Orthodox Jews

[Prufrock]

My little sister (she's 18 and just started college) has been dating an orthodox Jew for about a year now. She's slowly becoming more and more brain-washed by this guy's family into living a more "holy" lifestyle.



I don't have any problem with her becoming religious, but she's refusing to use electricity on the Sabbath, is keeping kosher and won't wear shorts. I'm sorry, but the whole thing seems like a bunch of nonesense to me. Hell, she's even started to reject evolution in favor of creationism!



So, what I need is someone who's an old testement/torah/Judaism expert. I want to present her with actual passages (or whatever) from these texts to show her that much of what these right-wing fanatics do (I think of the orthodox Jews much in the same way as the right-wing Christians, or, for that matter, the Koresh-type cults) are just interpretations of vague text or silly traditions that some rabbi thought up some 2,000 years ago.



I realize that it's hard to argue science with someone who's following blind faith, but I think it might work if I show her that much of the stuff she's doing has little to do with the actual religion.

[kknick34]

Let her make her own choices. Who are you to say Orthodox Jews are wrong?

Besides if she breaks up with this guy she give up being Orthodox on her own.

[Strainger]

I eagerly await the sarcasmitosis-afflicted Dex's response.

[manhattan]

Kind of an unfair question to ask on a Friday, don’t ya think? Anyone who could defend him/herself against your outrageous slur cannot use the computer after sundown tonight. Nor can they use it tomorrow.

Since it’s after sundown in my time zone and I can’t allow this garbage to go unchallenged, I’ll give it a (less informed) shot. I’ll make some doctrinal errors here, but I won’t be directionally wrong, and it should tide you over until a more informed person can fill in the gaps.

You, sir, are a bigot. Judaism is, you may have heard, a very old and respected religion. Those Jews who stick to the old (orthodox) ways are keeping alive traditions that are thousands of years old and which they believe are orders from G-d himself. (I’m going to avoid the use of that entire word so as not to offend those who come upon this post later.)

There is no proscription on "using" electricity on the Sabbath. But most Orthodox Jews do not because it is virtually impossible to do so and obey the will of G-d. You see, from the most ancient times, Jewish doctrine insists that one neither start nor extinguish a fire on the holy day. Turning on or off a switch creates a spark, or a very short-lived fire. So any device which uses electricity must remain on or off for the duration of the Sabbath.

This is why many buildings on the lower east side of NY have "Sabbath elevators." Starting at sundown Friday and running to sundown Saturday, the elevator automatically stops on each and every floor, and the doors stay open for an unusually long time. This allows observant Jews to get in and out of their apartments without offending G-d. If this were the biggest quirk in any religion, the world would be a much more peaceful place today.

It’s even more ridiculous for you not to understand keeping kosher. Do you compare Islam to cults because pork is proscribed? Or Hindus because they do not use the products of cows? Or pre-Vatican II Catholics because they avoided meat on Fridays? Well, the laws governing Orthodox Jews regarding meals are the same thing, only tougher. Hey, sometimes it’s difficult to please G-d.

And lots of religions have modesty rules. So get over it.

You said you needed "an old testament/torah/Judaism expert." What you really need is a clue.

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Livin' on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[Lumpy]

Hmmm... What about Orthodox Jews at the South Pole? Waiting for the sun to rise or set could take awhile there...

[Satan]

Well, I don't get this...

If her mate was so into the Orthodox ways, he would not dare date goyim.

If he is not as fanatical about his religious devoutism, why is she getting that way?

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Brian O'Neill
CMC International Records
rockuniverse.com/cmc/cmc.html (http://rockuniverse.com/cmc/cmc.html)

ICQ 35294890
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Yahoo Messenger Brian_ONeill

[BoBettie]

My 2cents-
Prufrock (love your name, by the way)
Personal religious beliefs are just that. I understand you're concerned, but this is one of those MYOB situations. It's not hurting her or you for her to do these things, and she may be getting a lot out of this religion that you aren't aware of.

PS- I know where you're coming from- my Ex-husbands family was crazy about no birth control and no meat on Fridays, etc, etc- I thought they were nuts and they thought I was going straight to hell (I probobly am, but not for that) No amount of reason from me changed their minds- it's just the way people are about religion. To each his own :)

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An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; A pessimist sees a calamity in every opportunity.

[Doug Bowe]

Yep! Your sister's 18 Prufrock. She's old enough to make her own decisions.
If she's really in love with this guy anything you say against him will only build a wall between you and her.

[Montfort]

... and a big l'shana tova to everyone (including you Prufock).

Is everyone ready for the Y6K virus? :)

[Prufrock]

Well, it seems that many of the posters (well, only a couple, really) have forgotten the entire purpose of this bulleting board: WIPING OUT IGNORANCE!!!

I specifically requested that any person with expertise in the actual texts to provide me with actual quotes and passages some right-wing Jews were using to further their cause. If you want to label me a bigot. Fine. I really couldn't care less. The fact remains, though, is that I AM Jewish, I just feel that the Orthodox and Hassidic Jews have bastardized the religion through interpretations of extremely vague text.

This is how the Christians have justified killing abortion doctors (not to mention the Inquisition, Crusades, etc...) This is how Muslims have justified acts of terrorism. Can you think of any religion that has not been used to justify violence or oppression at one time or another?

Religious extremeists find all sorts of ways to use their interpretations of text to justify their actions. I'm just looking for the actual quotes from the texts to present to her so that she can make an informed decision. I hate seeing her fall into a lifestyle that will ultimately force her into a subserviant role (as a female), where she ends up getting married at 20 to stay home and be a baby-factory.

[manhattan]

The fact remains, though, is that I AM Jewish, I just feel that the Orthodox and Hassidic Jews have bastardized the religion through interpretations of extremely vague text.If you’re really Jewish, you know that some sects of Judaism think the same of Reform Jews.

This is how the Christians have justified killing abortion doctors (not to mention the Inquisition, Crusades, etc...) This is how Muslims have justified acts of terrorism. Can you think of any religion that has not been used to justify violence or oppression at one time or another?And which of the things you originally mentioned is a precursor to violent behavior? The dress code? The diet rules? The whole electricity thing? Come on, that’s a stretch and you know it. I suspect you’re just trying to justify going overboard in your OP.

I'm just looking for the actual quotes from the texts to present to her so that she can make an informed decision. I hate seeing her fall into a lifestyle that will ultimately force her into a subservient role (as a female), where she ends up getting married at 20 to stay home and be a baby-factory.O.K., now were into standard big-brother overprotectiveness. A laudable instinct which I share. This, IMHO, does explain going overboard in your OP. Two things:

First, one of the major tenets of feminism is choice. If little sis chooses for herself the subservience that goes with religious orthodoxy, that’s her call. If you respect her freedom, all you can do is be there for her if it turns out she made the wrong choice for herself.

Second, if there are any Orthodox Jews on the SDMB, you won’t see them till tonight, as I mentioned. But you’re likely to find responses from any party to be disappointing. This is because, as in most religions, the text exists to support the rules. At least from the perspective of the rule-followers. Just as observant Catholics believe that the Pope is infallible despite no mention of this in the Bible or early Christian texts, Judaism as practiced by the orthodox has its own texts. The rules (and later interpretations of the rules) lay out the procedures pretty plainly; your sister’s boyfriend’s family’s rabbi did not make them up. So yes, one rule or another may seem to you like a "silly tradition thought up by a rabbi 2000 years ago," but to believers it’s doctrine.

And since its such an old religion, the rules are also hundreds or thousands of years old.

If you really believe that this is the wrong thing for your sister, ask your rabbi for spiritual assistance. But I think you’re gonna have to talk to her textual backup.

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Livin' on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[Akatsukami]

Well, Prufrock, I suggest that you go to either the Karaites or to Reform for assistance. I'll even give you a Karaite URL http://www.karaites.org/index.htm that includes a snail-mail address and a phone number. I don't have Reform contact information to hand, but since their synagogues sprout like mushrooms, I doubt that thirty seconds with the Yellow Pages will leave you empty.

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"Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away."

[C K Dexter Haven]

I had brilliant comments all line up, until I got to the post that said that you yourself are Jewish, Pruf.

First off, you'll never dissuade someone from Orthodoxy by quoting text at them. They will outquote you every time, and there are far more texts supporting their point of view than yours.

Second, please note that there are major distinctions between so-called "modern Orthodox" and ultra-right wing Hassidim. Basically, Orthodox Jews accept the validity of the Bible and all the rabbinic commentary. The body of laws (including commentary) is called halakha, and addresses almost every aspect of life -- how to eat, how to wear clothes, etc. Orthodox Jews accept the unbroken line of tradition as binding. Conservative Jews believe that the line of tradition can be modified; Reform Jews don't find the traditions binding.

For many Conservative or Reform Jewish families, sad to say, the idea of a son or daughter marrying into an Orthodox faith is repulsive. The opposite is also true, that many view marriage with Conservative or Reform as tantamount to conversion. The Nazis didn't make such distinctions, and the mingled ashes of Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, secular, and other branches should be a constant reminder... but sadly are not.

OK, there are some Hassidic groups that are very cult-like and sect-like, hovering around a charismatic rebbe/guru, and cutting off relationship with the family. There are some groups that reject the existence of the State of Israel, for instance. Such groups are few and small in number; if your sister is thinking of joining one of them, you might want to consider some drastic intervention.

But if you're talking mainstream Orthodox (whether traditional or modern), my opinion is that you haven't got the right to interfere. To the contrary, you are better off letting her explore whatever avenues her heart leads her down... and let her come to her own conclusions. Your antagonism will only push her further down that path, for the wrong reasons. Support her in investigating, let her know your personal stance, but let her know that you respect her ability to make up her own mind.

I can guarantee that if you try to tell her that Orthodox is "silly" or "nonsense," she'll want to prove that you are wrong, and you'll push her further in the direction you don't want her to go.

Frankly, the things that you quote -- traditional observance of the sabbath, keeping kosher, not wearing revealing clothing -- don't sound very objectionable to me.

[Keeves]

Prufrock, I strongly recommend that you take Manhattan's and CKDextHavn's posts very seriously. What you need is not a source of texts that you can throw at your sister; what you need is a clearer understanding of exactly what you don't like about what she is doing.

There was a great poster in my high school guidance counselor's office:You have not converted someone just because you've silenced him.I have always understood this to mean (translated to your situation) that you have no hope of changing your sister's views simply by explaining your own. Rather, you should try to see things from her point of view, and then show her how according to her own value system, these things don't make sense.

If you can.

[cmkeller]

Prufrock, I can only wonder what horrible experience has instilled in you such hatred for the traditional form of your own religion.

Orthodox Judaism, whether Hasidic or not, is not the "bastardized" form of the religion. It is the most purely distilled form of the religion. Every law or custom that Orthodox Jews follow can be pointed to in a book, which will in turn point to an earlier-written book, and so forth, until you get to the Talmud, which points to the written Torah (Bible). If you want to claim, based on your own conclusions, that the Torah is man-made and not divine, that's your right, but who, then, is the one changing (I assume this is what "bastardizing" means to you) the religion...you, or those who continue to maintain that is it what is has been said to be for thousands of years?

Simply put, if you want to start a religion based on the Democratic Party platform, it's your right. If you want to include "Judaism" in the name of that religion, there's nothing that can be done to stop you. But don't you dare accuse Orthodox Jews of "bastardizing" the religion. Ain't nothing further from the truth.

As for your sister, how about asking her, in a non-confrontational way, why she's decided that Orthodox Judaism is for her? Maybe then, you'll be able to discuss the matter rationally, without the visceral reaction of disgust that you seem to be working from here.

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Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@schicktech.com

"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective

[John W. Kennedy]

Look, I'm a gentile and a Christian, so I'm a little out of my depth here. (I'm also a kinda, sorta honorary Conservative Jew (long story), so I'm less ignorant than most, which is the only reason I'm speaking up in the first place.) I have one little question here....

Is it normal for Orthodox Jews to reject Darwin? If not, is it at least common? If not, is it downright unusual? If so, is it freaky?

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[jane_says]

I must agree with BunnyGirl - she's only 18. My sister is 22 and she went through every conceivable idendity phase imaginable - cheerleader, cowboy, conservative Christian, pothead-hippie, etc. She is now the manager of her husband's horror-punk-ska band. Each time she changed hats, so to speak, it was due to the influence of whomever she happened to being dating. I wouldn't worry about it too much just yet. Besides, she could be doing worse.
This is sort of unrelated, but so are most things I say. My husband's son, who is 8, came to live with us 2 weeks ago. Yesterday, he asked to go to church (Methodist) with my mom. On the way there, they discussed the fact that he is a Jew. My mom asked when the last time he went to "Jewish church" was. "I didn't know Jews go to church," he said. My mom said yes, they are called synagogues. He said he'd never heard of that - he would asked "Hannukah Charlie" about it when he brought the Christmas presents this year.

[BunnyGirl]

Pru, remember your sister is 18. She's still young and trying out new things, trying to figure out who she is. If you try the big brother routine on her, she's going to fight to do what she wants to do which will be the complete opposite of what you want her to.

If you love, like I'm sure you must, sit down and discuss with her why she feels Orthodox Judaism is right for her right now, without putting in your $.02 on what you think about it. Maybe it's providing her a structure she needs as she leaves the "nest" and starts off on her own. You might be surprised what you find out.

[cmkeller]

John W. Kennedy:

Is it normal for Orthodox Jews to reject Darwin? If not, is it at least common? If not, is it downright unusual? If so, is it freaky?

It's normal for Orthodox Jews to reject the idea that life evolved (and continues to eveolve) by chance rather than developed by divine design.

Beyond that, there's a huge range of opinion about evolution in the Orthodox Jewish world.

Chaim Mattis Keller

[C K Dexter Haven]

I reiterate what cmkeller said. Orthodox Jews do not believe in "chance" or "random" evolution, but (similar to traditionalist Christians) there is a wide range of beliefs individuals hold. Certainly the more right-wing tend to disbelieve in evolution at all; but modern Orthodox tend to believe that evolution was one of the mechanisms used by God to create life.

Orthodox Judaism does not reject science. Far from it.

If she is leaping headfirst into religion because of her new boyfriend, there's every chance that she'll leap right out of it again after they break up--or, if they stay together, she will become more reasonable after the bloom is off the rose.

So all you can do is stay friends with her, don't badmouth her boyfriend (what if she marries him?) and when you feel you HAVE to say something, go into the other room and say it to yourself. In two or five or even ten years, you and your sister will still be friends, and will probably be laughing about her brief "religious fanatic" period.

[JoltSucker]

[Disclaimer: I'm a non-Jew who's been heavily involved in a Reform Synagogue for several years -- it's a long story]

As a Reform Jewish sympathizer, I take exception to cmkeller's statement:

Orthodox Judaism, whether Hasidic or not, is not the "bastardized" form of the religion. It is the most purely distilled form of the religion. Every law or custom that Orthodox Jews follow can be pointed to in a book, which will in turn point to an earlier-written book, and so forth, until you get to the Talmud, which points to the written Torah (Bible).

I always thought that Reform was the "most purely distilled form or the religion". I realize them's fighting words, and someone's going to say something to the effect of "You just don't understand, it's a [real] Jewish thing." This "my kind of Judaism is the only real one" attitude is what's tearing up Jewish solidarity in Israel right now.

[Keeves]

Joltsucker, if you'd like to discuss this, I suggest moving the conversation to a more Jewish area. I suggest http://www.vjbb.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi which is a bulletin board run by Virtual Jerusalem. It uses an older version of the same UBB program that we have here.

Akiva Miller

[cmkeller]

Joltsucker:

Allow me to restate what I have said in non-fighting, inarguable words:

Orthodox Judaism is the form of the religion that has been practiced throughout history. Every law or custom that an Orthodox Jew follows can be pointed to, directly or indirectly, in the Talmud, giving that brand of Judaism an age of at least 1500 years. Since the Talmudic statements point to Biblical verses to back themselves up, Talmudic/Orthodox Judaismcan be said to be as old as the Bible itself...3300 years old according to Orthodox Jews themselves (ourselves), no less than 2500 according to anybody.

The various non-Orthodox forms of Judaism have made breaks with historical Jewish practice.

I'm not looking to start a fight with any non-Orthodox Jews or sympathizers with non-Orthodox Jewish movements. However, I will say that anyone who describes Orthodox Judaism as a "bastardized" form of Judaism (which is what I was responding to in the first place) is so far off the mark that to describe him as "wrong" would be to greatly underestimate his wrongess.

I'm not here to bash anyone else's beliefs, but I'm not going to sit by quietly when I see my own being bashed.

Chaim Mattis Keller

[John W. Kennedy]

I'm only a goy, but I tend to agree. The Qaraites, or perhaps even the Samaritans might have some right to call Orthodoxy "bastardized" from their point of view, but coming from the direction of Reform, calling Orthodoxy "bastardized" just doesn't fit the historic facts, the sectarian cladistics, if you will. It's as confused as the traditional lay Christian notion of Pharisees-'n'-Sadducees. Reform is, historically, watered-down Orthodoxy, not the other way around.

Whether Reform was right to have watered down Orthodoxy is, of course, a separate issue. For myself, I feel most comfortable among the Conservative (for the uninformed, the Conservative are the right wing of Reform, which separated some generations ago, so going by order of doctrine from right to left, it's Orthodox -> Conservative -> Reform -> Reconstructionist), but perhaps that's partially because I'm an Episcopalian, which is more or less the Christian Conservative analog.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[Prufrock]

A quick clarification. I have no interest in debating the validity or absurdity of any religion at the moment. Quite frankly, I don't really care what religion some stranger on a bulletin board observes (I mean, why should I?)

All I'm trying to get is actual quotes from the Torah (or wherever) that the Orthodox Jews use to validate certain customs. I'm pretty sure it never says "Girls can't wear shorts, and you're going to Hell if you get into a car on the Sabbath...and, you...yea you! Where's your skull cap?!?"

As people have pointed out, the Orthodox Jews are using rules written out 2,000 years ago. My problem is not with the rules, it's with the interpretations. I have no interest in imposing my views on my sister (ok, well maybe just a little bit...) But I DO want to give her enough facts so she can make the decision on her own (and not just use the information this guy's family is spoon-feeding her)

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[JoltSucker]

John W. Kennedy, it's a common misperception that Reform is "Judaism-lite". The way I see it, the differences between Orthodox, Conservative and Reform is really about interpretation of the Torah. Orthodox accepts the Talmudic interpretation as immutable, Conservative accepts re-interpretation by the consensus of the movement (hence the move to gender-inclusion, for example), and Reform allows for individual re-interpretation.

That said, Jews who are looking for Judaism-lite often find Reform to be a hospitable place, and so Reform congregations are a mix of the pious and the spiritually lax.

[Keeves]

Prufrock:

Girls wearing shorts -- I'll try to remember to look this one up when I get home.

Cars on the Sabbath -- Exodus 35:3: "Do not light a fire anywhere on the Sabbath day." We can discuss electric cars if you want, but anything that uses gasoline runs on fire.

Skull caps -- No one ever claimed this to be from the Toreh. If your sister did, she is mistaken. Head coverings for men are a custom that has developed since Talmudic times.

[Keeves]

Joltsucker, I'll agree that it is wrong to refer to Reform as "Judaism-Lite". There are a lot of sincere and dedicated people there, and in the Conservative movement as well.

But let's refocus on Prufrock's comment thatI just feel that the Orthodox and Hassidic Jews have bastardized the religion through interpretations of extremely vague text.Everyone will agree that much of the Torah is very vague. The whole purpose of the Talmud was to clarify those vague points. The rabbis did not do it arbitrarily by guesswork, but by comparing this vague verse with that vague verse and thus clarifying both of them. This is what CMKeller meant that <<< Orthodox Judaism ... is the most purely distilled form of the religion. >>>

Distilled, because every single idea is documented and referenced. This is not to say that there are no disagreements among the sages throughout the generations. But those disputes were always backed up with sources and explanations. Compare that with your accurate comparison:

Orthodox accepts the Talmudic interpretation as immutable, Conservative accepts re-interpretation by the consensus of the movement (hence the move to gender-inclusion, for example), and Reform allows for individual re-interpretation.Individual reinterpretation is a nice sounding phrase but we both know that what you mean is that uneducated laypeople get to decide what the Torah means without referring to prior debate about the same topic. To me, that's bastardizing the religion.

Would anyone here support individual reinterpretation of the U.S. Constitution?

[Keeves]

correction to my next-to-last paragraph: I do not mean the phrase "uneducated laypeople" to refer to the entire membership of such movements. There are indeed many people among them with appreciable levels of Torah knowledge. My point was that they, and the less-educated ones as well, share in the decision-making process, and that should not be.

For what it's worth, I am similarly bothered when I see protest marches on the evening news, and someone says "I'm a good Christian. I go to church every Sunday. And what my church says on this issue is wrong!" No sir, you can start your own church if you want, but if you don't occupy a high position in your chuch, then you are not qualified to say what the church does or doesn't stand for.

I can interpret US Law may own way if I want, but I'd be a fool to claim to be an authority on it.

[C K Dexter Haven]

Also, Pruf, Orthodox Jews generally do not go straight back to the Torah for justification. There are a number of laws in the Torah that were meant for the Israelites at that time, and that have since been changed or outmoded by the rabbis -- for instance, having more than one wife is clearly permitted in the Torah, but is outlawed by the rabbis later. Similarly some of the laws about wiping out the conquered population of a city; the rabbis decided those applied only to those particular conquests (in the time of Joshua, Samuel, etc) and not to all conquests. That's rabbinic.

Lighting candles to usher in the Sabbath and holidays is also rabbinic.

To the Orthodox and Conservative, rabbinic tradition is as binding (arguably more binding) than the Torah read straight.

[cmkeller]

Prufrock:

Girls wearing shorts: "Revealing one's nakedness" is a commonly used term in the Torah to describe illicit sexual relations. Showing too much flesh is considered a sub-sin of that (although only genuine illicit sex is punishable in the way the Torah says). The various parts of one's body that are included in that are derived from Biblical verses. The thigh, specifically, is mentioned in Isaiah 47:2, "Expose a thigh and cross rivers, your nakedness will be exposed." Thus, the thigh is compared to "nakedness," the implications of which I mentioned above.

Car on Shabbos was covered by Keeves.

The skull cap: The Talmud learns from the verse in Isaiah 6:3 "The whole world is filled with his (G-d's) glory" that one must not walk in a haughty manner (which implies lordship, and no man has that even over parcels of land he owns...only G-d). After making this statement, it mentions one Rabbi Huna, son of Rabbi Joshua, who never walked with his head uncovered, as an indication that G-d is always above him. This practice (which is not an end in and of itself, but was adopted as a means to avoid walking haughtily) was adopted by the Jewish communities at large. Some Sepahrdic (Middle Eastern-descended) Jews never did adopt the custom.

Chaim Mattis Keller

[Kryptonite]

"I want to present her with actual passages (or whatever) from these texts to show her that much of what these right-wing fanatics do (I think of the orthodox Jews much in the same way as the right-wing Christians, or, for that matter, the Koresh-type cults) are just interpretations of vague text or silly traditions that some rabbi thought up some 2,000 years ago."

LOL, I can't stop laughing!!! Can anyone quote me some sections of the Consitution that show why democracy is a vague concept that could never work? hehe.

i never thought i'd see someone against modesty??? i was raised in an orthodox home and might not agree with everything i was taught but i don't think of modern orthodxy as wrong or the farthest of what judaism was meant to be. also there is a big difference between unobservance and being of the reform movement. i think an enormous amount of jews are not classified correctly, any thoughts on that?

[Prufrock]

Quick update on my sister...

I was speaking to her yesterday, and she was telling me about why women are supposed to wear a head-covering. It has something to do w/ some guy who suspected his wife of cheating on him. He takes her to the head rabbi, who, for some reason, starts inspecting her skull and messes up her hair. I don't think I really got the whole point of the story, but somehow the Orthodox and Hassidic Jews interpreted this to mean that all women had to wear a head-covering. So, my sister tells me that she has decided to not wear the head-covering because she doen't agree w/ the interpretation. Wow! She is trying to think for herself!

Oh, and as for the "I don't believe in modesty" remark, where the heck did you get that from? Are you saying that wearing shorts somehow makes a person an exhibitionist? I'm not talking about daisy-duke, ass-hanging-out shorts either...just regular shorts that the Orthodox Jews forbid women (and, men too, I think) from wearing.

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[C K Dexter Haven]

Pruf, be aware that for most of these rituals or traditions, there is usually one origin or explanation... but traditions that date back centuries (or millenia) have gathered their own sets of stories and quaint tales and interesting legends and interpretations around them. So there are several tales about head-coverings.

It sounds like your fears are unwarranted (which is what most of us said) -- she is exploring a very interesting realm, and she will make up her own mind, and that's how it should be. L'shana tova.

[Keeves]

Wow! She is trying to think for herself!Pruf, I don't know you, and I don't know your sister. But if thought so little of her that you're surprised that she's thinking for herself, then perhaps you owe her an apology. Or a compliment. Or something.

[Keeves]

It has something to do w/ some guy who suspected his wife of cheating on him. He takes her to the head rabbi, who, for some reason, starts inspecting her skull and messes up her hair. I don't think I really got the whole point of the story, but somehow the Orthodox and Hassidic Jews interpreted this to mean that all women had to wear a head-covering.Numbers 5:18. Check it out yourself.

If a wife is suspected of cheating on her husband, there is a ritual potion she must drink; this is designed to either induce her to admit her guilt, or vindicate her if guilty. Prior to that, her hair is uncovered to shame her for getting into this compromising situation to begin with. From the way the verse tells us that her hair is to be uncovered, it is understood that standard practice for married Jewish women is to cover their hair.

[C K Dexter Haven]

I add the footnote that the trial by ordeal (drink a magic potion and it reveals your guilt) mentioned by Keeves has not been used for over 2,000 years.

[JoltSucker]

Prufrock, your situation remind me a little bit of the one I had with my dad when I was growing up, so I'll share that long story that I've mentioned before.

My dad was the son of a Methodist preacher, and like a lot of preacher's sons, got disillusioned. He eventually rolled his own version of Pantheism. I was brought up Presbyterian, not because I needed to be a Christian but because I needed to "have the influence of the Western European Judeo-Christian tradition" (my dad is a full-of-it intellectual).

At 18, I became a born-again Christian. A year later, I became a "Charismatic" (aka "Holy Roller") Christian. My dad was apoplectic. To him, Christianity in and of itself was meaningless, and I was under the influence of mob mentality. We had more unpleasant mealtime religious debates than I can remember. We eventually had to declare an uneasy truce.

As a fairly intelligent, critical-thinking person with left-leaning politics, I never fit in easily with Christian faith-before-intellect right-wingers, but I was able tolerate the pig-headed ignoramouses (that wanted to run other people's lives) that I went to church with.

Eventually I got involved in a Christian cult (part of the "Sheparding" movement) that was into controlling people's personal lives (although I didn't know it at the time). That's where I met my wife. As things got wierder and wierder, we made the decision to get out. We engaged and married not long after that, and lived for many years without any kind of religious observance (we had such a sour taste in our mouths from the situation).

Now my wife came from a non-observant Jewish family who occasionally went to a Conservative congregation. My father-in-law once commented to my sister-in-law (upon her becoming a "Messianic Jew" (don't yell at me, her term)) "Christianity! Judaism! It's all crap! But Judaism is our crap!" When she became a Christian, it was always felt unnatural for her, and she was constantly struggling with doubt and very unhappy with it.

So after my wife and I had been married and not observing any kind of religion she was glad to not be going to church, and I still had such a sour taste in my mouth that I didn't press the issue. Eventually she was drawn back to Judaism, began counselling with a Reform rabbi, and took a "Basic Judaism" class with a Conservative rabbi.

She decided to return to Judaism, and we decided to bring our children up as Jews, while I continue to remain Christian. By the way, coming from a Protestant heritage, I am quite comfortable with the concept of personal interpretation, hence that's why Reform is the best fit for me culturally.

My children are being brought up in a strongly Jewish household, and so my parents have had to reconcile themselves with the fact that we don't celebrate Christmas or Easter with them. My dad has attended Selichot service with me, and sends up holiday greetings on the various Jewish Holidays.

My point in this long story is that both my wife and I took a long, convoluted journey, but turned out OK. It may not have been what our families thought they wanted, but we're OK nonetheless. All the yelling and consternation of our families didn't factor into this result, it was us using our own good minds, our sense of self-esteem, and the guiding hand of G-d that got us here. If your sister has those things, she'll do fine in the long run.

[corvidae]

Joltsucker,
Your story sounds a little like the family I married into. My mother-in-law converted to orthodox Judaism, but still remains very close to her family- and from what I can see, everyone is at peace with her decision.

It seems to have been a real learning experience for everyone. Our wedding was orthodox, which was pretty strange for all the non-Jews (odd ceremony, separate dancing). Everyone had a fantastic time, though, and at the end of the evening, I didn't know who was jewish and who wasn't (everyone was saying mazel tov and wearing kipas).

This degree of acceptance may not be the norm, but I feel really fortunate to be part of this give-and-take situation.

corvidae

[OldBroad]

Religion doesn't seem to be the question. A couple of folks got it right. IT IS ABOUT CHOICES.

It is always difficult to watch people we love make decisions with which we disagree. Personally, I've watch a son and a daughter make some bad choices. It hurts.


We're not talking about logic here. This is emotion; and the fact is that we're powerless to control other people's emotions. We're powerless to prevent people from making bad decisions. Most of all we are incapable of making decisions for any but ourselves.

More than one previous poster has advised calm and unemotional conversation. That's about all you can do. Then be prepared to provide support. I second the motion.



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[OldBroad]

Clarification of my previous post:

I don't mean to imply that I actually believe that Prufrock's sister is making a bad decision - so far only Prufrock seems to believe that.


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[Keeves]

Oops, you got me 100%. It was done only in the Temple in Jerusalem. Thanks, Dex.

[Prufrock]

Good Lord! (pun intended) Dozens of responses, and only 2 or 3 people actually responding to my question. Most of the other reponders are using their junior psychology degree to tell me that I should let my sister make her own decision. Just a quick note, I am even LESS likely to take the advice of a bunch of strangers than my sister is to take my advice.

My only request throughout this entire discussion was for some quotes or passages that the Orthodox Jews use to justify certain acts that I consider oppressive and damaging to my sister. If she joined some new age cult and she was happy (and safe) I'd deal with it. But, she's miserable. She just started college, and is having trouble making friends because she feels compelled to be friends with Orthdox Jews (this is small, liberal arts school, so it's unlikely she's going to meet many there) She's also leaving the school every Friday because there isn't an orthodox temple. She has to dress a certain way, and eat a certain way and live a certain way that's making it impossible to have a social life.

So, if finding religion leaves her depressed, I'm going to do what I can to help her. I feel that providing her with facts is a way to help her. I appreciate the personal stories and the few posters that have actually tried to help me, but I'm not interested in a religious debate. I'm looking for facts.

[C K Dexter Haven]

Pruf, you've been told several times -- the "facts" that you're looking for DO NOT EXIST.

If you want texts debunking Orthodox practices as irrelevant to the modern world, the oldest texts you'll be able to find will be from the Reform Movement in the mid 1800s.

There are no such "ancient" texts -- unless you want to quote New Testament to her. The only such ancient texts would be from small sects that tried to interpret or reinterpret various passages to suit their own purposes; and that died out long, long ago (such as the Essenes.)

[John W. Kennedy]

CKDextHavn -> You aren't reading his question. He didn't ask for anti-Orthodox texts (of which there are more than you think, anyway), he asked for Orthodox texts, in order to refute them.

Prufrock -> I have avoided responding directly until now, seeing that I'm a Gentile and a Christian, but it looks like one or two wise words are in order.

This is not a simple issue, and you're not likely to find many people combining both the expertise and the desire to aid you. You will find that most of the Orthodox rules are based on the Torah (the first five books of the O.T., Genesis through Deuteronomy), but the rules themselves are to be found in the Talmud, a very long (many, many, many volumes) and technical collection of legal rulings, and I'm not even sure it's completely available in English or any other modern language. Frankly, if you try to argue in that area, you'll stand about the same chances as a non-English-speaking non-Lawyer trying to argue Constitutional Law pro se in the Supreme Court.

Part of the problem is that there hasn't been a recognized central Jewish authority in many centuries, which has meant that Orthodox Jews have taken a very conservative approach to all modern questions, such as "Is turning on an electric light really the same thing as starting a fire?" One of the most ancient rabbinical proverbs is "Build a fence around Torah," meaning that day-to-day rules should provide a safety zone, so that even if you cross the line, you probably won't stray into the actually forbidden area. When you don't have anyone to make a definitive ruling, that tends to make the pro-tem safety zone even wider.

There are also basic philosophical differences with A) Christianity and B) the modern world. For example, Orthodox and Conservative Judaism (and maybe the rest, for all I know to the contrary) both recognize the concept of an "unwitting sin".

I am puzzled as to one issue. An Orthodox Jew, a fortiori a right-wing one (which the reference to Darwin seems to indicate), would not normally date a Gentile. If you (and your sister) are, in fact, Gentiles, then something else is going on here that I don't understand. If, on the other hand, you are Jewish yourself, you should really be discussing this with a rabbi, who will be much bettter prepared to handle the intellectual side, and will also have a better notion of the exact flavor of Orthodoxy you're dealing with.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[Prufrock]

Thanks, Kennedy. Yes, we're Jewsish (by birth, anyway) I don't have a rabbi as I am not a big fan of organized religion in general (for me, personally...it works great for some people.) I've been trying to work on my own personal spirituality, but this isn't much help to my sister. Your explanation helped a great deal, though. That, and the referral to another website explaining that the Talmud was written by rabbis as opposed to being the supposedly exact words of God, has helped me immensely. Thanks!

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[JoltSucker]

Prufrock, whether or not you're comfortable with organized religion, you're way out of your depth here. It sounds like you need to talk to a friendly, non-judgemental rabbi. Many are just that, actual mensches (sp?). Sure, some are pig-headed pricks, but if you run into one, call the next synagogue.

If your sister is as miserable as you say, it won't last forever. It might last for a long time, but not forever. But do you have actual gripes, or just a complaint of "Oh my God, she's gone religious!" If it's the later, then perhaps you're the one with the problem. She may end up going Conservative, but still very religious. Would you be happy, or still upset that she's taking this stuff too seriously?

It sounds like you're in a Reform kind of place, and your sister is obviously checking out Orthodoxy. When you look up rabbis, why don't you split the difference and go looking for a nice, patient Conservative one?

[C K Dexter Haven]

<< CKDextHavn -> You aren't reading his question. He didn't ask for anti-Orthodox texts (of which there are more than you think, anyway), he asked for Orthodox texts, in order to refute them. >>

Well, that's what I thought I said... you won't find any ORTHODOX texts that refute Orthodoxy.

[John W. Kennedy]

Well, that's what I thought I said... you won't find any ORTHODOX texts that refute Orthodoxy.


Actually, you will. The vast numerical majority of Talmudic text is commentary on commentary, and (just as with the Supreme Court) the dissenting opinions are included.

But again, what he actual said was (paraphrasing): "I want to know where these texts are, so I can study them and refute them." Now, I know enough about the subject to know that an unprepared layman going to do battle in that area is going to end up toast, which is why I recommend that he confer with a Rabbi (left-wing Conservative would probably be the safest bet). But that's what he was actually asking for.

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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams

[curwin]

bump