"I shot expert in basic training."

[Crafter_Man]

I like to shoot guns, and over the years hundreds of friends and acquaintances have stopped by my place to shoot. Many are military veterans. Each and every former service member told me they shot "expert" while in basic training. Just this evening, I and a student of mine were talking about guns, and she casually mentioned she was in the Air Force ten years ago and shot "expert" in Basic.

Just what are the requirements for shooting "expert" in basic training? I mean no disrespect by this, but quite a few of the former service members who have shot at my place were mediocre shots at best. Perhaps they were once "expert" shots, and just got rusty? I don't know.

[Martin Hyde]

It's not particularly meaningful, in the Army and Marines to complete initial training you have to earn a Marksmanship Badge. The badge has three ranks, Expert, Sharpshooter, and Marksman. Marksman is the lowest, Expert is the highest. It's based on hitting a certain % of targets, I believe Expert requires you to hit 36 out of 40 targets at something like 50-300 yard range.

These badges actually exist for a variety of weapons, including mortar, flamethrower, et cetera, and the requirements are probably different for different ones.

Almost everyone in the Army or Marines gets their Marksman rank badge pretty easily (and since it is required, that isn't surprising.) Expert is harder and requires a bit more effort, but it's not rare by any means. It doesn't mean the person was a trained sniper or anything of the sort.

If they say they graduated from sniper school that would carry more meaning than an Expert Marksmanship Badge, but mind even sniper school is only like five weeks and there's a massive difference between someone who graduates that program and never does anything with it and someone who spends lots of time in the field as an actual sniper, and/or who maintains that level of proficiency through training.

There's also the President's Hundred Tab which is given to the top 100 shooters at the NRA sponsored President's Rifle Matches. That Tab will generally indicate someone who is legit with marksmanship and would probably be capable of impressing serious competition shooters.

Real combat prowess isn't necessarily strongly related to any of the aforementioned qualifications and abilities.

[LSLGuy]

IIRC back in the 80s the USAF had small arms qualifications with either the .30 Spl S&W revolver or the M-16A1.

Shooting "expert" wasn't all that hard.

Somebody who couldn't control a massive flinch or wouldn't follow range safety procedures wouldn't even qualify. Everybody else would qualify. Of those qualifying in one or the other weapon, probably 1/3rd made the "expert" cutoff.

The standards were based on hitting a man-sized silhouette target at various ranges & from various static stances. A hit was a hit; a miss was a miss. There was no concept of a bullseye or differing points for better or lesser hits. So in theory somebody could make expert having never hit a silhouette anywhere but along the edges of the shoulders.

The .38 course was shot with plain lead ball ammo, and the M-16 course was shot with a .22LR sub-caliber adaptor against sub-scale silhouettes at closer ranges (50%?). Some genuine .223 ammo was used in part of the training, but not when shooting for quals.


I can easily imagine somebody who's pretty useless by civilian target range standards who actually did qualify as "expert" in the USAF last week, much less 15 years ago.

[Jman]

Expert can be easier or harder depending on the weapon and range. 9mm? Easy to qualify expert. M16 - medium difficulty on paper targets, pretty hard on popups, though not super rare. I generally qualified Sharpshooter on the M16 (with the occasional Expert) and Expert on the 9mm.

[YogSosoth]

These badges actually exist for a variety of weapons, including mortar, flamethrower, et cetera, and the requirements are probably different for different ones.

WTF? Flamethrower??? How do I get in on one of these tests??!?!?

[MsRobyn]

You're also looking at selection and confirmation biases. The people who shot expert were probably already shooting when they joined, so they came in with a certain amount of expertise and skill that most recruits wouldn't have.

[JerseyMarine2092]

When I was in the Marine Corps I shot Sharpshooter, the middle category. It was a fairly average score.

The Marines at the time shot from the 200 to 500 yard line, in what was known as the KD range. The targets' range was known, and they weren't moving. The course is really designed to focus on the fundamentals of shooting.

At the 200 yard line you would shoot 5 rounds standing, 5 round kneeling, and 5 rounds standing. For this course of fire you would shoot a round, and they would pull and mark it after each shot.

Then there was a 10 round rapid fire at the 200 yard line. You would fire 2 five round magazines in rapid succession designed to test target retention. You'd do the first 5 standing and the second 5 kneeling. The targets at the 200 yard line were a 12 inch black disc iirc.

Then you moved to the 300 yard line where you would do 5 rounds kneeling slow fire (shoot, mark target, repeat). Followed up with a 10 round prone rapid fire. The 300 yard line is shot at what was called a B-mod target. I don't remember what the dimensions were, but it represented a man in prone.

Then you'd do 10 rounds at the 500 yard line. This was done in the prone position, slow fire. Target was a Dog target, which represented a man standing in the open.

... I wrote a bit about the scoring system, but to be honest I don't remember it any more. Half way through my enlistment they changed the system which only helps blur it in my memory.

All firing, at least at that time, was done with a sling but with iron sights. No ACOG or CCO.

The was also a course of fire that was more combat oriented. It was a mere no or no go sort of thing though.

I'm now in the Army and they have a pop target course with targets ranging from 50 yards to 300 yards. There are 40 targets, with 20 from the prone and 20 from the kneeling. I was allowed to use my CCO. After not picking up a rifle for 4 years I shot a 36. Easy as hell with the optics.

[SanDiegoTim]

Marines, 1969...200, 300 & 500.

[robby]

I'm a former Navy officer, and was required to qualify on a .45 caliber pistol. On my first attempt on the qualification course, I shot well enough to get the "Expert" rating. Unlike many (most?) Navy officers going through a similar qualification course, I'd done a bit of target shooting previously, and actually owned a pistol of my own. However, I certainly wouldn't consider myself a true expert marksman--I'm really just an average shot.

The Navy course was much more focused on real-world application (as the Navy saw it). Any hit on the target counted as a hit; you had to fire rapidly, with little time taken to aim each shot; and a portion of the course was completed with the pistol being held in the "non-dominant hand" (to simulate an injury to the dominant hand). You also shot from a variety of shooting positions, at varying ranges. The closest ranges were ridiculously close (3 yards). The farthest was either 15 or 25 yards.

[Uncertain]

The title sounded like a description of a training mishap by a non-native English speaker.

[Malacandra]

The title sounded like a description of a training mishap by a non-native English speaker.

"I shot expert in basic training, just to watch him die".

[psychonaut]

It's not particularly meaningful, in the Army and Marines to complete initial training you have to earn a Marksmanship Badge.So could draftees get out of the military (or at least out of a combat assignment) by purposely failing marksmanship training?

[Spavined Gelding]

So could draftees get out of the military (or at least out of a combat assignment) by purposely failing marksmanship training?

No, but they might be given a non-optional opportunity to try again.

I don’t remember what I shot in basic. What I do remember is that after a week on the ranges I was black and blue from my neck down to my elbow. That was with the M-14 which did have a hell of a recoil.

The pistol course was 24 rounds with the old .45 at torso sizes silhouette targets at 10 or 20 yards. Not a tough test unless you were afraid of the weapon. Unlike the rifle course, myopia was no impediment in the pistol course. I could not even see the 600 yard target on the rifle range.

The course that was the most fun was with the M-60 machine gun.

[steronz]

Air Force here -- I did not shoot expert. We actually have a ribbon for it. Because we don't get enough worthless ribbons.

There was "passing", which was something like 30/40 in the targets. The target was actually 25 yards away, but had a bunch of those little human shaped blobs that simulated distances up to, I think, 200 yards. Simulated distance though.

In any case, I think expert was getting 37/40 in the blobs. There were 19 year old girls who had never fired an air pistol in their lives who managed to get expert, and there were experience hunters who were handed crappy weapons and missed it. FWIW, you fire a whopping 80 rounds in basic training. 40 for practice, then 40 to qualify.

Long story short, shooting expert in the Air Force doesn't amount to much. I almost got it on the M9 and I'm about the last person on earth you want holding a gun.

[Scuba_Ben]

Air Force here -- I did not shoot expert. We actually have a ribbon for it. Because we don't get enough worthless ribbons.

Every USAF officer I've talked with about their "fruit salad" has said that all the ribbons other than the first row or two are for just showing up. Which is why I only ask about the first row.

[Chefguy]

Navy Seabee here. We shot a 200 yard/200 point course in prone, sitting and offhand, at bullseye targets. There were three levels of accomplishment: marksman, sharpshooter, expert. I don't remember the cutoff scores for each. And yes, I never qualified less than expert with a rifle or pistol in 23 years, but then I grew up with guns. One year I even set the range record with 198/200 points. I was also on a rifle competition team at one point, where we fired on 200-300-500 yd ranges.

[Sicks Ate]

JerseyMarine2092 got it right. I was a range coach (and pistol expert, and 3-award rifle expert) in the Marine Corps around the same time. The scoring and targets changed a bit, but the course of fire was roughly the same.

The biggest difference between the Marine Corps qualification and that of the other branches is the yardage; as far as I know, everyone else stops at 300 yards, while the M.C. goes out to 5 (and let me tell you, it is FUN to ding a target with iron sights from 500 yards).

Having coached dozens of shooters, and having missed expert before, myself, I can attest that 'shooting expert', in the Marine Corps anyway, is a difficult task.

[Elendil's Heir]

"I shot expert in basic training, just to watch him die".

Thank you, Sergeant Cash.

[fumster]

WTF? Flamethrower??? How do I get in on one of these tests??!?!?They are held in San Francisco.

[RandMcnally]

Not in Basic, but I too shot expert on the M4 while in the Air Force. As others have said, it really isn't that big of a deal. Like, at all. It isn't worth the pain of having to get a whole new ribbon set and everything.

Every time I've shot the pistol though I score a 36. Every. Time. At least I'm consistent.

[Bear_Nenno]

If someone tells me "I shot expert at Basic training" I assume they never fired it since.

[Turble]

So could draftees get out of the military (or at least out of a combat assignment) by purposely failing marksmanship training?

Not necessarily. Army 1966, Fort Gordon, Georgia.

If they announced their intention to fail or if their intent was obvious, on the day of the re-test they would be assigned to KP duty and a sergeant would take their dog tags and one of their shirts with a name tag on it. When their stuff got returned, they were told that they had qualified.

[Sicks Ate]

If someone tells me "I shot expert at Basic training" I assume they never fired it since.


That's a good way to think about it...

[Chefguy]

JerseyMarine2092 got it right. I was a range coach (and pistol expert, and 3-award rifle expert) in the Marine Corps around the same time. The scoring and targets changed a bit, but the course of fire was roughly the same.

The biggest difference between the Marine Corps qualification and that of the other branches is the yardage; as far as I know, everyone else stops at 300 yards, while the M.C. goes out to 5 (and let me tell you, it is FUN to ding a target with iron sights from 500 yards).

Having coached dozens of shooters, and having missed expert before, myself, I can attest that 'shooting expert', in the Marine Corps anyway, is a difficult task.

Yeah, 500 yards is a bitch, even in prone with no wind. Add a little breeze to the mix and a .223 round does a fancy dance going downrange.

[RickJay]

You're also looking at selection and confirmation biases. The people who shot expert were probably already shooting when they joined, so they came in with a certain amount of expertise and skill that most recruits wouldn't have.
When I joined the Canadian Forces I was scoring at the highest levels right off the bat, and I'd never touched a firearm before. The only time I've ever fired live ammo was on our range days and other times we had a chance to blow off some ammo. Maybe 20 in all, tops.

I think a lot of its has to do with your heart rate or your central nervous system, as my father was also an excellent shot.

But that said, almost anyone with some practice could get at least a very good score on standard range distances of 100 to 200 metres. Military rifles are accurate and easy to use, so in perfect conditions at ranges where wind doesn't have much impact, it's really not very difficult.

[SanDiegoTim]

"The biggest difference between the Marine Corps qualification and that of the other branches is the yardage; as far as I know, everyone else stops at 300 yards, while the M.C. goes out to 5 (and let me tell you, it is FUN to ding a target with iron sights from 500 yards)."

Echoing these comments, and never having fired a gun or rifle before boot camp, it really is a tribute to MC marksmanship training to place several rounds on target at 500 yds, especially with iron sights on an M-14.

[Balthisar]

In my Army basic training (1989) I only ever qualified as marksman, and I think I only ever got sharpshooter a couple of times during yearly requalification. That was with the M16. I did qualify expert, though, on the M203 grenade launcher in Germany the only time I ever used it. I don't think I got to wear that one on my uniform, though. They were just paint grenades, too.

[Spavined Gelding]

It is my recollection that when I fired for rifle qualification in 1965 at Fort Riley it was with the M-14 on a “Trainfire Range” with pop-up silhouette targets at ranges from 25 yards (or meters, not sure which) out to 600 yards. The 600 yard target was a mere nick on the horizon but some guys were routinely knocking it down shooting off-hand. The rifles were zeroed at 250 yards (that took a day on the 1000 inch range to get the whole company zeroed) and every thing else was simply shot by Kentucky Windage. The close targets took a little getting use to since a dead on center of target aim meant the bullet was passing over the target altogether.

Generally the shooting was fun, it was cleaning the weapon every night that was a pain, especially dipping the parts in boiling water in a garbage can out in the company street.

After that first qualification all of my range work with the rifle was for familiarization, not for record. The M-14, the .45 cal pistol and the M-60 MG are all I ever formally qualified on. As far as I know all of those weapons are out of the active arm’s inventory.


At Fort Leonard Wood in 1967-69, if a kid didn’t honestly qualify as something he was recycled and did it again until he at least shot marksman. It may well be that some draftees spent their whole two year tour endlessly shooting for qualification. I doubt that because even a blind man with the shakes (such as myself) could qualify once he gave it an honest effort.

[Sicks Ate]

The 600 yard target was a mere nick on the horizon but some guys were routinely knocking it down shooting off-hand. The rifles were zeroed at 250 yards (that took a day on the 1000 inch range to get the whole company zeroed) and every thing else was simply shot by Kentucky Windage. The close targets took a little getting use to since a dead on center of target aim meant the bullet was passing over the target altogether.

Highly skeptical of this?

You're telling me that someone with a rifled zeroed at 250 yds, using no sight adjustments to windage or elevation (only shifting point-of-aim), and standing up, can regularly hit a rifle target at 600 yards using iron sigts?

Also, with a BZO (battle-sight zero) of 250 yards, aiming dead center of a target from from 0 - 250 yards should strike within about +/- 6 vertical inches of the point-of-aim. I am familiar with a 5.56/.223 round, mind you, I would imagine the the .308/7.62 round the M14 fired would behave similarly.

Maybe I am mis-remembering what I learned, but it seems like a stretch.

[Bear_Nenno]

The M-14, the .45 cal pistol and the M-60 MG are all I ever formally qualified on. As far as I know all of those weapons are out of the active arm’s inventory.

The Army still routinely uses the M14, though you may not recognize it.
http://img151.imageshack.us/i/1000097m.jpg/

[The Great Sun Jester]

It's not particularly meaningful, in the Army and Marines to complete initial training you have to earn a Marksmanship Badge. The badge has three ranks, Expert, Sharpshooter, and Marksman. Marksman is the lowest, Expert is the highest. It's based on hitting a certain % of targets, I believe Expert requires you to hit 36 out of 40 targets at something like 50-300 yard range.

As I recall, 4 of those pop ups were at 300 yards.

The strategy to getting expert was: "DON'T PULL THE TRIGGER ON THE 300 YARD TARGET OR I WILL PT YOUR ASS UNTIL YOU FUCKING DIE!" or something like that. You save those 4 shots so you have an extra try or two in case you miss one of the closer targets. That way, you have a much better chance of getting 36/40.

I shot 40/40 on qualification day--despite hearing my drill sergent bellowing obscenities at me whenever I popped the 300. He did not PT me, however. He had me coach a couple other guys. I told them to NEVER shoot at the 300 target. :D

[Sicks Ate]

I shot 40/40 on qualification day--despite hearing my drill sergent bellowing obscenities at me whenever I popped the 300. He did not PT me, however. He had me coach a couple other guys. I told them to NEVER shoot at the 300 target. :D


Was it also disctracting having to mutter under your breath, before each shot, 'you killed my father, prepare to die'?

:D

[The Great Sun Jester]

Was it also disctracting having to mutter under your breath, before each shot, 'you killed my father, prepare to die'? :D

"You're using Mussolini's defense against me, eh?"
"I though it fitting, given the extended trenchwork."
"Naturally you must suspect me to attack with Napoleon?"
"Naturaly, but I find von Stuben cancels out Napoleon. Don't you?"
"Unless the enemy has studied his Patton ... which I have!"

[Spavined Gelding]

Highly skeptical of this?

You're telling me that someone with a rifled zeroed at 250 yds, using no sight adjustments to windage or elevation (only shifting point-of-aim), and standing up, can regularly hit a rifle target at 600 yards using iron sigts?

I watched it. I said it. I meant it. I can remember a few names if you want them.

[Chefguy]

Navy boot camp fam firing was a hoot. Having grown up with guns, I had no problems, but I kept hearing the rangemaster on the loudspeaker saying things like: "Number 23, you're firing on number 30's target." "Number 31, please open your eyes and keep that weapon pointed downrange." "Range coach: pull number 12 offline IMMEDIATELY!" "Number 23, you're STILL shooting at number 30's target." "Range coach, please inform number 31 that he needs to load the weapon before pulling the trigger."

I was laughing so hard, I was afraid I'd be pulled offline and made to PT.

[Capitaine Zombie]

They are held in San Francisco.

ha, the elusive "Flamboyant" Ribbon.

[Bear_Nenno]

Also, with a BZO (battle-sight zero) of 250 yards, aiming dead center of a target from from 0 - 250 yards should strike within about +/- 6 vertical inches of the point-of-aim. I am familiar with a 5.56/.223 round, mind you, I would imagine the the .308/7.62 round the M14 fired would behave similarly.

Maybe I am mis-remembering what I learned, but it seems like a stretch.

A 250m BZO would have him hitting exactly 4.6cm high at 25m. But give him a break, it almost 50 years ago!!!

You're telling me that someone with a rifled zeroed at 250 yds, using no sight adjustments to windage or elevation (only shifting point-of-aim), and standing up, can regularly hit a rifle target at 600 yards using iron sigts?Shooting past 300m should have been done on the bipod out to 700m. The rear sight did allow for elevation adjustments, which is likely what the other people actually hitting the targets consistantly were using.
But like I said, I wouldn't hold it against someone for misremembering (or possibly remembering poor instruction) something from 50 years ago.

[Sicks Ate]

A 250m BZO would have him hitting exactly 4.6cm high at 25m.


To be really specific, a 7.62 round would strike 4.6 cm high. A .308 round would strike 1-4/5" high :)

[JerseyMarine2092]

600m offhanded shooting with iron sights is a helluva feat of marksmanship. I read that as they were shooting with their non-dominant hand from the standing. Is that correct?

The 500 yard line was called out money maker in the Marine Corps. Despite the distance, you had the most stable firing position. You'd do all your firing from the prone, with the sling wrapped around you bicep for added stability. The M16A2's rear sight allow for range adjustments. All you had to do was ensure you'd get good sight picture and then don't farking move. At 500 yards the front sight post was the same width as the dog target. You'd just have to cut it in half with the top part of the post.

[Spavined Gelding]

Ah ha! I have been challenged on the credibility of my memory. A dispute without any possibility of satisfactory resolution.

In clarification and defense:

The close in targets were head size pop-ups. You knew where they were going to pop-up from the channel dug in the dirt by near misses. You did not know, however, when they were going to pop-up. Sometimes you didn’t even know a target was up at all until someone down the line opened up, then you started looking in earnest. In any event, on the head size target if you aimed dead center on the face or maybe right between where the eyes should have been you were going to miss and you were going to see dirt thrown up behind the target. The true aiming point was the point of where the chin should have been or maybe a bit lower. Sometimes the target was sufficiently behind a bream that all you could see from the prone or foxhole position was a narrow slice of the top of the head.

At 250 yards you should get a clean hit in the center of the target by aiming at the center of the target.

At 600 yards the secret, so the guys who were hitting it said, was to lay the front sight over the target and then lower until you could see just the top of the target’s head poking above the middle of the front sight. I’ll be dammed if I know that was true. I hardly ever saw the 600 yard target and then only in the early morning with the light behind me. I just fired at the horizon and hoped for the best -- my not hit ‘em but I might scare ‘em.

By off hand I mean standing position without a support. Technical term - shooting off the hand, not from a bench or a sandbag. The qualification course was shot from four positions, standing (off-hand), kneeling or seated (your choice), prone and out of a sunken culvert with a sandbag. I think we fired eight or maybe ten rounds from each position and 16 or 20 from the culvert/fox hole. At any rate the litany of “with eight rounds ball ammunition lock and load” still resonates.

[Chefguy]

600m offhanded shooting with iron sights is a helluva feat of marksmanship. I read that as they were shooting with their non-dominant hand from the standing. Is that correct?

The 500 yard line was called out money maker in the Marine Corps. Despite the distance, you had the most stable firing position. You'd do all your firing from the prone, with the sling wrapped around you bicep for added stability. The M16A2's rear sight allow for range adjustments. All you had to do was ensure you'd get good sight picture and then don't farking move. At 500 yards the front sight post was the same width as the dog target. You'd just have to cut it in half with the top part of the post.

Not to mention that at 500 yards and beyond, you're shooting beyond the weapon's official maximum effective range of 400 yards (IIRC). I was pretty deadly with a rifle, but at that range, it was tough to consistently get it near the bull. We had one guy on the team, however, who must have had telescopic vision and probably should have been a sniper instead of a carpenter.

[Moonlitherial]

Navy boot camp fam firing was a hoot. Having grown up with guns, I had no problems, but I kept hearing the rangemaster on the loudspeaker saying things like: "Number 23, you're firing on number 30's target." "Number 31, please open your eyes and keep that weapon pointed downrange." "Range coach: pull number 12 offline IMMEDIATELY!" "Number 23, you're STILL shooting at number 30's target." "Range coach, please inform number 31 that he needs to load the weapon before pulling the trigger."

I was laughing so hard, I was afraid I'd be pulled offline and made to PT.

I would have fit in very well there. I had been target shooting with the .22 rifle dad bought me when I was 10 so I was convinced the range would be no problem.

BIG problem. We did our range testing with the FNC1 which is not a little girl gun. At the time I was about 100lbs. When shooting prone my instructor had to stand on my back to keep me from being pushed backwards several inches with each shot. I had bruises on my face and shoulder and I finally passed thanks to a charming young man with a sharp pencil in the bunker. Never fired another weapon while in the airforce.

[JerseyMarine2092]

Ah ha! I have been challenged on the credibility of my memory. A dispute without any possibility of satisfactory resolution

I took you for your word to be honest. I've seen some crazy impressive shooting myself. I just needed clarification because I'll occasionally hear off-handed to mean firing with your weak hand. I know when I fire from the left side my accuracy goes to hell. My movements are way to jerky, and I loose most of the other fundamentals besides send a bunch of lead down range.

[aceplace57]

You folks are better than Oswald. Best he did was Sharpshooter.

Sometimes being lucky is better than being good. A lot of people still say that shot he made in Dealey Plaza was pure luck.

`------Oswald's Marine Rifle Scores------

Even after weeks of practice and intensive training, Oswald barely managed to qualify at the level of "Sharpshooter," the middle of three rifle qualification levels in the Marines. He obtained a score of 212, two points above the minimum for the "Sharpshooter" level. In other words, even after extensive training and practice, and even though he was firing at stationary targets with a semi-automatic rifle and had plenty of time to shoot (even during the so-called "rapid-fire" phase), Oswald narrowly missed scoring at the lowest possible qualification level.

The next time Oswald fired for record in the Marines, he barely managed to qualify at all, obtaining a score of 191, which was one point above the minimum needed for the lowest qualification level, "Marksman." To put it another way, he came within two points of failing to qualify.
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/griffith/oswald_poor_shot.html

[Gray Ghost]

600m offhanded shooting with iron sights is a helluva feat of marksmanship. I read that as they were shooting with their non-dominant hand from the standing. Is that correct?

The 500 yard line was called out money maker in the Marine Corps. Despite the distance, you had the most stable firing position. You'd do all your firing from the prone, with the sling wrapped around you bicep for added stability. The M16A2's rear sight allow for range adjustments. All you had to do was ensure you'd get good sight picture and then don't farking move. At 500 yards the front sight post was the same width as the dog target. You'd just have to cut it in half with the top part of the post.

Jersey (and others), how did you guys handle wind? Did you have range flags/dope the mirage, and then made windage adjustments accordingly? Did you apply Kentucky windage? Obviously, I've never been in the service. Most of my rifle shooting has been either benchrest or 4-position gallery, or we simply didn't do a lot of it when the wind was really going.

[JerseyMarine2092]

Jersey (and others), how did you guys handle wind? Did you have range flags/dope the mirage, and then made windage adjustments accordingly? Did you apply Kentucky windage? Obviously, I've never been in the service. Most of my rifle shooting has been either benchrest or 4-position gallery, or we simply didn't do a lot of it when the wind was really going.

We make windage adjustments on the rear sight aperture. There's a bunch of range flags, 4 or so on the firing line, and 4 on the berm that you judge the wind off of.

That's all on the KD range. For combat fires we use good ole' Kentucky Windage.

[ExTank]

Former Army Tanker here, and at Knox in 1986 we had to qualify with the .45, but we only had to familiarize with the M-16, even though it was on the same course the Cav Scouts qualified on.

For the .45, IIRC it was 36 out of 40 shots "on target" to qualify Expert; I only got high 20s out of 40 and was qualified as a Sharpshooter. I later qualified Expert for the rest of my service at various units.

The M-16 familiarization fired at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards in various standing, kneeling, and prone positions. I also rated Sharpshooter (those 400 yard targets were kinda fuzzy in my sights), but since it was only a familiarization, it didn't count for anything, and it was the last time I fired an M-16 in the Army.

[HMS Irruncible]

Since nobody mentioned it, "shooting expert in basic" in the Army actually refers to shooting >35/40 hits in BRM (basic rifle marksmanship) qualification. This involves shooting from fairly easy positions (prone and foxhole) at fairly sensitive mechanical popup targets. It's not sniper training, it's not ARM (advanced rifle marksmanship).

I personally shot 37 with no more prior experience than backyard plinking with a BB gun. I just have decent fine motor skill, and I paid attention to the training. A little girl could probably do it.

[Bear_Nenno]

Since nobody mentioned it, "shooting expert in basic" in the Army actually refers to shooting >35/40 hits in BRM (basic rifle marksmanship) qualification.This has been mentioned several times in this thread.

This involves shooting from fairly easy positions (prone and foxhole) at fairly sensitive mechanical popup targets.This hasn't been mentioned because it isn't true. Not anymore.

It's not sniper training, it's not ARM (advanced rifle marksmanship).Been mentioned.

[Martin Hyde]

When I joined the Canadian Forces I was scoring at the highest levels right off the bat, and I'd never touched a firearm before. The only time I've ever fired live ammo was on our range days and other times we had a chance to blow off some ammo. Maybe 20 in all, tops.

I think a lot of its has to do with your heart rate or your central nervous system, as my father was also an excellent shot.

But that said, almost anyone with some practice could get at least a very good score on standard range distances of 100 to 200 metres. Military rifles are accurate and easy to use, so in perfect conditions at ranges where wind doesn't have much impact, it's really not very difficult.

Yes, guns are designed so anyone can get reasonably good at them. Obviously Olympic shooting style competition marksmanship is a different game, and actually not terribly important for a front line infantryman (movement is a huge part of warfare and can be absent from most typical Olympic style shooting competitions.)

The biggest reason European armies started rolling with muskets wasn't that they were more accurate (it was some time before a person using a firearm could be more accurate than a trained archer firing a long bow), or that they were especially more deadly (musket balls were capable of delivering greater force at a target, but long bows of the day were essentially more than deadly enough even against armor), or that they had a better rate of fire (it wasn't until probably the 18th or 19th century when you had gun wielding soldiers with a higher rate of fire than traditional archers), it was that you could train a musket wielding soldier in a few months whereas a skilled archer started training as a boy and wasn't fully accomplished until adulthood.

[Martin Hyde]

Yes, guns are designed so anyone can get reasonably good at them. Obviously Olympic shooting style competition marksmanship is a different game, and actually not terribly important for a front line infantryman (movement is a huge part of warfare and can be absent from most typical Olympic style shooting competitions.)

The biggest reason European armies started rolling with muskets wasn't that they were more accurate (it was some time before a person using a firearm could be more accurate than a trained archer firing a long bow), or that they were especially more deadly (musket balls were capable of delivering greater force at a target, but long bows of the day were essentially more than deadly enough even against armor), or that they had a better rate of fire (it wasn't until probably the 18th or 19th century when you had gun wielding soldiers with a higher rate of fire than traditional archers), it was that you could train a musket wielding soldier in a few months whereas a skilled archer started training as a boy and wasn't fully accomplished until adulthood.

And of course it was also a lot easier to produce ammunition for a musket than it was to produce arrows. Fletching was time consuming, labor intensive and required a decent amount of skill.

[UncleBill]

You folks are better than Oswald. Best he did was Sharpshooter.

Sometimes being lucky is better than being good. A lot of people still say that shot he made in Dealey Plaza was pure luck.
I went to that museum in Dealey Plaza, and the shot was really quite a short one. The first shot was at 184 feet, or about 61 yards, with a scope. Third shot was from 294 feet, or 98 yards. All three shots from less than half the minimum distance he shot on the range with iron sights. Not quite fish in a barrel, but not a tough shot.

[Justadad849]

While qualifying expert in any weapons training isn't something to be ashamed about, it's certainly no great feat in Army basic training. Qualifying as an expert only means that on a given day, you managed to hit 35 out of 40 targets of various ranges. It's not super easy but doable and many trainees accomplish it. If you shoot less than expert, say Sharpshooter, you do have an option to try again during your military service period.

[JBDivmstr]

I went to that museum in Dealey Plaza, and the shot was really quite a short one. The first shot was at 184 feet, or about 61 yards, with a scope. Third shot was from 294 feet, or 98 yards. All three shots from less than half the minimum distance he shot on the range with iron sights. Not quite fish in a barrel, but not a tough shot.(bolding mine)

IMHO it would qualify as a 'tough' shot, for the simple fact that LHO was shooting at a moving target. ;)

[Gbro]

You're also looking at selection and confirmation biases. The people who shot expert were probably already shooting when they joined, so they came in with a certain amount of expertise and skill that most recruits wouldn't have.
I thought I knew everything there was about shooting because I could out shoot all my friends before joining the Army. With that attitude i almost didn't qualify and got what I call the toilet seat badge. I actually did shoot marksman but only by 1 or 2 points and was so discussed-ed with myself that I would just refer to myself as a marksman. :(
Having never fired a hand gun I easily scored expert.
One thing to remember with these claimed qualifications, the DD-214 papers will list qualifications.

[Throatwarbler Mangrove]

If someone tells me "I shot expert at Basic training" I assume they never fired it since.

This cannot be stressed enough.

Think about all the actual cool shit that people in the military get to do. Then think about what kind of person doesn't have anything more interesting to talk about than basic training.

[Bear_Nenno]

While qualifying expert in any weapons training isn't something to be ashamed about, it's certainly no great feat in Army basic training. Qualifying as an expert only means that on a given day, you managed to hit 35 out of 40 targets of various ranges. It's not super easy but doable and many trainees accomplish it. If you shoot less than expert, say Sharpshooter, you do have an option to try again during your military service period.

The option? What are you talking about? All Soldiers must qualify twice a year throughout their "military service period". That isn't an option. Also, as has been pointed out numerous times, Expert in the Army is 36, not 35.

[JerseyMarine2092]

This cannot be stressed enough.

Think about all the actual cool shit that people in the military get to do. Then think about what kind of person doesn't have anything more interesting to talk about than basic training.

Very, very true. I remember our Senior Drill Instructor telling us that if boot was the toughest thing we'd do in the Corps, then we must not of have much of Marine Corps career.

[UncleBill]

(bolding mine)

IMHO it would qualify as a 'tough' shot, for the simple fact that LHO was shooting at a moving target. ;)Wow, a zombie thread I killed. The target was moving almost directly away from the window, very slight left to right aspect, and down a hill, slight up to down motion, if any, all less than 100 yards, at an estimated speed of 11 mph. I still say not that hard, but I was a killer from that 500 yards prone position slow fire on the USMC KD Course, so my perception may be different from some folks'.

[Leo Bloom]

WTF? Flamethrower??? How do I get in on one of these tests??!?!?
Flamethrowers are legal in most of the US. The state Of California, whose relevant laws are the only ones recycled on the net, adjudicate their use as a misdemeanor.

Is America great or what!;)

[Isamu]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion, but my rehabilitative therapy went over schedule. I can attest to being shot on numerous occasions during basic training.

- PFC Jason Expert

[Princhester]

WTF? Flamethrower??? How do I get in on one of these tests??!?!?

If you are really desperate, I hear they have openings for volunteers to act as targets.