Conjecture: Captain America movie will underperform outside North America

[Lobot]

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I suspect the Captain America movie will not do particularly well outside of North America. The idea of a WWII soldier dressed in combat gear modeled after the Stars and Stripes may work for U.S. audiences, but it looks like jingoistic propaganda to outsiders, IMHO.

It may work in Australia, but in Europe it will bomb. The photos look ridiculous.

Am I wrong? How will this affect an Avengers movie?

[Chronos]

How do DC/Marvel-style comic books in general, and Captain America comic books in particular, fare outside of America? And how does Superman do, with his dedication to "truth, justice, and the American way"?

[Capitaine Zombie]

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I suspect the Captain America movie will not do particularly well outside of North America. The idea of a WWII soldier dressed in combat gear modeled after the Stars and Stripes may work for U.S. audiences, but it looks like jingoistic propaganda to outsiders, IMHO.

It may work in Australia, but in Europe it will bomb. The photos look ridiculous.

Am I wrong? How will this affect an Avengers movie?

Funny I think I heard all the arguments already in this thread:
http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/104419-sdcc-director-joe-johnson-on-captain-america

If it's Ultimate Cap, I wont go see it but it could sell (Independence Day or the Jerry Bruckenheimer movies didnt bomb in Europe, even though it's choke full of Americana). If it's traditional Cap, I'd go see it but I'm not sure the same would be true of US audiences.
I just hope they dont restrict themselves to WW2. It's a necessary prologue but unless they wrote an extremely elaborate trilogy which absolutely requires that, it wouldnt be a good idea. There's a reason why adpatations of Super Heroes dont use stories from the forties, fifties. Those stories tend to be either ludicrous or plain boring (Batman may be an exception to this).

[Lobot]

Fair point regarding Superman, but I think there are two differences there: 1) he's so iconic that he transcends the patriotism and 2) he's an outsider himself and so easier for foreign markets to relate to.

I don't know about comic sales.

[Jonathan Chance]

Funny I think I heard all the arguments already in this thread:
http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/104419-sdcc-director-joe-johnson-on-captain-america

If it's Ultimate Cap, I wont go see it but it could sell (Independence Day or the Jerry Bruckenheimer movies didnt bomb in Europe, even though it's choke full of Americana). If it's traditional Cap, I'd go see it but I'm not sure the same would be true of US audiences.
I just hope they dont restrict themselves to WW2. It's a necessary prologue but unless they wrote an extremely elaborate trilogy which absolutely requires that, it wouldnt be a good idea. There's a reason why adpatations of Super Heroes dont use stories from the forties, fifties. Those stories tend to be either ludicrous or plain boring (Batman may be an exception to this).

The Captain America movie will be all WWII until he gets frozen at the end. He'll be awakened in the modern era for the Avengers movie that follows.

[Lobot]

Funny I think I heard all the arguments already in this thread:
http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/104419-sdcc-director-joe-johnson-on-captain-america

Joe Johnston's quote is very interesting, as is the reaction of a segment of the fanboy population. "OH NO! But the Cap IS America! Jingoism defines the character!!!"

[Grumman]

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I suspect the Captain America movie will not do particularly well outside of North America. The idea of a WWII soldier dressed in combat gear modeled after the Stars and Stripes may work for U.S. audiences, but it looks like jingoistic propaganda to outsiders, IMHO.
As I said in the last thread, the key is to recognise there's a difference between being pro kicking-Hitler's-ass-America and being pro Iraq-and-Guantanamo-America. Unfortunately they've apparently decided to replace kicking-Hitler's-ass-America with kicking-Hydra's-ass-America, which ruins the whole thing.

[Lobot]

As I said in the last thread, the key is to recognise there's a difference between being pro kicking-Hitler's-ass-America and being pro Iraq-and-Guantanamo-America. Unfortunately they've apparently decided to replace kicking-Hitler's-ass-America with kicking-Hydra's-ass-America, which ruins the whole thing.

The trouble is that after GWB's eight years, American patriotism leaves a bad taste no matter the context. Also, "pro kicking-Hitler's-ass-America" has connotations of "We saved your ass in World War II!" which also doesn't go down too well with Brits.

[Llama Llogophile]

They could just re-title it for release in different countries, and change the costume accordingly.

Captain Montenegro!

Captain Ivory Coast!

Captain Latin America! (that would be economical because it could work in an entire region)

[Larry Mudd]

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I suspect the Captain America movie will not do particularly well outside of North America.I wouldn't bet on Captain America doing very well in Canada or Mexico.

You gonna line up for the Captain Canuck (http://www.captaincanuck.com/) movie?

I think for most people outside of the U.S., Captain America is the only Marvel hero that somehow manages to be more ridiculous than Thor.

[Kyla]

I don't know, my one nerd friend who's really really into Captain America is British. She's very upset about the removal of the littles wing from the helmet in the movie version.

[Kamino Neko]

Uh...yeah.

See, Cap's not jingoism.

Cap is a symbol of all the good things y'all are supposed to stand for.

And as much as some of your government choices have frustrated people over the last decade or so, most of the world where American comics are marketed are still fairly friendly to you.

So, we like you, and Cap represents what we like about you. So we like Cap, in general.

[Sunspace]

I wouldn't bet on Captain America doing very well in Canada or Mexico.

You gonna line up for the Captain Canuck (http://www.captaincanuck.com/) movie?I would, eh?

Now, Canada is considered part of the US for movie distribution puropses, the only foreign country to be so considered. So I expect Captain America will get some distribution here. But if it's over-the-top US patriotic, and has no other redeeming features (such as connecting to the hope for a better world that informs the substructure of US culture, far beneath local politics), it will flop here.

[Lobot]

I wouldn't bet on Captain America doing very well in Canada or Mexico.

You gonna line up for the Captain Canuck (http://www.captaincanuck.com/) movie?

I think for most people outside of the U.S., Captain America is the only Marvel hero that somehow manages to be more ridiculous than Thor.

The same thought crossed my mind, but I was erring on the side of caution.

Being Australian, I think Australia is in many way politically and culturally similar to the U.S. insofar as we'll respond well to the same sort of movies. But there are important differences, and the hand-on-heart-while-the-flag-flies-high thing featured in U.S. media usually elicits eye-rolling from Australian audiences. I can only imagine it would be even worse in Europe.

He's a guy called "Captain America" and is almost literally draped in the flag. I can't think of anything with more limited international appeal.

[Justin Credible]

You gonna line up for the Captain Canuck (http://www.captaincanuck.com/) movie?

If he teamed up with Wolverine I'd probably see it.

[Capitaine Zombie]

As I said in the last thread, the key is to recognise there's a difference between being pro kicking-Hitler's-ass-America and being pro Iraq-and-Guantanamo-America. Unfortunately they've apparently decided to replace kicking-Hitler's-ass-America with kicking-Hydra's-ass-America, which ruins the whole thing.

There was another thread? I searched, as the OP sounded familiar, but didnt find it.

[Larry Mudd]

If he teamed up with Wolverine I'd probably see it.Aw, I'd go see it if Rush Limbaugh teamed up with Wolverine.

And Lobot is Australian.... updating my rolodex... :o

[Grumman]

There was another thread? I searched, as the OP sounded familiar, but didnt find it.
It appears I was mainly thinking of one of the Thor threads (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13261279&postcount=18), but also the Captain America origin thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13238993&postcount=2), both from last month.

[Jophiel]

You gonna line up for the Captain Canuck (http://www.captaincanuck.com/) movie?
I saw Strange Brew. What else do they want from me?

[Simplicio]

Eh, I suspect the movie will suck, so that will probably hurt its sales. But if it survives that, I doubt the jingoism will be a big factor. Non-American fans of action movies are probably pretty immune to getting a dose of "American, fuck-yea" in their films by now.

Plus, the concept is so ridiculous that even if the director tries to play it completely straight, it will still come off as satire. So people that really don't like the States will probably enjoy it at that level, anyways.

[Grumman]

Plus, the concept is so ridiculous that even if the director tries to play it completely straight, it will still come off as satire.
Which part are you incapable of taking seriously, the WWII super-science or the fact that when the US managed to create a supersoldier they would use him as a combined ass-kicker and propaganda tool? They should have given him a better uniform and should have left the Nazis in, but there's nothing about the core concept that bothers me.

[WotNot]

Uh...yeah.

See, Cap's not jingoism.

Cap is a symbol of all the good things y'all are supposed to stand for.

And as much as some of your government choices have frustrated people over the last decade or so, most of the world where American comics are marketed are still fairly friendly to you.

So, we like you, and Cap represents what we like about you. So we like Cap, in general.
I would like to associate myself with the ideas expressed in this post.

I'm actually much more concerned about Marvel's apparent policy of white-washing the Nazis out of WWII. I don't understand it, and, quite honestly, I find it a little disturbing.

[Nava]

How do DC/Marvel-style comic books in general, and Captain America comic books in particular, fare outside of America? And how does Superman do, with his dedication to "truth, justice, and the American way"?

Caps does a lot worse outside the US than in. I was present one time when The Man happened to be visiting the Salón del Cómic in Barcelona and this came up, and someone basically asked him "are you serious?" and showed him an issue where the jingoism was so thick you could have dunked bread in it. He went "oh :smack:" Not every issue is like that, but the changes and whatnots are a reflection of political realities in the US as seen by the writer - often, that's completely alien to readers elsewhere, whereas the X-bunch or Spidey appeal to everybody (the X-bunch have a heavy political background but it's a universal one).

It's iconic enough to be one of the characters parodied in Superlópez (I give you one chance to guess who's the main parody), but he just can't be as popular as other characters. It isn't even the fact that he's "captain America", it's... well, he's just too local. Captain Britain is draped in the Union Jack, but he's not likely to start giving speeches about the Magna Carta and he's not a creation of the UK government.

[footballisplayedwithyourfeet]

I think the most important reson why it could bomb is that Captain America isn't all that well known in other countries (at least here in the Netherlands and dare I say most of Europe). The Super hero (or just hero) movies that do well and are big happenings are the Batman, Spiderman, Superman, X-men, Hulk type movies. Probably because a large part of the younger population know these from saturday morning animated series on TV(or the Lois and Clark/Smallville thing). Very few people actually read the comics (I have never read a comic about the hero's mentioned above).

That being said, they are still being marketed as big budget action flicks and will do well enough, just not as good as the famous super heroes I menntioned. People went to see Daredevil, Elektra, The Fantastic four and Probably the Green Hornet as well, but in less greater numbers because no one had heard of these characters before the movie.

[Double Foolscap]

The concept art was enough to intrigue this Brit. A superhero wearing leather and what looks like chainmail rather than a cape and lycra? Yes please!

It scratches the fantasy realism (realistic fantasy?) itch I've got.

[Omniscient]

Uh...yeah.

See, Cap's not jingoism.

Cap is a symbol of all the good things y'all are supposed to stand for.

And as much as some of your government choices have frustrated people over the last decade or so, most of the world where American comics are marketed are still fairly friendly to you.

So, we like you, and Cap represents what we like about you. So we like Cap, in general.

I know nothing about the mythology of the character or the comics. Ultimate Cap and Classic Cap mean nothing to me. That said, if I were the writer of the film and making money outside the U.S. were a high priority then this would be the angle I'd be aiming at. Even if it meant crapping on the fanboys to a degree. If Captain America is the crusader of the much talked about "American ideal" then I think he could universal. So long as the character doesn't seem to imply that he and by extension America have the market cornered on liberty and justice and aren't seen as bailing out Europe it could work. If the character is written in a way that shows him to be the hero of the little guy, a paragon of freedom and liberty and the ouster of tyranny and suffering anywhere and the jingoistic message is "America is on your side" then that can work. If Captain America spends a chunk of time hating the corporations, politicians and more despicable elements of the American way and saving the country from itself and delivering it to the "real America" then it'll at least be self-aware enough to not be insulting to the rest of the world.

It's a tall order, and might completely miss the point of the comic, but that's probably the only hope of it working outside the States.

[bucketybuck]

I am outside America!!!

And wild horses couldnt drag me to see this film. I know nothing about the backstory, all I know is the name "Captain America" :rolleyes:, and that he is a soldier carrying a shield :rolleyes:, that is also an American flag :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.

I make a point of not using the :rolleyes: smilie, which tells you just how :rolleyes: Captain America makes me.

[Alessan]

I think the most important reson why it could bomb is that Captain America isn't all that well known in other countries (at least here in the Netherlands and dare I say most of Europe). The Super hero (or just hero) movies that do well and are big happenings are the Batman, Spiderman, Superman, X-men, Hulk type movies. Probably because a large part of the younger population know these from saturday morning animated series on TV(or the Lois and Clark/Smallville thing). Very few people actually read the comics (I have never read a comic about the hero's mentioned above).

That being said, they are still being marketed as big budget action flicks and will do well enough, just not as good as the famous super heroes I menntioned. People went to see Daredevil, Elektra, The Fantastic four and Probably the Green Hornet as well, but in less greater numbers because no one had heard of these characters before the movie.

Very few people outside the U.S. had heard of Iron Man, and it ended up one of the most successful superhero films ever. You don't need familiarity - you need good action, a charismatic star and a kick-ass trailer.

[amanset]

I'm wondering how many people that complain about the jingoism have actually read the book? Not only have we had a completely different guy, with a bit of a dodgy past as a brainwashed assassin for the Soviet Union, actually as Captain America, but before then Steve Rogers was sometimes portrayed as being a bit too stuck in his ways. The ending of Civil War was based around that very idea, with Cap realising that not only he but the rest of the heroes had lost the support of the people.

The only really remotely jingoist stories for several years now have been one-shot or out of continuity stories involving troops. They generally sell rather poorly everywhere. Not that Captain America sells particularly well anyway (then again, Iron Man sells less and that was a very successful film), but using the most recently available sales figures:

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2010/12/28/marvel-nonth-to-month-sales-november-2010/

Captain America #612 sold 47,343, Captain America: Man Out of Time sold 23,566 (and that's part one of a five-part mini series, sales are just going to go down and down) and Captain America: Forever Allies (apparently a reunion of characters from the WW2 days) sold a massive 9,905.

So in short, you can't tell much from sales. Captain America certainly hasn't been jingoistic in current continuity for several years. And I say that as a non-American. The question is whether the tone of the film will be taken from modern stories or it'll hark back to silver or golden ages versions of the character. With the move away from bashing Germans to bashing Hydra the jury is out on that one.

[amanset]

Very few people outside the U.S. had heard of Iron Man, and it ended up one of the most successful superhero films ever. You don't need familiarity - you need good action, a charismatic star and a kick-ass trailer.

Indeed. Amongst my peer group I was pretty much the only one that had heard of Iron Man before the first trailer hit. And to think they used to mock me for reading comics. HOW COOL WAS I THEN? ;)

[Capitaine Zombie]

I know nothing about the mythology of the character or the comics. Ultimate Cap and Classic Cap mean nothing to me. That said, if I were the writer of the film and making money outside the U.S. were a high priority then this would be the angle I'd be aiming at. Even if it meant crapping on the fanboys to a degree. If Captain America is the crusader of the much talked about "American ideal" then I think he could universal. So long as the character doesn't seem to imply that he and by extension America have the market cornered on liberty and justice and aren't seen as bailing out Europe it could work. If the character is written in a way that shows him to be the hero of the little guy, a paragon of freedom and liberty and the ouster of tyranny and suffering anywhere and the jingoistic message is "America is on your side" then that can work. If Captain America spends a chunk of time hating the corporations, politicians and more despicable elements of the American way and saving the country from itself and delivering it to the "real America" then it'll at least be self-aware enough to not be insulting to the rest of the world.

It's a tall order, and might completely miss the point of the comic, but that's probably the only hope of it working outside the States.


But that's exactly Traditional Captain America. If they're pissing off fans doing Cap that way, those fans have never learned to read then (wouldnt be that surprising if they're the uber jingo types). Cap does the right thing, he does the humane thing. Even if it's the most difficult way. He's the Pure Warrior, with a greater emphasis on pure than warrior. He's the King Arthur of America combined with Jesus like aspects.

BTW, contrary to what's been said here, Captain America is among the most well-recognized characters Marvel has. Not the most popular as, until recently, his sales were not that good, but show him to a bunch of people, whether they be US or not, and most will be able to tell his name, if they cant really tell his story.

The Ultimate version is way more tongue-in-cheek. Even though a lot of the fans of Ultimate Cap dont get the joke, and take his act at face value. It's clear Millar intended to mock American jingoism with Cap. It ended up going miles over the heads of comic fans actually into jingoism. Problem is Ultimate Cap has nothing endearing going for him, which is precisely one of the appeals of Trad Cap (insert Cap N Trade joke).

[astorian]

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I suspect the Captain America movie will not do particularly well outside of North America. The idea of a WWII soldier dressed in combat gear modeled after the Stars and Stripes may work for U.S. audiences, but it looks like jingoistic propaganda to outsiders, IMHO.

It may work in Australia, but in Europe it will bomb. The photos look ridiculous.

Am I wrong? How will this affect an Avengers movie?



I have no idea whether the movie itself will be any good, but the moviemakers obviously share your fear. They've been swearing up and down that there's NOTHING particularly patriotic or uniquely American about Captain America!

[Capitaine Zombie]

there's NOTHING particularly (...) or uniquely American about Captain America!

There should be a Hall of Fame of stupid quotes.

[MrDibble]

Now, everybody knows I'm no fan of American jingoism, but I'm definitely going to see this movie, and I particularly like that it's all WWII-Cap with a framing story.

The only thing putting me off is Chris Evans, actually. He was my least-favourite part of the Fantastic Four movies, plus there's something picayune in me that rails against an actor playing more than one super hero (ditto Ryan Reynolds)

[DrFidelius]

I like Captain America, although I have not bought or read a single issue of his comic since he was doing the Nomad act back in the '70s. Therefore, I (and many other potential movie-goers) do not give a rat's ass what is happening in the comics lately. We want to see Cap kicking some ass as the embodiment of American ideals -- the good stuff we like to believe about ourselves, not the petty politicking and global bullying.

If the movie takes the right tack here, with Cap not being "America- Right or Wrong" but being "we must strive every day to live up to our potential" then I think it can do well.

[smiling bandit]

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0001375/mediaindex

It may or may not be specifically killing Nazis, but it appears that his enemies are definitely Nazi-inspired. C'mon - black-leather-wearing cyborg SS commandos? It's like somebody played WOlfenstain and said, yeah, gotta get some of that.

[Reno Nevada]

In that other thread I suggested that a non-American director would give an interesting take on Captain America. I have now refined that thought--Paul Verhoeven would make the greatest Captain America movie possible to make. The "America--Fuck Yeah!" yahoos would stand up and cheer with tears in their eyes, and everyone overseas be laughing their heads off.

I would like to see Cap quote Carl Shurz: "My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

[Capitaine Zombie]

In that other thread I suggested that a non-American director would give an interesting take on Captain America. I have now refined that thought--Paul Verhoeven would make the greatest Captain America movie possible to make. The "America--Fuck Yeah!" yahoos would stand up and cheer with tears in their eyes, and everyone overseas be laughing their heads off.

I would like to see Cap quote Carl Shurz: "My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

Lol you're right about the yahoos not getting the joke, but look at Starship troopers, the jingo jungle still sensed something was wrong, there was a vague aftertaste of shit in that uber patriotic apple pie. It did well in Europe, but failed in the States. Besides, while I love Verhoeven, I would prefer him not to ridicule Cap, he can be a great character. Maybe more a Robocop take (that is the universe is decadent, the hero is flawed, but he still remains the hero) than a Starship Troopers one.
After seeing Casino Royale I would have thought Martin Campbell would have been a good choice, but Green Lantern looks bad. Didnt Joe Johnston direct The Rocketeer (maybe why he got the Cap job if it's supposed to be a WW2 piece with Nazis)?

[Anaamika]

Ha, there's some of us Americans that won't watch a "Captain AMERICA" movie. Myself being one of those.

[smiling bandit]

Lots of sour grapes, methinks.

[Push You Down]

Captain America is supposed to be the ideal American. He's fair, honest, believes in freedom and democracy and knows how to throw a punch (or a shield)...if you don't like that--get over yourself.

[Larry Mudd]

Lots of sour grapes, methinks.Don't confuse people's attitudes or opinions toward CAPTAIN AMERICA with (you know) actual America.

Lots of people who will find Captain America utterly ridiculous and pathetic will also count the United States among their most well-liked places and peoples of the world -- but you must have noticed by now that there is a very strong correlation between being draped in the US flag* and being a vapid moron.


*statement easily amended to include any flag.

[smiling bandit]

Don't confuse people's attitudes or opinions toward CAPTAIN AMERICA with (you know) actual America.

I don't think this can excuse it. Captain America is basically the noblest, most deent superhero this side of Superman, or even moreso. He's the epitome of American self image: all of out good side, none of anyone's bad side. This is why he's called Captain America. If you just assume, oh, this is going to be some self-congratulatory crapofest, then the problem is with the person saying that.

(Although, the director basically seems to have gone way too far out of his way to assure everyone it isn't so, and either he's a self-infulgent lefty or an idiot, and like most in Hollywood, probably both.)

Cap is Cap. Steve Rogers is basically the ultimate hero for Americans: brave, righteous, generous, noble, usually a good judge of character - but not blindly trustful or judgemental. He doesn't have any enemies except people who've deliberately pit themselves on the side of evil. If you are so obsessed with the fact that he's Captain America, then it's solely because you really are judgemental or just plain dislike America or are ashamed, and you're shoving your politics into something which isn't about that.

Granted, that's usual leftiness these days: everything is about politics, and the rest of us can either respond or ignore it (I do both, by turns). I am damn sick of people complaining about movies for political reasons. If it ain't political on its own, don't make it so. When everything has to be viewed through the twisted lens of Bush-hatred, everything will be judtged only on that basis - just as the Nazi cultural directors and the Soviet Commissars did, and for the same reasons. But you won't be looking at the work.

And let's be honest: Would of any these people complain about Captain Britain? Or Canuck?

[Lobot]

Don't confuse people's attitudes or opinions toward CAPTAIN AMERICA with (you know) actual America.

Lots of people who will find Captain America utterly ridiculous and pathetic will also count the United States among their most well-liked places and peoples of the world -- but you must have noticed by now that there is a very strong correlation between being draped in the US flag* and being a vapid moron.


*statement easily amended to include any flag.

Exactly.

Now, some people are making the point that Captain America represents the more noble values of the U.S., not the "America, fuck yeah!" variety. That may well be the case, but the character isn't as iconic as Spider-man outside the U.S. and more on the scale of Iron Man, if that. Outside of the U.S., nobody knows what the character stands for--they can only guess.

If the movie is trying to shy away from any jingoism, you need to get people to see it first to find that out, because most people have no idea about what's in the comics. So all they'll see is a guy called "Captain America" draped in the Red, White and Blue while fighting bad guys in WWII. The surface appearance, even if it's not representative of the actual character, will turn people off immediately.

[Lobot]

smiling bandit, you seem to be saying that the only demographic that won't respond well to Captain America is the political left.

You do realise that Europe is generally left of the U.S., right? What does that suggest?

Your post really only strengthened the point some of us are making.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

As far as I know, Captain America is just plain less known that many other US superheros like the Hulk, Superman, Spider-Man etc. Not that that is necessarily bad for sales, but I do remember that the first time I saw the earlier Captain America movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103923/) I thought it was a spoof superhero movie with all main characters made up for the movie. I mean, a superhero dressed like that?! The fact that the movie was ridiculous didn't help either.

[WotNot]

Now, some people are making the point that Captain America represents the more noble values of the U.S., not the "America, fuck yeah!" variety. That may well be the case, but the character isn't as iconic as Spider-man outside the U.S. and more on the scale of Iron Man, if that. Outside of the U.S., nobody knows what the character stands for--they can only guess.
I'm outside the US, and I've been reading Captain America comics since the late 60s. I know exactly what Steve Rogers stands for.

If the movie is trying to shy away from any jingoism, you need to get people to see it first to find that out, because most people have no idea about what's in the comics.
We have those – we call them "movie reviewers".

So all they'll see is a guy called "Captain America" draped in the Red, White and Blue while fighting bad guys in WWII. The surface appearance, even if it's not representative of the actual character, will turn people off immediately.
As far as I can tell, from this thread and others, it's mostly Americans who think this. Seriously, fellas: its an American movie about an American character. We have seen one or two of those before, you know – we're sort of used to the idea by now. Or did you think they CGI'd British uniforms onto the cast of Saving Private Ryan when they showed it over here?

[Lobot]

I'm outside the US, and I've been reading Captain America comics since the late 60s. I know exactly what Steve Rogers stands for.

How many people like you are there out there in the so-called foreign markets? Not enough to automatically make the film successful in those territories, I'm guessing.


We have those – we call them "movie reviewers".

Most people ignore critics, but in any case, do you really see a Captain America movie being the darling of European critics? Are the French critics--you know, the ones who came up with auteur theory--going to be doing cartwheels over a movie by Joe Johnston that features images like this (http://www.comingsoon.net/imageGallery/Captain_America__The_First_Avenger/Captain_America%3A_The_First_Avenger_9.jpg)?

Admittedly, I'm generalising, but even the more blockbuster-friendly critics tend to turn their noses up at U.S. ultra-patriotism. If someone is undecided about going to see the film, a critic won't be the one to convince them to do so.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Are the French critics--you know, the ones who came up with auteur theory--going to be doing cartwheels over a movie by Joe Johnston that features images like this (http://www.comingsoon.net/imageGallery/Captain_America__The_First_Avenger/Captain_America%3A_The_First_Avenger_9.jpg)?

You know what? That actually looks cool.

[sachertorte]

The only thing putting me off is Chris Evans, actually.
But he's so pretty.

(ditto Ryan Reynolds)
I agree. :D

While I appreciate that there might be some misjudging about what Captain America really is or means, that isn't the point. It isn't as though non-US moviegoers MUST make an informed decision about the movie. If they are turned off by perceived jingoism, that's just as bad for the bottom line as if they are turned off by actual jingoism.

[Spoke]

I think it's kinda funny that people are obsessing over the fact that Cap wears stars and stripes, because, gosh, that's just too gung-ho American.

Meanwhile The Dark Knight was basically a movie-length apologia for the War on Terror, and people ate that right up.

Straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

[B. Serum]

There are three obvious factors which will impact its performance.


The difference in cultural tastes regardless of genre.
The uninformed knee-jerk impression of the character
The quality of the movie.


There's nothing that can be done about #1.

As this thread suggests, #2 will prove to be a huge hurdle to clear. Cap is a character that — like Wonder Woman — exists in the minds of people more as a symbol, rather than a familiarity with the character, his characterization and motivations. As a result you'll get overweight Tea Party activists (http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/c1.jpg) donning an ill-fitting Captain America costume in an effort to usurp his symbolism as their own.

As the OP suggests, when you wrap a protagonist in a flag and call him "Captain America," it's going to hard to disassociate that character with whatever feelings a moviegoer has with the U.S. at this point in history. It appears several posters have gotten a "jingoistic" vibe off the character by sight alone not knowing that since his post-WWII reintroduction in 1964, his characterization has been anything but (Ultimate incarnation notwithstanding).

My hope is that this "perception pitfall" is so obvious to the creators, that they make a point of casting him not as a manifestation of what America is, but what America aspires to be. I think this approach gains additional traction when one considers that this character is a member of the Brokaw-coined "Greatest Generation," (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Generation) and upon his revival in modern times (which I expect to be portrayed in the forthcoming Avengers movie), one of the core components of the character is that he is a man somewhat out-of-time and out-of-step with modern society.

To the charge that the character "is the only Marvel hero that somehow manages to be more ridiculous than Thor." I can only say that the character — as portrayed in the comics over the past five decades — exemplifies a strong moral compass, relentless, never-say-die determination and the combat proficiency to back it up. If that's ridiculous, then I'm a first-class lunatic for venerting it.

To sum up, I agree that the name and costume pose considerable hurdles to it's success overseas. But I think those hurdles are obvious and can be met with careful consideration, and that's where factor #3 comes into play.

[WotNot]

How many people like you are there out there in the so-called foreign markets? Not enough to automatically make the film successful in those territories, I'm guessing.
About as many as knew who Iron Man was before that hugely successful movie he was in. Maybe a few more.


Most people ignore critics, but in any case, do you really see a Captain America movie being the darling of European critics? Are the French critics--you know, the ones who came up with auteur theory--going to be doing cartwheels over a movie by Joe Johnston that features images like this (http://www.comingsoon.net/imageGallery/Captain_America__The_First_Avenger/Captain_America%3A_The_First_Avenger_9.jpg)?

Admittedly, I'm generalising, but even the more blockbuster-friendly critics tend to turn their noses up at U.S. ultra-patriotism. If someone is undecided about going to see the film, a critic won't be the one to convince them to do so.
Well, it's your assumption that the movie will be ultra-patriotic – so far the only evidence we have on that is the director saying that it isn't.

You also seem to be missing my point, I think. The objections you have to the Captain America film could just as easily be made to any number of big, dumb, fun action films that have been just as popular outside the US as within it. Anti-Americanism just isn't the huge overriding factor that you seem to think it is. We watch American movies all the time. We know you sometimes think rather too well of yourselves, but you make big, loud movies with people shooting each other and blowing shit up and looking cool. We enjoy them just as much as you do, but from our perspective they're all very, very American. Batman's American. Spider-Man's American. Superman's very American. The fact that this particular hero's costume is based on the Stars and Stripes is like a drop in the ocean of Americanness we see in all these films.

Captain America will succeed or fail on its merits as a movie, in the US and elsewhere. It's an American movie about an American hero – just like all the others.

And Superfluous Parentheses is right: that looks cool.

[Lobot]

Well, it's your assumption that the movie will be ultra-patriotic – so far the only evidence we have on that is the director saying that it isn't.

It probably won't be, but critics in general tend to be cultural elitists who react badly to the "cultural imperialism" that they perceive things like Captain America to personify. It doesn't matter if the character embodies universal ideals, because his name and his costume relate those values back to being American.

In other words, foreign film critics will perceive the film as a way of selling the American myth to impressionable children. Is this fair? Maybe not. But it's reality, IMHO.

You also seem to be missing my point, I think. The objections you have to the Captain America film could just as easily be made to any number of big, dumb, fun action films that have been just as popular outside the US as within it. Anti-Americanism just isn't the huge overriding factor that you seem to think it is. We watch American movies all the time. We know you sometimes think rather too well of yourselves, but you make big, loud movies with people shooting each other and blowing shit up and looking cool. We enjoy them just as much as you do, but from our perspective they're all very, very American. Batman's American. Spider-Man's American. Superman's very American. The fact that this particular hero's costume is based on the Stars and Stripes is like a drop in the ocean of Americanness we see in all these films.

Mate, I'm not American, despite the fact that you keep talking to me as if I am. I'm Australian.

You're a fan of Captain America, so maybe you can't see it, but Batman, Spider-man, X-men, Wonder Woman, the Hulk, etc. are different to Captain America in a crucial way: they're not overtly American.

American superheroes are obviously going to reflect the values of the culture they grew out of. We're all so steeped in American culture that the differences usually don't even register with us. But when it draws attention to itself with talk of "American values", it turns people off.

I'm a fan of Superman, who I admit is also "very American". But note that the films toned-down the flag-waving from the old George Reeves series, so, again, there was nothing overt. It's classic Americana, which is different again.

[B. Serum]

But when it draws attention to itself with talk of "American values", it turns people off.

Where did that come from?!

[Lobot]

What do you mean?

[B. Serum]

Who has been drawing attention to themselves with talk of "American values"?

[Lobot]

What I'm saying is that if it's a film about truth, justice and the American way, nobody minds, but when characters in a film start talking explicitly about American values, people start to tune-out.

Even big fans of Independence Day, for example, will include remarks like "I know it's really American, but..." Nobody feels the need to say that about, say, Terminator 2. Both are American action films, but one is self-consciously American.

I'm not talking about posters but rather the films themselves.

[B. Serum]

The way I read your posts, you made it sound like this movie is expressly selling itself in this way. It sounded like you were projecting onto it even though the only marketing we have from the movie is a handful of set photos.

[Lobot]

I guess what I'm getting at is that you can tweak Superman, say, to have greater international appeal. There's nothing explicitly American about Superman. But no matter how you tweak Captain America, he's still a guy called Captain America who's draped in the flag. It kind of limits how universal he can be.

The symbolism of the character is essentially making the statement "This is what America stands for", i.e. the noble fight for justice and equality. Most adults outside the U.S. don't buy into that idea, what with the U.S.'s foreign policy history. The gulf between what America supposedly stands for and what is done in practice shows a stunning lack of self-awareness in some people's eyes. This is why, even if the character were to be someone foreigners could, in principle, support, he is meant to symbolise America itself, and it's the disconnect between the lauded ideal and the reality that causes people's heads to explode.

[B. Serum]

I guess what I'm getting at is that you can tweak Superman, say, to have greater international appeal. There's nothing explicitly American about Superman. But no matter how you tweak Captain America, he's still a guy called Captain America who's draped in the flag. It kind of limits how universal he can be.

The symbolism of the character is essentially making the statement "This is what America stands for", i.e. the noble fight for justice and equality. Most adults outside the U.S. don't buy into that idea, what with the U.S.'s foreign policy history. The gulf between what America supposedly stands for and what is done in practice shows a stunning lack of self-awareness in some people's eyes. This is why, even if the character were to be someone foreigners could, in principle, support, he is meant to symbolise America itself, and it's the disconnect between the lauded ideal and the reality that causes people's heads to explode.

I see where you're coming from. Do you think people's attitude towards America's policies during WWII are the same as their attitude towards America's policies during, say the Bush era?

[Lobot]

No, I don't. But even if the film is set in WWII, it's being made and released now, and that's the catch.

[Lobot]

For example, I don't think Superman fighting for "the American way" with the flag flying behind him in the George Reeves series induced any eye-rolling in Australian audiences back then. Try that today and you'd elicit a very different reaction.

[Grumman]

For example, I don't think Superman fighting for "the American way" with the flag flying behind him in the George Reeve's series induced any eye-rolling in Australian audiences back then. Try that today and you'd elicit a very different reaction.
Would that be because of the "Modern" setting? I mean, if we can get behind Vasily Zaytsev, Hero of the Soviet Union, I'm sure we can do the same for Captain America.

[Isamu]

I'm Australian and Captain America was one of my favourite cartoons when I was growing up in the 70's.

I might watch a CA movie, but if it was a toss up between Green Lantern and CP, I'd pick GL, just because I think it's a better story, not because overt patriotism turns me off (although it does a bit).

[Lobot]

Would that be because of the "Modern" setting? I mean, if we can get behind Vasily Zaytsev, Hero of the Soviet Union, I'm sure we can do the same for Captain America.

Perhaps. I'm not sure. I'm a sucker for the sort of naive idealism of the American iconography of the first-half of the 20th century, and I suspect others respond better to it as well, but I'm not sure. Maybe it's more tone than setting--idealism rather than brashness?

ETA: No, I think setting does play a part. People are more sympathetic to a nostalgic look at ideals that didn't get fully realised vs. a country that still believes its myth despite the last 50 years.