Shocking, Disturbing Restaurant Assault Vid: Woman Allegedly Beaten Into a Seizure As Employees Laug

[Raskolnikov]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/disturbing-restaurant-assault-vid-woman-allegedly-beaten-into-a-seizure-as-employees-laugh/


The details on the following attack are fuzzy.* What you see is two woman mercilessly attacking another in a McDonald’s. But that doesn’t really do the video justice. The two women repeatedly punch and kick the woman in the head while she lies in the fetal position on the ground. They then drag her across the floor by her hair near the door, where they continue the beating. All the while, the employees stand by laughing (although one seems to give a half-hearted vocal attempt to stop the madness, and another eventually tries to step in).

Eventually, it appears the woman is beaten so badly she has a seizure


According to a description from the video site LiveLeak, the person filming the incident coaches the attackers to flee:

The two black females exit, then re-enter the store to continue the beating, until an older white woman attempts to stop them from dragging the white victim outside into the parking lot. note: the black male employees have disappeared from camera view, even though they are plenty well capable of stopping the attack.

At the end, the white victim is beaten until she has a seizure, at which point the camera operator warns the black female attackers to flee, because the police are on the way. Note: he makes sure to repeatedly tell the criminal attackers to flee, instead of keeping them there for the police to apprehend.

[Jack Batty]

I can't get to the video from where I am right now, and I really don't want to give Beck's Blaze any click-through anyway, but I heard about this at lunch, on the radio when I was giving myself my daily blood pressure elevation check by tuning into Limbaugh for 15 minutes.

Any idea what he was going on about with this shit (paraphrased): "You'll need to wear an 'I Love Obama' t-shirt in fast food restaurants now if you don't want to get beaten to death."

[Snowboarder Bo]

Is there a topic for debate here? I'll be the first to make the brave stand that beating the shit out of helpless people is a bad thing to do.

[SmartAlecCat]

I'll be the first to make the brave stand that beating the shit out of helpless people is a bad thing to do.

I agree -- it's wrong to beat up people like this.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

I stand firmly with you against physical assault. I shout my opposition to bystander indifference.

[Inner Stickler]

I didn't see anything in the video to explain why the attack occurred.

[Nars Glinley]

Resolved: Beating someone into a seizure is bad.

Bring it.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

I have a debate topic. Why do conservatives care about other people's physical health only when it is threatened by black people? Especially if there is video.

[Peremensoe]

The OP fails to specify the race of the camera operator and the responding officers, so how can we judge their actions?

[Bryan Ekers]

I stand firmly with you against physical assault. I shout my opposition to bystander indifference.

I would agree, but I don't want to get involved.

[Nars Glinley]

I stand firmly with you against physical assault. I shout my opposition to bystander indifference.

Bad username/post combo.

[Jas09]

I'd like to be contrarian, but I think I'm going to have to concur with the majority here. Beating someone until they have a seizure is an immoral act.

Implying that white people aren't safe in restaurants with black people unless they agree with the current President because of a video in which absolutely no evidence of motive is presented is also immoral.

[mlees]

The article quoted by the blaze, which is credited as a description from LiveLeak, asserts that there were people present who could have stopped the fight, but didn't.

The McD folks may have policies about that (don't want to be sued), dunno.

But I am not willing to condemn anyone based on what (little) I saw in the video. (I think the store manager, a fella in a blue shirt, WAS involved the whole time.)

But I guess a story is just not a news story unless there is some way to sensationalize it.

[Nars Glinley]

But I am not willing to condemn anyone based on what (little) I saw in the video. (I think the store manager, a fella in a blue shirt, WAS involved the whole time.)

Really? You don't think the girls went too far in their beat down or you don't think they should be condemned for it? Even not knowing what provoked them, once someone is lying on the floor in a fetal position, continued violence is assault and battery or worse.

[levdrakon]

But I guess a story is just not a news story unless there is some way to sensationalize it.That video needs sensationalizing? With what, a sound track?

[runner pat]

Really? You don't think the girls went too far in their beat down or you don't think they should be condemned for it? Even not knowing what provoked them, once someone is lying on the floor in a fetal position, continued violence is assault and battery or worse.

Actually, unless it's self-defense, it's ALL assault and battery.

Once someone is down, further battery could result in charges all the way up to attempted murder.

[carnivorousplant]

Anyone Googled (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/mcdonalds/mcdonalds-employee-filmed-brutal-beating-640128) Baltimore beating McDonalds?

[mlees]

Really? You don't think the girls went too far in their beat down or you don't think they should be condemned for it? Even not knowing what provoked them, once someone is lying on the floor in a fetal position, continued violence is assault and battery or worse.

No. To clarify, the article states that folks (not the participants) stood around laughing. Male employees (who are presumedly physically stronger than the females involved in the fight) did not attempt to stop the fight, but "dissappeared" instead.

LiveLeak is quoted as "note: the black male employees have disappeared from camera view, even though they are plenty well capable of stopping the attack." (Why mention the employees are black?)

What I meant was I cannot blame some bystanders for not getting involved, especially as a few were.

I said nothing about the original fight participants.

That video needs sensationalizing? With what, a sound track?

No, I said it WAS sensationalised with the headline that reads "woman beaten into seizure as employees laugh". That's not the impression I got watching the video.

The fella in the blue shirt I assumed to be the McD store manager, and he tried to intervene repeatedly. He just didn't intervene with flying tackles, which is I guess what LiveLeak wants to see from the bystanders.

[levdrakon]

I would like to see a transcript of what was being said, by whom. I got maybe three words out of that video.

[Nadir]

So what are we debating here? Two fat black chicks have less cause to beat up a skinny white cross dresser, than one of their own color?

McDonalds dives in places like that are/are not good places to go for dinner and a show?

What? Sorry, just not gettin' it.... :confused:

[alphaboi867]

...The McD folks may have policies about that (don't want to be sued), dunno...

I don't see why anyone would expect them to do anything more than call 911 and lock the doors the moment the two attackers left the store. It's not their job to protect customers from being assualted by other customers. If company policy is anything like at the convenience store I used to work at they'd have been fired had they tried tp physically intervene. At the very least they'd have to pay for any medical treatment they required (like stitches) out of their own pocket.

[mlees]

I don't see why anyone would expect them to do anything more than call 911 and lock the doors the moment the two attackers left the store. It's not their job to protect customers from being assualted by other customers. If company policy is anything like at the convenience store I used to work at they'd have been fired had they tried tp physically intervene. At the very least they'd have to pay for any medical treatment they required (like stitches) out of their own pocket.

I agree. The quotes on The Blaze (attributed to LiveLeak) do not.

I went directly to LiveLeak, and the description now on this video now no longer match what The Blaze has quoted.

[Shodan]

If I am understanding the circumstances, they were beating up a transvestite for being in the ladies room. Is that it?

Regards,
Shodan

[FinnAgain]

I'm not sure if the OP mentioned it, but what skin color did the attackers have and what skin color did the victim have?

[code_grey]

this calls for more funding for programs to address violence in our communities.

We also need more education because education is our future.

More should be done to battle prejudice, racism and intolerance.

[Nadir]

We also need more education because education is our future.
The victim would no doubt have benefited greatly from a little martial arts training. :rolleyes:

[levdrakon]

If I am understanding the circumstances, they were beating up a transvestite for being in the ladies room. Is that it?

Regards,
ShodanThe police are referring to the victim as a 22-year-old woman. The twat who filmed the whole thing says it was a guy dressed like a woman. He also says she was faking the seizure.

Who to believe?

McDonald's videos everything doesn't it? I wonder if they'll release their videos of the incident?

[Slithy Tove]

This video is all the proof you need that the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the Fair Housing Act of 1968, the 13th and 14th Amendments, etc., etc. were just a bunch of bad ideas that gave Black people license to act this way. You liberals need to stop denying that there's a race war going on, and untie the hands of us real Americans so we can fight it, or at least let us say nigger again because they get to say it and it feels so good to say nigger and it's just not fair!

Is that the subtext here?

[Damuri Ajashi]

I can't get to the video from where I am right now, and I really don't want to give Beck's Blaze any click-through anyway, but I heard about this at lunch, on the radio when I was giving myself my daily blood pressure elevation check by tuning into Limbaugh for 15 minutes.

Any idea what he was going on about with this shit (paraphrased): "You'll need to wear an 'I Love Obama' t-shirt in fast food restaurants now if you don't want to get beaten to death."

This sort of reporting is racism. OOHHH Look at the black girls beating up a defenseless white girl and the black McDonald's employees didn't stop them, the animals.

Ooooh the black Mcdonald's employees told the girls to leave instead of detaining them for the police.

The girls deserve to be charged with assault but the whole "look at the crazy black people" schtick is racist.

It sounds like the white "girl" was actually a transvestite that was in the girl's bathroom who got into a verbal altercation with other girls that were in the bathroom and they beat the crap out of him (they should have just called the police) and the seizure was an act to stop the girls from beating on him (I woulda done the same thing if it would convince the girls to leave).

[Nadir]

Resolved: Beating someone into a seizure is bad.

Bring it.
IMO, some people should be beaten to death. Just the ones I extremely dislike.

Disclaimer: There may be others I'm unaware of.

[levdrakon]

It sounds like the white "girl" was actually a transvestite that was in the girl's bathroom who got into a verbal altercation with other girls that were in the bathroom and they beat the crap out of him (they should have just called the police) and the seizure was an act to stop the girls from beating on him (I woulda done the same thing if it would convince the girls to leave).
Nice to see you jump off the racist high dive and into the homophobia and bigotry pool.

Basically, if a trans woman gets beaten into a seizure she (or *he* as you call her) probably deserved it.

Why am I not surprised?

[rogerbox]

The seizure does not look like seizures I have seen before, unless she had some pre-existing condition I don't think that was a severe enough beating to cause a seizure, I'm thinking it was an act to stop the beating.

[rogerbox]

Nice to see you jump off the racist high dive and into the homophobia and bigotry pool.

Basically, if a trans woman gets beaten into a seizure she (or *he* as you call her) probably deserved it.

Why am I not surprised?

I can't figure out how you derived this conclusion from what he posted.

[wmfellows]

Nice to see you jump off the racist high dive and into the homophobia and bigotry pool.

Basically, if a trans woman gets beaten into a seizure she (or *he* as you call her) probably deserved it.

Why am I not surprised?

???

What the fuck are you on about? DA said nothing about the guy deserving anything, only that DA would have faked (if that is the case) a siezure to escape the girls.

I'm vaguely amused at the idea of this being a guy beaten up by two fat girls.

[Snowboarder Bo]

I can't figure out how you derived this conclusion from what he posted.

let me 2nd that

[marshmallow]

I like all the tough guy keyboard commentators. Here's what happens if you help a stranger in a fight:

1. they beat you up instead
2. her friends laughing and egging them on and taping it beat you into a coma
3. you get stabbed
4. you get shot

[Snowboarder Bo]

I like all the tough guy keyboard commentators. Here's what happens if you help a stranger in a fight:

1. they beat you up instead
2. her friends laughing and egging them on and taping it beat you into a coma
3. you get stabbed
4. you get shot

I've broken up quite a few fights in my lifetime, and never had any of those things happen to me.

[ajb867]

The person in the video is faking a seizure.

If you would like to see what real seizures look like click below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDccChHrgRA

Also its floating around that she is actually a He who was in the woman's bathroom.

[Lobohan]

I've broken up quite a few fights in my lifetime, and never had any of those things happen to me.Unless you're dreaming this thread in a coma right now.

[Peremensoe]

I don't see why anyone would expect them to do anything more than call 911 and lock the doors the moment the two attackers left the store. It's not their job to protect customers from being assualted by other customers.

Well, my own expectations for their behavior have nothing to do with their employment status.

[Sicks Ate]

The seizure does not look like seizures I have seen before, unless she had some pre-existing condition I don't think that was a severe enough beating to cause a seizure, I'm thinking it was an act to stop the beating.

It DOES look like a seizure I have seen before. There are many different types of seizures....they do not all look the same.

As soon as I saw it, I had the same physical/psychological reaction, i.e. ready to intervene/care, that I have had many times.

[Marley23]

I'm not seeing a debate here. Moved to the Pit from GD.

[Lobohan]

I'm not seeing a debate here. Moved to the Pit from GD.There is too a debate here!

[Inner Stickler]

No, there's not.

*rips lobohan's weave out*

[Lobohan]

No, there's not.

*rips lobohan's weave out*That was a gift!

[Inner Stickler]

now i feel bad

[Cubsfan]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/mcdonalds/mcdonalds-employee-filmed-brutal-beating-640128

I love the picture of the dude that filmed it all. Is that Chris Tucker?

[koufax]

I've broken up quite a few fights in my lifetime, and never had any of those things happen to me.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/04/21/dad-who-split-up-fight-in-mcdonald-s-shot-dead-115875-23075797/

[China Guy]

Internets are your friend. If you don't like google you can also bing it. http://www.wbaltv.com/r/27640819/detail.html

From the link:
On the video, you can hear at least one employee yelling for the attack to stop.

Police charging documents show that another person tried to intervene and break up the assault, but the black women punched her in the face, causing her to fall over. Police said that woman declined medical assistance.

The man who shot the video appeared to have done nothing to help. On the video, he's heard telling the attackers that the victim is seizing and that police are on the way.
According to TheSmokingGun.com, the McDonald's employee who filmed the attack said the victim was a man.

Equality Maryland identified the victim as a transgendered woman. The group has urged officials to investigate the attack as a hate crime.

[bdgr]

Although the guy filming it claimed the victim was a transvestite, the police said it wasn't.

[China Guy]

bdgr - you mean the original police incident report or something more updated?

[Snowboarder Bo]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/04/21/dad-who-split-up-fight-in-mcdonald-s-shot-dead-115875-23075797/

Yeah, well, that's not me. And the fact that it happened to that guy doesn't make me think it's statistically likely to happen to me. If I see a fight break out, I'll still break it up. If I get hurt in the process but I can stop a one-sided ass-whooping from taking place, so be it.

[drachillix]

The McD folks may have policies about that (don't want to be sued), dunno.

I'm quite sure that McD's has such policies in place. Stopping an attack like that requires force or the clear authority to detain/arrest (like police presence). Bet your ass if those guys had forecefully detained those girls they would have a dozen lawyers fighting over who gets to sue McD's for assault and false arrest/imprisonment.

One of the fun things about working security where I did, we expected to intervene and detain all involved parties in incidents like this. The fun ones were very uncooperative. :D

[bdgr]

bdgr - you mean the original police incident report or something more updated?

From the police press release on the incident.

[RedFury]

If I am understanding the circumstances, they were beating up a transvestite for being in the ladies room. Is that it?

Regards,
Shodan

Has the Baltimore Police corroborated Vernon Hackett's account of the incident (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/mcdonalds/mcdonalds-employee-filmed-brutal-beating-640128)? Because thus far it's only Fox "News" that's echoing his claims with this misleading headline:

'Woman' Beat Up At McDonald’s Was A Male Cross-Dresser (http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/04/22/smoking-gun-woman-beat-mcdonald-s-was-male-cross-dresser)

---

Video's brutal. Bunch of fuckin' animals.

[Tom Tildrum]

Has the Baltimore Police corroborated Vernon Hackett's account of the incident (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/mcdonalds/mcdonalds-employee-filmed-brutal-beating-640128)? Because thus far it's only Fox "News" that's echoing his claims with this misleading headline:

'Woman' Beat Up At McDonald’s Was A Male Cross-Dresser (http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/04/22/smoking-gun-woman-beat-mcdonald-s-was-male-cross-dresser).

The Baltimore Sun is reporting (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-viral-video-mcdonalds-20110422,0,4613709.story) that the prosecutor's office has stated that they are investigating whether it was a racially-motivated hate crime, but were unaware of the transgender bias possibility. The article, however, cites a group called "Equality Maryland" as having confirmed that the victim was transgendered.

Equality Maryland said the victim is a transgender woman and called on state Attorney General Douglas F. Gansler to step in and investigate the case as a hate crime. Police and prosecutors said they did not know whether the victim is a transgender woman.

"It does appear that the victim was a transgender woman, and she was brutalized while people stood by and watched," said Lisa Polyak, vice president of the board of directors for Equality Maryland, an advocacy organization that fought unsuccessfully in the past legislative session for greater protections for transgender individuals. "There's no excuse for that violence under any circumstances, but we would encourage police to investigate as a hate crime."

...

State's Attorney Scott D. Shellenberger, who said he was unaware of the gender-related issues, said the racial dynamics of the incident could result in hate-crime charges.

"We just received this case, and the Police Department is continuing their investigation," Shellenberger said. "If there is evidence that the crime was racially motivated, we will take a look at those charges and see if we meet those elements. We have the ability, if the facts are there, to upgrade the charges at a later date."

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

The person in the video is faking a seizure.

If you would like to see what real seizures look like click below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDccChHrgRA

Also its floating around that she is actually a He who was in the woman's bathroom.

You're an idiot. Do you really think a four minute youtube video can show you what all seizures look like? Seriously, you're an idiot.

Has the Baltimore Police corroborated Vernon Hackett's account of the incident (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/mcdonalds/mcdonalds-employee-filmed-brutal-beating-640128)?

Catty: Holy shit, ol Vernon looks quite feeble minded in that picture. I hope that's not one he's using for wooing women. He looks like someone who would yell "I LIKE TATER TOTS!" at you from his porch as you walk on by.

Also, I agree with RedFury on the "fucking animals" idea.

[ajb867]

You're an idiot. Do you really think a four minute youtube video can show you what all seizures look like? Seriously, you're an idiot.


The only idiot here is the one with no real medical knowledge trying to troll. Let's take away even the video aspect of this to maybe something you can grasp more easily. Do you really think someone suffering a traumatic head injury severe enough to cause a seizure is going to then be able to refuse medical attention when the police arrive minutes later? Go ahead, use google I'll wait patiently.

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

The only idiot here is the one with no real medical knowledge trying to troll. Let's take away even the video aspect of this to maybe something you can grasp more easily. Do you really think someone suffering a traumatic head injury severe enough to cause a seizure is going to then be able to refuse medical attention when the police arrive minutes later? Go ahead, use google I'll wait patiently.

I'm a nurse who has worked in emergency rooms and trauma centers since I got my license. I've seen plenty of seizures and I'll still say you are an idiot. I-d-i-o-t if you think you can armchair quarterback whether or not that person had a seizure from your keyboard.

I've been with an ambulance crew where a car accident victim seized twice and refused transport.

Fucking idiot.

[bdgr]

The only idiot here is the one with no real medical knowledge trying to troll. Let's take away even the video aspect of this to maybe something you can grasp more easily. Do you really think someone suffering a traumatic head injury severe enough to cause a seizure is going to then be able to refuse medical attention when the police arrive minutes later? Go ahead, use google I'll wait patiently.

The victim didn't refuse medical attention. It was one of the bystanders who tried to help and was nocked down who refused. The victim was transported to the hospital.

[ajb867]

You are going to have to do better then that. I feel like you need a let me google that for you link.

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

You are going to have to do better then that. I feel like you need a let me google that for you link.

Okay Dr YouTube, you keep on thinking that.

[bdgr]

You are going to have to do better then that. I feel like you need a let me google that for you link.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/mcdonalds/mcdonalds-employee-filmed-brutal-beating-640128

"The victim suffered cuts to the mouth and face during the attack and was transported by medics to Franklin Square Hospital for treatment, according to a police report "

[ajb867]

Yes bdgr I misread that. However the the man or woman in the video did not have a grand mal seizure. Flailing around on the floor to stop the attack is exactly what they were doing.

Hey sleeps your car accident victim, think they had a seizure first causing the accident? Did they have one right there in front of you? Was it just like this video? Relevance? Implied consent?

[bdgr]

Yes bdgr I misread that. However the the man or woman in the video did not have a grand mal seizure. Flailing around on the floor to stop the attack is exactly what they were doing.

Hey sleeps your car accident victim, think they had a seizure first causing the accident? Did they have one right there in front of you? Was it just like this video? Relevance? Implied consent?

I've seen siezures before. It could be real, it could be fake. You don't know.

[Sitnam]

The hitting was of course out of line, but do women have the right to be upset a man dressed as a woman was going to use the womans bathroom? I dunno.

[Snowboarder Bo]

The hitting was of course out of line, but do women have the right to be upset a man dressed as a woman was going to use the womans bathroom? I dunno.

A quick google says that yes, they do have a right to be upset in Maryland. On Saturday, the Maryland House of Delegates voted to advance a bill that would ban discrimination against trans people in employment and housing—but would stop short of eliminating discrimination in public accommodations. (http://www.tbd.com/blogs/amanda-hess/2011/03/maryland-legislators-still-obsessed-with-toilets-9823.html)

Mind you, I don't think they have the right to just open up a can of whoop-ass, but yes, they can be upset.

From what I remember, in most (if not all) states, it's illegal to use a restroom specifically denoted for the other sex, as well, so if this was a transgendered man in a women's bathroom, even if all he was trying to do was take a leak, he could be charged with a crime.

I think that's prolly a lesser offense than the 2 women will be charged with, tho.

[Slithy Tove]

And the reason transgendered use womens rooms is to avoid getting assaulted. So what's plan B? Accessorized catheter bags?

[The Tooth]

I can't get to the video from where I am right now, and I really don't want to give Beck's Blaze any click-through anyway, but I heard about this at lunch, on the radio when I was giving myself my daily blood pressure elevation check by tuning into Limbaugh for 15 minutes.

Any idea what he was going on about with this shit (paraphrased): "You'll need to wear an 'I Love Obama' t-shirt in fast food restaurants now if you don't want to get beaten to death."

He's a Republican propaganda merchant; it's his job to show how everything bad is the fault of the Democrats. Didn't you know?

[Zebra]

According to the victim


Polis told police that she was walking to the restaurant’s bathroom when she “got into a verbal argument with two black females” who “began punching her in the face with their fists and pulling her hair.”


The transgendered person never made it inside the bathroom.

[Sailboat]

Yes bdgr I misread that.

Okay, so, you were wrong -- and aggressive about it.

However the the man or woman in the video did not have a grand mal seizure.

Grand mal? Now you're moving the goalposts.

Did they have one right there in front of you? Was it just like this video? Relevance? Implied consent?

Pretty aggressive comeback from someone who's admitted being wrong, misunderstood what the thread said, and is openly moving the goalposts.

[Sampiro]

The transgendered person never made it inside the bathroom.

That would be a great opening line. Or a good sentence for an English grammar textbook.

I'm hoping Charm gets in serious major trouble as well for crimes against language if nothing else ("Tha" is not a word you moron!). And that McDonalds learns they can't keep toying with people by offering the McRib and then not offering it.

[Superdude]

And that McDonalds learns they can't keep toying with people by offering the McRib and then not offering it.

I'm lovin' it!

I'm a nurse who has worked in emergency rooms and trauma centers since I got my license. I've seen plenty of seizures and I'll still say you are an idiot. I-d-i-o-t if you think you can armchair quarterback whether or not that person had a seizure from your keyboard.

I've been with an ambulance crew where a car accident victim seized twice and refused transport.

Fucking idiot.


EMT chiming in to add that I've seen situations very similar to what you're describing.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Transvestite and transgendered are two different things.

Obviously the whole story is just a transparent attempt at race hustling, though, and dishonestly presented at that. I'm sure this will saturate Fox News for the next month or so. They love to scare whitey with pictures like this. Remember that black guy with the stick that stole the election for Obama.

For the record, the assault looked like a criminal act and these women should be prosecuted. It wasn't the job of the employees to put themselves at physical risk, though.

[levdrakon]

Does anyone honestly believe if two white women were beating a lone black woman into a seizure in a business filled with black employees not a single one of them would have intervened other than to film it on their cell phone?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Why would they behave any differently?

I suspect that if two white women were videotaped beating up a black transgendered woman, the righty attitudes would be completely reversed. The victim would be getting depicted as a vicious sexual predator.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Does anyone honestly believe if two white women were beating a lone black woman into a seizure in a business filled with black employees not a single one of them would have intervened other than to film it on their cell phone?

Let's see... wait, am I black too?

[levdrakon]

Why would they behave any differently?

I suspect that if two white women were videotaped beating up a black transgendered woman, the righty attitudes would be completely reversed. The victim would be getting depicted as a vicious sexual predator.Considering how quickly people are jumping on the "it was a dude dressed like a chick trying to get in the chicks' bathroom" I'd say we're already seeing that in action.

[Pyper]

I don't get how everybody is saying "no one intervened." Watching the video, I see a black man in a blue shirt (the manager?) pull both the attackers off the victim. He then tries to head them off again a minute later when they come back toward the victim. The attackers continue beating on the victim and then an older white woman tells them to leave her alone and physically tries to push them away and block them with her body. It also appears that a black employee in a red shirt picks up one of the attackers and moves her away from the victim. All the while, someone is yelling, "Stop!" in the background.

[Sampiro]

I hope the older woman gets some recognition, because she was truly heroic considering her age and the fact she human-shielded the victim. Was the guy in the blue shirt an employee? He wasn't wearing the red-shirt uniform but it did look like a work uniform of some sort. In any case, McDonalds should reward him.

[levdrakon]

Pony tail guy? Yeah, he sorta intervened, that big manly stud.

[Lynn Bodoni]

And the reason transgendered use womens rooms is to avoid getting assaulted. So what's plan B? Accessorized catheter bags? From what I understand, before a transgendered person starts on the surgeries, s/he has to spend at least a year living as the desired gender. That is, a M2F person has to dress as a woman, and act like a woman...which includes using the women's room.

[Snowboarder Bo]

From what I understand, before a transgendered person starts on the surgeries, s/he has to spend at least a year living as the desired gender. That is, a M2F person has to dress as a woman, and act like a woman...which includes using the women's room.

Except for that last (bolded) part, that's my understanding too. AFAIK, it's illegal in Maryland (and in most states) for a man to use the women's restroom, and vice versa.

[Giraffe]

Does anyone honestly believe if two white women were beating a lone black woman into a seizure in a business filled with black employees not a single one of them would have intervened other than to film it on their cell phone?I know, right? Black people are the worst.

[Sampiro]

I know, right? Black people are the worst.


It's weird that when they're kicking a transvestite into a seizure they're quieter than they are in a movie theater.

[StaudtCJ]

From what I've been reading on other websites, the lady who was beaten up appears to be a post-op, midtransition transsexual M2F. She has surgically created girlybits, has lived as a woman for a very long time, and is in the process of continuing varying feminization procedures such as jaw reshaping and other corrections. It's a very sad situation.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Damn, you read some really specific websites.

[levdrakon]

I know, right? Black people are the worst.I know! They're shitty tippers too.

[Snarky_Kong]

Why would they behave any differently?

I suspect that if two white women were videotaped beating up a black transgendered woman, the righty attitudes would be completely reversed. The victim would be getting depicted as a vicious sexual predator.

"That's racist!"

"Racist statement!"

[Nars Glinley]

Why would they behave any differently?

I suspect that if two white women were videotaped beating up a black transgendered woman, the righty attitudes would be completely reversed. The victim would be getting depicted as a vicious sexual predator.

I suspect that you are an idiot.

[Der Trihs]

I suspect that you are an idiot.I think it's a fair assessment; racial bigotry runs deep on the Right.

[Nadir]

How much beating is too much?
Could we please focus on the real problem for a moment - violence? We all know the racist/hate/sexual orientation part is spicy and controversial here, but isn't that merely an associated factor to the the actual crime of assault?

In that vein, I contend that beating a person to the point of causing a seizure (if it was not in fact, being faked) may under certain circumstances, meet the terms of the colloquial reference to beating someone "within an inch of their life," and could reasonably be considered to constitute a good beating.

[Sampiro]

In that vein, I contend that beating a person to the point of causing a seizure (if it was not in fact, being faked) may under certain circumstances, meet the terms of the colloquial reference to beating someone "within an inch of their life," and could reasonably be considered to constitute a good beating.

If the seizure was not only 100% faked but the victim started the fight by calling them names and then throwing the first punch (which there's of course no evidence she did either of course) these bitches still need to be behind bars for a long time. If they didn't do any permanent harm it wasn't for lack of trying and they belong in a cage. Any justification ended the first time they came back, and the guy shooting the video needs his life derailed as well. He might can justify taping it- evidence and all that- but YouTubing it and then defending it with "Tha was no woman!" hopefully earns him a little time and a lot of probation.

[Slithy Tove]

Or community service in the form of a charity cage match against Epic Beard Man.

[joebuck20]

The man who shot the video appeared to have done nothing to help. On the video, he's heard telling the attackers that the victim is seizing and that police are on the way.


This sounds an awful lot like the last episode of Seinfeld.

[tnetennba]

???
I'm vaguely amused at the idea of this being a guy beaten up by two fat girls.

Then you are vaguely an asshole.

[tnetennba]

Presumably Limbaugh and Drudge and any other righties who were appalled at black-on-white violence will now be very quiet and forget it ever happened since it's just good old fashioned, red blooded, all American queer bashing.

[carnivorousplant]

They're not fat.

[levdrakon]

They're not fat.That one was. And did you see what sister was wearing? Ain't right.

Come to think of it, my theory is all three were drag queen hookers and drug dealers and the reason no one intervened was because these three get into it every night.

[Nadir]

I'm guessing the verbal altercation started over something like an un-paid crack bill.

[Gabing Gaboing]

If the victim faked a seizure, then good on 'em because they didn't let up until she did.

Pathetic how an older, out of shape lady was the only one to actively pursue helping the victim out. It looks like they punched her in the head for her trouble in the process.

Why is the jerk who filmed it playing the "it's a BOY!" card? Do they honestly think the fact negates what the girls did and what the others didn't do? And the fact that he posted his video on his Youtube channel instead of being ashamed of himself for letting an old lady be braver than he is just speaks volumes.

I can't get over the fact that they just kept going back. They left her and came back what, three times? Talk about pedators.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

For everyone contemplating whether that was a real seizure, it was not. Sometimes you can tell that a person is faking a seizure; yes, even through a crappy video image. It is likely that he/she faked a seizure to get them to stop beating him/her.


mmm

[Miller]

For everyone contemplating whether that was a real seizure, it was not. Sometimes you can tell that a person is faking a seizure; yes, even through a crappy video image. It is likely that he/she faked a seizure to get them to stop beating him/her.


mmm

We've had two people with legitimate medical backgrounds say that the seizure in the video could have been real. What's your medical training that leads you to conclude that it was not?

[rogerbox]

We've had two people with legitimate medical backgrounds say that the seizure in the video could have been real. What's your medical training that leads you to conclude that it was not?

I don't have a medical background, but I though the seizure was fake looking because it doesn't look like the seizures I've seen, and also the beating didn't look that bad to me unless she had some pre-existing medical condition. The girls never got a clean stomp on her... but I wouldn't be surprised if it was real, if I had to guess I would guess it was so that they'd leave her alone.

[Inner Stickler]

Who the hell cares if the seizure was real or not? They were beating her up! You bet your ass I'd fake a seizure too, if I thought that would stop an attack. Take your judgmental attitudes and shove em.

[sugaree]

I don't get how everybody is saying "no one intervened." Watching the video, I see a black man in a blue shirt (the manager?) pull both the attackers off the victim. He then tries to head them off again a minute later when they come back toward the victim. The attackers continue beating on the victim and then an older white woman tells them to leave her alone and physically tries to push them away and block them with her body. It also appears that a black employee in a red shirt picks up one of the attackers and moves her away from the victim. All the while, someone is yelling, "Stop!" in the background.

I know! Are they invisible? Am I hallucinating black people? There's also a small black woman dressed all in black (another employee?) intervening. She might be the one yelling stop. I know that both of them disappear off-camera for some time, but how do we know they didn't step back to call 911 or flag down the police?

But this is weird--I first read the description of this video on Free Republic (I know; I know), and there has not been one mention of anyone besides the white lady. What the hell?

[magellan01]

I don't see how it matters one iota whether the seizure was real or not. Really. Who cares?

The issues here are the actions of the two girls and the lack of help people gave the victim. Whether transexual hate, black on white hate, or some other hate, there is nothing that justifies neither the viciousness of the initial attack or the fact that it was repeated two more times. The girls truly acted like animals. I'd say jackals or wild dogs, but jackals or wild dogs would be looking to eat their victim. Disgusting. Those two need to be locked up for a long time where they can practice their brand of violence on those who will fight back and kick the living shit out of them.

As far as the men in the video, equally disgusting. The only one who did the right thing was that older woman who put herself between the victim and the attackers. I hope the men in the video are called on the mat for their actions and grilled until they cry for being such cowards.

[Belowjob2.0]

I don't see how it matters one iota whether the seizure was real or not. Really. Who cares?

The issues here are the actions of the two girls and the lack of help people gave the victim. Whether transexual hate, black on white hate, or some other hate, there is nothing that justifies neither the viciousness of the initial attack or the fact that it was repeated two more times. The girls truly acted like animals. I'd say jackals or wild dogs, but jackals or wild dogs would be looking to eat their victim. Disgusting. Those two need to be locked up for a long time where they can practice their brand of violence on those who will fight back and kick the living shit out of them.

As far as the men in the video, equally disgusting. The only one who did the right thing was that older woman who put herself between the victim and the attackers. I hope the men in the video are called on the mat for their actions and grilled until they cry for being such cowards.


Really? You would have put yourself in front of these chicks?

What if the she-cows started beating the hell out of you? Does your superior male strength hold out against a 2 on 1 from angry gangster bitches? What happens if the only way for you to survive is punch one of these heifers in the face? No joke, you could go to jail for beating on a woman. Generally speaking, the law sees it as the man's fault in these kinds of altercations, even if the woman started it.

I've had some experience with these kinds of confrontations. We were a military family who moved around alot, and our parents were college educated. So we "talked like honkies" as the gangster bitches would put it, and they were always looking to kick my little sister's ass. I would have to fight these bitches to keep them away from my sister on a regular basis. What's weird is that even at the age of 12, I was the size of small grown man, but these chicks would try to fight me. They would keep coming back til I finally hit them hard enough to hurt them.

So, I can't really blame the men in the Mickey D's for bystanding. The smart thing to do would be to leave if you could.

[Argent Towers]

Once in high school after a football game I watched a friend of mine literally get chased around the parking lot by 4 or 5 very big, angry black girls (fans of the other team) who he had insulted somehow. And this guy was a football player (and wrestler). What was he supposed to do? Hit them? Take a beating? He had to run to his truck, lock the door and drive off (they kept running after him.) I can't remember what he did - he probably said something nasty/racist - but the scene was surreal. Also, all the fights I witnessed between girls at my high school cafeteria were between black girls.

In my experience black girls (a certain kind of them - "ghetto") are more likely to physically throw down. What can I say?

[rogerbox]

Who the hell cares if the seizure was real or not? They were beating her up! You bet your ass I'd fake a seizure too, if I thought that would stop an attack. Take your judgmental attitudes and shove em.

How was I judgemental? :confused: Lotta strawmanning going on in this thread.

[Belowjob2.0]

People have died from seemingly trivial blows to the head. I have no doubt that the beating that person took could cause a seizure.

As Sampiro noted upthread, it doesn't matter if it was faked or not. The point is, a beating like that can cause permanent brain damage, or kill a person.

[Triskadecamus]

The sociological and legal aspects of whether the seizure was or was not faked is a pointless issue to investigate.

But, the fight against ignorance significance of calling out casual Internet idiots claiming authority to diagnose epilepsy from a cell phone filmed YouTube clips cannot be dismissed with claims of "I have seen seizures in real life, and that one was fake".

I, too have seen seizures in real life. I have probably seen somewhere between three thousand and ten thousand seizures, up close, and personal, with hands on, and at times with the diagnostic assistance of practicing Neurologists, other physicians, EMTs, and nurses. Guess what? Even in the best of cases, it's hard to be sure just when a seizure starts, or ends, or even if it is a seizure for sure.

I got hit in the head once. I was told in the emergency room that I might have experienced a seizure after it happened. Probably not, but the point is, no one was sure, and that was in a hospital emergency room with an EEG running.

Anyone who thinks they know more from a cell phone video clip has an agenda. Probably just a desire for self aggrandizement. If you think folks on this board are gonna defer to your self assessment of your authority to make absurd pronouncements you are even more delusional than is already apparent from your blathering.

Since we are in the pit, Fuck off, you self important ass wipe.

Tris

[ZPG Zealot]

In my experience black girls (a certain kind of them - "ghetto") are more likely to physically throw down. What can I say?

In my experience, women regardless of race, ethnicity or social class, can be more viscious fighters than men. In many cultures when boys are growing up they are taught rules of fair fighting (i.e., no hitting below the belt, no eye gouging, biting, etc.), girls less so. So when women fight things can escalate to extreme brutality faster.

[rogerbox]

Anyone who thinks they know more from a cell phone video clip has an agenda.
I didn't say I KNEW anything, just how it looked to me. And no, I don't have an agenda.

Probably just a desire for self aggrandizement. If you think folks on this board are gonna defer to your self assessment of your authority to make absurd pronouncements you are even more delusional than is already apparent from your blathering.

I never claimed to have ANY authority. Why is it so offensive to you that it looks fake to me when I said I would be willing to be proven wrong? I never decreed anything.

You sound more like someone with an agenda than I do.

[Sampiro]

I, too have seen seizures in real life. I have probably seen somewhere between three thousand and ten thousand seizures, up close, and personal, with hands on

Mary Hart (http://www.tvacres.com/diseases_ailments_mary.htm), is that you?

[Inner Stickler]

I didn't say I KNEW anything, just how it looked to me. And no, I don't have an agenda.



I never claimed to have ANY authority. Why is it so offensive to you that it looks fake to me when I said I would be willing to be proven wrong? I never decreed anything.

You sound more like someone with an agenda than I do.Then why are you bothering to post. If you're just going to blather about what you think a real seizure looks like, do us all a favor and smash your modem.

[rogerbox]

Then why are you bothering to post. If you're just going to blather about what you think a real seizure looks like, do us all a favor and smash your modem.

That's rude.

[Guinastasia]

That's rude.

If you think THAT was rude, you might not want to hang around in the Pit. Seriously.



Now, I've HAD seizures (I'm an epileptic), I can't say if that's what I look like when I have one or not. (I never remember the big ones, I only know I've had one after I wake up all confused with a massive headache and my mouth all bitten up)

But I'll ask my mother if that's what I look like when I have one, if anyone wants.

[MeanOldLady]

I hope the older woman gets some recognition, because she was truly heroic considering her age and the fact she human-shielded the victim.Word. Gold star for her.

Except for that last (bolded) part, that's my understanding too. AFAIK, it's illegal in Maryland (and in most states) for a man to use the women's restroom, and vice versa.How would anyone know? Was her dick out? In other cases, I would assume it'd be obvious, but I wonder how the whole TG thing came up in the first place here. Wouldn't she have just gone into a stall, closed the door, then pissed like anyone else?

In my experience, women regardless of race, ethnicity or social class, can be more viscious fighters than men. In many cultures when boys are growing up they are taught rules of fair fighting (i.e., no hitting below the belt, no eye gouging, biting, etc.), girls less so. So when women fight things can escalate to extreme brutality faster.Bitches be crazy.

[Nicest of the Damned]

Was the guy in the blue shirt an employee? He wasn't wearing the red-shirt uniform but it did look like a work uniform of some sort. In any case, McDonalds should reward him.

I can't blame the red shirts for not getting involved. Those guys always end up dead.

[flickster]

Report from the Baltimore Sun (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-mcdonalds-beating-20110423,0,3336656.story)
Transgender Woman - check
McD's employee that recorded the vid - fired
Investigation continues

[Chimera]

The sad fact is that because they are women, they will not get anything even close to the same sentence they would if they were men. Hell, the guy holding the camera will probably get a longer sentence.

[Superdude]

Really? You would have put yourself in front of these chicks?

I would. I HAVE stepped between fighting people. I've had to render aid to a police officer laying in the middle of the street, gut-shot (the bullet found a little crack to slip through on the side of the body armor), while cops were still having a stand-off, with a few shots zinging by my head.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

We've had two people with legitimate medical backgrounds say that the seizure in the video could have been real. What's your medical training that leads you to conclude that it was not?

I'm an RN with 24 years experience working with neurology patients. I've seen hundreds of seizures and probably a hundred fake seizures, as well as conversion disorders (which are not seizures, but they're not fake seizures either).

The person faking the seizure in the video demonstrated purposeful movement (flipping his body over, smacking the wall) that is never seen in real seizures.

It wasn't even a good fake seizure.

[flickster]

Brom the above linked Baltimore Sun report

The owner of the Rosedale McDonald's announced Saturday afternoon that the employee who taped the beating had been fired.

"My first and foremost concern is with the victim," franchise owner Mitchell McPherson said in a statement, adding that action might be taken against other restaurant workers as well. "I'm as shocked and disturbed by this assault as anyone would be. The behavior displayed in the video is unfathomable and reprehensible."


Which means, "Sh*t, I'll be lucky to have a dime left after this legal battle is done"

As for the two attackers:

County police confirmed that the attack occurred April 18 in the 6300 block of Kenwood Ave. Police said the 14-year-old girl has been charged as a juvenile, while charges were pending against an 18-year-old woman. Reached Saturday, police officials said the investigation was continuing.

[Inner Stickler]

I'm an RN with 24 years experience working with neurology patients. I've seen hundreds of seizures and probably a hundred fake seizures, as well as conversion disorders (which are not seizures, but they're not fake seizures either).

The person faking the seizure in the video demonstrated purposeful movement (flipping his body over, smacking the wall) that is never seen in real seizures.

It wasn't even a good fake seizure.
Why is it so important to you that it be a fake seizure?

[tnetennba]

Nobody with a legitimate medical background would attempt to speak authoritatively about somebody's medical condition based on something they saw on YouTube.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Why is it so important to you that it be a fake seizure?

It's not. I was merely responding to all the conjecture.

In fact, I think it was a very smart move.


mmm

[China Guy]

Oddly enough, responsible news reports (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-mcdonalds-beating-20110423,0,3336656.story)now write: The video shows two females — one of them a 14-year-old girl — repeatedly kicking and punching Polis in the head as an employee and a patron try to intervene. Others can be heard laughing, and men are seen standing idly by.

Not quite the black on white lynch mob that were called out initially - despite having seen the same video.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Nobody with a legitimate medical background would attempt to speak authoritatively about somebody's medical condition based on something they saw on YouTube.

You are right. I should have been clear that it is merely my opinion that it is fake.

[Superdude]

You are right. I should have been clear that it is merely my opinion that it is fake.

It certainly could be fake. Without being able to assess the patient at the time, I couldn't say for certain. It doesn't seem indicative of an epileptic seizure, but it's certainly in the realm of possibility that the victim had some sort of seizure disorder, coupled with the physical - and psychological - trauma of the event, that caused the reaction.

It's entirely possible that it's faked. It's also equally possible that it's real. You know as well as I do (and I don't mean that to sound snarky) that we have to treat it as legit until proven otherwise.

[Jamaika a jamaikaiaké]

I'm guessing the verbal altercation started over something like an un-paid crack bill.

[Villager in the St. Bedevere scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail]
Because ..... black people .... use ..... crack?
[\VitSBsfMPatHG]

[PlainJain]

I know! They're shitty tippers too.
Note how they didn't even spill their Tiger Woods while dishing out the beatdown. Fuckin' canadians are the shit.

[Khaki Campbell]

[self-censored]

[enomaj]

Nobody with a legitimate medical background would attempt to speak authoritatively about somebody's medical condition based on something they saw on YouTube.

WRONG!

Cite (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBYk4F164Hk):D

[flodnak]

... unless she had some pre-existing medical condition. Seizure disorders aren't terribly uncommon, you realize.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

You know as well as I do (and I don't mean that to sound snarky) that we have to treat it as legit until proven otherwise.

Well, on the job we do; in this setting we are free to speculate. :D

Maybe I'm just jaded. When co-workers and I see a (badly) faked seizure, we just sort of roll our eyes. Don't get me wrong - we respond. And we monitor. We've even treated. But when it is obvious to the point of being ridiculous (for example, the patient watching you out of the corner of his eye while he's 'seizing'), and when it happens every twenty minutes, you start to feel manipulated.

I should also point out that I am in a position to know EEG results of patients with 'seizure disorders', and therefore often get confirmation on whether seizures I have witnessed have been legitimate.

With all that said, tnetennba was correct: it was irresponsible for me to state as fact that this was a fake. I posted in haste.


mmm

[tumbleddown]

From what I understand, before a transgendered person starts on the surgeries, s/he has to spend at least a year living as the desired gender. That is, a M2F person has to dress as a woman, and act like a woman...which includes using the women's room.
This is technically accurate within the required standards of care, but it's important to understand that transition does not always include surgery, for a variety of reasons, including personal preference, medical ineligibility or lack of finance. There is a very wide spectrum of personal circumstances that fall under the transgender umbrella.

That having been said, it doesn't matter what the state of the body of Chrissy Polis (the victim, a woman who is transgender, not a cross dresser, not a transvestite and not a he) is, what surgeries she has or has not undergone, what hormones she is or isn't taking or what her genitalia looks like. That's personal information, and nothing she needs to verify or qualify in order to access a women's restroom. She's lived as a woman for a number of years, and quite clearly she wasn't a danger to anyone by virtue of using the women's room.

And this is the case almost universally, which is why this case makes the childish "potty panic" that always arises when transgender protections are debated legislatively so clearly facile and backwards. No one can point to a any situation in which cisgender criminals have cross-dressed in order to gain access to women's rooms or changing facilities in order to molest, assault or voyeur. We can, however, point to situations that occur with alarming regularity where trans people are harassed, assaulted or arrested (and occasionally assaulted and arrested) for attempting to simply pee in the appropriate place.

Trans women are women, and are endangered when forced to use men's rooms (not mention that it's simply inappropriate) and equally endangered when they try to use women's rooms and cannot rely upon the protection of law and the societal progress that protection brings about. Trans men similarly don't belong in women's rooms, that they generally need to sit down to urinate is immaterial.

As for Chrissy Polis, I pray for her recovery, and the imprisonment of her attackers. I also look forward to the franchisee of this McDonald's location going broke paying her off.

[Starving Artist]

As for Chrissy Polis, I pray for her recovery, and the imprisonment of her attackers. I also look forward to the franchisee of this McDonald's location going broke paying her off.Why should the owner of the restaurant pay and go broke? Why should he, and presumably his wife and children, lose their income and the money they've invested in the store? Why should his employees, most of whom were not involved nor perhaps even working that shift, lose their jobs and benefits? How could the store owner have foreseen that this would happen, and what steps should he have been reasonably expected to take to prevent it happening? Lots of people will be negatively affected and hurt should the franchisee "go broke", so I'm just wondering what it is that you base your opinon on?

[Grumman]

Trans women are women,
No, they aren't. They are either men who place too much importance on traditional gender roles, or they are men with body dysmorphia. Neither of which makes them a woman.

[Steophan]

No, they aren't. They are either men who place too much importance on traditional gender roles, or they are men with body dysmorphia. Neither of which makes them a woman.

Exactly. The victim in this case had no business in a women's toilet. Not that he deserved the beating, and hopefully he'll get some form of restitution.

[Sinaptics]

Why should the owner of the restaurant pay and go broke? Why should he, and presumably his wife and children, lose their income and the money they've invested in the store? Why should his employees, most of whom were not involved nor perhaps even working that shift, lose their jobs and benefits? How could the store owner have foreseen that this would happen, and what steps should he have been reasonably expected to take to prevent it happening? Lots of people will be negatively affected and hurt should the franchisee "go broke", so I'm just wondering what it is that you base your opinon on?

The employees were acting under the authority of McDonalds. I'm not saying that the employees did anything wrong as I haven't even watched the video. But according to your statement, nobody should ever be able to sue a business for an employees' actions.

Perhaps the owner should have hired more competent managers rather than going for the cheapest available?

[Frank]

The employees were acting under the authority of McDonalds. I'm not saying that the employees did anything wrong as I haven't even watched the video.
Now I'm bewildered. Are you under the impression that it was employees beating up the customer?

[Sinaptics]

Now I'm bewildered. Are you under the impression that it was employees beating up the customer?

Negative. As I said, I haven't even watched the video. I even said that I wasn't saying that the employees did anything wrong. I do know that they guy recording did something wrong in his failure to provide assistance. However, I'm not sure that's criminal.

I was just commenting on SA's statement that the owner and employees shouldn't go out of business due to the actions of the players of this fiasco. If any employees where negligent, then McDonald's is certainly culpable.

[Inner Stickler]

I was wondering when the anti-trans people would come out of the woodwork. I'm glad that you're satisfied with the gender you are. I really am. Others are not so fortunate and not only do they have to deal with primitive and confusing medical and mental health care but they also get to be beaten up when they attempt to live the way they feel most right while assholes on the internet try to make the beatings their fault. Nice.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Exactly. The victim in this case had no business in a women's toilet. Not that he deserved the beating, and hopefully he'll get some form of restitution.
The victim was post-op. She was a woman.

[PlainJain]

But according to your statement, nobody should ever be able to sue a business for an employees' actions.

How the fuck did you get that out of his post?

[MeanOldLady]

How did that guy who posted all over facebook about it know she was a man? Am I missing something? The story began as some race war "Niggas will kill yo' ass" hysteria, which then morphed into transphobia, and then I think turned into a huge bitch fight between some chicks who thought some other chick was up their man's junk.

First I see two (fat black) girls beating up a (white) girl. Racial undertones run wild, and white people lose their collective shit.

Then I see thesmokinggun.com which tells me the assailants told the (white) girl and her penis to exit the ladies' room, at which point she became indignant and a fight ensued. Sources later confirm that the woman was, indeed, transgendered.

Then I see the interview with the victim, and apparently the fight began because the attackers thought the victim was trying to get action from one of the attacker's dudes?

So what the shit? Did the girls ever know that the victim was TG? How would they know if she was post-op? Did the TG thing come up as a motive for the assault later? Did the fight start because the victim was flirting with one of the girls' men, or because the assailants wanted the man out of the women's restroom? If the victim was post-op, how did that guy know to post all over his facebook page that the victim was born a man? Was she famous around town for being TG?

[Steophan]

The victim was post-op. She was a woman.

I guess a genetic test would demonstrate that...

[Inner Stickler]

My favorite part is how you think you're making a point.

[Steophan]

My favorite part is how you think you're making a point.

I am making a point. The point is that I believe, along with the vast majority of people, that gender is a physical thing, and immutable.

There are a very few people of indeterminate gender, genetically speaking, but there's no reason to think the victim in this case was one of them.

Of course he should not have been beaten up. He should also not have been advised by medical professionals that the best treatment for his mental issues is physical surgery.

[Joey P]

I am making a point. The point is that I believe, along with the vast majority of people, that gender is a physical thing, and immutable.

There are a very few people of indeterminate gender, genetically speaking, but there's no reason to think the victim in this case was one of them.

Of course he should not have been beaten up. He should also not have been advised by medical professionals that the best treatment for his mental issues is physical surgery.

I think what IS was saying (and even if I'm wrong, it'll probably turn out to be the case) is that this is the beginning of an argument with Dio, an argument that you can't win.
For the sake of the thread (and your sanity) I'd really suggest that you start a different thread on this subject rather then do it here. If you and Dio get into this here, this thread will be completely derailed and more then like closed by the mods with in the next day or two.

[Inner Stickler]

Your chromosomes determine your sex. Your gender is a much more complicated beast involving physical, mental, emotional and environmental factors. Anyone who thinks transgendered people are whiny is speaking from a position of ignorance. I don't give a fuck about the dio show. I give a fuck about the several trans people I know who have to deal with mouthbreathers like Steophan on a regular basis.

[Steophan]

I think what IS was saying (and even if I'm wrong, it'll probably turn out to be the case) is that this is the beginning of an argument with Dio, an argument that you can't win.
For the sake of the thread (and your sanity) I'd really suggest that you start a different thread on this subject rather then do it here. If you and Dio get into this here, this thread will be completely derailed and more then like closed by the mods with in the next day or two.

Fair enough. I actually probably won't start another thread, I've read enough about this subject to know no-one will ever change their minds on it.

[PlainJain]

<Puts gold star by Joey P's name>

[Steophan]

Your chromosomes determine your sex. Your gender is a much more complicated beast involving physical, mental, emotional and environmental factors. Anyone who thinks transgendered people are whiny is speaking from a position of ignorance. I don't give a fuck about the dio show. I give a fuck about the several trans people I know who have to deal with mouthbreathers like Steophan on a regular basis.

That's not what I said. If you think I don't care about their wellbeing, you completely misunderstood my post. I'm saying that I don't believe that surgery is the way to deal with their issues. You disagree, fair enough. I doubt there's a constructive debate to be had here, so I'm leaving it now.

[Joey P]

Fair enough. I actually probably won't start another thread, I've read enough about this subject to know no-one will ever change their minds on it.

I promised myself I wasn't going to post to this thread. At the beginning it was clear we didn't know all the details. The girls came back several times, no one was stopping them, some one was recording it, I assumed it wasn't a random thing and that more details would be coming out...clearly they did. Anyways, I've been enjoying just following along with the thread, and I'd be kind of disappointed if it got derailed into a gender vs sex, nature vs nurture or dio vs everyone thread. Especially since the latter would likely get closed

[Eyebrows 0f Doom]

I think what IS was saying (and even if I'm wrong, it'll probably turn out to be the case) is that this is the beginning of an argument with Dio, an argument that you can't win.
For the sake of the thread (and your sanity) I'd really suggest that you start a different thread on this subject rather then do it here. If you and Dio get into this here, this thread will be completely derailed and more then like closed by the mods with in the next day or two.

Except in this case Dio is correct.

[tnetennba]

Fair enough. I actually probably won't start another thread, I've read enough about this subject to know no-one will ever change their minds on it.

Well, it's one thing to read about a subject and another to actually talk to the people you're reading about. That is what changed MY mind about it.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I guess a genetic test would demonstrate that...
So basically, you're just trolling, huh?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Fair enough. I actually probably won't start another thread, I've read enough about this subject to know no-one will ever change their minds on it.
You've clearly never read jack shit about the subject.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I promised myself I wasn't going to post to this thread. At the beginning it was clear we didn't know all the details. The girls came back several times, no one was stopping them, some one was recording it, I assumed it wasn't a random thing and that more details would be coming out...clearly they did. Anyways, I've been enjoying just following along with the thread, and I'd be kind of disappointed if it got derailed into a gender vs sex, nature vs nurture or dio vs everyone thread. Especially since the latter would likely get closedWhy do you keep bringing my name into it? What the fuck did I do?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

That's not what I said. If you think I don't care about their wellbeing, you completely misunderstood my post.
If you cared about them, you wouldn't be trolling by using the masculine pronoun. Your intent is to antogonize and to smirk. I don't care if that's how you want to view the subject, but don't pretend you have any concern about their feelings.

[MeanOldLady]

Wow four in a row. I only posted so that you wouldn't make it to five.

[Superdude]

Except in this case Dio is correct.

You had to say that, didn't you? Now he will never stop. :D

Dio, I'm just playing. Nothing intended by it.

[Hentor the Barbarian]

I think what IS was saying (and even if I'm wrong, it'll probably turn out to be the case) is that this is the beginning of an argument with Dio, an argument that you can't win.
For the sake of the thread (and your sanity) I'd really suggest that you start a different thread on this subject rather then do it here. If you and Dio get into this here, this thread will be completely derailed and more then like closed by the mods with in the next day or two.This here was a real dick post.

[Belowjob2.0]

How did that guy who posted all over facebook about it know she was a man? Am I missing something? The story began as some race war "Niggas will kill yo' ass" hysteria, which then morphed into transphobia, and then I think turned into a huge bitch fight between some chicks who thought some other chick was up their man's junk.

First I see two (fat black) girls beating up a (white) girl. Racial undertones run wild, and white people lose their collective shit.

Then I see thesmokinggun.com which tells me the assailants told the (white) girl and her penis to exit the ladies' room, at which point she became indignant and a fight ensued. Sources later confirm that the woman was, indeed, transgendered.

Then I see the interview with the victim, and apparently the fight began because the attackers thought the victim was trying to get action from one of the attacker's dudes?

So what the shit? Did the girls ever know that the victim was TG? How would they know if she was post-op? Did the TG thing come up as a motive for the assault later? Did the fight start because the victim was flirting with one of the girls' men, or because the assailants wanted the man out of the women's restroom? If the victim was post-op, how did that guy know to post all over his facebook page that the victim was born a man? Was she famous around town for being TG?

http://www.baltimoresun.com/videobeta/4e64b7a6-b94f-42c1-8ac7-bf480222eda4/News/Victim-speaks-out-about-attack-at-McDonald-s

They couldn't know for sure, but she probably seemed transgendered, or transvestite to them. Since she's had prostitution convictions in the past, she may have been working in the neighborhood at some point.

[Sampiro]

This here was a real dick post.

Not if it's been surgically removed.

If I were to learn that the transgendered woman exposed herself in the restroom, used a racial slur and then slapped the two women it wouldn't much change the verdict in the case. I'd forgive them their initial slapping of her perhaps but as I said before, the fact that they came back again and again is why they need to be in numbered jumpsuits.

[CanvasShoes]

Like MOL, I would also like to know how the idiot child who filmed (and later facebooked) the whole thing knew this girl was really born a man. And I'd also like to know what REALLY started the whole thing (the victim admits she was intoxicated according to the news report where her interview tape was located). If it really was that they were somehow beating on her because of her gender status, then they had to have known her from before, because it's not that obvious she's a guy.

[sugaree]

Well, I don't know how Idiot Child knew, but on the video, when the white woman referred to the victim as "she," Idiot Child (I think--could have been one of the two standing next to him, but I think it was Idiot Child), burst out laughing with "That's a man! That's a man!"

[tumbleddown]

The victim was post-op. She was a woman.
Whether she was "post-op" (as if there's one op, which there isn't) is irrelevant. She's a woman, period. Because she says so.
That's not what I said. If you think I don't care about their wellbeing, you completely misunderstood my post. I'm saying that I don't believe that surgery is the way to deal with their issues. You disagree, fair enough. I doubt there's a constructive debate to be had here, so I'm leaving it now.
I'm glad you're leaving it now. While you're gone, think about why you think that you have the requisite knowledge or understanding of the topic to allow a phrase like "I don't believe that..." to come out of your fingers via the keyboard. What you believe, in your vast ignorance, is so far beyond immaterial that it's painful that you even bothered typing the words.

[BigT]

Even back when I believed pretty close to Steophan, I still would never have been such a jerk to refer to someone by a different gender than the one they preferred. You don't accomplish anything by using the "wrong" gender other than pissing people off.

This here was a real dick post.

Bullshit. It's exactly what a lot of people need to learn to do. Explain things in a way that would make sense to the other side. Come at it from their point of view, even if their point of view is wrong.

Mentioning Dio's inabliity to let something go is something you can count on 99% of the SDMB to agree on, even if, in this case, he would be far from the only one arguing, and would not be wrong to do so. You can always bring it back on topic when we get more information, or just if you want to talk about it.

I'd do it myself, but I'm not sure what else is left to talk about.

[BigT]

Wait. I did think of one thing:

I wonder if the law mentioned regards pre-op or even post-op transexuals as their preferred gender. I'm pretty sure some states don't, and that would mean she broke the law, even if, in my opinion, she was right to do so. (And there's no way those other people should have taken the law into their own hands--as if that was even possibly their motivation.)

[bengangmo]

Whether she was "post-op" (as if there's one op, which there isn't) is irrelevant. She's a woman, period. Because she says so.



Eer...so by this reasoning I can use the ladies changing room next time I go swimming just by repeating "I am a lady"?

I don't want to get into a transgendered debate, but I think that's going a little too far to one end of the spectrum....

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Bullshit. It's exactly what a lot of people need to learn to do. Explain things in a way that would make sense to the other side. Come at it from their point of view, even if their point of view is wrong.

Mentioning Dio's inabliity to let something go is something you can count on 99% of the SDMB to agree on, even if, in this case, he would be far from the only one arguing, and would not be wrong to do so. You can always bring it back on topic when we get more information, or just if you want to talk about it.

I'd do it myself, but I'm not sure what else is left to talk about.There was nothing in Inner Stickler’s post that was remotely suggestive of Joey P’s bullshit. It was pure projection from a member of the Douchebags with Sticks Platoon, and an example of how you dipshits carry this fucking tiresome bullshit from one thread to another trying to provoke shit.

Knock it the fuck off because it is fucking played out. The board does not need your Douchebag Show stick-poking shit anymore.

Now, let me ask you straight up whether you, Joey P. and PlainJane agree with Steophan’s assertion that there is no such thing as a transgendered person. I’m going to assume that since you are taking up his defense in this thread that you do, and I am thus going to mentally mark you down as a completely regressive shit for brains.

Otherwise, if you don’t believe that, then you all are defending the position that there is no such thing as a transgendered person simply for the pure sake of poking Dio with sticks, which makes you look even fucking worse.

[Trincomalee]

This all puts me in mind of a case in the UK, when a couple of completely inoffensive cross-dressing 'girls' in the Welsh valleys were attacked by drunken thugs (who had already been involved in a barney just up the street).

One of the girls was caught by a surprise blow, followed rapidly by three or four hefty punches and a few solid kicks to boot!

Fortunately the scene was captured on street surveillance video (see below).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJvLTWGs-SE

You can hear a few words from one of the poor girls - Daniel(le) 'Lights Out' Lerwell - in the page below. (Suggestive moniker eh?)
- and no, your audio is not on the fritz. (If you were expecting Richard Burton!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8296190.stm

These 'Valley Girls' eh? - though I've heard you have some in California as well?

Anyway, the story has a happy ending in that the yobs were later rounded up by the local plods and carted off to gaol.

Just goes to show that no-one is above the law - (of the jungle that is!)

[ralph124c]

I'm waiting for the two purveyors of racial justice (Rev.s Sharpton and Jackson) to weigh in on this!:confused:

[matt]

Really? You would have put yourself in front of these chicks?

What if the she-cows started beating the hell out of you? Does your superior male strength hold out against a 2 on 1 from angry gangster bitches? What happens if the only way for you to survive is punch one of these heifers in the face? No joke, you could go to jail for beating on a woman. Generally speaking, the law sees it as the man's fault in these kinds of altercations, even if the woman started it.Not wanting to hijack this, but is that seriously the situation in the USA? Two women are kicking someone on the ground and you have to worry about hurting them if you intervene?

I got in the way of three women who were kicking at a fourth on the ground a few years back, fortunately without getting hurt, but I was certainly ready to punch full force if they'd turned on me. There were plenty of witnesses to back up that I was preventing an assault if it had come to it.

[athelas]

In cases with lots of unbiased onlookers you might be okay. But before you're so sure about the egalitarianism of the law, check out how it responds to domestic violence by men vs by women.

[China Guy]

This all puts me in mind of a case in the UK, when a couple of completely inoffensive cross-dressing 'girls' in the Welsh valleys were attacked by drunken thugs (who had already been involved in a barney just up the street).

One of the girls was caught by a surprise blow, followed rapidly by three or four hefty punches and a few solid kicks to boot!

Fortunately the scene was captured on street surveillance video (see below).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJvLTWGs-SE

You can hear a few words from one of the poor girls - Daniel(le) 'Lights Out' Lerwell - in the page below. (Suggestive moniker eh?)
- and no, your audio is not on the fritz. (If you were expecting Richard Burton!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8296190.stm

These 'Valley Girls' eh? - though I've heard you have some in California as well?

Anyway, the story has a happy ending in that the yobs were later rounded up by the local plods and carted off to gaol.

Just goes to show that no-one is above the law - (of the jungle that is!)
Bwahahahahahaahaha. Man, that was two pretty solid right hooks in less than 2 seconds.

[fumster]

I'm waiting for the two purveyors of racial justice (Rev.s Sharpton and Jackson) to weigh in on this!:confused:No, but your post is. For that matter, your entire pathetic life is.

[SteveG1]

I like all the tough guy keyboard commentators. Here's what happens if you help a stranger in a fight:

1. they beat you up instead
2. her friends laughing and egging them on and taping it beat you into a coma
3. you get stabbed
4. you get shot

There were times when I did get involved. I'm still around. Sometimes you just have to just do what is right and to hell with the "noise" and the bull.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I'm waiting for the two purveyors of racial justice (Rev.s Sharpton and Jackson) to weigh in on this!:confused:
Why? What did race have to do with it?

It may have been motivated by bigotry, but it wasn't racial bigotry.

[Sampiro]

Since one of the girls is 14, can she be charged with a felony in Maryland?

[tumbleddown]

Eer...so by this reasoning I can use the ladies changing room next time I go swimming just by repeating "I am a lady"?
Are you living as a woman 24/7? No? Then obviously not.

Let's not be ridamndiculous. The point is that there isn't A surgery. There is no such thing as pre-op versus post-op where one magically confers the status of woman on someone and those who haven't reached that magic threshold can't be recognized as women socially or legally. The "standards" vary by geography, which boil down to no standard at all.

People have a right to self-determination and self-identification. If someone says that they identify as a woman (not that on a given day that they're dressed like a woman) then that's who they are.

[bengangmo]

Are you living as a woman 24/7? No? Then obviously not.

Let's not be ridamndiculous. The point is that there isn't A surgery. There is no such thing as pre-op versus post-op where one magically confers the status of woman on someone and those who haven't reached that magic threshold can't be recognized as women socially or legally. The "standards" vary by geography, which boil down to no standard at all.

People have a right to self-determination and self-identification. If someone says that they identify as a woman (not that on a given day that they're dressed like a woman) then that's who they are.

:D That's a bit different.


And yes - I was just plucking hairs.

I fully understand that it's a process, and the key identifier (at least in the first instance) is how someone self identifies. Living as a woman, wants to be a woman = a woman (iin most cases) in my book.

But I don't think it's helpful just to say "she said she's a woman, so end of story" - it's a little more complex than that. :)

[kaylasdad99]

This here was a real dick post.

Not if it's been surgically removed.
I thought it wasn't actually removal as such, more of a reconfiguration thing, involving some internal tissue excision, followed by turning the member inside-out to convert it into a vagina.