What would happen if we broke the land link between the Americas?

[Darth Ayebaw]

Say we evacuate Panama and lob a couple hundred nukes to blast away the land between the Atlantic and Pacific. What would the effects be? Would one flow into the other? How would the currents change? Do we have any geological records from the last time they were separated to get some idea? Alternatively, if we took all the soil and hauled it over to make a land bridge between Africa and Europe, how long would it take the Mediterranean to dry?

[Der Trihs]

Say we evacuate Panama and lob a couple hundred nukes to blast away the land between the Atlantic and Pacific. What would the effects be? I recall that Cecil did a small column on that a long time ago; here (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1091/if-the-locks-on-the-panama-canal-were-blown-would-one-ocean-pour-into-the-other).

[Darth Ayebaw]

Thanks. Would the Pacific flow into the Atlantic indefinitely, or would there be some balance in the future? Also, in terms of the species mingling, are there any good specific hypothetical examples?

[clairobscur]

Alternatively, if we took all the soil and hauled it over to make a land bridge between Africa and Europe, how long would it take the Mediterranean to dry?

I'm not sure the Mediterranean Sea would dry. There are numerous large rivers bringing in water (including the Nile). Even if the inflow isn't sufficient to keep the water level stable (or even raise, I don't know if currently the Mediterranean flows out in the Atlantic or the other way around), it wouldn't dry completely in any case.

[Floater]

At one point there was a land bridge between Africa and Europe and the Mediterranean did really go dry, so why wouldn't it happen again?

[Charleythejanitor]

I'm sure that the price of gas would go up,but other than that,It shouldn't create any problems what so ever!

[Colophon]

A man, a plan, a con. TNT! No canal! Panama :(

[Diceman]

I'm not sure the Mediterranean Sea would dry. There are numerous large rivers bringing in water (including the Nile). Even if the inflow isn't sufficient to keep the water level stable (or even raise, I don't know if currently the Mediterranean flows out in the Atlantic or the other way around), it wouldn't dry completely in any case.
From what I've read, the flow is from the Atlantic into the Mediterranean.

[Colophon]

From what I've read, the flow is from the Atlantic into the Mediterranean.
The Med is saltier than the Atlantic, so that makes sense.

[MarcusF]

I'm not sure the Mediterranean Sea would dry. There are numerous large rivers bringing in water (including the Nile). Even if the inflow isn't sufficient to keep the water level stable (or even raise, I don't know if currently the Mediterranean flows out in the Atlantic or the other way around), it wouldn't dry completely in any case.It actually flows both ways - surface water in, deep water out but the net flow is from the Atlantic to the Med. Surface evaporation actually takes out more water than flows in from the various rivers - the Med is actually saltier than the Atlantic - and it is kept topped up by the flow from the Atlantic.

[DrFidelius]

So the Mediterranean basin would be mostly dry, with some fairly large briney lakes where the major rivers enter it.

[Little Nemo]

I once read a SF story that used this idea (except they had an earthquake destroying Central America instead of nuclear explosions). In the story, the gap diverted the Gulf Stream. The absence of that warm water caused temperatures in Western Europe to significantly drop.

[LSLGuy]

A man, a plan, a con. TNT! No canal! Panama :(Golf clap....

[Laggard]

Clearly South America would float away.

[JKellyMap]

A man, a plan, a con. TNT! No canal! Panama :(

Whaddya mean, "golf clap"? That was brilliant! Hearty cheer!

[njtt]

I am afraid I do not have a cite for this,* but I am pretty sure that I have read that the original formation of the Central American land bridge (which I believe was largely due to volcanic activity, and so relatively fast by geological standards) had a really major effect on the Earth's climate. IIRC it played a large part in precipitating the current series of ice ages (i.e. the pleistocene glaciation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_glaciation), which is still currently in progress, although we, and the whole of recorded human history, are actually in an interglacial period within the the Pleistocene ice age).

That being so, I think it is pretty certain that a sudden removal of the land bridge would also have a huge effect on climate, probably precipitating a new geological era, with mass extinctions and new dominant life forms evolving.

*Actually the Wiki page on the pleistocene/quarternary glaciation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_glaciation) does mention it briefly.

[mlees]

The Altlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans already connect, in the southern hemisphere. Why would the Med dry up?

[DrFidelius]

The Altlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans already connect, in the southern hemisphere. Why would the Med dry up?

Tha Med is drying up because we took all the debris from the isthmus of Panama and filled in the Straits of Gibralter with it. It's in the OP.

[mlees]

Tha Med is drying up because we took all the debris from the isthmus of Panama and filled in the Straits of Gibralter with it. It's in the OP.

:smack: Sorry. I obviously read through the OP too quickly.

[Colibri]

I am afraid I do not have a cite for this,* but I am pretty sure that I have read that the original formation of the Central American land bridge (which I believe was largely due to volcanic activity, and so relatively fast by geological standards) had a really major effect on the Earth's climate. IIRC it played a large part in precipitating the current series of ice ages (i.e. the pleistocene glaciation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_glaciation), which is still currently in progress, although we, and the whole of recorded human history, are actually in an interglacial period within the the Pleistocene ice age).

This is a pretty well known theory, and is widely accepted. At one time there was a wide water gap between North and South America, with full circulation of water between the Atlantic and Pacific. The continents gradually began drifting closer to one another, starting about 20 million years ago. The final closure of the Isthmus of Panama was about 3-4 million years ago. Once the flow of water between the oceans ceased, the Gulf Stream strengthened and the current pattern of thermohaline circulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation), or oceanic conveyor belt. This is believed to have helped trigger glaciation cycles in the northern hemisphere. Removal of the Central American isthmus would unquestionably have very significant effects on global climate.

(However, this idea is not universally accepted. I saw a seminar just last week in which a researcher proposed that the Ice Ages were actually triggered when New Guinea and Australia drifted north far enought to restrict oceanic circulation through Indonesia, changing sea-surface conditions across the Pacific.)

[Darth Ayebaw]

Thanks for all the input everyone.

Tha Med is drying up because we took all the debris from the isthmus of Panama and filled in the Straits of Gibralter with it. It's in the OP.

On another note, would this actually work? Assuming cost is no issue, is there actually enough material in Panama to do it?

Also I still haven't seen a figure for how long it would take the Med to dry. It's dried and refilled at least several times in the past, I assume that would give some indication.

[Duckster]

(However, this idea is not universally accepted. I saw a seminar just last week in which a researcher proposed that the Ice Ages were actually triggered when New Guinea and Australia drifted north far enought to restrict oceanic circulation through Indonesia, changing sea-surface conditions across the Pacific.)

So the Aussies are to blame, eh? They're not going to like that, mate.

[Fear Itself]

I'm not sure the Mediterranean Sea would dry. There are numerous large rivers bringing in water (including the Nile). Even if the inflow isn't sufficient to keep the water level stable (or even raise, I don't know if currently the Mediterranean flows out in the Atlantic or the other way around), it wouldn't dry completely in any case.Yeah, it would, because it already happened only 6 million years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messinian_salinity_crisis):Sediment samples from below the deep seafloor of the Mediterranean Sea, which include evaporite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporite) minerals, soils, and fossil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil) plants, show that about 5.96 million years ago in the late Miocene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miocene) period the precursor of the Strait of Gibraltar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Gibraltar) closed tight, and the Mediterranean Sea, for the first time and then repeatedly, partially desiccated. 5.6 Ma ago the strait closed one last, final time, and because of the generally dry climate conditions, within a millennium the Mediterranean basin nearly completely desiccated, evaporating into a deep dry basin bottoming at some places 3 to 5 km below the world ocean level, with a few hypersaline Dead-Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea)-like pockets. Around 5.5 Ma less dry climatic conditions allowed the basin to resume receiving more fresh water from rivers, with pockets of Caspian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea)-like brackish waters getting progressively less hyper-saline, until the final reopening of the Strait of Gibraltar 5.33 Ma with the Zanclean flooding.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messinian_salinity_crisis#cite_note-Clauzon1996-4)

[Colibri]

On another note, would this actually work? Assuming cost is no issue, is there actually enough material in Panama to do it?.

Easily, especially if all you want to do is build a dike across it. The Strait of Gibraltar is less than 10 miles across, while Panama is 50 miles across at its narrowest point. The shallowest point is only about 1000 ft deep, while the highest peak in Panama is over 11,000 feet. So there's enough material in Panama to fill up the Strait of Gibraltar many times over, even when you just consider the part of Panama above sea level.

[Andy L]

Yeah, it would, because it already happened only 6 million years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messinian_salinity_crisis):

Harry Turtledove wrote a story ("Down in the Bottomlands") in which the Mediterranean remained dry to the present-day (existing as a huge "Death Valley"-like area with a few very salty seas, and unique lifeforms).

Julian May has a novel in which the opening of the straits is an important plot point.

[Darth Ayebaw]

I myself only brought it up and knew of it because it's also featured in Stephen Baxter's novel Evolution.

[Leo Bloom]

A man, a plan, a con. TNT! No canal! Panama :(

:D Excellent.

BTW, what does "golf clap" mean? I've seen lt all over this board....I wanna be part of the in crowd too, y'know.

[Malacandra]

I once read a SF story that used this idea (except they had an earthquake destroying Central America instead of nuclear explosions). In the story, the gap diverted the Gulf Stream. The absence of that warm water caused temperatures in Western Europe to significantly drop.

I read that... has to have been 1984 or earlier as I remember where I was living at the time. That was "seriously drop" as in "Britain becomes marginally habitable, to the extent of begging the USA to take in millions of refugees". Then the States sorted it out with a big-ass dam to fill in the gap and restore the Gulf Stream, but kept a fleet of bombers on standby in case the dam should need blowing up again - so those pesky Euros would know to play nice, you hear me? I forget who wrote it.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

A man, a plan, a con. TNT! No canal! Panama :(

If Nukes, then: "A man, a plan, no TNT, and no Panama, either!"

[Colophon]

I read that... has to have been 1984 or earlier as I remember where I was living at the time. That was "seriously drop" as in "Britain becomes marginally habitable, to the extent of begging the USA to take in millions of refugees". Then the States sorted it out with a big-ass dam to fill in the gap and restore the Gulf Stream, but kept a fleet of bombers on standby in case the dam should need blowing up again - so those pesky Euros would know to play nice, you hear me? I forget who wrote it.
Even if there was no Gulf Stream, why would Britain become "marginally habitable"? Canadians seem to manage OK with a city of a million-plus (Edmonton) at a similar latitude to northern England. And even without the Gulf Stream, the Atlantic would modify the climate to some extent so it should be less harsh than the continental extremes.

[Sailboat]

I read that... has to have been 1984 or earlier as I remember where I was living at the time. That was "seriously drop" as in "Britain becomes marginally habitable, to the extent of begging the USA to take in millions of refugees".

Hasn't Britain already sent "millions of refugees" to North America? And I've heard plenty of complaints about the habitability of the English climate. ;)

[Colophon]

And I've heard plenty of complaints about the habitability of the English climate. ;)
Allow me to direct you to this thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=617782). Thankfully, the scary realm below 0ºF remains unknown to most Brits. It may not always be pleasant, but at least we rarely risk death by flash-freezing if the door locks behind us. :)

[CalMeacham]

I read that... has to have been 1984 or earlier as I remember where I was living at the time. That was "seriously drop" as in "Britain becomes marginally habitable, to the extent of begging the USA to take in millions of refugees". Then the States sorted it out with a big-ass dam to fill in the gap and restore the Gulf Stream, but kept a fleet of bombers on standby in case the dam should need blowing up again - so those pesky Euros would know to play nice, you hear me? I forget who wrote it.

Much earlier. IIRC, it was from the 1940s (It mentioned the "Ring of Fire", but was unaware of Continental Drift). Can't recall who wrote it, though.

[SCSimmons]

BTW, what does "golf clap" mean? I've seen lt all over this board....I wanna be part of the in crowd too, y'know.
Common internet meme. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=golf+clap&l=1)

[Snickers]

Didn't "golf clap" start in TV, though? I seem to remember it figuring in a SNL sketch or something. It's referring to the restrained, polite applause you usually see employed after a particularly nice drive or put while watching a live golf game. Polite and restrained, you see, to avoid distracting the golfers on other holes. It's evolved into a meme as a way of giving rather snooty props to someone for something clever.

[Snickers]

Holy cats! No idea it came from the Emilio Estevez/Charlie Sheen movie Men at Work though. Huh.

Underrated little movie, that was.

[KneadToKnow]

Mad props to Colophon.

[Smurfie]

This is a pretty well known theory, and is widely accepted. At one time there was a wide water gap between North and South America, with full circulation of water between the Atlantic and Pacific. The continents gradually began drifting closer to one another, starting about 20 million years ago. The final closure of the Isthmus of Panama was about 3-4 million years ago. Once the flow of water between the oceans ceased, the Gulf Stream strengthened and the current pattern of thermohaline circulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation), or oceanic conveyor belt. This is believed to have helped trigger glaciation cycles in the northern hemisphere. Removal of the Central American isthmus would unquestionably have very significant effects on global climate.

(However, this idea is not universally accepted. I saw a seminar just last week in which a researcher proposed that the Ice Ages were actually triggered when New Guinea and Australia drifted north far enought to restrict oceanic circulation through Indonesia, changing sea-surface conditions across the Pacific.)

Great. Now we have to sink Australia. Just to be sure.

[Enola Straight]

Harry Turtledove wrote a story ("Down in the Bottomlands") in which the Mediterranean remained dry to the present-day (existing as a huge "Death Valley"-like area with a few very salty seas, and unique lifeforms).

Julian May has a novel in which the opening of the straits is an important plot point.


I seem to remember a short sf story of a civilization in the Mediterranean basin destroyed during the zanclean flood with refugees escaping by boat.

The story strongly hints at being the basis for the ancient myths of Atlantis and Noah's Ark.

[Scuba_Ben]

I once read a SF story that used this idea (except they had an earthquake destroying Central America instead of nuclear explosions). In the story, the gap diverted the Gulf Stream. The absence of that warm water caused temperatures in Western Europe to significantly drop.

I read that... has to have been 1984 or earlier as I remember where I was living at the time. That was "seriously drop" as in "Britain becomes marginally habitable, to the extent of begging the USA to take in millions of refugees". Then the States sorted it out with a big-ass dam to fill in the gap and restore the Gulf Stream, but kept a fleet of bombers on standby in case the dam should need blowing up again - so those pesky Euros would know to play nice, you hear me? I forget who wrote it.

I came into this thread to mention / attempt to recall the same story. I'm all but certain that it was either in Asimov's or Analog. I seem to recall that the big-ass dam was called the "Welling Wall." Off to see if Google can figure out what I'm thinking of....

Nope, nothing.

[NoCoolUserName]

I came into this thread to mention / attempt to recall the same story. I'm all but certain that it was either in Asimov's or Analog. I seem to recall that the big-ass dam was called the "Welling Wall." Off to see if Google can figure out what I'm thinking of....

Nope, nothing.
There's a different-but-similar story (my recollection of the story is quite clear, but not author or title) where Panama is destroyed by nukes (world war, everyone targets Panama for tactical reasons) and the resulting EMP causes mutations in children being born at that moment (preposterous, but there you go)--they all have odd-colored eyes and high IQs. Panama is eventually rebuilt by using nukes to throw up debris to block the blown-out spot.

[Andy L]

I came into this thread to mention / attempt to recall the same story. I'm all but certain that it was either in Asimov's or Analog. I seem to recall that the big-ass dam was called the "Welling Wall." Off to see if Google can figure out what I'm thinking of....

Nope, nothing.

"Shifting Seas" by Stanley Weinbaum, available at Project Gutenberg (http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0607511h.html) - first published in Amazing stories, 1937.

[Andy L]

I seem to remember a short sf story of a civilization in the Mediterranean basin destroyed during the zanclean flood with refugees escaping by boat.

The story strongly hints at being the basis for the ancient myths of Atlantis and Noah's Ark.

Probably a bunch of stories with that idea - any other details?

[Malacandra]

Much earlier. IIRC, it was from the 1940s (It mentioned the "Ring of Fire", but was unaware of Continental Drift). Can't recall who wrote it, though.

Oh yes, it was old stuff when I read it - IIRC the collection also had shorts-wearing astronauts exploring habitable Jovian satellites and so on. That would make it Stanley G. Weinbaum, but I can't find the story on his list of shorts, so maybe I don't remember correctly.

ETA - ninjaed! :eek:

[Andy L]

Oh yes, it was old stuff when I read it - IIRC the collection also had shorts-wearing astronauts exploring habitable Jovian satellites and so on. That would make it Stanley G. Weinbaum, but I can't find the story on his list of shorts, so maybe I don't remember correctly.

ETA - ninjaed! :eek:

By the way, I used Google Books to find "Welling Wall" and then (because it told me the story was in a Weinbaum collection, but not which story it was) I used regular Google to search with the word "Weinbaum" added, until I found what I wanted.

[Peter Morris]

A man, a plan, a con. TNT! No canal! Panama :(

Very nice indeed. Original?

[brocks]

A man, a plan, a con. TNT!

The answer is Ted Turner.

[brocks]

Didn't "golf clap" start in TV, though? I seem to remember it figuring in a SNL sketch or something. It's referring to the restrained, polite applause you usually see employed after a particularly nice drive or put while watching a live golf game. Polite and restrained, you see, to avoid distracting the golfers on other holes. It's evolved into a meme as a way of giving rather snooty props to someone for something clever.

Is there a name for the clap you see in movies but never in real life, where one guy starts with real loud, slow claps, and then it spreads around the room and turns into normal applause?

[Dano83860]

Thanks. Would the Pacific flow into the Atlantic indefinitely, or would there be some balance in the future? Also, in terms of the species mingling, are there any good specific hypothetical examples?

The flows from the Pacific to the Caribbean would reach equilibrium. If not we could line up generators on the bank and have a source of perpetual energy.

[brocks]

The flows from the Pacific to the Caribbean would reach equilibrium. If not we could line up generators on the bank and have a source of perpetual energy.

That's not an argument for equilibrium. You can put a dam and generator on any of thousands of rivers and get a source of perpetual energy.

I have no knowledge of oceanography, but I would guess that under some circumstances there could indeed be a current flowing for as long as the land masses and climate remained stable.

[Leo Bloom]

Thanks re golf clap...
Leo