Wisconsin GOP passes union-stripping bill [Archive]

elucidator

03-09-2011, 07:57 PM

I've seen things, I've seen bridges burning off the shoulders of Madison....

They had to. They had to come away with something. The have the backing of a substantial minority, maybe 25-30%. But it is the backing of an hysterically motivated minority, people who are going to vote. So Wisconsin Republican politicians come in two variety: the ones who wholeheartedly agree with every jot and tittle of the Teahadist movement, and the ones who are scared to death someone will find out they don't.

They could not compromise, could not make a deal. If they did, they might very well lose even that minority support. Who's their base then? The reasonable Republicans, the kind that drove your Dad's Oldsmobile?

They have to gamble that somehow, some way, they can cover all of this over before they have to face another election, gamble that the other side won't be motivated enough to show up, pray for a miracle.

Of course, it could be nothing more complicated than schoolyard culture in the halls of power.

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 08:21 PM

Kind of strips the veneer off the claim that union-busting is required for the budget, doesn't it?

Sure but I am willing to bet the Governor will say they had a dysfunctional legislature and in the interests of allowing the state to get back to business as usual he removed a roadblock.

Further, this measure will enable them to better control spending in the future.

FTR I am with you on the bullshit here but betting that is the case that will be made (or something like it).

Further, the Dems now cannot remain absent and say it is all about stripping rights. They have to come back.

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 08:31 PM

Frank

03-09-2011, 08:35 PM

Further, the Dems now cannot remain absent and say it is all about stripping rights. They have to come back.
I agree.

The next question is, What are the chances of a general strike?

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 08:39 PM

elucidator

03-09-2011, 08:39 PM

Reports are that the Dems intend to contest the legality of the procedures. Which works for everybody. Billable hours will abound, the issue will be submerged in the mind-numbing processes of the law. It would enter the happy state of passed (as promised) but yet to be enforced, with a multitude of convenient methods for dragging it out long enough to a) be forgotten or b) another election.

Works for everybody. The tighty righties get to tell their teahadist backers that they did as they promised, they passed it, but the activist judges got in their way. Dems can tell their base they won. Sorta. Kinda.

And then the clock starts ticking until this political genius governor utilizes his deft and acute instincts to totally step on his dick again. Bet on it.

Der Trihs

03-09-2011, 08:40 PM

Are you really surprised? Must you assign malign motive?They are Republicans; they have no other kind of motive. Greed and hatred and malice is all that they are.

elucidator

03-09-2011, 08:42 PM

But not sloth, lust, or gluttony? We get to keep those?

Lobohan

03-09-2011, 08:44 PM

Fleeing the state really helped this whole situation didn't it?

It escalated the conflict.

Now Walker and the Senators that stayed on the job have escalated the conflict.

One assumes the Dem Senators/Unions will now attempt to escalate the conflict further.

Then one must assume the Gov/Rep Senators will then attempt to escalate the conflict still further.

Gee...this has just been a grand example of a democratic republic in action. Congrats to all involved.So it's you contention that the Democrats are as at fault as the Republicans? You do know that the Republicans attempted to rush through a union-busting bill when they didn't run on that, right?

Frank

03-09-2011, 08:50 PM

Fleeing the state really helped this whole situation didn't it?
Yes, as a matter of fact, it did. Instead of the passage of Wisconsin's budget being somewhere on Page 25 of the major national papers and on the CNN ticker for 90 seconds, fleeing the state has put the union debate on steady headlines on print, TV, and online news, and has made people think about the issue nationwide.

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 08:57 PM

Reports are that the Dems intend to contest the legality of the procedures. Which works for everybody. Billable hours will abound, the issue will be submerged in the mind-numbing processes of the law. It would enter the happy state of passed (as promised) but yet to be enforced, with a multitude of convenient methods for dragging it out long enough to a) be forgotten or b) another election.

Works for everybody. The tighty righties get to tell their teahadist backers that they did as they promised, they passed it, but the activist judges got in their way. Dems can tell their base they won. Sorta. Kinda.

I really hope not.

You are probably right but the unions need to take this back to a good, old fashioned fight for rights.

If they limp through the courts for however long it is a matter of getting chipped away at. And they might lose there.

I am uncertain anyone has the gumption for a fight like this these days. Nintendo beckons.

I think it is a fight that needs fighting now though and not let it get swept under the rug.

elucidator

03-09-2011, 08:57 PM

Hell, Frank, it looks from here like that was the fucking plan! They're grooming Gov Walken for the Big Time, and looked for an issue to make him all Reaganesque. They went into this expecting a landslide of public approval.

Either that, or they're dumber than gravel.

Lobohan

03-09-2011, 08:58 PM

Either that, or they're dumber than gravel.I'm not seeing why it can't be both. :D

elucidator

03-09-2011, 09:00 PM

I really hope not.

You are probably right but the unions need to take this back to a good, old fashioned fight for rights.

If they limp through the courts for however long it is a matter of getting chipped away at. And they might lose there.

I am uncertain anyone has the gumption for a fight like this these days. Nintendo beckons.

I think it is a fight that needs fighting now though and not let it get swept under the rug.

Maybe I wasn't clear, I was just talking about the professional pols here, I don't for a second think the unions are going to fall asleep.

And this "Nintendo" of which you speak.....?

flickster

03-09-2011, 09:02 PM

elucidator

03-09-2011, 09:02 PM

I'm not seeing why it can't be both. :D

Exceeds theoretical limits of cognitive density. Threatens the very fabric of space/dumb continuum.

kunilou

03-09-2011, 09:02 PM

Since the legislature has decided that public employees shouldn't have collective bargaining, I think the logical next step is for every public employee to demand individual contract negotiations. And if the individual employees want Section C, paragraph 2, clause iii to read "will" instead of "shall," then I guess it's only fair that all 64,000 state employees will have to have individual meetings with their supervisors to go over their contracts line by line.

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 09:05 PM

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 09:09 PM

And this "Nintendo" of which you speak.....?

I'm saying I doubt my fellow Americans' will for a knock down, drag out, strike for months, walk the picket lines, shut down government fight at this point.

Wisconsinites have done a great job keeping the pressure on. Admittedly better than I expected at the outset.

I hope the prove me wrong again...I really do. I just think the outrage may not quite be enough to continue to stand in the cold when they could be at home awaiting the outcome of a trial that will last years and in the meantime doesn't affect them because an injunction is in place.

I think going that route the Republicans walk away from this relatively unscathed. They were facing a serious black eye and they ducked it. (for now)

Frank

03-09-2011, 09:09 PM

Reducing the electorate's belief in their established governmental institutions doesn't really benefit Wisconsin or the Nation.
Well, which party, precisely, gets elected on the "Government doesn't work!" platform, and then proves it?

Lobohan

03-09-2011, 09:11 PM

I salute the Wis Senate Republicans for being able find a way to navigate around the Dem blockade.

All the Dems did was delay things for three weeks which ended up costing the state another $7 MM for damage caused by the demonstrators.Does it bother you that your beliefs are based on lies?

From: http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/117409458.html
Madison - Officials charged with overseeing the state Capitol Friday backpedaled sharply from their estimate - delivered in a high-profile court case only the day before - that demonstrators did more than $7 million in damage to the building and grounds during the tumultuous yet peaceful protests that erupted Feb. 15.

Touring the building on Friday morning with state architect Dan Stephans, who oversaw the Capitol's restoration that concluded in 2001, Jeff Plale said he had not immediately observed any damage from demonstrations over Gov. Scott Walker's budget-repair bill. Plale is a former Democratic state senator and now the state facilities administrator.

flickster

03-09-2011, 09:12 PM

Politics is a spectator sport for a game played by weasels. It's a football game that never ends.....

As for trust in the electorate, the public couldn't possibly have a lower opinion of the weasels (all parties involved) than it already does.

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 09:14 PM

Well, it's probably a long way from over.

I don't think any of it, start to finish, has reflected any positive credit on either side.

I think it will devolve into an even more disappointing spectacle and will cast government even further into the just doesn't work image with a resulting decline in the electorate's respect for both state and national government.

Reducing the electorate's belief in their established governmental institutions doesn't really benefit Wisconsin or the Nation.

IMO.

How would you characterize the labor disputes of the past? Everyone should have stayed home because it was a spectacle (often a spectacle that makes this look like a dispute in a kindergarten playground)?

The electorate's belief in their established governmental institutions has been distinctly smashed by Walker & Company. None of this was a platform he ran on. No one saw it coming. He made a power grab.

What would you have people do? Roll over to avoid a spectacle?

Hell, this IS democracy in action. How do you think this country got started?

Brad the Impaler

03-09-2011, 09:15 PM

I salute the Wis Senate Republicans for being able find a way to navigate around the Dem blockade.

All the Dems did was delay things for three weeks which ended up costing the state another $7 MM for damage caused by the demonstrators.

http://The $7 mil was another Walker lie (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/117409458.html)

Officials charged with overseeing the state Capitol Friday backpedaled sharply from their estimate - delivered in a high-profile court case only the day before - that demonstrators did more than $7 million in damage to the building and grounds during the tumultuous yet peaceful protests that erupted Feb. 15.

But, don't let that stop you from continuing to spew their bullshit.

This is about union busting and give aways to Walkers cronies. Plain and simple. Nothing to do with the budget crisis that he created himself.

flickster

03-09-2011, 09:17 PM

To quote Obama, "Elections have consequences"

These actions were a result of the last election. The people will be able to vote their support, or not, in the next one.

Lobohan

03-09-2011, 09:18 PM

To quote Obama, "Elections have consequences"

These actions were a result of the last election. The people will be able to vote their support, or not, in the next one.Hey, how about a retraction for the lie you unknowingly spread up there?

Or do you just not care if something is true, as long as it supports your uneducated intuitions?

medicated

03-09-2011, 09:19 PM

I salute the Wis Senate Republicans for being able find a way to navigate around the Dem blockade.

All the Dems did was delay things for three weeks which ended up costing the state another $7 MM for damage caused by the demonstrators.

That number they were throwing around turned out to be off (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_ecb3162a-48e5-11e0-bcff-001cc4c002e0.html) by at least a factor of 20, and might turn out to be negligible.

[edit: beat to the punch, sigh]

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 09:21 PM

Well, which party, precisely, gets elected on the "Government doesn't work!" platform, and then proves it?

I'd say, given the history of the past 50 years or so, both.

I think there's little to choose between the two. They are both big government/big spend parties. The programs they've started all seem to end up deep in the red. Between them, they've run up a $14 Trillion debt that, even with the current low interest rates, eats up a huge amount of money.

In 2010, interest on our debt was $413,954,825,362.17. That's money that does NOTHING for our economy or people. That's money we could spend to improve things; schools, infrastructure, Medicare/caid...instead it's pretty much just gone.

When interest rates rise from their current lows, as they always do, the situation will be worse.

Bravo to both our parties for their sterling leadership.

flickster

03-09-2011, 09:23 PM

http://The $7 mil was another Walker lie (http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/117409458.html)

But, don't let that stop you from continuing to spew their bullshit.

This is about union busting and give aways to Walkers cronies. Plain and simple. Nothing to do with the budget crisis that he created himself.

From the linked article:
"It's important to note that the $7.5 million described yesterday (Thursday) in court was the information I had available to me based upon estimates provided me by the Division of State Facilities," said Michael Huebsch, secretary of the Department of Administration, during a news conference.

That would be Plale's division.

But on Friday, Plale said "I think that's more of a worst-case scenario."

The "worst case scenario" figure did come from Plale's own staff

scr4

03-09-2011, 09:29 PM

In 2010, interest on our debt was $413,954,825,362.17. That's money that does NOTHING for our economy or people.

What was the interest on your mortgage or car loan last year? Would you say that did nothing for you?

Brad the Impaler

03-09-2011, 09:29 PM

From the linked article:

The "worst case scenario" figure did come from Plale's own staff

And it was debunked, yet you still felt the need to throw it out there. Now that you know it was wrong, I'm sure you'll retract that rather than continue to repeat the fabricated figure.

smiling bandit

03-09-2011, 09:32 PM

Gosh, why not? Because it had nothing to do with the budget?

Certainly in the long run it does. But the reason is that the Democrats chose to absent themselves, barring any budget bill. So any related changes which don't fall into the budget directly can be passed. Hopefully, the Democrats will come back now, and they can come to a budgetary compromise.

Brad the Impaler

03-09-2011, 09:37 PM

Certainly in the long run it does. But the reason is that the Democrats chose to absent themselves, barring any budget bill. So any related changes which don't fall into the budget directly can be passed. Hopefully, the Democrats will come back now, and they can come to a budgetary compromise.

What compromise? Every concession EXCEPT ending collective bargaining was agreed to. And the Republicans forced that through anyway. There was never the option of compromise, it was do it 100% Walker's way. No deals, no talking it over, no negotiations. What is there to compromise now?

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 09:38 PM

Certainly in the long run it does. But the reason is that the Democrats chose to absent themselves, barring any budget bill. So any related changes which don't fall into the budget directly can be passed. Hopefully, the Democrats will come back now, and they can come to a budgetary compromise.

Budgetary compromise?

The unions already agreed (long ago) to the changes in their compensation.

This is about killing the union.

Missing the budget compromise being sought here.

ETA: Curses! Beat by seconds! :-)

TravisFromOR

03-09-2011, 09:40 PM

Gosh, why not? Because it had nothing to do with the budget?

Well, then what was it doing there in the first place?

flickster

03-09-2011, 09:40 PM

And it was debunked, yet you still felt the need to throw it out there. Now that you know it was wrong, I'm sure you'll retract that rather than continue to repeat the fabricated figure.

I'll do nothing of the sort as they still do not have an actual estimate.

Plale didn't say the numbers were incorrect, he said they were probably worst case scenario.

Snowboarder Bo

03-09-2011, 09:40 PM

I hope the unions and the Democratic senators all take a hard line "hell no" stance to any compromise now that Walker has shown himself to be a liar. Make the state honor it's commitments and pay them what the contract says they'll be paid.

Lobohan

03-09-2011, 09:43 PM

I'll do nothing of the sort as they still do not have an actual estimate.

Plale didn't say the numbers were incorrect, he said they were probably worst case scenario.Mental note, flickster is a completely remorseless liar.

flickster

03-09-2011, 09:44 PM

Mental note, flickster is a completely remorseless liar.

At least I'm able to read the linked article

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 09:44 PM

I'll do nothing of the sort as they still do not have an actual estimate.

PolitiFact has a lengthy article on this. They rate the $7 million estimate as "Pants on Fire" lie.

What will it take for you to accept the $7 million number is colossal bullshit?

While urging a judge to scale back protests, a state Department of Administration official said the state Capitol sustained $7.5 million in damage. State officials could not immediately provide a basis for the number, and later backtracked from it. The new estimate: $347,500, some 20 times less than the original one. And there are indications that even that could be high.

This smells like an effort to pour gas on the anti-protester fire. The claim was ridiculously high. And that gets a Pants on Fire rating.

SOURCE: http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/mar/08/mike-huebsch/wisconsin-officials-claim-cleaning-state-capitol-w/

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 09:45 PM

What was the interest on your mortgage or car loan last year? Would you say that did nothing for you?

I don't have notes on cars. The interest from my mortgage goes to a local individual's mortgage company, not a bank per se. It stays pretty much in the local community as others borrow from his company.

Unlike the interest on our debt which benefits the Chinese and other non-US entities to a great extent. Voinovich said that half the national debt is held by foreign investors, a statement considered true by Politifact. So, if you're happy we're borrowing roughly 40 cents of every dollar we spend and sending the interest to non-US entities, I'm glad you can view this in a positive light.

I can't see it as a successful long or even short term strategy.

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 09:47 PM

Well, hey...what's $347K in damages amongst friends?

I mean, how can you have a decent rally without tearing the shit out of stuff, right?

Brad the Impaler

03-09-2011, 09:47 PM

At least I'm able to read the linked article

And you still continue to lie about it. At least I know not to bother talking to you since silly things like the truth don't matter.

Lobohan

03-09-2011, 09:50 PM

Well, hey...what's $347K in damages amongst friends?

I mean, how can you have a decent rally without tearing the shit out of stuff, right?Hey stupid, stop for a second and think about this: 1. The estimate may be high. 2. Having 70k people move through a building will cause wear and tear. This is a normal thing. It doesn't mean that angry liberals were fucking knotholes in benches or upending trashcans or karate kicking the statuary.

flickster

03-09-2011, 09:50 PM

I provided a quote from the artical that supports my statements. So far all you've done is sling poo

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 09:51 PM

Well, hey...what's $347K in damages amongst friends?

I mean, how can you have a decent rally without tearing the shit out of stuff, right?

Yeah....whatever happens keep the damn public out of public buildings.

The horror of allowing people in the places where their elected representatives do their work!

Tish, the preservationist/blogger, returned for a look that same day.

"The extent of what I saw today is just chips and nicks -- cosmetic damage," he said in an interview. "I don’t see how they (protesters) could have conducted themselves any better."

Tish said the building bore the signs of the "accelerated cumulative effects of lots of people going through the building. I saw no intentional damage."

SOURCE: http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/mar/08/mike-huebsch/wisconsin-officials-claim-cleaning-state-capitol-w/

scr4

03-09-2011, 09:52 PM

I don't have notes on cars. The interest from my mortgage goes to a local individual's mortgage company, not a bank per se. It stays pretty much in the local community as others borrow from his company.

It doesn't matter where the money goes. My point is that sometimes there's a good reason for you to borrow money for something, just as there are good reasons for a government to borrow money and spend it. (Of course there are also bad reasons for both. Iraq was a terrible reason, for example.)

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 09:54 PM

Hey stupid, stop for a second and think about this: 1. The estimate may be high. 2. Having 70k people move through a building will cause wear and tear. This is a normal thing. It doesn't mean that angry liberals were fucking knotholes in benches or upending trashcans or karate kicking the statuary.

Hey, Einstein, stop for second and think about this: 1. Why should there be any damage? 2. Did you see the pictures of the place? Did that look like normal wear and tear going on?

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 09:55 PM

Yeah....whatever happens keep the damn public out of public buildings.

The horror of allowing people in the places where their elected representatives do their work!

Those TEA partiers you guys all love to hate left the Mall in DC pretty damn clean after the damn public held a rally in a public place.

Guess it's too much to ask of the WI union supporters though, eh? I mean, damn...clean up after yourself...what an outrageous concept.

flickster

03-09-2011, 09:56 PM

From the above linked JS Article:

The statehouse, he said, has 43 kinds of stone and the chemistry of those marbles and of different kinds of tape can interact differently. The longer the tape remains in place, the greater the chance for some effect, he said.

Many of the papers and banners posted in the statehouse were put up using painter's tape, which is employed to minimize effects on walls. Stephans said Friday he had ordered that tape sent to the Capitol during the demonstrations to minimize effects on the building.

On Friday, some of the tape and fliers had already been removed. In one second-floor hallway at least, no perceptible damage to the marble appeared where the tape had been removed.

But Draeger said marble is also very porous, allowing adhesives from tape to potentially be absorbed into the stone and do damage that might not be apparent immediately. He said he walked through the Capitol during the height of the protests and was struck by the number of papers and signs.

"It kind of made my heart sink really to walk in and see all that tape up on the walls," Draeger said.

Draeger said that damage can be difficult to detect right away and that even just estimating it could get expensive. His own "rough, ballpark estimate" of what a professional expert might charge to do a full assessment of possible damage was $100,000, he said.

So upwards of a $100k just to get a full assessment of the damage

Brad the Impaler

03-09-2011, 09:56 PM

I provided a quote from the artical that supports my statements. So far all you've done is sling poo

You misspelled "I didn't know what the fuck I was talking about and I'm a fucking liar who is proud of it and wont' admit I'm wrong".

Quote what you want, it also says the $7 mil was incorrect, yet you state it like it's fact, and you stand by it. When you know something isn't true, yet you repeat it, it's a lie. Call it poo flinging, you are the one that is proudly full of shit.

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 09:58 PM

I provided a quote from the artical that supports my statements. So far all you've done is sling poo

See Post #57.

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 09:59 PM

It doesn't matter where the money goes. My point is that sometimes there's a good reason for you to borrow money for something, just as there are good reasons for a government to borrow money and spend it. (Of course there are also bad reasons for both. Iraq was a terrible reason, for example.)

So you'd rather have the interest go to China than a US debtholder? Because it doesn't matter?

What do you think the Chinese will use that money to do? Invest in their economy/productivity/people maybe?

You don't think it'd be better to use that money to do those things in the US?

Running huge deficits, increasing an already huge debt and paying half the interest to foreign entities is a losing strategy. But we have good reasons for enthusiastically embracing a losing strategy I guess.

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 10:00 PM

Those TEA partiers you guys all love to hate left the Mall in DC pretty damn clean after the damn public held a rally in a public place.

Guess it's too much to ask of the WI union supporters though, eh? I mean, damn...clean up after yourself...what an outrageous concept.

There were less people and they were there for one day in the open.

In Wisconsin they were there for weeks and often inside.

Bit of a difference.

And do you have a cite for cleanup costs in DC?

The Messiah

03-09-2011, 10:01 PM

Congrats to the Mr. Walker.

Elections have consequences.

L. G. Butts, Ph.D.

03-09-2011, 10:05 PM

Hey, elections have consequences, right?

You mean like health care reform?

Lobohan

03-09-2011, 10:06 PM

Hey, Einstein, stop for second and think about this: 1. Why should there be any damage? 2. Did you see the pictures of the place? Did that look like normal wear and tear going on?Show me what you mean. The pics I saw look like taped up signs. And as for number 1, why do they repave streets? Think hard about this.

Because with heavy use things made out of matter show the effects of wear. Jesus fuck, think before asking and you won't look silly.

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 10:09 PM

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2579885/posts

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Euphonious Polemic

03-09-2011, 10:09 PM

Congrats to the Mr. Walker.

Elections have consequences.

Great - another fucking one-note wonder, probably sock.

Enjoy your short time here.

To the conservative SDMB members who have been around longer than 2 days - are you proud that this is the sort of asshole you have on your side?

Fear Itself

03-09-2011, 10:11 PM

Elections have consequences.Consequences have consequences. Unfortunately, you can't think past the end of your nose, so you think you have won. This is the biggest gift the unions could ever ask for, and you can't even see it.

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 10:12 PM

Show me what you mean. The pics I saw look like taped up signs. And as for number 1, why do they repave streets? Think hard about this.

Because with heavy use things made out of matter show the effects of wear. Jesus fuck, think before asking and you won't look silly.

Who cleaned up the signs? Did the protestors leave it looking as good as they found it? Didn't your dad tell you to return things in a better condition than they were given to you? You know, clean the shovel before you give it back to the neighbor?

Jesus Fuck...do you think people have a right to just dump their shit wherever and whenever they please and have someone else clean up after them?

Think before you reply and you won't look like a jackass.

elucidator

03-09-2011, 10:14 PM

At least I'm able to read the linked article

You're right. That's the least.

TravisFromOR

03-09-2011, 10:16 PM

Who cleaned up the signs? Did the protestors leave it looking as good as they found it? Didn't your dad tell you to return things in a better condition than they were given to you? You know, clean the shovel before you give it back to the neighbor?

Jesus Fuck...do you think people have a right to just dump their shit wherever and whenever they please and have someone else clean up after them?

Think before you reply and you won't look like a jackass.

So, are you alleging that not one spec of litter was thrown on the ground by the perfect teabaggers?

That's what I'm getting from your posts.

Lobohan

03-09-2011, 10:16 PM

Who cleaned up the signs? Did the protestors leave it looking as good as they found it? Didn't your dad tell you to return things in a better condition than they were given to you? You know, clean the shovel before you give it back to the neighbor?

Jesus Fuck...do you think people have a right to just dump their shit wherever and whenever they please and have someone else clean up after them?

Think before you reply and you won't look like a jackass.So it's costing seven million to pull the tape off the walls? You're not smart enough for this conversation, please go to IMHO and talk about your cat. Thank you.

margin

03-09-2011, 10:17 PM

But not sloth, lust, or gluttony? We get to keep those?

I think Newt's got them on permanent loan.

elucidator

03-09-2011, 10:23 PM

Tube socks run about $7 a bag at Target. Noob socks, you get whether you want 'em or not. Can't believe that shit-for-brains actually offered Freepernoia as a cite.

scr4

03-09-2011, 10:26 PM

So you'd rather have the interest go to China than a US debtholder? Because it doesn't matter?

What do you think the Chinese will use that money to do? Invest in their economy/productivity/people maybe?

You don't think it'd be better to use that money to do those things in the US?

We're borrowing money from them to do things in the US. I have no problem with that, if the money is invested in America, rather than wasted on wars and tax cuts for millionaires.

Wesley Clark

03-09-2011, 10:27 PM

Any predictions?

Will people go home figuring it is a fait accompli or are we about to see the re-birth of serious labor conflicts?

It looked like Walker was going to lose. He simply could not abide that so he doubled-down and is calling labor's bluff. Gutsy play if it works.

My opinion is labor needs to go to the mat on this one. Strikes, protests, endless fucking with the governor. If not they are well and truly fucked.

Close to 20 states are trying to pass anti-union legislation. Ohio recently passed some, and they have 2x the population of Wisconsin.

So Wisconsin may be in the news, but in most states where the GOP won the state government these bills are being passed.

So there are lots of governors who need to be fucked with. The problem is the dems aren't that great either. Obama governs like an early 90s northeast republican. The choices are an Eisenhower republican (people like Obama) vs. a Christian Coalition republican (people like Palin). So people on the left lose interest come election time.

Hopefully things like this will lead to a large scale, grass roots progressive movement that intimidates the democratic party rather than supplicates to it. The tea party was strong but they were also independent. For the most part liberal activist groups (labor, the netroots, liberals) tend to fight for 'all' democrats hoping the dems will support them on the issues. Then they get disappointed, and start again. I admire the tea party because they are somewhat independent of the GOP. They work through it, but they have their own agenda and interests. Liberals and labor do not have that kind of independence from the democrats.

W/o that, I don't see enough people voting to stop this kind of behavior. The 2010 election was won in part due to apathy. Hopefully some larger scale economic populist movement comes out of these policies. Cutting taxes on the wealthy while cutting food stamps and the wages/benefits of people who make 50k a year can't be 'that' popular.

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 10:30 PM

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2579885/posts

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Do you have any idea of the differences in size between the rallies?

elucidator

03-09-2011, 10:31 PM

...Cutting taxes on the wealthy while cutting food stamps and the wages/benefits of people who make 50k a year can't be 'that' popular.

But they won't be running on that. They'll run on the looming threat of Sharia law forcing Eagle Scouts into gay marriages.

The Messiah

03-09-2011, 10:32 PM

Do you have any idea of the differences in size between the rallies?

Some people have to go to work. ;)

elucidator

03-09-2011, 10:33 PM

The lucky ones, yeah.

Lobohan

03-09-2011, 10:34 PM

Some people have to go to work. ;)The tea party rallies were full of retired people.

TravisFromOR

03-09-2011, 10:36 PM

Some people have to go to work. ;)

Wasn't the inauguration a national event, attended by people from many walks of life, and members of both parties?

Dumbass.

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 10:39 PM

So, are you alleging that not one spec of litter was thrown on the ground by the perfect teabaggers?

That's what I'm getting from your posts.

If you can quote where I've alleged that, I'll respond. Otherwise, I can't help you understand my posts.

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 10:41 PM

So it's costing seven million to pull the tape off the walls? You're not smart enough for this conversation, please go to IMHO and talk about your cat. Thank you.

The only number I quoted was the ~$350K reduced estimate.

If I had a cat, I'd probably do better talking to him. It appears from your posts that most cats are smarter than you are.

gonzomax

03-09-2011, 10:42 PM

Fleeing the state really helped this whole situation didn't it?

It escalated the conflict.

Now Walker and the Senators that stayed on the job have escalated the conflict.

One assumes the Dem Senators/Unions will now attempt to escalate the conflict further.

Then one must assume the Gov/Rep Senators will then attempt to escalate the conflict still further.

Gee...this has just been a grand example of a democratic republic in action. Congrats to all involved.

How in the fuck could it escalate the conflict? If they were in the state, the Repubs would have jammed it through. That is the cold hard fact. They left and it was delayed. But now, it is absolutely clear that it is a wholly Repub plan . They were taking no prisoners. It was a union busting bill from the beginning. Now they got it. I hope they pay big time.

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 10:43 PM

Tube socks run about $7 a bag at Target. Noob socks, you get whether you want 'em or not. Can't believe that shit-for-brains actually offered Freepernoia as a cite.

That's right...attack the website but don't discuss the pictures.

You guys are teh funnay.

You'd dodge if those pics were on Huffpo.

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 10:50 PM

We're borrowing money from them to do things in the US. I have no problem with that, if the money is invested in America, rather than wasted on wars and tax cuts for millionaires.

The interest on the debt is the fifth largest Federal budget item, after Defense and Security spending ($890 billion), Social Security ($730 billion) and Medicare ($490 billion). (Source: U.S. Treasury, Interest).

This with interest rates very low, a situation that common sense tells you will not last forever.

Do you not understand how much more we could do, how much better off we'd be as a nation without paying this huge amount of interest? Interest on the debt is almost as much as the Medicare program budget!

That's really a great plan for success. Piss your income away on interest.

UncaThomas

03-09-2011, 10:56 PM

How in the fuck could it escalate the conflict? If they were in the state, the Repubs would have jammed it through. That is the cold hard fact. They left and it was delayed. But now, it is absolutely clear that it is a wholly Repub plan . They were taking no prisoners. It was a union busting bill from the beginning. Now they got it. I hope they pay big time.

Looks like the Repubs DID jam it through doesn't it? So all the running away from the job, all the Union rallying, all the trash, all the Nazi signs, all the Walker-should-be-run-over-by-a-truck posts really made a difference there. What a great way to get a compromise.

As I said upthread, this was a sorry spectacle that left no participant looking very good. I sure don't see it as beneficial for democratic republicanism in general. It was just one more example of dysfunctional government on both sides.

Something everyone can take real pride in; we're destroying our system of government.

The only thing missing was the crowds burning the Statehouse. Then we could REALLY be proud of both sides for failing to work together.

Snowboarder Bo

03-09-2011, 11:00 PM

That's right...attack the website but don't discuss the pictures.

You guys are teh funnay.

You'd dodge if those pics were on Huffpo.

What would you like to discuss about the pictures?

Lobohan

03-09-2011, 11:06 PM

What would you like to discuss about the pictures?Before we discuss them, I'd like Unca to provide cites that those pictures are actually from the times he says they are. I'd also like additional pics of the overall grounds so we can get a feel for the distribution.

Is that okay, Unca, do you mind backing up your citations with facts?

Snowboarder Bo

03-09-2011, 11:08 PM

Before we discuss them, I'd like Unca to provide cites that those pictures are actually from the times he says they are. I'd also like additional pics of the overall grounds so we can get a feel for the distribution.

Is that okay, Unca, do you mind backing up your citations with facts?

Shhh. You'll scare him away!

Euphonious Polemic

03-09-2011, 11:09 PM

Looks like the Repubs DID jam it through doesn't it? So all the running away from the job, all the Union rallying, all the trash, all the Nazi signs, all the Walker-should-be-run-over-by-a-truck posts really made a difference there. What a great way to get a compromise.

The republicans WILL. NOT. COMPROMISE.

What part of this do you not get? Walker would not negotiate about stripping unions of their rights to bargain collectively. At all.

joebuck20

03-09-2011, 11:22 PM

I've seen things, I've seen bridges burning off the shoulders of Madison....

All those collective bargaining rights will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

joebuck20

03-09-2011, 11:24 PM

So can one say that they....rammed this down our throats?

Whack-a-Mole

03-09-2011, 11:25 PM

You'd dodge if those pics were on Huffpo.

You never answered my question.

I'll help you since you know you are full of shit.

The September rally: "in excess of 75,000" (cite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_protests))
Glenn Beck rally: "as few as 78,000 attendees or as many as 96,000" (cite (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100830/cm_yblog_upshot/glenn-beck-rally-sparks-debate-over-crowd-size))
Obama Inauguration: "1.8 million people attended President Obama's inauguration." (cite (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2009/01/22/inaugural_crowd_size_reportedly_dc_record/))

And we have no idea when those pics were taken at the rallies...could well have been after city services did some cleaning. Free Republic cites should be your first clue that you are going to get destroyed when citing them.

Even if the pics were seconds after the rally before any cleaning the Obama pic had 18x more people than the most generous estimate of the Tea Party rallies.

Consider the Wisconsin protests had tens of thousands who stayed there for weeks.

So enough with your shit and false equivalencies.

Euphonious Polemic

03-09-2011, 11:27 PM

Good job.

Keep on whacking, but you know another one is just going to pop up somewhere!

Normal Phase

03-09-2011, 11:32 PM

So can one say that they....rammed this down our throats?

You might well say that. Public opinion running something like 60% AGAINST limiting collective bargaining rights, and the Wisconsin GOP rushes through a bill with nothing fiscal in it at all (so much for your "this is just to save the budget" fig leaf, Walker, you bastard) in order to do just that.

Der Trihs

03-09-2011, 11:34 PM

But not sloth, lust, or gluttony? We get to keep those?Those are the fun sins, so sure.

elucidator

03-09-2011, 11:36 PM

I saw some of the video tape on Fox of the wild and unruly protestors in Wisconsin. I saw with my own eyes people sitting on the floor beating drums! In a circle! Drums! Beating them with sticks like savages! I may have seen a feather, but I clutched my pearls and fainted dead away.

Really, just like Berkeley '68! Well, except for the letter from the Chief of Police commending the protestors for thier civility and decorum.

shy guy

03-09-2011, 11:45 PM

The republicans WILL. NOT. COMPROMISE.
I am astonished by the degree to which people do not recognize this fact. Democrats hardly talk about anything other than the enormous concessions they are willing to make in the pursuit of compromise with the Republicans, in spite of mountains of evidence demonstrating that Republicans do not know the meaning of the word.

The Republican Party are masters of controlling the narrative, so we get one of two outcomes. The first is that Republicans demand concessions in the name of compromise, they get everything they wanted, and Democrats declare this a victory. The second is that Democrats put up some marginal fight against Republican demands and are demonized for refusing to compromise.

I don't see any hope for an opposition to the Republican party until people accept that "compromise" is a completely illusory option.

FinnAgain

03-09-2011, 11:55 PM

This thread should be about unionized exotic dancers.

NDP

03-09-2011, 11:58 PM

So can one say that they....rammed this down our throats?

Actually, I was thinking more of the other end of the digestive tract.

Duckster

03-10-2011, 12:15 AM

I am astonished by the degree to which people do not recognize this fact. Democrats hardly talk about anything other than the enormous concessions they are willing to make in the pursuit of compromise with the Republicans, in spite of mountains of evidence demonstrating that Republicans do not know the meaning of the word.

The Republican Party are masters of controlling the narrative, so we get one of two outcomes. The first is that Republicans demand concessions in the name of compromise, they get everything they wanted, and Democrats declare this a victory. The second is that Democrats put up some marginal fight against Republican demands and are demonized for refusing to compromise.

I don't see any hope for an opposition to the Republican party until people accept that "compromise" is a completely illusory option.

I am reminded of the Cold War talks between the Soviet Union and the United States. IIRC, the Soviets did what they could to not compromise. Only the Americans did to move forward. I wonder which book on negotiations the Wisconsin Republicans read from, because it surely wasn't from Constitutional Convention of 1787.

Snowboarder Bo

03-10-2011, 12:25 AM

This thread should be about unionized exotic dancers.

AFAIK PONY still exists. But really, that topic deserves it's own thread.

septimus

03-10-2011, 12:33 AM

Wisonsin's action might be the "straw that breaks the camel's back" ... if we even had a camel left with a back to break. :(

I am on the affirmative side in the nearby "Do we need a militant left?" thread, but most Americans are well-fed and not up for militancy. What's the mood on college campuses? Youth will need to be in the vanguard of serious protest. Students in the 1960's wanted political change; Dopers in touch with students: Is there any chance of such a mood today?

My opinion is labor needs to go to the mat on this one. Strikes, protests, endless fucking with the governor. If not they are well and truly fucked.

"needs to go" and "will go" are two different things. In the post-Nixon years, have right-thinking Americans "gone to the mat" even once?

San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run . . . but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world.
...
So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.

3:20:59 or bust

03-10-2011, 12:41 AM

I am on the affirmative side in the nearby "Do we need a militant left?" thread, but most Americans are well-fed and not up for militancy. What's the mood on college campuses? Youth will need to be in the vanguard of serious protest. Students in the 1960's wanted political change; Dopers in touch with students: Is there any chance of such a mood today?

Funny you should ask. I just talked to a university student today about this very topic. She hadn't heard about it. She didn't know what I was talking about. I'm not sure she could find Wisconsin on a map.

Hey, it's just one student, but frankly I don't see the majority of college campuses awash with protests over this.

Now, the staff at those same universities are a different story. They're pretty much all union members.

Whack-a-Mole

03-10-2011, 12:41 AM

"needs to go" and "will go" are two different things. In the post-Nixon years, have right-thinking Americans "gone to the mat" even once?

No hence my "Nintendo" comment much earlier in this thread.

It is difficult these days to push people out of their complacency, stop playing Mario and get them off the couch.

I think people are getting sense of it but I fear the damage will be done before they get a clue and get off the couch.

Whack-a-Mole

03-10-2011, 12:47 AM

Funny you should ask. I just talked to a university student today about this very topic. She hadn't heard about it. She didn't know what I was talking about. I'm not sure she could find Wisconsin on a map.

Hey, it's just one student, but frankly I don't see the majority of college campuses awash with protests over this.

Now, the staff at those same universities are a different story. They're pretty much all union members.

See...here is the problem.

The attacks are occurring across numerous fronts. So far each side sees the other side as not their problem. Thing is they are linked.

Not sure what university you are at but the following is not uncommon. Cuts are coming for everyone. That'd be ok if everyone took a little bite of the shit sandwich but mostly the Republicans are handing money to special interests and screwing the majority of the population one way or another. It's like a game of musical chairs and the government is giving all the chairs to those who pay them (special interest groups with deep pockets).

Ask if she'd care about something like this.

University students (among others) need to wake up and become politically active. (Some are of course...all of them need to be)

Penn State: Proposed state cut 'catastrophic'

<snip>

Penn State's appropriation, under the budget proposal, would be reduced by 52.4 percent, or $182 million, a figure the university called "devastating," and the largest reduction in state support in its history.

"A funding gap this large is going to fundamentally change the way we operate, from the number of students we can educate, to the tuition we must charge, to the programs we offer and the services we can provide, to the number of employees and the research we undertake," said university President Graham Spanier in the news release. The university now receives only about 8 percent of its budget from the state. Under Corbett's proposal, that would drop to 4 percent.

Read more: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/03/08/2568555/penn-state-proposed-higher-education.html#ixzz1GB1OtdAk

Or how about states trying to take voting rights away from college students: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=599934

Miss Purl McKnittington

03-10-2011, 01:20 AM

The only number I quoted was the ~$350K reduced estimate.

Have you heard about the painters union's offer to clean up any damage to the Capitol for free? They're the ones who have been painting and repairing the building for the past 100 years.

The local branch of the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades District Council also weighed in, saying the union has a century of experience painting and removing adhesive tape from the Capitol. Business Manager John Jorgensen said he believed the damage estimates were overstated and offered the union's volunteer labor to take down signs and clear any debris on the walls.

http://lacrossetribune.com/news/state-and-regional/wi/article_99393422-472b-11e0-acea-001cc4c03286.html

So that takes the cost to the state down considerably, if the people in charge are actually concerned about cost and are smart enough to take the painters union up on their offer.

elucidator

03-10-2011, 02:02 AM

Well, I personally saw the Fox News video of the protestors, and they were totally insanely unruly, lots of stuff on fire and screaming freaks. Funny thing, it was in, like, black and white. And I coulda swore Abby Hofffman was dead! But, no, there he was, and, in fact, he's looking damned good for his age!

Miss Purl McKnittington

03-10-2011, 02:05 AM

I know that I have derived immense enjoyment for years from the palm trees and perpetual sixty-degree weather that surround the Capitol building in Wisconsin.

superslug

03-10-2011, 06:33 AM

The gnashing of teeth and howling has reached biblical proportions here. I think all of you public employees should state your case in the marketplace.

margin

03-10-2011, 07:00 AM

The gnashing of teeth and howling has reached biblical proportions here. I think all of you public employees should state your case in the marketplace.

You mean like the Koch Brothers? The only people the Repubs listen to are rich people and businesses out to cut employee wages to below the poverty level.

superslug

03-10-2011, 07:09 AM

You mean like the Koch Brothers? The only people the Repubs listen to are rich people and businesses out to cut employee wages to below the poverty level.

It's time to escalate to the next level; call their bluff.

margin

03-10-2011, 07:43 AM

I certainly hope that's what happens.

Jeez, we're coming up on the hundredth anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire. The Repubs want to send us back to those good old days.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 07:57 AM

I certainly hope that's what happens.

Jeez, we're coming up on the hundredth anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire. The Repubs want to send us back to those good old days.

I suppose the absolute idiocy of this comment is forgivable, given that this is the Pit and a rant thread.

superslug

03-10-2011, 08:01 AM

I certainly hope that's what happens.

Jeez, we're coming up on the hundredth anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire. The Repubs want to send us back to those good old days.

Yeah.. Because teachers work in sweat shops with physically dangerous conditions.

You should definitely state your case in the marketplace.

xenophon41

03-10-2011, 08:05 AM

I suppose the absolute idiocy of this comment is forgivable, given that this is the Pit and a rant thread.
I suppose the utter pretense that the elimination of workers' rights to organize, of safety & environmental regulations and of other labor laws aren't long term goals of the Republican Party is forgivable, given that you're such a serious, sober and polite conservative.

margin

03-10-2011, 08:06 AM

God, I love how stupid Republicans are. They like to ignore small indicators, especially of their own assholishness.

Run along, Bricker. I'm sure you've got to defend James O'Keefe, or at least try your patented bait and switch where a topic about the much-documented bullshit of Repubs gets changed to one of your patented derails about something some liberal supposedly did that's even worse. Ta ta.

superslug

03-10-2011, 08:22 AM

I love how liberals try to equate the American labor movement to the shenanagans of the NEA. The "plight" of the unionized educator is definitely something you should take up in the marketplace.

margin

03-10-2011, 08:23 AM

"Marketplace" is the word he masturbates to.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 08:27 AM

"Marketplace" is the word he masturbates to.

You just claimed that teachers work in physically hazardous conditions.

But the idiot in this thread must be someone else.

xenophon41

03-10-2011, 08:34 AM

You just claimed that teachers work in physically hazardous conditions.

But the idiot in this thread must be someone else.

No he didn't, but go ahead and exploit whatever amphiboly exists in the quote to try and make it seem that was his claim. You'll probably convince somebody.

superslug

03-10-2011, 08:56 AM

No he didn't, but go ahead and exploit whatever amphiboly exists in the quote to try and make it seem that was his claim. You'll probably convince somebody.

So... Where's the "irony" in a labor accident if it's not related to the NEA?

Bricker

03-10-2011, 09:10 AM

No he didn't, but go ahead and exploit whatever amphiboly exists in the quote to try and make it seem that was his claim. You'll probably convince somebody.

Perhaps I was mistaken.

What, exactly, was the relevance of his reference to the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, then?

xenophon41

03-10-2011, 09:13 AM

So... Where's the "irony" in a labor accident if it's not related to the NEA?

Assuming purely for the sake of rhetoric that your question is earnest...

The base claim is “The [Republicans] want to send us back to those good old days [which enabled the conditions at the Triangle shirtwaist factory resulting in the Fire].” Because of that claim’s position in this particular thread, one may assume that margin feels the legislation striking public employees’ collective bargaining rights as perpetrated by the Wisconsin GOP is a point of evidence for the claim, but that rationation must be inferred by the reader.

At minimum, the claim requires an argument, but at worst it is merely an undefended assertion in the general context of “public employees’ bargaining rights” and only by a leap of faith related to the very much more remote context of “public school teachers’ working conditions”.

The strawman you and Bricker have erected to represent margin’s [not yet proferred] argument seems to be the syllogism:
a) Triangle factory workers had no union/collective bargaining powers,
b) public school teachers (and other public employees) just had selected collective bargaining rights taken away from them in Wisconsin, therefore
c) public school teachers in Wisconsin suffer the same working conditions Triangle Shirtwaist Factory workers experienced 100 years ago.

Please show where margin has even given a bare sketch of part c) above.

Euphonious Polemic

03-10-2011, 09:13 AM

You just claimed that teachers work in physically hazardous conditions.

But the idiot in this thread must be someone else.

Really? He did?

I just scanned back over the thread, and cannot find such a quote. Would you like to re-phrase, and perhaps put the word "implied" in there somewhere? I know that you're a stickler for accuracy.

In the scheme of things, you have to admit, Bricker, that there is a movement among the right-wing to eliminate unions or remove their bargaining rights. Perhaps there is not an absolute desire to return to burning workers to death (look up hyperbole sometime), but they do want the pendulum to swing nonetheless. Swiing WAAYYY to the other side.

And the recent influx of those from some godforsaken board or other should give you a clue that there are plenty of folk out there, supposedly in your party who are far to the right of you. They do not have moderation in mind. They don't want to have the power of unions tempered somewhat. They want unions eliminated.

Entirely.

We have heard that "unions don't matter anymore". "workers will be protected by companies anyway". "'We can never return to those times".

Well guess what. Yes we can return to those times. Perhaps, as I said, not to the times of workers burning to death. But certainly towards low wages, no benefits, poor working conditions and no ability to complain to management. This is the end game that your compatriots are hoping for.

Why? Not because they are "evil" or even "bad". But because it will give them more money, more profit, and a larger share of the pie that they already have a huge share of. It's human nature. Greed is Good.

Lobohan

03-10-2011, 09:13 AM

You just claimed that teachers work in physically hazardous conditions.

But the idiot in this thread must be someone else.I think we found him.

Because you like to pretend to be too stupid to understand something when you disagree with it, I'll engage your little kabuki dance and explain it to you so you can drop the idiot mask.

Unions are the reason we have good work conditions today. Destroying unions is an attempt to walk back the progress we've made.

But you knew that.

margin

03-10-2011, 09:18 AM

You just claimed that teachers work in physically hazardous conditions.

But the idiot in this thread must be someone else.

Show me where I said that, you liar. Go ahead.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 09:40 AM

Assuming purely for the sake of rhetoric that your question is earnest...

The base claim is “The [Republicans] want to send us back to those good old days [which enabled the conditions at the Triangle shirtwaist factory resulting in the Fire].” Because of that claim’s position in this particular thread, one may assume that margin feels the legislation striking public employees’ collective bargaining rights as perpetrated by the Wisconsin GOP is a point of evidence for the claim, but that rationation must be inferred by the reader.

At minimum, the claim requires an argument, but at worst it is merely an undefended assertion in the general context of “public employees’ bargaining rights” and only by a leap of faith related to the very much more remote context of “public school teachers’ working conditions”.

The strawman you and Bricker have erected to represent margin’s [not yet proferred] argument seems to be the syllogism:
a) Triangle factory workers had no union/collective bargaining powers,
b) public school teachers (and other public employees) just had selected collective bargaining rights taken away from them in Wisconsin, therefore
c) public school teachers in Wisconsin suffer the same working conditions Triangle Shirtwaist Factory workers experienced 100 years ago.

Please show where margin has even given a bare sketch of part c) above.

I certainly hope margin appreciates the substantial assistance you have given his argument.

I find it equally likely -- indeed, more so, given margin's sub-standard intellect -- that he simply meant that the outcome from this bill is that teachers will work is physically hazardous conditions. Now, if I were to imagine that margin could understand and adopt your argument as his own, perhaps I might be moved to acknowledge that it's unlikely. But merely because you have to savvy and wit to construct a palatable argument for margin does not mean that this is what margin meant in the first place.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 09:41 AM

Show me where I said that, you liar. Go ahead.

Sure:

Jeez, we're coming up on the hundredth anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire. The Repubs want to send us back to those good old days.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 09:46 AM

I know that you're a stickler for accuracy.

In the scheme of things, you have to admit, Bricker, that there is a movement among the right-wing to eliminate unions or remove their bargaining rights. Perhaps there is not an absolute desire to return to burning workers to death (look up hyperbole sometime), but they do want the pendulum to swing nonetheless.

Oh, it was hyperbole.

Well, that's a better description than "irresponsible accusatory bullshit," I grant. And at only four syllables instead of twelve, it's cheaper too, if one assumes there's a per-syllable charge for such things.

But see: when called on hyperbole, the sane and responsible poster will admit, "OK, that was hyperbole. But my ACTUAL point remains: ....."

Much as you have done. You've identified the actual point: that there is a movement among the right-wing to eliminate unions or remove their bargaining rights.

We could argue that point, except that I concede its truth, so the argument would be short.

xenophon41

03-10-2011, 09:50 AM

...given margin's sub-standard intellect... ... if I were to imagine that margin could understand and adopt your argument as his own...
ad nauseum

Y'know, condescension of this magnitude would seem more convincing were it coming from someone other than a willing ally to superslug, the Messiah and Unca Thomas.

The fact is, margin made no argument resembling the one you manufactured for him. The fact is other posters here with "savvy and wit" infer the same argument I did. Whatever your perceptions of any specific interlocutor, your arguments must rest on actual evidence. You've offered no such evidence in support of your interpretation of margin's claim.

Hampshire

03-10-2011, 09:51 AM

So what's the incentive now to become a state worker in Wisconsin?
As far back as I remember there was always a trade off when taking a government job. Sure the pay may be sub-par compared to the private sector and opportunities for advancement are leaner and slower but the trade-off was always the benefits of job security, pensions, etc.
You strip those away and suddenly why in the world would anybody want to work for the state?
Wisconsin thinks it has problems now wait till this completely strips them of any talented work pool they had. Good luck with prospective employees they're going to attract.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 09:54 AM

Y'know, condescension of this magnitude would seem more convincing were it coming from someone other than a willing ally to superslug, the Messiah and Unca Thomas.

The fact is, margin made no argument resembling the one you manufactured for him. The fact is other posters here with "savvy and wit" infer the same argument I did. Whatever your perceptions of any specific interlocutor, your arguments must rest on actual evidence. You've offered no such evidence in support of your interpretation of margin's claim.

Sure I did: margin's reference to the Triangle disaster, combined with his refusal -- even now, in light of the subsequent discussion -- to admit that was hyperbole. I'll believe that wasn't his intent if he comes along and says, "Yeah, that was hyperbole."

But he won't, because he's too incompetent to look up 'hyperbole' and sound out all the big words in the definition.

xenophon41

03-10-2011, 09:59 AM

Oh, it was hyperbole.
Actually, since we're being righteously superior, no it wasn't hyperbole. margin didn't say "The GOP wants to burn workers to death", he claimed that they want to return us to the "good old days" of no unions and no labor protections. That he gives the Triangle fire as a likely consequence of a return to those conditions is not even marginally (heh) hyperbolic. More of a "no shit" expectation based on historical data.

Lobohan

03-10-2011, 10:00 AM

Sure I did: margin's reference to the Triangle disaster, combined with his refusal -- even now, in light of the subsequent discussion -- to admit that was hyperbole. I'll believe that wasn't his intent if he comes along and says, "Yeah, that was hyperbole."

But he won't, because he's too incompetent to look up 'hyperbole' and sound out all the big words in the definition.Oh oh, Bricker woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Get a cup of coffee and calm down. You're acting like a doucebag. More than usual, I mean.

margin

03-10-2011, 10:35 AM

Oh oh, Bricker woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Get a cup of coffee and calm down. You're acting like a doucebag. More than usual, I mean.

It's not an act. He is a douchebag, not the least of which is because he knows I'm a woman, and I've called him out repeatedly for his sexist dogwhistles. I'm not sure if he's so distracted by the fumes from his own bullshit or what, but he's skipped the usual sexism.

The way he lies about what I said is proof. The fact that he bloviates on and ON and motherfucking ON is just a cherry on top. Bricker hopes that if he uses enough words, people will forget who he sides what, what he's defending----union-busting, lying, conservative human rights violations, etc., etc.,----and focus instead on picking part his pretentious bullshit. It's a constant. He'll follow this up with charges of hysteria, mental illness, various insults, more bloviating, more long-winded lectures while he faps away, and so on.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 10:41 AM

Actually, since we're being righteously superior, no it wasn't hyperbole. margin didn't say "The GOP wants to burn workers to death", he claimed that they want to return us to the "good old days" of no unions and no labor protections. That he gives the Triangle fire as a likely consequence of a return to those conditions is not even marginally (heh) hyperbolic. More of a "no shit" expectation based on historical data.

So let's be clear: you're actually claiming that the likely result of the current legislation is a return to working conditions that resulted in the Triangle fire?

OK, question: by what convoluted path does OSHA vanish? Does Harry Potter Apport in and shout "Expelliamos!" at them?

Bricker

03-10-2011, 10:45 AM

Oh oh, Bricker woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Get a cup of coffee and calm down. You're acting like a doucebag. More than usual, I mean.

Your side of idiots just refused to back down from the claim that the "likely result" of this legislation is a return to the days of no workplace safety rules. It's a "no shit," certainty.

If this were just margin, I'd be bemused and casually dismissive; margin requiring no serious thought. But xenophon41 surprises me.

margin

03-10-2011, 10:45 AM

Bricker

03-10-2011, 10:46 AM

It's not an act. He is a douchebag, not the least of which is because he knows I'm a woman, and I've called him out repeatedly for his sexist dogwhistles. I'm not sure if he's so distracted by the fumes from his own bullshit or what, but he's skipped the usual sexism.

The way he lies about what I said is proof. The fact that he bloviates on and ON and motherfucking ON is just a cherry on top. Bricker hopes that if he uses enough words, people will forget who he sides what, what he's defending----union-busting, lying, conservative human rights violations, etc., etc.,----and focus instead on picking part his pretentious bullshit. It's a constant. He'll follow this up with charges of hysteria, mental illness, various insults, more bloviating, more long-winded lectures while he faps away, and so on.

Of what relevance is your gender? I assumed your stupidity came from your lack of wit -- I doubt your ovaries have anything to do with it, although if you think they do, go ahead and make the case; perhaps I'll become convinced that your lack of a Y chromosome earns you a pass, although I doubt it.

Euphonious Polemic

03-10-2011, 10:51 AM

AlienVessels

03-10-2011, 10:54 AM

jayjay

03-10-2011, 11:03 AM

Bricker, why is it that you always have to pick times proximate to my posting to defend or excuse you in some other thread to turn into "Supersnotty Right-Wing Condescender"?

margin

03-10-2011, 11:09 AM

Bricker, "Supersnotty Right-Wing Condescender"?

Well, that's certainly a very specific superhero name. I can hardly wait to see the costume.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 11:17 AM

Bricker, why is it that you always have to pick times proximate to my posting to defend or excuse you in some other thread to turn into "Supersnotty Right-Wing Condescender"?

Not sure... bad luck, maybe?

Look, argue intelligently with me and I always return the courtesy.

margin is a useless waste of oxygen. I refuse to pretend that any of her foolish little turds dropped into the thread here and there like a diarrheatic pigeon can be mistaken for actual argument. If she miraculously manages to say something useful, I'll address it.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 11:20 AM

Jesus Bricker! I was hoping that you could be a good influence on the recent influx of mouth-breathing morons/socks and trolls from some unmoderated board, but I see now I was mistaken. They're teaching you to be an illogical asshole.

It's like when your kid goes to play with some potty-mouthed tots from down the block. One hopes that your child will be a good influence on them. But nooooo. He comes home and says "What's for fucking dinner?"

Again: if someone has an actual point to make, I'll address it. So far, other people have, and I have responded to them with rebuttal.

margin -- crimmney, even you must admit that margin is a useless twittering fool, programmed like a monkey to respond with whatever vacuous phrases she;s read recently, as long as they don't exceed her syllable count (four for dumb repetition; one for actual understanding).

Ask yourself, honestly: if margin were adopting the same level of (heh heh heh) intelligence, but advancing a right wing viewpoint, how quickly would you and a dozen others tear her to shreds? You tolerate her foolishness because she's spouting the company line.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 11:22 AM

You know, you keep saying there are laws on the books and recent history is already showing that all you have to do to nullify that regulation is defund enforcement and shout "regulation strips jobs".

That's how OSHA vanishes.

I've never been in a trade shop where OSHA issues didn't take a back seat to getting the job done. And I've been in dozens. In one shop, the account had a fire with major smoke damage throughout the building because like most, their waste cans weren't kept OSHA-compliant.

If the laws and regulations aren't enforced, they're moot.

And it's your contention, is it, that the fact that OSHA will vanish by this method is so certain, so utterly beyond the realm of debate that it's fairly described as a "...'no shit' expectation based on historical data?"

AlienVessels

03-10-2011, 11:27 AM

And it's your contention, is it, that the fact that OSHA will vanish by this method is so certain, so utterly beyond the realm of debate that it's fairly described as a "...'no shit' expectation based on historical data?"

No, I'm telling you that if OSHA is poorly enforced now, it will be even more poorly enforced in a climate where it is defunded and/or the regulatory resources are directed elsewhere.

The law can only protect if it is enforced. Defunding is the new method for nullifying regulatory laws on the books.

crowmanyclouds

03-10-2011, 11:28 AM

At a Feb. 15 House Subcommittee on Workforce Protections hearing on OSHA’s regulatory agenda and its impact on job creation, witnesses slammed the agency for exploring new regulations that could damage businesses, imposing “substantial burdens” on employers without regard to cost concerns and overlooking the interests of small businesses.
“Worker safety is a goal we all share,” said Subcommittee Chairman Tim Walberg, R-Mich. “However, we have real concerns with the policies and process the administration has recently proposed to reach that goal.” ...

... In his testimony, Thomas M. Sullivan, an attorney who runs the Small Business Coalition for Regulatory Relief, criticized OSHA for not fully considering how some regulations – such as the now-withdrawn proposal to add an MSD column to the OSHA 300 log – will affect small businesses.

“Small businesses felt that OSHA’s cost estimate [of the MSD column proposal] reflected a misunderstanding of how small employers work and the pressure that employers feel when writing down a number on a form for the federal government,” he said. ...CITE (http://ehstoday.com/standards/osha/house-hearing-criticizes-osha-jobs-business-0216/)Hmm, why would that be?On Jan. 25, OSHA announced that it has temporarily withdrawn its proposal to restore a column for work-related musculoskeletal disorders (MSD) on employer injury and illness logs, citing concerns from small businesses. ...

... According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, MSDs accounted for 28 percent of all reported workplace injuries and illnesses requiring time away from work in 2009. ...CITE (http://safetydirector.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/osha-withdrawals-proposal-to-add-msd-column-on-injury-logs/)Oh, that would be why.

CMC fnord!

Oldeb

03-10-2011, 11:29 AM

And it's your contention, is it, that the fact that OSHA will vanish by this method is so certain, so utterly beyond the realm of debate that it's fairly described as a "...'no shit' expectation based on historical data?"

Please give an example of an improved working enviroment not related to pressure from government laws or worker unions or expected pressure from same.

Unions are being removed and deregulation is a big Republican ideal. On what basis is your belief that OSHA will not be eroded into non-existance in the name of "saving a few dollars here and there" built?

xenophon41

03-10-2011, 11:30 AM

So let's be clear: you're actually claiming that the likely result of the current legislation is a return to working conditions that resulted in the Triangle fire?

OK, question: by what convoluted path does OSHA vanish? Does Harry Potter Apport in and shout "Expelliamos!" at them?

So, are you now constructing an argument for me, to join Mr. Working C. Scarecrow who you built to stand in for margin?

My argument, to be very very clear for you since you seem to be on a "pretend I'm stupid enough to believe my paraphrase is your argument" kick:

Republicans have, as not secret at all and quite publicly defended goals, the ultimate elimination (or complete marginalization) of labor unions, and the ultimate reversal (or complete emasculation through defunding or legislative restriction of gov't agencies) of environmental, health and safety regulations. I do not offer some sort of slippery slope argument about collective bargaining or hyperbolic reaction regarding the direct effects of the titular Wisconsin bill examined in this thread.

I'm speaking of the conditions that will inevitably result from the stated conservative goal of rolling back the worker protections and empowering organizations built up in the 20th Century to return to the regulatory environment and ownership slanted power structures of the 19th Century.

Invoke Harry Potter all you want. Maybe his wand pointing and Latinate sounding shouts will reinforce your handwaving and America's gilded age history will 'disappeariandum' forthwith.

(addressed to AlienVessels)
And it's your contention, is it, that the fact that OSHA will vanish by this method is so certain, so utterly beyond the realm of debate that it's fairly described as a "...'no shit' expectation based on historical data?"It's my contention that OSHA will vanish if the GOP is allowed to fulfill their stated goal of making OSHA vanish. Yeah, that's a "no shit" expectation.

Euphonious Polemic

03-10-2011, 11:33 AM

Well, that's certainly a very specific superhero name. I can hardly wait to see the costume.

I hope it comes with a cape.

BobLibDem

03-10-2011, 11:35 AM

Euphonious Polemic

03-10-2011, 11:38 AM

Just where the hell do you think the Republican ideals of:

Weakening/eliminating unions
Defunding/eliminating regulatory agencies

Will logically lead? Ideal working conditions for all? Increased safety?

Being of the opinion that unsafe/bad working conditions can never happen again if we remove current safeguards is nothing more than magical thinking.

3:20:59 or bust

03-10-2011, 11:38 AM

I hope it comes with a cape.

Yeah, I got it.

And I agree.

jayjay

03-10-2011, 11:38 AM

I think you gotta be some kind of stupid to not know that Republicans would dearly love to entirely eliminate OSHA. If you're in denial about this then you're either an asshole or an imbecile, or more likely both. The Wisconsin Ash Wednesday Massacre is but one step on that journey. Get rid of the unions, then get rid of the minimum wage, then get rid of OSHA.

Then get rid of the FDA, the Dept. of Labor, the EPA, the Dept. of Education, the Dept. of Energy...all of those little annoyances that the overlords don't like. Bonus points for making sure the public schools only produce dim automatons who won't ever question their proper rulers.

Whack-a-Mole

03-10-2011, 11:39 AM

Republicans have, as not secret at all and quite publicly defended goals, the ultimate elimination (or complete marginalization) of labor unions, and the ultimate reversal (or complete emasculation through defunding or legislative restriction of gov't agencies) of environmental, health and safety regulations. I do not offer some sort of slippery slope argument about collective bargaining or hyperbolic reaction regarding the direct effects of the titular Wisconsin bill examined in this thread.

I'm speaking of the conditions that will inevitably result from the stated conservative goal of rolling back the worker protections and empowering organizations built up in the 20th Century to return to the regulatory environment and ownership slanted power structures of the 19th Century.

A few states are now looking to repeal child labor laws.

Cuz you know the damn commies are standing in the way of a proper market by keeping kids out of the work force. Bastards...

Bricker

03-10-2011, 11:39 AM

No, I'm telling you that if OSHA is poorly enforced now, it will be even more poorly enforced in a climate where it is defunded and/or the regulatory resources are directed elsewhere.

The law can only protect if it is enforced. Defunding is the new method for nullifying regulatory laws on the books.

OK. And the Wisconsin legislature passing a law eliminating the ability of Wisconsin public employees to collectively bargain advances to goal of defunding OSHA... how?

Bricker

03-10-2011, 11:41 AM

I think you gotta be some kind of stupid to not know that Republicans would dearly love to entirely eliminate OSHA. If you're in denial about this then you're either an asshole or an imbecile, or more likely both. The Wisconsin Ash Wednesday Massacre is but one step on that journey. Get rid of the unions, then get rid of the minimum wage, then get rid of OSHA.

Cite?

And even if I accept this as true without your having to reproduce the secret GOP meetings you are somehow privvy to... even then, you don't contend that the Wisconsin vote result leads inevitably to the destruction of OSHA, do you?

Euphonious Polemic

03-10-2011, 11:42 AM

Hey Bricker, take the blinders off. It's a good look for you and all, but seeing only a tiny, narrow part of the argument is probably bad for you.

Whack-a-Mole

03-10-2011, 11:44 AM

OK. And the Wisconsin legislature passing a law eliminating the ability of Wisconsin public employees to collectively bargain advances to goal of defunding OSHA... how?

It is part of a larger republican assault.

Currently there are measures to kill unions, repeal child labor laws, restrict voting of young people and outright removal of elected representatives by fiat.

I am sure I am missing some but that is more than enough.

In short, it is a concerted effort by republicans to consolidate power among a few and not be bothered by pesky rules or laws.

Oldeb

03-10-2011, 11:44 AM

OK. And the Wisconsin legislature passing a law eliminating the ability of Wisconsin public employees to collectively bargain advances to goal of defunding OSHA... how?

...there's nobody to complain when it happens? And please don't say, "But the public will complain!" The majority of Wisconsin voters were against this bill and they passed it anyway.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 11:46 AM

Please give an example of an improved working enviroment not related to pressure from government laws or worker unions or expected pressure from same.

Sure.

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/10/1014_office_collaborative/source/5.htm

Not seeing much union pressure there, nor any laws requiring ping pong tables. The company did that to make themselves more attractive to workers. Of their own free will.

Unions are being removed and deregulation is a big Republican ideal. On what basis is your belief that OSHA will not be eroded into non-existance in the name of "saving a few dollars here and there" built?

A gratuitous assertion may, in debate, be equally gratuitously denied. It's up to YOU to show the basis for any claim that eliminating OSHA is a Republican plan. Since it's so obviously their goal, I'm sure there must be dozens of references to link to.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 11:49 AM

...there's nobody to complain when it happens? And please don't say, "But the public will complain!" The majority of Wisconsin voters were against this bill and they passed it anyway.

Ay, yet another canard.

This reverence you seem to have for the majority viewpoint -- how far does it go? Because it sure seemed like the majority view didn't mean shit when Prop 8 was being attacked in California.

The public has every right to complain, by voting out the dastardly legislators that did this in the next election.

Are you afraid they won't do that?

jayjay

03-10-2011, 11:49 AM

OK. And the Wisconsin legislature passing a law eliminating the ability of Wisconsin public employees to collectively bargain advances to goal of defunding OSHA... how?

Rick, you are NOT this stupid. Connect those dots. It's not even just about collective bargaining. It's about breaking the back of the unions completely.

Let me help you. Which party is supportive of OSHA, safety regulation, environmental regulation, etc.? The Democrats (generally...there is a corporatist wing of the Dems, too, but we're simplifying for clarity here). Who is the largest supporter of Democrats among the 10 largest political donators? Unions. Destroy unions, destroy Democrats. Destroy Democrats, destroy OSHA, safety regulation, environmental regulation, etc.

40 years ago, there were actually Republicans who were for those things, too. Hell, RICHARD NIXON was for a lot of those things (even if they were more "go along with" than "sincere personal belief"). The Republican Party has changed in the last 40 years...even you have to admit that. In the last 17 years, they've gotten a lot more right-wing. In the last three years, they've gotten a lot crazier. Even relatively moderate Republicans have been voting in lockstep with their Bircher-level colleagues because they're afraid of the jolly bunch of insane idiots with their signs and costumes, and the jolly bunch of ravening mercenaries with a microphone or tv camera. Olympia Snow, for gosh sakes, isn't going to survive her primary fight next year. Nelson Rockefeller would have been ritually crucified at CPAC. If the Republicans didn't make a cottage industry out of mythologizing Reagan, HE wouldn't be right-wing enough for the modern GOP.

Frankly, my opinion is that the Republican party of today is the single worst party anyone who doesn't make $500,000 a year could possibly vote for. Or, for that matter, the single worst party than anyone who isn't white, male, Christian and straight, could possibly vote for.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 11:50 AM

Hey Bricker, take the blinders off. It's a good look for you and all, but seeing only a tiny, narrow part of the argument is probably bad for you.

What's the overall argument? That there's a vast movement of GOP force, that the majority of voters hate, but are too stupid to vote against when given the chance, and it plans to accomplish all these disconnected things?

Seriously -- go ahead and lay out the big picture. Show me what I'm missing.

jayjay

03-10-2011, 11:50 AM

The public has every right to complain, by voting out the dastardly legislators that did this in the next election.

I'm pretty sure we won't have to wait that long.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 11:53 AM

Rick, you are NOT this stupid. Connect those dots. It's not even just about collective bargaining. It's about breaking the back of the unions completely.

Let me help you. Which party is supportive of OSHA, safety regulation, environmental regulation, etc.? The Democrats (generally...there is a corporatist wing of the Dems, too, but we're simplifying for clarity here). Who is the largest supporter of Democrats among the 10 largest political donators? Unions. Destroy unions, destroy Democrats. Destroy Democrats, destroy OSHA, safety regulation, environmental regulation, etc.

40 years ago, there were actually Republicans who were for those things, too. Hell, RICHARD NIXON was for a lot of those things (even if they were more "go along with" than "sincere personal belief"). The Republican Party has changed in the last 40 years...even you have to admit that. In the last 17 years, they've gotten a lot more right-wing. In the last three years, they've gotten a lot crazier. Even relatively moderate Republicans have been voting in lockstep with their Bircher-level colleagues because they're afraid of the jolly bunch of insane idiots with their signs and costumes, and the jolly bunch of ravening mercenaries with a microphone or tv camera. Olympia Snow, for gosh sakes, isn't going to survive her primary fight next year. Nelson Rockefeller would have been ritually crucified at CPAC. If the Republicans didn't make a cottage industry out of mythologizing Reagan, HE wouldn't be right-wing enough for the modern GOP.

Frankly, my opinion is that the Republican party of today is the single worst party anyone who doesn't make $500,000 a year could possibly vote for. Or, for that matter, the single worst party than anyone who isn't white, male, Christian and straight, could possibly vote for.

I'm not white. I don't make $500,000 per year. Admittedly I'm Christian, male, and straight. My wife, when she becomes a citizen, will only fit "Christian" and "straight" and she will most assuredly vote GOP.

And it seems to me that the Log Cabin Republicans were the plaintiffs in the lawsuit that destroyed DADT. Their female plaintiffs don't fit any category you name at all!

Gee, could it be that your opinion is simply that, and that people of good faith can disagree without being evil or stupid?

Whack-a-Mole

03-10-2011, 11:55 AM

What's the overall argument? That there's a vast movement of GOP force, that the majority of voters hate, but are too stupid to vote against when given the chance, and it plans to accomplish all these disconnected things?

Seriously -- go ahead and lay out the big picture. Show me what I'm missing.

Yes the voters are too stupid to vote against them because they are worried about fags marrying somewhere.

jayjay

03-10-2011, 11:56 AM

Gee, could it be that your opinion is simply that, and that people of good faith can disagree without being evil or stupid?

Or it could be that the GOP just hasn't become racist or sexist enough FOR YOU to feel uncomfortable. Yet. The way they're going, give it ten more years.

Euphonious Polemic

03-10-2011, 12:01 PM

Seriously -- go ahead and lay out the big picture. Show me what I'm missing.

Been done and done and done here.

And you are ignoring it.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 12:03 PM

I'm pretty sure we won't have to wait that long.

Did I miss your reply to my offer of a wager?

Bricker

03-10-2011, 12:05 PM

Been done and done and done here.

And you are ignoring it.

I'm denying it.

And for evidence, your side seems to be offering up, "Just LOOK! Can't you see? You're not that stupid, are you?"

(Except for margin, who is offering up little turd pellets similar to rabbit feces, only less pleasant.)

Bricker

03-10-2011, 12:06 PM

Yes the voters are too stupid to vote against them because they are worried about fags marrying somewhere.

So the voters' collective intentions are the Holy Grail of Rightness.... except where they're wrong, the intolerant bastards.

furt

03-10-2011, 12:09 PM

Please give an example of an improved working enviroment not related to pressure from government laws or worker unions or expected pressure from same.Sure.

Stock options
Flexible scheduling
Employee life insurance
Dental
Vision
Employee discounts
Education reimbursement
"Personal" days
Mass transit reimbursement
Casual Friday
Parental leave more than the law requires
Same-sex-partner benefits
Free or subsidised company cafeteria
Employee assistance programs
On-site massages and dry-cleaning pickup
Adoption assistance

Some of those are more common than others, but I've had all of them at various places I've worked.

The history of both paid vacations and employee retirement benefits are complicated, but certainly can't be reduced to "nobody had them, and then the unions/laws stepped in and made them common"

Whack-a-Mole

03-10-2011, 12:11 PM

So the voters' collective intentions are the Holy Grail of Rightness.... except where they're wrong, the intolerant bastards.

Did any of these people campaign on rolling back child labor laws? Killing unions? Restricting student voting rights? Kicking out elected officials by fiat?

AlienVessels

03-10-2011, 12:12 PM

OK. And the Wisconsin legislature passing a law eliminating the ability of Wisconsin public employees to collectively bargain advances to goal of defunding OSHA... how?

You have it wrong. They're both goals and linked because they both attack values held by the opposing party.

http://www.scpr.org/news/2011/03/01/osha-budget-cut-plan-spotlights-regulatory-debate/

They're both attacked as "bad for business".

Darth Nader

03-10-2011, 12:13 PM

margin is a useless waste of oxygenReally? She probably has boobs. You could look at those while she breathes your precious air.

Calm the fuck down, okay?

I''m pretty sure she wouldn't let you, if she knew.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 12:15 PM

Been done and done and done here.

And you are ignoring it.

Truth is, I'm one of the very people on this board who even-handedly applies my principles to the facts, whichever side may benefit from them. Truth is, I'm one of the very people here that's willing to admit error and concede a point. If you had any interest in actually learning something, you'd do what I do: hang out on a board that has a majority opposed to your viewpoint. I don't have an opinion that I can't defend rigorously against attack, because my opinions get tested here all the time.

You laugh at conservatives who don't want to examine opposing views as you sit here in your liberal echo chamber, where everyone congratulates each other for having the correct opinion.

And you look at ME and say I should get it, by osmosis?

Lobohan

03-10-2011, 12:16 PM

Your side of idiots just refused to back down from the claim that the "likely result" of this legislation is a return to the days of no workplace safety rules. It's a "no shit," certainty.

If this were just margin, I'd be bemused and casually dismissive; margin requiring no serious thought. But xenophon41 surprises me.If the rules allowing self defense were rescinded would you find that the likely result would be more assault?

Employers want to get as much productivity out of workers for as little pay as possible. Collective bargaining is the defense workers have against that.

Protip: Just because your side wins, you shouldn't assume it was the right thing against all evidence.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 12:17 PM

Really? She probably has boobs. You could look at those while she breathes your precious air.

Calm the fuck down, okay?

I''m pretty sure she wouldn't let you, if she knew.

How sexist!!

AlienVessels

03-10-2011, 12:18 PM

Sure.

Stock options
Flexible scheduling
Employee life insurance
Dental
Vision
Employee discounts
Education reimbursement
"Personal" days
Mass transit reimbursement
Casual Friday
Parental leave more than the law requires
Same-sex-partner benefits
Free or subsidised company cafeteria
Employee assistance programs
On-site massages and dry-cleaning pickup
Adoption assistance

Some of those are more common than others, but I've had all of them at various places I've worked.

The history of both paid vacations and employee retirement benefits are complicated, but certainly can't be reduced to "nobody had them, and then the unions/laws stepped in and made them common"

You're serious? You think you'd have these benefits if the unions hadn't been fighting long before any of them became options.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen_Tons

According to Travis, the line from the chorus "another day older and deeper in debt" was a phrase often used by his father, a coal miner himself.[1] This and the line "I owe my soul to the company store" is a reference to the truck system and to debt bondage. Under this system workers were not paid cash; rather they were paid with unexchangeable credit vouchers for goods at the company store, usually referred to as scrip. This made it impossible for workers to store up cash savings. Workers also usually lived in company-owned dormitories or houses, the rent for which was automatically deducted from their pay. In the United States the truck system and associated debt bondage persisted until the strikes of the newly-formed United Mine Workers and affiliated unions forced an end to such practices.

I guess they don't teach history in school anymore.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 12:19 PM

If the rules allowing self defense were rescinded would you find that the likely result would be more assault?

Employers want to get as much productivity out of workers for as little pay as possible. Collective bargaining is the defense workers have against that.

Yes, but this bill doesn't eliminate all collective bargaining -- just state government workers' collective bargaining. The maleficent employer you're worried about here is the state government itself.

elucidator

03-10-2011, 12:25 PM

They're only coming for the state workers of Wisconsin? Well, that's a relief, I'm not a state worker in Wisconsin!

Whack-a-Mole

03-10-2011, 12:26 PM

Yes, but this bill doesn't eliminate all collective bargaining -- just state government workers' collective bargaining. The maleficent employer you're worried about here is the state government itself.

The maleficent employer here specifically targeted unions that opposed the governor. Those who supported him are "rewarded" by not being included in this supposedly necessary bill.

Smells like retribution from the employer to me.

Darth Nader

03-10-2011, 12:28 PM

How sexist!!How? Do you think boobs are a bad thing? Do you hate motherhood?

Wait. I am against some boobs right now, actually. Hmm. Very soothing.

elucidator

03-10-2011, 12:32 PM

The maleficent employer here specifically targeted unions that opposed the governor. Those who supported him are "rewarded" by not being included in this supposedly necessary bill.

Smells like retribution from the employer to me.

Those accusations rest on comparatively shaky ground, according to reliable lefty sources I read. My best guess is that he exempted such unions as he did due to their relative popularity amongst the people, and only marginally, if at all, due to their support of him personally.

Since they've all pretty much bailed out on him, the point is moot. We have solid accusations to advance here, I see no reason to include anything remotely shaky.

Sully

03-10-2011, 12:32 PM

Yes, but this bill doesn't eliminate all collective bargaining -- just state government workers' collective bargaining. The maleficent employer you're worried about here is the state government itself.

Yes, the same state government that is now trying to take away the rights of workers and the middle class. They are clearly NOT interested in protecting them.

crowmanyclouds

03-10-2011, 12:38 PM

Republicans say OSHA enacts expensive rules without regard to their effect on business. They've proposed cutting its budget this year by 20 percent, a reduction the director says would be devastating to the agency's efforts to protect worker safety. ...

... Now, Republicans in control of the House are trying to push the pendulum back. As part of their drive to cut about $61 billion from federal spending in the current fiscal year, they've targeted OSHA for a $99 million reduction.

"The Republicans have proposed a 20 percent cut and given [that] half a year's over, that really means a 40 percent cut," OSHA administrator David Michaels says. "It would really have a devastating effect on all of our activities." ...CITE (http://www.npr.org/2011/03/01/134177079/GOP-Looks-To-Make-Cuts-At-OSHA)CMC fnord!
Jeez AlienVessels don't you know that company stores were part of the wonderful benefits package workers got? ;)

Euphonious Polemic

03-10-2011, 12:39 PM

If you had any interest in actually learning something, you'd do what I do: hang out on a board that has a majority opposed to your viewpoint.

I'd love to find one.

Can you suggest one that will not throw me out on my ear if I dare to suggest that perhaps Obama may not have been born in Kenya, or that it's just possible that Palin's musings on geopolitics may not be the smartest stuff, or if I allude to my opinion that publicly funded healthcare is not the same as communism?

Most right leaning boards I have seen seem to take a pretty dim view of diverse opinions. You actually are treated rather well here.

furt

03-10-2011, 12:41 PM

You're serious? You think you'd have these benefits if the unions hadn't been fighting long before any of them became options.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen_Tons

I guess they don't teach history in school anymore.Please, educate me.

How many of those 15 benefits I listed were fought for by unions before companies started offering them?

Banquet Bear

03-10-2011, 12:46 PM

...Bricker, why do you not support the right of workers to collectively negotiate if they so wish?

elbows

03-10-2011, 12:49 PM

So there state becomes a joke and the pubs are exposed as the lying weasels they are. I think it's a good thing. And, I think it will ensure the dems take this state next election. So hey, weasels, keep up the good work!

Euphonious Polemic

03-10-2011, 12:49 PM

...Bricker, why do you not support the right of workers to collectively negotiate if they so wish?

If he starts repeating "because it goes against the public interest", we will know that he has been completely taken over by superslug and his band of witty followers.

AlienVessels

03-10-2011, 12:50 PM

Please, educate me.

How many of those 15 benefits I listed were fought for by unions before companies started offering them?

If unions hadn't broken the company store, we'd have none of them.

Ludovic

03-10-2011, 12:55 PM

I think unions should be like abortions: safe, legal, and rare.

BobLibDem

03-10-2011, 12:58 PM

If unions hadn't broken the company store, we'd have none of them.

Bingo! If you have any benefits where you work, it's because some union guy got his skull busted years ago fighting for them.

margin

03-10-2011, 01:02 PM

I hope it comes with a cape.

Jesus Christ, considering some of the assholes on the board, I hope it comes with a straitjacket.

Lobohan

03-10-2011, 01:06 PM

Yes, but this bill doesn't eliminate all collective bargaining -- just state government workers' collective bargaining. The maleficent employer you're worried about here is the state government itself.I don't know if you're aware of this, but the state government is run by Republicans. And 21st century Republicans want to privatize schools. Drown it in the bathwater, sound familiar? A conservative government can do things a business wouldn't because of ideology. The Tea-Party faction that is running the Republicans today simply don't believe in public anything. They want schools to fail so they can be privatized. It doesn't matter that things would be worse, they refuse to accept reality.

margin

03-10-2011, 01:11 PM

How sexist!!

I'm always amazed at assholes like you. You thnk that jeering at the concept of sexism---which your rich white Republican ass never has to experience----is so witty and winning. Hurr, hurr, hurr, is that the best you can do? Tit jokes and sniggering at sexism? It just makes the dimensions of your vileness apparent. Tell me, do you go around to black people and sneer, "That's racist!"? Reminds me of the time Rush Limbaugh, like the bully he is, thought he was scoring a point off Michael J. Fox, by 'imitating' what he thought was Fox's fakery during the stem cell debates.

And to head off the inevitable Bricker lies and bullshit, I'm going to point out:
1. That your tactics of jeering at what you don't have to experience are reprehensible;
2. that they bear more than a slight resemblance to the contempt that Rush Limbaugh showed when he 'imitated' Michael J. Fox's disability, which he felt was faked;
3. and that by drawing a line between the two I am pointing out that not only do you and Limbaugh share the same tactic, you share the same viewpoint and party, and that your tactics are vile. And so are you.

But I guess it must be stressful defending murderers and rapists while attacking poor black people whose only crime is to wish to vote without your express approval.

xenophon41

03-10-2011, 01:14 PM

...the point is moot. We have solid accusations to advance here, I see no reason to include anything remotely shaky.

Now wait just a dang minute, bub! We'll have no insurgence in the liberal echo chamber.

You will be assimilated!

jayjay

03-10-2011, 01:14 PM

Did I miss your reply to my offer of a wager?

You might try looking for it in the thread in which you actually posted the offer. For convenience's sake, I'll repeat it here.

I don't gamble. Hell, I don't even play the lottery. That doesn't mean my confidence in my prediction is weak. It just means that I don't feel the need to play testosterone-laden one-upmanship games over it.

jayjay

03-10-2011, 01:16 PM

I'm always amazed at assholes like you. You thnk that jeering at the concept of sexism---which your rich white Republican ass

While I'm mostly on your side in the ideological debate here, you should be informed that Bricker isn't white. He's Hispanic.

Sully

03-10-2011, 01:17 PM

Bricker

03-10-2011, 01:17 PM

...Bricker, why do you not support the right of workers to collectively negotiate if they so wish?

Because:

In 2010, Megan Sampson was named an Outstanding First Year Teacher in Wisconsin. A week later, she got a layoff notice from the Milwaukee Public Schools. Why would one of the best new teachers in the state be one of the first let go? Because her collective-bargaining contract requires staffing decisions to be made based on seniority.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 01:21 PM

You might try looking for it in the thread in which you actually posted the offer. For convenience's sake, I'll repeat it here.

I don't gamble. Hell, I don't even play the lottery. That doesn't mean my confidence in my prediction is weak. It just means that I don't feel the need to play testosterone-laden one-upmanship games over it.

So the consequence of being wrong for you is... ?

See, I mention this because I once started a thread reminding a poster of how he predicted that, if Virginia amended its constitution to forbid same-sex marriage, domestic violence victims would suffer -- the change would supposedly forbid the state from prosecuting domestic violence claims against unmarried but cohabitating partners. he didn't bet on his claim either, but stridently insisted he was right.

Years went by, and I started a thread pointing out that his confident prediction was wrong.

And what do you suppose the result was?

Bricker

03-10-2011, 01:22 PM

I'm always amazed at assholes like you. You thnk that jeering at the concept of sexism---which your rich white Republican ass never has to experience----is so witty and winning.

How racist!

I'm Hispanic, genius. I grew up in poverty. My dad came here from El Salvador with nothing.

Jack Batty

03-10-2011, 01:22 PM

Someone on the internet ignored you? Oh the humanity.

Sully

03-10-2011, 01:23 PM

Because:

Nice, using Scott Walker's speech. You must be a huge fan.

margin

03-10-2011, 01:27 PM

While I'm mostly on your side in the ideological debate here, you should be informed that Bricker isn't white. He's Hispanic.

And he's a Republican? That's....special. it actually makes it worse. If he's experienced racism against Hispanics, then to turn around and be as sexist as he is is extraordinarily hypocritical.

margin

03-10-2011, 01:30 PM

How racist!

I'm Hispanic, genius. I grew up in poverty. My dad came here from El Salvador with nothing.

Gee, how would I know that? You side with rich white men, you defend rich white men, and you dish out discrimination an awful lot for somebody who must have experienced some of it himself. Reminds of Clarence Thomas, pulling the ladder up after he got his. You are the perfect conservative.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 01:33 PM

Nice, using Scott Walker's speech. You must be a huge fan.

Ad hominem. This comment doesn't rebut the argument I made.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 01:41 PM

Gee, how would I know that? You side with rich white men, you defend rich white men, and you dish out discrimination an awful lot for somebody who must have experienced some of it himself. Reminds of Clarence Thomas, pulling the ladder up after he got his. You are the perfect conservative.

Yes, I have experienced discrimination. Not so much these days, but when I was younger, I absolutely experienced discriminatory actions and attitudes.

And you know what I did? I ran right to the government and screamed, "Waaah! protect me from these meanies!"

Oh, no, wait. That wasn't me.

I took what my dad told me to heart: that the best way to handle that is to be better. That I might have to work harder to get somewhere. But that wasn't bad -- it was good. It meant I trained with weights on, as it were, while others ran without them. And at the end of the day, I was stronger as a result.

I wish this had been my line, but it was actually my brother's, after he pushed back against a teacher's ignorant comment. I warned him about the consequences, and he said with perfect calmness, "If he doesn't give me an A, he won;t be able to justify giving anyone in that class an A."

As you might imagine, he didn't plan to get his A by threatening a lawsuit or a sit-in. He got his A by being the best in the class, period.

Experiencing discrimination was what MADE me a conservative. It made me realize that the answer is not to cower like a victim, waiting for the generous gringo to extend a helping hand, to lift me a little bit (but not above him). Fuck that. I lifted myself, as high as I wanted and could. Personally.

That's why I'm a conservative. I didn't need your fucking ladder. I climbed up the wall.

xenophon41

03-10-2011, 01:41 PM

Because:
In 2010, Megan Sampson was named an Outstanding First Year Teacher in Wisconsin. A week later, she got a layoff notice from the Milwaukee Public Schools. Why would one of the best new teachers in the state be one of the first let go? Because her collective-bargaining contract requires staffing decisions to be made based on seniority.

So, Bricker, because I'm not a douchebag, I'm assuming your objection to collective bargaining rights of public workers is not based solely on that one anecdote, or on the collected speeches of Scott Walker, but you're citing the story as an example of how unions go 'against the public interest' so to speak. But you haven't actually explained how the example works against the principle of collective bargaining.

I'd like to know your specific objections, so that we can address the correct questions: whether seniority considerations are unique to union contracts and whether they have any utility for the greater public good and/or union members themselves, or whether staffing decisions are ever appropriate aspects of contractual terms and if so whether that is only conditionally appropriate depending on how the contract is negotiated.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 01:44 PM

And what do you suppose the result was?

Someone on the internet ignored you? Oh the humanity.

No, far from it.

Instead, I got lots of comments about how I should just let it go. It was over -- did I have to be right all the time? Did I keep a list? Wow, obsess much? Who cares?

AlienVessels

03-10-2011, 01:47 PM

Experiencing discrimination was what MADE me a conservative. It made me realize that the answer is not to cower like a victim, waiting for the generous gringo to extend a helping hand, to lift me a little bit (but not above him). Fuck that. I lifted myself, as high as I wanted and could. Personally.

That's why I'm a conservative. I didn't need your fucking ladder. I climbed up the wall.

Yes and you were lucky. There are a ton of people that worked just as hard as you that just managed to treat water.

It' the same old "I won because I kicked ass, they lost because they were lazy" argument. Because of course, if it weren't that way and hard work didn't guarantee your advancement...

Bricker

03-10-2011, 01:57 PM

Yes and you were lucky. There are a ton of people that worked just as hard as you that just managed to treat water.

It' the same old "I won because I kicked ass, they lost because they were lazy" argument. Because of course, if it weren't that way and hard work didn't guarantee your advancement...

You know what that reminds me of?

A had a friend in college who I helped move one day. As I was loading her trunk, I noticed her spare tire was flat. "Hey," I said, "Did you know your spare tire is flat?"

"Yeah, I know," she said. "I'll have to fix that one of these days."

A year later, she had a job interview for an on-campus position. I did too. There were filling three slots for a pretty menial job. I think there were about forty applicants.

I got the job. She didn't -- in fact, she missed the interview. Why? She got a flat tire. Someone immediately stopped to help her (she was pretty cute, as it happens, and though I wasn't there I suspect she had to wait about thirteen seconds for that assistance. He volunteered to change her tire, but... the spare was flat.

"Man, I have the worst luck!" she told me.

gonzomax

03-10-2011, 01:57 PM

Wow, how very generous. Something akin to someone giving you a quarter as they are stealing your wallet. Yes, we know you are now working 60 hours a week so we can keep laying people off and you won't say shit because we will then kick your ass to the curb, but hey, we have free coffee...

The list does not include the safer conditions in workplaces and child labor laws.

Duke

03-10-2011, 02:00 PM

jayjay

03-10-2011, 02:00 PM

So the consequence of being wrong for you is... ?

Wisconsin remains a state whose government is having a fire sale, giving away everything to the Kochs. That's definitely more than enough punishment.

Some of us consider real-world penalties to be painful enough without adding silly games on top of them.

AlienVessels

03-10-2011, 02:06 PM

You know what that reminds me of?

A had a friend in college who I helped move one day. As I was loading her trunk, I noticed her spare tire was flat. "Hey," I said, "Did you know your spare tire is flat?"

"Yeah, I know," she said. "I'll have to fix that one of these days."

A year later, she had a job interview for an on-campus position. I did too. There were filling three slots for a pretty menial job. I think there were about forty applicants.

I got the job. She didn't -- in fact, she missed the interview. Why? She got a flat tire. Someone immediately stopped to help her (she was pretty cute, as it happens, and though I wasn't there I suspect she had to wait about thirteen seconds for that assistance. He volunteered to change her tire, but... the spare was flat.

"Man, I have the worst luck!" she told me.

And I'd be real impressed with that if all your friends with flat tires were obviously negligent.

But you know when asked, a lot of very successful people have said that they attribute their success to hard work, keeping at it, AND luck.

Tom Scud

03-10-2011, 02:07 PM

Bricker

03-10-2011, 02:07 PM

It always amuses me how Bricker, who admits to posting to the Dope from work a few times*, chalks up his success to constant, devoted, single-minded effort. Well done, lad! Never in the history of hard work has anyone ever shown such hard work.

*OK, about 50,000 times.

28,000 posts, yes.

That is a lot.

Er... spread out over ELEVEN AND A HALF YEARS.

Somehow, that doesn't seem to be as dramatic, does it?

And I assure you that my current employer is very happy with my level and quality of work.

Besides, they don't dare fire me! I'm Hispanic!

Whack-a-Mole

03-10-2011, 02:09 PM

Experiencing discrimination was what MADE me a conservative. It made me realize that the answer is not to cower like a victim, waiting for the generous gringo to extend a helping hand, to lift me a little bit (but not above him). Fuck that. I lifted myself, as high as I wanted and could. Personally.

That's why I'm a conservative. I didn't need your fucking ladder. I climbed up the wall.

Ah, so, discrimination is tolerable and the government should ignore it because it is good for those who are discriminated against?

That about the gist of it?

xenophon41

03-10-2011, 02:10 PM

Whenever I hear "I lifted myself personally" I wonder what exactly the protagonist lifted himself by, and up onto what exactly he scrambled. I suspect whatever prominences and outcroppings of the social landscape our hero grasped and scrabbled over to get to his higher ground owe their existence to at least a few weepy, crybaby liberal 'victims' -assuming the self bootstrapping occurred legally that is.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 02:11 PM

And I'd be real impressed with that if all your friends with flat tires were obviously negligent.

But you know when asked, a lot of very successful people have said that they attribute their success to hard work, keeping at it, AND luck.

I expect the dramatically successful people -- the CEOs, the A-list actors, and so forth, would say that, because to get from the middle ranks to the top requires luck.

To be solidly successful as a upper-mid-tier performer? No, that is reachable without luck. Or, to put a finer point on it, it's by people who make their own luck. You would say I'm lucky I had a spare that has air in it. Maybe so -- but I check my spare every time I put gas in the car. I check my oil every time I put gas in my car. So the fact that I don't find myself seizing the cylinders one day because my "Check Engine" light was blown out is "lucky."

Except that I made that luck happen.

Sorry, I reject the random universe bullshit. You make your own luck.

Bricker

03-10-2011, 02:13 PM

Bricker

03-10-2011, 02:14 PM

Ah, so, discrimination is tolerable and the government should ignore it because it is good for those who are discriminated against?

That about the gist of it?

I didn't say that. I said that I, personally, have experienced discrimination and that I, personally, dealt with it without involving the government.

GIGObuster

03-10-2011, 02:14 PM

How racist!

I'm Hispanic, genius. I grew up in poverty. My dad came here from El Salvador with nothing.

Funny, mine too.

The reality does remain that many opportunities were open by people that did not wait for the government to give them opportunities, they protested and fought for them, and was not only against private industry, but to government as well.

Euphonious Polemic

03-10-2011, 02:15 PM

You know what that reminds me of?

A had a friend in college who I helped move one day. As I was loading her trunk, I noticed her spare tire was flat. "Hey," I said, "Did you know your spare tire is flat?"

"Yeah, I know," she said. "I'll have to fix that one of these days."

A year later, she had a job interview for an on-campus position. I did too. There were filling three slots for a pretty menial job. I think there were about forty applicants.

I got the job. She didn't -- in fact, she missed the interview. Why? She got a flat tire. Someone immediately stopped to help her (she was pretty cute, as it happens, and though I wasn't there I suspect she had to wait about thirteen seconds for that assistance. He volunteered to change her tire, but... the spare was flat.

"Man, I have the worst luck!" she told me.

<Dons BrickerBlinders>

So you're saying that everyone who does not succeed has failed because they had a flat tire? Do you have a cite for that?
I thought not.

<BB off>

Duke

03-10-2011, 02:16 PM

28,000 posts, yes.

That is a lot.

Er... spread out over ELEVEN AND A HALF YEARS.

Somehow, that doesn't seem to be as dramatic, does it?

Just for shits and giggles, I looked at your last 500 posts. 500 posts ago was February 10 for you, and that was 28 days ago. So that's 17.8 posts a day. Even if you average three minutes to read a thread and compose and type a post, that's an hour a day, every day for the past month. And some days, you posted a hell of a lot more: February 11, for example, you made 53 posts. And, yes, that was a work day. All but six of those posts were made from 9-5.

And I assure you that my current employer is very happy with my level and quality of work.

Sorry, I don't think someone who spends hours a day on a message board is doing a good job. Just me, though. And I think most employers would agree with me. You don't work hard, you're lucky to work in an office that looks the other way, frankly. Seeing the likes of you trumpet the values of "hard work" is base hypocrisy.

Sully

03-10-2011, 02:17 PM

Ah, so, discrimination is tolerable and the government should ignore it because it is good for those who are discriminated against?

That about the gist of it?

Makes them tougher and work harder donchaknow...

GIGObuster

03-10-2011, 02:20 PM

I didn't say that. I said that I, personally, have experienced discrimination and that I, personally, dealt with it without involving the government.

By this time most of the fights to change discriminatory laws or corporations were done, of course it is easy to assume that the giants you are standing on to make your self sufficient act of today be possible can be ignored.

Whack-a-Mole

03-10-2011, 02:25 PM

I didn't say that. I said that I, personally, have experienced discrimination and that I, personally, dealt with it without involving the government.

And you were dismissive of people who run to the government a plead for protection from the meanies.

The implication being what they should do is suck it up, use it to give themselves strength and work harder. If they fail it is their fault and no less than they deserve and crying foul just proves how weak they are.

Of course, you are almost certainly a beneficiary of liberal gringo helping hands. If left to the likes of the Tea Party I am willing to bet your dad would have never made it to the US (at least not legally) and you would not have been allowed to attend schools and by extension a university to become a successful lawyer.

You'd be lucky to be a migrant farm hand at this point.

By supporting the right you are pulling the ladder up behind you. Future people will not have the chance to achieve what your dad and his family did because the republicans will prevent it if they can.

AlienVessels

03-10-2011, 02:25 PM

I expect the dramatically successful people -- the CEOs, the A-list actors, and so forth, would say that, because to get from the middle ranks to the top requires luck.

To be solidly successful as a upper-mid-tier performer? No, that is reachable without luck. Or, to put a finer point on it, it's by people who make their own luck. You would say I'm lucky I had a spare that has air in it. Maybe so -- but I check my spare every time I put gas in the car. I check my oil every time I put gas in my car. So the fact that I don't find myself seizing the cylinders one day because my "Check Engine" light was blown out is "lucky."

Except that I made that luck happen.

Sorry, I reject the random universe bullshit. You make your own luck.

Of course. Helps the old ego out if your success is all your own. And you generally do have to be swinging at the time the opportunity comes by. It is of course poor logic to assume that failure is completely the fault of those that don't make it to the next rung up.

The real world is musical chairs in a pyramid. You have to be in play to win, but a number of factors dictate success. They include fast reactions, keeping your eyes open and an open chair being near when the music stops.

Of course, that assumes that everyone is playing by the rules. The person playing the music doesn't have a preference. People don't knock other people aside when going for the chair etc etc. It also assumes every has an equal start.

None of these assumptions are correct of course.

Sully

03-10-2011, 02:28 PM

And you were dismissive of people who run to the government a plead for protection from the meanies.

The implication being what they should do is suck it up, use it to give themselves strength and work harder. If they fail it is their fault and no less than they deserve and crying foul just proves how weak they are.

Of course, you are almost certainly a beneficiary of liberal gringo helping hands. If left to the likes of the Tea Party I am willing to bet your dad would have never made it to the US (at least not legally) and you would not have been allowed to attend schools and by extension a university to become a successful lawyer.

You'd be lucky to be a migrant farm hand at this point.

By supporting the right you are pulling the ladder up behind you. Future people will not have the chance to achieve what your dad and his family did because the republicans will prevent it if they can.

Nicely stated.

Sully

03-10-2011, 02:31 PM

Another genius...

During a speech on Wednesday, Wisconsin's Secretary of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection referred to the protests in the Capitol as a "holocaust in a horror story." Speaking about the freshmen legislators in Wisconsin, Secretary Ben Brancel said, "They came to town with a lot of ideas and a lot of concepts they could really work on and then they got stuck in the middle of a holocaust in a horror story that was going on in town...as far as people using the building all night long and some shenanigans."

After his remarks, Brancel told a reporter that holocaust was "a bad word." "It should have been total confusion in the Capitol," he said. "It was not an appropriate word to use in the context of which I used it, and I better go back to English school."

Beyond the obvious.... English school?

elucidator

03-10-2011, 02:32 PM

....That's why I'm a conservative. I didn't need your fucking ladder. I climbed up the wall.

Good for you. Ambition, talent, and determination, all rock solid American values. What about the rest? What about the people who are not so gifted as yourself. What happened to the guy who was just as ambitious and hard-working as yourself, but not as smart? What happened to him?

You're smart. I know that, you know that. So am I, you may have noticed. I didn't earn smart, as best I can tell. How about you? I tend towards the morality that says "To those to whom much is given, much is expected". You defend the one that says "Yeee-haw, if you got it, flaunt it, git in there and grab it with both hands".

But smart isn't a virtue, smart is a characteristic, no more a virtue than being tall. To debase such a gift in order to construct elaborate rationales to defend the indefensible...well, one could do better, don't you think?

Only rats win rat races.