What features distinguish different ethnicities?

[spunkymuzicnote]

I don't think I'm being racist to say that I have trouble telling people apart who are not the same race as me. Maybe it's because I grew up in an incredibly white community. Now I am going to be working at a summer camp for refugee children from places like Burma and Pakistan and I want to be able to tell the kids apart. I know that in other cultures different features than hair and eyes are used to distinguish people. What should I be looking for so I can really get to know these kids and make them feel welcome?

[Der Trihs]

I don't think I'm being racist to say that I have trouble telling people apart who are not the same race as me. Maybe it's because I grew up in an incredibly white community. Probably. It's my understanding that the area of the brain that recognizes faces distinguishes between them by learning to ignore the parts that don't vary, while noting the parts that do. Since these are different for different ethnic groups, if you haven't seen much of them they really do "look all alike" because your brain is ignoring the parts of their faces that vary and steadfastly paying attention to the parts that look alike.

With enough exposure though the facial recognition system learns to adapt.

[chowching]

don't worry too much. you'll learn from experience. i gather you'll be dealing with different people. you'll be more and more familiar with them as time goes. sooner you'll be able to distinguish people. through the way the talk or the manner they handle themselves. different ethnicity also seem to give different impressions upon the person observing.

[Dr. Drake]

Trick #1: Stop looking for physical features. Ethnicity is culture, so you'll be better served in paying attention to how people dress, talk, carry themselves, etc., especially if they're groups from the same part of the world.

And "Burmese" is both an ethnic group, not all of whom live in Burma, and a nationality, not all of whom are ethnically Burmese. List_of_ethnic_groups_in_Burma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_Burma). "Ethnicity" isn't just a polite word for race, it's a different and much more useful concept. "Race" is a broad-brush category that lumps millions of people together who have little in common. "Ethnicity" refers to a group with (usually) a common language, culture, religion, and values. "Nationality" refers to who's issuing their passport.

That's not to say that ethnic groups don't have distinguishing physical features, of course. It's just that after a while working with Group X, you learn their "look," and that includes both physical and cultural features.

[samjones]

Trick #1: Stop looking for physical features. Ethnicity is culture, so you'll be better served in paying attention to how people dress, talk, carry themselves, etc., especially if they're groups from the same part of the world.


Guess you think you're entitled to define the words that we use? Okay - I'll have a grand time telling about 80% of the people I know that they are not ethnically whatever it is they claim to be because they dress, talk and "carry themselves?" like Americans.

Got it!

Burmese people are essentially "Burmans". There are certainly other ethnicities in Burma but they would represent small and politically unempowered minorities who probably consider themselves ethnically closer to one of Burma's neighbors, e.g. Thailand, India, China

[Dr. Drake]

Guess you think you're entitled to define the words that we use? Okay - I'll have a grand time telling about 80% of the people I know that they are not ethnically whatever it is they claim to be because they dress, talk and "carry themselves?" like Americans.

Got it!

Burmese people are essentially "Burmans". There are certainly other ethnicities in Burma but they would represent small and politically unempowered minorities who probably consider themselves ethnically closer to one of Burma's neighbors, e.g. Thailand, India, ChinaI'm just following conventional definitions. And yes, I'd say that a person who dresses, talks, and carries themselves like an American is ethnically American. Ethnicity isn't a zero-sum game, and it isn't genetic. You can be American and something else, like a heritage ethnicity. My best friend growing up was ethnically American, but his parents were ethnically Han Chinese. That's the simple version. The more complicated version is that the parents were both American and Chinese, but Chinese was primary; their kids were both American and Chinese, but American was primary. At work and school, American identity was dominant. At home, Chinese was.

I'm glad you're so well-informed about Burma. The cite I provided suggested the largest ethnicity is only just over two-thirds of the population, but I'm sure you know better.

[anson2995]

Guess you think you're entitled to define the words that we use?

You're the one using a definition that is different from what's commonly accepted. Ethnicity is a construct of social science which describes a person's heritage, and general connotes shared language, customs, etc. Race is sometimes a component of that, but usually in a tangential way.

Dr Drake is right on point, by saying that physical characteristics aren't likely to help him tell which kids are from Burma and which are from Pakistan.

Burmese people are essentially "Burmans". There are certainly other ethnicities in Burma but they would represent small and politically unempowered minorities who probably consider themselves ethnically closer to one of Burma's neighbors, e.g. Thailand, India, China.

Just for the record, they haven't called it Burma for more than 30 years. The majority in Myanamr refer to themselves a "Bamar," and about 35 percent of the people who live there are members of other ethnic groups. The Shan are about 10-12 percent of the population, roughly the same as the percentage of African-American in the US.

[samjones]

I'm glad you're so well-informed about Burma. The cite I provided suggested the largest ethnicity is only just over two-thirds of the population, but I'm sure you know better.

Yeah - but from an ethnicity perspective almost everybody in Burma would consider themselves to be either Burmese or the ethnicity of the neighboring country. It's a major cross-roads of Asia, so you're likely to see people from all over.

I see no point to denying that people in Burma are Burmans.

The people who live there who are ethnically Chinese consider themselves to be ethnically Chinese just like they are considered to be by the Burmans.... just like the ethnically Chinese people here consider themselves to be ethnically Chinese even if they eat with a fork and talk with an American accent.

There's more to ethnicity than how you dress and how you talk....

[samjones]

Dr Drake is right on point, by saying that physical characteristics aren't likely to help him tell which kids are from Burma and which are from Pakistan.


I could tell in 2 seconds based on the fact that Pakistanis don't look like Bumese

Just for the record, they haven't called it Burma for more than 30 years. The majority in Myanamr refer to themselves a "Bamar," and about 35 percent of the people who live there are members of other ethnic groups. The Shan are about 10-12 percent of the population, roughly the same as the percentage of African-American in the US.

The Shan are also in China, Laos and Thailand, iinm.

Myanmar v. Burma is really only transliteration adn so is "Bamar" v. "Burman". It doesn't really matter. They write with a different alphabet and you probably won't say it right no matter how they write it.

Try "M'yanma" - rhymes roughly with "grandma"... That might help.

I never heard a Burmese here ever call it Mee-an-mar. They say Burma and they say they're Burmese. I think the way that they figure it is tha "Myanmar" is the name assigned to it by the illegitimate military junta that has destroyed the country over the last 20 years.... not to be overly political about it. I bet that if Aung San Suu Kyi is given her rightful seat as head of government and she calls it "Myanmar" then maybe they'll start calling it Myanmar too.

[John Mace]

If Burmese and Pakistanis are the two groups you need to distinguish between, then you'll learn to do that in about 2 days. They don't look much like each other.

Other than that, I think the beast advice is to not worry about it too much, as has already been said. Pay attention to everything about the person, and not just facial features unless the ethnicities are very dissimilar (like Burmese and Pakistanis).

[spunkymuzicnote]

Hello? Anyone want to help me with my problem? Anyone?

[Implicit]

What should I be looking for so I can really get to know these kids and make them feel welcome?
Asking them their name and where they are from would be the first step in getting to know them and making them feel welcome. Why do you think a method of visually sorting kids into different ethnic groups will help you?

[Siam Sam]

The Shan are also in China, Laos and Thailand, iinm.

Yes, in northern Thailand. In fact, Mae Hong Son, the northwesternmost province in Thailand and bordering Burma, is majority Shan. The Thai term for them is Thai Yai, which literally means "Big Thais." They're originally from Yunnan, in China.

[Weedy]

Looking at lots of pictures in Google images might be a good a way as any to get an idea of what the different groups look like. Maybe also Google some basic cultural/politness tips to help your interactions go smoothly.

[spunkymuzicnote]

Asking them their name and where they are from would be the first step in getting to know them and making them feel welcome. Why do you think a method of visually sorting kids into different ethnic groups will help you?

Because if I can't put a name to a face then I might as well call the kids "hey you". I'm already bad at names and I can't make them wear name tags the entire summer. I don't want to sort them into different ethnic groups. I want to tell them apart so I can understand their different personalities. For example, to me all little black boys with short haircuts look the same. I'm not trying to be racist it's just how my brain works and I'm trying to fix that so I think that counts for something. If I don't know who's who then everything else is just pointless.

Looking at lots of pictures in Google images might be a good a way as any to get an idea of what the different groups look like. Maybe also Google some basic cultural/politness tips to help your interactions go smoothly.

Can you be more specific? I don't even know what to look for when looking at the pictures. I know that different races have different features (brows, eyes, cheek bones, etc) but I don't know what features belong to what race.

Please someone, anyone. Help me. I don't need a debate or to be sent on a wild goose chase for information, I just need facts. Thanks!

[samjones]

Looking at lots of pictures in Google images might be a good a way as any to get an idea of what the different groups look like. Maybe also Google some basic cultural/politness tips to help your interactions go smoothly.

Make sure Safesearch is turned on!

[jjimm]

Real broad brushstrokes.

The eyes (Burmese more 'oriental'). The face shape (Burmese more round). The nose (Pakistanis more acquiline).

Famous Burmese person (http://www.topnews.in/files/aung-san-suu-kyi12.jpg).

Famous Pakistani person (http://pifefap.hostoi.com/gallery/tumblr_lel3ykh7qk1qbm2d5o1_500.jpg).

Note that both of those women are from eudcated political class families, and also their skin tones are lighter than many.

[samjones]

I don't want to sort them into different ethnic groups.

Don't worry - they'll do that themselves.

[tim-n-va]

Asking them their name and where they are from would be the first step in getting to know them and making them feel welcome. Why do you think a method of visually sorting kids into different ethnic groups will help you?

I don't personally subscribe but I've heard people say that they think "where are you from" is code for "you don't belong here".

I couldn't find it in a quick search but I'd read the theory that each group (race/ethnic I'll sidestep that issue) has variances. If you grow up in a relatively "pure" group, you get used to using those variances to identify individuals (hair color, eye color, hair texture for caucasions) and those characteristics won't help you distiguish between other groups (say Native Americans). Not so much racist but just needing to learn which characteristics to look for. I think that is the basic question the OP is getting at and it seems valid.

[John Mace]

Please someone, anyone. Help me. I don't need a debate or to be sent on a wild goose chase for information, I just need facts. Thanks!

Suggesting that there are very easy ways to use the internet to do some very basic research on the subject is not sending you "on a wild goose chase". You've been given some very good advice. Complaining isn't going to win you any friends around here.

[spunkymuzicnote]

I couldn't find it in a quick search but I'd read the theory that each group (race/ethnic I'll sidestep that issue) has variances. If you grow up in a relatively "pure" group, you get used to using those variances to identify individuals (hair color, eye color, hair texture for caucasions) and those characteristics won't help you distiguish between other groups (say Native Americans). Not so much racist but just needing to learn which characteristics to look for. I think that is the basic question the OP is getting at and it seems valid.


Thank you! This is the the sort of thing I am looking for and couldn't put into words. Maybe this will help people understand the question?

[monstro]

After a few days, you will pick out the unique features of the individual children and won't see them as a bunch of different homogenous groups conspiring to confuse you. You'll notice that this kid over there has a crooked nose and spiky hair and that one over here is knock-kneed and furrows his brow a lot. You'll notice that while white people tend to vary more in hair color than they do in skin color, that it's the other way around for other folks. You'll notice that even within the same race, like those those little black boys you mentioned, that some will have different hair textures, face shapes, skin tones, and body frames. Also use your ears. When all else fails, people have unique voices.

There will be no need to categorize the kids based on their ethnic or racial origins. Just take them as the individuals they are.

[robert_columbia]

... Ethnicity isn't a zero-sum game, and it isn't genetic. You can be American and something else, like a heritage ethnicity....

I'd say that genetics do have a role in ethnicity, but it's more than that. Ethnicity is a complex sociological phenomenon that involves a complex interplay of genetics (e.g. who your parents are), language, dress, religion, geography, citizenship, and other things, and involves both a person's self-identification as a member of an ethnicity as well as that person's level of acceptance as a member of that ethnicity both among people that claim the ethnicity and people that do not, etc.

One can argue that there is a non-genetic ethnicity in countries that have seen a lot of immigration from many different parts of the world, so one can be American, Canadian, French, or Brazilian with pretty much any ancestral background. It is a lot more difficult to become accepted as ethnically Korean if your parents aren't Korean.

One could argue that "Appalachian Hillbilly", and "Valley Girl" are ethnicities.

[samjones]

One can argue that there is a non-genetic ethnicity in countries that have seen a lot of immigration from many different parts of the world, so one can be American, Canadian, French, or Brazilian with pretty much any ancestral background.

The taxonomy of ethnicity is an artificial one, like most taxonomies are, but that doesn't mean it has no value.

The best way to determine whether an ethnicity is real or not is to ask whether people identify themselves by that ethnic identifier.

I don't agree that there's an "American" ethnicity - although I think there should be. I think that there are ethnicities unique to America - e.g. Tejano, African Amercan, Sioux, but I believe that the vast majority of Caucasians in the New World refer to themselves by their Old World ethnicity - e.g. Scottish, German, Dutch, Italian...

Hispanics don't do that so much.

[Dr. Drake]

The taxonomy of ethnicity is an artificial one, like most taxonomies are, but that doesn't mean it has no value.

The best way to determine whether an ethnicity is real or not is to ask whether people identify themselves by that ethnic identifier.

I don't agree that there's an "American" ethnicity - although I think there should be. I think that there are ethnicities unique to America - e.g. Tejano, African Amercan, Sioux, but I believe that the vast majority of Caucasians in the New World refer to themselves by their Old World ethnicity - e.g. Scottish, German, Dutch, Italian...

Hispanics don't do that so much.Ethnicity is situational. Take ten Americans from your different "ethnic" categories (Black, Tejano, African-American, Sioux, etc.) and fly them to Zimbabwe. You'll soon discover that they have a lot of things in common that they do not share with the people of Zimbabwe. Of course there are still real ethnic differences between them, but that's doesn't take away from the fact that "American" is a real ethnicity as well as a nationality. I'd agree that it isn't the most useful way to describe someone: most people have a smaller ethnic identity within "American" that more accurately represents who they are.

[samjones]

Ethnicity is situational. Take ten Americans from your different "ethnic" categories (Black, Tejano, African-American, Sioux, etc.) and fly them to Zimbabwe. You'll soon discover that they have a lot of things in common that they do not share with the people of Zimbabwe.

Zimbabwe has 2 "ethnicities"- tribes, really. Shona and Matabele. The Tejano, African-American and Sioux are likely to find that they have far more in common with the white English speaking Rhodesian than they are with either tribe.

[Dr. Drake]

Zimbabwe has 2 "ethnicities"- tribes, really. Shona and Matabele. The Tejano, African-American and Sioux are likely to find that they have far more in common with the white English speaking Rhodesian than they are with either tribe.Please read more carefully. I said "the people of Zimbabwe." The composition of that people is irrelevant to the main point, which is that different ethnic groups in America still share enough cultural features to be classed as an ethnicity. They would still have more in common with each other than with the white Rhodesian.

[purplehorseshoe]

... Can you be more specific? I don't even know what to look for when looking at the pictures. I know that different races have different features (brows, eyes, cheek bones, etc) but I don't know what features belong to what race.

Please someone, anyone. Help me. I don't need a debate or to be sent on a wild goose chase for information, I just need facts. Thanks!

Dude: Google Image search "[ethnicity] people" and you'll get all the visual help you seem to think you'll need. For example, image search for "Burmese people." Look at the pictures for a while, Google image search another ethnicity/race/culture/blahblah, look at those pictures for a while, lather, rinse, repeat.

But really? If you suck at names, you suck at names. ('sokay. I *totally* suck at people's names. Lotsa folks do.) What color the person's name that you forgot is irrelevant - they're still gonna be "hey, you," right? ;)

[samjones]

Please read more carefully. I said "the people of Zimbabwe." The composition of that people is irrelevant to the main point, which is that different ethnic groups in America still share enough cultural features to be classed as an ethnicity. They would still have more in common with each other than with the white Rhodesian.

I've been to South Texas and I've been to Zimbabwe. I'm not sure that I agree with you.

[HubZilla]

In Hawaii, there's lots of Asians, and it can sometimes be hard to tell if someone's Japanese, Korean, Chinese, or Vietnamese. When I used to work in tourism in Waikiki, lord help you if you thought a Japanese was Korean or Chinese, or vice versa. White on black racism, while more famous, has nothing on inter-Asian racism.

I've become pretty good at telling the difference, and yes, some of it could be called racism. The faces are "different": the hair, skin tone, and (yes) eye slants. I can't really describe it. It's nothing brutally simple like "Chinese slants downward", but you can just sort of tell, based on experience. Plus, groups tend to hang out among ethnic lines. So, if you can identify one, you can be reasonably sure the rest are.

My 6-year-old daughter has a funny way of telling the signs and labels apart: Japanese have less "squiggles" than the Chinese. And Korean has "zeros" in their letters.

[Siam Sam]

In Hawaii, there's lots of Asians, and it can sometimes be hard to tell if someone's Japanese, Korean, Chinese, or Vietnamese. When I used to work in tourism in Waikiki, lord help you if you thought a Japanese was Korean or Chinese, or vice versa. White on black racism, while more famous, has nothing on inter-Asian racism.

I've become pretty good at telling the difference, and yes, some of it could be called racism. The faces are "different": the hair, skin tone, and (yes) eye slants. I can't really describe it. It's nothing brutally simple like "Chinese slants downward", but you can just sort of tell, based on experience. Plus, groups tend to hang out among ethnic lines. So, if you can identify one, you can be reasonably sure the rest are.

My 6-year-old daughter has a funny way of telling the signs and labels apart: Japanese have less "squiggles" than the Chinese. And Korean has "zeros" in their letters.

My Thai wife (Chinese ethnicity) is always being mistaken by her fellow Thais for Japanese or Filipina.

[monstro]

The taxonomy of ethnicity is an artificial one, like most taxonomies are, but that doesn't mean it has no value.

The best way to determine whether an ethnicity is real or not is to ask whether people identify themselves by that ethnic identifier.

I don't agree that there's an "American" ethnicity - although I think there should be. I think that there are ethnicities unique to America - e.g. Tejano, African Amercan, Sioux, but I believe that the vast majority of Caucasians in the New World refer to themselves by their Old World ethnicity - e.g. Scottish, German, Dutch, Italian...

Hispanics don't do that so much.

It seem to me most white people do the "I'm a mutt" thing. And Hispanics certainly are big on what "kind" of Hispanic they are, almost to a fault. Don't dare call a Cuban a Puerto Rican, or a Puerto Rican a Mexican. Really, don't call anyone a Mexican. Unfortunately no one ever wants to be mistaken for that. Everyone's got to get their hate on, it seems.

It varies where you are in the country, the white people thing. In NJ, I found that white people were more likely to play up their Polish or Italian or whatever heritage. But in Georgia, where I was born and raised, really only Jewish people would distinguish themselves in this way (I had a teacher in middle school who would constantly explain the etymology of her German-derived surname, as if a bunch of 12 year olds would even notice or care).

If I were white, I don't know if I would feel comfortable claiming my old world ethnicity unless it was fairly recent (like my parents were immigrants or something). If I've never been to the "old country", had relatives complain that I don't speak the "old country" language, or really know that much about the "old country's" customs, I'd probably just say "I'm American." I think most people would know what that means more so than "I'm a German American." I can kinda sorta picture what that person would be in a place like Michigan, but not so much down South.

[Romeo and Whatsherface]

OP, I have the same problem with white kids, and I'm white. I'm a high school teacher, so I have to learn 150 names each year. If there are, for instance, two white boys who are roughly the same height and build and have short blonde hair, it's very easy for me to confuse them. I do get them sorted out--my goal is always no later than 2 weeks into the term.

The first few days, you likely WILL get some of them confused, but you would even if they each had obvious differences in hair or eye color. That's OK--they'll expect any adult meeting them en masse to get their names wrong at first because they're kids and have been through this introductory phase before, most likely. What will clue you in will be their voices, personality traits, and eventually, subtle differences in their facial features. If you don't stress about it, it'll be even easier.

Best of luck.

[clairobscur]

Not so much racist but just needing to learn which characteristics to look for. .


The problem is that it isn't a conscious process, but the way the brain works (and face recognition is a pretty complex process. It's obvious to me that my mother is my mother, but if I had to explain exactly how to tell her apart from a similar looking female, it would be a bit more complicated, and certainly not instantaneous).

So, I don't think you can really "learn" it. Rather, you'd have to be immersed in an area where there are a lot of "different looking" people until the part of your brain in charge of face recognition begins to automatically classify features other than what it's currently accustomed to (instead of putting everybody in the same "guy with abnormally elongated eyes and abnormally high cheeks" folder).


By the way there are people who have a serious deficit in face recognition (can't remember how this condition is called) and can only tell people apart by consciously noting obvious features (my wife has round ears, aunt Martha long curly hairs, etc..). Apart from that faces are for them essentially "blank".

[Siam Sam]

It seem to me most white people do the "I'm a mutt" thing. And Hispanics certainly are big on what "kind" of Hispanic they are, almost to a fault. Don't dare call a Cuban a Puerto Rican, or a Puerto Rican a Mexican. Really, don't call anyone a Mexican. Unfortunately no one ever wants to be mistaken for that. Everyone's got to get their hate on, it seems.

It varies where you are in the country, the white people thing. In NJ, I found that white people were more likely to play up their Polish or Italian or whatever heritage. But in Georgia, where I was born and raised, really only Jewish people would distinguish themselves in this way (I had a teacher in middle school who would constantly explain the etymology of her German-derived surname, as if a bunch of 12 year olds would even notice or care).

If I were white, I don't know if I would feel comfortable claiming my old world ethnicity unless it was fairly recent (like my parents were immigrants or something). If I've never been to the "old country", had relatives complain that I don't speak the "old country" language, or really know that much about the "old country's" customs, I'd probably just say "I'm American." I think most people would know what that means more so than "I'm a German American." I can kinda sorta picture what that person would be in a place like Michigan, but not so much down South.

I'm one of those mutts. You name it in Europe, it's probably in me. One direct ancestor was even knighted by Queen Elizabeth I and one Irish ancestor was at one time the richest man in New York (colonial days) and had farmland on what is now Greenwich Village (no riches passed down to me, alas :(), but I identify most with Swiss German, due to my surname. Plus the American branch of the family reestablished contact with the branch around Saint Gallen, and I've even visited them there.

[Argent Towers]

My suggestion is to make all the kids from Pakistan wear a special armband.