premature ejactulation," where ejaculation occurs before or immediately upon penetration.

"Ejaculatory incompetence," in which extended intromission by the rapist did not result in ejaculation at all.

Thirty-four percent of the cases they studied contained some sexual dysfunction as defined above. Another twenty percent were reported as not applicable to determining whether sexual dysfunction existed, due to:


No attempt at penetration
Assault interrupted
Successful resistance by victim


Twenty-one percent of the cases did not provide sufficient data to draw a conclusion. Only twenty-five percent of the cases studied had no sexual dysfunction present.

Of the thirty-four percent mentioned above:


16 percent showed erective inadequacy (impotence)
3 percent showed premature ejaculation
15 percent showed ejaculatory incompetence (no ejaculation)


As the authors go on to discuss, there was a substantial amount of ejaculatory dysfunction, especially ejaculatory incomptence, when considered in comparison to the general population. This is an infrequent complaint, affecting about 1 in 700 men, yet it was the second major cause of sexual dysfunction among rapists.

Analysis of hospital records and rape kits bear this conclusion out. Of 23 victims that encountered multiple rapists during their attack, fully half tested negative for sperm.

In short, if indeed "common sense" suggests that male rapes of females would usually end with the rapist orgasming, then "common sense," is wrong.

HMS Irruncible
01-15-2011, 02:07 PM
Rape kits can detect if the male ejaculated, some of the time. If he wore a condom, it won't. If he performed multiple penetrative rapes and there's some semen, you can't tell if he ejaculated every time. Since orgasm and ejaculation in men is correlated, not identical, you can't tell if he orgasmed or not for sure (although it's very likely that if there is semen, he probably orgasmed at least once.)
I'm not saying rape kits represent a complete factual picture, only that the data is available, and it offers a more complete representation of reality than one person's common sense and heartfelt opinion. See Bricker's cite for details.

Mean Mr. Mustard
01-15-2011, 05:16 PM
A woman's orgasms are more mental than physiological. The incidence of female orgasm during voluntary penis-in-vagina intercourse is less than 30%... <snip>

I think you missed the OP's intent by, oh, a million miles.


mmm

Exapno Mapcase
01-15-2011, 05:46 PM
I was surprised to learn that this actually happens. Which I can only imagine, makes it THAT much more emotionally damaging to the victim.

Could you give us the cite where you heard this, so we can evaluate how real it is?

dracoi
01-16-2011, 02:13 AM
Could you give us the cite where you heard this, so we can evaluate how real it is?

I cannot speak for the OP, but I recall reading a rape survivor's story in which it happened. It was a date rape by her boyfriend and there was fooling around going on willingly before he decided to go all the way by force. She said that having an orgasm during the rape made her feel like her body betrayed her and that it made emotional recovery more difficult.

even sven
01-16-2011, 09:59 AM
The idea that women are not physically sexual creatures is warmed over Victorian BS. Yes, with enough training (which our society is often glad to offer) you can damper your sexual response. But friction is friction, and certain kinds of friction will lead to orgasm despite whatever your mind is thinking. Penis-vag friction may not be the "right kind" of friction for all women, but it certainly is for some.

RickJay
01-16-2011, 10:05 AM
I think you missed the OP's intent by, oh, a million miles.
The OP disagrees. See post 5.

Bricker
01-16-2011, 10:08 AM
There's a huge amount of commentary where people make the same basic assertions: that female orgasms happens during rape, and that it's not uncommon. None of them cite to any authority to support those statements.

Here is an account (http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2008/03/a_real_campus_r_2.html) of a stranger rape in which the victim experiences orgasm during the act, and strikes me as a credible recounting.

Jormungandr
01-16-2011, 04:24 PM
If one is depending on a rapist's statements, he might confuse a woman's natural lubrication for an orgasm. I really want to say it was on "Slate," but I can't remember (which seems to be happening today a lot). There was an article last year mentioned that a woman's body would release more vaginal lubrication as a defensive measure to limit some of the physical damage than there would be with a "dry" vagina caused by the rape.

Bam Boo Gut
01-16-2011, 05:41 PM
She said that having an orgasm during the rape made her feel like her body betrayed her and that it made emotional recovery more difficult.

The body just reacts on its own.

Some rapists can't even get a hard on let alone ejaculate - that's all part of the issue.

Bricker
01-16-2011, 08:06 PM
If one is depending on a rapist's statements, he might confuse a woman's natural lubrication for an orgasm. I really want to say it was on "Slate," but I can't remember (which seems to be happening today a lot). There was an article last year mentioned that a woman's body would release more vaginal lubrication as a defensive measure to limit some of the physical damage than there would be with a "dry" vagina caused by the rape.

Yes, which is why I provided a cite in which the VICTIM reported the orgasm.

kanicbird
01-17-2011, 10:00 AM
There was a thread a long time ago, maybe when the SD was on AOL, where it was mentioned that the woman climaxing was at one time a defense against rape, basically she wanted it and therefore no didn't mean no.

I've heard it happens, and it also has the tendency of having the woman of having feel their body betray them, adding to damage.

Bricker
01-17-2011, 10:23 AM
I've heard it happens, and it also has the tendency of having the woman of having feel their body betray them, adding to damage.

This response suggests to me that you didn't read this thread, because it fails to acknowledge that this observation has been made multiple times:

It is safe to say it is relatively low but does happen. It is also safe to say out of those who have been studied they did report that it increased their confusion, emotional damage, and sense of blaming themselves for the crime. (this was gleaned by Googling "study frequency of climax during rape" and navigating to a few book results which generally wound up leading to cites from the Kinsey Institute).


And I strongly, very strongly, suspect that "Did you come?" isn't on the interrogation checklist. It's irrelevant to the investigation, and sharing the answer, if affirmative, can be considered very likely to make the woman's experience far more traumatic in the very early stages of the recovery process.

I cannot speak for the OP, but I recall reading a rape survivor's story in which it happened. It was a date rape by her boyfriend and there was fooling around going on willingly before he decided to go all the way by force. She said that having an orgasm during the rape made her feel like her body betrayed her and that it made emotional recovery more difficult.

Did you in fact read any of those posts?

kanicbird
01-17-2011, 11:20 AM
This response suggests to me that you didn't read this thread, because it fails to acknowledge that this observation has been made multiple times:







Did you in fact read any of those posts?

I did read the thread and those replys to the OP including those 3 that you pointed out.

It does not negate my post in any way, nor negated what they have added and adds a potential search for anyone interested or perhaps someone will remember it better. Further I do not need to justify my posting in this thread to you so why did you make this post?

Why didn't you post such a reply to WhyNot and Dracoi because Crazyhorse posted something likewise Bricker?

Bricker
01-17-2011, 04:27 PM
I did read the thread and those replys to the OP including those 3 that you pointed out.

It does not negate my post in any way, nor negated what they have added and adds a potential search for anyone interested or perhaps someone will remember it better. Further I do not need to justify my posting in this thread to you so why did you make this post?

Why didn't you post such a reply to WhyNot and Dracoi because Crazyhorse posted something likewise Bricker?

Nor did I claim it "negated" their posts. I said by posting what you did without the slightest indication that it was duplicative, it gave the impression you weren't aware of the earlier posts.

Your motive was "adding a potential search," eh?

]I can tell you that both WhyNot's and Dracoi's posts, while containing the same information yours did, also had something additional. Only yours was completely cumulative of previous information and completely failed to acknowledge that fact.

slimjimpencil
03-27-2016, 04:22 PM
There's a huge amount of commentary where people make the same basic assertions: that female orgasms happens during rape, and that it's not uncommon. None of them cite to any authority to support those statements.

Here is an account (http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2008/03/a_real_campus_r_2.html) of a stranger rape in which the victim experiences orgasm during the act, and strikes me as a credible recounting.
http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2008/03/a_real_campus_r_2.html

What were your physical sensations?

It seemed unreal, but I was very aware of being flat on my back on a cold cement floor, with this stranger fucking me. I didn't smell much of anything except a wet-earth garden smell.

It did hurt when he entered me. I don't think he noticed that I had my period. He certainly didn't notice that I had a tampon in me. Strangely, I had an orgasm.

Was that disorienting? I've read that women who orgasm during rape often feel guilt or shame.

Yeah, I felt shame. My body betrayed me by reacting when my mind was so against it. I remember hating myself because I had an orgasm.

I think it's extremely important for rape victims to know that orgasm during rape is not them consenting to the act. and in many cases, i'ts your body's natural response to stimulation. however, i do wonder if the physical sensations that lead to orgasm are ALWAYS a case of the body defending itself or is it just simply the body enjoying a sensation that was meant to be pleasurable. the clitoris can't tell if it's a woman's husband or attacker that is performing cunnilingus on her. likewise, the vagina walls can't tell if the thickness filling them up is the girth of her husband or an attacker. the body just responds to what feels good and in some cases (maybe even many) it's not necessarily 'defense' but simply an automatic response to stimuli meant to be pleasurable. if anyone is confused by the difference, defense as i refer to it, is the body guarding or protecting the vagina from damage by 'self-lubricating' versus physical 'enjoyment' where the vagina/clitoris "likes" the sensations they are feeling and lubricate even if the victim is resisting.

spamforbrains
03-27-2016, 07:14 PM
An actual factual answer to the question is impossible. How are you going to study it? We don't even know for sure how many rapes happen each year.

I suspect actual pleasure and orgasms during rape are far more common during attacks on young pubescent individuals than they are during date-rapes or other rapes on adults. The emotional fallout of a young teenager (boy or girl) who was coerced/forced into an act and then experiences pleasure despite not wanting to participate must be incredible.

Wesley Clark
03-27-2016, 10:58 PM
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/science-arousal-during-rape

"I've assisted more young women than I can count with this very issue…There have been very few studies on orgasm during rape, but the research so far shows numbers from 10% to over 50% having this experience. In my experience as a therapist, it has been somewhat less than half of the girls/women I've worked with. (For the record, I have worked with very few boys/men who reported this.) In professional discussions, colleagues report similar numbers."

If true, a rate of 50% is higher than the rate of orgasm among women who have voluntary PIV sex with someone they are attracted to.

A hypothesis (please don't kill the messenger on this one) for this issue is that orgasm increases the odds of fertilization due to uterine contractions helping sperm move within the fallopian tubes. If a woman gets impregnated by a rapist, and he grows up to become a rapist (rather than someone who impregnates women via gaining resources or having good genetics) that creates an incentive to get pregnant via rape. Women who get pregnant via rape have kids who become rapists and get other women pregnant, and the genes spread.

Basically, we are evolved from a long line of rapists and rape victims.

Then again, a child needs a lot of material and psychological resources and a child of rape is not going to be wanted nearly as much as a child born of a voluntary pair bond. So you'd assume in human history a lot of children of rape were neglected, abused or killed by their mothers which means the genes wouldn't spread.

Ambivalid
03-27-2016, 11:19 PM
If a woman gets impregnated by a rapist, and he grows up to become a rapist (rather than someone who impregnates women via gaining resources or having good genetics) that creates an incentive to get pregnant via rape.

What? I don't understand your logic here. Maybe I'm just tired..

puddleglum
03-28-2016, 09:38 AM
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/science-arousal-during-rape



If true, a rate of 50% is higher than the rate of orgasm among women who have voluntary PIV sex with someone they are attracted to.

A hypothesis (please don't kill the messenger on this one) for this issue is that orgasm increases the odds of fertilization due to uterine contractions helping sperm move within the fallopian tubes. If a woman gets impregnated by a rapist, and he grows up to become a rapist (rather than someone who impregnates women via gaining resources or having good genetics) that creates an incentive to get pregnant via rape. Women who get pregnant via rape have kids who become rapists and get other women pregnant, and the genes spread.

Basically, we are evolved from a long line of rapists and rape victims.

Then again, a child needs a lot of material and psychological resources and a child of rape is not going to be wanted nearly as much as a child born of a voluntary pair bond. So you'd assume in human history a lot of children of rape were neglected, abused or killed by their mothers which means the genes wouldn't spread.
In the article it says that 4 to 5% of rape victims report orgasm. The therapist you quote seems to be dealing with survivors of statutory rape which causes psychological damage but is not always traumatic in the moment.

md2000
03-28-2016, 10:29 AM
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/science-arousal-during-rape



If true, a rate of 50% is higher than the rate of orgasm among women who have voluntary PIV sex with someone they are attracted to.

A hypothesis (please don't kill the messenger on this one) for this issue is that orgasm increases the odds of fertilization due to uterine contractions helping sperm move within the fallopian tubes. If a woman gets impregnated by a rapist, and he grows up to become a rapist (rather than someone who impregnates women via gaining resources or having good genetics) that creates an incentive to get pregnant via rape. Women who get pregnant via rape have kids who become rapists and get other women pregnant, and the genes spread.

Basically, we are evolved from a long line of rapists and rape victims.

Then again, a child needs a lot of material and psychological resources and a child of rape is not going to be wanted nearly as much as a child born of a voluntary pair bond. So you'd assume in human history a lot of children of rape were neglected, abused or killed by their mothers which means the genes wouldn't spread.

As you point out, this may be a short-term reproductive strategy... but:

-it often takes a lot of close encounters of the penetrative kind before a woman becomes pregnant. Random opportunistic forced intercourse probably has a much lower success rate than a regular couple's relationship.

-until the advent of agriculture, say 5,000 to 10,00 years ago, humans lived in small tribes. Certain behaviours are not compatible with living in small groups. Someone using rape as a reproductive strategy probably risked not only rejection of his children, but also risked life and limb (or other appendage) himself. Male jealously is a strongly ingrained trait, for specifically that reason.


* * *
I recall reading an article discussing women's rape fantasies. Usually, these revolved around desirable males forcing themselves on the woman. It was suggested that most societies, being male dominated, used social pressure to prevent women from exploring their sexuality. Imagining that they "had no choice" was a safe out for women's fantasies, it's not their fault so they are not violating social codes; just as a male fantasizes that women throw themselves at him, thereby bypassing the difficult task of persuasion or seduction, or violating social codes against acts like adultery. In neither case is it an indication that they want undesirable strangers to have their way, and is unlikely to mean they are excited during the act.

WhyNot
03-28-2016, 11:20 AM
Yes, our bodies may very well "like" an aggressive mate who does not shy away from violence, as one reproductive strategy.

And/or a psychologist or psychiatrist is likely to see a self selected sample of victims, those who were most emotionally traumatized by their attacks...which could easily skew to those who feel their body betrayed them by orgasming.

spamforbrains
03-28-2016, 11:57 AM
Yes, our bodies may very well "like" an aggressive mate who does not shy away from violence, as one reproductive strategy.

Most women's bodies seem to feel nothing but pain during acts of rape, according to reports by the victims. Many women suffer significant vaginal tearing and physical damage.

spamforbrains
03-28-2016, 12:08 PM
As to the other question, do men climax during rape, apparently many rapists do indeed have performance problems:

J Sex Med. 2013 Jul;10(7):1744-54. doi: 10.1111/jsm.12188. Epub 2013 May 13.
The sexual functioning profile of a nonforensic sample of individuals reporting sexual aggression against women.
Carvalho J1, Quinta-Gomes A, Nobre PJ.
Author information
Abstract
INTRODUCTION:
Sexual offenders are believed to present marked sexual difficulties. However, most of the studies characterizing sex offenders' sexual functioning were conducted with samples of documented/incarcerated sexual aggressors. At the present state of the knowledge there is limited information on the sexual functioning profile of individuals reporting some form of sexual violence but who were not documented/apprehended by the judicial system.
AIM:
The aim of this preliminary study was to characterize a sample of community sexual aggressors (college students) according to their sexual functioning. Results were expected to add information about the relationship between sexual functioning and sexual violence, and to impact strategies aimed at preventing sexual aggression on college campus.
METHODS:
One hundred sixty-one male college students participated in a cross-sectional study. Students were recruited at a Portuguese university using nonrandom methods. Among these students, 35 reported sexual aggression against women. The measures were completed individually and anonymously.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Participants completed a modified version of the International Index of Erectile Function, the Sexual Inhibition and Sexual Excitation Scales, the Sexual Self-Consciousness Scale, the Questionnaire of Cognitive Schema Activation in Sexual Context, and the Sexual-Esteem Scale.
RESULTS:
Results indicated that students reporting sexual aggression against women presented significantly more erectile and orgasmic difficulties, and more sexual inhibition due to the threat of performance failure than the control peers. Additionally, students reporting sexual aggression presented more sexual embarrassment, and more schemas of undesirability and incompetence.
CONCLUSIONS:
Results pointed toward a possible relationship between sexual violence as reported by college students and sexual performance anxiety. These findings are expected to impact conceptual models on sexual aggression perpetrated by nonforensic individuals.
2013 International Society for Sexual Medicine.
KEYWORDS:
College Students; Rapists; Sexual Aggression; Sexual Functioning

WhyNot
03-28-2016, 01:16 PM
Most women's bodies seem to feel nothing but pain during acts of rape, according to reports by the victims. Many women suffer significant vaginal tearing and physical damage.
See, anytime you start using words like "most," I'm going to start asking for numbers.

Some women experience tearing and physical trauma. Some don't. The very real problem with assuming "most" do (without evidence, numbers) is that leads us back down the path of doubting women whose rape exams reveal no damage.

Remember, most rape isn't sudden, violent rape by a stranger - only 10% of rapes fit that model. Most rape is done by someone the victim knows and trusts, and quite often it escalates, with enough time for her body to respond by producing vaginal lubrication.

It doesn't take long for my body to provide lubrication, whether I'm actually wanting sex or not. Unless someone performed a classic jump out of the bushes stranger rape, chances are good that I'm not going to tear. I didn't tear any of the multiple times I was raped (by someone I knew.) Still rape.

Wesley Clark
03-28-2016, 07:30 PM
What? I don't understand your logic here. Maybe I'm just tired..

The hypothesis is basically that if a man is a prolific rapist who impregnates many women, then the women who get pregnant will have kids who are more likely to become rapists who procreate more than non-rapists, which means that the women who are more likely to get pregnant from rape (have an orgasm) have a survival advantage and therefore that trait persists in the species if rapists have more children than men who do not rape.

There are several flaws with this theory.

For one, a child of rape will have no paternal investment, and questionable maternal investment. That could counterbalance whatever benefits there are to this strategy.

Ducks are prolific rapists, but female ducks have evolved defenses against rape, not evolved to get impregnated by rape. So in at least one other species, rapist behavior by men results in the evolution of anti-rape physiology by females, not the evolution of physiology likely to increase fertilization. But I'm sure there are other species that have done the opposite.

There, in theory, should be a division between rapists. A male rapist who is weak and ineffective with 1-2 victims is not the same as one who is strong and has 100+ victims. Getting pregnant by the first wouldn't give much advantage, in theory the second could give advantages. But how are women supposed to know the difference?

A male rapist who has enough victims runs the risk of being killed by the friends and families of his victims. So this is not necessarily a good strategy for him.

The theory that orgasm increases fertilization is not clear cut, there is evidence for and against it.

handsomeharry
03-28-2016, 08:00 PM
Actually, I always hear is that the exact opposite is the case, but I can't find any cite to support either the one nor the other.

I read the same thing in my sociology text in late 80s.

purplehearingaid
03-28-2016, 08:16 PM
http://www.examiner.com/article/why-do-rapists-rape

Rape is not about sex , it's having control and power over the victim .

WhyNot
03-28-2016, 08:27 PM
http://www.examiner.com/article/why-do-rapists-rape

Rape is not about sex , it's having control and power over the victim .

I'll take, "Things people say to keep sex sacred" for $200, Alex.

Some rape is about power. Some rape is about a horny person who doesn't give a shit if the other person wants to have sex or not. And some rape is about people who are raised to think that only repeated screams of "NO!" and attempts to claw one's eyes out really means no, and that any more muted response means their victim "wanted it" and the sex was consensual.

That article is clearly about the first, as it's about a serial rapist who raped strangers. For Reginald Williams and his ilk, rape is about control and power. That's not the only, or even the most common, kind of rapist.

Ambivalid
03-28-2016, 08:32 PM
I'll take, "Things people say to keep sex sacred" for $200, Alex.

Some rape is about power. Some rape is about a horny person who doesn't give a shit if the other person wants to have sex or not. And some rape is about people who are raised to think that only repeated screams of "NO!" and attempts to claw one's eyes out really means no, and that any more muted response means their victim "wanted it" and the sex was consensual.

That article is clearly about the first, as it's about a serial rapist who raped strangers. For Reginald Williams and his ilk, rape is about control and power. That's not the only, or even the most common, kind of rapist.

Thank you for saying this.

WhyNot
03-28-2016, 08:45 PM
Thank you for saying this.

You're welcome. It's one bit of repeated "wisdom" that really boils my noodle. I suppose it may provide some comfort to a certain subset of victims who don't want to call what happened to them "sex." But at the same time, it provides one more excuse for every rapist out there who really wanted to have sex and wouldn't take no for an answer. If their actions were about getting sex, but rape isn't about sex, then what they did couldn't have been rape, right? Wrong.

spamforbrains
03-28-2016, 08:51 PM
Some rape is about power. Some rape is about a horny person who doesn't give a shit if the other person wants to have sex or not. And some rape is about people who are raised to think that only repeated screams of "NO!" and attempts to claw one's eyes out really means no, and that any more muted response means their victim "wanted it" and the sex was consensual.

That article is clearly about the first, as it's about a serial rapist who raped strangers. For Reginald Williams and his ilk, rape is about control and power. That's not the only, or even the most common, kind of rapist.


I agree with the first part. But how do you know that serial rapists of strangers are about power? I associate the "power" aspect with the men who rape women they know in order to "punish" them for a perceived transgression, which is, I believe, one of the most common types of rape.
I have heard that serial rapists often have sexual problems and they can only get aroused during violent acts, thus their rapes may be solely about sex.

spamforbrains
03-28-2016, 08:54 PM
The hypothesis is basically that if a man is a prolific rapist who impregnates many women, then the women who get pregnant will have kids who are more likely to become rapists who procreate more than non-rapists, which means that the women who are more likely to get pregnant from rape (have an orgasm) have a survival advantage and therefore that trait persists in the species if rapists have more children than men who do not rape.

there's a big problem with your theory-women having or not having an orgasm has nothing to do with whether she gets pregnant or not.

WhyNot
03-28-2016, 09:35 PM
I agree with the first part. But how do you know that serial rapists of strangers are about power? I associate the "power" aspect with the men who rape women they know in order to "punish" them for a perceived transgression, which is, I believe, one of the most common types of rape.
I have heard that serial rapists often have sexual problems and they can only get aroused during violent acts, thus their rapes may be solely about sex.

Because the linked article is about interviews with a serial rapist, and how his motives were largely control and power. He even wrote a book about it. (http://www.amazon.com/Until-Get-Caught-Serial-Baltimore/dp/0976258951) Similar motivations are often admitted to by serial rapists and stranger rapists, but I think it's a huge mistake to extrapolate that to all, or even most, rapists, even if it makes us feel better.

But mostly because quite a bit of actual research reveals that rape isn't about power, it's about sex, (Hamilton and Yee, 1990; Rapaport & Burkhart, 1984; Ellis, 1989; Koss & Leonard, 1984; Mosher & Anderson, 1986) and because the claim that rape is about power, not sex, was a theory put forth without evidence by feminists in the 1970s who had a vested interest in blaming everything wrong with society on the power imbalance between men and women, and has limited support in actual research. It's popular because it's often repeated by authorities, not because it's been proven correct.

And, last but not least, personal experience and listening to the experiences of both rapists and rape victims for many years. My rapist didn't desire power over me; he wanted sex, and didn't care or notice that I didn't. That's a very common theme in rape stories, especially the kind of acquaintance or partner rape that isn't often reported to authorities or investigated by scientists.

WhyNot
03-28-2016, 09:40 PM
there's a big problem with your theory-women having or not having an orgasm has nothing to do with whether she gets pregnant or not.

There are several proposed theories by which simultaneous orgasm may lead to greater pregnancy rates through greater retention of sperm. One is the "in-suck" phenomenon, where the rhythmic contractions of the pelvic floor cause the cervix to open a bit and dip down and create suction to slurp the sperm past the os. Another is reduced acidity in the cervical mucus created by the vaginal lubrication, allowing greater sperm survival. I've even read one theory that the post-coital exhaustion after a good orgasm keeps women lying down longer, allowing the sperm a longer time to pass through the vagina and os into the uterus before she stands and the semen drips out.

Studies have been mixed as to whether any of these have an actual impact on fertilization rates.

spamforbrains
03-28-2016, 09:41 PM
And, last but not least, personal experience and listening to the experiences of both rapists and rape victims for many years. My rapist didn't desire power over me; he wanted sex, and didn't care or notice that I didn't. That's a very common theme in rape stories, especially the kind of acquaintance or partner rape that isn't often reported to authorities or investigated by scientists.

what is your impression of the motivations of the men who drug women and then rape them? This is one of the most puzzling acts I have ever heard of. It reminds me of necrophilia.

WhyNot
03-28-2016, 10:02 PM
what is your impression of the motivations of the men who drug women and then rape them? This is one of the most puzzling acts I have ever heard of. It reminds me of necrophilia.

So super creepy. I think it varies, of course. That's pretty much my whole theme here. You can't take what one person does and say it applies to everyone.

There was only one time that I, personally, was drugged by a stranger in a nightclub who clearly intended to bring me home to have sex. My impression was that he was looking for sex, and thought that was the best way to make it happen. He'd tried talking to me and flirting with me for a couple of hours before that, with limited results. I didn't shoot him down entirely, but neither had I decided that I was going home with him. Then I think he got impatient, and he put ketamine* in my drink.

So....you tell me? Was that about wanting power over me, or was that about a means to get sex? I really don't know. It seems, though, that if it was a power thing, he wouldn't have wasted the two or three hours trying to get me to agree to sex before he drugged me.

I do know I'm grateful to my friends for figuring out what was happening and getting me safely away from him.

We also know that the most popular "date rape drug" is alcohol. That's it. Not roofies or ketamine or benzos, just booze. Because booze lowers inhibitions and makes people more likely to say yes to sex, or at least to say no with less force. That doesn't scream "power" to me, that seems like people who want sex, and lack the ethics or skills to get it from a sober person.

*I'd never taken ketamine, so I didn't know what was wrong, but my description of the visual hallucinations led my friend, who has done every recreational drug on the planet, to identify it as ketamine. So freaky. Might have been fun if I'd known about it and wanted it, but unaware and unwanted, it was really really horrible and disorienting.

md2000
03-28-2016, 11:43 PM
The process of seduction or persuasion can be very confusing to many males, especially those type with limited empathy for others. (i.e., most men). Combine this with an attitude of self-entitlement, or arrogance, or whatever you want to call disregard for others' feelings and rights, and they will see force or drugs as a convenient way to bypass the tedious and longer term task of wooing.

Plus - and this in no way justifies rape - there is a social game that women play with men. Society has told them not to be "easy", therefore they make the man work for what he wants and then may or may not give it to him. For example, in my distant single past, I recall occasions where I was engaged in the usual foreplay wrestling match on the couch - put the hand there, they move it away, kiss some more, try again. On two separate occasions, two different women, (well into their 20's) each excused herself, went to the washroom, and when they returned to the couch to resume the play they had apparently removed their bra.

Getting to "yes" (or "no") is a game that both sides play. Often the male has the advantage of size and strength; some poor sports will tire of the game and break the rules. There may be some question where the foul line is, but like the old saying about porn - "I can't define for you exactly where the line is crossed, but I know it when I see it."

I will hypothesize that rape, even date rape and drug/drunk rape, is to some extent about power. "I wanted this to enjoy myself, you were denying it to me, but see, I can do what I want and you can't stop me." It's the same attitude as the bully in the schoolyard in grade school, except instead of stealing your candy bar, sex is involved.

spamforbrains
03-29-2016, 04:49 PM
there is a social game that women play with men. Society has told them not to be "easy", therefore they make the man work for what he wants and then may or may not give it to him. For example, in my distant single past, I recall occasions where I was engaged in the usual foreplay wrestling match on the couch - put the hand there, they move it away, kiss some more, try again. On two separate occasions, two different women, (well into their 20's) each excused herself, went to the washroom, and when they returned to the couch to resume the play they had apparently removed their bra.

why don't you just talk beforehand? I've never been involved in a foreplay "wrestling" match, and if some man put his hand somewhere and I moved it off I'd expect him to stop and go home, not persist, and if he persisted I'd throw him out.
I see the real problem seems to be a serious lack of communication.
As to the bathroom thing, I suspect applying some kind of birth control may have been involved.

Wesley Clark
03-29-2016, 06:35 PM
Just to throw more fuel on the fire, the conception rate from rape is higher than from voluntary sex.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201208/why-are-rape-victims-more-not-less-likely-become-pregnant

Twenty-six of the women who had been raped became pregnant—a pregnancy rate of 6.42%, which increased to 8% when adjusted for contraceptive use....Over the entire cycle, however, a woman’s chances getting pregnant from one act of intercourse was only 3.1%. This finding is consistent with other studies of human fertility.

In short, women are at least twice as likely to conceive as a result of rape than by consensual sex.

However this could be due to rapists unconsciously picking more fertile targets.

spamforbrains
03-29-2016, 06:47 PM
However this could be due to rapists unconsciously picking more fertile targets.

or perhaps due to the women not having been able to use birth control beforehand.

Do you actually think men can tell when women are fertile? Most women can't tell when they are fertile. An interesting question.

Wesley Clark
03-29-2016, 06:52 PM
or perhaps due to the women not having been able to use birth control beforehand.

Do you actually think men can tell when women are fertile? Most women can't tell when they are fertile. An interesting question.

You can tell who has a compatible immune system (which will result in a healthier baby) by smelling someone's dirty undershirt. I'm sure there are tons of unconscious signals that are being sent and picked up that we have no conscious awareness of.

WhyNot
03-29-2016, 07:17 PM
or perhaps due to the women not having been able to use birth control beforehand.

They controlled for contraception use.

Do you actually think men can tell when women are fertile? Most women can't tell when they are fertile. An interesting question.
Yes, they can. They don't know what they're looking for, but they can. Our voices get higher in pitch, our faces redden, our clothing and makeup selection changes (usually to more reds and pinks, which men find more attractive) and even our body odor changes to be more appealing. Men respond to this unconsciously and rate fertile women more attractive than those same women during infertile times, even outside the issue of rape selection.

Nelson Pike
03-29-2016, 08:35 PM
If there ever was an OP which should have been immediately censored this is it.

Cecil adams, Ed Zotti, and all SDMB moderators are total, repeat, total assholes for letting it go.

I suggest you total assholes look yourselves in the face once in a while, so as to, maybe, improve your performances as moral human beings, as opposed to unthinking moral animals.

Your move, animals.

faithfool
03-29-2016, 08:39 PM
What??

WhyNot
03-29-2016, 08:48 PM
Reported.

Colibri
03-29-2016, 08:52 PM
If there ever was an OP which should have been immediately censored this is it.

Cecil adams, Ed Zotti, and all SDMB moderators are total, repeat, total assholes for letting it go.

I suggest you total assholes look yourselves in the face once in a while, so as to, maybe, improve your performances as moral human beings, as opposed to unthinking moral animals.

Your move, animals.

Moderator Warning

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If you wish to dispute moderation of this board, you may discuss it civilly in ATMB.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

Nelson Pike
03-29-2016, 08:58 PM
Moderator Warning

This is an official warning for insults, and for discussing moderation outside of ATMB.

If you wish to dispute moderation of this board, you may discuss it civilly in ATMB.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator
See PM.

spamforbrains
03-29-2016, 09:41 PM
We need to talk about these things. Ignorance is the root of all evil. Most people haven't the slightest idea why they do the things they do and if they can be informed why perhaps they can make better choices or at least be not quite as upset about what happened or their response to what happened.

md2000
03-29-2016, 10:46 PM
why don't you just talk beforehand? I've never been involved in a foreplay "wrestling" match, and if some man put his hand somewhere and I moved it off I'd expect him to stop and go home, not persist, and if he persisted I'd throw him out.
I see the real problem seems to be a serious lack of communication.
As to the bathroom thing, I suspect applying some kind of birth control may have been involved.

Ah, if only interpersonal communication and getting to the point were that simple. At least back in the 1980's, it was all about appearing to be worn down so she didn't appear to be "easy". Nobody started with "please sign this affirmative consent form". And in neither case was birth control involved.


As for a higher rate of conception with rape, did they control for the fact that a pregnancy with visible consequences is more likely to reported, or admitted to, that one that did not? I would think women who were raped and had a child as a result were more likely to admit to the rape to a random surveyor's telephone call.

spamforbrains
03-30-2016, 10:12 AM
Ah, if only interpersonal communication and getting to the point were that simple. At least back in the 1980's, it was all about appearing to be worn down so she didn't appear to be "easy". Nobody started with "please sign this affirmative consent form".

Dude, I was dating in the 1980s and it WAS that easy. Before engaging in foreplay you had a discussion about how far you were willing to go. If you wanted to have actual sex, you had a discussion about birth control and STDs, agreed, and then went for it.

there is a social game that women play with men. Society has told them not to be "easy", therefore they make the man work for what he wants and then may or may not give it to him. For example, in my distant single past, I recall occasions where I was engaged in the usual foreplay wrestling match on the couch - put the hand there, they move it away, kiss some more, try again.

What you are describing here is date rape. She says NO, you assume she's playing a game and actually means YES. No, she meant NO. You put your hand somewhere, she moves it off-that means NO, you STOP.

It is true that women are more conflicted about sex than men which is why many men assume they are playing games.

Man: Horny. If he has sex, he has a 100% chance of being satisfied. There is a remote possibility she'll get pregnant, but that's really her problem. He's not conflicted at all.

Woman: Horny. If she has sex, there's a really good chance she won't be satisfied because at least 2/3s of men are really bad/selfish in the sack. Regardless of how many precautions are taken, she could get pregnant, which will ruin her life. She has a much higher chance of catching an STD from a man than a man does of catching one from her, and the consequences of an STD in a women can be much more severe than in a man. And, something that men never think about, is if she sleeps with a man, her odds of being murdered or raped go up exponentially, because most violent attacks on women are committed by men they've had sex with.

So her body wants to but her mind doesn't. And if she says NO in any way at any point you have to respect that. Trying to "wear her down" is rape behavior.

typoink
03-31-2016, 08:27 PM
What you are describing here is date rape. She says NO, you assume she's playing a game and actually means YES. No, she meant NO. You put your hand somewhere, she moves it off-that means NO, you STOP.

This is good, important information to be conveyed, but it's also incomplete. I had a partner in college that was similar. She wanted sex, quite badly, but couldn't bring herself to ask for it or verbally consent. She had to be pressured and "forced," but would make herself very available, didn't put up much "fight," and would initiate things. It was always uncomfortable to me, and ultimately part of why our relationship fizzled out.

It left me with a skewed view of how people discussed sex and made me very uncomfortable approaching or initiating things with new partners for quite a while.

Not to say this is the norm, but just saying I've had an experience very similar to md2000 that was definitely not rape or non-consensual.

That experience is part of why I take consent, and education about consent, very seriously as an "adult." It's important for people to know that A) it's very important to gain consent from a partner, and B) it's very important to give consent clearly if you DO consent.

Blake
05-01-2016, 06:27 AM
t A) it's very important to gain consent from a partner, and B) it's very important to give consent clearly if you DO consent.

And C) it's very important to deny consent clearly if you DO NOT consent.

Moving a hand away does not mean "NO". It does not mean "I expect you to go home". I have to wonder how limited someone's life experience would have to be to come to believe that.

Moving a hand away does mean, "Not now". Whether that ever becomes "Yes, now" is dependent on to many factors to elaborate on. But both women and men will move a hand away but continue with kissing, stroking hugging and other intimate interaction. For the vast majority of people, that's not saying no. It's saying "Wait".

If you mean no, say no, and say it clearly an unambiguously. Communication is a two way street. If you want a discussion about how far you are willing to go, then start the discussion by stating that, clearly. If you want someone to stop and go home, then say that, clearly. At the very least get up and move away.

The idea that moving someone hand away and then continuing other intimate activities is a clear expression of "No, stop and go home" is just weird and not applicable to the real world.