Connecticut has nor coastline - really?

[ticker]

I was just watching a TV game show "Pointless" here in the UK. This show is usually pretty much on-the-money accuracy wise but I was taken aback a bit by one round. Contestants were asked to each name one of the 22 US states with a coast. They then went on to say that "for geographical reasons we won't accept either Pennsylvania or Connecticut - they have tidal shorelines but not technically a coast".

What!!??? As far as I can see Pennsylvania has a shoreline on Lake Erie but is quite a ways from the ocean. I can see how that makes in ineligible but not why they single it out when several states are in the same situation. Connecticut on the other hand has several hundred miles of what look very much like coast to me. It also has the US Coast Guard Academy and a Navy Submarine base. Is there any legitimacy to the show not accepting CT?

[cjepson]

The rationale must be that Connecticut's shoreline lies entirely on Long Island Sound rather than the Atlantic Ocean per se. Seems like hair-splitting to me, though.

Pennsylvania's "tidal shoreline" is presumably the lower part of the Delaware River where it turns into Delaware Bay.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Long Island Sound is an estuary, which typically don't get counted as part of the sea even though they are saltwater.

[Boyo Jim]

Was Illinois one of them? Some years ago they managed to get a court to rule that Lake Michigan is "an arm of the sea", so they could compete for the America's Cup. That would suggest they have a coastline too.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Since it's a UK show, I doubt they care about where an American court thinks the sea ends.

[Skammer]

Did they count Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama? If those count, being on the Gulf of Mexico and not the Atlantic, I would have counted Connecticut.

[CC]

Was Illinois one of them? Some years ago they managed to get a court to rule that Lake Michigan is "an arm of the sea", so they could compete for the America's Cup. That would suggest they have a coastline too.Yep, and our local NPR outlet in Chicago (on the shores of Lake Michigan), WBEZ, started a wonderful series of radio programs that they named the Third Coast Festival, proving for once and for all that there is a coast here. QED

[Elendil's Heir]

The Cleveland, Ohio area is sometimes called in local media "the North Coast."

Seems lame, and pedantic to a fault, to say that Conn. and Penna. don't have a "coast."

[DrFidelius]

The Cleveland, Ohio area is sometimes called in local media "the North Coast."

Seems lame, and pedantic to a fault, to say that Conn. and Penna. don't have a "coast."

"Lame, and pedantic to a fault" describes most UK knowledge-based game shows.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Did they count Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama? If those count, being on the Gulf of Mexico and not the Atlantic, I would have counted Connecticut.
The Gulf of Mexico is part of the Atlantic. Long Island Sound isn't.

[fiddlesticks]

The Gulf of Mexico has been claimed as the "Third Coast (http://www.tcmnradio.com/what.htm)" too.

[Giles]

Where do they draw the line (literally)? Does Italy have a coast, or is the Mediterranean just a "tidal estuary"? Does the Isle of Man have a coast? How big do you have to be to not be counted as an estuary?

[Keeve]

The Gulf of Mexico is part of the Atlantic. Long Island Sound isn't.My guess is slightly different: Gulf of Mexico is international waters; Long Island Sound isn't.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Where do they draw the line (literally)? Does Italy have a coast, or is the Mediterranean just a "tidal estuary"? Does the Isle of Man have a coast? How big do you have to be to not be counted as an estuary?
Big enough that there's no measurable reduction in your salt level from the fresh water sources flowing into you. I don't think there's really a hard and fast rule beyond that.
My guess is slightly different: Gulf of Mexico is international waters; Long Island Sound isn't.
Eh? The coastline along the Gulf of Mexico is definitely not international waters.

[kanicbird]

Big enough that there's no measurable reduction in your salt level from the fresh water sources flowing into you. I don't think there's really a hard and fast rule beyond that.

There is a differing salt concentration between the Pacific and Atlantic, what would be the standard? Perhaps the Atlantic is a tidal estuary then,

[Colibri]

Long Island Sound is an estuary, which typically don't get counted as part of the sea even though they are saltwater.

At least according to the definition in Merriam-Webster, Long Island Sound would not count as one (although I see that Wiki does call it an estuary). I don't recall ever having heard it referred to as one.

Definition of ESTUARY

: a water passage where the tide meets a river current; especially : an arm of the sea at the lower end of a river

As far as I know, around Long Island Sound the tide meets river currents within the mouths of the rivers flowing into it (such as Bronx portion of the East River), and those would be the actual estuaries. The tidal flow in the Sound itself is not affected significantly by river currents, so it is not an estuary.

There would seem to be good pedantic reasons to consider Connecticut to have a coastline.

[Really Not All That Bright]

At least according to the definition in Merriam-Webster, Long Island Sound would not count as one (although I see that Wiki does call it an estuary). I don't recall ever having heard it referred to as one.
I don't know anything about Long Island Sound. I looked it up and went with Wiki's description without reading further.

[muldoonthief]

The Cleveland, Ohio area is sometimes called in local media "the North Coast."

Seems lame, and pedantic to a fault, to say that Conn. and Penna. don't have a "coast."

Agree on Connecticut, but I don't know why anyone would think PA has an oceanic coast - the Delaware is very much still a river by the time it leaves the state. It may be a tidal estuary of sorts, but if you can stand right on the riverbank and see the other side, it's still a river for my money.

Based on inspection, here are the 22 states I'd guess are correct:

Atlantic:
Maine
New Hampshire
Massachusetts
Rhode Island
New York
New Jersey
Delaware
Maryland
Virginia
North Carolina
South Carolina
Georgia
Florida
Alabama
Mississippi
Louisiana
Texas

Pacific:
California
Oregon
Washington
Alaska
Hawaii

[suranyi]

For geographers, there is a technical difference between coastline and shoreline. Connecticut has no coastline, but it does have shoreline. See this table. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001801.html)

[Ludovic]

Big enough that there's no measurable reduction in your salt level from the fresh water sources flowing into you. I don't think there's really a hard and fast rule beyond that.
But nearly every rule will have weird outliers. By the salinity rule, Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_sea#Salinity) doesn't have an eastern coast.

[Giles]

For geographers, there is a technical difference between coastline and shoreline. Connecticut has no coastline, but it does have shoreline. See this table. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001801.html)
Using that definition, I would think that the Mediterranean is an estuary and has no coastline, since the Straights of Gibraltar are too narrow.

[Peremensoe]

I'm still not clear on the distinction between "coastline" and "tidal shoreline." Don't all ocean coasts experience at least diurnal tides?

[Chronos]

The Gulf of Mexico is part of the Atlantic. Long Island Sound isn't. So it's, what? Part of the Pacific? Or the Indian Ocean, maybe?

[paperbackwriter]

Only by torturing definitions can this claim be considered to have any amount of truth. The table suryani linked to claims CT has a freshwater shoreline, which is a frankly laughable claim. Salinity ranges from 23.5 parts per thousand to 35 parts per thousand (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD018125&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf) as you go from west to east. Only at the most restricted waters of the New York end could that be called anything other than clearly saline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salinity). The salinity is not far off the range for the waters immediately outside the Sound. In fact,if you applied that standard to the coastlines in general, you'd eliminate a large part of the entire Pacific Coast. (ftp://ftp.nodc.noaa.gov/pub/WOA05F/salinity/PDF/s_1_0_1.pdf)

I'd call that not merely pedantic to a fault, but pedantic to the point of idiocy.

[Keeve]

I'd like to know how that table gets 89 miles of tidal shoreline for Pennsylvania.

It can't be on Lake Erie, because then Ohio would be on the chart. Therefore, it has to be the Delaware River, right? But if it was the entire Delaware River, it would be more like 200 miles, from Delaware, winding its way up to New York. Therefore, it has to be part of the Delaware River.

But which part?

[Acsenray]

My guess would have been that the boundaries of Connecticut and Pennsylvania are drawn in such a manner as to exclude the portion of their shorelines that actually touch the water.

[Freddy the Pig]

But which part?The lower part, which rises and falls with the tides. Further upstream the current of the river overwhelms and stops the tidewater.

[Acsenray]

According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_coastline) Wikipedia article, Connecticut does have a coastline. And the second table includes Great Lakes shores as coastline.

And this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast) Wikipedia article says:

A pelagic coast refers to a coast which fronts the open ocean, as opposed to a more sheltered coast in a gulf or bay. A shore, on the other hand, can refer to parts of the land which adjoin any large body of water, including oceans (sea shore) and lakes (lake shore).

This seems to imply that there is such a thing as a non-pelagic coast that fronts on a gulf or a bay. That would seem to me to include Connecticut's shoreline.

[Colibri]

I'd like to know how that table gets 89 miles of tidal shoreline for Pennsylvania.

It can't be on Lake Erie, because then Ohio would be on the chart. Therefore, it has to be the Delaware River, right? But if it was the entire Delaware River, it would be more like 200 miles, from Delaware, winding its way up to New York. Therefore, it has to be part of the Delaware River.

But which part?

The part that's affected by tides. The lower part of the Delaware is affected by tides, and that is the tidal shoreline. Higher up the river is not affected by tides.

[Keeve]

The lower part, which rises and falls with the tides. Further upstream the current of the river overwhelms and stops the tidewater.By that definition, the tidal shoreline should be shorter than the coastline, because it is only a potion of it. But in every case, the shoreline is longer. I still don't understand the difference between the two.

[Elendil's Heir]

Discussions like this are why I LOVE the Dope.

[postcards]

For geographers, there is a technical difference between coastline and shoreline. Connecticut has no coastline, but it does have shoreline. See this table. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001801.html)

I'm still not clear on the distinction between "coastline" and "tidal shoreline." Don't all ocean coasts experience at least diurnal tides?

And wouldn't Hawaii have the same number of miles in both its shoreline and coastline?

[Colibri]

By that definition, the tidal shoreline should be shorter than the coastline, because it is only a potion of it. But in every case, the shoreline is longer. I still don't understand the difference between the two.

The tidal shoreline includes the outer, oceanic coastline, plus the parts of estuaries affected by tides. So the coastline will always be shorter than the tidal shoreline.

[Colibri]

And wouldn't Hawaii have the same number of miles in both its shoreline and coastline?

Pearl Harbor, for one example, would be tidal shoreline but not coastline.

[paperbackwriter]

This seems to imply that there is such a thing as a non-pelagic coast that fronts on a gulf or a bay. That would seem to me to include Connecticut's shoreline.
But I see no way to construct a definition of "coastline" that excludes all of CT's coast while also including all of Texas's, Louisiana's, Mississippi's, Alabama's, and most of Florida's.

[An Arky]

...

[Acsenray]

But I see no way to construct a definition of "coastline" that excludes all of CT's coast while also including all of Texas's, Louisiana's, Mississippi's, Alabama's, and most of Florida's.

I'm confused by your use of "but." you didn't contradict anything I said.

[davidm]

It's beyond me why anyone would feel the need to specifically exclude Pennsylvania. Who could possibly consider it to have a coast?

[Polycarp]

It's beyond me why anyone would feel the need to specifically exclude Pennsylvania. Who could possibly consider it to have a coast?

Perhaps the fact that Philadelphia has for almost all of American history been a major ocean port might induce someone to think so. Actually it's a matter of arbitrary definition where the Delaware River becomes Delaware Bay -- it's clearly bay at Lewes and clearly river at Trenton NJ, but at what point between them does it transition? And why there?

[jasonh300]

But I see no way to construct a definition of "coastline" that excludes all of CT's coast while also including all of Texas's, Louisiana's, Mississippi's, Alabama's, and most of Florida's.

Because the Gulf of Mexico is part of the Atlantic Ocean. It's not a separate body of water.

Not that anyone who lives on the Gulf Coast would ever say they live on the Atlantic Ocean.

[Acsenray]

Because the Gulf of Mexico is part of the Atlantic Ocean. It's not a separate body of water.

This is nonsense unless you can offer a geological, not lexical, reason why the relationship between the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic Ocean is meaningfully different from the relationship between Long Island Sound and the Atlantic Ocean.

[Polycarp]

This is nonsense unless you can offer a geological, not lexical, reason why the relationship between the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic Ocean is meaningfully different from the relationship between Long Island Sound and the Atlantic Ocean.

Geologically, the Gulf of Mexico is on the Norfth American Plate, but the Caribbean Sea is on its own small plate, intruded between the North American and South American plates.

The logic to this peculiar statement which the OP asks about, so far as I'm able to grasp it, is that the "coast line" jumps across from Rhode Island to the tip of Long Island, treating Long Island Sound like a river estuary or Delaware or Chesapeake Bays.

[Acsenray]

Geologically, the Gulf of Mexico is on the Norfth American Plate, but the Caribbean Sea is on its own small plate, intruded between the North American and South American plates.

I've never heard of defining the boundaries of bodies of water according to what geological plate is underneath. Does it have any effect on the actual physical properties of the body of water above?

The logic to this peculiar statement which the OP asks about, so far as I'm able to grasp it, is that the "coast line" jumps across from Rhode Island to the tip of Long Island, treating Long Island Sound like a river estuary or Delaware or Chesapeake Bays.

That makes it sound like it's merely an issue of units of measure. So, as asked above, do the Mediterranean countries not have coasts?

[paperbackwriter]

I'm confused by your use of "but." you didn't contradict anything I said.

I wasn't contradicting, what you said, I was extending it. Like you, I don't see how Long Island Sound different from the Gulf except in size. Heck, I don't see how it is any different from neighboring Block Island Sound or Buzzard's Bay, Vineyard Sound, and Nantucket Sound further east.

[Polycarp]

I've never heard of defining the boundaries of bodies of water according to what geological plate is underneath. Does it have any effect on the actual physical properties of the body of water above?

You'd asked about geology, so I provided what useful data I could. AFAIK the only real influence of plates is in questions of depth and seabottom topography (trenches and rises, or level plains?) and their influence on water surface conditions.



That makes it sound like it's merely an issue of units of measure. So, as asked above, do the Mediterranean countries not have coasts?

Italy, Greece, Croatia, Libya, etc., do not have Atlantic Ocean coastline, the Mediterranean being regarded as a distinct body of water (which in fact it is, being along with the Black Sea the last remnants of the Iapetus Ocean of Mesozoic times).

I completely agree that it's pretty much arbitrary where one makes those leaps to say "this embayment counts as coastline, this one does not." I simply tried to identify what rationale might be used to say that Connecticut has no ocean coast.

[TriPolar]

Rhode Island is the Ocean State. Massachusetts is the Bay State. Take a look at the maps and explain that one.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

Darn. I liked having a coast.

:(

[Acsenray]

You'd asked about geology, so I provided what useful data I could. AFAIK the only real influence of plates is in questions of depth and seabottom topography (trenches and rises, or level plains?) and their influence on water surface conditions.

I suppose I should have said oceanographic.

[robert_columbia]

Ok, let's do it with Canada:

Provinces and territories with Coastline

British Columbia (Pacific)
Yukon (Arctic)
Northwest Territories (Arctic)
Nunavut (Arctic)
Nova Scotia (Atlantic)
Newfoundland and Labrador (Atlantic)

Shoreline, but no coast:

Manitoba (Hudson Bay)
Ontario (Hudson Bay, several Great Lakes)
Quebec (Hudson Bay, Ungava Bay, Gulf of St. Lawrence)
New Brunswick (Bay of Fundy, Gulf of St. Lawrence)
Prince Edward Island (Gulf of St. Lawrence)

No shoreline at all:

Alberta
Saskatchewan

[Colophon]

I don't think it's to do with Long Island Sound being classed as an estuary.

As per Wikipedia, I think the "technicality" is based on the fact that Connecticut is cut off from the open ocean by New York - see the map here (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=41.261944,-72.007222&ie=UTF8&ll=41.085562,-72.680054&spn=1.086823,2.757568&z=9).

New York state extends "offshore" from the CT coast so that there is a tripoint with Rhode Island. A small portion of RI territorial waters completes the "cutoff". In other words, because NY has a border with RI, CT cannot have a border with the ocean (the four-colour map theorem....)

So basically, you can't get from CT to the open Atlantic without passing through either NY or RI. I agree that this is a stupid distinction though, and I would say it has a sea coast.

[suranyi]

This is nonsense unless you can offer a geological, not lexical, reason why the relationship between the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic Ocean is meaningfully different from the relationship between Long Island Sound and the Atlantic Ocean.

In this context the issue is not geology, but geography. You need a geographical reason, not a lexical reason, and not a geological reason.

[Colophon]

In this context the issue is not geology, but geography. You need a geographical reason, not a lexical reason, and not a geological reason.
As I said in my previous post, the geographic reason is that New York and Rhode Island form a contiguous barrier cutting off Connecticut from the ocean.

[Baron Greenback]

"Lame, and pedantic to a fault" describes most UK knowledge-based game shows.

You will be able to support this? I'll give you "lame", but am intrigued about "pedantic to a fault". Cheers.

[Baron Greenback]

Hint: QI isn't the entirety of UK knowledge-based game shows

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

As I said in my previous post, the geographic reason is that New York and Rhode Island form a contiguous barrier cutting off Connecticut from the ocean.

I've long advocated for the annexation of RI by Connecticut. All the more reason now.

:D

[paperbackwriter]

Hold on a sec -- Annexing RI means we not only get Newport, Brown, and Federal Hill, we also get the Patriarcas and Ciancis. That doesn't sound like such a deal to me.

[Elendil's Heir]

But if Rhode Island is annexed, all those size comparisons (be it for icebergs, asteroids or Hollywood egos) of "this is X times bigger than Rhode Island" won't have quite the same oomph.

[ticker]

Hint: QI isn't the entirety of UK knowledge-based game shows

What has QI got to do with this discussion?

[KCB615]

I've long advocated for the annexation of RI by Connecticut. All the more reason now.

:D

If ever there was a case for "be careful what you wish for, you might get it," that is it.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

If ever there was a case for "be careful what you wish for, you might get it," that is it.

That's true... but we could use a great big parking lot... :)

Sorry! :)

[Peremensoe]

"Coastline" and "tidal shoreline" sure sound like terms that should describe the land, not just the map. This idea that imaginary lines out in open water between Rhode Island and New York change the character of the Connecticut shore seems pretty much nonsense.

[Darth Panda]

Seems to me that if you can launch a fleet across the seas from where you are without using a river, you're on the coast.

[samjones]

Hi everybody - new poster.

The claim that Connecticut has no coastline is correct because New York state and Rhode Island share a maritime border. In fact their land border is much closer than one might think. There isn't much more than 2 nauts between Fischer's Island, NY and Watch Hill, RI. There is no "Connecticut" channel between them. Connecticut has no maritime claims that extend to international waters - therefore no "coastline".

Historically this has always been the case and it is not likely to change since New York State and Rhode Island both vigorously defend their maritime claims. It's part of downstate politics and has been for about 450 years now.