American President's who've killed?

[Diabolik]

I was recently at a friend's house and he had an encyclodepia that contained an article about a President from a while back who killed another politician in a gun duel. I think it happened as they were arguing about a law or something. How many politicians in American history have capped each other?

[astorian]

Andrew Jackson is the only U.S. president I KNOW killed a man in a duel. THough duelling remained legal well into the 19th century, it was already considered distasteful and archaic in most circles by the time George Washington became President (Alexander Hamilton could easily have refused to duel with Aaron Burr without any real loss of face). But Jackson was not a man who cared much about the opinion of polite society

[pluto]

Maybe you were thinking of Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. Neither of whom became president. Especially Hamilton, post-duel. Burr was vice-president, tho.

After writing the foregoing, I vaguely remembered something in connection with Andrew Jackson. A quick search found this:

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/aj7/about/bio/duel.htm

Apparently Old Hickory had a violent past.

I was going to guess that other presidents who served in the military in wartime may have killed someone in battle, but on second thought most of them were officers who may not have gone into combat. Dwight Eisenhower, for example, was a great soldier but probably never even fired his pistol in WWII. George Bush was a fighter pilot, though. He surely must have shot someone down.

But I digress...the intent was to uncover those who killed their political opponents. I don't know of any American presidents who have done so, but Ferdie Marcos, late of the Philippines, was guilty of same, although he avoided conviction on a technicality.


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"non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem"
-- William of Ockham

[pluto]

I know! REVIEW then post!


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"non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem"
-- William of Ockham

[RTA]

Jackson had to fight a lot of duels @ 1800-1812 because of his wife Rachel, who married him when her divorce was not yet final (she was an "unwitting" bigamist for awhile). There was a lot of gossiping about her.
I don't know his win/loss record but he did sustain a lot of injuries having been stabbed and shot and beaten on several occasions. This was par for the course for him - he had a huge scar on his forehead from a British saber, put there when he was a 13-year old guerrilla fighter in South Carolina.
While Jackson was actually President he didn't kill anybody, though he nearly did - after surviving our nation's first assassination attempt (misfired pistol) he immediately beat the hell out of his assailant with his walking stick.

Plenty of Presidents have directly killed, or in some cases probably killed, people -while serving in the military.

[RTA]

Y'know, like Pluto said.

[TerryTerrific]

<<Maybe you were thinking of Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. Neither of whom became president. Especially Hamilton, post-duel. Burr was vice-president, tho.>>

+++++

C'est bien dommage ...

Our friend Alexander was not American born.

Hamilton was born in 1757 on the island of Nevis, in the Leeward group, British West Indies.

So no chance at becoming Président de Etats-Unis d'Amérique.


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Terence in Marietta, GA

Be someone's hero

[BobT]

Alexander Hamilton indeed could have been president. The Constitution says that you have to be born in the United States or be a resident of it at the time the Constitution was ratified. Since there aren't any 212 year olds walking around, that clause is now obsolete.
The Framers knew that it would be a while before there was a president who was actually born after the time the United States came into being.
Martin Van Buren was the first "American" president. The first seven were all born as British subjects.

[PunditLisa]

Apparently Old Hickory had a violent past.

Andy Jackson was the President responsible for the Trail of Tears. Despite a Supreme Court ruling that sided with the Cherokee, and gave them back their land in Georgia, he defied the Supreme Court, rounded the Cherokee up and forced them to relocate to Oklahoma. So indirectly at least, he was responsible for the deaths of a lot of innocent people.

[Babar714]

Correct, PunditLisa. It pisses me off to see his face on currency, despite the fact that he was a mass-murdering fuck head. In my opinion, he is up there with Hitler, Stalin, Mengale, and all the other ethnic cleansers. I say get his likeness of our money, because he doesn't deserve the coffin he's burried in.

[C K Dexter Haven]

So the question is American Presidents who have killed political opponents, not just those who fought in wars (Teddy Roosevelt, George Bush, etc.)

Hmmmm. How about the rumours that Nixon ordered the Kennedy assassination? (He hired the FBI, the Masons, the CIA, the Russians, the Illuminati, and I forget whow else, he wouldn't soil his hands himself.)

Strainger -- warning! sarcasm sometimes leaks into my posts, all unintended by me.

[RTA]

I think the question implies "killed directly" i.e. "by their own hand". This excludes weeping over the Cherokee nation or even the two English "spies" Jackson ordered hung in 1818 during the 1st Seminole War.
If the question was which presidents have had people killed, whether specifically or as the result of some decision, I'd say "all of them".

[BurnMeUp]

I would also have to say any President who served a combat position in the army (like George Bush or Eisenhower (sp?)) Would also count as killing people.


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To deal with men by force is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion.

[mikehardware]

Grover Cleveland was Sheriff of Erie County, NY 1871 to 1873, and personally pulled the hanging trap on 2 convicted murderers.

[ChiefScott]

Reagan killed in "Bedtime for Bonzo"!

[Strainger]

Dex:Strainger -- warning! sarcasm sometimes leaks into my posts, all unintended by me.Yeah, but you're on such a roll lately. I don't know if that's healthy. Maybe you should talk to a doctor about it. I don't want you to die from sarcasmitosis. :)

I'd say Truman would be the winner, what with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. No matter whether you feel these were justified or not, you gotta admit he killed a LOT of people. "With his own hand," I guess, if you count signing the order to drop the bombs.

And of course, there was JFK smothering Marilyn Monroe with a pillow while RFK stood watch and Elvis planted the pills on her bedside table . . .

[Sam Stone]

Bush was a Torpedo Bomber pilot, not a fighter pilot. There's no doubt that he killed a lot of guys, though. He was personal credited along with another TBM pilot for sinking a cargo ship, and on the flight where he was shot down he managed to drop his weapons load on another ship, scoring a direct hit.

Bush received the Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC), three Air Medals, and a Unit Citation in WWII.

[BobT]

I don't think Lincoln saw any combat action in the Black Hawk war. He signed up, but he missed out on the action IIRC.

As for generals like Washington, Taylor, Grant, and Eisenhower, I believe they all didn't start out as generals and must have had some combat action as officers.

[Doctor Jackson]

Don't you people read? There are lists on this very Internet which show that Clinton is a killing machine. The body count must be up to 750,000 by now, maybe a million. He even killed my dog, Fritz, when I was a child. Oh, yeah, Fritz was hit by a car - but I saw the driver and he was smoking a very moist cigar.

Geez, why did I tell y'all this? I'll be next number on the hit parade, fer shure. Yep, one-in-a-million, that's me.

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The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs. -- E. Grebenik

[Sam Stone]

Eisenhower was a 'political general'. He was commissioned as an officer in 1916, and therefore should have seen action in WWII, but I think he managed to stay stateside, working as an aide to various officers.

[Sam Stone]

Er, I meant "should have seen action in WWI"

[RTA]

Washington and Wm. Henry Harrison fought in the French & Indian war, not as generals but as young line officers. Washington was in the thick of it at Great Meadows.
Monroe fought as a young lieutenant during the early Revolution and was severely wounded at Trenton.
Taylor made his name as a young captain at Tippecanoe (3 Sept 1812), where he and some 50 troops defended a fort against a much larger group of Indians. The assault lasted all night and the Indian losses were very heavy.
Grant and Lincoln did not really do any fighting as young officers, though Grant was nearly killed by riding through artillery fire in Mexico.
Hayes and Garfield were Generals in the Civil War and saw plenty of combat, horses shot out from under them etc. so who knows.

[RTA]

I should add that throughout that time officers carried swords and pistols, so any killing would have had to been done in very close proximity.

[astorian]

I should note that, while MODERN generals are often situated in safe quarters FAR from the battle, that was not always the case. In the Civil War, generals actually had HIGHER casulaty rates than privates! So, don't assume that because a President was a general, he wasn't in any real danger.

[dougie_monty]

I find it interesting about Andrew Jackson: Much was made in 1828 of his duels and how many people he allegedly killed. I note, however:
1) He won in 1828 and 1832 (He might have won in 1824, but the issue was given to the House of Representatives since no candidate had an electoral majority), despite the mudslinging his opponenets reveled in. (He had a plurality in the popular vote all three times.)
2) Nothing was made of his "killings," in the 1832 campaign. Rachel was dead (I guess the opponets wanted her dead) so the opposition had to find a different issue. The "killings" didn't wow 'em in 1828, so in 1832 they spread rumors that he was born out of the country. the Book of Lists 2 claimed: "If he had admitted to his foreign birth, he would not have been eligible to the presidency." He was born in 1767 and so was a citizen at the time the Coinstitutuion was adopted, so that's not an issue.
But the Book of Lists swallowed the Whigs' 1832 lie about Jackson hook, line, and sinker. It makes me suspect whatever they said about him in 1828.
After all, Nicholas Biddle, whose Bank of the United States Jackson refused to re-charter, conducted the 1832 campaign against Jackson and the 1840 campaign against Jackson's successor, Martin Van Buren. The credibility of Jackson's "killing" record is thus suspect to me. And while we're on the subject, who stopped the British from sacking New Orleans in 1815? Jackson, that's who!

[According to Pliny]

RTA- I think you're a little confused about WH Harrison and Z. Taylor. The F&I war took place more than 70 years before Harrison was elected. Harrison was the hero of Tippicanoe(I don't know if Taylor was there) . Taylor was the hero of the war with Mexico.

[dougie_monty]

And Harrison was 68 when he was elected, too.
Therefore...

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"If you drive an automobile, please drive carefully--because I walk in my sleep."--Victor Borge

[RTA]

RRRrrriiiiight but it WAS Indians that Harrison fought, so just ignore the "French and" part.
Yet the exposed and isolated fort Taylor heroically defended was in the same area as the Tippecanoe victory (a year before) of his commanding officer WH Harrison. It was called, not coincidentally, Fort Harrison.
And he received great attention in the press for his valiant defense of it, being promoted to Major in the process. He was a well known military man long before the Mexican War.
So his victory was indeed "at Tippecanoe" like I said but not the same battle that produced the more famous "Tippecanoe and Tyler too". THAT was Harrison.

[RealityChuck]

Teddy Roosevelt probably killed some Spaniards on San Juan Hill.

Abraham Lincoln took part in the Black Hawk War, but I don't know if he shot anyone.

Don't know about the various generals who became president -- Eisenhower, Grant, Taylor, Washington. The commander doesn't usually get much chance to shoot anyone.

[Sofa King]

As far as Jackson not killing anyone, well, I don't know. A recent test on some of his remains showed that while he did have elevated levels of lead in his body, he was not suffering from lead poisoning per se.

The two bullets he was carrying around were acquired from duelling, not from his extensive combat experience. So we know that he either lost or tied, twice. The other guys may not have been as lucky as he.

Also, I dimly recall that Jackson's method of recruiting in New Orleans before that battle involved personal coercion at gunpoint. Anyone remember if he used that gun?

[torq]

Having two bullets in him doesn't mean he lost (or tied) twice. If Jackson is shot in the leg and lives, while X is shot in the heart and dies, I don't think anyone but the most pedantic would argue that was a "tie". X, in particular, would probably disagree.

[PunditLisa]

X, in particular, would probably disagree.

Ummm. Doubt it.

[dougie_monty]

Jacskon recruited backwoodsmen, pirates, and convicts. Remember The Dirty Dozen? Maybe some of those had to be recruited at gunpoint. It's like getting drafted these days.

[jwg]

Jackson's recruiting a gunpoint was not entirely out of line for the early 19th century in a critical situation. Not everyone was eager to stand in the way of the British Army, and not everyone was particularly loyal to the United States in New Orleans.

[DSYoungEsq]

RRRrrriiiiight but it WAS Indians that Harrison fought, so just ignore the "French and" part.
Yet the exposed and isolated fort Taylor heroically defended was in the same area as the Tippecanoe victory (a year before) of his commanding officer WH Harrison. It was called, not coincidentally, Fort Harrison.
And he received great attention in the press for his valiant defense of it, being promoted to Major in the process. He was a well known military man long before the Mexican War.
So his victory was indeed "at Tippecanoe" like I said but not the same battle that produced the more famous "Tippecanoe and Tyler too". THAT was Harrison.
Well.......... not quite.

William Henry Harrison, Governor of Indiana Territory, 'defeated' (WAY too strong a term - he survived a night-time attack and then marched into the abandoned village the next day) an Amerind force at 'Tippecanoe' (a village founded by Tecumseh on the Tippecanoe river near its junction with the Wabash, where present day Lafayette is).

Zachary Taylor, Captain, in command of Fort Harrison, located near Terra Haute on the east bank of the Wabash river, in 1812 survived a nighttime assault on the fort. For this, he was made the first brevet major of the Army; he was later confirmed in that rank in 1815.

He later won battles against Black Hawk in 1832 and the Seminoles in 1837. He later became famous for his string of victories over the Mexican forces in 1846 and 1847, culminating in the victory at Buena Vista over General Santa Anna, which victory (made more difficult by political manoevering of President Polk), made him so well known, he was chosen in 1848 to lead the Whig party into the election for President.

Thus, while Taylor certainly did have a victory over Amerinds in Indiana, it was not at 'Tippecanoe', nor really very close. He was, however, well known for his results as a commander before the Mexican-American War, but it was his victory at Buena Vista that made him popular (with the ample help of the Whig press).

[dougie_monty]

Maybe it was because both Whig candidates who were elected, Harrison and Taylor, died in office, leaving the Presidency to also-rans like Tyler and Fillmore, that the Whig party elected no more Presidential candidates and died a quiet death. Henry Clay didn't have that much charisma...

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"If you drive an automobile, please drive carefully--because I walk in my sleep."--Victor Borge