Another tr/chr poll?! (Take two)

[Frylock]

Two of the sounds from the clip linked below are from words beginning with the letter "t." the other two sounds from the clip are from words beginning with the letters "ch."

Can you spot the two t's?

Unfortunately, this poll can never put the issue to rest since people will always be able to say (once they've heard the originals) that the speaker is in fact pronouncing one or more of the 't' words with a 'ch' sound at the beginning instead of a 't' sound. What we would really need is a separate poll, answered by different people than those answering this one, opining as to whether the speaker is saying "t" or "ch" at the beginning of the two t words. But such an arrangement can't really be made on a forum like this one. (ETA: I may be able to work out some kind of method by making this poll public--but I am not sure of that since anyone doing the other poll would have been able to see the results of this one first--and here its sounds--and that's likely to skew the other poll...)

Basically, then, for now, this poll is the best method I can come up with.

The poll question is: Which of the two sounds (first, second, third, fourth) from the linked clip are t sounds.

Link (http://kiwi6.com/file/wey8to8use).

[JKellyMap]

The only one that sounds like "t" to me is 4. Since I had to choose another "t", I almost picked from among the other three at random. Hopefully, others who have a similiar experience will say so in a posted message like this one, because it could be helpful when you interpret the results. P.S. Good job learning new software so quickly!

[Indistinguishable]

I had an experience similar to JKellyMap.

[Frylock]

I was going to put a "none of the above option." Then I decided I should force participants to choose one... thinking something I now suspect may have been confused, about testing whether people were able to pick up on the difference even if only with difficulty.

[Baal Houtham]

Have you tried Allegra? Sometimes I use the Walgreen's Wal-Zyr stuff, but it makes me tired all day long.

(Apologies for the cheap joke, but at this point I can't get it up for another poll, unless it's the superduper definitive absolute answer poll.)

[KneadToKnow]

I had an experience similar to JKellyMap.

Concur.

[Onomatopoeia]

The only one that was a 't' sound was 4. All others were 'ch'

[JKellyMap]

I see that only myself and Indistingishable have participated in the poll so far. Come on, KneadtoKnow and Onomatapoeia...sometimes you gotta just bite the bullet and commit!

Baal, okay. Poll fatigue is quite forgivable. But after a good night's rest, you might want to consider going for it. We need to get that sample size up into statistically valid territory!

[Frylock]

I see that only myself and Indistingishable have participated in the poll so far. Come on, KneadtoKnow and Onomatapoeia...sometimes you gotta just bite the bullet and commit!

Baal, okay. Poll fatigue is quite forgivable. But after a good night's rest, you might want to consider going for it. We need to get that sample size up into statistically valid territory!

Considering there are over 60 responses in the other thread, I'm tempted to declare that I won't reveal the correct answers til I've got at least 50 responses over here... :D

[Polerius]

I had an experience similar to JKellyMap.Concur.
Same here.

It's hard to vote on any of the options.

[BigT]

Agreed with everyone else.

There may be another stop in there, but it isn't [t]. Granted, one of them could be /t/ before /r/ or /j/ (or preceded by /c/ before /w/.)

If I do vote, I will vote for the other stop, but I will not be saying it's actually a [t].

EDIT:Wait a second. The first one is reverse [t], isn't it? You trickster!

[BigT]

Okay, my second spoiler was wrong. But it's still the only one you could possibly claim was a [t], as it sounds like stop is at the end.

And my first spoiler is wrong about any of them being non-[t] stops, I think. They all have a definite /ʃ/ (sh) sound in them (except the first, where it may be a [x] (ch as in German ich).

[BigT]

Sorry: one more post now that I've reread the OP.

If having different people answer is sufficient, then you ought to be able to pull it off just by putting them in a different order for the full words. However, I'm not sure the first premise is sound. If the other responders know that there is a possibility that the person is saying "ch" instead of "t", they may pick it out, when, ordinarily, they wouldn't notice.

If that's the case, then the only way to have done it here would have been to have the full words first, asking us what the words are and if there's anything weird about the way any of them sound, and then had this poll, again with the answers out of order. And you'd have to have the first poll close before the second one started.

Then again, for all I know, that's what you did.

Also, one more fix to the above post:
I guess the sound before the [t] in the first one could be a heavily aspirated [h], perhaps just the speaker breathing heavily before starting.

BTW, the difficulty in distinguishing may be because "ch" actually contains a [t]. It's IPA is [tʃ]. You make a [t] and transition directly into an [ʃ], sounding them nearly simultaneously.

[Frylock]

I'll put up the full-word sound clips later today.

So few responses! If you're not responding because you think only one sounds like a t, please feel free to register that in the thread.

A couple of people above have hinted or joked that there is trickery afoot--so let me say officially that there is no trick here. Everything I say in the OP is straightforwardly true.

[Frylock]

Sorry: one more post now that I've reread the OP.

If having different people answer is sufficient, then you ought to be able to pull it off just by putting them in a different order for the full words.

Problem is, since I need to be using the same sound clips as sources for the clipped off versions, anyone with access to both polls can fairly easily simply compare the clips either by ear or using software like Audacity.

However, I'm not sure the first premise is sound. If the other responders know that there is a possibility that the person is saying "ch" instead of "t", they may pick it out, when, ordinarily, they wouldn't notice.

I think I agree (not sure what is meant by "the first premise") but what surprised me and interested me in the other thread was the fact that the great majority of people were voting that not only do they themselves say 't' in 'truck' but that the recorded pronunciation was also saying 't'. To me the recording is manifestly, obviously and without question saying 'ch'.

BTW, the difficulty in distinguishing may be because "ch" actually contains a [t]. It's IPA is [tʃ]. You make a [t] and transition directly into an [ʃ], sounding them nearly simultaneously.

I know that's the convention, but I think there's controversy to that analysis, and I certainly am strongly inclined to disagree. T and CH have completely different tongue positions. Moreover if the confusion were due to this, shouldn't people be hearing a lot of t's rather than a lot of ch's when listening to the linked-to clip?

[KneadToKnow]

So few responses! If you're not responding because you think only one sounds like a t, please feel free to register that in the thread.

So registered. I only hear one [t] in that set.

[njtt]

Agree with JKellyMap, although they all do sound quite different. Three was softer and a bit more ambiguous than 1 and 2, so it was my second choice for a T.

I am not sure that any of this is very objective, though. Isn't what we hear going to depend a lot on precisely where you choose to make your edit?

[JKellyMap]

There may be another stop in there, but it isn't [t]. Granted, one of them could be /t/ before /r/ or /j/ (or preceded by /c/ before /w/.)

If I do vote, I will vote for the other stop, but I will not be saying it's actually a [t].


That's very interesting to me -- you made me realize that words like actual (no spoiler necessary, I think) pretty much HAVE to be pronounced --ch--.

[njtt]

Incidentally, if Eric Schwitzgebel (http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/) is even close to being right (and I am inclined to think he maybe), there may be no true fact of the matter about phenomena like this:
We are prone to gross error, even in favorable circumstances of extended reflection, about our own ongoing conscious experience, our current phenomenology. (http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzAbs/Naive.htm)

[twickster]

Moved Cafe Society --> IMHO.

[Acsenray]

I'm with JKellyMap on this one.

[Yorikke]

I very clearly hear 1,2, and 3 as ch. Four is the only t.

Joe

[Frylock]

I am not sure that any of this is very objective, though. Isn't what we hear going to depend a lot on precisely where you choose to make your edit?

I'm trying to test the claim that the t in tr can be discerned as a t as opposed to a ch. If I'm wrong, then since playing the first bit of a t never yields a sound mistakeable for a ch, it should be that playing the first bit of a tr never yields a sound mistakeable for a ch.

If people are hearing "ch" instead of "t" then this would seem to be evidence that t before r is pronounced with a ch sound. (But as I said in the OP, this poll won't be definitive since people will be able to claim that though the truck guy in the other thread is saying 't', the person in the sound clips in this thread is saying 'ch' instead.

I think the 'truck' guy is saying 'ch' just as manifestly and obviously as the person in this thread is also saying 'ch' but I haven't thought of a way to prove it.

In any case, I did try to make these clips objectively evaluable in at least one way--I cut off each clip at exactly the same point. (.09 seconds.)

[Frylock]

Incidentally, if Eric Schwitzgebel (http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/) is even close to being right (and I am inclined to think he maybe), there may be no true fact of the matter about phenomena like this:

Didn't read the article but based on your comment and the abstract, I'm not sure it applies here: I'm not asking people what their internal phenomenology is like, I'm asking people what sound is being made.

[Frylock]

I'll tell you guys what words I used, and from where, sometime around 7 or 8 EST. Sorry to make you wait--simply put, I don't remember what words they were, and the list is on my laptop at home.

[JKellyMap]

I'd like to point out two items which reflect on just how similar the position of the mouthparts are for the unvoiced dental stop "t" compared with the unvoiced dental affricate "ch". The first is a brief extract from Ladefoged and Maddieson's The Sounds of the World's Languages (page 90):

"In almost every case, as a stop is released the articulators will pass briefly through a position in which the constriction is narrow enough that it will cause turbulence in the air at the constriction site. This transitory friction is usually considered a part of the release burst of the stop. Affricates are stops in which the release of the constriction is modified in such a way as to produce a more prolonged period of frication after the release."

The other item is my unprofessional observation that the VOICED dental stop/affricate pair -- "d" vs. the "g/j" sound in "orgy"-- are so close that when one is found in Spanish, the other is often found in the closely related language of Portuguese (and spelled "d" in both). For example, Spanish ciudad "seeoo-DAHD" ("city") is cognate to Portuguese cidade "see-DODGY".

(Since this -d/-de ending is rather common in both languages, to my Spanish-tuned ears Portuguese sometimes sounds something like "mangy Angie's dodgy orgy".)

[Frylock]

I'd like to point out two items which reflect on just how similar the position of the mouthparts are for the unvoiced dental stop "t" compared with the unvoiced dental affricate "ch". The first is a brief extract from Ladefoged and Maddieson's The Sounds of the World's Languages (page 90):

"In almost every case, as a stop is released the articulators will pass briefly through a position in which the constriction is narrow enough that it will cause turbulence in the air at the constriction site. This transitory friction is usually considered a part of the release burst of the stop. Affricates are stops in which the release of the constriction is modified in such a way as to produce a more prolonged period of frication after the release."

This isn't illustrative of your point. I make a ts sound, not a ch sound, by modifying "the release of the constriction... in such a way as to produce a more prolonged period of frication after the release" of the dental stop.

The other item is my unprofessional observation that the VOICED dental stop/affricate pair -- "d" vs. the "g/j" sound in "orgy"-- are so close that when one is found in Spanish, the other is often found in the closely related language of Portuguese (and spelled "d" in both). For example, Spanish ciudad "seeoo-DAHD" ("city") is cognate to Portuguese cidade "see-DODGY".

Sure, they're close. But they're distinct, however close they may be. In my own mouth, by a visual estimation, I'd say there's at least a half a centimeter of difference in position of contact between tongue and roof of mouth.

[JKellyMap]

This isn't illustrative of your point. I make a ts sound, not a ch sound, by modifying "the release of the constriction... in such a way as to produce a more prolonged period of frication after the release" of the dental stop.


You may be on to something there....Ladefoged WAS talking about "ch" here, but you're right in that, in order to get "ch" during the frication, you need to hold the sides of your tongue tight to the back of the upper teeth (the molars and a bit forward from there). If you DON'T keep that tightness, you slip into an "s". So, we're talking about exactly which part(s) of the "constriction" is/are "released".



Sure, they're close. But they're distinct, however close they may be. In my own mouth, by a visual estimation, I'd say there's at least a half a centimeter of difference in position of contact between tongue and roof of mouth


Agreed. Just pointing out other clues (especially for some Dopers who may still be incredulus about the whole thing) that the "t/ch" connection isn't just random (nor is it phantom).

[Frylock]

The words, in order, are

Cheat (http://www.onelook.com/pronounce/macmillan/US/cheat-American-English-pronunciation.mp3)

treat (http://www.onelook.com/pronounce/macmillan/US/treat-American-English-pronunciation.mp3)

chirp (http://www.onelook.com/pronounce/macmillan/US/chirp-American-English-pronunciation.mp3)

tee (http://www.onelook.com/?w=tee&ls=a)

[Onomatopoeia]

The words, in order, are

Cheat (http://www.onelook.com/pronounce/macmillan/US/cheat-American-English-pronunciation.mp3)

treat (http://www.onelook.com/pronounce/macmillan/US/treat-American-English-pronunciation.mp3)

chirp (http://www.onelook.com/pronounce/macmillan/US/chirp-American-English-pronunciation.mp3)

tee (http://www.onelook.com/?w=tee&ls=a)Aha. #2 must be an example of pronouncing 'tr' as 'chr', as in "chruck" instead of "truck."

[panache45]

Only #4.

[Frylock]

Aha. #2 must be an example of pronouncing 'tr' as 'chr', as in "chruck" instead of "truck."

As is the "truck" clip in the other thread! :D