Believing in God

[obbn]

Hello All,
I guess I much have too much time on my hands because it leads me to think critically on things such as God. I was raised a Catholic and I do believe that there is a God. What disturbs me is that when I try to think of the existence of God in a reasonable light I sometimes question what I believe. Of course it bothers me that I question my faith, but I guess that is what humans with a brain do.
So, my latest thought (and stay with me here) today was that Jesus Christ spread the word of God, there were miracles performed and that is basically what "convinced" the people in this region to belive in God and christianity. (Yes, I may have my facts confused a bit, I am just sketching broad strokes here).
So, the people who knew Jesus and witnessed the miracles certainly have a reason to believe. My question is: If God exist and wants all humans to know and believe in him why was Jesus confined to a single geographical point on earth. The Native Americans and the native Africans would know nothing of Jesus until they were told of his existence by Europeans colonizing their lands. So, in order to believe they had to take a second hand account and believe what they are being told. Why wouldn't God send (for the lack of a better word) a representative to different localations across the Earth so all humans at one point in time would have had first hand knowledge? Becuase he didn't, the majority of the World has to take the word of others that this is true and not a made up story.
I hope that I have made some sense in what I am trying to get across. I truly do believe that there is a God, but sometimes my thinking side convices me that our Christian God is no different than the Sun or Moon Gods of the early, less civalized cultures. It makes me very torn inside. Any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.

[Napier]

There is much to doubt about the whole story of God. If you want to embrace the question without guile and openmindedly, "Breaking the Spell" by Daniel Dennett is a thoughtful read (I just finished it a few hours ago).

Broadly, I think many things about the whole story are pretty implausible, including the mystery surrounding it. I wouldn't be that hard to convince, for an omniscient and omnipotent being - though that's another implausibility, isn't it? Omniscience includes knowing the future, and omnipotence includes the option to make the future different at any future time, making knowing it impossible, right?

There is a great deal to read on the question if you are interested. Besides Dennett, other questioning authors include Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens. Sometimes the four are collectively known as the Four Horsemen. All have written very useful books.

[The Tooth]

I have to admit I'm puzzled as to why anyone would consider any sort of deity to be anything other than mythological. As far as I can see, people believe in gods because they either fill an emotional need or because they're told to believe or else there will be trouble. I don't so much not believe in gods as I don't pretend they're real.

[Der Trihs]

I truly do believe that there is a God, but sometimes my thinking side convices me that our Christian God is no different than the Sun or Moon Gods of the early, less civalized cultures. It makes me very torn inside. Any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.The Christian god is indeed like the gods of other cultures; nonexistent, with no evidence for it being even possible, much less real. You may believe sincerely in your god, but the followers of other gods were and are just as sincere, their beliefs just as baseless, and just as wrong.

[Leaffan]

Early people didn't understand volcanoes, or earth quakes. or thunder storms, or lightning strikes, or eclipses, or tides, or fire, or.............

Well, you get the picture. And since all knowledge of creation came from birthing and offspring, then obviously someone, or something must have been our parent or creator.

We understand much more about our surroundings now and don't need to rely on mythology.

[Strinka]

What disturbs me is that when I try to think of the existence of God in a reasonable light I sometimes question what I believe.

Never be disturbed by questioning your beliefs. It's the only way to correct wrong beliefs and learn true ones. If the belief you're questioning is true, the questioning will only reinforce it in the end. If the belief is false your belief in it won't change that and it should be discarded anyway.

[Trinopus]

One of the things that kills my ability to believe is watching new religions spring up. Modern neo-paganism, for instance, has (in some instances) come to embrace Tolkien's "Elbereth" as a spirit, and I have seen ceremonies and prayers offered to her. The historical origin and rise of Islam is not all that different from the origin and rise of the Mormon church....or of Scientology...

Trinopus

[obbn]

To all you SD's. Thank for the well thought out and considerate replies. I have been in many fourms on the internet and I was very hesitant to post this question. The reason being that in every other site that the discussion of religion comes up it seems to turn into an instant flamewar. Belivers on one side and non-believers on the other. Instead of gaining anything usefull, it just ends up being an incredible stupid argument.
Reinforces one belief that I know is true. The people at SD a reasonable, helpful and respectful of others opinions and beliefs. Congrats everyone.

[obbn]

To all you SD's. Thank Thanks for the well thought out and considerate replies. I have been in many fourms on the internet and I was very hesitant to post this question. The reason being that in every other site that the discussion of religion comes up it seems to turn into an instant flamewar. Belivers on one side and non-believers on the other. Instead of gaining anything usefull, it just ends up being an incredible stupid argument.
Reinforces one belief that I know is true. The people at SD a reasonable, helpful and respectful of others opinions and beliefs. Congrats everyone.

Sorry for the spelling errors. Must be a bit more tired than I thought.

[monavis]

Sorry for the spelling errors. Must be a bit more tired than I thought.

It is a fact that there is nothing ever written,read, thought, or taught that wasn't by a human, so one believes in what a human has to say about God weither it is: the word of God,inspired by God, or told by God. That is what Faith is, a belief in what, or who, one chooses to believe, it is a tool to help one get through life.

If some one said now days that God told them anything that person would not be believed by many, and no one can say in truth that God said anything,inspired anything, or did anything.

[Alka Seltzer]

My question is: If God exist and wants all humans to know and believe in him why was Jesus confined to a single geographical point on earth.

...

I hope that I have made some sense in what I am trying to get across.

Good summary, many people before you have wondered the same thing. Chrisitanity has a great deal of trouble reconciling things like this with the concept of a benevolent God. The field of Chrisitian apologetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics) will contain a number of rationalistations for this, but I can't find anything specific. Some christians might stress the importance of free will, and say that once Christ revealed himself it was up to mankind to spread his word. It's not impossible to explain rationally, but I personally find these justifications unsatisfying. The simplest explanation is that the bible is not divinely inspired, and either there is no God, or it's nature is unknown.

[kanicbird]

My question is: If God exist and wants all humans to know and believe in him why was Jesus confined to a single geographical point on earth. The Native Americans and the native Africans would know nothing of Jesus until they were told of his existence by Europeans colonizing their lands. So, in order to believe they had to take a second hand account and believe what they are being told. Why wouldn't God send (for the lack of a better word) a representative to different localations across the Earth so all humans at one point in time would have had first hand knowledge? Becuase he didn't, the majority of the World has to take the word of others that this is true and not a made up story.

God's Word states if you seek Him you will find Him, there is no room for exceptions in that. God does not say if you seek me but you are on a island nation that has not heard of me you are SOL.

To find God you simply have to seek Him, it doesn't matter where you are in the world or what is around you. King David sought the Lord and found Him, David knew Him personally, manifested gifts of the Holy Spirit, yet Jesus was his still to be conceived great great ... grandson.

So you don't have to know the new testament scriptures to know Jesus, if you seek Him you will find Him.

Many Native Americas know Him, know the Holy Spirit (called the Great Spirit) and the Father (called Grandfather). They have the path, the way many know God better then many Christians.

What about the name of Jesus? Is that important, well yes, but not by name. It's important to realize that there is a son of God/ son of man because that is us, it is our inheritance to the kingdom, though we don't have to call Him Jesus. Also there is a female counterpart as well. Scriptures state that you baptize in the name of Jesus, but Jesus states you baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So which one is right. They all are. There is a line of scripture that 'even the demons know that God is one, and they shutter'. You can use any name for God you chose as long as you mean God, as they all are God, equally God as Father is equally God as Son is equally God as Holy Spirit.

Scriptures also state that God is Love, therefore you can baptize in the name of Love, and that opens the door to any name for God that means Love. So all Gods that mean Love is the one true God. When you baptize or act in the name of Love (or any God that means Love), you are taking God's name as your own and recognizing the son of God within yourself - Jesus

...
So, my latest thought (and stay with me here) today was that Jesus Christ spread the word of God, there were miracles performed and that is basically what "convinced" the people in this region to belive in God and christianity. (Yes, I may have my facts confused a bit, I am just sketching broad strokes here).
So, the people who knew Jesus and witnessed the miracles certainly have a reason to believe.

The miracles were sort of a failure in that capacity, they were more of what Jesus needed couldn't be handed in the natural, such as needing to make a boat that already left, He had to walk on water to make his ship.

[msmith537]

Early people didn't understand volcanoes, or earth quakes. or thunder storms, or lightning strikes, or eclipses, or tides, or fire, or.............

Well, you get the picture. And since all knowledge of creation came from birthing and offspring, then obviously someone, or something must have been our parent or creator.

We understand much more about our surroundings now and don't need to rely on mythology.

People have a need to feel that there is a "reason" for things. Most people aren't comfortible with the idea that everything happens because it happens, not as part of any grand scheme. Belief in a diety helps them make sense of the world when bad (or good) things happen. Success and good fortune are the result of faith and belief while tradgedy and misfortune are either a result of failure to follow God's teachings or God is testing you beliefs (depending if that misfortune happens to you or other people).

It's no so much a misunderstanding of how things work, but why.

[Blake]

The people at SD a reasonable, helpful and respectful of others opinions and beliefs.

This is The Straight Dope Message Boards you're talking about? :eek:

[Farmer Jane]

The problem with the OP's question is that he/she assumes that Jesus was the only instrument of God, or was an instrument of God at all. So I think the problem then becomes with Christianity and not God himself. You can believe in God without it conforming to the Nicean creed.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

The same lack of basis exists with any god belief. Any belief in a scriptural or revealed authority is equally unfounded and irrational. We have no evidence that any god has ever, ever ever revealed itself to anyone. All revelation and scripture is made up by people. All god belief is based on the say so of other people, none of which have anymore evidence than anybody else.

This is typically where believers resort to the "I just know in my heart," bullshit. Wishful thinking. Self delusion. If God exists, he doesn't have to be coy. There is no moral value in believing something without reason or proof.

[obbn]

God does not say if you seek me but you are on a island nation that has not heard of me you are SOL.

Thanks for the indepth reply. Then this brings up this question. I understand the concept of seek Him and you will find Him. But how does that apply to humans that a) never heard of God or Jesus or b) because of society/location. If this human has absolutely no concept of God or instead decieds to worship a rock because he has no other reference how does that play out. Is he denied entrance into Heavan because he is ignorant. Seek Him is reasonable if you know that God exist to seek. But how can you seek something that you don't know exist?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

There is no universal Christian answer to that, but in some denominations, any sincere attempt to seek out a higher power is seen as equivalent to seeking out Christ.

[Napier]

The people at SD a reasonable, helpful and respectful of others opinions and beliefs.

What the.... Wait! What's happening? Suddenly I feel obligated to question and doubt whether I am reasonable, helpful and respectful!

Whoa. Didn't see THAT coming.

[Napier]

Thanks for the indepth reply. Then this brings up this question. I understand the concept of seek Him and you will find Him. But how does that apply to humans that a) never heard of God or Jesus or b) because of society/location. If this human has absolutely no concept of God or instead decieds to worship a rock because he has no other reference how does that play out. Is he denied entrance into Heavan because he is ignorant. Seek Him is reasonable if you know that God exist to seek. But how can you seek something that you don't know exist?

I think you have to consider the "seek Him and you will find Him" advice on the basis that it is typically being given at the margin of belief, to people who have access to various accounts of Him. The idea is that this idea of God which is already part of the discussion will become part of the listener's belief if the listener acts on a preference to believe.

It wouldn't be relevant if you are considering people who have had no other opportunity to hear the stories of this particular god.

[itsharkley]

I have to admit I'm puzzled as to why anyone would consider any sort of deity to be anything other than mythological. As far as I can see, people believe in gods because they either fill an emotional need or because they're told to believe or else there will be trouble. I don't so much not believe in gods as I don't pretend they're real.

I agree. And I also believe that it wasn't fair of God to not let others know of existence besides the ones that came into contact with jesus before death. They, according to the bible, woulda gone to hell. So would babies, who are born sinners, again like the bible says, that die (yes very violent and upsetting) way before they can even begin to understand god's existence.

[Didact Lectorem777]

One thing that has easily helped promote the belief in God is Russell's Teapot. The Celestial Teapot is used as an example when illustrating the idea that you can claim any scientifically unfalsifiable claims through the concept that one must first disprove its existence, rather than the first person proving it to exist in the first place. Bertrand Russell claimed that a teapot was orbiting the sun; because it was too small to detect, no one could prove it didn't exist, and so must accept that it MUST exist, if they wished to believe that God exists so long as they can't find proof s/he doesn't. This has also been used in the satirical Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster http://www.venganza.org/

[FlikTheBlue]

The one place where I still find room for some form of god is deism. If the laws of thermodynamics are correct, then energy/matter can neither be created or destroyed. Also we have the law that states that entropy always increases. If we take the universe as a whole, where did the original order come from? I just don't see anything in any of the sciences (astronomy, quantum mechanics, etc.) that could explain the very fact of existence using only the laws of our current universe. Maybe I misunderstand the science, and if that is the case, I would appreciate it if someone with more knowledge of these sciences could explain what kind of testable hypothesis their is that can explain the existence of the universe instead of nothingness.

[Zoe]

Some people of varying faiths have what might be described as "unity experiences." That seems to be a common thread. Each person's experience(s) varies but usually includes feelings of extreme bliss, a feeling of expansion of the personal self, and a sense of unity with everything from a blade of grass to stones to other people. Things of our past seem sweet, but inconsequential. Individual religions seem to have no bounds.

When that happened to me roughly thirty years ago, I had never heard of that happening to anyone else. Now I read about it or hear about it from lots of people. Although I am a Christian, I did not associate it at the time with Christian teachings, but I did see things in the teachings later that seemed to make sense of it. And I have become much more open to other faiths and I am not as quick to judge them except those that are close-minded themselves. Zealots who want to take over our government still give me the creeps.

I think God is too big to be comprehended. Those who declare that God does not exist do not know that with scientific certainty anymore than the faithful know. But this is a reminder that not all of us depend just on the words of others. Like you, we depend on our experiences -- our observations. Those moments seem more real than any other moments in my life.

I do not believe in hell or exclusiveness. As I've said before, maybe God is "the Great Cosmic Glue."

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Do you know for a certainty that wood sprites don't exist?

I've had that experience. At one time in my life, I was obsessed with finding what William James called the "universal Religious Experience." I experimented with a lot of mystic techniques, and had some successes. They were ant-climactic. They were interesting cognitive gymnastics, but it was still just really altered brain chemistry. I didn't learn anything or become a better person.

Those experiences can also be induced by stimulating certain parts of the brain. Every religious experience can be duplicated by poking the right part of the brain.

There's nothing supernatural about them. They may be pleasant or seem profound, but they impart no new knowledge and are certainly not evidence for sky gods.

One thing I do no for a certainty is that, so far, we have discovered nothing in the universe that requires a God, and the gods that humans imagine are both logically and empirically inconsistent with observed reality. I assume sky gods don't exist the same way I assume werewolves don't exist, but anytime anyone wants to show either evidence or necessity, I'm all ears.

Personal experience won't cut it for me, because I had it (twice actually), and I knew what it really was while it was happening and I wasn't impressed.

[Alka Seltzer]

The one place where I still find room for some form of god is deism.

...

I just don't see anything in any of the sciences (astronomy, quantum mechanics, etc.) that could explain the very fact of existence using only the laws of our current universe. Maybe I misunderstand the science, and if that is the case, I would appreciate it if someone with more knowledge of these sciences could explain what kind of testable hypothesis their is that can explain the existence of the universe instead of nothingness.

That isn't understood by science, and probably never will be. The big bang theory does a very good job of explaining the very early history of our universe, down to the first fractions of seconds, but does not explain the event itself. Terry Pratchett said it best:

In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded.

Recently, it has been claimed that the distribution of the cosmic background radiation supports the multiverse (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14372387) theory. It's possible that we just happen to live in a bubble of space-time that obeys those particular laws, other bubbles may behave differently. This would settle the argument over the anthropic principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle), explaining why we live in universe that supports life. However, even if that is the case, it does not explain why we live in a multiverse.

But if science cannot ultimately explain the origin of our universe, I question whether it is in any way meaningful to say "God did it", that also explains nothing. What manner of God? Why did they create our universe as it is?

I think God is too big to be comprehended. Those who declare that God does not exist do not know that with scientific certainty anymore than the faithful know.

That's why I retain a little agnosticism, ultimately these questions may be beyond by comprehension.

But this is a reminder that not all of us depend just on the words of others. Like you, we depend on our experiences -- our observations. Those moments seem more real than any other moments in my life.

The problem with personal revelation is that people have contradictory experiences which seem equally real to them. Here is a fascinating study on the efficacy of prayer (http://www.religioustolerance.org/god_pray.htm) on religioustolerance.org. The summary of results (http://www.religioustolerance.org/god_pra6.htm) are here, and here is the interpretation (http://www.religioustolerance.org/god_pra7.htm) of them.

[kanicbird]

Thanks for the indepth reply. Then this brings up this question. I understand the concept of seek Him and you will find Him. But how does that apply to humans that a) never heard of God or Jesus or b) because of society/location. If this human has absolutely no concept of God or instead decieds to worship a rock because he has no other reference how does that play out. Is he denied entrance into Heavan because he is ignorant. Seek Him is reasonable if you know that God exist to seek. But how can you seek something that you don't know exist?



The concept of heaven and hell is not too productive in this. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it certainly does, but it tends to distract and frighten many people, and sends motivation which is not of God such as fear.

The parable of the prodigal son is a great example of our soul's journey into this world and how we will eventually 'run out or resources' and need to travel back home. Though it doesn't explain how we will know where to seek, which is the main thrust of what you are asking. But it is better to assure us that it is within us to seek God when all else seems lost and there is no way out - so we all have a return path back home to God. If it helps you to call that place heaven then go for it, but IMHO it is better though of as the kingdom of God, or simply family of God, as why Jesus called God his Abba-Father (Daddy/Father), this is the name of God that Jesus revealed to us, what a father's ears long to be call by His young child - Daddy.

How we know to seek God:

There is a longing of the human heart to Love and to be Loved. This is because we are made in the likeness of God and God is Love, but the likeness is more then that, we are God's very children. Our longing of our heart for Love is our longing for God, they are the same.

We know Love when we get it, The true stuff. the first time I remember for me was a hug given to me in high school. There was something magical about it that is memorable to this day. Once we get it we will seek it out. As we experience Love though other people we can see that the Love is the same, from the same source, that is God, even though it comes through different people. Eventually this path of Love we follow will have us realize that Love is a living spirit (in scriptures God is Love, God is Spirit, God is the God of the Living) and has guided us to greater Love and the realization that God has guided us.

The above is a example of how even in a society that does not believe in any gods a person can find God.

The question of rock worship, the subset of pantheism (god is in everything), and it's close sibling polytheism ( many gods), requires God to shift your focus from the material object and physically individual entities to that of Love coming through all objects and entities and originate from a single source higher then the objects and individual entities, and where that Love is coming from - God

There are many ways to do it. God could have His Love come through a tree next time, something that you can feel, or a person, to get your attention off the rock. And in the case of seeking Love, eventually one will realize that it is one God through all (creation/people).

[monavis]

The concept of heaven and hell is not too productive in this. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it certainly does, but it tends to distract and frighten many people, and sends motivation which is not of God such as fear.

The parable of the prodigal son is a great example of our soul's journey into this world and how we will eventually 'run out or resources' and need to travel back home. Though it doesn't explain how we will know where to seek, which is the main thrust of what you are asking. But it is better to assure us that it is within us to seek God when all else seems lost and there is no way out - so we all have a return path back home to God. If it helps you to call that place heaven then go for it, but IMHO it is better though of as the kingdom of God, or simply family of God, as why Jesus called God his Abba-Father (Daddy/Father), this is the name of God that Jesus revealed to us, what a father's ears long to be call by His young child - Daddy.

How we know to seek God:

There is a longing of the human heart to Love and to be Loved. This is because we are made in the likeness of God and God is Love, but the likeness is more then that, we are God's very children. Our longing of our heart for Love is our longing for God, they are the same.

We know Love when we get it, The true stuff. the first time I remember for me was a hug given to me in high school. There was something magical about it that is memorable to this day. Once we get it we will seek it out. As we experience Love though other people we can see that the Love is the same, from the same source, that is God, even though it comes through different people. Eventually this path of Love we follow will have us realize that Love is a living spirit (in scriptures God is Love, God is Spirit, God is the God of the Living) and has guided us to greater Love and the realization that God has guided us.

The above is a example of how even in a society that does not believe in any gods a person can find God.

The question of rock worship, the subset of pantheism (god is in everything), and it's close sibling polytheism ( many gods), requires God to shift your focus from the material object and physically individual entities to that of Love coming through all objects and entities and originate from a single source higher then the objects and individual entities, and where that Love is coming from - God

There are many ways to do it. God could have His Love come through a tree next time, something that you can feel, or a person, to get your attention off the rock. And in the case of seeking Love, eventually one will realize that it is one God through all (creation/people).

If one checks what Paul said Love is...then God doesn't fit the definition. Starting with Love is not self seeking.

[gonzomax]

Actually science does offer an explanation of something from nothing. On the quantum level things do suddenly appear.
The concept of first cause is also answered by that quantum event. The big bang was the beginning of time. Therefore no first cause is necessary since then if you say god did it, you have to explain where god came from. That is back to square one,

[fumster]

The one place where I still find room for some form of god is deism. If the laws of thermodynamics are correct, then energy/matter can neither be created or destroyed. Also we have the law that states that entropy always increases. If we take the universe as a whole, where did the original order come from? I just don't see anything in any of the sciences (astronomy, quantum mechanics, etc.) that could explain the very fact of existence using only the laws of our current universe. Maybe I misunderstand the science, and if that is the case, I would appreciate it if someone with more knowledge of these sciences could explain what kind of testable hypothesis their is that can explain the existence of the universe instead of nothingness.OK, assume we have no possible science-based explanation for why there is something rather than nothing. Why pin the label of "God" on the alternate explanation? It is so overloaded with connotations of being the source or morality, or something that intervenes in life, or rewards and punishes people, and hundreds of other concepts that do not in any way flow from the idea of simply the creator.

Instead let's call it R, for "the reason". So what do we know about R?

1) It created everything

And that's about it.

[John Mace]

My question is: If God exist and wants all humans to know and believe in him why was Jesus confined to a single geographical point on earth.

So basically you're saying:

You'd have managed better if you'd had it planned.
Why'd you choose such a backward time in such a strange land?
If you'd come today you could have reached a whole nation.
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication.

Can't believe no one did that yet. :D

FYI, I was raised Catholic and asked the same question of the nuns when I was in 4th or 5th grade, and they were not amused. Something about Faith being important and all that.

Anyway, keep asking questions. I'm not religious in any way, but I know enough about the NT and what Jesus said to think that he (assuming he existed) would be appalled at the idea of powerful, organized religion like the RCC with all its dark history, its focus on ritual and orthodoxy, the luxurious lifestyle of its leaders, and much, much more.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I think the real Jesus would be appalled to see himself being worshiped as a god at all, and never thought of himself as anything but Jewish.

[John Mace]

I think the real Jesus would be appalled to see himself being worshiped as a god at all, and never thought of himself as anything but Jewish.

You know a lot more than I do about the subject, so I'll defer to your judgenemt on the first item. But yes, I agree on the second.

[Phea]

Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are all hanging out with their "god"... laughing their asses off.

I find it incredible that so many millions of intelligent people can believe in, and worship a god that would allow all the killing and destructive confusion that has existed in his name, for thousands of years now. Especially when this same god was really involved directly and hands on in mankind's affairs early on. So much for the three major Western religions. I also have a problem with omnipotence. If you could no longer learn or experience anything new, what would be the point of continued existence?

The big question: did matter begat intelligence, or did intelligence begat matter? Logically, it makes a lot more sense that intelligence created matter than the other way around, as we manipulate it so well.

The bottom line is, I really don't know.

[Revtim]

I can relate my own experiences, if that's any help.

I was raised going to a protestant church, and although as a kid I believed in God, I never had anything happen that made me think "hey, that good thing (or whatever) that just happened must have been god's doing!" It all seemed random to me, but I didn't doubt that god existed.

Once I learned about all the the other religions in the world that were incompatible with mine, with the realization that I only believed in mine because I happened to be "lucky" enough to born into the geographic location that happened to follow the *correct* religion, that made me think a bit. Aren't these other people going to go to hell for what isn't their fault? I asked my Mom about this, but she had no good answer. If she had softened her fundyish stance that either you worship Jesus, or you burn in hell forever, this might not have been as important a factor in me later rejecting Christianity. But she didn't, because that what she was taught to believe, and if you doubt that stuff you are tortured for eternity.

I didn't reject Christianity or theism in general at that time, but I think that was the first seeds of my skepticism.

I knew about mythologies, but I never really made the connection between them and religions until a 7th grade teacher casually mentioned that these myths were these people's religions. I don't know if it was that night, but some night not long after that I recall lying in bed thinking about it, and I could not escape the conclusion that ALL gods people talked about were mythical. It was a difficult thing, since I was raised to believe that atheists go to hell. But I couldn't ignore all the facts.

[Sitnam]

Betting on Infinity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU)

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are all hanging out with their "god"... laughing their asses off.

I find it incredible that so many millions of intelligent people can believe in, and worship a god that would allow all the killing and destructive confusion that has existed in his name, for thousands of years now. Especially when this same god was really involved directly and hands on in mankind's affairs early on. So much for the three major Western religions. I also have a problem with omnipotence. If you could no longer learn or experience anything new, what would be the point of continued existence?

The big question: did matter begat intelligence, or did intelligence begat matter? Logically, it makes a lot more sense that intelligence created matter than the other way around, as we manipulate it so well.

The bottom line is, I really don't know.
I do. Matter created intelligence.

[Voyager]

So, my latest thought (and stay with me here) today was that Jesus Christ spread the word of God, there were miracles performed and that is basically what "convinced" the people in this region to belive in God and christianity. (Yes, I may have my facts confused a bit, I am just sketching broad strokes here).
So, the people who knew Jesus and witnessed the miracles certainly have a reason to believe.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But oddly enough, those closest to the so-called miracles were not likely to believe. Early Christianity made little or no headway in Israel, and far more in other parts of the Empire, far from the site of the supposed events. My ancestors back 2,000 years ago didn't seem very convinced.

My question is: If God exist and wants all humans to know and believe in him why was Jesus confined to a single geographical point on earth. The Native Americans and the native Africans would know nothing of Jesus until they were told of his existence by Europeans colonizing their lands. So, in order to believe they had to take a second hand account and believe what they are being told. Why wouldn't God send (for the lack of a better word) a representative to different localations across the Earth so all humans at one point in time would have had first hand knowledge? Becuase he didn't, the majority of the World has to take the word of others that this is true and not a made up story.

This is especially true because Christianity, unlike most other religions of the time, claimed that there were terrible consequences of not believing. I know there are various not very bad circles of hell for virtuous pagans or whatever, but why wait so long as well as not appearing in many places in parallel.

[Voyager]

Some people of varying faiths have what might be described as "unity experiences." That seems to be a common thread. Each person's experience(s) varies but usually includes feelings of extreme bliss, a feeling of expansion of the personal self, and a sense of unity with everything from a blade of grass to stones to other people. Things of our past seem sweet, but inconsequential. Individual religions seem to have no bounds.
Don't you think this argues for some facet of our brain which induces these experiences, not an external force? The implication of this is that they are widespread (true) and can be induced by drugs or things that influence the brain (also true.) If there were a particular God causing them, they'd be localized to the believers of that God, so these experiences argue against any specific religion.


I think God is too big to be comprehended. Those who declare that God does not exist do not know that with scientific certainty anymore than the faithful know. But this is a reminder that not all of us depend just on the words of others. Like you, we depend on our experiences -- our observations. Those moments seem more real than any other moments in my life.

The truth of our experiences does not imply that they map to outside reality. I have some really interesting thoughts and visions sitting in boring meetings right after lunch after a few days of hour hours of sleep. If I start acting on them I hope someone will put me in the booby hatch. These experiences can be the spark of creativity, but they should be tested. Keith Richards might have come up with the hook for "Satisfaction" in his sleep, but I suspect most dreamed up or visioned up ideas are crap.

[Bytegeist]

Actually science does offer an explanation of something from nothing. On the quantum level things do suddenly appear.
The concept of first cause is also answered by that quantum event. The big bang was the beginning of time.

I don't find that that really resolves the mystery.

There is still Something in existence in that case, namely, quantum mechanics, or the laws of physics more generally. From the beginning there existed a set of rules about what sorts of things can exist — quarks, gluons, leptons, and the like — and the various ways in which they can interact. Whether the rules are deterministic or probabilistic or a bit of each doesn't change the bizarre fact that they exist at all, when it doesn't seem especially necessary that they would exist, or have the particular forms they seem to have.

A genuine universe of Nothing would not only be devoid of physical stuff, like matter and energy, but wouldn't have any way of changing state, to become Something.


Therefore no first cause is necessary since then if you say god did it, you have to explain where god came from. That is back to square one,

No argument on that point.

[Voyager]

I don't find that that really resolves the mystery.

There is still Something in existence in that case, namely, quantum mechanics, or the laws of physics more generally. From the beginning there existed a set of rules about what sorts of things can exist — quarks, gluons, leptons, and the like — and the various ways in which they can interact. Whether the rules are deterministic or probabilistic or a bit of each doesn't change the bizarre fact that they exist at all, when it doesn't seem especially necessary that they would exist, or have the particular forms they seem to have.

A genuine universe of Nothing would not only be devoid of physical stuff, like matter and energy, but wouldn't have any way of changing state, to become Something.

There are two possibilities.
1. Stability is fundamental. In that case, you would be right and nothing would yield nothing, and we wouldn't be here.
2. Uncertainty is fundamental, as it is in our universe. That isn't a physical constant, it is a principle. In that case nothing forever is impossible, just as a true vacuum is impossible. If the universe has zero total energy, new universes would inevitably pop up. Most would no doubt collapse again, but at least one was somewhat stable.

I don't know if uncertainty qualifies as a satisfactory reason, but we certainly shouldn't expect any of our human reasons to be the real one.

[The_Truth_Seeker]

Hello everyone.

I am very interested in discussing the existence of God. I was born into a penticostal family, and my father was a pastor in penticostal church. I had to read the Bible, and more than that, I had to memorize passages from it. I had to study it. I had to go to penticostal church all my childhood. When I grew up, my faith in God, disapeared. I began researching about God existance from the day my faith in God dissapeared. Did not find any evidence at all that God, as discribed in Bible, exists. I know the Bible very well, yet I cannot beleive now that the Bible is the word of God. I can explain why I cannot beleive that. If I am not boring you.

[CurtC]

2. Uncertainty is fundamental, as it is in our universe. That isn't a physical constant, it is a principle.

... but where did that uncertainty come from?

[obbn]

Hello everyone.

I am very interested in discussing the existence of God. I was born into a penticostal family, and my father was a pastor in penticostal church. I had to read the Bible, and more than that, I had to memorize passages from it. I had to study it. I had to go to penticostal church all my childhood. When I grew up, my faith in God, disapeared. I began researching about God existance from the day my faith in God dissapeared. Did not find any evidence at all that God, as discribed in Bible, exists. I know the Bible very well, yet I cannot beleive now that the Bible is the word of God. I can explain why I cannot beleive that. If I am not boring you.

I find your story very interesting. I am wondering how your decision concerning the Bible and God has affected your relationship with your family. Are they understanding and respectful of your opinion or has it caused problems? Seems as if it would be a very tough position to be in.

[Voyager]

... but where did that uncertainty come from?

I'm uncertain. :D

Seriously, where would certainty come from?

[Oy!]

For the longest time, I couldn't understand how people could make idols out of clay or metal or any other material, and then worship them. That made no sense to me. If you craft something with your own hands, or watch some other person craft it, that seems to me to pretty much eliminate its potential for divinity.

Then, suddenly, I got it. People originally developed spiritual beliefs for two reasons: one, to make sense of otherwise inexplicable phenomena, such as thunder and lightening; and two, to feel that they had some control over those phenomena. If a god causes rain or drought, then maybe by giving that god something it wants, or by begging it hard enough, you can influence the god to give you the rainfall you need.

But begging or dickering with an amorphous blob that you can't see or hear isn't very satisfying. What you really need is a body, or at least a face - something that you can actually believe might be moved by anything you say or do. Hence, idols. They're not really the gods themselves, but they're a way of at least getting a piece of that spirit to the point where you can beg it for rain or slaughter your animals to sacrifice to it.

Of course, people, being people, quickly realized that claiming the backing of a god was a great way of getting other people to do what you want them to, and thus religion became a huge organizing force. I'm not at all sure that the first large organized societies would have been possible without it, since it's not like there was a government structure or precedent to base them on. Legitimate authority had to be based on something.

As to your original point, obbn, about Jesus only appearing to a small subset of humanity, Dante and other religious scholars have suggested sort of legal waivers for those people who were never exposed to Christian precepts. Virtuous pagans would go to such a nice part of Hell that it would be effectively heaven, except that they'd never come face to face with God. But that wasn't part of original Christianity. As far as the originals were concerned, all the world that mattered was within hearing distance of the Gospel, so it just wasn't a concern.

Today, I suspect that really only your true fundamentalists believe that someone who never even heard of Jesus will inevitably go to Hell. There, you have to look at why people believe what they believe. One of the reasons people have always gone for religion was to get the power of whatever god they're worshipping on their side. It made sense, for example, for a conquered people to adopt the religion of their conquerors, since obviously the conquerors' gods must be more powerful than their own, or they wouldn't have been conquered.

But another reason to believe in a particular religion is to identify as a member of a particular culture. Most of the laws of the Torah were set down during the period of the Babylonian exile for the Jews, and this seems most likely to have been an attempt on the part of the priestly class to maintain a cultural identity independent of that of the Babylonians. And since there are many Jews still today, it seems to have been pretty successful.

Unfortunately, "we are whatever-ish, and therefore different from you, who are not" is not terribly far off from "we are whatever-ish, and therefore better than you." In fact, it's almost inevitable. Humans tend to sort themselves into "us" and "them" based on a wide variety of distinguishing features (such as nation of birth, skin color, shared interests, religion, etc.) and "us" is almost always better than "them." This is a particularly useful feature for a religion. You can join in a religion for free; it requires no skills, no abilities, no talents, no money. All you have to do is say "I believe," and in some cases go through whatever entry ritual is required (such as circumcision for male Jews). Bingo! You're whatever-ish, and therefore automatically superior to everyone who isn't whatever-ish. You don't have to be rich or competent, but you still get to feel superior. That's particularly important to people who don't have a lot else to feel superior about.

Of course, many, perhaps most, religions aren't evangelical and don't claim to have the Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Whole Truth, and you're damned if you don't believe exactly the way I believe. Most sects of Judaism don't, but, oddly, most religions deriving from Judaism seem to. I include hard-core Marxism in amongst those, even though they have switched the State in for God, the writings of Marx and Lenin for the Bible, and the Workers' Paradise for Heaven. But it is equally unfalsifiable, equally dependent on received wisdom, and certainly equally intent on punishing heretics and unbelievers, so I think it qualifies.

[Bytegeist]

If the universe has zero total energy, new universes would inevitably pop up. Most would no doubt collapse again, but at least one was somewhat stable.

Energy? What is this "energy"? Ah right, it's one of the physical properties we find in our universe, alongside mass, charge, spin, "color" (in the QM sense), and so on.

It's not just one conservation law that (presumably) has to be kept, but a textbook's worth of other properties and rules, which — aside from the fact that the whole mess is not logically forbidden — would seem to be only one arbitrary choice from of an infinite set of possibilities.


I don't know if uncertainty qualifies as a satisfactory reason, but we certainly shouldn't expect any of our human reasons to be the real one.

I'm actually trying not to be human here, or earthbound in any way. But sure, whatever the big Reason is, if we could ever discover it, it might not be one we humans would expect or even understand.

[monavis]

God's Word states if you seek Him you will find Him, there is no room for exceptions in that. God does not say if you seek me but you are on a island nation that has not heard of me you are SOL.

To find God you simply have to seek Him, it doesn't matter where you are in the world or what is around you. King David sought the Lord and found Him, David knew Him personally, manifested gifts of the Holy Spirit, yet Jesus was his still to be conceived great great ... grandson.

So you don't have to know the new testament scriptures to know Jesus, if you seek Him you will find Him.

Many Native Americas know Him, know the Holy Spirit (called the Great Spirit) and the Father (called Grandfather). They have the path, the way many know God better then many Christians.

What about the name of Jesus? Is that important, well yes, but not by name. It's important to realize that there is a son of God/ son of man because that is us, it is our inheritance to the kingdom, though we don't have to call Him Jesus. Also there is a female counterpart as well. Scriptures state that you baptize in the name of Jesus, but Jesus states you baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So which one is right. They all are. There is a line of scripture that 'even the demons know that God is one, and they shutter'. You can use any name for God you chose as long as you mean God, as they all are God, equally God as Father is equally God as Son is equally God as Holy Spirit.

Scriptures also state that God is Love, therefore you can baptize in the name of Love, and that opens the door to any name for God that means Love. So all Gods that mean Love is the one true God. When you baptize or act in the name of Love (or any God that means Love), you are taking God's name as your own and recognizing the son of God within yourself - Jesus



The miracles were sort of a failure in that capacity, they were more of what Jesus needed couldn't be handed in the natural, such as needing to make a boat that already left, He had to walk on water to make his ship.

You believe the people who say it is God's word, but there is proof that it is the work of humans, for humans to keep them in line, and for some( they) need to believe and is a help through life, for others it is not, and there are numerous religions and all serve the same purpose. One cannot say the Bible is God's word anymore than the Koran! It is a matter of desire not fact.

[Der Trihs]

If the universe has zero total energy, new universes would inevitably pop up. Most would no doubt collapse again, but at least one was somewhat stable.Energy? What is this "energy"? Ah right, it's one of the physical properties we find in our universe, alongside mass, charge, spin, "color" (in the QM sense), and so on.

It's not just one conservation law that (presumably) has to be kept, but a textbook's worth of other properties and rules, which — aside from the fact that the whole mess is not logically forbidden — would seem to be only one arbitrary choice from of an infinite set of possibilities.Mass is energy, for these purposes. And when you have a near-infinite number of random universes being born then you have a near infinite number of kinds of universes being born as well.

And that assumes that the process is random; there are hypotheses that speculate that there is a form of evolution involved. That if the physical laws of one universe influence those of the universes that spawn from it, then universes that become large and last a long time and perhaps have other qualities will produce more baby universes than those that don't.

[Candyman74]

If God exist and wants all humans to know and believe in him why was Jesus confined to a single geographical point on earth.

That event was a fixed point in time (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Fixed_point_in_time).

[Der Trihs]

And he'd be a really thin film if he was evenly distributed over the earth. :D

[Cheshire Human]

And he'd be a really thin film if he was evenly distributed over the earth. :D

How many roofs can Jesus shingle? Depends on how thin you slice him.

[brocks]

My question is: If God exist and wants all humans to know and believe in him why was Jesus confined to a single geographical point on earth. The Native Americans and the native Africans would know nothing of Jesus until they were told of his existence by Europeans colonizing their lands.

Not according to the Mormons.

But your questions are good ones, and remind me of the first book of "The Age of Reason," by Thomas Paine. Although it was written over 200 years ago, I've never read a better book about the kinds of questions you are asking yourself. You can read it online if you want:

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/

[obbn]

Not according to the Mormons.

But your questions are good ones, and remind me of the first book of "The Age of Reason," by Thomas Paine. Although it was written over 200 years ago, I've never read a better book about the kinds of questions you are asking yourself. You can read it online if you want:

http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/

Thanks for the link. Bookmarked and ready to read.

[Bytegeist]

Mass is energy, for these purposes.

Fine. I'm aware of the equivalence, but my point was larger than that.


And when you have a near-infinite number of random universes being born then you have a near infinite number of kinds of universes being born as well.

And that assumes that the process is random; there are hypotheses that speculate that there is a form of evolution involved. ...

And I look forward to the cosmologists' future hypotheses and discoveries along these lines.

However, all you've done here is push back the Mystery of Existence onto a "multiverse" that obeys its own higher set of rules — rules on how it spawns ordinary universes and imbues them with their individual sets of rules and properties. And if there's some kind of evolution of universes going on, as you suggest, that implies the multiverse has an "Arrow of Time" of its own. Interesting. Is the multiverse getting more structured as it ages? Was it a smaller or simpler thing, in its own past? Does it have an origin? Does it have an ending?

But just at a basic level, why is there a multiverse anyway? Why would it go to the trouble of existing? How is it, really, that a bunch of mathematical rules and properties get realized into physical form, in any context whatsoever? Universe or multiverse, it doesn't matter.

I don't expect answers to these kinds of questions. (Not today anyway. It's Saturday.) I can understand some people think it's a waste of time even pondering them. My main point has only been that — as of yet, and probably forever — there is no known answer to the question: Why is there Something instead of Nothing?

[Der Trihs]

But just at a basic level, why is there a multiverse anyway? One hypothesis I've heard: Nothingness is unstable. There was nothing to stop it from existing. If there were no physical laws then there'd be nothing to prevent them from coming into being. And you need only a simple set of laws with inheritance to get the evolutionary process up and running.

[Triskadecamus]

So, the inevitable consequence of nothing, is everything?

Tris

[kanicbird]

You believe the people who say it is God's word,
This statement is false, God verifies His word directly.
but there is proof that it is the work of humans, for humans to keep them in line, and for some( they) need to believe and is a help through life, for others it is not, and there are numerous religions and all serve the same purpose. One cannot say the Bible is God's word anymore than the Koran! It is a matter of desire not fact.

Would you not agree that writing is a creative act? I hope so. I offer the following:

2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4

This would mean that all writings are created through Jesus. And the reason for this statement:
25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Evey book is of God, and every other piece of writings, everything on the internet, every scribble everything is His and nothing was created without Him.

[cmyk]

I hold that absolute nothingness cannot be measured or defined in any way that's meaningful by our meager, yet surprisingly resourceful minds.

If taken at face value, the mere existence of existence, should dispel the concept of nothingness as meaningless and crystalize into the idea that: Everything just always was. Now, *everything* may take on different states of existence, but there must've always been a fundamental medium for existence to function in. What this medium is, I have no idea, but it by definition cannot be nothingness, for true, absolute nothingness is a dead end of infinite non-existence (regardless of the relatively new quantum findings we've discovered. Because they've only been observed in an already existing universe. If you want to say this is the "ground-state" of nothingness, that's fine, but then we're not talking about true absolute nothingness... we're talking about the existence of a new fundamental medium wherein quantum mechanisms can function and bring forth improbable things like the Big Bang, and so forth).

To speculate that this *medium* might be God, isn't a dumb question, per se, but certainly beyond the realm of the scientific method, a major jump to a conclusion, and perhaps wholly and completely unanswerable, IMHO.

[terrim]

I was born Catholic and raised Christian. Not much of a diffrence there but a few more holidays or a few more prayer serviouses (not fond of the kneeling standing thing) I have now been Wiccan for over 15 years. I don't disagree with Christian or Catholic religion, I don't think one religion is better than the other. I do know that if you read your history thourghly (sorry if I spelled that wrong) pagen religion was the first and is the oldest religion in the world......not saying it is the one everyone should conform to because of it. History shows us that witches were burnt at the stake for useing herbs and spells to cure people or find true loves......we believed in not one God but many. So us uncivilsed people who believed in the sun and moon gods were killed. Being Wiccan I worship the Goodess of the moon and her consort the sun, but we also believe that there is a higher God who has created us all including the sun and the moon. We thank mother earth for providing us with food to eat and water to drink, we give our thanks to the moon and sun for helping things grow for mother earth.....does that mean I think all other religions are false? NOPE. I respect all religion because in one way or another we all believe that one main God created us all. Each religion has its own structures, it's own history. Do I believe that Jesues Christ died for our sins and was the son of God....No I'm sorry i don't. Do I believe that the Bible is the words of jesues or God...No sorry I don't. The bible is a story book, it is writen by people who put their views down as to what they think happened in the days of a man named Jesues who walked the earth tring to convert people to Christianity and Catholasism (always spell that wrong) Over time things were added and deleted from the book by scribes. Newer versions were created. Does that mean it never happened......No. it just means that every person has their own beliefs and no one is right or wrong. I don't think Athiests are wrong either, they just prefer to think of the big bang theory because their minds are more scientific. Some people prefer science and some prefer higher beings. No one is right or wrong. It's what we chose to believe in. I will not disrespect others religse beliefs and I will not push my religion on others. As the bible says..."love thy neighbore" My religion states..."do as you will harm none" are these not the same? Most religions have a moral code they ask you to follow, the ten comandments are worded slightly different from the code that Wiccans follow but have the very same meaning. I could sit here and write on and on and compare each religion and give you the majority of the codes or commandments to each religion and they may be worded different but say the same. Bottom line is this..........Religion no matter what type it is teaches all of us to respect one another, love one another, be kind to one another and help your fellow man. Treat the world you live in with respect and give back to the soil what you take from it. This includes those that believe in the scientific aspect of it. So no matter what you believe or what God you believe in we all have the same values and moral codes. From the day we are born we are taught to respect others.....so why is this such an issue with Religion? I respect every person I encounter in a day weither they are brown, black, purple, green. It doesn't matter what the persons race is or their religion we as a human race should be respecting each other. We may not like or agree to a persons personal choices but that is one person not an entire race or religion. I swear if we as in all humans took a few moments to learn about a persons culture or religion we would be better for it. We may have different religiouse beliefs and different cultures but in a strange funny way we all believe in the same thing......Humanity.

[Der Trihs]

Paragraphs, please. Paragraphs make a post much easier to read.

I respect all religion because in one way or another we all believe that one main God created us all.Wrong. Some religions have no gods.


it just means that every person has their own beliefs and no one is right or wrong. I don't think Athiests are wrong either, they just prefer to think of the big bang theory because their minds are more scientific. Some people prefer science and some prefer higher beings. No one is right or wrong. It's what we chose to believe in.:rolleyes: Reality is not a matter of opinion; some people are right, and some are wrong. And given all the mutual contradictions between religions, that vast majority of religious beliefs must be wrong.

Bottom line is this..........Religion no matter what type it is teaches all of us to respect one another, love one another, be kind to one another and help your fellow man. Or to kill, slaughter, tyrannize and enslave them.

So no matter what you believe or what God you believe in we all have the same values and moral codes. From the day we are born we are taught to respect others.....so why is this such an issue with Religion?Because it isn't true. We are not all told to respect each other, we don't all have the same moral code, and religion most certainly isn't universally teaching those qualities. On the contrary, there are believers everywhere spreading hatred and bigotry.

We may have different religiouse beliefs and different cultures but in a strange funny way we all believe in the same thing......Humanity.No, hatred and disdain for humanity is a common feature of religion. We're all sinful, unclean monsters to many believers.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I was born Catholic and raised Christian. Not much of a diffrence there but a few more holidays or a few more prayer serviouses (not fond of the kneeling standing thing) I have now been Wiccan for over 15 years. I don't disagree with Christian or Catholic religion, I don't think one religion is better than the other.
Catholicism is Christian.

[fumster]

I was born Catholic and raised Christian. ... I have now been Wiccan for over 15 years. ... Being Wiccan I worship the Goodess of the moon and her consort the sun, but we also believe that there is a higher God who has created us all including the sun and the moon. We thank mother earth for providing us with food to eat and water to drink, we give our thanks to the moon and sun for helping things grow for mother earth.....God help us.

[Bryan Ekers]

Being Wiccan I worship the Goodess of the moon and her consort the sun, but we also believe that there is a higher God who has created us all including the sun and the moon. We thank mother earth for providing us with food to eat and water to drink, we give our thanks to the moon and sun for helping things grow for mother earth.....

Well, assuming this is serious, my follow-up questions are simple:

1. Do you want "mother earth provides" taught alongside photosynthesis, agriculture and irrigation in the classroom?

2. Would you vote for a political candidate at any level of government who said that the goals of question 1 were a priority?

I've no objection to your belief system. I just don't want it potentially interfering with my life.

[spiirit]

Hello All,
I guess I much have too much time on my hands because it leads me to think critically on things such as God. I was raised a Catholic and I do believe that there is a God. What disturbs me is that when I try to think of the existence of God in a reasonable light I sometimes question what I believe. Of course it bothers me that I question my faith, but I guess that is what humans with a brain do.
So, my latest thought (and stay with me here) today was that Jesus Christ spread the word of God, there were miracles performed and that is basically what "convinced" the people in this region to belive in God and christianity. (Yes, I may have my facts confused a bit, I am just sketching broad strokes here).
So, the people who knew Jesus and witnessed the miracles certainly have a reason to believe. My question is: If God exist and wants all humans to know and believe in him why was Jesus confined to a single geographical point on earth. The Native Americans and the native Africans would know nothing of Jesus until they were told of his existence by Europeans colonizing their lands. So, in order to believe they had to take a second hand account and believe what they are being told. Why wouldn't God send (for the lack of a better word) a representative to different localations across the Earth so all humans at one point in time would have had first hand knowledge? Becuase he didn't, the majority of the World has to take the word of others that this is true and not a made up story.
I hope that I have made some sense in what I am trying to get across. I truly do believe that there is a God, but sometimes my thinking side convices me that our Christian God is no different than the Sun or Moon Gods of the early, less civalized cultures. It makes me very torn inside. Any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.
-----------------------------------------------------
Saviours-

You must read the bible again... you missed something and I have found that every word is vey important to prevent confusion.

In this case see KJV 1611 version: I am sorry but these latter day's see so many new issues of the word of God it has become most cumbersone to isolate exact scripture as remembered. I must quote as I remember it thusly- Two of the original disciples returning from theit mission of spreading the gospel reported to the Christ "Master, we met another who was teaching the same as we, and we forbade him", whereupon the Lord said "Forbid him not, for whosever is with us cannot be against us".
----------------------------
This is a tid-bit as there are many such in the Bible and easy to be passed over. At any rate, there is reference to at least one other "outside source" of the same gospel being preached in another area. Now, this information is not entered into the scriptures by chance... it has a message to all that other messengers were out there at the same time. I have found that the scriptures when well learned, do not leave a single stone unturned when it comes to a supposed confusion... it is always only that the reader is lacking in past diligence of their studies.
-----------------------------
It has been my experience that the Bible must be read cover to cover at least three times. 1st. is grade school, 2nd is College,3rd. is University (by the Holy Spirit). We are not spoon-fed the finer points but must put forth the effort at learning with a true heart and an earnest desire.

Tom W.

[monavis]

This statement is false, God verifies His word directly.


Would you not agree that writing is a creative act? I hope so. I offer the following:



This would mean that all writings are created through Jesus. And the reason for this statement:


Evey book is of God, and every other piece of writings, everything on the internet, every scribble everything is His and nothing was created without Him.

That is your belief and you are entitled to it ,but it is not FACT! All the writers were human,so your belief is in what a human wrote, said was God's word, or inspired by God. Of course if the Psalmist was correct then every one is God, and God can be contradictory.

By your reasoning, I am also speaking for God, so God can disagree with Him self?

[monavis]

-----------------------------------------------------
Saviours-

You must read the bible again... you missed something and I have found that every word is vey important to prevent confusion.

In this case see KJV 1611 version: I am sorry but these latter day's see so many new issues of the word of God it has become most cumbersone to isolate exact scripture as remembered. I must quote as I remember it thusly- Two of the original disciples returning from theit mission of spreading the gospel reported to the Christ "Master, we met another who was teaching the same as we, and we forbade him", whereupon the Lord said "Forbid him not, for whosever is with us cannot be against us".
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This is a tid-bit as there are many such in the Bible and easy to be passed over. At any rate, there is reference to at least one other "outside source" of the same gospel being preached in another area. Now, this information is not entered into the scriptures by chance... it has a message to all that other messengers were out there at the same time. I have found that the scriptures when well learned, do not leave a single stone unturned when it comes to a supposed confusion... it is always only that the reader is lacking in past diligence of their studies.
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It has been my experience that the Bible must be read cover to cover at least three times. 1st. is grade school, 2nd is College,3rd. is University (by the Holy Spirit). We are not spoon-fed the finer points but must put forth the effort at learning with a true heart and an earnest desire.

Tom W.

Over the years I have read the Bible cover to cover at least 24 times,then I started to think about what I read, and realized it was contradictory from one author to another; saw many things that were not, or could not be true. Then I realized that what I was reading was not of God but of humans.
It is a matter of what one desires or feel they need to get through life, some use their faith for good, some for selfish reasons, some for evil. It is a tool used for what ever the believer want to use it for!