Derek Jeter backing Jorge Posada

[etv78]

For non-baseball fans, Yankee DH Posada arrived at the stadium, and seeing he'd been dropped to 9th. in the batting order (Posada is hitting .165), he asked for the night off. Jeter said, IHO, that Posada did nothing wrong. (Jeter isn't exactly lighting it up). Why aren't Jeter's actions being considered insubordination? In ANY other line of work, his opinion and $3 would be worth a cup of coffee. Jeter is an EMPLOYEE, as such, he has NO RIGHT to question his boss' decisions about a co-worker!

[Marley23]

Jeter is an EMPLOYEE, as such, he has NO RIGHT to question his boss' decisions about a co-worker!
Can you show where that is stipulated in Jeter's contract? I'm not Jeter, but I know I have the ability to question what my employers do. They don't have to listen to me, but if they demanded all their employees keep all criticisms to themselves, relations would become adversarial and they would probably have a hard time hiring people.

As far as I know, Jeter didn't criticize the team. His "insubordination" consisted of saying Posada didn't do anything wrong, should get a day off if he needed it, and did not need to apologize to the team for what happened over the weekend. The Yankees apparently saw it differently and were furious with Posada. I don't know what really happened (although I had a feeling there was going to be a problem when he was dropped to ninth - you may as well sit him at that point anyway). Posada hasn't been hitting worth a damn and has struggled with becoming a DH even though that was the right call by the team. I don't know how he felt physically on Sunday. At most I think his back was a secondary issue to his being unhappy about the change in the batting order. That's absolutely not how you want a player to respond to that kind of thing, but I was surprised they did not come to him ahead of time and offer him a few days off if he needed it, for example.

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

Jeter is an EMPLOYEE, as such, he has NO RIGHT to question his boss' decisions about a co-worker!

Is this a joke thread or do you really believe this about employees?

[Oakminster]

. Jeter is an EMPLOYEE, as such, he has NO RIGHT to question his boss' decisions about a co-worker!

Have you watched much sports....like....ever? Players comment on other players, coaches, trades, etc faily often.

For that matter, my relationship with my employer is such that I regularly question...and sometimes argue in loud and profane ways....whatever numbskulled bullshit they are trying to sell this week....

[etv78]

Is this a joke thread or do you really believe this about employees?

Not a joke at all. I'm stunned you think that how someone who isn't you is treated at work is your business. (provided obviously, the boss' behavior is legal)

[Marley23]

Not a joke at all. I'm stunned you think that how someone who isn't you is treated at work is your business.
So if someone above me fires someone who works for me, or works alongside me and shares my responsibilities, you feel I'm not allowed to register an opinion? Why not? The people above me might be my employers, but they're not the king. And what makes you think that's how a good employer wants to run his business? To even use the word insubordination figuratively here is ridiculous - this isn't the military, and Jeter didn't refuse an order or bash anyone. He stood behind his teammate, which in general is what you want a player to do. The Yankees don't seem to have had a problem with what he said.

[Southern Yankee]

For non-baseball fans, Yankee DH Posada arrived at the stadium, and seeing he'd been dropped to 9th. in the batting order (Posada is hitting .165), he asked for the night off. Jeter said, IHO, that Posada did nothing wrong. (Jeter isn't exactly lighting it up). Why aren't Jeter's actions being considered insubordination? In ANY other line of work, his opinion and $3 would be worth a cup of coffee. Jeter is an EMPLOYEE, as such, he has NO RIGHT to question his boss' decisions about a co-worker!

Sounds to ME like you've not followed professional American sports much, or this is a thinly veiled, poorly executed attempt to just spew Yankee hatred!

[etv78]

So if someone above me fires someone who works for me, or works alongside me and shares my responsibilities, you feel I'm not allowed to register an opinion? Why not? The people above me might be my employers, but they're not the king. And what makes you think that's how a good employer wants to run his business? To even use the word insubordination figuratively here is ridiculous - this isn't the military, and Jeter didn't refuse an order or bash anyone. He stood behind his teammate, which in general is what you want a player to do. The Yankees don't seem to have had a problem with what he said.

If it's a parallel co-worker (i.e. same job title/description), sure you have the right to get a heads up about it, but have NO right to a say in their fate. Military, like civilian life, has a pecking order, and Jeter is at the bottom of that pecking order. Oh, BTW, barring a descriminatory dismissal/harassment, the only responsibility a boss has to an employee is to assure their paycheck clears.

[Southern Yankee]

If it's a parallel co-worker (i.e. same job title/description), sure you have the right to get a heads up about it, but have NO right to a say in their fate. Military, like civilian life, has a pecking order, and Jeter is at the bottom of that pecking order. Oh, BTW, barring a descriminatory dismissal/harassment, the only responsibility a boss has to an employee is to assure their paycheck clears.

First, Jeter is the face of the franchise, and the captain of the team. Second, the press goes to him for quotes before and after every single game. Third, "bottom of the pecking order"? No, he's not. Besides the above, he makes more money than just about everyone except the owners of the team. Fourth, it's baseball, not the military.

[Marley23]

If it's a parallel co-worker (i.e. same job title/description), sure you have the right to get a heads up about it, but have NO right to a say in their fate.
Jeter doesn't have a say in Posada's fate. He's allowed to register an opinion, but he didn't override Girardi and put him back in the lineup.

Oh, BTW, barring a descriminatory dismissal/harassment, the only responsibility a boss has to an employee is to assure their paycheck clears.
Have you heard of unions? More importantly, you're excluding the middle. Even if an employer is not obliged to listen to his employees, it can still make sense for him to do so. For example it may make the employees feel like they have a bigger stake in the business, they may feel more appreciated, and they may have valuable input. Even if you can take a "do your job and shut up" attitude with your employees, it's not necessarily a good idea.

[etv78]

Southern Yankee-Points #1 and #2 are irrelevant. In regard to #3, he's a PLAYER, NOT the manager or GM or owner. And about #4. while the military is an imperfect ananlogy, it's still a JOB, which is what being a proffessional athlete is.

Marley23-I already stipulated that illegal termination shouldn't be allowed, which is where unions come in. And people should be GRATEFUL they have jobs, because there are numerous people who would gladly step into the breach. It'd be nice if a boss got along with their employees, but as long as the treatment the employees receive is legal, just be grateful you have a job!

[Marley23]

Marley23-I already stipulated that illegal termination shouldn't be allowed, which is where unions come in. And people should be GRATEFUL they have jobs, because there are numerous people who would gladly step into the breach. It'd be nice if a boss got along with their employees, but as long as the treatment the employees receive is legal, just be grateful you have a job!
Your argument still does not make sense, and this "you should be grateful to have a job" stuff is nonsense. Jeter has a job because his employer wants him. That was not just given to him, he earned it. I'm glad I have a job, but if my employer screws up, I am allowed to register my opinion. You have continually said Jeter shouldn't do that or can't do that, but you haven't explained why. And you mischaracterized what he did. Jeter didn't disobey any instructions, and he didn't bash anybody. He said Posada was allowed to ask for a day off and didn't need to apologize. He stood behind a teammate of 15 years, which is not the worst thing for your captain to do. My guess is that he didn't fully understand what Posada did behind closed doors, but I could be wrong.

[goldmund]

Jeter doesn't have a say in Posada's fate. He's allowed to register an opinion, but he didn't override Girardi and put him back in the lineup.


Um, Girardi had him in the lineup. Posada took himself out.

[etv78]

Um, Girardi had him in the lineup. Posada took himself out.

EXACTLY! And admittedly, THAT was more insubordinate than what Jeter did (though that's no excuse)

[Southern Yankee]

Southern Yankee-Points #1 and #2 are irrelevant. In regard to #3, he's a PLAYER, NOT the manager or GM or owner. And about #4. while the military is an imperfect ananlogy, it's still a JOB, which is what being a proffessional athlete is.


They are not irrelevant at all. Maybe you've missed the culture of sports the last 20 years but the stars have plenty of say in how the team is run.

[etv78]

Why Jeter shouldn't have done those things? UM, becasue he's NOT the manager, GM or owner! I'm still unclear why you don't understand the concept of chain of command.

[Cyberhwk]

Then the manager, GM or owner needs to fire him or STFU.

[furt]

Why Jeter shouldn't have done those things? UM, becasue he's NOT the manager, GM or owner! I'm still unclear why you don't understand the concept of chain of command."Chain of command" does not equate to "you may not register opinions." I recently went to someone higher than I in my company who makes hiring decisions and, unsolicited, gave my opinion on which of the interns we should keep on, and which we should not. They hadn't asked, but I figured they might want to know what I thought. Was this insubordinate?

[etv78]

furt-OF COURSE that was insubordinate! He didn't ASK for your opinion, and it's NOT in your job description to hire/fire/promote people!

[RickJay]

furt-OF COURSE that was insubordinate! He didn't ASK for your opinion, and it's NOT in your job description to hire/fire/promote people!
You don't understand what insubordination is.

[Hawkeyeop]

Wow jobs would be really boring if the world worked how you think it did. I would certainly not work for any employer who required I keep all my opinions to myself.

On Jeter and Posada, as it turns out, it is really difficult to manage an aging superstar. Everyone thinks their team's stars will be different, but they aren't. Jeter and Posada aren't going to go quietly into the night when they are done. They are incredibly competitive people, and will still think they can do everything they used to, well past the point that they can't.

[etv78]

Hawkeye-I thoroughly DISAGREE with your 1st paragraph, but your 2nd is on target; on my team, we're getting there with Varitek and Ortiz. IF your opinion is warranted, and applicable, (i.e. you have an opinion on something that DIRECTLY effects you) then yes, your opinions should be solicited, otherwise, what you think doesn't amount to anything. Oh, incidentally, interesting work is GREAT, but what really matters is work that allows a good standard of living.

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

Hawkeye-I thoroughly DISAGREE with your 1st paragraph, but your 2nd is on target; on my team, we're getting there with Varitek and Ortiz.

Bolding emphasis is mine.

Nevermind, it allllll makes sense now. No need to read anymore info, this explains this entire thread.

[etv78]

Bolding emphasis is mine.

Nevermind, it allllll makes sense now. No need to read anymore info, this explains this entire thread.

:confused: WTH does THAT mean? If you mean that I'm not singling out the Yankees (as a Sox fan) then yes, you're right, but otherwise I'm confused.

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

Be confused no more: You're a Sawwwx fan so you made a fairly ridiculous thread criticizing the captain of the Yankees for giving his opinion when asked about it and are trying to say it's insubordination.

[Oakminster]

Be confused no more: You're a Sawwwx fan so you made a fairly ridiculous thread criticizing the captain of the Yankees for giving his opinion when asked about it and are trying to say it's insubordination.

I thoroughly DISAGREE with this post. ;) Well, OK, the OP probably is a BoSox fan, but I think he also actually holds very peculiar notions of workplace propriety. His notion of employee relations might work with assembly line type jobs, but most professionals I have known would tell a boss with the OP's attitude to go take a flying fuck at himself.

[davidw]

His notion of employee relations might work with assembly line type jobs, but most professionals I have known would tell a boss with the OP's attitude to go take a flying fuck at himself.

It doesn't work at assembly line jobs either. Maybe just the military?

Other than the OP, does anyone here work at a job where they're not allowed to express their opinion on business matters?

[Marley23]

Um, Girardi had him in the lineup. Posada took himself out.
I meant Jeter didn't put him back in the lineup the next day, but I should have worded that more clearly. The point is that the OP seems to believe Jeter either ignored an order or made someone do something, and that's not the case.

Why Jeter shouldn't have done those things? UM, becasue he's NOT the manager, GM or owner! I'm still unclear why you don't understand the concept of chain of command.
If you want to say Jeter shouldn't have said anything, you can do that. (My response would just by "Why shouldn't he, and who cares?" There is not much to discuss there.) You went further by saying Jeter did something he is not ALLOWED to do. You were wrong about that but you've stood by it. Do you see the problem here? Unless his contract says otherwise - and I am sure it doesn't - Jeter is allowed to register his opinion. His manager, GM, and the team owners don't have to listen, but that doesn't mean he can't say anything. That's how it is in a general way for most of us. Our employers don't have to take our suggestions but they'd be stupid to treat every opinion as a crime, or to imply that things that affect our coworkers don't affect us. The difference between Derek Jeter and the rest of us in that sense is that nobody's asking us those kinds of questions on TV.

You don't understand what insubordination is.
Clearly. etv78, the literal meaning of "insubordination" is refusing to obey an order. In the more figurative sense it means someone who is disobedient or doesn't submit to authority. Absolutely none of this applies to what Jeter said. He didn't refuse anything, he didn't disobey anyone, he didn't buck the chain of command you are talking about. What he did, more or less, is give his opinion where it may not have been asked for. And if I had to guess, I'd say he did it without a full understanding of what Posada did. He may have believed Posada just made an excuse and asked out of the lineup after seeing he was hitting ninth; it's possible Posada said something more like 'then screw you, I'd rather not play for you than hit ninth.'

[Tanbarkie]

Be confused no more: You're a Sawwwx fan so you made a fairly ridiculous thread criticizing the captain of the Yankees for giving his opinion when asked about it and are trying to say it's insubordination.

Please don't tar us Sox fans all with the same brush. Most of us don't have bizarre misconceptions of what constitutes workplace etiquette. :)

Jeter was perfectly within his rights to voice his opinion, and etv78 must be horrifically unpleasant to work for.

[Cheesesteak]

IF your opinion is warranted, and applicable, (i.e. you have an opinion on something that DIRECTLY effects you) then yes, your opinions should be solicited, otherwise, what you think doesn't amount to anything. You do realize that professional baseball players are conspicuously offered up to reporters for Q&A after every game. It is part of the job, to sit in a locker room and take questions from reporters, offering your thoughts and opinions.

Anyway, as far as I read it, Jeter didn't criticize the team, he supported his teammate. His teammate had a beef with management, apologized for his improper actions, and Jeter figuratively patted him on the back and said he didn't do anything wrong.

Compared to the team faltering and high priced veterans failing to produce, this is a tempest in a thimble.

[unwashed brain]

etv78, I find your notions of workplace communications odd and possibly anachronistic. What line of work are you in that you hold to such dogmatic standards for who should talk to who about what?

[storyteller0910]

Other than the OP, does anyone here work at a job where they're not allowed to express their opinion on business matters?

If I expressed a negative opinion of my company's business decisions to a media member who then published my remarks and caused them to become public knowledge?

I'd be fired, yes.

[Telemark]

Bolding emphasis is mine.

Nevermind, it allllll makes sense now. No need to read anymore info, this explains this entire thread.

Hey, I'm a Sox fan and even I can see that the OP is nonsense.

[etv78]

You do realize that professional baseball players are conspicuously offered up to reporters for Q&A after every game. It is part of the job, to sit in a locker room and take questions from reporters, offering your thoughts and opinions.

Anyway, as far as I read it, Jeter didn't criticize the team, he supported his teammate. His teammate had a beef with management, apologized for his improper actions, and Jeter figuratively patted him on the back and said he didn't do anything wrong.

Compared to the team faltering and high priced veterans failing to produce, this is a tempest in a thimble.

By backing Posada, BY DEFINITION he was contradicting the people who sign his paycheck! But I absolutely agree the brouhaha is a function of the team involved.

[Marley23]

By backing Posada, BY DEFINITION he was contradicting the people who sign his paycheck!
And this is a problem because ___________________ [please fill in the blank].

[YogSosoth]

Having had difficulties with my current employer, I couldn't give less of a fuck that someone's "in charge".

If its a good idea, then it's a good idea no matter what level of employment thought of it.

[Munch]

By backing Posada, BY DEFINITION he was contradicting the people who sign his paycheck! But I absolutely agree the brouhaha is a function of the team involved.

As has been told to you repeatedly, "contradicting" is not the same as "insubordinate". They're not even close. Your complete disconnect and lack of experience with actual, real world working environments is preventing you from holding a rational argument here, etv.

[etv78]

And this is a problem because ___________________ [please fill in the blank].

He's NOT the boss of the team!

[Marley23]

He's NOT the boss of the team!
Correct. He is not the boss. That's why is opinion on Posada did not change anything. Now, why is he not allowed to express an opinion about what his manager did?

[etv78]

YogSouth-I agree good ideas don't need to be explicitly solicited, BUT employees (and Jeter, like it or not, IS an employee) shouldn't have a say in their co-worker's future

Munch-I concede I'm using "insubordiante" colloquially, not in its strictest definition. However, I can't think of another word that adequately describes Jeter's actions.

[Munch]

YogSouth-I agree good ideas don't need to be explicitly solicited, BUT employees (and Jeter, like it or not, IS an employee) shouldn't have a say in their co-worker's future
As has been said numerous times, he didn't. His stated opinion didn't change a goddamn thing. So stop repeating something that's flat out wrong.

Munch-I concede I'm using "insubordiante" colloquially, not in its strictest definition. However, I can't think of another word that adequately describes Jeter's actions.How about "acting in his capacity as team Captain"? Or "expressing his opinion just like 95% of this country's workforce is allowed to do"?

[Peremensoe]

...it's possible Posada said something more like 'then screw you, I'd rather not play for you than hit ninth.'

The importance of batting order position is vastly overblown by most people in and around baseball. The difference between being in the lineup and not in the lineup, that's the one to worry about.

[Marley23]

The importance of batting order position is vastly overblown by most people in and around baseball. The difference between being in the lineup and not in the lineup, that's the one to worry about.
True. And anyway there's no particular reason for Posada to be in the lineup at this point. He's the DH and he's hitting .165.

[notfrommensa]

True. And anyway there's no particular reason for Posada to be in the lineup at this point. He's the DH and he's hitting .165.

correct. National League pitchers routinely do as well. And they do not take up an additional spot on the roster.

[furt]

furt-OF COURSE that was insubordinate! He didn't ASK for your opinion, and it's NOT in your job description to hire/fire/promote people!Hmmm. Good thing our Vice-President does not define insubordination the bizarre way you do. She thanked me for my input, even though they never asked for it. It now appears they are about to take my advice.

Most employees worth a damn won't want to work in a place run along the lines you suggest, and if they did they'd be enormously demotivated. Demotivated workers produce less. Competent managers know how to deal with employees giving pushback. It's one of the foundational skills in any kind of leadership.

You are aware that Michael Scott is an example of a bad boss, right?

[D_Odds]

Here's what Jeter said:
"My reaction was that I didn't think it was that big a deal," Jeter said about the Posada incident. "If you need a day, you need a day.

"It's over. It's done," Jeter said. "It's not the first time a player asked out of a lineup. Joe says if you feel like you need a day, let him know. It's understandable.

"I need a day right now," he joked.He did admit that he didn't have all the facts at this time.

Apparently, management was not happy and held a conference call with Jeter. It appears, at least, that they've already extinguished this particular fire: Jeter said he had a conference call with Hal Steinbrenner, Randy Levine, and Brian Cashman today — the call wasn't his idea — and told reporters, "We are all on the same page."

While the notion that this is insubordination is absurd (and that is being kind), shoddy reporting (and 99% of sports reporting is shoddy, and that's excluding sports talk shows) could give the appearance that Jeter was criticizing management. Given that his every word gets scrutinized for meaning (one of the reasons he says so little), he should be careful what he says to the media.

[etv78]

[QUOTE=D_Odds;13811696]Here's what Jeter said:
He did admit that he didn't have all the facts at this time.
Apparently, management was not happy and held a conference call with Jeter.

QUOTE]

Which is why he should have KEPT HIS MOUTH SHUT! :rolleyes: He's DAMN LUCKY he wasn't thrown out on his ass! In the real world, this is what would/should happen!

[Peremensoe]

And anyway there's no particular reason for Posada to be in the lineup at this point.

And yet Girardi was still writing him in, as a gesture of faith and support and appreciation for his history with the team. We might even see it as an effort to allow Posada to end his career on a more graceful note--electing to retire while still technically a regular player (in the last year of his contract). This gesture has an on-field cost for the team.

The Yankees could cut Posada from the roster, eat the salary, and call up Jesus Montero (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=monter001jes), for example.

[Idle Thoughts]

Etv mad! Etv smash!!

[Munch]

In the real world, this is what would/should happen!No, in the real world what would happen is management - if they thought it was inappropriate - would have called him into the office or had him on a conference call to tell him that wasn't appropriate. Which is exactly what happened.

Again - you have no actual experience with how this works in the real world. The people in this thread are confirming that with actual, real world examples that completely refute what you're suggesting.

[D_Odds]

No, in the real world what would happen is management - if they thought it was inappropriate - would have called him into the office or had him on a conference call to tell him that wasn't appropriate. Which is exactly what happened.

Again - you have no actual experience with how this works in the real world. The people in this thread are confirming that with actual, real world examples that completely refute what you're suggesting.He should just be happy the Yankees got swept by the BoSox at Yankee Stadium this weekend. Instead, in true AM-talk radio rabid fan style*, etv78 is attempting to manufacture outrage where there is none. If anyone was insubordinate it was Posada, and nothing is happening to him either. Well, nothing other than batting 9th and sitting more often, but I could hit .165 in the bigs.

Or maybe etv78 works for Darth Vader, where any slight, imagined or otherwise, is met with a force choke and instant promotions for everyone below.

*These are the fans that are akin to the birthers in politics or the moon landing hoax conspiracy theorists. Every team has them, but add a rivalry in there and they really come out, spittle flying everywhere.

[etv78]

And yet Girardi was still writing him in, as a gesture of faith and support and appreciation for his history with the team. We might even see it as an effort to allow Posada to end his career on a more graceful note--electing to retire while still technically a regular player (in the last year of his contract). This gesture has an on-field cost for the team.

The Yankees could cut Posada from the roster, eat the salary, and call up Jesus Montero (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=monter001jes), for example.

Which shows Girardi cares more about his players liking him than, you know, WINNING games! If George were alive, he wouldn't tolerate this.

[Cheesesteak]

He's DAMN LUCKY he wasn't thrown out on his ass! In the real world, this is what would/should happen!You really think a club is going to get out of tens of millions of dollars of guaranteed contract money and release one of the most popular players in the history of the franchise because he said he didn't think something was a big deal?

[Munch]

Which shows Girardi cares more about his players liking him than, you know, WINNING games! If George were alive, he wouldn't tolerate this.
Managers have very little input in calling players up, especially before their clock starts. What you're advocating is EXACTLY what you're bitching about Jeter doing (i.e. sharing an actual opinion with management).

[Tanbarkie]

Which shows Girardi cares more about his players liking him than, you know, WINNING games! If George were alive, he wouldn't tolerate this.

My God. You must really hate Terry Francona.

[Peremensoe]

Managers have very little input in calling players up, especially before their clock starts.

Right. If it wasn't clear, when I said "the Yankees" and even "Girardi" above, I really meant the whole of Yankees management. But I expect Junior and Cashman are more concerned with player and fan perceptions right now than with the matter of starting the clock on Montero, which will presumably happen in September if not sooner.

[etv78]

He should just be happy the Yankees got swept by the BoSox at Yankee Stadium this weekend. Instead, in true AM-talk radio rabid fan style*, etv78 is attempting to manufacture outrage where there is none. If anyone was insubordinate it was Posada, and nothing is happening to him either. Well, nothing other than batting 9th and sitting more often, but I could hit .165 in the bigs.

Or maybe etv78 works for Darth Vader, where any slight, imagined or otherwise, is met with a force choke and instant promotions for everyone below.

]

1st-I AGREE what Posada did is 10X worse! BTW, D_Odds, {Darth Vader voice} "I am your father."

[Munch]

1st-I AGREE what Posada did is 10X worse!
I'm confused. You think it's zero bad? 10 * 0 = 0.

[gonzomax]

The manager should send him down to the minors to work on his hitting. He is 100 points under his average and all other stats are down. He is hurting the team.
Ordonez is having a year like that . The Tigers put him on the 15 day DL . He was hurting the team. When he "recovers" .I am sure he will work his problems out in the minors.

[etv78]

I'm confused. You think it's zero bad? 10 * 0 = 0.

I should've written 10x.

[Munch]

I should've written 10x.
Jesus Christ...

What I should have written was: "Jeter did nothing wrong. 10 times nothing is nothing."

And then apparently I should have typed out a fucking Glossary or something.

[Marley23]

He's DAMN LUCKY he wasn't thrown out on his ass! In the real world, this is what would/should happen!
You're wrong. It is not what would happen at most workplaces, and I don't know why you think it should. Maybe it would happen in the military, and it might happen at a business run by a tyrannical asshole. It's hard to envision it happening at a successful business.

And yet Girardi was still writing him in, as a gesture of faith and support and appreciation for his history with the team. We might even see it as an effort to allow Posada to end his career on a more graceful note--electing to retire while still technically a regular player (in the last year of his contract). This gesture has an on-field cost for the team.
Right. I don't know how the news was broken to Posada and it's possible that could have been handled better. It's also understandable that Posada didn't like being dropped in the lineup, but realistically, he's been lousy and they'd have a stronger lineup without him even as as DH.

The Yankees could cut Posada from the roster, eat the salary, and call up Jesus Montero (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=monter001jes), for example.
I saw one report that the Yankees were so angry at Posada - who reportedly cursed out Cashman and said he quit - that they contacted the MLB about voiding his contract. Cooler heads have prevailed as far as that goes. Perhaps not so much about the Jeter thing. ;)

[Cheesesteak]

I saw one report that the Yankees were so angry at Posada - who reportedly cursed out Cashman and said he quit - that they contacted the MLB about voiding his contract. Cooler heads have prevailed as far as that goes. Perhaps not so much about the Jeter thing. ;)When you're an aging veteran, at the extreme tail end of your career, batting .165 and making $13mil... don't go cursing your GM and saying you quit. He may just take you up on the offer.

[etv78]

Marley23-Successful businessmen don't tolerate their employees contradicting them!

[D_Odds]

You're wrong. It is not what would happen at most workplaces, and I don't know why you think it should. Maybe it would happen in the military, and it might happen at a business run by a tyrannical asshole. It's hard to envision it happening at a successful business.For what Jeter did, it wouldn't happen in most non-combat military situations. But then, reporters don't go putting microphones in front of every grunts mouth and then spend 10 column inches analyzing 2 sentences.

If you were an officer, you would get a conversation from your superiors. If you did what Posada did, you might get non-judicial punishment. Penalties increase in combat zones. Previous history is taken into account. If you are a serial asshole, like Manny Ramirez, management is likely not to look as kindly on you as it would 2 players with ~15 years experience each and nearly no problems in all that time.

And, because I am a Yankee fan and I'm watching the game, Posada just singled. Hopefully they can win one. It's been a week.

ETA
etv78, yes they do (especially depending on the employee) and Jeter didn't really contradict anyone. He just spoke without all the facts.

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

Hey, I'm a Sox fan and even I can see that the OP is nonsense.

Please don't tar us Sox fans all with the same brush. Most of us don't have bizarre misconceptions of what constitutes workplace etiquette. :)

Jeter was perfectly within his rights to voice his opinion, and etv78 must be horrifically unpleasant to work for.

My sincere apologies to our fine Sawx fans who have the good sense to say "BUH?" to the OP. Sometimes the Pinstripe Fever makes me lash out with my largest and widest paintbrush ;)

[Marley23]

When you're an aging veteran, at the extreme tail end of your career, batting .165 and making $13mil... don't go cursing your GM and saying you quit. He may just take you up on the offer.
There are plenty of GMs who only wish their over-the-hill stars would say something like that. But it sounds like everybody worked it out. Posada is in the lineup and hitting seventh tonight - he might be eighth if Swisher didn't have the day off.

[Marley23]

For what Jeter did, it wouldn't happen in most non-combat military situations. But then, reporters don't go putting microphones in front of every grunts mouth and then spend 10 column inches analyzing 2 sentences.

If you were an officer, you would get a conversation from your superiors. If you did what Posada did, you might get non-judicial punishment. Penalties increase in combat zones. Previous history is taken into account. If you are a serial asshole, like Manny Ramirez, management is likely not to look as kindly on you as it would 2 players with ~15 years experience each and nearly no problems in all that time.
It's hard to make an exact comparison since in most cases, the Jeter equivalent person wouldn't complain in public and management wouldn't know he'd said anything.

Marley23-Successful businessmen don't tolerate their employees contradicting them!
He didn't contradict anyone, and I have to question your experience with successful businessmen at this point. Can you name some examples?

[etv78]

odds and Marley-You seem to believe that BOSSES put up with being undercut. I can't fathom how this lead to any credibility with the rest of their workforce.

[D_Odds]

Get it through your fucking skull - Jeter did not undercut anyone. Not Girardi, not Cashman, not Levine, not Steinbrenner. The assertion that he did is patently stupid.

If someone is truly undercutting their boss, then they will be excised. Why it took so long to get rid of Ramirez, who was undercutting the entire Red Sox franchise is mind-boggling. All Jeter did was misspoke. After ~15 years of exemplary service and 99.9% positive relations both publicly and privately, their is no sane boss on the planet who would get rid of such an employee for one minor misstatement.

If you're going to continue with the stupidity that Jeter was insubordinate, then I'm going to start treating you like I treat birthers, 9/11 truthers, and moon landing hoax believers.

[Marley23]

odds and Marley-You seem to believe that BOSSES put up with being undercut. I can't fathom how this lead to any credibility with the rest of their workforce.
A good boss doesn't rely on being a tyrannical asshole, and a good boss doesn't need to leave his employees so terrified they won't express any differing opinions. That makes for a crappy business culture and encourages employees to go somewhere else where they won't be treated like dirt. It's true that if you storm into your boss' office and call him an asshole, you will probably be out of a job in about 3 seconds. But if you did what Jeter did, you probably wouldn't be out of a job even if it did get back to your boss (which, in a real life situation, it probably would not). He said his teammate is a good guy and is allowed to take a game off if he needs it. That's not ungrateful, disloyal, or insubordinate, and your contention that it's none of his business is false.

If someone is truly undercutting their boss, then they will be excised. Why it took so long to get rid of Ramirez, who was undercutting the entire Red Sox franchise is mind-boggling.
Because he was a good player and because they wanted to try to get value if they got rid of him- which is difficult when you're talking about trading an aging player with a very high salary who doesn't play good defense and is a headcase. ;)

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

A good boss doesn't rely on being a tyrannical asshole, and a good boss doesn't need to leave his employees so terrified they won't express any differing opinions.

Coming from a Yankee fan, this is a hilariously ironic comment.

[Marley23]

Coming from a Yankee fan, this is a hilariously ironic comment.
I assure you it wasn't lost on me. ;) George Steinbrenner had to pay people more to get them to put up with that crap, and even then, it didn't always work.

[D_Odds]

There is still the G. Steinbrenner NY Yankee surcharge during all negotiations, even though the two sons are not as bad.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

That's what I don't get--Yankee fans agreeing that he was a monster, a cruel and tyrannical boss who ruled by temper tantrum and whim, punctuated by gigantically misproportionate excess contract that caused him to get beaten by agents many and many a time, and you're outraged that he isn't in the Hall of Fame.

I'm not sure that surcharge that the players get from the Yankees is so much monster-related as it is "You over-pay everyone, so if you don't over-pay me, then you're under-paying me in a way."

[Ace309]

Good managers don't make business decisions based on ego.

Assume for the moment that in baseball, a good business decision is one that will increase revenue or stop a decrease from happening, and further that revenue in baseball is a function of team performance and goodwill.

Even if Jeter's comments have a net negative effect on performance, benching Jeter will lead to a loss of his production. I'm not sure who the Yanks have in reserve to play shortstop, but Jeter is a proven producer. Even if his numbers are down now, is it as likely that, eg, Nunez's production will outperform Jeter's over the course of the benching?

Even if Nunez does outperform Jeter, people go to the ballpark to see Jeter. Knowing Jeter will be benched will probably have a net negative effect on ticket sales.

I'm not sure what benefit punishing Jeter would have for the Yankees from such a business perspective, so I can't agree that Jeter should be punished for making public comments critical of his manager.

If Jeter shouldn't be punished, then isn't that similar to saying that he does, indeed, have a right to make such comments?

[Southern Yankee]

That's what I don't get--Yankee fans agreeing that he was a monster, a cruel and tyrannical boss who ruled by temper tantrum and whim, punctuated by gigantically misproportionate excess contract that caused him to get beaten by agents many and many a time, and you're outraged that he isn't in the Hall of Fame.

Who's "outraged" that he's not in the HOF? I know a lot of Yankee fans and I've never heard anyone express any concern at all that he's not there. Personally, I think he will eventually be put in, but I don't really get excited one way or another by any non-player candidates.

[Yookeroo]

I think etv78 needs to get a job and some life experience.

[etv78]

I think etv78 needs to get a job and some life experience.

So a lack of life experience deprives me of the right to an opinion? OK :rolleyes:

[Colibri]

So a lack of life experience deprives me of the right to an opinion? OK :rolleyes:

You can have any opinion you want. But you won't have an opinion that anyone else will take very seriously.

[Oakminster]

So a lack of life experience deprives me of the right to an opinion? OK :rolleyes:

No. It prevents you from having an informed opinion on certain issues. Like this one, for instance. Real world work environments just don't usually work the way you seem to think they should.

[etv78]

I admit, I never expected my opinion to be popular. But I appreciate you saying it's Ok I have one.

[Oakminster]

It isn't a popularity contest. Your opinion on this matter is simply not reasonable. Many people, with years of actual relevant experience, have attempted to explain this to you.

It appears that what we have here is failure to communicate.

[Colibri]

I admit, I never expected my opinion to be popular. But I appreciate you saying it's Ok I have one.

It's OK for you to have one. But it's probably better for everyone if you don't share it with us.;)

[D_Odds]

So a lack of life experience deprives me of the right to an opinion? OK :rolleyes:When my son was still in the single digit ages, he tried to get around an erroneous statement with the "opinion" argument. I explained to him that you can't, for instance, say that broccoli tastes like chocolate and get around the fact that it doesn't just by saying well, that's my opinion.

Hopefully you too will take this lesson to heart.

[Yookeroo]

So a lack of life experience deprives me of the right to an opinion? OK :rolleyes:

I didn't say that. But you do seem pretty ignorant of the way the real world works. Some experience would remedy that.