The age of an adult

[aaronp]

Here’s a question for you. Why is the age of 18 considered the beginning of adulthood, and where did this custom come from?

It seems to me that adulthood would be better placed closer to puberty, perhaps around 15 or 16 years old. The high school years are basically a time of idleness, and rebellion, so there's not a huge loss. By this point most people have already assembled some sort of identity. Also, as we all know it's quite common for a person in this age range to be tried as an adult, therefore courts recognize this age as being self-accountable. Heck, as I remember many of the guys in my senior class in high school were already growing full beards. So, what’s the deal?

[Monty]

Aaron: The age of adulthood is fixed by law at different ages for different countries/states/territories/what have you.

A few quick examples:

- United States: 18 years, although one must still wait until one's 21 years for certain rights/privileges, and may also receive certain privileges prior to 18 years (such as driver's license)

- Japan: 20 years

- Iran: Adulthood decreed to be at the onset of puberty. As puberty can commence at a quite early age, some in Iran today feel that a 9 year old girl who's entered puberty is ripe for marriage.

Do you not see the problems with using puberty as a criteria?

[E1skeptic]

Are you feeling frustrated because they asked you for your ID last time you tried to sneak into a bar? Or is this a legitimate question?

[Rich Barr]

The age at which one is considered an adult in the US used to be 21 for the most part--probably just because it's the beginning of one's third decade. Now it's mostly 18--probably because it's approximately the time most people get out of high school.

Any age-number for adulthood (or anything else) is arbitrary. There are people far younger than 18 who are really adults. There are people far older than 18--or 21, for that matter--who are NOT adults, and some of 'em never will be. But short of administing some kind of test to everybody in the country--starting at the age of 10, perhaps--there's no way of figuring these things out. A line has to be drawn somewhere (probably) and 18 more or less works.

My own question is this: if we are going to allow 18-year-olds to run the country (vote) and run around with artillery (be in the military), how can we then say they are too immature to drink alcohol responsibly until 21 (as opposed to the drunks at every older age)?

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Rich Barr
massivemaple@hotmail.com
AOL Instant Messenger: Hrttannl

[Jophiel]

My own question is this: if we are going to allow 18-year-olds to run the country (vote) and run around with artillery (be in the military), how can we then say they are too immature to drink alcohol responsibly until 21 (as opposed to the drunks at every older age)?
Simple.. I've seen folks under 21 get drunk and on average, they get stupider than those over 21. I'm sure there's exceptions, but if you ask me if I want to attend an evening having drinks with 25+ year olds or 18 year olds, I'd have to put my money on the former and thus avoid getting vomitted on or my car keyed.

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"I guess it is possible for one person to make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn't."

[TubaDiva]

For those of you who didn't live through this discussion on the AOL Straight Dope Message Board, you do not know why the term ageist inspires such dread.

I hope you're not about to find out.

your humble TubaDiva/SDStaffDiv
Finding new meaning in "go away, kid, you bother me."

[Satan]

Depends on the culture and what we're asking of them. Sure, there is hypocrisy in some cultures, such as ours, but that is another argument altogether.

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Yer pal,
Satan

[Mac]

I tried to explain this to my 16 yr old son once. He didn't like I had to say.
You become an adult when you take responsibility for yourself and your actions.
A boy becomes a man the day the other men around him see him as a man and start referring to him as a man, not at any arbitrary age.
But thats just my 2 cents.

[mangeorge]

"My own question is this: if we are going to allow 18-year-olds to run the country (vote) and run around with artillery (be in the military), how can we then say they are too immature to drink alcohol responsibly until 21 (as opposed to the drunks at every older age)?"
---Rich Barr
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I'm quoting you too, Rich. :)
When I was in NYC, in the late 60's, the legal age for alchohol was 18. My understanding is that it has since been raised to 21. I'm wondering if anyone who was around (in New York) for the change has seen any significant difference in alchohol related problems.
Peace, mangeorge

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Work like you don't need the money.....
Love like you've never been hurt.....
Dance like nobody's watching! ....(Paraphrased)

[funneefarmer]

I believe it went from 18 to 19 to 21 back in the '80's. When I graduated HS in 87 the drinking age was 21. When my cousin graduated in '82 I believe it was 19 (though it could have 18, not quite sure). I don't believe the change in the drinking age changed the incidence of teenage drinking. When I was that age it wasn't that uncommon to go to a party and have lots of beer, he!! it wasn't even that hard to find at home for most of my friends. I think that police have tightened down the incidence of drunk driving. Anyways a while back the federal gov't tied road money to a drinking age of 21 and pretty much forced (IIRC) all the drinking ages in the country to 21. By the way, that cousin I mentioned who grad. in '82 was killed in a DWI accident in '87, I was a pall bearer. Changing the drinking age hasn't changed the incidences of DWI to that great of an extent but heavier enforcement, fines, jail time etc. I think have done the most good toward lowering DWI's.

I certainly think adulthood is different for different people but I think 18 is a good legal definition. I certainly see many 15 and 16 yr. olds who I would call men/women simply because of their level of responsibility and willingness to work.

[Mac]

As an instructor at a military technical school five had to deal with quite a number of drunks. By far the people who were underage did the most stupid and sometimes things. Here are just a few examples:
1) The guy who got drunk decided to walk to a waffle house and is run over by another drunk.
2) The DUI's
3) The guy who drinks so much that he gets alcohol poisoning and has to go to the hospital.
4) The DUI's
5) The girl who had just a couple of beers and was talked into going to a hotel room for a couple more, with 12 count them 12 guy's. Nothing happened to her but a really dangerous move on her part.
6) The other DUI's.
7) The fights out in the parking lot between people who are good friends.
8) Did I mention the DUI's?
9) The people who black out and can't remember where they parked their car last night.
10) The guy who thought it would be funny to pull the fire alarm at 0300. He knew those pull boxes' we use will squirt blue ink all over your hand. All he had to do is wear gloves for a couple days, right? It was August!

These were just a few right off the top of my head that I have seen personally. As for the people who were 21 and older the stupidest thing I've seen them do yet was buy the beer. So do we need to lower the age again NO! Does the military need an exemption to the drinking age NO! We have enough problems to deal with already.

****Gets down off soap box****

Ok there I have said my opinion thanks.

[aaronp]

No, I'm serious about the question. I was curious about this after reflecting back on high school one day and thinking of how ridiculously wasteful it was. Then I started thinking about the trend in courts to prosecute 15 and 16 year olds as adults. There seems to be a lot of ethical and moral debates over the court issue, so my natural reaction was to suggest that turning the age of adult back a few years would be an easy solution.

As someone else pointed out, adulthood is generally a cultural phenomenon. Not only does this rite of passage happen at different times in different geographical areas, but many pre-industrialized countries recognize this closer to puberty than western nations. I just wanted to know the background on this. Specifically, in the U.S., was it a custom that existed since independence, or was it a reaction to post-industrialization?

Anyway, as I remember, most teenagers generally accept their identity before the age of 18. That doesn't mean they don't have self-conflict, which I know lasts at least into the late 20s. But as far as my perceptions are worth, those of my peers who have already achieved some degree of success
were already success-minded at 15. The flip-side also seems valid for my experiences. So, a possible argument that 15 year olds having the burden of more responsibility could inhibit their maturity is invalid if my experiences hold to the general population.

As for the drinking issue, well as I remember, it was fashionable to drink in high school for two reasons. One, alcohol was forbidden and therefore was seductively interesting. Two, there really wasn't too much else to do except drink and party. Maturity doesn't really fit into the issue too much. If someone's old enough to work, have sex, and even kill another member of society, then they're old enough to be intoxicated if they choose.

[handy]

Probably because by 18 in the US a person has completed their education, have to get a job, & have complete physical maturity & can get in the army.

Very old word, that:
2adult noun (1658)
: one that is adult; esp : a human being after an age (as 21) specified by law
adult•like \e-"delt-'lik\ adjective

(C)1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

[mangeorge]

"some in Iran today feel that a 9 year old girl who's entered puberty is ripe for marriage."
---Monty
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I've worked with a couple of Iranian men, and my understanding is that marraige of very young girls is pretty much ceremonial. The marriage is real, and binding, but consumation is reserved for much later, when she is more mature. Early to mid teens, I believe.
Anyone have the facts about this?
Peace,
mangeorge

[Rich Barr]

***Jophiel: {{I've seen folks under 21 get drunk and on average, they get stupider than those over 21. I'm sure there's exceptions, but if you ask me if I want to attend an evening having drinks with 25+ year olds or 18 year olds, I'd have to put my money on the former and thus avoid getting vomitted on or my car keyed.}}

My own experiences don't show this. Indeed, the stupidist drunks I've seen have tended to be those well over 21--well over 30, in some cases. (I assume they were just as stupid at 18, but I doubt they could have been much MORE stupid.)

***TubaDiva: {{For those of you who didn't live through this discussion on the AOL Straight Dope Message Board, you do not know why the term ageist inspires such dread.}}

I'm relatively new, so I didn't. And I don't think I am one--I'm 35, and my circle of friends ranges from 13 to 50. (And, yes, the 13-year-old is a true friend, not just some kid that I tolerate.)

***Mac: {{You become an adult when you take responsibility for yourself and your actions.}}

But there are plenty of people who NEVER do this--right up to and including the 50 or 51-year-old President of the United States. This definition works in theory--indeed, it's pretty much what I was trying to get across before--but legally it won't fly.

(From a later post): {{3) The guy who drinks so much that he gets alcohol poisoning and has to go to the hospital.}}

There was just a case of that at Penn State...and the yahoo in question was celebrating her 21st birthday.

{{8) Did I mention the DUI's?}}

Every single DUI case--including the ones who managed to make it home without getting caught--that I personally know of involved people well over 21.

{{So do we need to lower the age again NO! Does the military need an exemption to the drinking age NO! We have enough problems to deal with already.}}

Ok, but you could make the point then that the drinking age should be RAISED--to 25, to 30, to whatever--or that alcohol should be banned entirely. No, I'm not a tea-totaler, and I don't advocate this. My point is that if we are going to have 18-year-olds help run the country (vote) and defend the country--and be subject to conscription under certain circumstances--I can't see why we should then turn around and say they are two immature to drink. A lot of them ARE too immature to drink, but so are a lot of other people.

I grew up in a rural area, and one of the things I observed was this: instead of drinking in a bar, where there was at least the possibility of some control being exercised, the 18/19/20-year-olds did their drinking in cars parked in fields or gravel pits or wherever. They ended the evening parked in the middle of nowhere--they HAD to drive to get home, and there was nobody around to observe that they were all far too blitzed to do that. I personally would rather have them in the bars. (Yeah, they weren't supposed to have booze, but it's not very hard to come up with. Yeah, you could say they were immature to operate that way--and you'd be right--but that doesn't change the fact that they DID and do operate that way.)

***mangeorge: {{When I was in NYC, in the late 60's, the legal age for alchohol was 18. My understanding is that it has since been raised to 21.}}

Yeah, as funneefarmer noted, it went from 18 to 19 in the early '80s, and then to 21 when the feds forced the issue. I have no idea what the significance of 19 was--my guess is that it was a response to some well-publicized accident involving a liquored-up 18-year-old. This was also the period when the law was changed to make bars close at 2:00 AM--I understand it had been 4:00 AM or 5:00 AM before that.

I don't know what age for drinking was most common before the feds got involved. I grew up in Pennsylvania, where the drinking age was always 21. I was in the District of Columbia once when I was 20, and found they had a split age--to buy beer it was 18, and to buy hard liquor or drinks containing it was 21 (I don't know where wine fell on this scale). I assume that most states had an 18-year-old drinking age back then, but that's just a WAG on my part.

***aaronp: {{As someone else pointed out, adulthood is generally a cultural phenomenon. Not only does this rite of passage happen at different times in different geographical areas, but many pre-industrialized
countries recognize this closer to puberty than western nations.}}

It's interesting to note that while almost every US jurisdiction has an minimum age for marriage of 18 without parental consent (the exceptions are Mississippi, which has an age of 17 for males and 15 (yes, 15) for females, Nebraska, which is 19, and Puerto Rico, which is 21) there are a lot of differences in the ages WITH parental (or judicial) consent. The most common age is 16, but there are at least eight states that have lower minimum ages (even states that don't have lower minimums often grant exceptions if the female is pregnant or has borne a child). Two states--Massachusetts and Kansas--have a minimum age of 12 (yes, 12) for females and 14 for males. (Marriage is one of the few areas left where laws have split ages by gender.) Two states--California and Mississippi--technically have no minimum ages.

These laws go back aways, of course, but they are still on the books. They're used occasionally, too--last year there was a news report of a 29-year-old male who got his 13-year-old girfriend pregnant, and married her under their state's (Maryland, I think) pregnancy exception.

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Rich Barr
massivemaple@hotmail.com
AOL Instant Messenger: Hrttannl

[Pete]

There's been a movement to get rid of high school altogether. These people feel it is a pointless time when young adults learn how to be irresponsible, instead of being forced to grow up in the "real world."



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I don't know who first said "everyone's a critic," but I think it's a really stupid saying.

[John W. Kennedy]

As a practical matter, the age of adulthood for most purposes in the USA was 21 until the early 70's, when protests over the Vietnam draft caused it to be put back to 18, so draftees could vote.

Drunk-driving deaths soared. A special exception for drinking went in very quickly.

The traditional explanation for 21 was that it was the age your body could carry full armor. I have no idea how solid that is.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[TubaDiva]

Yeah, Pete, damn straight!

That's what college is for!

your humble TubaDiva

[Monty]

Rich: when you say that California technically has no minimum age, I trust you're referring to the pregnancy exception. Age of Consent in this State is 18 years of age for both sexes.

[Rich Barr]

***Monty: {{Rich: when you say that California technically has no minimum age, I trust you're referring to the pregnancy exception. Age of Consent in this State is 18 years of age for both sexes.}}

No, Monty, that's not what I mean. Age of consent is a different matter. For instance, the minimum age to marry for a female with parental consent in Kansas is 12. I don't know for sure, but I doubt the age of consent is 12.

I meant what I said quite literally--in California there is no statutory minimum age to marry with parental (or judicial) consent. I have no idea what actually happens in practice, but in theory you could marry a six-year-old. (Not that I'd advise trying it.)

And marriage overrides age of consent. Sex with an individual below the age of consent is considered statutory rape--that person cannot legally consent to sex, regardless of whether he/she wants to or not, and regardless of whether that person is in fact mature enough to make that choice. But the rules for married people are different--a married 14-year-old CAN consent to sex with his/her spouse, even if AOC is 18.

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Rich Barr
massivemaple@hotmail.com
AOL Instant Messenger: Hrttannl

[Monty]

Rich: I forgot for a moment there that marriage is considered to be "emancipating" for minors and thus makes them adults for the purposes of the marriage and its attendant events (such as coitus).

[mangeorge]

"a married 14-year-old CAN consent to sex with his/her spouse, even if AOC is 18."
---Rich Barr
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How about with someone not his/her spouse? I think yes, but I'm not sure.
Peace,
mangeorge

[NanoByte]

Well, I don't see anything to aaronp's assumptions and line of argument. Why are we supposed to accept that people in the military are stable adults? They have always seemed less so, on average, than those not in the military. The draft or acceptance age for the military wasn't set on the basis of responsible adulthood, but rather on the physical ability to fight. (I guess that's the basis for electing governors in Minnesota also.) On average, fighters are not particularly responsible.

I was curious about this after reflecting back on high school one day and thinking of how ridiculously wasteful it was.

What does that say? You were adult all during high school, and high school is for children? Or there was no way they could've put any sense in a brain like mine during my high school years (and they probably never will be able to?)?

Then I started thinking about the trend in courts to prosecute 15 and 16 year olds as adults. There seems to be a lot of ethical and moral debates over the court issue, so my natural reaction was to suggest that turning the age of adult back a few years would be an easy solution.

You don't want to consider that trial of a minor as adult intentionally rests on facts of the crime that indicate responsibly recognized malice in the particular offender, not a society-wide earlier maturation in youthful criminals? Not that there couldn't be an element of this.


Anyway, as I remember, most teenagers generally accept their identity before the age of 18.

"Accept their identity"? Kids don't accept their identity? And those that are to go on to college to prepare for a future profession accept their full identity before entering college? It seems to me reasonably stable people always have an identity; they just modify it from one time to the next to varying degrees (including college degrees).

That doesn't mean they don't have self-conflict, which I know lasts at least into the late 20s.

I'd say most people don't have a lot of self-conflict at any age, and those that have a lot of it have it at a lot of ages. I don't see how you can define 'adulthood' on that basis.

. . .those of my peers who have already achieved some degree of success were already success-minded at 15.

'Success-minded'? Define that. Five-year-olds often want to be President.

. . .it was fashionable to drink in high school for two reasons. One, alcohol was forbidden and therefore was seductively interesting.

So you're saying the high school norm is that whatever is forbidden is interesting? I never saw it that way.

Two, there really wasn't too much else to do except drink and party.

Yeah, they locked you in a room full of liquor and party decorations. . .and what else could you do? They forbade your going to the library and you never checked out any other local groups/institutions/facilities / natural environment or hobbies.

Maturity doesn't really fit into the issue too much.

Yeah, I mean, it's only part of the definition of "adulthood", which is what you included in your "issue".

If someone's old enough to work, have sex, and even kill another member of society, then they're old enough to be intoxicated if they choose.

Of course. . .if I kill someone at the age of 6, they should give me all the booze I ask for, so I can more efficiently become a serial killer. (Can't you tell what a fan I am of Aaron's brand of logic.) There are statistics on how alcohol affects brains -- or different ages, genetics, etc., independent of all the particular nice and not-so-nice activities and talents of various individuals. Hey, if I'm a musical prodigy at 4, I should drink wine 6 times a day. . .in order to play more naturally. If I'm a perfect shot at the rifle range at 10, booze me up and send me packing to school or church to try some shots on trickier targets.

Well, being a fraternity drunk never appealed to me. I used to see them lying out on the grass all of almost every Sunday morning, and sometimes into the afternoon, while in an Ivy League college; but, of course, they're the ones who later took over running the country; so what do I know. Well, I did know that I didn't want to run this sort of country. Of course, I didn't want to be in the army either, but they got me in in a peacetime draft. That was their bad luck though.

Ray (no money for DUIs)

[Mac]

NanoByte said:
Why are we supposed to accept that people in the military are stable adults? They have always seemed less so, on average, than those not in the military.

Get a clue we are not a bunch of psychotic children running around with guns. To be in the military we have to go through extensive background checks, psychological evaluations, years of training. We are held to a higher standard of personal integrity and responsibility than civilians. My personal life is a matter of an open record to my supervisor on and off duty and any ratings or promotions are reflected in it. Anyone who appears to be the least bit unstable is referred to mental health evaluated treated and if necessary discharged. If your experiences with military personnel have been with some individuals acting stupid take them for what they are individuals. Don't dump us all into one category, look around you in order to not be in the military you need only to be born.

[NanoByte]

I calls 'em as I sees 'em, statistically. I haven't had a lot of personal contact with the military and I served my required two years in a college-educated/tamed outfit. But I read the papers. I also grew up during WWII near, but not too near (Salinas), the now-essentially extinct Ft. Ord, CA, US. One sees, worldwide, the results of the military on communities around their bases and in seaports frequented by navies.

The military figures that, at 18, recruits or inductees may not be responsible adults, but what they're looking for is zombies to order around, in any case, not responsible individuals.

Ray (way it is)

[Monty]

Nanobyte: your last posting above is extremely uninformed, at best; at worst, it's an outrageous example of bigoted rhetoric.

Pray tell, exactly how do you draw the (incorrect) conclusion that the Armed Forces are looking for mindless zombies?

[matt_mcl]

It is my firm opinion that you are an adult when you can consent, not the other way around. I could consent to sex at age 16, which I know because I did. Other people can consent at younger or older ages.

[NanoByte]

Monty:

Pray tell, exactly how do you draw the (incorrect) conclusion that the Armed Forces are looking for mindless zombies?

I didn't say they were looking for mindless zombies. The zombies they're looking for have to have minds, but minds in shape only for ordering around. Such minds don't have to be responsible, which puts them in the zombie category. This shows up off duty.

Ray

[Sunspace]

I've thought for a while that there are possibly four ways to define adulthood:

Maturity. If you take responsibility for your actions, you are an adult. (How can you tell whether someone takes responsibility?)

Age. If you are at or above a certain age, you are an adult. (What age? And who chooses the age?)

Biology. If you can father or mother a child, you are an adult. (But what about parenting?)

Skills. If you can demonstrate the skills needed to survive in your society, you are an adult. (What skills? And should they be the same for everyone?)

In RL, of course, adulthood may be a combination of these. I suspect that age was chosen as the criterion simply because it is by far the easiest to implement.

BTW, Michael Ventura wrote an essay about the transition to adulthood on tribal cultures, and how, at puberty, the young people of the tribe need intense experience, and the adults responded with intense experiences to provide needed knowledge and to initiate the young people into adulthood.

He contended that we (the dominant worldwide culture) do not have a formal initiation into adulthood. Many of us therefore never truly know or feel that we are adult, and we have as a result extended our time of intense experience, that we call "adolescence", into our twenties and thirties. As a result our culture and the world is going crazy...

There is a lot more to Ventura's essay. I highly recommend it; I think it was called "The Age of Endarkenment". It was published in "Whole Earth Review" a while back. Ventura had two books called "Shadow Dancing in the USA" and "Letters At 3AM". I think the essay was in one of them. A quick web search revealed no online citations, but Indigo.ca, Chapters.ca and Amazon.com have the books.

-Scott
Parolu Esperante!

[Monty]

Nanobyte: your attempt to describe the military as zombies is transaparent prejudice. The Armed Forces do not require zombies; they require folks with functioning minds and bodies. There's a heck of a lot more to serving in the Armed Forces than just "do or die" and "yes, sir." But then, you wouldn't know that, would you? Nice of you to make such a sweeping generalization based on exactly zero knowledge.

[matt_mcl]

Parolu Esperante

Certe, se vi volas, sed mi timas ke aliaj ne komprenos nin, chi tiu estante anglalingva afishejo...

[aaronp]

Nanobyte, I don’t understand what your motivation is. I do understand that you took my innocent question and tried to tear it apart line-by-line as if it were some sort of passive-aggressive argument. Really though, it was just a question, and by me following it with a few statements I was trying to show how my curiosity formed. I wasn’t trying to say it was an argument at all, only an observation of something that seemed ambiguous to me.

So, that said, please enlightens me with an answer to my question before any argument takes place. Otherwise, I won’t exactly know what we’re arguing over. Some people have suggested that the age of 18 being an adult is just arbitrary law. Others have said it’s the age that males are militarily able. Others have suggested that it’s the age when a person is responsible for their own actions. Others have even thrown out other tidbits of information that makes the question that much more interesting.

Let’s assume that one thing is true: all cultures define age thresholds at different times. Why does the U.S. or western nations in general define adulthood to be around the age of 18? Is there real basis, or only opinion?


Sunspace, thanks for the references. I'll check them out.

[Sunspace]

Certe, se vi volas, sed mi timas ke aliaj ne komprenos nin, chi tiu estante anglalingva afishejo...

Mi ne havas mian vortaron cxi-tiu; sed mi kredas, ke vi diris "without there being English-language posts here."

Mia vortaro estas mia plej bone amiko. Mi devas vivon :/ But maybe that belongs in another thread.

[threemae]

Until I turn 18, I'm just running around making contracts I can hold people to that are >18 but that they can not hold to me.

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There is no safety for honest men but by believing all possible evil of evil men.

--Edmund Burke