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eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 06:25 PM
It's a shame we can't do a better job of securing our borders. I live in Mission Viejo Ca. about 60 miles north of the border of Tijuana Mexico. When I venture out into the city Im starting tio see these poor Mexican woman pushing their strollers down the street and across intersections with 3-5 toddlers running beside her. Or an old Mexican man wearing a sombrero and pancho selling corn on a stick out of an old rickety vending cart. Say what you will, I just don't want to see it. Im sickand tied of paying their labor and delivery bills. "Here I am . Take care of me..I made it so now you have to feed and cloth me. Oh, I need health are too". Something's very wrong here. What are we going to do about it?

Mosier
07-26-2011, 06:27 PM
I have a feeling you're not going to fit in too well, here.

Johnny L.A.
07-26-2011, 06:33 PM
I have a feeling you're not going to fit in too well, here.

Well, he is from Mission Viejo.

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 06:36 PM
I have a feeling you're not going to fit in too well, here. Yeah, You're probably right.

Laggard
07-26-2011, 06:37 PM
OP likely takes advantage every day of their cheap labor.

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 06:37 PM
Well, he is from Mission Viejo.

Gee let me quess, you're from LA? A transplant?

Johnny L.A.
07-26-2011, 06:38 PM
A native. But I no longer live there.

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 06:49 PM
If one enters legally, more power to you, live the american dream. Enter illegally, I have a problem with paying your bills. C'mon enough is enough.

Dr. Drake
07-26-2011, 06:57 PM
So how do you know the people you see entered illegally? Being poor is not exactly evidence of having crossed a border, much less snuck across.

Implicit
07-26-2011, 07:03 PM
You know what you should do? Sneak into Mexico and make them pay your bills, that'll show 'em.

Chefguy
07-26-2011, 07:04 PM
It's a shame we can't do a better job of securing our borders. I live in Mission Viejo Ca. about 60 miles north of the border of Tijuana Mexico. When I venture out into the city Im starting tio see these poor Mexican woman pushing their strollers down the street and across intersections with 3-5 toddlers running beside her. Or an old Mexican man wearing a sombrero and pancho selling corn on a stick out of an old rickety vending cart. Say what you will, I just don't want to see it. Im sickand tied of paying their labor and delivery bills. "Here I am . Take care of me..I made it so now you have to feed and cloth me. Oh, I need health are too". Something's very wrong here. What are we going to do about it?

On the other hand, the Hispanic people I see here seem to work hard for a buck, just like anybody else. They take the hard labor jobs that "real" Americans don't want to do, and they take less money to do them in order to pay the bills. There is a bad element, and they fit right in with the American, Russian, African, and Asian bad elements. Ethnicity is no criteria for assholery.

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 07:32 PM
The US Border Patrol is overwhelmed. They're working hard and are getting better and better securing our borders. Eventually we'll inact tougher laws and the physical borders will become air tight. But in the meantime, we have to budget millions toward this problem. Millions, possibly billions we need for schools and infrastructure.
Eh, so they're hard working wonderful people. We know that. This is not the issue. All these, now very precious resourses, allocated for ILLEGAL Immigrants. The key word is illegal.
Americans are and will take the jobs that were once undesired

Mosier
07-26-2011, 07:45 PM
The US Border Patrol is overwhelmed. They're working hard and are getting better and better securing our borders. Eventually we'll inact tougher laws and the physical borders will become air tight. But in the meantime, we have to budget millions toward this problem. Millions, possibly billions we need for schools and infrastructure.
Eh, so they're hard working wonderful people. We know that. This is not the issue. All these, now very precious resourses, allocated for ILLEGAL Immigrants. The key word is illegal.
Americans are and will take the jobs that were once undesired

Yeah, because the one sure way to destroy a nation is to give it lots and lots of cheap labor.

Johnny L.A.
07-26-2011, 07:47 PM
Yeah, because the one sure way to destroy a nation is to give it lots and lots of cheap labor.

Cheap labour that pays taxes and takes little or nothing in return.

Kolga
07-26-2011, 07:48 PM
Yes, yes, the entire country of America is going down the drain because of the immigration of people who don't look like you. Just like it went down the drain during every other wave of immigration in the history of its existence.

Chefguy
07-26-2011, 07:52 PM
The US Border Patrol is overwhelmed. They're working hard and are getting better and better securing our borders. Eventually we'll inact tougher laws and the physical borders will become air tight. But in the meantime, we have to budget millions toward this problem. Millions, possibly billions we need for schools and infrastructure.
Eh, so they're hard working wonderful people. We know that. This is not the issue. All these, now very precious resourses, allocated for ILLEGAL Immigrants. The key word is illegal.
Americans are and will take the jobs that were once undesired

I doubt that there is anybody who disagrees that immigration reform is necessary. Do you actually have a suggestion, or is this just bellyaching?

Bartman
07-26-2011, 07:54 PM
I understand your position eddiec3434. Frankly I think we need to have a significant overhaul of immigration in this country. But I was wondering if you have a source for this claim?
But in the meantime, we have to budget millions toward this problem. Millions, possibly billions we need for schools and infrastructure.
It is my understanding that on the whole, illegal immigrants add more to governmental coffers via taxes than they take out in various benefits. In other words they don't cost millions, they bring in millions.

Colophon
07-26-2011, 08:08 PM
If one enters legally, more power to you, live the american dream. Enter illegally, I have a problem with paying your bills. C'mon enough is enough.
And these poor women you see pushing strollers, where do they place the ILLEGAL stamp nowadays? Is it still on the forehead or do you have to check under their skirts?

Lukeinva
07-26-2011, 08:19 PM
Except for Native Americans everybody else in this country originally came from some other country.

Everybody.

Think about that.

I'm Scottish, Lithuanian, French. What about you?

fluiddruid
07-26-2011, 08:24 PM
A brave stance, OP. I for one am not afraid to say it: old Mexican men selling corn-on-a-stick, GO HOME!

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 08:28 PM
Yes, yes, the entire country of America is going down the drain because of the immigration of people who don't look like you. Just like it went down the drain during every other wave of immigration in the history of its existence.uhhhh, yeah ok dude. How do you know what I look like. Hmmmm The whole county of America? It's not a moral issue dude. It's a matter of law, fact and principle.

Johnny L.A.
07-26-2011, 08:31 PM
A brave stance, OP. I for one am not afraid to say it: old Mexican men selling corn-on-a-stick, GO HOME!

If he goes home, where will we get our corn onna stick? Think about that, smart guy!

Kolga
07-26-2011, 08:32 PM
uhhhh, yeah ok dude. How do you know what I look like. Hmmmm The whole county of America? It's not a moral issue dude. It's a matter of law, fact and principle.

Dudette, actually. And interestingly, your OP doesn't focus as much on law, fact, and principle as with the ethnicity of the supposed "illegal immigrants" you claim to notice, complete with racial (some would say racist) stereotypes.

Of course, the question is - how do you know they're illegal? Do they tattoo immigration status on you during the legal immigration process to separate out the desirables from the undesirables?

And lukeinva has a point.

mhendo
07-26-2011, 08:33 PM
It is my understanding that on the whole, illegal immigrants add more to governmental coffers via taxes than they take out in various benefits. In other words they don't cost millions, they bring in millions.
This is true. But it's also not the whole story.

The problem, as author Peter Schrag notes in his book California: America's High-Stakes Experiment (http://www.amazon.com/California-High-Stakes-Experiment-Peter-Schrag/dp/0520244362), is that there is considerable imbalance in the ways in which the taxes are paid versus the ways in which the benefits are collected.

Most illegal immigrants pay taxes that are collected at the state and federal level, particularly things like sales tax and income and payroll taxes. On the other hand, a lot of the public services used by illegal immigrants are provided at the local level—things like schools, hospital emergency rooms, etc., etc.

What this leads to is a situation in which a relatively small part of the American population bears a disproportionate burden in providing services to these immigrants, without receiving any benefit from the taxes that the immigrants pay at the state and federal level. There are, for example, many towns in California's central valley where the school systems are staggering under the weight of illegal immigrant children, without ever getting any of the sales tax or income and payroll taxes paid by those children's parents.

Illegal immigrants might be a net gain for the American economy, but they are also, in many cases, a net drain for particular communities, especially some of the communities where the illegals actually spend most of their time.

Of course, none of this means that the OP knows what the hell he's talking about, but there is some kernel of truth to be found in his rather silly arguments.

One area where he (unsurprisingly) only has half the story is the issue of border control. He says:The US Border Patrol is overwhelmed. They're working hard and are getting better and better securing our borders. Eventually we'll inact tougher laws and the physical borders will become air tight. Well, one of the problems that has emerged in the last couple of decades is precisely that the border has become more secure. Now, this might sound like a good thing if you want to reduce the number of illegals, but that has not been the net effect.

A big part of the history of cross-border migration between Mexico and the United States has been its cyclical nature. In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, Mexican workers would come to the US when they were needed by American employers, and at the end of the season (harvest, etc.) they would return to Mexico with money to inject into their own economy. The Bracero program of the 1940s to the 1960s formalized this procedure, allowing Mexican workers in when demand was high, and sending them back when the work was done. And even after the Bracero program ended, many illegal immigrants would make a habit of crossing the border twice a year, coming to America during times of high demand, and then returning to Mexico until the following year.

Now that the border is much more secure, and crossing has become a more expensive and more dangerous undertaking, Mexicans who manage to get into the US are far less likely to take a chance on returning home. Instead of a porous border with illegals crossing in both directions, we now have a (tighter) valve situation, where (voluntary) traffic is only in one direction, and those who make the journey successfully are unlikely ever to leave.

I'm not arguing that the border shouldn't be patrolled, and nor do i pretend to have all the answers (or any real answers, for that matter). But this whole issue is far more complex than people like the OP seem to understand. Such people think that banal slogans and platitudes are sufficient to make their case, but all they do is demonstrate how much ignorance there is on this issue.

SnakesCatLady
07-26-2011, 08:33 PM
On the other hand, the Hispanic people I see here seem to work hard for a buck, just like anybody else. They take the hard labor jobs that "real" Americans don't want to do, and they take less money to do them in order to pay the bills. There is a bad element, and they fit right in with the American, Russian, African, and Asian bad elements. Ethnicity is no criteria for assholery.

Don't want to do my wide white ass. Come to Georgia and talk to some of the guys in the building industy who can't find work. Yes, the Mexicans will work for very little - and live 10 to an apartment. Is that what you want for this country?

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 08:42 PM
I doubt that there is anybody who disagrees that immigration reform is necessary. Do you actually have a suggestion, or is this just bellyaching?We spend billions on people who enter illegally. I can make suggestions all day long. Here's one. I challenge those who sympathize with an illegal immigrant(s), to adopt or sponsor one, or perhaps a family. How's that? Will that work for anyone? C'mon people stand up for your beliefs. Adopt and alien. They're hard working people right?

DON'T TRY TO MAKE IT A RACIAL ISSUE

Kolga
07-26-2011, 08:45 PM
DON'T TRY TO MAKE IT A RACIAL ISSUE

Dude, YOU made it a racial issue in your OP, which talked about Mexicans in sombreros and ponchos.

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 08:46 PM
Ok I thought about it. Now what? Did something change?

Did all those people enter illegally?

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 08:56 PM
This is true. But it's also not the whole story.

The problem, as author Peter Schrag notes in his book California: America's High-Stakes Experiment (http://www.amazon.com/California-High-Stakes-Experiment-Peter-Schrag/dp/0520244362), is that there is considerable imbalance in the ways in which the taxes are paid versus the ways in which the benefits are collected.

Most illegal immigrants pay taxes that are collected at the state and federal level, particularly things like sales tax and income and payroll taxes. On the other hand, a lot of the public services used by illegal immigrants are provided at the local level—things like schools, hospital emergency rooms, etc., etc.

What this leads to is a situation in which a relatively small part of the American population bears a disproportionate burden in providing services to these immigrants, without receiving any benefit from the taxes that the immigrants pay at the state and federal level. There are, for example, many towns in California's central valley where the school systems are staggering under the weight of illegal immigrant children, without ever getting any of the sales tax or income and payroll taxes paid by those children's parents.

Illegal immigrants might be a net gain for the American economy, but they are also, in many cases, a net drain for particular communities, especially some of the communities where the illegals actually spend most of their time.

Of course, none of this means that the OP knows what the hell he's talking about, but there is some kernel of truth to be found in his rather silly arguments.

One area where he (unsurprisingly) only has half the story is the issue of border control. He says:Well, one of the problems that has emerged in the last couple of decades is precisely that the border has become more secure. Now, this might sound like a good thing if you want to reduce the number of illegals, but that has not been the net effect.

A big part of the history of cross-border migration between Mexico and the United States has been its cyclical nature. In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, Mexican workers would come to the US when they were needed by American employers, and at the end of the season (harvest, etc.) they would return to Mexico with money to inject into their own economy. The Bracero program of the 1940s to the 1960s formalized this procedure, allowing Mexican workers in when demand was high, and sending them back when the work was done. And even after the Bracero program ended, many illegal immigrants would make a habit of crossing the border twice a year, coming to America during times of high demand, and then returning to Mexico until the following year.

Now that the border is much more secure, and crossing has become a more expensive and more dangerous undertaking, Mexicans who manage to get into the US are far less likely to take a chance on returning home. Instead of a porous border with illegals crossing in both directions, we now have a (tighter) valve situation, where (voluntary) traffic is only in one direction, and those who make the journey successfully are unlikely ever to leave.

I'm not arguing that the border shouldn't be patrolled, and nor do i pretend to have all the answers (or any real answers, for that matter). But this whole issue is far more complex than people like the OP seem to understand. Such people think that banal slogans and platitudes are sufficient to make their case, but all they do is demonstrate how much ignorance there is on this issue.
Im certainly impressed with all the knowledge, the insightful story and big educated words. I'll bet the farm you don't live in L.A, do ya. Help this ignorant Californian understand the complexities. I live in it dude. I simply state that we have a problem here that affects the "American" way of life. Does it affect your life professor?

Bartman
07-26-2011, 09:00 PM
Illegal immigrants might be a net gain for the American economy, but they are also, in many cases, a net drain for particular communities, especially some of the communities where the illegals actually spend most of their time.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I hadn't thought about the local effects. I'll have to check out Schrag's book.

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 09:00 PM
A brave stance, OP. I for one am not afraid to say it: old Mexican men selling corn-on-a-stick, GO HOME!

Thank you for the brave stance.

Kolga
07-26-2011, 09:04 PM
Im certainly impressed with all the knowledge, the insightful story and big educated words. I'll bet the farm you don't live in L.A, do ya. Help this ignorant Californian understand the complexities. I live in it dude. I simply state that we have a problem here that affects the "American" way of life. Does it affect your life professor?

He posted a long, insightful, well-evidenced attempt to help you understand the complexities, and this is your response?

You don't want to "understand the complexities." You just thought you could come here and rant unchallenged about all the damn Mexicans that are insulting you by breathing your Orange County air.

Every post like mhendo's that contains actual information that's not black and white is going to be dismissed out of hand by you, isn't it?

And NICE anti-intellectual insult at the end - way to hit the trifecta!

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 09:06 PM
Dude, YOU made it a racial issue in your OP, which talked about Mexicans in sombreros and ponchos.

That's what you call an observation genious. You got something against sombreros and panchos? Hell, I like corn on a stick. I just don't appriciate it when sold on a street corner. I can make that at home

mhendo
07-26-2011, 09:06 PM
Im certainly impressed with all the knowledge, the insightful story and big educated words. I'll bet the farm you don't live in L.A, do ya.No, i live in San Diego.

The issue of Mexican immigration is completely irrelevant to my life. :rolleyes: Help this ignorant Californian understand the complexities. I live in it dude. I simply state that we have a problem here that affects the "American" way of life. Does it affect your life professor?Well, recognizing your own ignorance is a step in the right direction.

You did NOT "simply state that we have a problem."

I think that just about everyone in the United States realizes that the issue of illegal immigration is a problem. And i firmly believe that it affects everyone's life, particularly those who live in areas with large numbers of illegal immigrants.

But the solution is not simply to go off on half-assed anti-Mexican rants. It just makes you look like you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Kolga
07-26-2011, 09:08 PM
That's what you call an observation genious. You got something against sombreros and panchos?

An observation of racial aspects of appearances, which you commented on, which makes your OP incorporate a racial aspect to your rant.

And it's genius.

eddiec3434
07-26-2011, 09:38 PM
No, i live in San Diego.

The issue of Mexican immigration is completely irrelevant to my life. :rolleyes:Well, recognizing your own ignorance is a step in the right direction.

You did NOT "simply state that we have a problem."

I think that just about everyone in the United States realizes that the issue of illegal immigration is a problem. And i firmly believe that it affects everyone's life, particularly those who live in areas with large numbers of illegal immigrants.

But the solution is not simply to go off on half-assed anti-Mexican rants. It just makes you look like you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Well professor, I don't know what you mean by a half ass anti-mexican rant. Let's simplify this very complex discussion. You must always be on the offensive mhendo. You're conditioned you yell "racism" whem you can't offer a solution to this problem. Ok let's review, I asserted that people entering our country are #1 breaking the law and #2 very expensive and finally #3 intruding on the American way of life. Sorry for sticking up for my country mhendo. I'll try to do better next thread,

Implicit
07-26-2011, 09:47 PM
Ok let's review, I asserted that people entering our country are #1 breaking the law and #2 very expensive and finally #3 intruding on the American way of life. Sorry for sticking up for my country mhendo. I'll try to do better next thread,
Prove that the people you mentioned in your post have broken the law (entered the country illegally). Prove that illegal immigrants are very expensive (costs outweigh the benefits). Prove that they are intruding on the American way of life (whatever that is). Do even one of those and maybe someone will take you seriously, until then you are venting your spleen on a message board and not worth listening to.

twickster
07-26-2011, 09:59 PM
I'm going to close this trainwreck.

eddiec3434, if you want to try again, do so in Great Debates. In that forum, like this one, personal insults are against the rules.

twickster, MPSIMS moderator

Rushgeekgirl
07-26-2011, 10:00 PM
We spend billions on people who enter illegally. I can make suggestions all day long. Here's one. I challenge those who sympathize with an illegal immigrant(s), to adopt or sponsor one, or perhaps a family. How's that? Will that work for anyone? C'mon people stand up for your beliefs. Adopt and alien. They're hard working people right?

DON'T TRY TO MAKE IT A RACIAL ISSUE

Heh. How about if I make a baby with one? Will it be okay to sympathize with their plight then?