Why I as an American support revolt in China

[humanafterall]

We have a lot of companies who have sent our manufacturing and production jobs overseas to China, because they are happy to work for pennies a day, while the Corporate execs rake in big paychecks and and expand the divide between rich and poor. Corporate execs' pay has gone up 400% since 1970 (Source: MSNBC). If a large-scale war broke out that consumed all of China, it would suddenly become too costly and dangerous to not ship our jobs back to the US, where they belong. There's a lot of jobs in China, and there's a lot of unemployed people here. Do the math.

[humanafterall]

Bump for great justice

[Ravenman]

Nice prioritization of American jobs over huge losses of life. Well done.

[Der Trihs]

Nice prioritization of American jobs over huge losses of life. Well done.Yes. A massive civil war in China would result in an enormous death toll, and "jobs!" isn't a good enough justification for that. Not only that, all that would happen is that the jobs in question get sent to the next most low paying country, not America. So it fails even on that level.

[Oakminster]

What a great idea! Let's you and him fight.

:rolleyes:

[XT]

We have a lot of companies who have sent our manufacturing and production jobs overseas to China, because they are happy to work for pennies a day, while the Corporate execs rake in big paychecks and and expand the divide between rich and poor.

Sounds like a win/win to me. We get cheap products and they get jobs they are happy to do for 'pennies a day'.

If a large-scale war broke out that consumed all of China, it would suddenly become too costly and dangerous to not ship our jobs back to the US, where they belong.

Why would 'large-scale war' break out in China? What do you suppose would be the result if it did? Do you imagine that if there was some sort of civil war in China that this would automatically bring all those good low wage manufacturing jobs back to the US? Why? Why do they belong here in any case? Do we have some sort of lock on all manufacturing and production jobs in the world?

(I'm of course leaving aside the fact that our economy would take a huge hit if China went tits up, as well as the effects on our trade not only with China but with several other countries that would be effected by civil war in China, since even glossing over that there are some, um, rather glaring holes in your OP)

There's a lot of jobs in China, and there's a lot of unemployed people here. Do the math.

Americans are not willing to work for 'pennies a day'. The math seems to indicate that if those jobs weren't in China they would be in some other country that has workers willing to work at those levels. If by some chance every other country with low wage labor on earth also broke out in civil war at the same time and that manufacturing came back to the US then most likely we STILL wouldn't get all those jobs back, since what we'd actually do is automate. And you, I and everyone else would pay more for goods and services but still not have all those gods given Amurican Jobs(tm) done by Real Amurican Workers(aar)...they'd be done by machines.

Why do we constantly seem to be getting bombarded by these kinds of threads? Do the math...

-XT

[Kobal2]

Jesus, what's with all the anti-China threads lately ?

[Slithy Tove]

Well, you start one and an hour later you're pissed off again.

[marshmallow]

Following the OP's logic, doesn't that seems like a good reason to have a revolution in the US instead? It's not like China is the only poor country with excess labor.

[BrainGlutton]

Is there even a flicker of revolt on China's horizon anyway? If there is, the state must be hiding the news quite effectively.

[humanafterall]

The war thing is presented as an idea of a situation that could make it too costly to manufacture there. If you've got a better idea, I'd love to hear it.

[Ravenman]

You seem to be ruling out an American first-strike thermonuclear holocaust on China. Why?

[humanafterall]

I missed the edit window, but here's another thing. Should I take my Information Technology industry certifications with me to China so I can live on pennies a day like a rice farmer?

[BrainGlutton]

Of course, a revolution in China might succeed, and establish democracy, followed (after a painful period of fixing up the war-damage) by more-broadly-shared prosperity and even more amazing economic development.

Be careful what you wish for.

[XT]

The war thing is presented as an idea of a situation that could make it too costly to manufacture there. If you've got a better idea, I'd love to hear it.

A better idea for what? What exactly is the goal here? To bring back low wage high volume jobs to the US 'where they belong'?? Easy...convince American workers to work those jobs for low wages and no benefits. Done. Or, conversely, convince the American consumer to pay more (a LOT more) for the same cheap goods they are currently getting.

I missed the edit window, but here's another thing. Should I take my Information Technology industry certifications with me to China so I can live on pennies a day like a rice farmer?

I don't know...does that seem to be a good idea to you? It has no really compelling allure for me. That seems like a life changing decision that you really shouldn't ask people on a message board advice on before leaping in...

-XT

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Yes, let's have a war that might turn nuclear and result in decimation of two of the world's largest countries, let's have a war that makes the Ostfront look like child's play. :rolleyes::dubious:

[ZPG Zealot]

Is there even a flicker of revolt on China's horizon anyway? If there is, the state must be hiding the news quite effectively.

China has a growing population of young unmarried men a portion of which are unlikely to ever marry. This is often a favorable precondition to warfare and social unrest.

[BrainGlutton]

Yes, let's have a war that might turn nuclear and result in decimation of two of the world's largest countries, let's have a war that makes the Ostfront look like child's play. :rolleyes::dubious:

Soon, Qin. Be patient. Your Majesty's Restoration is at hand.

[BrainGlutton]

China has a growing population of young unmarried men a portion of which are unlikely to ever marry. This is often a favorable precondition to warfare and social unrest.

It is also a favorable precondition for . . . something that seems to give the Chinese government the willies, and not in a good way. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China#Modern_China) Though they are getting better . . .

Even as late as the early 1980s, there were some Chinese men seeking asylum in other countries reported that they had faced systematic discrimination and harassment from the government because of their sexual orientation as well as similar mistreatment from family members [2]. Likewise, the Chinese government did treat homosexuality as a disease and subjected gay men to electric shock therapy and other attempts to change their sexual orientation ["China Using Electrodes To 'Cure' Homosexuals", New York Times, January 29, 1990]

<snip>

In 1997, the Chinese criminal code was revised to eliminate the vague crime of "hooliganism", which had been used as a de facto ban on private, adult, non-commercial and consensual homosexual conduct.

On April 20, 2001, the Chinese Classification of Mental Disorders formally removed homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses.[47][48]

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Soon, Qin. Be patient. Your Majesty's Restoration is at hand.

Your Majesty's Restoration? :confused:

[XT]

Well, you WERE the first emperor of China, no? :p

-XT

[BrainGlutton]

I keed, I keed. Actually, I'm the rightful Emperor of China. My reign-name is Dong Hang Lo. Of the Wang Dynasty.

[Indistinguishable]

Listen: What you are supporting is evil. In simple words, you are proposing that large numbers of Chinese people should be murdered for the crime of being more attractive than you. Employers have every right to choose who they want to hook up with and the miscegenation of American employers hooking up with non-American employees is not a capital offense.

[humanafterall]

Yes, the jobs over there in China are low wage high volume jobs, but Isn't that why labor unions exist? I know that in China, there are no unions, because the government is supposedly one giant labor union. If we move jobs back here, we can just have the labor unions push execs to give higher wages.

[Farmer Jane]

War in China so we can get new contracts with factories in Indonesia?

[BrainGlutton]

In simple words, you are proposing that large numbers of Chinese people should be murdered for the crime of being more attractive than you.

:confused: Doesn't that fall under justifiable homicide?

[humanafterall]

I know they don't have independent labor unions in china, and here's a cite to back me up. (http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=363&catid=9&subcatid=60)

[BrainGlutton]

I know they don't have independent labor unions in china, and here's a cite to back me up. (http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=363&catid=9&subcatid=60)

Well, I never heard of any Communist country that allows labor unions independent of state/party control.

[XT]

Yes, the jobs over there in China are low wage high volume jobs, but Isn't that why labor unions exist?

You lost me. What have labor unions got to do with the fact that the jobs you want back in the US are low wage and high volume? Do you think the Chinese are going to organize labor unions to agitate for higher wages? They are a communist state...by definition the whole country is already one big labor union. :p

(kidding aside, the Chinese are already agitating for higher wages, and no doubt their wages will go up...but that just means that eventually the low wage high volume jobs will move somewhere else or be automated, not that they will come back to the US)

I know that in China, there are no unions, because the government is supposedly one giant labor union.

Right. And? They aren't forcing those folks to take the jobs at gun point...the people in China are dirt poor. Working for low wages in dirty and dangerous conditions is a step up for most of their population. It beats being a dirt farmer in some village backwater in east bumfuck China, that's for sure.

If we move jobs back here, we can just have the labor unions push execs to give higher wages.

Are you going to push the consumers to pay higher prices for the goods and services we all currently get from low cost goods coming in from China and other low wage nations? Because here is the thing...even if you could move those manufacturing plants back to the US by force, and even if you could force 'execs' to pay higher wages, that will mean the products will cost more...and, most likely, that those companies forced to be here in the US will use automation instead of masses of high paid low skilled workers. Do you REALLY think that moving jobs from China to the US would be a one for one deal? More like a one for a hundred, or one for a thousand proposition, realistically.

Seriously...do you not understand that the US actually has quite a bit of manufacturing in right here in the states? Our manufacturing output was actually on the rise for the past decade or so before the recession. But the jobs in manufacturing have been declining in the US for several decades because US companies don't use masses of low skilled high wage workers anymore...we automate.

-XT

[humanafterall]

A better idea for what? What exactly is the goal here? To bring back low wage high volume jobs to the US 'where they belong'?? Easy...convince American workers to work those jobs for low wages and no benefits. Done. Or, conversely, convince the American consumer to pay more (a LOT more) for the same cheap goods they are currently getting.

Ironically, it's a bit of a "You'll take what money we give you and like it" situation. I just feel that outsourcing creates more problems than it solves. I don't exactly see how it's a sound business plan. Besides, if the American workers don't like how low the wages are, that's why labor unions exist.

[humanafterall]

You know, some of our prepackaged food comes from China. When you pause to think how many lead-contaminated products and frozen prepackaged meals full of harmful bacteria come to our shores and into our homes, it kind of makes you wish for better quality that comes only from America.

[XT]

Ironically, it's a bit of a "You'll take what money we give you and like it" situation. I just feel that outsourcing creates more problems than it solves. I don't exactly see how it's a sound business plan. Besides, if the American workers don't like how low the wages are, that's why labor unions exist.

How will you get American consumers to buy higher priced American goods? Will you force them to? How will you stop other countries from importing cheaper goods and services and undercutting American companies who are forced to use higher priced American labor that gives no economic benefit aside from them being Americans? An American working a similar assembly line to a Chinese brings nothing to the process and adds no additional value...just additional costs. The value add for American companies is all through our automation and expert systems...which all use substantially less labor both in terms of quantity and cost to Chinese companies.

How will labor unions force consumers to buy American goods that are the same as imports but cost more? How will companies force American workers to work for below minimum wage with no benefits? The only way you could make this fantasy happen would be to first off put massive tariffs on imported goods and services...which will automatically mean that our goods and services that we export will have massive tariffs placed on them (which will mean that right off the bat you are going to cause Americans to lose jobs...lots of jobs). Then you will have to force American flagged companies that want to stay American flagged (and thus avoid the tariffs) to use only American labor.

And do you know what you will accomplish with all of this? You will create a few jobs (perhaps) in manufacturing and an initial boost in construction as US companies build automated manufacturing plants to make the goods and services you want to force back to the US...at the cost of US trade and at a huge cost to the US public in goods and services that they now have to pay a great deal more for. How do you think the public will react?

(You really didn't need a new thread on this, since this is essentially a repeat of an ongoing thread that Le Jac has been posting about in GD and the Pit for months now...you could just look for any post by him and put your thoughts in there, since it's the same thing over and over again)

-XT

[Vinyl Turnip]

Corporate execs rake in big paychecks and and expand the divide between rich and poor. Corporate execs' pay has gone up 400%

Let's be fair. They're making great gains, yes, but it'll take a while for them to catch up to American capitalism.

[humanafterall]

Well, then, what about the morality of outsourcing?Is it morally right to make 13 year old Chuk Sim manufacture shoes in a hot and steamy factory, full of dangerous machinery and tools, only to receive at most 15 cents at the end of the day?

[Der Trihs]

Well, then, what about the morality of outsourcing?Is it morally right to make 13 year old Chuk Sim manufacture shoes in a hot and steamy factory, full of dangerous machinery and tools, only to receive at most 15 cents at the end of the day?No. But blowing him up is not a morally superior alternative.

[BrainGlutton]

China has a growing population of young unmarried men a portion of which are unlikely to ever marry. This is often a favorable precondition to warfare and social unrest.

[shrug] So let's send them women. American women. They'll be running the country in six months, and all the guys will learn English or else they'll learn English.

[XT]

Well, then, what about the morality of outsourcing?Is it morally right to make 13 year old Chuk Sim manufacture shoes in a hot and steamy factory, full of dangerous machinery and tools, only to receive at most 15 cents at the end of the day?

Where is the morality of dictating morality to another country? What are your 13 year old's prospects if s/he wasn't working in that factory? What would they be doing if not that job?

Ultimately it's up to the Chinese to decide what's best for them, as a whole and as a people. As they become more affluent then they will, perhaps, make similar choices to the ones we and our European buddies did wrt child labor laws. Or, maybe they won't...it's up to them to decide.

If it bothers you then by all means, vote with your pocketbook. If enough people vote with their pocketbooks and decide that importing goods and services from another country that uses child labor is unacceptable then that will make a change...either those countries will change their practices, or the American consumer will be prepared to pay more of a premium on goods and services they buy for the privilege of those goods and services not being made by children.

But really this isn't about child labor or the poor downtrodden Chinese worker...this is, again, about American exceptional-ism, and some sort of divine or whatever right that Americans supposedly have to high paying low skilled jobs. The trouble is, they don't have any right to a high paying low skilled job because their labor is no longer in demand for those jobs as it once was. When we were the only game in town then we could force that situation. We aren't the only game in town anymore, and US labor has to compete with labor from around the world now...and much of that labor outside of the US is willing, even eager to work for a hell of a lot less money and in a hell of a lot more trying and dangerous conditions and with a hell of a lot more risks.

As long as people are given a choice in the goods and services they buy, and as long as a large percentage of them make decisions based on price, that situation is not going to change. And attempting to force through some sort of change is not going to get the results you think it will wrt all those jobs supposedly taken from the US coming back here.

-XT

[humanafterall]

I again stress however, the many product recalls of products from China that were found to have unsafe levels of lead, because the manufacturing standards are so lax over there. We all have the right to safe products, and I, for one feel that price is no object on the matter of safety.

[XT]

Stress it all you like, but until there is a fundamental shift in the US consumers views of goods and services from China it won't really matter. I'm all for higher levels of regulation on imported goods, but that isn't going to change the fundamental equation here. All it would do is, perhaps, drive American consumers to buy goods and services from some other country, or to cause the Chinese to spend more on quality control and PR. It's not going to bring those jobs back to the US.

-XT

[Marley23]

Like a lot of people with "do the math" solutions, you're ignoring a lot of messy reality. I hope China becomes more democratic, but saying you'd like them to have an enormous civil war just to bring some low-paying jobs back to the U.S. is twisted.

[humanafterall]

Okay, so maybe a bit of a Michael Moore approach? I go to China and start filming the labor riots and unsafe work conditions, maybe even film the vats that contain the lead-based paint? That should raise US awareness I think. Maybe interview a few workers, ask some American parents about the lead in their baby's toys?

[Farmer Jane]

I again stress however, the many product recalls of products from China that were found to have unsafe levels of lead, because the manufacturing standards are so lax over there. We all have the right to safe products, and I, for one feel that price is no object on the matter of safety.

So don't buy that stuff. "Unsafe levels" of lead per regulations are actually extremely low.

Newsflash: People like to buy cheap shit.

[XT]

Okay, so maybe a bit of a Michael Moore approach? I go to China and start filming the labor riots and unsafe work conditions, maybe even film the vats that contaion the lead-based pain?

Well, I could point out that McDonald's sales don't seem to have suffered much from MM's efforts, but, again, what is your goal here? What are you trying to achieve? If it's to bring the jobs from China back to the US then I'm not seeing how this is going to accomplish that goal. All you'll do is, perhaps, cause American consumers to look for their goods and services that they get from Chinese companies to companies in other parts of the world that also have cheap labor.

I'm not saying to making American consumers aware of possible health effects from goods and services from China is a bad thing (I think you are highly overplaying and overstating the actual threat, but that's another subject), but it's not going to accomplish bringing back those jobs to the US. NOTHING is going to EVER bring those jobs back to the US. They are gone for good, for better or worst. We have moved beyond manufacturing that requires large numbers of low skilled workers to accomplish repetitive tasks.

-XT

[Marley23]

If that's your plan, humanafterall, I wouldn't buy a roundtrip ticket.

I think most people would agree China's manufacturing standards can be shoddy. It's a harder to be definitive about how much workers are being paid, but unskilled workers aren't getting a lot of protection. My take is that China is basically going through its own version of the Gilded Age and things will improve in time. Which doesn't mean there shouldn't be pressure whenever they're falling short.

[humanafterall]

So don't buy that stuff. "Unsafe levels" of lead per regulations are actually extremely low.

Newsflash: People like to buy cheap shit.

Yeah but the cheap shit breaks easily, thus proving the trueism, "You get what you pay for!"

[BrainGlutton]

I think most people would agree China's manufacturing standards can be shoddy.

I think a lot of Americans remember a time (I don't, but I've read period media) when "Made in Japan" meant "shoddy." But that only lasted until they got the hang of the thing.

[Lemur866]

It's a myth that American manufacturing has disappeared. Our manufacturing sector is larger than it has ever been. It's just that we don't employ that many people in manufacturing compared to 50 years ago, and the service sector has grown much faster than the manufacturing sector. So as a percentage of the economy the manufacturing sector is relatively smaller, despite being absolutely larger.

The main reason American manufacturing jobs have shrunk is not overseas competition but automation. Nobody wants to pay somebody twenty dollars an hour to stand at an assembly line and insert tab A into slot B all day every day, when you can build a machine to perform the same function. And face facts, a job where you spend all day every day inserting tab A into slot B is a horrible soul-crushing job. Sweatshop workers didn't rhapsodize about the wonders of industrialism. It's just that working a dead-end sweatshop job was better than starving to death in the gutter.

So who wants to work in a sweatshop? Nobody who has a choice. Americans have a choice, and we choose not to work in sweatshops, and sweatshops located in America are invariably staffed by immigrants, some documented some undocumented. A civil war in China isn't going to bring sweatshop jobs back to the United States, it will just make crappy mass produced crap more expensive because it has to be produced in Indonesia and Brazil instead.

China's growing economy is the largest decrease in human misery in the history of the world. After a hundred years of literally unbelievable mismanagment, China has turned itself from a dystopian hellhole to a normal crappy poor country. And this is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. You'd send 1.2 billion people into starvation, misery and death, and all to raise the average wage for low-skilled Americans by a dollar or so. If low-skilled Americans are doing so crappily, what's wrong with welfare, or maybe a rational national health care system? Luckily for everyone on the planet, your wishes will have no effect. Still, the callousness and brutality of your wishes is a bit shocking and disheartening.

[XT]

I think most people would agree China's manufacturing standards can be shoddy. It's a harder to be definitive about how much workers are being paid, but unskilled workers aren't getting a lot of protection. My take is that China is basically going through its own version of the Gilded Age and things will improve in time. Which doesn't mean there shouldn't be pressure whenever they're falling short.

Yeah, I agree...think American before the 1900's. Say 1870's through late 1880's. And I agree...we, as the buyers, have a lot to say as far as the quality of the stuff we are buying. That's why we have regulations on goods and services after all. And those regulations should be enforced to the letter on imported goods and services, and a country failing to meet those regulations shouldn't be allowed to sell goods and services that don't meet our standards. If they don't like that, they can go sell elsewhere. I'm all over that concept.

This won't, however, accomplish bringing those jobs back to the US, but it will accomplish other things that will be good, even if it adds some non-zero amount to the end price.

-XT

[humanafterall]

Alright, so now we have automation, but then what? Why aren't people getting the educations they need to fix the robots? Robots do break down, and invariably it's a human that fixes them. So why aren't we training more people to fix robots and other machinery? I'm trying to leap hurdles, here, people. Is it a money issue? If not, then what?

[XT]

Alright, so now we have automation, but then what? Why aren't people getting the educations they need to fix the robots? Robots do break down, and invariably it's a human that fixes them. So why aren't we training more people to fix robots and other machinery?

Well, leaving aside the fact that 'we' don't train people to do jobs as if they were simply tools to be used (IOW, people decide on their own in the US what jobs they want to pursue and what training or education they do or don't get), there aren't a lot of robot repairmen jobs going wanting. If there was some vast gap in the number of robot repairmen we needed verse the number of trained people available then people would voluntarily orient their training and education towards those kinds of jobs. There aren't so they don't. Labor is just a market, in the end...and works like any other market. If 'we' trained a million robot repairmen where would they work? We don't NEED a million robot repairmen...we need basically the number that we already have, give or take and depending on the area.

-XT

[Chronos]

humanafterall, if you think that Chinese products are shoddy, dangerous, or otherwise inferior, and that the lower prices aren't enough to make up for that, then you're more than free to avoid those products, and instead buy higher-quality but more expensive products. If you think that other Americans are unaware of the inferior quality of Chinese products, you're free to tell us about it, so we can make an informed decision, too. But it may be that some of your fellow citizens will decide that the low price is enough to make up for the quality, and buy them anyway. And for such a person, buying Chinese products is for the best. Why do you want to force people to pay more for products that they already think are good enough?

[Lemur866]

Because if it took as many people to maintain the automated assembly line as it did to run the manual assembly line, what would be the point of automating? Automation means fewer jobs in that sector. This is why one guy running a combine can harvest as much wheat in a day as 1000 peasants with scythes and threshing flails. Yeah, there are jobs building the combine, and jobs fixing the combine, but not 1000 jobs.

Ideally, every goddam manufacturing job would be automated, and we human beings could sit around drinking wine and strumming the harp. Or posting on Facebook rather than strumming the harp.

[Marley23]

Alright, so now we have automation, but then what? Why aren't people getting the educations they need to fix the robots?
Who says they aren't? When people build factories, they don't just let them fall apart unless the business dies. Anyway here's the problem with this example: say you get 10 robots to do the job of 50 people. You then five people to fix the robots. There are still 45 people out of a job.

[Princhester]

Yeah but the cheap shit breaks easily, thus proving the trueism, "You get what you pay for!"

There is only one conclusion available: people are entirely happy to buying absolutely vast amounts of cheap stuff from China. You can point out that some might have dangers or be crappy or whatever other quibbles you can come up with but in the end the commercial reality speaks for itself. People know the stuff can be crappy. They know it can have lead in it. They know it could be bacterial. They still buy the stuff in absolutely vast amounts because 99.99% of it is fine, at least for the price.

You aren't going to change this with any pathetic little scare campaign.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Should I take my Information Technology industry certifications with me to China so I can live on pennies a day like a rice farmer?
Yes.

[humanafterall]

So it is indeed China, not America that is the Golden Land of Opprtunity? Perhaps not freedom, but fortune.

[XT]

So it is indeed China, not America that is the Golden Land of Opprtunity? Perhaps not freedom, but fortune.

In China the average wage is less than $4k/year (granted, that $4k is going to go further in China than in the US) while it's roughly $50k/year in the US. Also, a rather large percentage of the worlds goods and services flow through and into the US, while mostly goods flow out of China. So...you tell me which is the 'Golden Land of Opprtunity'. Do the math. ;)

-XT

[humanafterall]

I believe a few weeks after Chairman Mao came into power, the government sent a message to the citizens stating something along the lines of, "As long as you do not oppose us, you will prosper."

[humanafterall]

In China the average wage is less than $4k/year (granted, that $4k is going to go further in China than in the US) while it's roughly $50k/year in the US. Also, a rather large percentage of the worlds goods and services flow through and into the US, while mostly goods flow out of China. So...you tell me which is the 'Golden Land of Opprtunity'. Do the math. ;)

-XT

Still, it seems I'm guaranteed a very secure job, until I smart off at the government and get shot, or don't work fast enough to please my boss.

[XT]

Still, it seems I'm guaranteed a very secure job, until I smart off at the government and get shot, or don't work fast enough to please my boss.

At a standard of living far below the vast majority of people in Mexico, let alone the US. Doesn't sound exactly like paradise to me, but different strokes and all that jazz.

I believe a few weeks after Chairman Mao came into power, the government sent a message to the citizens stating something along the lines of, "As long as you do not oppose us, you will prosper."

And millions died...many of them starved to death during various agricultural reforms that had little to do with opposing the government. Not a whole lot of prosperity during Mao's reign, but he did dress in pajamas and wore a cool hat, so that's something.

-XT

[humanafterall]

Yeah, well. You don't get far without sacrifice, right? To get one thing, you've got to give up another. Do I really need a cushy mattress? Do I really need my laptop? do I really need A/C?

[Really Not All That Bright]

So it is indeed China, not America that is the Golden Land of Opprtunity? Perhaps not freedom, but fortune.
No, I just think you should go to China.

[humanafterall]

But you are right. I have no right to force people to do or not do anything, no human has that right, which is something China seems to have forgotten.

[humanafterall]

No, I just think you should go to China.

I think you should go to SPAAAAACE!!!
(see what I did there?)

[GIGObuster]

Yeah, well. You don't get far without sacrifice, right? To get one thing, you've got to give up another. Do I really need a cushy mattress? Do I really need my laptop? do I really need A/C?

Actually no, China did not go too far with that sacrifice, only after ditching their sorry planned economy is that then China did go far. How much further it will go by continuing to limit the freedom of their workers is the question now.

[BrainGlutton]

But you are right. I have no right to force people to do or not do anything, no human has that right, which is something China seems to have forgotten.

Then we'll just have to beat it into them.

[humanafterall]

Then we'll just have to beat it into them.

No, we should use the combustible lemons.

[Vinyl Turnip]

You still here? I thought we told you to go to China.

[humanafterall]

You still here? I thought we told you to go to China.

And who are you to command me to go anywhere?

[Giles]

And who are you to command me to go anywhere?
And who are you to tell the Chinese people to start a civil war? At least if you go to China you are unlikely to be killed.

[LouisB]

No, we should use the combustible lemons.

Why lemons? Why not combustible rice?

[LouisB]

<SNIP></SNIP> NOTHING is going to EVER bring those jobs back to the US. They are gone for good, for better or worst. We have moved beyond manufacturing that requires large numbers of low skilled workers to accomplish repetitive tasks.

-XTThen we must simply eliminate by any means necessary any and all possible competition for jobs that do require large numbers of low skilled workers to accomplish repetitive tasks. Before that, though, we must eliminate automation in order to make those jobs available in the good old USA.

I have no recommendations as to how we will accomplish either of those solutions.

[Vinyl Turnip]

And who are you to command me to go anywhere?

I'm the Anti-Christ. You got me in a vendetta kind of mood...

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

humanafterall -- the last 2 times China had civil wars, the casualty rates rivaled those of World War 1.

Your suggestion is inexpressably vile.

Go home & re-think your life.

[humanafterall]

Hey, Moderator! I'm calling for a thread deletion, because this was not as well received as I'd hoped it would be, I also need you to delete my Pit thread, because it's just not working out either. I probably need to go take a few college classes in diplomacy and political science before I write something else stupid.

[straight man]

<deleted — iffy>

[humanafterall]

Oh I can be plenty compassionate, but I have problems with controlling my impulses and sometimes talk without thinking about it. It's just easier to say or do what's on your mind than it is to think about it. I don't really want the death of millions, but sometimes it's all about having the will to do what is necessary, even if it seems kind of wrong.

[elfkin477]

Alright, so now we have automation, but then what? Why aren't people getting the educations they need to fix the robots? Robots do break down, and invariably it's a human that fixes them. So why aren't we training more people to fix robots and other machinery? I'm trying to leap hurdles, here, people. Is it a money issue? If not, then what? If we were smart, we'd be hiring people to keep an eye on those damn robots to make sure they don't break the three laws.

In China the average wage is less than $4k/year (granted, that $4k is going to go further in China than in the US) while it's roughly $50k/year in the US. Also, a rather large percentage of the worlds goods and services flow through and into the US, while mostly goods flow out of China. So...you tell me which is the 'Golden Land of Opprtunity'. Do the math. ;)

-XT You used the wrong number for US wages - $50,000 is household income, not average per-person yearly wage. Median personal is half that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States). Unless you were implying that $4,000 is the average total household income in China.

[Der Trihs]

Hey, Moderator! I'm calling for a thread deletion, because this was not as well received as I'd hoped it would be, I also need you to delete my Pit thread, because it's just not working out either.They only delete the threads of spammers, not those of people who lose an argument.

[straight man]

Oh I can be plenty compassionate, but I have problems with controlling my impulses and sometimes talk without thinking about it. It's just easier to say or do what's on your mind than it is to think about it. I don't really want the death of millions, but sometimes it's all about having the will to do what is necessary, even if it seems kind of wrong.
Well, I don't think anybody is "doing" anything here — and the death of millions more than seems wrong, it is wrong! Compassion needs some discipline to it — you have to remember to practice it, even when it's tempting not to, and of course that does mean stopping and thinking sometimes. Anyway, good luck. :)

[Marley23]

I won't remove this thread, but since the OP is asking, I will close it.