States/provinces without police forces

[installLSC]

While going through some old threads, I read in GQ that only three of Canada's ten provinces have their own police forces. The rest contract out policing duties to the RCMP. I've got a number of questions:
--Why? Certainly provinces like Alberta and BC can afford their own forces rather than leaving it up to a force headquarted across the country. Did these provinces ever have their own forces?
--I'm pretty sure this has never happened with an American state. Is that for constitutional issues or just practicality?
--Do German/Australian/etc. states have their own police forces?

[constanze]

--Do German/Australian/etc. states have their own police forces?

In Germany, each state has his own police. There is no further sub-division; all that stuff about having a sheriff instead of or together with police, or the PD of one town being known as incompetent always leave me puzzled. The head of the police is the minister of interior for each state. Police officers are always centrally educated and trained, so there are no backwoods cops that have less training than the city cops (they might have less practise in some areas, though). An overview is here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Germany), notice the ensigns with the coat of arms for each state. Until some years ago, each state also had different uniform colours, which was of course stupid because a North German on visit in the South got confused as to how a cop looked like, so they finally got their act together and decided on dark blue (although, I think that was not a good colour choice).

There is a federal police, Bundeskriminalpolizei, to aid in serious crimes and crimes across states. They cooperate with the Landeskriminalamt (state crime office). Above that, there's INTERPOL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol) of course and Europol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europol). (European police).

Trivia: there are TV series about cops in certain cities:
Rosenheim Cops (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenheim_Cops)

Der Bulle von Tölz (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Bulle_von_T%C3%B6lz) (about one detective)

Hafenpolizei (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafenpolizei) (Hamburg)
Großstadtrevier (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fstadtrevier)

but also Eurocops (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocops), a series about detectives in different European countries, produced and broadcast in different countries!

[friedo]

INTERPOL is not a police organization and has no criminal jurisdiction anywhere. They are a clearinghouse for information on fugitives and criminal transactions.

[Northern Piper]

Some of the other provinces used to have provincial police forces, and there was a Dominion Police force, also run by the feds. The Mounties were originally only in the west.

There were issues about professionalism and corruption in some of the provincial police forces, plus the feds simply had more resources for training purposes. The NWMP => RNWMP => RCMP had a better reputation, plus the costs of running separate polices forces, all acted towards the smaller provinces abolishing their police forces and contracting into the services provided by the RCMP. Some members of the provincial police forces (e.g. the Saskatchewan Police) and the Dominion Police were absorbed into the RCMP. I'm going by memory, but I think the consolidation started in the 1920s and was hastened by the Great Depression, which hit the western provinces particularly hard.

[psychonaut]

In Germany, each state has his own police. There is no further sub-divisionSure there is. There are also municipal police forces, known variously as Stadtpolizei, Ordnungsamt, or Ordnungsdienst. They tend to be responsible for policing misdemeanors and civil infractions, for more serious crimes they generally have to involve the state cops.

[Acsenray]

Until some years ago, each state also had different uniform colours, which was of course stupid because a North German on visit in the South got confused as to how a cop looked like, so they finally got their act together and decided on dark blue (although, I think that was not a good colour choice).

I don't understand why the lack of uniformity is "stupid." In the United States, every law enforcement operation has a different uniform and people don't have problems recognizing a cop in uniform.

[robert_columbia]

I don't understand why the lack of uniformity is "stupid." In the United States, every law enforcement operation has a different uniform and people don't have problems recognizing a cop in uniform.

I'll say. In the Washington, DC area, there is a rainbow of law enforcement uniforms. Black, brown, blue, tan. In Fairfax County, the "Fairfax County Police" wear tan shirts, but the "Fairfax County Sheriff's Department" deputies wear brown. The City of Fairfax police wear blue. Falls Church has badass looking black uniforms. DC itself has the Metropolitan Police, US Park Police, and a few other agencies, all in one city.

[Martin Hyde]

Yeah, D.C. is infamous for having tons of police forces (I think I counted over 20 once, although some have been folded up in recent years--for example I don't believe the Library of Congress has its own legitimately separate police force any longer :( ); and seeing police all over the country I've never had trouble identifying them.

In America I would say dark blue is the default color, but dark green, tan, and black uniforms aren't uncommon either.

Even bicycle police who typically are dressed in athletic ware I find fairly easy to identify, mostly because bicycle police have the words POLICE in huge letters on their clothes, a badge, and a .45 on their hip in plain sight.

[Hari Seldon]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that in Canada, criminal law is strictly federal. So a national police force makes sense. The one dealing I ever had with the RCMP left me convinced that they (well he) was abominably stupid.

[Cunctator]

Do German/Australian/etc. states have their own police forces?Each of the six Australian states has its own police force, as does the Northern Territory. The Australian Federal Police force serves the ACT and other territories (Norfolk Island, Christmas Island etc), as well as enforcing Commonwealth law.

[D18]

Just read in the Georgia Straight today that the Feds are negotiating the contract currently with the relevant provinces. Apparently the Feds subsidize the provincial policing - something like 70% paid by the Feds and 30% paid by the province. Is that the reason provinces use the RCMP? To get the subsidy?

[Shagnasty]

--I'm pretty sure this has never happened with an American state. Is that for constitutional issues or just practicality?

I am not an absolute expert but I don't think that is allowed in the U.S. at least on a large scale. Most criminal matters and most police matters overall are based on state law. Each state has to have their own police force one way or another to enforce its own laws. The federal government helps states sometimes in solving certain state crimes but it is still under state police jurisdiction. Federal police like the FBI generally only get involved in certain types of crimes that involve multiple states like kidnapping or harm to a federal employee or federal property. They are two different systems . You charged in both for certain crimes but they are still very separate. The closest you see to that in the U.S. are the Sherriff's Department and State Troopers that have jurisdiction anywhere in the state including unincorporated areas without their own police department. I am not sure if federal law enforcement agents can make a true police arrest for a purely state crime other than a citizen's arrest that anyone can do.

[Lord Feldon]

I am not sure if federal law enforcement agents can make a true police arrest for a purely state crime other than a citizen's arrest that anyone can do.

It's the state's choice. (http://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/rpt/2010-R-0042.htm) Some give them that authority, and some don't. It looks like most give them some authority.

[Boyo Jim]

This is Wiki's list o (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_agencies_in_the_District_of_Columbia)f police agencies within the District of Columbia. The only one that might not have uniformed cops on duty in the District, AFAICT, is the Federal Bureau of Prisons. DC doesn't have a Federal Prison.

There might even be others not listed. I see that the Army's MPs and CID are both listed. Similarly the Navy has NCIS, but the "Shore Patrol" isn't. Maybe Navy people can tell me whether the SP is an organization in itself, or are people in the SP just assigned out of some pool of available Navy personnel as needed?

1. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department
2. United States Marshals
3. District of Columbia Department of Corrections
4. District of Columbia Housing Authority Office of Public Safety
5. Metro Transit Police Department
6. Washington National Cathedral Police (yes, a church with its own police force)
7. District of Columbia Protective Services Police Department
8. United States Capitol Police
9. United States Secret Service Uniformed Division
10. Supreme Court Police
11. United States Park Police
12. Smithsonian Police
13. United States State Department Diplomatic Security Service
14. United States Naval Criminal Investigative Service
15. United States Army Criminal Investigative Command
16. United States Air Force Office of Special Investigations
17. United States Coast Guard Investigative Service
18. United States Mint Police
19. Bureau of Engraving and Printing
20. United States Postal Inspection Service (Federal Postal Inspectors)
21. Federal Bureau of Investigation Police
22. Government Printing Office Uniformed Police Branch
23. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
24. Federal Bureau of Prisons
25. Drug Enforcement Administration
26. United States Army Military Police
27. American University Department of Public Safety
28. Catholic University Department of Public Safety
29. Gallaudet University Department of Public Safety
30. George Washington University Police Department
31. Georgetown University Department of Public Safety
32. Howard University Campus Police
33. University of the District of Columbia Police Department

[Northern Piper]

Here's more on the abolition of the Saskatchewan Provincial Police (http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/saskatchewan_provincial_police.html) and the trend away from provincial police forces during the Depression, from the Encyclopedia of Saskatchewan:

The lifespan of the force, however, was short. In 1928 the government of Saskatchewan replaced the SPP with the RCMP, with some SPP members joining (or rejoining) the Mounted Police, usually keeping the same rank. The demise of the SPP was not incompetence but cost. The Saskatchewan government, even before the arrival of the GREAT DEPRESSION, was increasingly worried about expenditures, and in the case of policing the math was simple: having its own police force cost $500,000 a year; while the RCMP could do the same job for $200,000. In following this path the Saskatchewan government began a trend that in 1932 would see several other provinces accept the RCMP as their provincial police force out of financial necessity. Less of a concern in 1928 was the apparent loss of provincial autonomy to a police force with its headquarters in Ottawa instead of Regina. Ottawa and Regina issued assurances to the public at the time that the relationship between the senior Mountie in Saskatchewan and the provincial government, specifically the Attorney-General, would be exactly the same as that between Commissioner Mahoney and his boss in Regina.

[Boyo Jim]

We sure are nuts about police forces here in the US. Even here in Madison (the state capital) there are 5 that I know of -- the city police, the State Capital police, Dane County Sheriff, State Troopers, and University of Wisconsin police.

(Not counting any Federal cops that might be hanging out on the local Federal properties).

[Zsofia]

So, this whole thing with the German cops all going dark blue... is that maybe because of the prevalence of American cop dramas, considering that dark blue is the default American cop uniform color? If so, that's very funny.

[psychonaut]

So, this whole thing with the German cops all going dark blue... is that maybe because of the prevalence of American cop dramas, considering that dark blue is the default American cop uniform color? If so, that's very funny.No, it's because every other police force in the European Union uses blue uniforms. Germany was the odd man out.

[constanze]

Sure there is. There are also municipal police forces, known variously as Stadtpolizei, Ordnungsamt, or Ordnungsdienst. They tend to be responsible for policing misdemeanors and civil infractions, for more serious crimes they generally have to involve the state cops.

I've never encountered Stadtpolizei, and I don't consider the guys from the Ordnungsamt who watch over littering and noise levels proper cops. They also don't have special uniforms usually.

[constanze]

So, this whole thing with the German cops all going dark blue... is that maybe because of the prevalence of American cop dramas, considering that dark blue is the default American cop uniform color? If so, that's very funny.

*shudder* while US TV series are popular with the general population, most people would not want any resemblance to US law enforcement over here, thank you very much no. We prefer professional trained cops not playing the law-and-order type, but "your friend and helper" type.

In the 50s and 60s, German cops were the law-and-order type, beating people at demonstrations, but after a highly publicized death and general outrage that citizens in a democracy have the right to demonstrate, and not only long-haired hippies are doing this, so decent behaviour by the police should be shown, and this lead to a change in how police perceived itself, what tactics were taught and so on.

[psychonaut]

I've never encountered Stadtpolizei, and I don't consider the guys from the Ordnungsamt who watch over littering and noise levels proper cops. They also don't have special uniforms usually.Nonetheless, they are classed by the government as law enforcement, and in many municipalities are armed, just like the state police.

[Acsenray]

The State of Ohio has no "state police." It has a State Highway Patrol, but its scope is severely limited and officials make a point to stress that the highway patrol "is not a state police force." The bulk of criminal investigation and other police functions are left to county sheriffs' departments and city police departments.

I'm still interested in getting a response to this:

Until some years ago, each state also had different uniform colours, which was of course stupid because a North German on visit in the South got confused as to how a cop looked like, so they finally got their act together and decided on dark blue (although, I think that was not a good colour choice).

I don't understand why the lack of uniformity is "stupid." In the United States, every law enforcement operation has a different uniform and people don't have problems recognizing a cop in uniform.

[Sunspace]

This is Wiki's list o (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_agencies_in_the_District_of_Columbia)f police agencies within the District of Columbia...So if I'm standing on the Mall in front of the Washington Monument (the giant obelisk), and I call 911 and ask for the police, who do I get?

[Boyo Jim]

So if I'm standing on the Mall in front of the Washington Monument (the giant obelisk), and I call 911 and ask for the police, who do I get?

Good question. You got me, and I used to work at several of the museums on the Mall. I guess the operator would ask you for a little detail about where you are, and send the right cops. I do know that Park Police cops sometimes patrolled the Mall, and I've also seen Secret Service uniformed cops out by the Washington Monument when the presidential helicopter was coming or going. I was even told by one of them to bring down my kite, which might be some minor hazard to the chopper -- or maybe annoyance to the pilot.

[Acsenray]

So if I'm standing on the Mall in front of the Washington Monument (the giant obelisk), and I call 911 and ask for the police, who do I get?

Probably the Park Service Police. But maybe the Metropolitan Police. And there's a slim chance you'll get the Capitol Police.

[Acsenray]

Every few months I see a cruiser with a police department name on it that I hadn't heard of before. I was surprised to see a car marked "FBI Police." That one seemed a bit odd. I just saw a new one this past weekend, but I can't remember the name now.

[Who_me?]

So if I'm standing on the Mall in front of the Washington Monument (the giant obelisk), and I call 911 and ask for the police, who do I get?

Probably the Park Service Police. But maybe the Metropolitan Police. And there's a slim chance you'll get the Capitol Police.

It'll also depend on what the emergency is. If you call up saying there's a shooter on the mall, you'll get everyone they can get there.

[SirRay]

Adding even more to the Washington, DC police list, I didn't see either Amtrak nor CSX Railroad listed, even though both have decent-sized police forces. Most Class I railroads have police forces to handle trespassing, theft, vandalism, and accidents.