When you read the word "gorgon," what image comes to mind?

[Skald the Rhymer]

Poll in a second. I'd explain my interest but I don't care enough.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Green-skinned woman with snakes for hair.

[bump]

The stop-motion animated Gorgon from the old-school "Clash of the Titans" movie.

[MrDibble]

Poll in a second. I'd explain my interest but I don't care enough.

Ugly, scaly woman with snake for hair, fangs, the whole Medusa bit.

[Meatros]

Medusa

[Captain Amazing]

Medusa.

[Jophiel]

The stop-motion animated Gorgon from the old-school "Clash of the Titans" movie.
That's my first thought. It's immediately followed by Carrie Donovan (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfljl8Rnh21qfv0zv.jpg), who the Onion once referred to as an "Owl-headed gorgon" in a Snapshot poll and that's somehow stuck with me over all these years.

[Bayard]

This (http://s.uvlist.net/l/y2011/01/79716.jpg), only in monochrome. Spent lots of hours playng that game.

ETA: Not trying to be funny. That's really what comes to mind. I would have had to look up the mythology meaning.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Medusa.

Medusa


Fool of a

:: pauses to check libel schedule ::

Kentaur!

Saying Medusa is no answer, as the thread question could just as well be rephrased to read "What should Medusa look like?"

What do they teach in these schools, anyway?

[The Devil's Grandmother]

I think of Ernest saying "Never met such a Gorgon… I don’t really know what a Gorgon is like, but I am quite sure that Lady Bracknell is one. In any case, she is a monster, without being a myth, which is rather unfair… "

[Thudlow Boink]

I think of Ernest saying "Never met such a Gorgon… I don’t really know what a Gorgon is like, but I am quite sure that Lady Bracknell is one. In any case, she is a monster, without being a myth, which is rather unfair… "Ditto!

[thelurkinghorror]

The first two only. They don't have to be ugly, but on the other hand, not hot because Vallejo's muscley women don't do much for me.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Ditto!

Please leave Patrick Swayze out of this.

The first two only. They don't have to be ugly, but on the other hand, not hot because Vallejo's muscley women don't do much for me.

When you criticize Borish Vallejo you are supposed to do so much more vehemently, using the phrase talentless semi-pornographic Etruscan hack at least twice. There's a rule somewheres.

Anyway, the notion that gorgons were beautiful rather than hideous (even post transformation) did not begin with that talentless semipornographic Etruscan hack.

[Oakminster]

I'd expect a large, bull-like creature, possibly metallic, with a petrification special attack, either by gaze or breath. Dunno where my Monster Manual is, but it is definitely not at the office, so I can't check quicky.

Also think it can only be hit by magic weapons. If you kill one in its lair, it might have pretty good loot from previous victims...

[Zeldar]

Louise Bogan's poem (http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/medusa-2/) which is one of my favorites for capturing a mood as well as a scene, and the fact that I think of Gordon the Gorgon because I'm weird that way. Boris and Frazetta can do the illustrations, too.

[Ferret Herder]

#1-3, with #5-7 being optional but not required.

[Odesio]

Medusa with the hair of snakes. Also, Dungeons and Dragons had a monster called a Gorgon that was some sort of bull from hell covered with black scales.

[hogarth]

The D&D one first, then the medusa. It's usually easy to tell which is which by context.

[emulsified]

My choice wasn't in the list:

@

[outlierrn]

Skald, you forgot an option for ST:TOS, ep #59

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgan_(Star_Trek)

[Swords to Plowshares]

kills with gaze, snakes for hair, could be hot or not.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Skald, you forgot an option for ST:TOS, ep #59

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgan_(Star_Trek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgan_%28Star_Trek))


No I didn't. I IGNORED that episode. I'm sure we can all agree

:: pulls out battle axe, starts casually honing its edge ::

that it was a mistake from start to finish and should never be spoken of again.

:: chops head off captive bonobo ::

Right?

[vislor]

I'd expect a large, bull-like creature, possibly metallic, with a petrification special attack, either by gaze or breath. Dunno where my Monster Manual is, but it is definitely not at the office, so I can't check quicky.

Also think it can only be hit by magic weapons. If you kill one in its lair, it might have pretty good loot from previous victims...

This. I didn't realize it was synonymous with Medusa for years and so still think of the DND monster first.

[Tanbarkie]

Cheese.

[Alessan]

Another for the D&D monster.

(Petrfying breath, BTW. It's from the Elemental Plane of Earth).

[Kamino Neko]

Barring other context, snake haired women who turn people to stone, they're so ugly.

Other details can be layered on that, or, in particular contexts I can accept other things (the love child of a bull and a disco ball in D&D, beautiful other than snakey features in SO many context, etc), but that's the basic, immediate reaction to hearing the word.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Another for the D&D monster.

(Petrfying breath, BTW. It's from the Elemental Plane of Earth).

I've never played D&D. Oak's post is honestly the first time I'd ever heard of such a use of the word gorgon.

[Oredigger77]

I thought Medusa was a gorgon but necessarily representative of her breed so I just went with the petrifying looks since I figured the snake hair was optional.

[Kamino Neko]

The more typical Gorgon-type (in the 'pretty except for being snakey' mode) is called a Medusa in D&D. (And the males of the species are a different monster who look a bit more human and have slightly different powers.)

[aruvqan]

I grew up reading Bullfinches Mythology, so the classic Medusa springs to mind first.

[elfkin477]

Woman with snakes for hair. But she might be shaped like a boat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_in_the_Gemma_Doyle_Trilogy#Gorgon).

[Skald the Rhymer]

I grew up reading Bullfinches Mythology, so the classic Medusa springs to mind first.

[grammar fascist]

I'm sure you meant Bulfinch's, so I'm going to pretend that's what you typed.

[/grammar fascist]

Also, I'm not sure I remember Professor Bulfinch including the bit about the wings & the taloned hands, but those attributes date from antiquity.

[Der Trihs]

The stop-motion animated Gorgon from the old-school "Clash of the Titans" movie.This for me too. Snakes for hair, serpentine lower body. Second choice would be a woman with snake hair, although that version I tend to picture as being beautiful except for the snakes.

[Bill Door]

Normal woman, snakes for hair, her gaze turns people to stone.

[gatorslap]

I think of that movie Small Soldiers. They're actually called gorgonites, but that was the first thing I thought of.

[Chronos]

Man, we really need to get CalMeacham in this thread-- He's one of the foremost experts on the gorgon in mythology. And I'm not sure he'd have checked off any of the options in the poll (his answer would be more like "it's a death's-head").

As for me, I'm aware of the D&D version of the gorgon (which IIRC comes from some medieval bestiary), but the first image that comes to mind is a snake-headed woman.

And you missed an opportunity for the snarky none-of-the-above option: "How should I know? If I'd ever seen one I obviously wouldn't be typing this".

[DocCathode]

Another vote for the stone scaled bovine monster from D&D.

[Skald the Rhymer]

And you missed an opportunity for the snarky none-of-the-above option: "How should I know? If I'd ever seen one I obviously wouldn't be typing this".


:mad:

Leave the jackassery to me, perfesser. Do you see me propounding on Maxwell's equations in GQ?

This for me too. Snakes for hair, serpentine lower body. Second choice would be a woman with snake hair, although that version I tend to picture as being beautiful except for the snakes.

A woman with a serpentine lower body sounds more like a lamia to me.

[DocCathode]

A woman with a serpentine lower body sounds more like a lamia to me.

Well, maybe she'll post here too.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Wasn't Gorgon Batman's police buddy :confused:

[Der Trihs]

A woman with a serpentine lower body sounds more like a lamia to me.
I tend to think of lamia as serpent women who eat humans rather than turn them to stone.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I tend to think of lamia as serpent women who eat humans rather than turn them to stone.

My point was that, before the web, I never saw an image purported to be that of a gorgon which featured a lower body.

[tracer]

You know what I think of when I hear "Gorgon"?

The old commercial for the Atari 2600 game Atlantis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O6GRGdo-no

[DocCathode]

The second thing I think of is the image of Medusa from the board game By Jove. According to Cal Meacham this image is very close to ancient depictions of the gorgons.

[E-Sabbath]

I'd expect a large, bull-like creature, possibly metallic, with a petrification special attack, either by gaze or breath. Dunno where my Monster Manual is, but it is definitely not at the office, so I can't check quicky.

Also think it can only be hit by magic weapons. If you kill one in its lair, it might have pretty good loot from previous victims...

What he said.

[Der Trihs]

My point was that, before the web, I never saw an image purported to be that of a gorgon which featured a lower body.Clash of the Titans was from 1981, and that's where I got the image.

[Miller]

The D&D gorgon. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG137.jpg) Also what I think of when I hear the word.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Clash of the Titans was from 1981, and that's where I got the image.

Never saw it. I don't watch movies with Harry Hamlin in them. This rule has served me for many moons and I see no reason to change it. ;)

[DocCathode]

Never saw it. I don't watch movies with Harry Hamlin in them. This rule has served me for many moons and I see no reason to change it. ;)

You're really missing out on this one. Harryhausen is a genius! Dynamation!

[Satchmo]

The stop-motion animated Gorgon from the old-school "Clash of the Titans" movie.

This also, for me has been the standard for Gorgons. Also the similar Medusa from "The 7 Faces of Dr. Lao". Tony Randall made an ... interesting ... looking woman.

I have seen a movie with Harry Hamlin in it and lived to tell the tale. Not been turned to stone, though I am a bit achey from time to time.

[Roderick Femm]

I think of Ernest saying "Never met such a Gorgon… I don’t really know what a Gorgon is like, but I am quite sure that Lady Bracknell is one. In any case, she is a monster, without being a myth, which is rather unfair… "Not really Ernest of course, it was Jack Worthing (since he was in town when he said it). But this was the first thing that came to my mind, too. Wilde lives!

Anyway, to the point of some earlier posts, Medusa was a Gorgon, but not the only one. Although apparently they all looked pretty much the same:

...the term commonly refers to any of three sisters who had hair of living, venomous snakes, and a horrifying visage that turned those who beheld it to stone,

Nothing in there about scaly skin, and I think that would be confusing the snaky hair with a snaky body.


Roddy

[Ephemera]

My ex-girlfriend.

[The Devil's Grandmother]

Not really Ernest of course, it was Jack Worthing (since he was in town when he said it). But this was the first thing that came to my mind, too. Wilde lives!
You've got it backwards: Jack in the country and, Ernest in town. That, my dear boy, is the whole truth plain and simple.

[Balance]

Anyway, to the point of some earlier posts, Medusa was a Gorgon, but not the only one. Although apparently they all looked pretty much the same:
I believe I have read arguments that in the earliest versions of the myth, Medusa actually was the only one, and Stheno and Euryale were added due to a general tendency toward making female mythological figures into trines. They certainly seem to be afterthoughts to the story, from being transformed because they stood by Medusa when she was punished to unsuccessfully pursuing Perseus. Maybe CalMeacham can shed some light on the matter if he pops in.

Stheno hasn't gone entirely without attention, though--in City of Heroes, the leader and mother-goddess of a faction of semi-anthropomorphic snake people is an ancient Incarnate named Stheno. She is implied to be the original.

As an aside, I would have thought the Gorgons would be kind of a touchy subject for Skald....

[outlierrn]

No I didn't. I IGNORED that episode. I'm sure we can all agree

:: pulls out battle axe, starts casually honing its edge ::

that it was a mistake from start to finish and should never be spoken of again.

:: chops head off captive bonobo ::

Right?

Well, please yourself, it's still the first thing I thought of, but you shouldn't skew your data set if you want results that you can use.


Oh, and BTW, Bonobo's don't intimidate me.

[devilsknew]

First... Harryhausen's Clash of the Titans Medusa. Second, Gorgonic Greek Coins (http://www.google.com/search?q=gorgon%20coin&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1024&bih=578)... saw some of them in a museum once.

[CalMeacham]

Well, I'm prejudiced, you know, ince I have a Dog in this fight. Or a Gorgon in this fight.

Some thoughts:

1.) The Classical (i.e, really old) image of the Gorgon does NOT have snakes for hair. Sometimes it'll have snakes in its hair, but usually not.

2.) its defining characteristics are oversized staring eyes, a very round face, a broad, painful-looking grin, and, very often, a beard. Like on the cover of my book (taken from a red-figure dish in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City):
http://www.amazon.com/Medusa-Solving-Stephen-R-Wilk/dp/0195124316

3.) All of which suggests that that iconic face might not really be the Gorgon of Perseus fame, but might be some other face. I suggest possible alternatives in the book, two of which are Deimos and Phobos, Hades' minions, which we don't really have pictures of, but which probably didn't look like this:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoS15Ak9OwUoAi8KJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cnMybzJvBHNsawNpbWc-?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DDisney%2BPanic%2BFear%2BPictures% 26n%3D30%26ei%3Dutf-8%26fr%3Dyfp-t-701%26b%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic&w=349&h=260&imgurl=images.wikia.com%2Ffanfiction%2Fimages%2F9%2F9a%2FPain_%2526_Panic.PNG&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Ffanfiction.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FPain_and_Panic&size=104.2+KB&name=Pain+and+Panic+-+Fan+Fiction+Wiki+-+You+can+write+and+show+your+own+...&p=Disney+Panic+Fear+Pictures&oid=1f78caff1fd78eb916d7eefaa581bb9f&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-701&tt=Pain+and+Panic+-+Fan+Fiction+Wiki+-+You+can+write+and+show+your+own+...&b=0&ni=30&no=1&tab=organic&sigr=11facr5ed&sigb=13keatldt&sigi=11qjfco2n&.crumb=.cVAJm9jvbC


As I say, there are a lot of other candidates for what those jheads might mean to represent, including the Erinyes/Eumenides.Furies, the Fates, the Graiae, the Praxidikae, and Hecate. See Chapter 4 in my book.

3. Although Apollodorus tells us that there were three Gorgons, Stheno, Euryale, and Medusa, and that Perseus slew one, other sources suggest that Zeus slew a gorgon, or that Athena slew one. In one vase painting of the Birth of Athena, Ares is carrying a shield with a Gorgon's head on it, suggesting that neither Perseus nor Athena slew a Gorgon.

4. All of which says that there's no complete consistency among all the myths. I think of Apollodoris as a comic=-book Geek who tries to set and maintain a consistency among all the myths, but it's impossible to be completely consistent. Greek mythology really needed a Crisis on Earth Greek, even before Apollodorus.

5.) Apollodorus, who got the information from a fragment called The Shield of Herakles (supposed by many to be by Hesiod, but almost certainly not), described them as having wings, boar's tusks, and bristly hair. But gorgon images are a grab-bag. Besides the riound-faces-with-big-eyes-and gritted teeth I describe above, there are gorgons with the bodies of horses, like centaurs, and gorgons with the bodies of birds. Later on in Greek art (and especially in Hellenistic art), Gorgons of the "Beautiful" type were popular, with plump but good-looking female faces, no broad grin, and a pathetic look in their eyes. Sometimes they had, in their hair, wings instead of snakes. Versace uses this kind of gorgon in their logo:

http://logomentor.com/versace-logo

6.) The scaly-faced gorgon and the gorgon with the snake for a body seem to originate with Ray Harryhausen's original Clash of the Titans. He'd already done an exotic dancer with a snake body in The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad, so this wasn't much of a stretch.

10.) Although you find examples of gorgons with snakes in place of hair in Classical literature and art, they're rare. (Hercukles had a vial with Gorgon Hair in it, and it wasn't snakes) Even in the early Renaissance, Gorgons tended to have snakes in [i/] their hair. Gorgons invariable pictured with heads of snakes-only is really relatively recent. (And it hasn't been good for the film industry -- their pre-CGI gorgons looked pretty unconvincing, except for Harryhausen's. Look at the gorgon's in hammer's [i]The Gorgon, or in The Seven Faces of Doctor Lao.

11.) Then there are the really weird gorgons, that don't fall into any category. By a historical accident, bestiaries talked about a northg African creature called the Catoblepas, which supposed to be the same as the Gorgon. The icture of it in Edward Topsell's The History of Four-Footed Beasts looks appropriately weird:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoX3NBk9OnVcAF4CJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cnMybzJvBHNsawNpbWc-?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dcatoblepas%2 6fr%3Dyfp-t-701%26b%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic&w=397&h=285&imgurl=www.eaudrey.com%2Fmyth%2Fimages%2Fcatoblepas.gif&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eaudrey.com%2Fmyth%2Fcatoblepas.htm&size=20.8+KB&name=Catoblepas&p=catoblepas&oid=4918734a28b086a8b09a781927f46e42&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-701&tt=Catoblepas&b=0&ni=30&no=14&tab=organic&sigr=11a2mgb2k&sigb=1372j7e3c&sigi=11a4r64p8&.crumb=.cVAJm9jvbC

Then there's the Gorgon as imagined by Carlo Rambaldi for the Italian film Perseus Against the Gorgon (Released in the US as Son of Hercules Vs. the Gorgon, which is seriously messed up, since Hercules was Perseus' fifth-generation grandchild). Rambaldi is the guy who did the King Kong hands for the 1976 version of King Kong, and the head for the original 1979 Alien, the alien at the end of Close Encounters, and E.T. huimself, among other things -- a genius with hydraulic technology. His Gorgon looks like an evil tree with a single big eye. If you look close, the "branches" seem to bifurcate into mouths, like snakes. In the close-up shot where Perseus puts out its eye (instead of beheading it -- it has no head) you can see a slit pupil:

http://galeon.com/traditionalfx/makeup-monsters/Perseo-Medusa.html


The bottom line is that, although there's a sort of "baseline" gorgon myth and appearance from Apollodorus and standard Greek Pottery art, even in ythe ancient world there was a lot of variation (I haven't been at all exhaustive), and since the Renaissance, peope have felt free to re-interpreet the image in all sorts of ways. I've seen Gorgons with Tentacles for hair, or with penises, or with many different kinds of snakes. Beautiful Gorgons and ugly gorgons, Gorgons with smooth skin and with scaly skin.

[Sam A. Robrin]

I think specifically of the Tony Randall Medusa also. Though a close second would be the Inhuman whose introductory appearance in Fantastic Four #44 was also the debut of Joe Sinnott as inker, whose tintinnabulatin' talents ushered in a whole new era of that magnificent Marvel magic...! [If this be annoyance, make the most of it.]

[njtt]

In his time, the great 19th century French novelist Émile Zola was so famous, and so celebrated for his sharp wit, that many people became petrified with nerves upon being introduced him. He was the Big Cheese of French literature.

[devilsknew]

So, Cal... what's the coinage, the money connection? Is there some antipodean reasoning here, that isn't so obvious to our current mythology? I know we generally put historical leaders and signs of deities of fortune or good fortune on our modern coins.. Some other mythological figures and symbols like lady liberty. Is the Gorgon a signifier of some sort of fortuitousness or deity (Apollonian/Nike) myth on greek money. Is it a good or bad omen?

[GuanoLad]

I think of the big green monster in the sea in the original Clash Of The Titans promo images (http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2010Q3/kraken-clash-of-the-titans.jpg). But I see that was actually the Kraken. But immediately afterward I think of Medusa.

Which makes me wonder why I get it confused.

[Chef Troy]

The first thing I thought of was Magician Humfrey's wife. Then I thought of Gorgonzola cheese.

Now I'm hungry.

[CalMeacham]

So, Cal... what's the coinage, the money connection? Is there some antipodean reasoning here, that isn't so obvious to our current mythology? I know we generally put historical leaders and signs of deities of fortune or good fortune on our modern coins.. Some other mythological figures and symbols like lady liberty. Is the Gorgon a signifier of some sort of fortuitousness or deity (Apollonian/Nike) myth on greek money. Is it a good or bad omen?

I don't knoqw. Gorgons show up on a lot of coinage from the Greek world (much of it in Greek-controlled areas like southern Italy and Asia Minor). You can buy them in coin shops or see them on sale online. The Boston Museum of Fine Arts has a big collection of them. Many of the faces on these don't look much like what we'd call "gorgons" at all -- they look like somewhat insane peoople with wild eyes and their tongues sticking out.


One reason is that Gorgoneia (that's the technical name for Gorgon Head depictions) have been accused of being used to fill in "any round space", and they do show up on shields, doorknobs, and round antefixes (ceramic tiles along the edges of roofs), so it's not that surprising that they show up on coins. I dount if there's anything much deeper than that -- I don't think they're performing some protective or apotropaic function on the money.

[CalMeacham]

In his time, the great 19th century French novelist Émile Zola was so famous, and so celebrated for his sharp wit, that many people became petrified with nerves upon being introduced him. He was the Big Cheese of French literature.

Cute. I have one of Craig Swanson's Perspicuity shirts with Gorgon Zola on it:

http://www.zazzle.com/gorgon_zola_shirt-235431545973410624



Better image of drawing:

http://www.zazzle.com/gorgon_zola_poster_or_print-228481622824999826

[Kozmik]

Small Soldiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Soldiers).

[Grumman]

"We're not sure what one looks like, so to be safe, nobody look at anything until we're out of here." (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=135215)
(yes, it was written about a basilisk and not a gorgon, but it still fits)

I think of a gorgon as a woman with snakes for hair with a petrifying gaze, who may or may not be hot, and may or may not have scaly skin.

[Suburban Plankton]

Sorry Skald, but I gotta put in another vote for Melvin Belli

Here's a picture, since you seem to have forgotten

http://www.70disco.com/startrek/frienang.htm

:D

[Chef Troy]

I just wanted to chime in with the obligatory Oglaf cartoon, "Snakeskin." (NSFW -- spoilered to satisfy the two-click rule.)

http://www.oglaf.com/snakeskin/

[Balance]

5.) Apollodorus, who got the information from a fragment called The Shield of Herakles (supposed by many to be by Hesiod, but almost certainly not), described them as having wings, boar's tusks, and bristly hair. But gorgon images are a grab-bag. Besides the riound-faces-with-big-eyes-and gritted teeth I describe above, there are gorgons with the bodies of horses, like centaurs, and gorgons with the bodies of birds.
Would the chronology of the images support the idea that "gorgon" started off as a sort of generic term for "monster" (having its roots in "dreadful" and all), and later came to be strongly associated with a specific Gorgon? Like "dread beasts" -> "the dread beast, Medusa" -> "the Dread Beast"?* Or did the mix of images persist after the Medusa story was well established? (This thread finally reminded me to buy your book...now I just need to read it.)
Greek mythology really needed a Crisis on Earth Greek, even before Apollodorus.
I just want to let you know, I'm yoinking this turn of phrase and keeping it in reserve on the off-chance I get an opportunity to use it. I promise to give you credit, should the occasion arise. :D

*The number of times I misplaced the letter "r" while typing this sentence is somewhat worrisome.

[Chronos]

Quoth CalMeacham: In one vase painting of the Birth of Athena, Ares is carrying a shield with a Gorgon's head on it, suggesting that neither Perseus nor Athena slew a Gorgon. It's my understanding that classical art wasn't meant to represent a chronology. Athena's shield has a gorgon-head on it because she or one of her favored mortals slew a gorgon. At her birth, she has her shield. You know it's her shield because it has the gorgon-head on it, and that's how her shield is recognized. The fact that the gorgon-slaying didn't occur until after the depicted scene is irrelevant.

[CalMeacham]

Quoth CalMeacham:It's my understanding that classical art wasn't meant to represent a chronology. Athena's shield has a gorgon-head on it because she or one of her favored mortals slew a gorgon. At her birth, she has her shield. You know it's her shield because it has the gorgon-head on it, and that's how her shield is recognized. The fact that the gorgon-slaying didn't occur until after the depicted scene is irrelevant.


But it's not Athena's shield, sitting around waiting for her to use -- it's Ares' shield, and he's holding it as his own.


as for "not reprresenting a chronology, you're quite right that this is often the case. There's a black-figure pot here at the Boston MFA that has Perseus, rushing over to Athena, having just beheaded Medusa, and with her head in his kibisis (bag). But Athena clearly is wearing her aegis, with a gorgon head already on it. Sometimes the apparent contradictions in Greek vase-paintings is enough to drive you nuts.

[CalMeacham]

Would the chronology of the images support the idea that "gorgon" started off as a sort of generic term for "monster" (having its roots in "dreadful" and all), and later came to be strongly associated with a specific Gorgon? Like "dread beasts" -> "the dread beast, Medusa" -> "the Dread Beast"?* Or did the mix of images persist after the Medusa story was well established? (This thread finally reminded me to buy your book...now I just need to read it.)


I hadn't heard of any etymology that derived "Gorgon" from "Dreadful". Thalia Howe/Feldman supported the derivation from Sanskrit garj, meanimng "throat" or "swallow", and suggests that it's the roaring monster. I'm not so sure. The Gorgon isn't noted, in art or myth, as a sound-making monster. If anything, it's the Staring Monster, and there are lots of associations with eyes.






I just want to let you know, I'm yoinking this turn of phrase and keeping it in reserve on the off-chance I get an opportunity to use it. I promise to give you credit, should the occasion arise. :D


Thanks

[Maserschmidt]

This. (http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic64241_md.jpg) I'm thinking I'm in a minority here.

[foolsguinea]

Isn't there a hooved quadruped called a gorgon in Gygax's work? Something like that, weirdly enough.

But then I think of proper gorgons: modern hot gorgons, & an ancient carven-stone gorgon face with tusks in odd directions & her tongue sticking out.

Fair bit of variation in gorgon myths though.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Well, please yourself, it's still the first thing I thought of, but you shouldn't skew your data set if you want results that you can use.


Oh, and BTW, Bonobo's don't intimidate me.

I was merely highlighting my willingness to abuse innocents.

[Skald the Rhymer]

This. (http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic64241_md.jpg) I'm thinking I'm in a minority here.


Isn't there a hooved quadruped called a gorgon in Gygax's work? Something like that, weirdly enough.


Oak and a few others have brought that up already. Assuming those are D & D cards.

[Chronos]

I see no way those cards could have any significance to a D&D game-- D&D monsters are a lot more complicated than just two numbers (they're a whole bunch of numbers). I've no clue what Maserschmidt's cards are from.

[Silver Tyger]

Wasn't Gorgon Batman's police buddy :confused:

I'm hoping this is a whoosh, but that's Jim Gordon.

[foolsguinea]

What? I don't read the threads before posting on, "What do you think of first," questions, & this was similar to one.When you criticize Borish Vallejo you are supposed to do so much more vehemently, using the phrase talentless semi-pornographic Etruscan hack at least twice. There's a rule somewheres.He's Peruvian, you schmendrik.:: chops head off captive bonobo ::Stop abusing the bonobos.

[Alessan]

I was merely highlighting my willingness to abuse innocents.

Considering their sexual habits, the last thing I'd call bonobos is "innocent".

[The_Peyote_Coyote]

Another vote for the D&D creature.

[AClockworkMelon]

I'd expect a large, bull-like creature, possibly metallic, with a petrification special attack, either by gaze or breath. Dunno where my Monster Manual is, but it is definitely not at the office, so I can't check quicky.This is exactly it for me. Before I'd ever heard of the gorgons from Greek myth, when I was a little squirt, I had a collection of D&D books and in the Monster Manual a gorgon was a metal bull. So now whenever I hear or read "gorgon" that's what comes to mind first.

[gaffa]

Without reading the OP or any replies, my answer is "Joan Rivers".

[Ranchoth]

Medusa. After that, Dr. Pulaski. (Damnit, SF Debris (http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/tng-the-child-review-5161508)!)

[Arrogance Ex Machina]

I'd expect a large, bull-like creature, possibly metallic, with a petrification special attack, either by gaze or breath. Dunno where my Monster Manual is, but it is definitely not at the office, so I can't check quicky.


Seconding this one. Was surprised it wasn't an option in there somewhere given how many there were.

[DocCathode]

Cal Meacham is an expert on gorgons and has an advanced degree in optics.

Am I the only one thinking of a secret garden of statuary and a petrification ray?

[Maserschmidt]

I see no way those cards could have any significance to a D&D game-- D&D monsters are a lot more complicated than just two numbers (they're a whole bunch of numbers). I've no clue what Maserschmidt's cards are from.

Those are playing tiles from the classic* board game "Titan".


* and here by "classic" I mean "obscure"

[Der Trihs]

Wasn't Gorgon Batman's police buddy :confused:
I'm hoping this is a whoosh, but that's Jim Gordon.Picture: Two supervillains hiding behind a corner, several other fallen statues of villains can be seen in the background.

"Gordon. it was Gordon we were supposed to go after you idiot!"

[Skald the Rhymer]

What? I don't read the threads before posting on, "What do you think of first," questions, & this was similar to one.He's Peruvian, you schmendrik.Stop abusing the bonobos.

I did not abuse the bonobo. It was happy and well-fed until the moment it was murdered and its corpse fed to the other prisoners.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Seconding this one. Was surprised it wasn't an option in there somewhere given how many there were.

As I at least implied upthread, I have never played Dungeon & Dragons. Oak's post was the first I'd heard of that gorgon usage.

[Roderick Femm]

You've got it backwards: Jack in the country and, Ernest in town. That, my dear boy, is the whole truth plain and simple.The truth is rarely plain, and never simple.

Anyway, rats! That's what I get for trying to show off. Cut me some slack for being (probably) older than you. Oh, wait, I just noticed your user name. I believe that makes you older than, well, everyone.


Roddy

[Dan Norder]

1.) The Classical (i.e, really old) image of the Gorgon does NOT have snakes for hair. Sometimes it'll have snakes in its hair, but usually not.

I came here to say that. Well, it would have been more "Sometimes it'll have snakes around its head separate from the hair and later artists seem to have gotten that confused and made snakes instead of the hair, and then later that became the sole defining characteristic for the character for the vast majority of people."

I guess being very well read on mythology (and having run a web site about mythology until I sold it off and it got gutted) doesn't mean that much when the guy who wrote a whole book devoted to the topic is already here. I don't agree with every last thing in his book (I think a few years back I told him on these boards that I thought the astrological parts were doubtful, before I knew "CalMeacham" was the author), but overall I can recognize he's done a tremendous amount of solid research. It's a damn shame his ideas haven't been cited elsewhere more often.

Getting off topic here, but how our schools approach teaching mythology really needs to be completely overhauled. All too many people are stuck on memorizing one well-known fact about each character, or one well known version of a story, and all too often those are very late versions that have little in common with the original myths and that culture's beliefs. It's like someone in a history class writing a paper on President Lincoln's most important accomplishments based solely upon the ''Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter" YouTube clip.

[Ranchoth]

Cal Meacham is an expert on gorgons and has an advanced degree in optics.

Am I the only one thinking of a secret garden of statuary and a petrification ray?

Let's hope he's not a fan of Charles Stross (http://www.goldengryphon.com/Stross-Concrete.html)...

[MegaBee]

First image is the Inhuman from Marvel Comics. Second image is the scaly bull with the petrification breath. Third image is the smokin' hot lady with scaly skin and snakes for hair that turns you to stone with her gaze.

[Intergalactic Gladiator]

1-5 and 9. Classic gorgons from Greek myth, from what I've read in my youth and from watching Clash of the Titans. Scaly, ugly, snakey, turn you into stone, hideous, fanged, snake women.

But then I started thinking about Medusa from the Marvel comics and she's pretty hot.

So now I'm confused a little, should I be thinking about the hot inhuman or the ugly snakewoman? What should I do? So hot, but so deadly. So yummy or so killy?

Screw it, I'll see if there are any pics of hot Medussa cosplyers.

[Skald the Rhymer]

1-5 and 9. Classic gorgons from Greek myth, from what I've read in my youth and from watching Clash of the Titans. Scaly, ugly, snakey, turn you into stone, hideous, fanged, snake women.

But then I started thinking about Medusa from the Marvel comics and she's pretty hot.

So now I'm confused a little, should I be thinking about the hot inhuman or the ugly snakewoman? What should I do? So hot, but so deadly. So yummy or so killy?

Screw it, I'll see if there are any pics of hot Medussa cosplyers.

Comics-Medusa is BOTH yummy and killy, not just the first.

[CalMeacham]

Cal Meacham is an expert on gorgons and has an advanced degree in optics.

Am I the only one thinking of a secret garden of statuary and a petrification ray?

You'll keep quiet if you know what's good for you. Medusa knowsc where you live.

[CalMeacham]

I guess being very well read on mythology (and having run a web site about mythology until I sold it off and it got gutted) doesn't mean that much when the guy who wrote a whole book devoted to the topic is already here. I don't agree with every last thing in his book (I think a few years back I told him on these boards that I thought the astrological parts were doubtful, before I knew "CalMeacham" was the author), but overall I can recognize he's done a tremendous amount of solid research. It's a damn shame his ideas haven't been cited elsewhere more often.



Awww...you're too kind. My book is starting to be cited by more and more folks, including a recent authoritative book on Perseus, so I'm feeling better about it. I really do have to get cracking on the other two books on mythology I've wanted to write -- I've got a bookcase full of notes already gathered.

[kenobi 65]

The D&D gorgon. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG137.jpg) Also what I think of when I hear the word.

Me, too. Woman with snakey hair who can turn you to stone is what I'd refer to as a medusa.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Me, too. Woman with snakey hair who can turn you to stone is what I'd refer to as a medusa.


So you honestly didn't know that Medusa was the name of a particular Gorgon (one of three)?

I'm quite surprised to hear of people who lacked that knowledge. I guess I foolishly assumed that everyone read Bulfinch's & Hamilton's mythologies during their formative years.

[Pasta]

Another for "bovine". My mental image comes from the Heroes of Might and Magic series, in particular the Gorgon creature shown here (http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes3/creaturesfortress.shtml) (down the page). I always wondered where this creature came from, and I guess D&D is the proximate source.

I have a fuzzy memory of Medusa being one of three Gorgons, but only at the level where I could get it right if given multiple choices but not where I could come up with that fact out of nowhere. I've never heard of Bulfinch and Hamilton.

[thelurkinghorror]

Pasta, that's likely based on the catoblepas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoblepas), another mythological creature who turns people to stone.

D&D version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoblepas_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29).

[Skald the Rhymer]

I have a fuzzy memory of Medusa being one of three Gorgons, but only at the level where I could get it right if given multiple choices but not where I could come up with that fact out of nowhere. I've never heard of Bulfinch and Hamilton.

:eek:

I blame the schools. And George Bush. And, ultimately, the filthy Etruscans and their spiritual descendants, the accursed Welsh. But rather than my usual rants against Cardiff I will offer the following:

Thomas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bulfinch) Bulfinch (http://www.amazon.com/Bulfinchs-Mythology-ebook/dp/B002RKT4NA/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1314047828&sr=1-1).

Edith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Hamilton) Hamilton (http://www.amazon.com/Edith-Hamiltons-Mythology-Annotated-ebook/dp/B0051PQTTA/ref=sr_1_3?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1314047892&sr=1-3).

There's two links in each person's name. The first name links to the person's Wikipedia biography; the second to the Amazon.com Kindle bookstore.

[Clockwork Jackal]

I always thought the traditional (i.e. very old) pictures of Medusa with the large eyes and huge grin were supposed to represent a corpse's face. I'm not sure where I heard that from though, maybe one of those Discovery channel programs?

[kaylasdad99]

Wasn't Gorgon Batman's police buddy :confused:

I'm hoping this is a whoosh, but that's Jim Gordon.Not in MY continuity. In MY continuity, his first name was Commissioner.

And I get my idea of gorgons from reading Edith Hamilton. Hot in the looks department, with the only drawback being snake-haired Medusa and the whole turning-to-stone thing.

ETA: I don't know from Boris Vallejo.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Not in MY continuity. In MY continuity, his first name was Commissioner.


So were his parents precognitive or abusive, in YOUR continuity?

And I get my idea of gorgons from reading Edith Hamilton. Hot in the looks department, with the only drawback being snake-haired Medusa and the whole turning-to-stone thing.A wise man.


ETA: I don't know from Boris Vallejo.Happy Christmas.

This link is probably not safe for work, though it's all just pictures. (http://www.google.com/search?q=boris%20vallejo&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=612)

[kaylasdad99]

So were his parents precognitive or abusive, in YOUR continuity?In my continuity, he had no parents, but sprang fully-formed from the heads of Greenway Productions.

:D

[CalMeacham]

Pasta, that's likely based on the catoblepas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoblepas), another mythological creature who turns people to stone.

D&D version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoblepas_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29).

Have a look up at my earliest post. Some bestiaries (anmd Edward Topsell() identifioed the Catoblepas with the Gorgon, actually labelling the picture of the catoblepas the gorgon. To make things worse, the identification lead the illustrator to use elements of Apollodorus' descrioption of the gorgon in reconstructing the creature, further muddying the waters.

[Skald the Rhymer]

In my continuity, he had no parents, but sprang fully-formed from the heads of Greenway Productions.

:D

That does nothing to explain his presence in Tarzan & His Mate (otherwise known as "the Johnny Weismueller Tarzan movie with naked Margaret O'Hara! Or is it Margaret O'Sullivan? Or just Sullivan! Oh, I can ever keep it straight. Frankly I should just use the official title, it's shorter") by those in the know.

[CalMeacham]

So you honestly didn't know that Medusa was the name of a particular Gorgon (one of three)?

I'm quite surprised to hear of people who lacked that knowledge. I guess I foolishly assumed that everyone read Bulfinch's & Hamilton's mythologies during their formative years.

I have been, too. In The Circus of Dr. Lao, Finney calls his gorgons "medusas", so it's not a receny development, or that rare.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I have been, too. In The Circus of Dr. Lao, Finney calls his gorgons "medusas", so it's not a receny development, or that rare.

:: checks wikipedia ::

At least the unicorn on the cover doesn't have wings.

[CalMeacham]

:: checks wikipedia ::

At least the unicorn on the cover doesn't have wings.


There are lotsa different editions. Here's the cover of the first one I bought:

http://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/d/d6/THCRCSFDRL1974.jpg


No wings on that unicorn, either.

[kaylasdad99]

That does nothing to explain his presence in Tarzan & His Mate (otherwise known as "the Johnny Weismueller Tarzan movie with naked Margaret O'Hara! Or is it Margaret O'Sullivan? Or just Sullivan! Oh, I can ever keep it straight. Frankly I should just use the official title, it's shorter") by those in the know.Maureen. Maureen O'Sullivan.


ETA: Rawrr.

[Pasta]

Have a look up at my earliest post. Some bestiaries (anmd Edward Topsell() identifioed the Catoblepas with the Gorgon, actually labelling the picture of the catoblepas the gorgon. To make things worse, the identification lead the illustrator to use elements of Apollodorus' descrioption of the gorgon in reconstructing the creature, further muddying the waters.
Fascinating. Thanks for pointing out the up-thread post.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Maureen. Maureen O'Sullivan.

:: glares ::

[Chronos]

Why the glares? kaylasdad just made it easier for you to do a Google Image Search.

[Johnny L.A.]

Without having read or searched the thread... Friggin' In The Riggin'.

The Captain's name was Morgan
By Christ, he was a gorgon
Ten times a day
Sweet tunes he'd play
On his reproductive organ

[Diogenes the Cynic]

The first time I ever encountered the word was in some book about Perseus I read as a kid, so I've basically only ever had the classical image in my mind.

Say, don't we have an expert on Medusa on the board? Somebody that was featured in a History Channel show?

[Crown Prince of Irony]

I voted 1-4. Gorgons should always turn men into stone by merely making eye contact, should always have snakes for hair, and should be both hideous and hot (how else to turn men into stone?).

I'm thinking like a circa-1993 Fran Drescher, or Courtney Love. With slightly more snakes.

[Alessan]

Maureen. Maureen O'Sullivan.


ETA: Rawrr.

Damn you, Hayes Code.

[jackdavinci]

Replace Boris with Uma Thurman

[Sam A. Robrin]

And incidentally, wouldn't MED-USA be a much better name for ObamaCare? And there's already the caduceus, so the imagery coincides perfectly....

[Revtim]

The stop-motion animated Gorgon from the old-school "Clash of the Titans" movie.me too

[Skald the Rhymer]

Why the glares? kaylasdad just made it easier for you to do a Google Image Search.

Getting the name wrong was PART OF THE JOKE!

[Chronos]

Oh. You really should, like, label those.

As for the hotness factor, I've always pictured Medusa (or other gorgons) as being butterfaces, or maybe butterskins. The curves are all right, but then there's the whole scaly bloody angry thing.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Oh. You really should, like, label those.


That is beneath me.


As for the hotness factor, I've always pictured Medusa (or other gorgons) as being butterfaces, or maybe butterskins. The curves are all right, but then there's the whole scaly bloody angry thing.

[Athena worshipper]

Far be it from me to speculate on my God's motives or aims, but I tend to think that when She transformed Medusa into her monstrous from, it would have pleased Her to allow her to retain the facial pulchritude she had as a mortal. Whatever ugliness Medusa had was spiritual, not physical; the petrifying effect was only an expression of what was inside.

It should go without saying of course that Medusa, like Arachnae, totally had it coming.

The other gorgons may well have had disfigured faces, however.

[/athena worshipper]

[kaylasdad99]

That does nothing to explain his presence in Tarzan & His Mate (otherwise known as "the Johnny Weismueller Tarzan movie with naked Margaret O'Hara! Or is it Margaret O'Sullivan? Or just Sullivan! Oh, I can ever keep it straight. Frankly I should just use the official title, it's shorter") by those in the know.

Maureen. Maureen O'Sullivan.


ETA: Rawrr.

:: glares ::

Getting the name wrong was PART OF THE JOKE!Oh.

Then you spelled "whoosh" wrong. It has no "g's", "l's", "a's" "r's", or "e's."

[Skald the Rhymer]

Oh.

Then you spelled "whoosh" wrong. It has no "g's", "l's", "a's" "r's", or "e's."

The usual threats.