The 13th floor: Ooh, I'm sooo scared!

[choosybeggar]

Anyone have the straight dope on the history of leaving a 13th story off tall buildings. In my building we go right from 12 to 14.

When did it start? What was the motive (Was it really harder to rent space on a 13th floor?)? I live in NYC. Is this as common elsewhere? Is this really silly practice ever going to be phased out?

[Ringo]

Is this really silly practice ever going to be phased out?

I can't give you much history, but I will note that, while I remember the missing thirteenth floor, I haven't seen such in a building younger than about ~40 years. So, yes, I think the practice has been phased out. Anybody remember a truly great band, The Thirteenth Floor Elevators?

[Ringo]

Now I'm curious (Oh, you knew you'd run into people like that around here); how old is your building?

[choosybeggar]

Now I'm curious (Oh, you knew you'd run into people like that around here); how old is your building?

Built in 1971. In Da Bronx.

Also, to clarify the OP, I'm not looking for a history of triskaidekaphobia, merely it's expression in modern architecture.

[choosybeggar]

Originally posted by choosybeggar
merely it's expression in modern architecture.


Make that its expression in modern archtecture.

[MEBuckner]

I can't give you much history, but I will note that, while I remember the missing thirteenth floor, I haven't seen such in a building younger than about ~40 years.
I've been in at least a couple of quite modern looking (less than 10 years old?) office buildings in Atlanta which lacked the Floor o'Doom. As an aside, it seems to me that not labeling the floor "13" would be more sinister to a thoughtful triskaidekaphobe--the floor which is labeled "14" is really the 13th floor {insert "Twilight Zone" .wav file here}. Yeah, you think everything's fine, you're really excited about your great new job working for Damien Industries, Suite 1400 of the brand new Brimstone Pointe office building...then you take a closer look at the buttons on the elevator....

[Arnold Winkelried]

The building in which I'm sitting right now is almost certainly less than 10 years old, and the 13th floor was skipped. I'll try to find out how old the building is.

[RickJay]

My building's only 10-12 years old. No 13th floor.

Maybe it's a Canadian thing, but I have never seen a thirteenth floor in any building, ever. Not one.

[AETBOND417]

Any Dopers here in/been to Asia? Either China or Japan will often exclude the 4th floor because of similar superstitious motives.

[IBBen]

...its only the 13th floor on a leap year...
:P

[Abe]

Well, Asia is a mighty big region! :D

However I have not noticed missing floors in Hong Kong, China, Thailand, Vietnam, Taiwan, etc.-- not to say that they don't ever skip the 13th floor in the region, but I have not noticed it.

Every building I have worked in in Hong Kong had a 13th floor, and people here are quite superstitious--perhaps it is a superstition that never caught on?

Over here they practice feng shui which is a "holistic" analysis of buildings and building sites, and which examines the harmony of buildings and their sites with nature, spirits, etc. I have no doubt that in some cases the 13th floor could be considered inappropriate, just as could any other floor...

Although the whole 13th floor deal is pretty ridiculous in this day and age, I think the equivalent happens all over the world. In Hong Kong, there is a building that stands in between a low mountain and the sea. Since the mountain was believed to be the home of a dragon, they actually built a massive apartment complex with a huge gaping hole in the middle, the reason being that the dragon would not have his passage to the sea obstructed. The hong Kong variation of the 13th floor!

[Sublight]

Originally posted by AETBOND417
Any Dopers here in/been to Asia? Either China or Japan will often exclude the 4th floor because of similar superstitious motives.
Maybe there are a few buildings in Japan that do, but I've never seen them. Every building I've lived in, worked in, or just taken a good look at while riding the elevator, has had a floor #4. While I wouldn't be surprised to find that somewhere in Japan some architect had skipped it because of superstition, it's not a general practice.

--sublight.

[MattTheCroc]

A tower we stayed at a few years ago in Thailand had no 13th floor; it was the first time I noticed the lack of it before, and I can't say I've ever seen one since... maybe Australia doesn't generally do it?

[Osakadave]

In Japanese, 4 (shi) is a homonym for death. 9 is also sometimes avoided, as a homonym for misery or pain. I know of a missing room 4, but not any missing floor 4s. My apartment building has a 4th floor. I live in room 505, and the neigboring rooms are 503 and 506. On the 4th floor there's 401, 402, 403, 405 on up to 411. I have heard floor 4 is skipped in hospitals, but haven't actually encountered one. The other main 4 superstition is with gifts - never give sets of 4.

[Ringo]

A quick report from the field; I have just now concluded a visit to the thirteenth floor of the building in which I work and it is labeled as such.

[OxyMoron]

I recently changed jobs from Newark to New York. In Newark I worked on the 13th Floor in a building completed ten years ago. I remember joking about it when I started there, and one of the partners told me that there was some controversy when the firm decided to lease the space. Now that I'm in New York, I work on the 14th Floor of a building that looks like it dates from about 1960 (butt-ugly white brick), and of course it's a renamed 13th floor.

My best friend lives on the "14th" floor of an apartment building from the same period. He used to work in real estate and said it was very common in NYC high-rises to skip the 13th floor.

Come to think of it, my first legal job, also in NYC, was in a 1920s building with no 13th floor. So it's a tradition with some lineage.

[Lamia]

I used to work in a building with 13 floors. The elevantor only went up to the 12th floor; if you wanted to reach the 13th (which was just a conference room and observation area) you had to take the stairs up from the 12th floor.

[xizor]

I remember watching one of the Faces of Death movies wherein someone was killed because of a missing 13th floor (that and his own stupidity). He measured the heighth of one floor and multiplied it by 18 to calculate the length of a bungee cord for a jump off the 18 story building.

[jsc1953]

Caesar's Tahoe is missing both the 13th floor and one other (probably 4th) in deference to its Asian customers. Covering all bad-omen bases for its superstitious clientele.

[choosybeggar]

Or Tomnddeb for that matter. I've done all the google and metacrawler searches I could think of, I checked out some architecture sites, and I hve nothing to show for my efforts. This is such a widespread and odd phenomenon, you'd think there'd be bucketloads written about it.

Now I'm really curious. I'm going to start emailing architecture professors to see if they know anything.

[John Bredin]

Another data point: The turn-of-the-century Daniel Burnham-designed office building where I work has a 13th floor. Of course, it may have been built without one and then renumbered at a later renovation, perhaps when automatic elevators were installed. But Burnham doesn't strike me as the superstitious type. :)

I don't recall where I heard it, but I recall that the 13th floor superstition is for hotels and apartment buildings, not office buildings. In other words, where people sleep, not just work. I know I can't think of an office building I've been in that skipped the 13th floor.

[OxyMoron]

Originally posted by John Bredin
I don't recall where I heard it, but I recall that the 13th floor superstition is for hotels and apartment buildings, not office buildings. In other words, where people sleep, not just work. I know I can't think of an office building I've been in that skipped the 13th floor.

Um, the two office buildings I've worked in here in NYC were both missing the 13th floor, and they were built about 40 years apart - and apparently the Newark firm I worked for, which did have a 13th floor, only chose the space over the objections of some of the partners. I think it's for all high-rises, residential or not.

[choosybeggar]

Hello, Dopers!!!

Anyone out there?

This could be one of the greatest conpsiracies of our time. Consider how widespread this phenomenon is. Consider how there's nothing written about the practice. Consider that I've emailed at least 10 associate profs in architecture from around the USA asking for information and have yet to receive a single reply (and this is despite the fact that I included a naked photo of myself frolicking amongst buttercups with every request).

So none of you can crack this, huh?

[The Devil's Grandmother]

It’s not just floors, I live in apartment “14” because my landlords (and apparently the management company) won’t put a number 13 on anything. I’ve worked in buildings in California with no 13th floor labeled as such. I thought it was normal.

[aseymayo]

Well, I don't think it's so much an architecture question as a who-is-doing-the-numbering-and-ordering-the-elevators question. An architect doesn't really care what you call it, a 20 story building is still going to have 20 stories, even if the top one is called "21."

I had a look at the Otis Elevator site (http://www.nao.otis.com/aboutotis/elevatorsinfo/0,1361,CLI1,00.html), figuring they might have an idea (since the development of high-rises and elevators went hand-in-hand), but I didn't find anything. Maybe they'd respond to one of those buttercup emails from choosybeggar?

[choosybeggar]

Thanks aseymayo, the OTIS corp is a good suggestion.

BTW, I wasn't thinking in terms of architects making the call, but instead that they might know an awful lot about buildings (and that they have a well documented liking of buttercups).

I'll get back to y'all with updates when they come. Until then, please keep the suggestions coming.

[Markxxx]

This drives me crazy. Every building over 14 floors HAS a 13th floor. As noted you can call it 14 but it is still the 13th floor. And thus STILL unlucky.

I worked in a hotel in Florida buildt in 1989. It has 13 floors only it went 1-12 and they labled the 13th floor the Penthouse floor.

[Powers106]

Is there such a thing as a building that has a 13th floor that has been left VACANT? I mean, where the actual floor exists but where it is not indicated in the elevator or building directories?

THAT would be interesting (and not just a little bit creepy...)

[Arnold Winkelried]

Originally posted by Markxxx
This drives me crazy. Every building over 14 floors HAS a 13th floor. As noted you can call it 14 but it is still the 13th floor. And thus STILL unlucky.

And how do you know what rules Lady Luck uses when she doles out blessings or misfortune? :confused:

[Gregor Samsa]

I've been in any number of buildings with no floor labelled "13." However, I've also been in some with a 13th floor. I've always assumed it was just a superstitious thing.

But what really kills me is that every airplane I've been on (when I've thought to check) has a row 13. Wouldn't people be more afraid of being in row 13 on a plane than on floor 13 of a building? I mean, if that sort of thing bothers you anyway...

All of which makes me think it started as a superstition but is now continued in the architecture world because it's just always been that way.

[Stupendous man]

It seems to be based on superstition. One web site I came across says that it originated from the number of disciples that attended the last supper.
I don't know if that is correct or not, but I also read that certain other cultures omit other floors in accordance with superstitious rot that permeates sensibilities whereever they might be at the time...

[Catfood Purrito]

Originally posted by Powers106
Is there such a thing as a building that has a 13th floor that has been left VACANT? I mean, where the actual floor exists but where it is not indicated in the elevator or building directories?

THAT would be interesting (and not just a little bit creepy...)

The building I work in, which has 23 floors, does have a 13th floor which is not accessible by elevator. It's not referred to in any directories, as far as I know, and I actually had no idea it existed until I commented on the silly superstition about calling the 13th floor the 14th, and someone informed me that there is indeed a 13. It's used for storage, there are no offices there.

[MEBuckner]

It's used for storage
Yeah, that's what they tell you, anyway.

Storage of lost, tormented souls is probably more like it.

[MEBuckner]

Here's an article which discusses the question in a little more depth:

13 superstition sways designations of "missing" high-rise floors (http://www.naplesnews.com/today/restate/a120401k.htm)

The architects seem to blame it on the elevator companies, and the elevator companies blame it on the consumers:
"As an American superstition, it has gone into the fabric of society," said Paul Drummond, the project manager for Aruba, the first of the Cove Towers being developed by WCI Communities at Tarpon Cove Yacht and Racquet Club, North Naples. "It is a conspiracy of the elevator people. When you order an elevator control panel, they won't put a number 13 button on it."

"Actually," said [Dwight] Thomas [WCI Communities project manager for The Windsor tower in Bay Colony], "the elevator company will put any numbers on a panel we request. Their product brochure, however, always leaves out the 13th floor."

"We always skip the number 13," said Todd Zimmerman, the sales manager for Montgomery KONE, one of the largest manufacturers and installers of commercial and residential elevators in North America. "It is consumer driven. If we ever put it on detailed drawings, architects and developers always cross it out. No one ever wants it, particularly in residential buildings. Sometimes you will see a 13th floor in office buildings, but even that is rare."

[Jeffro]

Not only does my building have a thirteenth floor, I work on it! Of course it's a government building so maybe that explains it.

[xash]

well...a few bldgs. away from mine is a building that HAS NO THIRTEENTH FLOOR and by that i mean...u walk up from the 12th...u reach a flat open space much like the terrace...only it's got beams running up to the 14th...and the bldg. continues as normal upto the 20th. so the 13th is totally wasted...in an area where space costs $1000 per square foot!

[dangermom]

Wow. I had heard about this, but I've never seen a building without a 13th floor, and I thought it was rare and old-fashioned. I'm stunned.

Carry on...

[Wicked Blue]

I just went to Las Vegas, and was kind of surprised when I checked in at the hotel and was told my room was on the 13th floor. I also noticed the room numbers on my floor all started with 13. I was surprised because I figured in a place like Vegas, where people try to be 'lucky', the hotel would have skipped 13. I'm not superstitious, but I guess I always assumed big buildings never had a 13th floor. I don't think I have ever seen one before.
Something else I noticed was that the Las Vegas airport did not have a Gate 13, but I did get to sit in Row 13 on the plane.
So, to sum up, the Las Vegas Excalibur hotel does indeed have a 13th floor, the airport does not have a Gate 13, and you can sit in the 13th row on a SouthWest 737.

Rose

[choosybeggar]

MEBuckner,

Thanks for the cite. I couldn't find a thing. Nada.

My take on the article is that there aren't 13th floors because it's the easy way to go. A perception exists that it may be harder to lease space on a thirteenth floor (and I'm sure data exist to substantiate this position :rolleyes: ). Since one loses little by omitting floor 13, it's history in most buildings.

And there's little recourse for those of us that find the practice bothersome. It's such an eensy weensy issue. Why would anyone waste their precious time fighting such a trend? But I, for one, would enjoy life at least an eensy, weensy bit more if this unholy incarnation of ignorance died slowly and painfully.

[sturmhauke]

I know there are a lot of buildings all over the Bay Area that call the 13th floor either 14 or 12b. Also, the Oakland Airport has no Gate 13. 14, 15, and 16 are also missing. I guess you can never be too sure...

If you go to Dwinelle Hall on UC Berkeley campus, there is a lot of numerical weirdness there too. The rooms are numbered in an apparently random fashion, causing mass confusion with the students.

[Chronos]

Hey, you want to talk superstitious? The building I work in, not only doesn't have a thirteenth floor, it doesn't even have anything within nine floors of it! One, two, three, and then it just stops!

[AWB]

I actually work on the 13th floor, in room 1334.

To show others' superstition: I once pointed out to my officemate that one of our windows was the fire window, to be knocked out if we couldn't reach a fire escape, then jumped out of.

"But we're on the 13th floor," he complained.

"During a building fire is no time to be superstitious," I replied. :rolleyes:

[jsc1953]

Originally posted by sturmhauke

If you go to Dwinelle Hall on UC Berkeley campus, there is a lot of numerical weirdness there too. The rooms are numbered in an apparently random fashion, causing mass confusion with the students.

Yeah, but that's not superstition, that's just architectural weirdness. Dwinelle looks like two buildings with two different numbering schemes stuck together--there's even a 6 inch rise in the hallway as you cross the seams (as I recall; been a while since I've been there).

[aseymayo]

And the word from Otis is…

…they don’t know, either. I got a very nice email from Michele Aldrich, an archivist at Otis, and she said: I regret to say that Otis company sales records for the 1880s and 1890s do not gave enough detail for me to answer which customer first required for no 13 button on the control panel. The original contracts are not in our collections, just a one-line list in a ledger book.

She went on to say she understood the practice of omitting the 13th floor was disappearing because firefighters hate it – if they have a report of a fire on the 15th floor, they want to be able to count floors from the outside and get it right.

I also asked if Mr. Otis himself could have started the tradition, but she assured me it can’t be laid at his floor, er, door; Mr. Otis died in 1861 – about twenty years before the first skyscrapers went up.

Ms. Aldrich recommended taking our question to either the Skyscraper Museum of New York City (http://www.skyscraper.org) or the Council on Tall Buildings (http://www.ctbuh.org/). (She also said the Skyscraper Museum has a better sense of humor.)

Any of our New Yawkers care to take this up to the next level and drop by the SMNYC?

[Fiver]

The North Avenue Tower of the Atlanta beverage company where I work has a thirteenth floor, but it's not accessible from the standard employee elevators. Those elevators go "...11, 12, 14, 15..." and if climbing the stairs, you'll go from 12 to 14 with an extra landing, but no exit door, in between them.

The service elevators are the only way to get to 13. It's a maintenance/storage floor, near as I can tell (I was never curious enough to go onto it).