Recommend to me a grand strategy wargame (non RTS)

[clairobscur]

As said in the tittle, I'm searching for a grand strategy wargame, that would include if possible supplies, command and control, creation of new units, etc... Ideally also that would allow to play the tactical battles too (though I've only seen one such game, "Napoleon 1812", that was bugged and generally worthless, so it might be difficult to find one).

As mentionned, I'm not searching for an RTS. The game doesn't need to be very recent (in fact my computer is only middle of the road), just still relatively easy to find.
The era doesn't matter much to me. Anything from the antiquity to WWII and beyond goes.

Of course, I'd like the AI to be at least acceptable. I played two such American Civil War based games that I won while still reading the rulebook, for instance. So, I'd rather have an AI that can win against a player acting mostly randomly ;)

I'm going to mention that I already know both Hearts of Iron and the Operationnal Art of War.

[Mosier]

Europa Universalis 3 is about as in depth grand strategy as you're likely to see. It is not RTS, and focuses almost entirely on political and economic development. You don't play tactical battles on it.

King Arthur, The Roleplaying Wargame sounds right up your alley, and it will play well on a middle-of-the-road computer. It has heavy elements of fantasy in it, so if wizards casting lightning bolts and such during tactical battles doesn't appeal to you, you might want to skip it. Otherwise it's exactly what you described. It includes resource management, economy management, research, political concerns, and lets you play tactical battles. The battles ARE rts, but you can issue orders while the battle is paused, so the flow of the battle is not rushed.

[John DiFool]

EU3 is pausable RTS, just to be clear.

There's always the Strategic Command 2 series (http://www.battlefront.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=10), if you want some old school WWII (and now, WW I) action.

[clairobscur]

Europa Universalis 3 is about as in depth grand strategy as you're likely to see.

Yes, but I know the EU serie too. I didn't mention it because I didn't thought of it as a wargame. Though in fact I could be interested too in games that aren't strictly speaking "wargames". However, at the moment, I'm not interested in an EU-style game (Crusader kings, etc...). I played them a bit too much :)


King Arthur, The Roleplaying Wargame sounds right up your alley, and it will play well on a middle-of-the-road computer.

I'm going to look into this one. Indeed, a pausable battle doesn't bother me. What I mostly don't like about RTS is the "click on the building to produce units, then move immediatly to the other side of the map to order around other units in the raging battle", both because it's totally unrealistic and because I don't like being rushed.


Meanwhile, I was looking around and wondering if any of you had an opinion about the "supreme ruler" serie?

[Lute Skywatcher]

Try Master of Magic (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/master_of_magic/) for some old school empire management/turn-based fantasy strategy that works on XP or later.

[clairobscur]

Try Master of Magic (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/master_of_magic/) for some old school empire management/turn-based fantasy strategy that works on XP or later.

Unfortunately, I know this one too. One of the best games I played, despite having discovered it ten years or so after its release. The only game I ever bought a (useful) strategy book for. I plays it from time to time. It's a shame that they didn't make a newer, more visually appealing version of it (and with more ennemies too!).

Are you sure it runs on XP, though? I always plays it on DOS.


By the way, I also knows "Master of Orion 2". Never tried Master of Orion 3 because according to posters here, it seems to have been a dissapointment.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Are you sure it runs on XP, though? I always plays it on DOS.That's a Good Old Games link so it's either been recompiled for a modern OS or it runs through DOSBox.

[Lute Skywatcher]

How about Mosby's Confederacy (http://store.steampowered.com/app/17180/?snr=1_7_7_151_150_1)?

[Kinthalis]

The total war games maybe? You can play it from the turn based map only if you want, but you can pause the realtime tactical battles. The older ones will play fine on older PCs. I would recommend Rome, Medieval 2, and shogun 2.

Also civ 5 might be right up your alley, as well galactic civ 2

[MOIDALIZE]

Have you actually played Hearts of Iron 3? The gameplay is not quite where it ultimately will be (typical Paradox game), but a second expansion is in the works and the ICE mod is excellent.

[Airk]

Sword of the Stars? It doesn't have the level of micromanaging control that you asked for and it's "only" pausable realtime battles, but it's still pretty easy to acquire and a darn fine game (I consider it better than MOO2 which was too "Build a hydroponic farm on every colony" - which I dislike in the same way that you dislike clicking on buildings to build units. ;) )

[Sitnam]

Gary Grigsby's World at War (http://www.matrixgames.com/games/WorldAtWar/main.asp) is pretty good, theres a slight learning curve as any strategy game with depth will have. Similar to Axis & Allies but far deeper. You really have to be the Axis though otherwise the AI doesn't stand a chance.

Crown of Glory: Europe in the Age of Napoleon (http://www.matrixgames.com/products/306/details/Crown.of.Glory:.Europe.in.the.Age.of.Napoleon) is supposed to be really good. I purchased it, but haven't really gotten into it as I've had other things on the docket lately.

There's always the classic Panzer General II (http://www.gog.com/en/catalogue) which is a steal at $10. Castles II on that list is pretty good too, not as deep as you're looking for probably but a good time.

Korsun Pocket is supposed to be fantastic, but thats another one I still haven't had time to learn.


This genre is my wheelhouse so I'll be following this thread and adding more when I think of them.

[Sitnam]

Strategic Command is $5.00 on Gog.com and has a very low educational entrance fee.

Strategy First (http://www.strategyfirst.com/)

and

Matrix Games (http://www.matrixgames.com/) are great sources...the later I think has greater quality than the former.

[AClockworkMelon]

Just letting you know that I tried EU3 and I was completely overwhelmed by it. There was just so much that I found the learning curve impossible to get over. You might be far better at it than I was but I'm just throwing that out there. And I'm not one of the 60-year old dopers who gets confused by cell phones- I love customization and detail in the games that I play and often think that the options in games like Civ are too shallow. But EU3 was... it was something else altogether.

[Sitnam]

Slitherine's Field of Glory (http://www.slitherine.com/downloads/1) franchise is supposed to be great too.


OK, I'm done. For now.

[clairobscur]

How about Mosby's Confederacy (http://store.steampowered.com/app/17180/?snr=1_7_7_151_150_1)?


I looked at it, but despite seeming interesting, it rather looks like a tactical level game (with individual soldiers)

The total war games maybe? You can play it from the turn based map only if you want, but you can pause the realtime tactical battles. The older ones will play fine on older PCs. I would recommend Rome, Medieval 2, and shogun 2.

Also civ 5 might be right up your alley, as well galactic civ 2

I played Shogun 1. It has the inconvenience (for me) of real-time battles I'm not really good at (and don't enjoy as much as many people do. I feel stressed instead of relaxed when I play this way). However, it's also the only game I ever played on line in multi-player mode. I've noticed the current thread about Shogun 2, and might buy this game and try again the online multi-player mode. But at the moment, I'm rather thinking about a non real-time game (or a with a pause feature)

Regarding Civ, I only recently began to play Civ 4 (and have a ton of issues running it on windows 7. Currently, I again can't start it), so I'll probably buy Civ 5 when Civ 6 will be released:D . I bought once galactic civ (don't know if it was 1 or 2), but got a defective disk (the game crashed after some turns, and no technical solutions could be found) , and since I tried to play it several months after I bought it, I couldn't get a refund or exchange neither from the seller nor from the distributor. I'm irrationally unwilling to buy again a game I paid for and couldn't play :mad:


Have you actually played Hearts of Iron 3? The gameplay is not quite where it ultimately will be (typical Paradox game), but a second expansion is in the works and the ICE mod is excellent.

No, I've only played HoI 1 (the version modified by the community). I will probably someday upgrade to a newer version, but I'm more searching at the moment for a new game than for a new version of a game I already know. In fact, I was envisioning to buy HoI 2 or 3 when I decided instead to start this thread to fish for something new.



Sword of the Stars? It doesn't have the level of micromanaging control that you asked for and it's "only" pausable realtime battles, but it's still pretty easy to acquire and a darn fine game (I consider it better than MOO2 which was too "Build a hydroponic farm on every colony" - which I dislike in the same way that you dislike clicking on buildings to build units. ;) )

I don't mind building hydroponic plants everywhere, that's a civ-like feature I'm accustomed to. In fact, what I liked the most in MOO2 were the very customizable ships. I enjoyed as much creating new models as actually playing the game, I think.
Reading the reviews, it seems that Sword of the Stars also has a similar feature, which is a plus. But at first glance, my understanding is that battles are very quick and non-pausable. Which is a minus. Could you tell me if there's a pause feature?

Also, I notice that "Sword of the Stars 2" is soon to be released. Shouldn't I wait for the new version?



Since I'm looking at reviews for the games proposed, I haven't yet looked into the games mentioned in the most recent posts.

[Gukumatz]

Shogun 2 lets you pause combat indefinitely to consider your moves, or play at half speed for that matter. The AI is pretty good, but there are of course some strategies that pays higher dividends. There's no rush and you can easily make mistakes and recover. Hell, even losing a "field stack" (I.e. your biggest army) can be recovered from as long as you play it smart. And with the saving system (which lets you quicksave right before any combat and autosaves every turn) you can replay battles as often as you like, if you get it wrong.

If it feels a bit hectic, you can always go back to one of the previous games, like Empire or Napoleon, which were set in the gunpowder era (American revolution and, well, Napoleon's campaigns respectively). The pace is a lot slower and more considered in those games, since it was rarely about rushing your troops around the field and more about slow envelopment and proper placement.

Both games feature big "real time" battles (that can be paused for digestion) as well as a properly strategic meta-game with diplomacy and some trade aspects.

[Sitnam]

I have 20+ years of wargaming in my blood but the Total War series has never done anything for me.

I like all types of war games and can appreciate each different one for it's unique focus, depth and period. Personally I just don't see any of those games scratching the 'tactical itch'.

No matter how often you pause or slow to half speed the interface is still highlighting groups and then pointing them at something. I like StarCraft and Warcraft too, but I'd hesitate to call them war games either.

To each his own I guess, but to me a war game should feel like chess + poker and TW doesn't.

[Gukumatz]

No matter how often you pause or slow to half speed the interface is still highlighting groups and then pointing them at something. I like StarCraft and Warcraft too, but I'd hesitate to call them war games either.


I'd say that's a gross oversimplification and the comparison is doing both the Total War series and the War/Starcraft games a disservice. True, the formula of Grand Strategy is diluted to make room for more accessible gameplay, but battles really are as complex as you want them to be. And the last two games' drop-in combat functionality ensures that if you find the AI to be unrewarding to fight against, there's a very good alternative.

Having a bit of a roleplaying bent and really getting into the spirit of things helps, too.

Back to the OP, have you looked at King's Bounty? It's a kind of Heroes-esque hex-combat quasi-RTS. You might like it.

[panamajack]

I'm in about the same position as the OP — considering getting HOI 3, but looking at other options.

I've been following the SA Let's Play War In the Pacific (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3238049), which is unfolding in "real time" - one turn a day. It's been going on for over a year now. It's making me want to go for something like that, where I could play about 15-30 min a day and feel like I'm not lost each time I head back in. Possibly not quite as lengthy a game, but I don't mind a broad scope.

One thing I really dislike is the standard "move one piece at a time entirely" turn-based procedure. It's a holdover from the tabletop days, and IMO makes it terribly tough to plan moves. So I'd prefer either a slow/pausable RTS, or something with a better turn-based option. Planned simultaneous, or moves like Atomic's V for Victory series are more of what I like.

I tried the TW Medieval but it left me feeling a little cold. Some of what Sitnam said, in that the interface didn't feel like I could easily understand what my troops are doing. I'm considering giving Shogun 2 a shot, but at 6 GB for the demo alone, it better be worth it.

[clairobscur]

Gary Grigsby's World at War (http://www.matrixgames.com/games/WorldAtWar/main.asp) is pretty good, theres a slight learning curve as any strategy game with depth will have. Similar to Axis & Allies but far deeper. You really have to be the Axis though otherwise the AI doesn't stand a chance.

I already own this game too. It's OK, but not that great in my opinion, but that's mostly because I tend to like detailed games. The advantage, obviously, is that it doesn't take too long to play a game (as opposed to playing HoI, covering also WWII, for instance).


Crown of Glory: Europe in the Age of Napoleon (http://www.matrixgames.com/products/306/details/Crown.of.Glory:.Europe.in.the.Age.of.Napoleon) is supposed to be really good. I purchased it, but haven't really gotten into it as I've had other things on the docket lately.

Bought it yesterday and begun playing it. It looked very much like the kind of game I wanted about the Napoleonic period. Although I didn't fell in love with it, at least yet, (I can't pinpoint exactly why), it seems good. I bought the second "Emperor's edition" version, where they added some features, in particular regarding naval battles.

I wrote something that looked like a review by someone who didn't read the rules and doesn't have a clue about what he's doing. But I deleted it and am just going to say : the game is complex with many aspects (detailed battles, improvements of units or at the national level probably allowing to customize your army a lot, trade, diplomacy, economy, influencing minor countries, generals, a rather light supply system). Battles are quite long, so playing a full campaign with a major power is certainly going to take a very long time. When I'll have actually read all the rules, understood all the concepts, and played a full game, I'll know what to think of the game. There's no way at this point I could guess if it's a great game or a disappointment. I think it will mostly depends on the AI.


There's always the classic Panzer General II (http://www.gog.com/en/catalogue) which is a steal at $10. Castles II on that list is pretty good too, not as deep as you're looking for probably but a good time.

I never played "Panzer general" itself, but I played another game of the serie : "People's general" (about an hypothetical conflict between China and basically the rest of the world). I liked the fact there was a campaign mode, some customization, and bringing experienced units from a scenario to another, found it rather pleasant overall and had fun playing it, but I have some reservations :

-It's not a grand strategy game. It's rather a tactical game where the fight, including only a limited number of units, is supposed to represent a large scale battle. You don't make any strategic decision, just go from one scenario to another.

-As a result, the units depicted aren't realistic. You have artillery, tanks, armored infantry,etc... but they are very generic and you have no way to guess at what scale you're playing. Your units could be divisions or companies. Impossible to tell.

-The issue you face as a player is generally "going from A to B quickly enough so that you won't lose because you reached the end of the scenario, with enough units in good shape to win.

-The strategy of your computer opponent is almost always : I have a ton of hidden anti-air weapons, artillery and whatever else will prevent you from even approaching the objective. That is, it uses brute force to provide a challenge. After X number of battles, it becomes a bit repetitive and frustrating to assault hedgehogs.

I can't tell it's a bad game, it's still fun. But definitely not a great game for buffs. I think it's probably a good game for casual players.

Of course, I'm assuming here that Panzer General is similar.


Korsun Pocket is supposed to be fantastic, but thats another one I still haven't had time to learn.

I bookmarked it for future reference, but I don't feel like playing a specific operation. I want a full war from beginning to end :cool:

[MOIDALIZE]

FYI, there's an open source version of Panzer General 2 available with a ton of mods included.

Open General (http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/opengeneral/index.php?title=Main_Page)

[clairobscur]

I'm not finished with the thread yet (I'll investigate about the other games proposed later), but I think it's going to cost me quite a lot of money and keep me busy for a long time. I already bought :

-Supreme Leader 2020 (*this* beast has a really steep learning curve, even by my long-time player standards :eek: . Absolutely can't tell if it's any good.

-The emperor edition of "Crown of Glory"

-The complete edition of "King Arthur : the role playing wargame" (currently downloading it. The general concept seems interesting and original.)

I'll probably buy "Shogun 2" if I think it can run properly on my computer. If not, I'll probably play the first edition again one of these days. I liked it, didn't play it in a long time (probably a couple years) and the current discussions about it renewed my interest.

[clairobscur]

-Supreme Leader 2020

I meant Supreme Ruler 2020

[Lute Skywatcher]

I looked at it, but despite seeming interesting, it rather looks like a tactical level game (with individual soldiers)It's based on the 43rd Virginia Calvary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43rd_Battalion_Virginia_Cavalry) so the campaign map is limited to their actions. Individual battles are at squad level but the squads are raised through the nearby villages and your soldiers earn promotions during the campaign.

[mlees]

I'm in about the same position as the OP — considering getting HOI 3, but looking at other options.

I've been following the SA Let's Play War In the Pacific (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3238049), which is unfolding in "real time" - one turn a day. It's been going on for over a year now. It's making me want to go for something like that, where I could play about 15-30 min a day and feel like I'm not lost each time I head back in. Possibly not quite as lengthy a game, but I don't mind a broad scope.



It looks like they are playing "War in the Pacific" or the newer (and bigger) "War in the Pacific, Admiral's Edition" from Matrix Games.

Monster games. The economy is the toughest thing to figure out and control. Leaving things (like running Japan's economy, or assembling and routing supply convoys) on "computer assistant" tends to dork them up, especially in the vanilla edition.

Speaking about the economy, there the Japanese player can somewhat manage their builds, but the Allied player doesn't get the same abilities and fun. Even so, the Japanese player cannot start "new" capital ships, but elect to devote resources to ones already on the schedule (like the Shinano). This is not usually an issue, as there are tons of stuff on the ship building schedule that most aren't going to be built anyway. However, Japan (if properly planned) can build tons more aircraft than they actually did during the war.

Never-the-less, it's one of the classic turn based strategy games in my hard drive. Don't play it as much as I used to. Planning and moving dozens, if not not hundreds, of individual units per turn can take a while. (The first turn of the game is brutal, even for the Allies. :D )

[Sitnam]

Bought it yesterday and begun playing it. It looked very much like the kind of game I wanted about the Napoleonic period. Although I didn't fell in love with it, at least yet, (I can't pinpoint exactly why), it seems good. I bought the second "Emperor's edition" version, where they added some features, in particular regarding naval battles.

Yeah, I only found out about that version after I bought the 'sans naval battle' one. However, the reviews for the Naval battles I read calls them 'uninspired'.

Let me know if it's worthwhile getting the deluxe edition.

[Sitnam]

Steel Panthers (http://www.matrixgames.com/products/297/details/Steel.Panthers:.World.at.War.-.Generals.Edition) Originally just tactical scenarios, looks like this package has combined them and your success or failure in one battle affects your assets and decisions later. I might pick this one up.

[Tristan]

Steel Panthers (http://www.matrixgames.com/products/297/details/Steel.Panthers:.World.at.War.-.Generals.Edition) Originally just tactical scenarios, looks like this package has combined them and your success or failure in one battle affects your assets and decisions later. I might pick this one up.

Absolutlely. Playing the scenarios on this made me really understand what a "Pyhrric Victory" is all about. That being said, it's not quite grand strategy, in that there isn't much beyond picking your units and using them on the field.

One of the things I LOVED About Hearts of Iron was directing research, and thus coming out with superior fighters, or armor, or what-have-you. I have HoI 3, but it's just so badly broken I haven't been able to get into it in any sort of real detail.

Related to that was the ability to create from whole cloth your own ships in Galactic Civilizations 2. I liked that. I could make a truly devestating ship, but it would cost me a small fortune. I usually ended up going the Star Wars route... a small number of capital ships, with a ludicrous amount of small fighters that would often get off one or two shots before being vaporized. Good times!

[panamajack]

I thought I'd pop back into this thread with an update on what I did. Crown of Glory (EE) does indeed look interesting, but the battle sequence seems a bit too breezy for me - you don't even get to choose which unit is moving, it seems. The interface seems like it could be better, as well.

I ended up giving the Total War series another shot, and I'm actually liking Empire. (Shogun is too much for my old computer, and I don't think I'd like the battle style anyway. Plus I picked up the double pack with Napoleon, which I haven't tried yet). The variety an technological change in the units is balanced enough to be interesting, and the strategic map is interesting without bogging you down. It's not without its flaws, but most of those are in the strategic side and I haven't run into anything terrible yet. I might like a nicer cultural model, but I wasn't expecting EU anyway. I hear the "Darth Mod" is supposed to make it even more interesting - has anyone tried that?

Also, since there have been a few references to more tactical games with larger campaigns like Panzer General, I'll make another recommendation. Battle for Wesnoth (http://www.wesnoth.org/). It has a fantasy setting, which really means access to a wider variety of units. That's probably it's biggest strength, but I found that it can be crucial to build up some quality units for the tough battles. Another big plus is that it's free, but the campaigns are pretty high quality.

[Chimpsmack]

I hear the "Darth Mod" is supposed to make it even more interesting - has anyone tried that?

Yes, I've run DarthMod. It's a significant upgrade to the game. Taking a look at the creator's poll over on TWCenter, over 80% of 132 respondents credit the mod with providing better AI in both campaign and strategic phases. It also gets high marks for improving physics for cannon, muskets and cavalry, and morale and economic changes, among other things. Small sample size, so take it for what it's worth, but IME any of the TW games are significantly improved by adding either DarthMod or Realism.

[CandidGamera]

Anybody remember Empire? Pretty nifty turn-based strategy game..

[Kobal2]

By the way, I also knows "Master of Orion 2". Never tried Master of Orion 3 because according to posters here, it seems to have been a dissapointment.

It's not really a disappointment, more of a "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ?!". Had it not used the name MoO and the expectations that came with it, it could conceivable have had higher reviews.

Not much higher, but higher.

Have you tried Sword Of The Stars yet ? Interesting little game, with a solid multiplayer aspect to boot if that's your thing. Sort of like a mix between Master of Orion and the Total War series: a stripped down space 4X game with pausable real time space battles when your armadas stumble upon enemy fleets. Or space bugs. Screw space bugs, screw them with a giant laser dildo.
As a bonus, the tech tree is a) different depending on the race, each race is in fact very distinct in what it can or can't do and b) randomized on a per-game basis. You will always have access to a handful of core technologies, but the techs that branch off from them may or may not appear this time around (and you don't know if they will in advance). The chance of each tech appearing is also based on the race (for example, the Liir and Morrigi both have very high chances to get the good laser and shield techs, but armour techs are iffy at best). RAGE along with us when you get neither Point Defense nor Emitters !