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sweeteviljesus
08-20-2011, 11:14 PM
Ordinarily, I don't bother to argue with those people, but this is the mother of my children and I feel compelled to convince her that there isn't some secret conspiracy that deliberately blew up the twin towers. I either need a way to convince her or a way to get in contact with a support group.

P.S.: Now she's downstairs showing my eight year old a cartoon about the Fed and how evil it is.

Happy Fun Ball
08-20-2011, 11:15 PM
Wow. I don't know what I would do.

FinnAgain
08-20-2011, 11:28 PM
There are two types of Truthers.

1. Those who are Truthers because they know nothing at all about it and 30 seconds can point out its absurdity and set them to other, more profitable pursuits.
2. The other kind.

sweeteviljesus
08-20-2011, 11:38 PM
Unfortunately, I think she fits into category #2. I actually got really pissed at her the other night, but I took a deep breath and apologized. We may just have to agree to disagree. I know there are Republicans married to Democrats.

Rob

Sarahfeena
08-20-2011, 11:41 PM
Unfortunately, I think she fits into category #2.

Rob

That's cause the first kind doesn't really exist. For some reason, the less people actually know about it, the more wholeheartedly they believe there's a conspiracy.

FinnAgain
08-20-2011, 11:44 PM
If it makes you feel any better, I discovered that the Canadians I work with are all Truthers, believe that the moon landing was a hoax, believe that there was a conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy... and that any American who doesn't agree with them disagrees because Americans are brainwashed sheep who have to believe that their nation is the best at everything so it can't have done bad things.

Type 2 is more common than you might think.
(I need a drink)

FloatyGimpy
08-20-2011, 11:49 PM
If it makes you feel any better, I discovered that the Canadians I work with are all Truthers, believe that the moon landing was a hoax, believe that there was a conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy... and that any American who doesn't agree with them disagrees because Americans are brainwashed sheep who have to believe that their nation is the best at everything so it can't have done bad things.

Type 2 is more common than you might think.
(I need a drink)

Just pipping up as a 41 year old Canadian who has never met any Canadians like that! :)

Sitnam
08-20-2011, 11:53 PM
Reminds me of the time my wife and I were diving home from her parents house and said she didn't believe in macro evolution.

I did not handle it well.

This is something she believes, it is a part of her, you can't bash it without bashing her. I suggest being gentle, and always keep in mind how irrelevant this issue is in your relationship. Ask her for her facts and gently debate her support for them.

Bryan Ekers
08-20-2011, 11:57 PM
I daresay the best the OP can hope for is some angry conspiracy-fucking.

sweeteviljesus
08-21-2011, 12:05 AM
Unfortunately, I am no expert on the subject and I don't want to appeal to authority. After all, she can claim "Architects and Engineers for Truth" (who the hell are those guys anyway?) and what the hell do I know. My argument is why would all these people lie?

We live in Austin, so we have Alex Jones on local radio. I tried to point out to her that not everything Josef Goebbels said was a lie either, but that doesn't prove that the rest of what he was saying was true. Nor do I have the time nor the energy nor the desire to sift through all that crap to mount a decent argument.

Unfortunately, I don't drink.

Rob

Jragon
08-21-2011, 12:12 AM
Show her this (http://www.cracked.com/article_15740_was-911-inside-job.html) and pray to the Invisible Pink Pasta Subgenius.

The Second Stone
08-21-2011, 12:15 AM
So the 19 highjackers just spontaneously decided to get together in the middle of the flights and ram four separate airplanes into things? No conspiracy? 9/11 most certainly was a conspiracy. We will never know where it stopped.

FinnAgain
08-21-2011, 12:21 AM
Conspiracy Theory means "bullshit". It does not mean "any time people collude, conspire, or act in concert." Starting with that nonsense is not a good sign.

Nor is it that you're claiming that "we will never know where [the conspiracy] stopped." Yes, we do. Al Quaeda planned and executed an attack against the United States.

XT
08-21-2011, 12:22 AM
Really, there is not much you can do about it. :( I've found through the years that people believe what they are going to believe, despite whatever evidence you can give them. There IS plenty of evidence you COULD give her (you could just do some searches on the myriad threads we've had on this board on this subject as a starting place...or just google 'debunk 9/11 truth' for a ton of cites on it), but in the end believe is just that...belief. It doesn't require facts, it merely requires buy in.

My own in-laws, and really much of my extended family don't 'believe' in evolution, and nothing I can say or do can sway them from that stance. My father in law is convinced that all of the fossil 'evidence' (his emphasis) is manufactured with the intent of secularist to sway people from the 'truth' (my emphasis), and in the end I just had to accept that there wasn't anything I could do about it. So, I just don't talk about it with them anymore, as that is a level of denial that is just not breach-able. Basically these days I just don't bother trying to explain why ghosts, UFOs, magic bullets or the countless other myths and CTs are ridiculous to folks who are true believers...it's not worth my time or effort when there is zero hope of reaching these folks. I don't even really bother when the odd 9/11 Truther comes onto the board with some stunning new revelation (in the form of a YouTube video that I just HAVE to see) wanders in to start up yet another thread on the subject...most 'dopers are already convinced by the mountain of evidence, and it turns into an echo chamber of folks trying to convince folks who are simply not open to convincing.

You have my sympathy. My advice is to let it go and just agree to disagree. If it really annoys you, just don't talk about it. If you think there is any hope, sit down with her and watch one of the 2 hour specials that are on NatGeo or Discovery on the subject, especially the ones where they have the most prominent 9/11 Truthers on to give there take, and then they have skeptics basically pick them apart and make them look like fools. If that doesn't spark even a small seed of doubt in her then just let it go.

Good luck!

-XT

Ibn Warraq
08-21-2011, 12:49 AM
So the 19 highjackers just spontaneously decided to get together in the middle of the flights and ram four separate airplanes into things? No conspiracy? 9/11 most certainly was a conspiracy. We will never know where it stopped.

It was a conspiracy but only a complete moron would think the US government, Israel or any of the other culprits that idiot truthers point to was behind the attack.

XT
08-21-2011, 01:00 AM
So the 19 highjackers just spontaneously decided to get together in the middle of the flights and ram four separate airplanes into things? No conspiracy? 9/11 most certainly was a conspiracy.

Certainly it was a conspiracy...a conspiracy of a small terrorist organization to attack the US directly and cause as many casualties and sow as much fear and terror as they could.

We will never know where it stopped.

Oh horseshit. Will we ever know every last detail? No...of course not. We'll never know every last detail of a car crash involving a drunk driver and a car full of people who's only crime was driving at the same time as some asshole who decided to drive while intoxicated. That doesn't mean that we don't know anything, or can't piece together the main gist of what happened. There is mountains of evidence, and trying to say 'well, we don't know EVERYTHING' is a total bullshit cop out. It's the god of the gaps all over again. Because they don't know exactly which beam failed first, that means we don't REALLY know what caused the collapse. :rolleyes: Or because they don't know the exact dynamics of bolt 531 on the air craft that hit the Pentagon we don't REALLY know what happened to the building. Total. Horseshit.

-XT

Miller
08-21-2011, 01:11 AM
After all, she can claim "Architects and Engineers for Truth" (who the hell are those guys anyway?)

By and large, they're people who have had their names added to an online petition without their knowledge or consent.

DWMarch
08-21-2011, 01:16 AM
Okay, simple debunking method here: Is President Obama in on it too?

You see, as POTUS, he has access to everything. If he wants to know something he will know it. "Need to know" does not apply to him; no one can keep secrets from him.

President Obama is a savvy president. He is media-conscious. He reads the newspapers. It's a 99% certainty he's heard this conspiracy shit before.

And guess what? It happened on the Republican watch. If you assume the conspiracy is true, a Republican president, with Republican advisors planned and committed the greatest mass murder in American history followed by wars that have killed thousands of US troops while costing over a trillion dollars.

If Obama can prove to the American public that any part of the conspiracy theory is true he will be president for a thousand years. At the very least, every single person in the Republican party would be lined up and shot, shot again for safety and buried face down under the Fukushima rubble. Nixon is a villain unto eternity for a break in. Imagine what the US public would do to mass murderers (of US citizens, those brown folk over yonder don't count). What I'm trying to say is that this conspiracy would be the absolute ultimate nuclear ammunition to destroy the Republican party forever.

So if it's true, why is Obama just sitting on it? Why did Obama compromise on the health care deal? Or the debt crisis? I would have taken Boehner aside and told him "listen up asshole, if you don't do it my way and do it now, I'm going to get on the TV and tell all of America and the world what your party did in 2001."

This is unless Obama is in on it too. If this is so than you and everyone else is screwed beyond all capacity. You literally have no control over your life at any point; you live and die at the mercy and whims of your corrupt and evil government. It doesn't matter who you vote for or what you believe or what you do. You will be ground into dust whenever the government feels like doing so. Ask you wife if that's the kind of world she wants to live in. If she says yes, divorce her.

Jragon
08-21-2011, 01:17 AM
I thought Need To Know still applied to the president.

Edit: I'll just ask GQ, no need to hijack this thread.

Bryan Ekers
08-21-2011, 01:18 AM
Heck, I remember a Kennedy conspiracist who demanded a recreation of Oswald's shots. OF course it wasn't just "put a trained shooter on the sixth floor and see if he can hit a slow-moving target in the head", but "the shooter must have a performance record identical to Oswald's Marine record, he must miss the first shot, fire the second exactly 0.534 seconds later, hit the target in the upper back in such a way to also hit the secondary target, fire the third shot exactly 0.489 seconds after that and hit the target in the head, etc." The "recreation" standards were so absurdly rigid that an exact recreation was impossible and I'm sure the writer knew this, and was using it as proof.

If all it takes is, "sit here and keep shooting until you kill that guy", I figure anybody well-trained with a rifle could kill or at least seriously wound a limo-seated person at least 50% of the time. How hard could it be?

DWMarch
08-21-2011, 01:24 AM
I thought Need To Know still applied to the president.

Edit: I'll just ask GQ, no need to hijack this thread.

I'm sure there's compartmented information that Obama is not just handed access to. For example, he didn't ask which Navy SEAL shot Osama bin Laden. But if he wanted to know he could find out.

So when it comes to "hey, my political opponents may have been responsible for the biggest terrorist attack and mass murder ever committed on US soil" I'd be willing to bet he could find out if he wanted to.

dangermom
08-21-2011, 01:27 AM
By and large, they're people who have had their names added to an online petition without their knowledge or consent.Oddly, one of them is my ex-bf from high school; he owns it proudly (he used to get annoyed at my religious beliefs because he felt they were irrational...). I know because he posted the link just a couple of days ago. Nice guy, just utterly convinced by Alex Jones--and not a structural engineer or anybody who actually knows anything more than your average schmoe about burning jet fuel vs. steel and concrete. Definitely a Category 2.

IIRC he also thinks the gov't shot Kennedy. Or something.

FinnAgain
08-21-2011, 01:31 AM
Just pipping up as a 41 year old Canadian who has never met any Canadians like that! :)

Oh and, yes, didn't mean to imply that all or even most Canadians are like that. I was just rather shocked that they went from one to the other to the other... I guess if you scratch a Conspiracy Theorist on one subject, you find a freerange-nutter on quite a few.

IIRC it started with one guy saying that 9/11 was a conspiracy because steel doesn't melt at that temperature. I pointed out that it didn't melt, it just softened enough to bend. Then other folks joined in and they claimed that a missile hit the Pentagon. So I showed them a picture of plane wreckage on the law and debris scattered across the lawn right against the wall. They claimed that since I hadn't been there myself I didn't know that the wreckage wasn't planted and besides, it was far from the wall itself. Then they claimed that the plane should have left a much bigger hole, and the fact that it didn't meant that the building was hit by a missile. Then they claimed that the landing gear that was recovered was also planted and I couldn't know that the engine that was recovered was real either, since i wasn't there and...

It was about that time that one of them piped up with "I bet you also think that Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman, eh!?!" and another started showing us YouTube videos 'proving' that the moon landing was a hoax and others murmured their approval since, after all, the USSR put the first man into space and the first animal into space, so the US really just launched a rocket, circled the moon a bit, and only pretended to land.

I've just discovered that I shouldn't try to discuss these things with my coworkers, because I'm very bad at keeping a poker face when confronted with that kind of... belief.

Now, if my wife believed something like that, I don't know what I'd do. It'd be a bit like discovering that you're married to someone who thinks that UFO are beaming secret messages into her teeth. What is the correct reaction? Sympathy, compassion, quiet-eye-rolling while you change the subject, thorazine? Fuck if I know, but my sympathy goes out to the OP.

The Second Stone
08-21-2011, 02:01 AM
Certainly it was a conspiracy...a conspiracy of a small terrorist organization to attack the US directly and cause as many casualties and sow as much fear and terror as they could.



Oh horseshit. Will we ever know every last detail? No...of course not. We'll never know every last detail of a car crash involving a drunk driver and a car full of people who's only crime was driving at the same time as some asshole who decided to drive while intoxicated. That doesn't mean that we don't know anything, or can't piece together the main gist of what happened. There is mountains of evidence, and trying to say 'well, we don't know EVERYTHING' is a total bullshit cop out. It's the god of the gaps all over again. Because they don't know exactly which beam failed first, that means we don't REALLY know what caused the collapse. :rolleyes: Or because they don't know the exact dynamics of bolt 531 on the air craft that hit the Pentagon we don't REALLY know what happened to the building. Total. Horseshit.

-XT

What's horseshit? That it extended beyond 19 guys? It sure did. Supposedly Osama bin Ladin was behind it, and he might have been. The past decade of war is the US Government's testament that the powers that be think 9/11 was a vast conspiracy. The Bush Administration convinced Congress that Iraq was behind it, which was most certainly untrue. I know that most of the designated villains are now long dead, yet the wars and profit making continue with no end in sight. It's pretty obvious to me that airplanes brought down the towers. It's obvious to me that the people who ordered it and arranged it were not among those to die doing the deed. Just because crazy people add bizarre fictions to the accusation of conspiracy isn't reason to believe that conspiracies do not exist, they most certainly do exist, and 9/11 was one of them. There is no limit to the loathsomeness and evil that some human beings will stoop to if money and power are the motivations. I am comforted that by far the vast majority of people would die before doing such evil things for money or power.

I don't think George W. Bush would deliberately do such evil acts. But I'm damn sure that someone like Dick Cheney would, and that W was quite susceptible to being a tool of Cheney's.

FinnAgain
08-21-2011, 02:04 AM
Yet again, nobody has denied that there was a conspiracy to attack the United States. Nobody is claiming that conspiracies do not exist. That you do not understand that "Conspiracy Theory" means something totally different than "conspiracy" is quite a problem. As is your Just Asking Questions hinting about who else was involved in the attacks.

XT
08-21-2011, 02:19 AM
What's horseshit?

The implication that if we don't know every molecule and how it interacted on 9/11 that we can never know what REALLY happened, of course.

That it extended beyond 19 guys? It sure did. Supposedly Osama bin Ladin was behind it, and he might have been.

Which, of course, no one is denying. And which isn't what you mean with your dark and sinister 'We will never know where it stopped'....*wink wink, nudge nudge*. Sheesh...no one here fell off the turnip truck yesterday wrt 9/11 CTs and the subvocal dance going on here.

The past decade of war is the US Government's testament that the powers that be think 9/11 was a vast conspiracy.

Horseshit. The last decade is a testament to the US government over reacting and lashing out, as the majority of the voting public WANTED them to. We, The People DEMANDED that the government Do Something(tm)...and we stumbled from one cluster fuck to another as the government tried to give us what we wanted.

But, of course, you aren't talking about a 'vast conspiracy' involving AQ...you are really talking about a 'vast conspiracy' involving the government of the US, possibly the Jews(aar) and gods know what else...maybe mutant space muffins for all I know. Again...didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday TSS. Can't pretend to have never seen you posting in a 9/11 thread before. Can't pretend I haven't seen the same language used before by 9/11 Truthers. Not going to pretend either.

I don't think George W. Bush would deliberately do such evil acts. But I'm damn sure that someone like Dick Cheney would, and that W was quite susceptible to being a tool of Cheney's.

Well yeah...obviously if Bush didn't do it, Cheney and the dark forces of evil must have. Q.E.D. and all that. :p

-XT

AClockworkMelon
08-21-2011, 02:22 AM
Bro, I'm really, really sorry.

But it's not so bad. Many conspiracy theorists, with regular treatment and socialization, go on to lead happy, productive and mostly normal lives. I'll PM you a link to some pamphlets about living with a Conspiracy Theorist loved-one.

Remember to talk to your kids about being patient with and supporting and understanding of their mother. It's hard to be a child of a disabled parent, but remind them that it isn't their fault and that whatever happens, their mommy still loves them.

FriarTed
08-21-2011, 03:06 AM
One of my best friends was making "Truthy" noises. She's a Lefty, I'm a Righty. She, of course, was leaning towards Bush or at least Cheney & others in the Administration either knowing about the plan or being involved.

So I asked her- "Is the Democratic leadership in Congress as evil as Bush & Co?"

Her- "Um, I don't think so."

Me- "But they know everything in government records about it & they don't think the Bush Administration was involved."

Her- "Well, maybe they don't know the real facts."

Me- "Oh, the Democrats in Congress don't know the real facts but you and your sources do?"

I really don't know if she changed her mind, but she shut up about it, so that's almost as good.

Miller
08-21-2011, 06:13 AM
Okay, simple debunking method here: Is President Obama in on it too?

No good. These kinds of conspiracy theorists tend to believe that the elected government isn't really in control of that country, and that they're just pawns of some secret, sinister (often Jewish) cabal that really runs things. These are the same people who generally believe that JFK was killed by our own government. They'll have no trouble believing that Obama is either fully complicit in the shadow government, or is too cowed by it to reveal its machinations.

Mr. Miskatonic
08-21-2011, 08:53 AM
By and large, they're people who have had their names added to an online petition without their knowledge or consent.

With A&EFT, they actually did sign up, but their credentials were barely checked (Gage had fake names on his rosters for years despite claiming to do 'thorough background checks'. The remainder may look like an impressive number until you take a good look at their credentials. Lots of the engineers are 'Computer Engineers', a good dose of 'Electrical Engineers', lots of people with not-updated statuses saying they are 'working on a Mechanical/Structural/Civil Engineering degree'. The handful of Architects they have only worked on small or short buildings (including Gage). The 1 or 2 structural engineers they have are 1) retired 2) worked on nothing bigger than an oil rig and 3) outright cranks in their real life.

'Patriots for 9/11 Truth' on the other hand, was a classic example of Truther quote mining and adding people without their knowledge or consent. The classic bit being them adding people who died in the collapse of the Towers.

You might want to poke around some places like the blog

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com which regularly rips AE911T a new one.
http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/ - Mark Roberts site which hasn't been updated in a while but has scads of info about the people of 911 Truth movements and other fun debunking facts.

Ask your wife if she denies the Holocost happened. Many, many truthers are also Holocost deniers.

Rune
08-21-2011, 10:52 AM
I either need a way to convince her or a way to get in contact with a support group.A support group? heh. Why does it matter so much that your wife believes in a whacky theory? Is one automatically a moral reprehensible person unless one subscribes to the current dogma? I once fucked a girl that was into crystal healing and numerology, she had a funny name but smelled good and was good to children and I have it from trustworthy eyewitnesses that global warmer dolphin/whale worshippers give the meanest blowjob. Wouldn’t it be boring if you agreed on everything? Your wife’s non-conformist views on 9/11 should give you something interesting to talk about.

yorick73
08-21-2011, 10:54 AM
Okay, simple debunking method here: Is President Obama in on it too?

You see, as POTUS, he has access to everything. If he wants to know something he will know it. "Need to know" does not apply to him; no one can keep secrets from him.

Of COURSE Obama knows that Bush and the Pubs were behind the whole thing. This is why Obama doesn't give a shit about public opinion right now. This is going to be the best October surprise EVER! :)

John Mace
08-21-2011, 11:55 AM
If it's just this one thing, then maybe the best idea is to just let it go. You hinted that she's also going on about the Fed. Is there a whole suite of beliefs that go with the whole Truther thing, or does she generally have rational ideas about most things, even if you and she might not agree on the details?

yorick73
08-21-2011, 12:18 PM
If it's just this one thing, then maybe the best idea is to just let it go. You hinted that she's also going on about the Fed. Is there a whole suite of beliefs that go with the whole Truther thing, or does she generally have rational ideas about most things, even if you and she might not agree on the details?

Truther + Fed is Evil = typical Ron Paul supporter.

Snarky_Kong
08-21-2011, 01:05 PM
Could you perhaps try to have a conversation about not bringing this stuff up to your kid, and then ignore it?

In my experience you can't change minds, so try to contain.

Jackmannii
08-21-2011, 01:13 PM
There is one unpleasant possibility here - that the OP's wife is suffering from onset of mental illness, perhaps related to some undetected "physical" disorder.

I'm not trying to be snarky here about Truther beliefs, merely to suggest that if there is new onset of such thinking in a previously rational person, there could be something treatable at the bottom of it. First step (if she hasn't had one recently) is a good physical exam with blood tests as indicated.

GIGObuster
08-21-2011, 01:20 PM
By and large, they're people who have had their names added to an online petition without their knowledge or consent.

It is a very typical tactic of groups who, no matter how much they huff and puff, they actually have the minority view.

You are correct that a good number of the names in those kind of petitions usually do not have knowledge or consent; but, the fringe proponents do get some deluded former experts or washed up barely involved experts to sign the petition, the organizers then pay to publish it on important newspapers or on-line and then claim elsewhere that: "You see?!! There is no consensus and/or there is controversy on the subject!" The effort is made to confuse many and to reinforce the opinions of the fringe believers.

As the tactic is successful on many (I have seen many dopers fall for it on economic or political matters besides science) expect it to be used again and again.

Triskadecamus
08-21-2011, 02:07 PM
My most recent tactic for dealing with the phenomenon in question is to reply to the alarmist assertions that, "Yeah, I know, I just don't really mind all that much."

Tris

LonesomePolecat
08-21-2011, 02:16 PM
If it makes you feel any better, I discovered that the Canadians I work with are all Truthers, believe that the moon landing was a hoax, believe that there was a conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy... and that any American who doesn't agree with them disagrees because Americans are brainwashed sheep who have to believe that their nation is the best at everything so it can't have done bad things.
Is this a joke or a bit of sarcasm? :confused: I honestly don't know.

Zsofia
08-21-2011, 02:25 PM
A support group? heh. Why does it matter so much that your wife believes in a whacky theory? Is one automatically a moral reprehensible person unless one subscribes to the current dogma? I once fucked a girl that was into crystal healing and numerology, she had a funny name but smelled good and was good to children and I have it from trustworthy eyewitnesses that global warmer dolphin/whale worshippers give the meanest blowjob. Wouldn’t it be boring if you agreed on everything? Your wife’s non-conformist views on 9/11 should give you something interesting to talk about.
Frankly, I wouldn't want somebody teaching my child things who is so obviously gullible and falls for the most ridiculous of theories.

FinnAgain
08-21-2011, 02:31 PM
Is this a joke or a bit of sarcasm? :confused: I honestly don't know.

Neither, it's pretty much verbatim. They were serious.

newcomer
08-21-2011, 02:33 PM
You see, as POTUS, he has access to everything. If he wants to know something he will know it. "Need to know" does not apply to him; no one can keep secrets from him. Is this a fact or just your opinion?

How do you explain Abu Ghraib?

Agents (police, FBI, CIA, Army, contractors ... ) of Government can do and will do horrible things under the pretense of being experts in what they do and being assigned a task to carry.

If a financial disaster of 2008 can happen to the allegedly best minds of financial world representing best minds of so called private sector why would mediocre government officials be any better?

Regardless of conspiracy discussed, I'm quite astonished at how little awareness people pay to the events in the world that surrounds them. It's like they never met a person or group that wants to have things their way no matter the cost. Or that if they don't get it then there's nothing to it.

pulykamell
08-21-2011, 02:52 PM
One of my close friends is a truther (or at least was, last time the subject was breached.) My own father has elements of it, but he just listens to too much talk radio and whatever the conspiracy-du-jour is, he latches onto it, and then eventually forgets about it. I just shrug it off and do my best not discuss it. Admittedly, with my father, my reaction might be a bit more hostile. The odd thing is, my friend who is the truther was a big fan of anti-conspiracy theory books like Jon Ronson's Them: Adventures in Extremists, so I'm not entirely sure how this all fits into his worldview.

Kozmik
08-21-2011, 04:23 PM
It was a conspiracy but only a complete moron would think the US government, Israel or any of the other culprits that idiot truthers point to was behind the attack.If it is conceded by truthers that the US government was not behind the attack then those truthers are not morons or idiots for thinking that Israel or any other culprit was behind the attack.

Miller
08-21-2011, 05:02 PM
A support group? heh. Why does it matter so much that your wife believes in a whacky theory? Is one automatically a moral reprehensible person unless one subscribes to the current dogma? I once fucked a girl that was into crystal healing and numerology, she had a funny name but smelled good and was good to children and I have it from trustworthy eyewitnesses that global warmer dolphin/whale worshippers give the meanest blowjob. Wouldn’t it be boring if you agreed on everything? Your wife’s non-conformist views on 9/11 should give you something interesting to talk about.

Well, yes and no. "Truther" covers a very wide range of beliefs, from the merely implausible ("George Bush knew it was going to happen, and did nothing!") to the benignly ridiculous ("The government put explosives in the towers!") to the out-right delusional ("There were no planes at all!") to the maliciously racist ("Did you know that all the Jews who worked at the WTC called in sick the day of the attack?").

IMO, the first two categories are no big deal. I have a few friends who fall into the first, and one who falls into the second. They're otherwise good people, and I don't hold their lack of critical thinking abilities on this issue against them.

The third category, you're starting to talk about genuine mental illness. I would be concerned if one of my friends suddenly started spouting that sort of stuff - and I'd be greatly alarmed if my wife and mother of my children did so.

The fourth category is where I'd start seriously rethinking if I want this person to be in my life anymore.

DWMarch
08-21-2011, 05:53 PM
How do you explain Abu Ghraib?

Willful ignorance. W didn't know and didn't want to know. When the story went public and he couldn't ignore it any more, people landed in jail.

In any case, the larger point I was trying to make is when the Commander in Chief comes calling and wants you (the soldier, the CIA interrogator, the special forces operator, etc) to answer his specific questions, would you be the one to say no?

No good. These kinds of conspiracy theorists tend to believe that the elected government isn't really in control of that country, and that they're just pawns of some secret, sinister (often Jewish) cabal that really runs things. These are the same people who generally believe that JFK was killed by our own government. They'll have no trouble believing that Obama is either fully complicit in the shadow government, or is too cowed by it to reveal its machinations.

And as I said before, if I found myself married to someone who believed this was the kind of world we lived in, I'd file for divorce. Not only that, I would tell her that the government told me to file for divorce or they would kill me because my wife knew too much about what was really going on with 9/11. If she wants a conspiracy she can have it.

njtt
08-21-2011, 06:30 PM
9/11 was 10 years ago. Has your wife been concealing these views of hers (or her ongoing interest in, and increasing acceptance of them) for the last decade? Unless you have a really shitty marriage, it seems much more likely that she has only recently been heavily influenced by someone or something. It might be a good idea to find out who or what.

pulykamell
08-21-2011, 07:13 PM
Well, yes and no. "Truther" covers a very wide range of beliefs, from the merely implausible ("George Bush knew it was going to happen, and did nothing!") to the benignly ridiculous ("The government put explosives in the towers!") to the out-right delusional ("There were no planes at all!") to the maliciously racist ("Did you know that all the Jews who worked at the WTC called in sick the day of the attack?").

IMO, the first two categories are no big deal. I have a few friends who fall into the first, and one who falls into the second. They're otherwise good people, and I don't hold their lack of critical thinking abilities on this issue against them.

The third category, you're starting to talk about genuine mental illness. I would be concerned if one of my friends suddenly started spouting that sort of stuff - and I'd be greatly alarmed if my wife and mother of my children did so.

The fourth category is where I'd start seriously rethinking if I want this person to be in my life anymore.

Yep. Number two is my friend. Number four is my dad.

sweeteviljesus
08-21-2011, 11:06 PM
9/11 was 10 years ago. Has your wife been concealing these views of hers (or her ongoing interest in, and increasing acceptance of them) for the last decade? Unless you have a really shitty marriage, it seems much more likely that she has only recently been heavily influenced by someone or something. It might be a good idea to find out who or what.

I know exactly who (someone from her hometown who she talks to on facebook), but she is a grown-up and I am obviously not going to try to dictate who she can and can't talk to. I can't say that she shows a lot of ideological consistency. She has also been watching a lot of Fox News lately, but they are decidedly anti-Truther (unless there is some way they can pin it on Obama...).

She also told me that she thought it was suspicious that we didn't see any pictures of Osama bin Laden. I tried to point out to her that if he wasn't dead, why would al Qaeda go along with it, but she thinks that he was on the CIA payroll or something. I tried to point out that she was thinking of Hekmaytar and that billionaires aren't typically on anyone's payroll.

I think she has decided that I am just one of the sheeple and that's that, but I worry about what shit she might be telling my kids when I am not around.

Rob

sweeteviljesus
08-21-2011, 11:19 PM
Or maybe not. She just sent me this:

Government Cannot Protect Us From Violence by Ron Paul

I won't bore you with the text except to say that the gist of it was if only the citizens of London and Norway were armed, they could have prevented this senseless tragedy. While I believe that guns don't cause crime (although I will concede that they make crime more deadly) and I am a gun owner who used to have a CHL permit, I don't believe that recent downward trends in the crime rate are due to an increased number of concealed handgun permits. I am also suspicious that Ron Paul actually wrote it. I found it on ronpaul.com which is a fan site.

Horatio Hellpop
08-21-2011, 11:28 PM
Pick your fights. My last girlfriend--college educated, 3-digit IQ, raised by two mainstream Methodist ministers--was a Birther and a big fan of Fox News and Sarah Palin. No conspiracy theory about George Soros was too far out there for her to put stock in it. I had to focus on the many things about her that I adored, but it was a bit like dating Michelle Bachmann.

Ibn Warraq
08-22-2011, 12:11 AM
If it is conceded by truthers that the US government was not behind the attack then those truthers are not morons or idiots for thinking that Israel or any other culprit was behind the attack.
.
No, non-Muslims who claim the Jews were behind 9/11 are morons.

PBear42
08-22-2011, 12:15 AM
Returning to the OP, it seems to me sweeteviljesus that there are three ways to handle this. First, as others have suggested, you could follow through on your instinct simply to agree-to-disagree. This is the easiest plan to implement. Second, you could immerse yourself in the literature, become an expert and maybe change her mind. But, you've indicated you don't have the time or energy for such an endeavor and, besides, your prospects for success aren't great. Third, and what I would do, is ask her to suggest a few sites you could read to understand her position. Take the time to read those. Then, if you're not convinced (as is likely), have a conversation where you state only that and why. Not arguing that she's wrong, only explaining why you're not convinced. At this point, you end up at agree-to-disagree, but you've made a good faith effort. In any healthy relationship, that's as much as she can expect of you.

As for why you're not convinced, there are several reasons that don't require you to become an amateur expert. These were things which occurred to me when I first read about the theory. For example, I have a hard time believing any group of people in government had a conversation about bringing down the Twin Towers and killing thousands of civilians. Further, I don't believe we have the intelligence capacity to mount an operation of this scale and complexity. Moreover, I don't believe an operation of this kind could have been pulled off without someone spilling the beans. And I find it unspeakably implausible that the government would go to all this trouble to frame OBL instead of Saddam Hussein. IOW, the CT doesn't make sense.

Your list of simple reasons could be completely different, of course. But, again, the objective isn't to change her mind. It's to defend your skepticism. And to ask that the little ones (to the extent they're involved) at least be told it's a subject over which reasonable minds can differ. IMHO, that's as much as you can expect to achieve under the circumstances.

chizzuk
08-22-2011, 01:20 AM
One of my friends in college turned out to be a Truther. It was a terrible shock: he was someone I liked and whose opinions I respected and then it turned out he bought into claptrap that I thought no sane person actually believed in. We were talking one day and the conversation somehow got onto 9/11 and seemingly out of the blue, he started spouting Truther nonsense and proclaiming the widespread evils of the conspiracists in the American government.

What made it all the worse for me was that he was a German national. I hadn't previously felt such sentiments before, but it made me so much angrier that a foreigner was espousing this garbage rather than another American. I was (and am) pretty far left, but I found myself vehemently defending President Bush and actually meaning it. I think I wound up saying something fairly nasty like, "Well, I guess you'd know plenty about governments conspiring to commit unspeakable atrocities, since your country pretty much wrote the book on it." That of course Godwinned the discussion and we avoided the topic like the plague after that. It was highly unpleasant.

bengangmo
08-22-2011, 02:43 AM
Conspiracy Theory means "bullshit". It does not mean "any time people collude, conspire, or act in concert." Starting with that nonsense is not a good sign.

Nor is it that you're claiming that "we will never know where [the conspiracy] stopped." Yes, we do. Al Quaeda planned and executed an attack against the United States.

:D

What you didn't know however was that they were working as an evil proxy for a banker who was shorting the market.

The real villian is a creative wall street trader :p:smack:

jjimm
08-22-2011, 03:06 AM
My girlfriend expressed doubts about the moon landings once. Given that my dad started working for NASA during Apollo 17, I put her straight. Not sure if she believed me but we've never discussed it again and that suits me.

I have noticed, however, that a lot of people I know from the European continent (as she is) seem to be more into this kind of lazy thinking than Anglos. The "where's the plane" Pentagon nonsense was popularised by a French guy and seems to have a lot of takeup in France. And most of the Italians I know seem to lap this stuff up without any critical thinking. That's just anecdotal, mind you.

DWMarch
08-22-2011, 03:42 AM
I always wondered why people questioned the plane. Planes making plane-shapes holes in buildings comes from Road Runner cartoons.

The actual plane (with actual people on it) involved in the Pentagon attack was made of aluminum which is more of a hard, shiny paper than it is an actual metal. It hit the concrete and steel reinforced, blast-proofed, kevlar-curtained armored segment of a five-story building. I'm surprised it made a hole at all.

jjimm
08-22-2011, 04:02 AM
I always wondered why people questioned the plane. Planes making plane-shapes holes in buildings comes from Road Runner cartoons.Well in fairness the hole shapes in the WTC had wing marks and were definitely different from the Pentagon. I did initially have questions myself about it (and I sincerely mean questions, not the disingenuous "implying something" kind) - that were satisfactorily answered. The problem really seems to be people taking the initial sensationalist conclusions of a CT and not doing any subsequent comparative reading from other, more boring sources.

Capitaine Zombie
08-22-2011, 05:55 AM
I know there are Republicans married to Democrats.


They get sterile offspring though.

Capitaine Zombie
08-22-2011, 06:06 AM
I have noticed, however, that a lot of people I know from the European continent (as she is) seem to be more into this kind of lazy thinking than Anglos. The "where's the plane" Pentagon nonsense was popularised by a French guy and seems to have a lot of takeup in France. And most of the Italians I know seem to lap this stuff up without any critical thinking. That's just anecdotal, mind you.

Hm, not really, the Thierry Meyssan book got good sales when first released but that's mostly cause it was a "new thing". A decade before, the conspiracy books on the JFK assassination were high salers too. Both the Meyssan book and Truthers get regularly lambasted. And I cant think of any book, except that of Meyssan, that went for the conspiracy angle and became a best seller.

Seems to be far more popular a topic in the States than in "Continental Europe".

Gyrate
08-22-2011, 06:09 AM
Or maybe not. She just sent me this:

Government Cannot Protect Us From Violence by Ron Paul

I won't bore you with the text except to say that the gist of it was if only the citizens of London and Norway were armed, they could have prevented this senseless tragedy. While I believe that guns don't cause crime (although I will concede that they make crime more deadly) and I am a gun owner who used to have a CHL permit, I don't believe that recent downward trends in the crime rate are due to an increased number of concealed handgun permits. I am also suspicious that Ron Paul actually wrote it. I found it on ronpaul.com which is a fan site.It is a well-known fact that nothing makes a violent riot more peaceful than letting everyone have guns.

This is the sort of argument that makes opponents of gun control look just that little bit more non-reality-based.

Maastricht
08-22-2011, 06:13 AM
This is something she believes, it is a part of her, you can't bash it without bashing her. I suggest being gentle, and always keep in mind how irrelevant this issue is in your relationship.This, without the "debate it gently" part. This seems like an excellent moment to teach your eight year old, by example, the fine art of conversation. Fights like these are perfectly fine for the bar, after a couple beers. Or for messageboards. Or for in the paper. They might be fine for the aftermath of Thanksgiving party, depending on how much the family will enjoy it and how well they can see it as sport it should be instead of something to metally split the family over in the sane kind and the other kind.
For a marriage, you will want to teach your kid that if such a subject can't be factually debated, it needs to be seen for what it is (a belief that serves some other psychological purpose) which needs deflecting to keep the peace. Nothing beats a good "Really, dear?..... I'll say!.....Say, how was work today? ... .

Then, when you are alone with your kid, you can teach him you views and how it is perfectly possible that yours are so different from his mothers. I'd be curious what your eight year olds opinion about it will be; at least it will be an interesting discussion with him.

Bryan Ekers
08-22-2011, 06:24 AM
.
No, non-Muslims who claim the Jews were behind 9/11 are morons.

I'm curious about the "non-Muslim" qualifier. I suggest that Muslims who live in the various Muslim republics might get some allowance, since these nations routinely have government-controlled media prone to censorship and propaganda.

A Muslim born and raised in a western democracy has no excuse.

Kozmik
08-22-2011, 08:12 AM
It was a conspiracy but only a complete moron would think the US government, Israel or any of the other culprits that idiot truthers point to was behind the attack.

If it is conceded by truthers that the US government was not behind the attack then those truthers are not morons or idiots for thinking that Israel or any other culprit was behind the attack.

No, non-Muslims who claim the Jews were behind 9/11 are morons.


Then that leaves only one other possibility: any other culprit, and those who believe that possibility are not morons.

Blake
08-22-2011, 08:18 AM
.
No, non-Muslims who claim the Jews were behind 9/11 are morons.

You do understand that Israel is not synonymous with Jews.

Right?

CurtC
08-22-2011, 10:20 AM
Back to the question of advice for sweeteviljesus and handling his wife's strange beliefs. Next time the topic comes up, tell her that you're unconvinced, to put it mildly. Ask her about what convinced her, and whether she could convince you. Through this process, keep an open mind, and show it.

When she gives you an item of her evidence, do a deep-dive, and don't allow the subject to change to a different item until you've come to a resolution of the first one. A resolution would be her admitting that this item doesn't really offer a compelling piece of evidence (or, I guess, your admitting that it does).

After the first item is addressed, you should say that since that one really didn't do it for you, she should probably go straight to the arguments for conspiracy that would be the most compelling, to save time.

Maastricht
08-22-2011, 11:43 AM
CurtC, I might be sexist here, but a lot of women (especially the "I'm feeling things through with my female intuition rather then cold logic"-type ) would see this kind of debate as a cold, agressive and unfair treatment of their beliefs. They might counter it with an equally unfair defense: tears and storming out of the room.

FinnAgain
08-22-2011, 12:25 PM
You do understand that Israel is not synonymous with Jews.

Right?

To be fair, people who claim Israel was behind it are morons, too.
But some do posit a global Jewish conspiracy (http://911falseflagarchive.blogspot.com/)rather than simply an international Israeli conspiracy. Even those who believe it was an Israeli conspiracy are, themselves, often willing to conflate Israel/Jews. (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.asp)

(And even an international Israeli conspiracy has echoes of classical anti-semitic tropes, in that our government would have to be essentially controlled by the Zionist state in order for that sort of thing to pass without remark, let alone retaliation). Especially when you add in the Conspiracy Theory about the "dancing Israelis" and how they were 'mysteriously' let go by the FBI. (http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html)

newcomer
08-22-2011, 12:46 PM
Especially when you add in the Conspiracy Theory about the "dancing Israelis" and how they were 'mysteriously' let go by the FBI. (http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html) Not again... :o

Your link is only attempting to debunk (but, in my opinion, it rather states the obvious) the issue of foreknowledge. It’s essentially upgrading the story by an additional item (namely, foreknowledge) and then spends about 20 scrolls of the page to argue there was no foreknowledge. Duh! It's not mentioned anywhere.

This particular link does not deny that at least two “dancers” where in fact Mossad agents. But I'm sure you do.

Scuba_Ben
08-22-2011, 01:02 PM
Let her know that all the conspiracy theories -- 9/11, JFK, Apollo, fluoridated water, all of them -- are really false-flag operations designed to keep the most intelligent, inquisitive people in the country from finding out the REAL truth about the BIGGEST conspiracy.

Sugarless gum!

If you say this with a straight face and she falls for it, encourage her to find the TRUTH behind the "truths". Maybe she'll find that the CTs are pure unripened BS. Or maybe she'll keep quiet. Or maybe she'll say "there isn't any proof of that", to which the CT reply is: "That's what we're supposed to believe." Fight crazy belief with crazier, and invoke Poe's Observation.

FinnAgain
08-22-2011, 01:31 PM
This particular link does not deny that at least two “dancers” where in fact Mossad agents. But I'm sure you do.

Feel free to be sure of whatever you'd like.

Of course, we've done this dance before and you've been called on the carpet to explicitly state exactly what your Just Asking Questions tactic is implying about the Mossad/Israel and 9/11. You never did, unless I miss my guess. For the same reason, now I remain more than a little skeptical that you will finally do so.

People on this board are used to JAQ'ing about 9/11. We know what it means and why it's used, especially if the person JAQ'ing refuses to ever definitively state any claims. This is not our first rodeo.
If JAQ'ing is all you've got, your argument will be treated accordingly.

Ibn Warraq
08-22-2011, 01:32 PM
Then that leaves only one other possibility: any other culprit, and those who believe that possibility are not morons.

No, truthers are morons.

Ibn Warraq
08-22-2011, 01:35 PM
You do understand that Israel is not synonymous with Jews.

Right?

You've never been to the Middle East have you?

Beyond that, yes people who claim that Israel was behind it are anti-Semitic morons.

Bryan Ekers
08-22-2011, 02:05 PM
Them: Adventures in Extremists

Sound like what the OP might have...


....with his wife....



.... in bed, I mean.....



nudge-nudge

newcomer
08-22-2011, 02:06 PM
Feel free to be sure of whatever you'd like.

Of course, we've done this dance before and you've been called on the carpet to explicitly state exactly what your Just Asking Questions tactic is implying about the Mossad/Israel and 9/11. You never did, unless I miss my guess. For the same reason, now I remain more than a little skeptical that you will finally do so.

People on this board are used to JAQ'ing about 9/11. We know what it means and why it's used, especially if the person JAQ'ing refuses to ever definitively state any claims. This is not our first rodeo.
If JAQ'ing is all you've got, your argument will be treated accordingly. I merely made an observation on the content of the link you provided w.r.t. subject of "dancing Israelis".

As for implications, they can be of any form possible but one will never know unless investigation is conducted. If there was an investigation that was carried out the way investigation in, say, whereabouts of various 9/11 suspects was done, I'd probably drop the subject. But, my understanding is, the investigation got abruptly stopped by White House at the time (2001/2002) and... well, that's it.

I think it is perfectly valid and rational to point to questions unanswered because many people do not recall very well. It was briefly in the news and then never mentioned again.

So, for your recollection pleasure, this link (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm) is a transcript of Carl Cameron report on FOX News. My favourite tidbit is this:

HUME: Carl, what about this question of advanced knowledge of what was going to happen on 9-11? How clear are investigators that some Israeli agents may have known something?

CAMERON: It's very explosive information, obviously, and there's a great deal of evidence that they say they have collected — none of it necessarily conclusive. It's more when they put it all together. A bigger question, they say, is how could they not have know? Almost a direct quote.

The reason this is “conspiracy” is not that the whole story is made up with malicious intent but rather because even though the basis for investigation was there and initial facts gathered, the full investigation and reporting on it has been prevented.

I just want to make sure that the story itself did not come out of vacuum as you and others suggest.

Now, you can go back to your regularly scheduled Uninhibited Bashing of ‘em Faithfull Conspirators™ program.

FinnAgain
08-22-2011, 02:21 PM
As for implications, they can be of any form possible but one will never know unless investigation is conducted.

As I said, I was not exactly expecting you to finally actually state what you're hinting at. And as stated, nobody is going to be particularly moved by your JAQing.


But, my understanding is, the investigation got abruptly stopped by White House at the time (2001/2002) and... well, that's it.

And, of course, this is where the JAQ'ing dovetails with some even less savory nonsense, as it again implies (not, of course, that you'v come right out and said it) that the Mossad was in some way involved in 9/11 and instead of commenting on this fact or seeking retribution for it, the US instead bowed to foreign powers and instituted a coverup.
I'd ask again for you to actually, finally, clearly and explicitly state what you are implying, but there is a reason that JAQ'ing is a recognized phenomena, and a reason why it's so very rarely abandoned by those who rely on it in lieu of rational, explicit discussion.


So, for your recollection pleasure

Speaking of recollection pleasure, you might recall where it was pointed out to you that after massive investigation, there was no reason to believe that the men had any connection with 9/11. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13401669&postcount=52) Of course, as part of addressing your Conspiracy Theory, it should be stated that your claim that "the full investigation and reporting on it has been prevented" is fictional and contains yet another implication you most likely won't explicitly voice as to just how "reporting" was "prevented". Likewise, that implication is less than savory as it suggests that America's free press is, likewise, controlled by foreign powers.

But as I said, this is not our first rodeo and I'd wager that there are very few of us who are particularly impressed with JAQ'ing, or who fail to recognize it for what it is.

XT
08-22-2011, 02:37 PM
Finn...you should cut him some slack. He's 'just asking questions' here...

:p

-XT

CurtC
08-22-2011, 02:45 PM
What would it even matter, if some of those guys had been undercover Mossad agents? I don't get it. Unless there is some evidence that these guys had foreknowledge, there isn't a link to the hijackings even if they were spies.

FinnAgain
08-22-2011, 02:54 PM
What would it even matter

We can't say whether or not it would matter, we can Just Ask Questions.

davidm
08-22-2011, 03:49 PM
Here's a point that you can bring up.

The Bush administration was obviously gung-ho to attack Iraq, and they were quite willing to use 9/11 as an excuse to do so.

So, if the story about the 15 hijackers was made up, why didn't they claim that at least some or them were Iraqi?

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/speeches-testimony/2002/DCI_18_June_testimony_new.pdf

They framed the wrong freaking people!

FinnAgain
08-22-2011, 03:56 PM
Unfortunately, the old saw about not being able to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into holds true. Never underestimate a True Believer's ability to rationalize their way back to a conclusion even when all of its factual underpinnings have been reduced to dust.

My guess is that the response would look a bit like "They knew they could get away with manipulating America into a war with Iraq anyways, and they wanted to stir up anger at Muslims in general. Saudi Arabia, being the location of Mecca and one of the most prominent and influential Muslim nations on the planet, was chosen."

Rune
08-22-2011, 03:58 PM
They were able to engineer an extremely complex plan in secret under everybody's nose but couldn't plant a few miserable WMD in Iraq in the turmoil of war.

FinnAgain
08-22-2011, 04:05 PM
"They knew that once the war began they wouldn't actually have to find WMD's and most people wouldn't want to change horses in the middle anyways. Also, they knew that a sufficient number of people really would believe that we'd found WMD's, even though we hadn't."

Hey, this is fun. Gimme another one. :D

Kozmik
08-22-2011, 04:05 PM
No, truthers are morons.Are non-truthers not morons?

davidm
08-22-2011, 04:07 PM
They flew 2 planes into the Twin Towers. They had a third headed to Washington which ended up going down in PA, but then, instead of simply flying a fourth plane into the Pentagon, they shot a missile instead.

Think about the logistics and loose ends involved in shooting a missile into the Pentagon. They had already found ways to deal with the logistics of taking control of airliners, so why complicate things (thereby increasing the chance of exposure) by using a completely different method to attack the Pentagon? :confused:

Miller
08-22-2011, 04:25 PM
What would it even matter, if some of those guys had been undercover Mossad agents? I don't get it. Unless there is some evidence that these guys had foreknowledge, there isn't a link to the hijackings even if they were spies.

Hell, if there were Mossad agents dancing in the street after 9/11, that's about the strongest argument against Mossad being involved in the attack that I can think of. I mean, what kind of amateur hour bullshit are we talking about, where secret agents pull off a devastating attack against their closest ally in the world, and then go out and dance in the fucking streets of the country they just attacked?

Alessan
08-22-2011, 07:21 PM
They aren't Mossad agents. I've never seen them at any of the meetings.

FinnAgain
08-22-2011, 11:25 PM
Hell, if there were Mossad agents dancing in the street after 9/11, that's about the strongest argument against Mossad being involved in the attack that I can think of. I mean, what kind of amateur hour bullshit are we talking about, where secret agents pull off a devastating attack against their closest ally in the world, and then go out and dance in the fucking streets of the country they just attacked?

Remember that one of the hallmarks of most Conspiracy Theories is that the CT'ers posit they were pulled off by Genius Fools.

The Mossad is so crafty that they can organize the largest terrorist attack on American soil in all history, can cover their tracks so well that not only do we not learn that they did it, but there's massive evidence that Al Quaeda did, control the US government so thoroughly that even if they do find out a link that the US just mumbles and bows its head in shame before letting them go on about their business... but the vaunted superspy agents of the Mossad also went out in public, during the attacks, and danced/filmed while on top of a big ol' van. Logical consistency is not a barrier to someone who's decided to embrace a CT.

sweeteviljesus
08-22-2011, 11:29 PM
BTW, how was it discovered that they were Mossad agents? Did some one ask them if they were and they said, "Well, we're not Mossad agents, that's for sure. If anything, we are just ordinary Israeli citizens with no particular interest in politics."?

My wife doesn't really have a coherent point (and actually, she was drunk the other night). I am pretty sure she is Just Asking Questions in response to some links that her friend sent her. I like the idea of drilling down on a single point, but the other night it was hard to get her to stick to any one point.

I am still kicking myself for blowing up when she tried to put Alex Jones's app on my iPhone and wouldn't give it back.

Rob

FinnAgain
08-22-2011, 11:36 PM
BTW, how was it discovered that they were Mossad agents? Did some one ask them if they were and they said, "Well, we're not Mossad agents, that's for sure. If anything, we are just ordinary Israeli citizens with no particular interest in politics."?

If you check the link that I provided for newcomer (the same one I provided about a year ago when he engaged in the same JAQ'ing), it was not the official position of the FBI that they were agents of the Mossad. Rather, two unnamed, "law enforcement officials", of undetermined rank and association with the investigation, told a reporter for The Forward. Equally unofficial was the judgement of the gathered intelligence agencies that even if the men had been Israeli spies, that they had absolutely no connection with 9/11 due to having no foreknowledge of it.

I suppose, if the witnesses claims of them laughing/high fiving are true (and there's reason to doubt that there was a totally accurate description from at least one witness, who claimed that they were speaking Arabic), then we can say that they were behaving like assholes at the time. Not much to build a Conspiracy Theory on, but that's what Just Asking Questions is for, after all.


My wife doesn't really have a coherent point (and actually, she was drunk the other night). I am pretty sure she is Just Asking Questions in response to some links that her friend sent her. I like the idea of drilling down on a single point, but the other night it was hard to get her to stick to any one point.

Eh... another hallmark of the Type 2 Truther is that they can engage in a Gish Gallop (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop) with the best of 'em. Point out that it makes no sense that there would be four hijacked planes, three of which were accounted for, and then they'd just hide the fourth, and the bodies, and use a cruise missile over populated territory for God only knows what reason. As if, hitting the Pentagon with a plane full of innocent civilians wouldn't be enough of a casus belli, so they had to hide the plane and then use a missile. Just because. They'll switch to talking about molten steel. Not 100% of the time, just often enough to be really, really annoying.

sweeteviljesus
08-23-2011, 12:04 AM
Actually, she switched to talking about how Mr. Jones "predicted" that the price of gold would go through the roof and that the country's credit rating would be downgraded. I countered that he always says that shit and that even a broken clock is right twice a day, but she was unpersuaded. She just told me that she was skeptical of his claims but then she did a little investigating...

Like I said, she was drunk. I am just impressed that she didn't get pissed at me.

Rob

FinnAgain
08-23-2011, 12:09 AM
Hrm... well, not as bad as it can be then. She may just be a late-blooming Type 1, but any reliance at all on Alex "The Illuminati Are Out To Get Me!" Jones is a red flag. But hey, maybe it was just drunken stupidity. If I were you, I'd avoid bringing it up in the future and change the subject if it does come up.

marshmallow
08-23-2011, 03:00 AM
This is unless Obama is in on it too. If this is so than you and everyone else is screwed beyond all capacity. You literally have no control over your life at any point; you live and die at the mercy and whims of your corrupt and evil government.

This is pretty much true though. The government could make some stuff up (or be mistaken) and throw you in a Navy brig and you wouldn't be able to do much. You might get out in a couple years, eventually. If they send you to a CIA blacksite you'll have some good stories to tell at least.

Maybe that could help. Show her stuff about ACTUAL conspiracies that have been uncovered, and why they can't be kept under wraps for too long. Usually what happens, at best for the planners, is that all the evidence comes out (sometimes years after the fact, but eventually it does) and it's known, but no one can do anything about it because the system is corrupt.

I mean, if you were uninformed then a summary of COINTELPRO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO) would sound like a crazy hippie CT. But it actually happened and we know about it because Congress investigated and found the documents (well, originally it was stolen from a field office, but hey). If something as huge as WTC being a false flag operation happened there'd be some evidence by now. We know all sorts of crazy stuff about the government because of leaks. The Iraq conspiracy was uncovered as it happened, before boots were even on the ground. It's been 11 years and there's not even a disgruntled agent with a book talking about the WTC? These guys get depressed killing people on the other side of the planet, you'd think a couple of them would have big problems killing their fellow countrymen.

Bryan Ekers
08-24-2011, 05:12 PM
Or maybe not. She just sent me this:

Government Cannot Protect Us From Violence by Ron Paul

Ron Paul is 76. How much violence can he do? Can't the government just arrest him or something?

New Deal Democrat
08-25-2011, 09:36 AM
Ordinarily, I don't bother to argue with those people, but this is the mother of my children and I feel compelled to convince her that there isn't some secret conspiracy that deliberately blew up the twin towers. I either need a way to convince her or a way to get in contact with a support group.

P.S.: Now she's downstairs showing my eight year old a cartoon about the Fed and how evil it is.

People who believe in conspiracies usually use them to blame what is universally deplored on people they more personally dislike. Liberals who believe a conspiracy killed John Kennedy usually blame the CIA, or another left wing hate target. They do not blame the KGB, although KGB agents may have wanted revenge for efforts to kill Fidel Castro.

I have difficulty believing in conspiracies involving large numbers of people and lasting for long periods of time. Someone will leak information to the press, have a death bed confession, get drunk and brag to a girl friend, etc.

I do not like George W. Bush. I blame him for the mess the economy is in. I think he may have lied about weapons of mass destruction. Nevertheless, I do not think he is evil enough to have planned 9/11. I also do not think he is intelligent enough to have carried it out.

There are plenty of journalists who grew up reading about how Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein exposed Watergate. They would love to have exposed President Bush's complicity in 9/11. The fact that they did not tells me that there is nothing there.

Capitaine Zombie
08-25-2011, 09:41 AM
Or maybe not. She just sent me this:

Government Cannot Protect Us From Violence by Ron Paul



Ron Paul is 76. How much violence can he do? Can't the government just arrest him or something?

Golf clap

JohnT
08-25-2011, 10:19 AM
We know all sorts of crazy stuff about the government because of leaks...

Bill Clinton can't even get a blow job without it being on the cover of Newsweek.

FluffyBob
08-25-2011, 10:35 AM
I've just discovered that I shouldn't try to discuss these things with my coworkers, because I'm very bad at keeping a poker face when confronted with that kind of... belief.

Now, if my wife believed something like that, I don't know what I'd do. It'd be a bit like discovering that you're married to someone who thinks that UFO are beaming secret messages into her teeth. What is the correct reaction? Sympathy, compassion, quiet-eye-rolling while you change the subject, thorazine? Fuck if I know, but my sympathy goes out to the OP.

I have a coworker that I relate to really well, and was floored to discover is one of those conspiracy avid anti-American Canadians you describe. There was a space shuttle up at the time and I asked him if he thought that was faked too (no). I didnt keep a poker face but you can bet I am never bringing that kind of stuff up again. I rather just not know the crazy shit someone I otherwise respect believes in.

I am very critical of American politics, but I really am ashamed of all the mindless anti USA crap that comes out of the mouths of so many Canadians (even the right wingers). It is short man syndrome on a national scale.

newcomer
08-25-2011, 11:46 AM
I have difficulty believing in conspiracies involving large numbers of people and lasting for long periods of time. Someone will leak information to the press, have a death bed confession, get drunk and brag to a girl friend, etc. What looks like a conspiracy to you another may see as a regular day at work.

How do you explain that it took year 2005 to figure out that USS Maddox attack was a hoax? There was a large number of people involved even though I'm sure almost 99% of them had no clue what are they part to, there were leaks, there were theories but the World took the turn and it never looked back.

I'm very interested to hear your explanation of how come we had to wait 40 years instead of what you suggest...

FinnAgain
08-25-2011, 11:57 AM
I am very critical of American politics, but I really am ashamed of all the mindless anti USA crap that comes out of the mouths of so many Canadians (even the right wingers). It is short man syndrome on a national scale.

I think that's pretty much it. Hell, I've been called a traitor to the United States on this very message board for pointing out that we tortured dozens of people to death during our invasion and occupation of Iraq. But this... it's something else. I sat in the 'teachers lounge' area at work today while my coworkers were watching YouTube videos describing how the moon landing never took place. One of them said "Oh, look at that, the picture was edited!". I pointed out that they couldn't actually edit photos that way at that time, but he brushed it off (I was stupid, I need to learn to keep my big mouth shut when they're going all conspiracy).

Later they found some video of a Japanese probe on the moon that was supposed to verify whether or not the US had been there and (Gasp!!!) the YouTube video of the Japanese probe's footage didn't show anything.

I'm tempted to make up an anti-US conspiracy theory and see if I can get them to believe it.

CurtC
08-25-2011, 01:01 PM
How do you explain that it took year 2005 to figure out that USS Maddox attack was a hoax?

It wasn't a hoax - it was a complicated situation that involved lots of confusion, ass-covering, lying about the ass-covering, and a bias in the Johnson administration to believe what they wanted to hear and ignore any other data.

newcomer
08-25-2011, 01:45 PM
It wasn't a hoax - it was a complicated situation that involved lots of confusion, ass-covering, lying about the ass-covering, and a bias in the Johnson administration to believe what they wanted to hear and ignore any other data.I don't think we're on the same page. As far as an average citizen is concerned all they had to go by was President Johnson speech (http://www.presidentialrhetoric.com/historicspeeches/johnson_lyndon/gulfoftonkin.html)

That was it.

It's absolutely irrelevant if Johnson himself knew if incident really occurred or not. The things were set in motion and he was either a tool or an instigator, still of no importance.

It's easy and all too convenient, if not naive, to present it as "confusion", "ass-covering" like we're talking about some high-school kids. When it is adults in power that do this, other adults refer to it as a "false flag" operation.

CurtC
08-25-2011, 02:26 PM
When it is adults in power that do this, other adults refer to it as a "false flag" operation.

Not the Gulf of Tonkin fiasco, they don't. It wasn't a false flag.

The captain of the Maddox thought they were being attacked on August 4. Later he realized that this conclusion was based on questionable radar reports in stormy weather, and questionable sonar in rough seas. They had apparently been attacked two days earlier, although it was minimal, so there was reason for them to be tense.

Lyndon Johnson got word that there was an attack on August 4, but he didn't get the word that it probably wasn't an attack. Robert McNamara didn't bother to tell him. Also, the NSA had initially run with the attack story, and when they got the later version, they covered their ass by not passing on that info.

It's a whole sordid tale of the sorry state of decision-making based on confusion, distortions, and exaggerations. Sort of like the reports the US had a few years ago about Iraq's nuclear weapons program.

I'm certainly not defending the way the US handled the Tonkin fiasco, but the term "false flag" describes an event that is intentionally staged with an intent to deceive. Tonkin was NOT that. It was simply jumping to conclusions based on preliminary data and then refusing to reconsider your position when you get better data.

FinnAgain
08-25-2011, 07:11 PM
It was simply jumping to conclusions based on preliminary data and then refusing to reconsider your position when you get better data.

Speaking of which, just what are you implying about the "dancing Israelis", Newcomer? Should be pretty easy to state. What's our take-home-message?

XT
08-25-2011, 07:35 PM
Sort of like the injunction about trusting Greeks bearing gifts...never trust Israelis dancing like bears.

-XT

FinnAgain
08-26-2011, 01:19 AM
But we must Ask Questions. Perhaps they were not Israelis at all, but British spies posing as Israeli spies posing as Israeli movers. Isn't it curious, and I ask this simply to Ask Questions, but isn't it curious that no major investigation of 9/11 has analyzed where the royal family were that day, and whether or not they know any words in Arabic?

If pushed on the facts, I may even point, ominously, to the lack of reporting on the British royal family's possible connections to 9/11.

New Deal Democrat
08-26-2011, 06:33 AM
What looks like a conspiracy to you another may see as a regular day at work.

How do you explain that it took year 2005 to figure out that USS Maddox attack was a hoax? There was a large number of people involved even though I'm sure almost 99% of them had no clue what are they part to, there were leaks, there were theories but the World took the turn and it never looked back.

I'm very interested to hear your explanation of how come we had to wait 40 years instead of what you suggest...

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident, or the USS Maddox Incident, are the names given to two incidents, one disputed, involving North Vietnam and the United States in the waters of the Gulf of Tonkin. On August 2, 1964, the destroyer USS Maddox, while performing a DESOTO patrol, was engaged by three North Vietnamese Navy torpedo boats of the 135th Torpedo Squadron.[1] A sea battle resulted, in which the Maddox expended over 280 3" and 5" shells, and which involved the strafing from four USN F-8 Crusader jet fighter bombers. One US aircraft was damaged, one 14.5mm round hit the destroyer, three North Vietnamese torpedo boats were damaged, and four North Vietnamese sailors were killed and six were wounded; there were no U.S. casualties.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident

-------

I see no comparison between the two incidents. President Johnson was looking for an excuse to begin bombing North Vietnam, but he did not orchestrate a situation in which several thousands of Americans were killed.

newcomer
08-29-2011, 01:16 PM
n/m

Kozmik
08-30-2011, 07:34 PM
No, truthers are morons.


Dick Cheney, In My Time, page 9:

We suspected early on that this was an al Qaeda attack. There were few other terrorist organizations capable of organizing and carrying out an attack of this scale.

FinnAgain
08-30-2011, 07:48 PM
Newcomer's tactics mirror that of standard Just Asking Questions style Truthers. Unable to actually point to any conspiracy, or any facts to vindicate even the implication of a conspiracy, they point at other events in history which, they claim (sometimes even correctly) prove that conspiracies can happen, so we need to Just Ask Questions.

It's mildly hilarious when the 'conspiracy' they point to is the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, even funnier if they point to the Tuskegee Airmen.

Still, essentially, just a slow-motion Gish Gallop, though.

Kozmik
09-02-2011, 06:26 PM
So the 19 highjackers just spontaneously decided to get together in the middle of the flights and ram four separate airplanes into things? No conspiracy? 9/11 most certainly was a conspiracy. We will never know where it stopped.


Dick Cheney, In My Time, page 417:

It's very hard to detect and track ninteen men with box cutters who intend to fly airplanes into buildings.

Ibn Warraq
09-02-2011, 08:53 PM
Dick Cheney, In My Time, page 9:

I'm sorry but your argument is completely unclear.

Would you mind rewriting this post so people have some understanding of what you're trying to convey.

Are you disputing the idea that truthers are morons?

If so, do you also hold we shouldn't ridicule Holocaust Deniers.

Kozmik
09-02-2011, 09:15 PM
I'm sorry but your argument is completely unclear.

Would you mind rewriting this post so people have some understanding of what you're trying to convey.My argument is completely clear:

If it is acknowledged that "there were few other terrorist organizations capable of carrying out an attack of this scale" then "those who believe that possibility are not morons".

Ibn Warraq
09-02-2011, 11:47 PM
My argument is completely clear:

If it is acknowledged that "there were few other terrorist organizations capable of carrying out an attack of this scale" then "those who believe that possibility are not morons".

So then are you saying truthers aren't morons?

Beyond that, why exactly is it hard to believe a terrorist group could carry it out?

Are you saying that you find it hard to believe that Al Quaeda could have members capable of using box cutters and who could learn how to fly a plane?

Anyway for your sake I hope you get angry when people ridicule Holocaust Deniers and Birthers otherwise you look quite foolish.

newcomer
09-05-2011, 11:59 AM
n/m

FinnAgain
09-06-2011, 01:42 AM
Are you saying that you find it hard to believe that Al Quaeda could have members capable of using box cutters and who could learn how to fly a plane?

How would you or anyone know exact capabilities of Al-Q? There is no single source of Al-Q facts outside of those that came with 9/11. Actually, nobody knew for such an organization prior to 9/11. So, how can anyone outside of 9/11 official investigation make an assessment like that?

Can you state, exactly, what you believe the Mossad's connection was to 9/11 and why it's at all important to note that there were possible (or actual if you prefer) Israeli agents who were acting like assholes when the towers were attacked?

newcomer
09-08-2011, 01:08 PM
(...) Israeli agents who were acting like assholes when the towers were attacked? :D

Special award for the most self-conscious explanation. Ever.

I wonder if some Palestinian Doper (we never hear from them, damn it) would be so galling to argue “acting like assholes” if those guys on the van were Palestinians (or anyone else for that matter). What’s also notable is that many others take that as quite a rational and self-sufficient characterization of the event. No issue there.

What strikes me is the sheer offensive odour of banality espoused by this phrase “acting like assholes”. Yeah, that’s what agents of secret organizations do all the time. Mickey Mouse, obviously CIA. Donald Duck gives up his MI5 association every time he speaks.

Hilarious.


On another question, I have no beliefs. I have a fact that investigation halted.

Silly evidence such as passports surviving in the heart of the explosion while temperature burned iron or issues with some of the hijackers’ names of the real, living people somewhere in the ME – that can only be believed because it is totally outside of the realm of possibilities to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Vinyl Turnip
09-08-2011, 01:11 PM
:D

Special award for the most self-conscious explanation. Ever.

I wonder if some Palestinian Doper (we never hear from them, damn it) would be so galling to argue “acting like assholes” if those guys on the van were Palestinians (or anyone else for that matter). What’s also notable is that many others take that as quite a rational and self-sufficient characterization of the event. No issue there.

What strikes me is the sheer offensive odour of banality espoused by this phrase “acting like assholes”. Yeah, that’s what agents of secret organizations do all the time. Mickey Mouse, obviously CIA. Donald Duck gives up his MI5 association every time he speaks.

Hilarious.

That's an awful lot of words to say "no."

Ibn Warraq
09-08-2011, 01:15 PM
That's an awful lot of words to say "no."

It's par for the course for people terrified of Jewish conspiracies.

Gyrate
09-08-2011, 01:37 PM
It's to distract you while he wheels the goalposts off somewhere else.

Anduril
09-08-2011, 03:00 PM
I suggest being gentle but being consistent. That's how I deal with religious members of my family. If they don't want to hear it - then I just leave them to their ignorance.

I'm really not inclined to discuss anything with them unless they bring it up - at which point, I demonstrate in no uncertain terms how ridiculous their beliefs are but do it in a very gentle manner (it's a challenge, I know). The trick is to unpack their beliefs in their most basic form and simply demonstrate how it doesn't work. Saying "That's ridiculous" up front without first really laying it all out just makes them cling so much harder to their stupid beliefs.

FinnAgain
09-08-2011, 07:03 PM
On another question, I have no beliefs. I have a fact that investigation halted.

The first is obviously less than totally accurate, the second is blatantly false and you've been made aware of that fact many times. Not only was a lengthy investigation conducted, but it was the unofficial judgment of the American intelligence communities that even if some of the movers were agents of the Mossad (itself not only an unofficial claim, but one made only by two anonymous members of an unnamed law enforcement agency whose connection to the actual investigations was never revealed) , that they had absolutely no connection to 9/11.
All of this has been cited for you, repeatedly.


Silly evidence such as passports surviving in the heart of the explosion while temperature burned iron or issues with some of the hijackers’ names of the real, living people somewhere in the ME – that can only be believed because it is totally outside of the realm of possibilities to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Yet again, what exactly do you think the Mossad's connection was to 9/11? Why do you mention them at all, what role do you believe they played? And what do you believe we should conclude based on the fact that it's not impossible for various objects to survive even a fiery crash and/or that some of the hijackers used cloned/stolen passports or had the same names as other people among the millions upon millions of Arabs living in the Middle East?

Do you have any answers, at all, or just conspiratorial handwaving and a desire to ominously hint at Israeli involvement since you don't have any actual facts to back up such a claim?

Mr. Miskatonic
09-08-2011, 09:04 PM
Silly evidence such as passports surviving in the heart of the explosion while temperature burned iron


You do realize that a lot of papers on the planes survived the inferno, yes? It is not that unusual.

http://911myths.com/index.php/Personal_Effects_and_the_Crash-Proof_Passport


or issues with some of the hijackers’ names of the real, living people somewhere in the ME


Completely debunked. (http://911myths.com/index.php/Hijackers_still_alive) The BBC even admitted it was wrong. They found people with the same name and that is all.


– that can only be believed because it is totally outside of the realm of possibilities to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Not even close.

drewtwo99
09-08-2011, 09:21 PM
Government Cannot Protect Us From Violence by Ron Paul

No one can protect us from Ron Paul... especially not the Government. I agree!


Also, I agree with the divorce option. This is something I could never, ever live with.

Rand Rover
09-08-2011, 09:55 PM
Truther + Fed is Evil = typical Ron Paul supporter.
Cite?

newcomer
09-09-2011, 11:48 AM
Not even close. Well, let's see how well you are familiar with the "realm of possibilities"... when was Iraq first mentioned by formed CIA director as a possible state sponsor of bin Laden and 9/11 that needs to be investigated? How early was that?

Gyrate
09-09-2011, 11:58 AM
Well, let's see how well you are familiar with the "realm of possibilities"... when was Iraq first mentioned by formed CIA director as a possible state sponsor of bin Laden and 9/11 that needs to be investigated? How early was that?Seriously, are you just going to keep throwing stuff and hope that something sticks? Your point about passports and people's names was shown to be nonsense and thus you seamlessly move on to another topic while quite ignoring the fact that you were wrong about the last one...and the one before...and the one before?

Skywatcher
09-09-2011, 12:43 PM
Actually, she switched to talking about how Mr. Jones "predicted" that the price of gold would go through the roof and that the country's credit rating would be downgraded. I countered that he always says that shit and that even a broken clock is right twice a day, but she was unpersuaded. She just told me that she was skeptical of his claims but then she did a little investigating...Originally compiled by a guy at the IMDb boards:

Alex Jones and his website Prison Plant.

From 30 minutes on Prison Planet

NEW! American Gulag: Concentration Camps in America

Pentagon hacker says charges have been manufactured McKinnon admits accessing the secret computers in 2001 and 2002, saying that he was looking for – and found – evidence of alien life and reverse-engineered alien technology.

To celebrate the five year anniversary of his historic infiltration of the Bohemian Grove, the occult playground of the global elite, Alex Jones presents his newest film, The Order of Death, an amazing and horrifying look into the rites and rituals of the modern day descendents of Babylonian mystery cults.

The Elite Serial Killers of Lincoln, JFK, RFK & MLK

Kenyan Nobel peace laureate claims AIDS virus deliberately created

Since 1873, the Global Elite Has Held Secret Meetings in the Ancient Redwood Forest of Northern California.

Members of the so-called "Bohemian Club" include Former Presidents Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan.

The Tsunami: More Than a Natural Disaster? Was the high death toll a result of incompetence, greed, deliberate weather warfare, a combination of all three or none?

Listed below is the evidence. We leave the reader to make their own mind up. Tsunami Bomb Developed As Far Back As 1944

Vaccines: The Deadly Cure"The only safe vaccine is one that is never used."

Alex Jones interviews Tom Flocco on his latest story, Photographer for White House child sex ring arrested after Thompson suicide, and is also joined by former Senator John DeCamp to discuss the evidence of high level government pedophile rings and how they tie into the Jeff Gannon and Hunter S. Thompson stories.

Hunter Thompson was working on WTC collapse story before mysterious sudden death, warned he'd be 'suicided'

Were 'Pod Missiles' Used in the World Trade Center Attack?

THE GOVERNMENT IS LYING ABOUT THE FULL EXTENT AND SOURCE OF ANTHRAX ATTACKS: They Had Prior Knowledge of Imminent Anthrax Outbreak Way Back on September 11th.

The Lone Gunmen: Pilot episode of X-Files spin off an insider 911 warning or sick conditioning?

Bush - Nazi Link Confirmed

Olympic Symbols Have Sinister Origins

The powerful Central government is gearing up for total takeover.

Alex Jones exposes the growing relationship between the military and police.
Witness US marines training with foreign troops and learning how to control and contain civilian populations as practiced during Operation: Urban Warrior. You will see special forces helicopter attacks on south Texas towns, concentration camps, broad Unconstitutional police actions, search and seizure and more...

Occult Symbolism: As American as Baseball

"Smart Dust" May Soon Be Watching You

You can't turn on your television or visit any world capitol without being confronted by the occult symbolism of the global elite. Here is Time Warner's logo -- the all-seeing eye The all-seeing eye is the elite's favorite symbol. It represents the eye of Lucifer seeing all and is usually atop a pyramid, the symbol for a top-down command and control system of compartmentalization.

Signaling out to their Illuminati overlords -- both Clinton and Bush have been photographed making "the sign of the devil" at public events.

From the pyramid at the Louvre, commissioned by Francois "the Sphinx" Mitterand to be made out of 666 panes of glass to the layout of the mall at Washington, DC, the Illuminati have made their presence clear through the occult symbolism of their architecture.

In a similar vain to the episode of the Lone Gunmen aired on Fox in March 2001, the action film The Long Kiss Goodnight, provides yet more revelations of the method of government complicity in attacks on the World Trade Center.

The New York lottery drew 9,1,1 as the winning pick-3 combination in their digit lottery on Sept. 11, 2002

On the one-year anniversary of the September 11tjh attacks, the same day that the New York Lottery drew 911 as the winning pick-3 combination, the September Standard &

Poor's 500 futures contract closed at 911.00.

The horrible Madrid train bomb that killed 190 passengers and created the push for more Draconian laws and surveillance internationally happened 911 days after 9/11.

Freemasonic 'Speculative Society' Linked to Dunblane Massacre

Airline Insanity Merely A Beta Test For Police State Caste System
Draconian surveillance, identification, behavior modification measures being implemented right outside your door

MySpace Is The Trojan Horse Of Internet Censorship

Media elite's last gasp effort to save crumbling empireMySpace isn't cool, it isn't hip and it isn't trendy. It represents a cyber trojan horse and the media elite's last gasp effort to reclaim control of the Internet and sink it with a stranglehold of regulation, control and censorship.

Are Enron Bankers/Witnesses Being Murdered?

Still Ridiculing People Who Talk About Forced Microchip Implants?
For over a decade now Alex Jones and others have been warning that the event of enforced microchipping of humans for tracking and security purposes is upon us.

Biometrics, ID cards, tagging, DNA kits being pushed on kids

And his merchandise.
http://infowars-shop.stores.yahoo.net/videos.html


AND SOME INFO ON ALEX JONES AND PRISON PLANET

What Alex Jones believes...believe it or not!

The following list is of beliefs which Alex Jones has explicitly or implicitly stated on his cable access show--sometimes many times.

They put mercury in your vaccines to brain-damage your children.

The Aztecs would take hallucinogenic enemas and cut their penises off. (Ah, the Sixties!)

Alex Jones has correctly predicted everything that has happened in the last 10 years. (Can you spell M-E-G-A-L-O-M-A-N-I-A? I thought you could...)

FEMA has a giant private army.

Everyone is talking about world government. (No they're not. As used by normal people, the phrase "new world order" simply means a change in the world order. It has no implication of world government. Conspiracy nuts are stupid--what can I say?)

Vaccines have brain-damaged millions of babies. (Based on a misreading of CDC documents. Alex Jones misreads everything.)

You can't succeed in academe unless you agree that 80% of the population has to be killed off. (That's all those stuck-up academics talks about.)

Black helicopters are real. (You create your own reality, dig.)

Illegal immigrants get free tuition and discounts on their Twinkies. They always go to the front of the line in emergency rooms. (It's part of the takeover.)

There's a worldwide takeover going on, perceptible only to dumb white guys...
...but everyone is waking up. (Conspiracy nuts always say "everyone is waking up." It's part of their delusional system--like their imagined ability to predict the future.)

The ruling elite of the world worship Moloch. (The evidence for this is a blurry video of the show at Bohemian Grove. Alex thinks the Bohemian Grove show is real.)

The secret rulers of the world can live forever. (No one knows where this comes from or why Alex believes it. I think it came from a dream Alex had. As far as I know, the rulers of the world continue to die normally.)

The elite have openly announced that they want to kill 80% of us. (But, oddly, in all the world only Alex Jones noticed these startling admissions!)

Dick Cheney writes papers saying terrorism isn't real. (Alex wouldn't say what papers. Though he talks incessantly about documentation, Alex Jones almost never says where he gets his information, much less why it's dependable.)

The U.S. Government went around Italy blowing up school busses full of children...& admitted it.[/ed] (Twirling their moustaches & going "Nya-ha-ha-ha!" Alex hears a lot of admissions no one else can hear.)

The left-right political spectrum is bogus (This is the dominant paradigm of stupid people today! They never offer a shred of proof. It's just too self-evident to prove, when you're as smart as these guys.)

[red]There are little wires in dollar bills that keep track of what you buy. (Somehow.)

Vicente Fox can morph into a green devil. (Alex says he saw him do it. Honest. This vision occurred when Fox visited Texas, c. 2003-4, & Alex bullhorned him.)

The Communist Chinese Army has taken over the Massachusetts Port Authority. (Maybe it's some kind of brain seizure with Alex.)

Noam Chomsky is a mongoloid idiot. Also an agent.

There are Illuminati symbols on Starbucks coffee cups. (The Illuminati leave clues visible only to angry white guys with IQ's in the mid-80's.)

Exits on tollroads are 50 miles apart. (It's a takeover only Alex Jones could see! Who woulda thought?)

Jacques Cousteau wanted to kill 80% of us. (Jacques, too? I wonder why he didn't live forever?)

Margaret Sanger gave & received awards from Hitler. (When the Nazis weren't burning her books.)

There are live AIDS viruses in the corn. (This means no sex with the corn.)
91% of Americans are Nazis. (Alex says anyone who favors gun control is a Nazi; 91% of Americans favor mandatory handgun registration; that's a lotta Nazis, Alex.)

The United Nations goes around Africa, sterilizing women at random (twirling their moustaches & going "Nya-ha-ha-haa!")

The Founding Fathers were basically stupid (they were Masons––but they didn't know about the secret conspiracy so obvious to Alex & his friends)

Masons can commit murder. They make a secret sign to the judges and are immediately set free. This has been solidly confirmed.

All throughout history, governments have always been Evil. (Bet you didn't know that. Like most of the Patriots, Alex is an anti-government bigot. He frequently poses as a historian, but no real historian subscribes to Alex Jones's bad comic book.)

Power outages are government plots.

Illegal immigration is a government plot.

The counterculture is a government plot.

Vaccines are a you-know-what.

Thumbscanning is a government plot.

Environmentalism is a government plot.

The National Seatbelt Initiative is a bloody government plot.

Feminism is a government plot.

Tollroads are a gummint plot.

This web page is a government plot.

Your mother is a government plot.

The goddam drug culture is a government plot. (Alex Buzzkill Jones.)

Cell phones are a government plot.

Wal Mart is a government plot. (A Defense Department front. It's all out there in the open...but only Alex Jones can see it. Far out.)

Sports are a government plot...somehow.

Antidepressants are a government plot. (Better you should say "What's NOT a government plot?")

All domestic terror attacks are government plots. (Pulled off by the most incompetent administration in history, fooling everyone in the world except angry white guys with IQ's in the mid-80's.)

The bad guys plant clues in TV shows and tell you what they're going to do on TV. (Though only one man in the world can perceive these clues. Think of the burden this puts on Alex.)

The government brings in all the drugs. (All of them! Only Alex Jones knows this. No documentation. No nothing. Just another bad dream Alex mistook for news.)

Arnold Schwartzeneggar is a known Nazi. (Only Alex knows this. Someone alert the Kennedys.)

Arnold Schwartzeneggar is part of an Austrian plot to take over America. (Alex really has it in for Arnie. He has a web page devoted entirely to ad hominem attacks against the ex-terminator.)

Skull & Bones is part of an English plot to take over America.
The United Nations is part of a (very slow) plot to take over America.

Children's cartoons are part of a government plot to brainwash us. (Alex Jones is immune. Conspiracy guys are always immune to the brainwashing they see everywhere. White-Guy egotism.)

Organized religion is brainwashing us. (Doesn't Alex realize brainless people cannot brainwash?)

The secret ruling elite of the world are putting up buildings that look like owls. (Only conspiracy people can see these owls, in case you were wondering. I wonder why they don't build pyramids with eyes on top of them.)

Most major police chiefs are CIA operatives.

Gloria Steinham is a CIA operative.

The voting-machine companies are openly run by the CIA. ("Openly run by the CIA" sounds like an oxymoron to me.)

The Quakers are communists. (Er...I thought communists were atheists. Of course, right-wing loonies have no concept of what communism is.)

All of Clinton's cabinet were Jewish. (Alex is not anti-Semitic. I don't know why he said this. Another dream, I guess.)

People in Holland have tattoos saying "Don't Kill Me." (Evidently a tougher country than we thought.)

Lyndon Johnson had John Kennedy killed. (I guess JFK was stupid, choosing LBJ as his running mate like that. Conspiracy guys are stupid, so they think everybody is stupid.)

The UN has sold thousands of children into slavery & for snuff films.

Gays are actively recruiting in our schools. (Why do right-wing loonies always believe this?)

The government keeps "giant, honeycombed hives full of toddlers drugged on lithium" (twirling their moustaches & going "NYA-HAHAHAHA!" The government...not the toddlers.)

The Rothschilds funded Hitler. (Some of the Rothschilds were arrested by Hitler and ransomed back to their family; others escaped Nazi Germany with only their lives.)
People in Africa tear off their arms after receiving vaccinations. (But then, we've all done that.)

The government is spraying us with EVIL CHEMICALS contained in the contrails of planes (also poisoning themselves, I guess. Shows you how ruthless the elite are.)

The United Nations goes around Africa, sterilizing women at random (twirling their moustaches & saying "Nya-ha-ha-haa!")

Every soldier who died in any war since the Civil War was a chump (you thought they were heroes; turns out they were nothing but fools; how's THAT for patriotism?)

Antidepressants are a government plot to bum us out.

The United Nations is part of a (very slow) plot to take over America.

Mercury travels from Africa to Austin on the Jet Stream. That's why Austinites have so many allergies.

IQ's are going down. (IQ's are going up.)

The cancer rate is up. (Most cancer rates are down.)

During his inauguration, President Clinton openly gave the sign of Satan for all the world to see. (They all worship Moloch, don't forget. I don't know how we get to Satan from there...but Alex says so.)

Alex Jones is saving humankind with his cable TV show, radio shows, & tapes (available for purchase, by the way).

Bad people are deliberately putting cancer viruses, AIDS viruses, & mercury in our vaccines (twirling their moustaches & going "Nya-hahaha!").

9-11 was only the beginning; there are going to be lots of even bigger domestic attacks (5 years & waiting on this prediction, Alex).

Most Americans believe the government was behind 9-11 (this is based on Alex's misreading of a Zogby poll; Alex misreads EVERYTHING)

They sacrifice babies at Bohemian Grove. (Try to imagine Richard Nixon sacrificing a baby. Or GWB. I guess Cheney would do it, perhaps inadvertently.)

They only hire people with IQ's below 100 to become police officers. (Like most "Patriots," Alex Jones is essentially a cop-hater. He will say anything bad about the police.)

Alex Jones has flawlessly predicted the future many times. (This is a delusion common to conspiracy guys.)

Alex Jones can predict the future, because he goes to the SECRET WEBSITES where the New World Order tells you EVERYTHING IT'S GOING TO DO!

Mr. Miskatonic
09-09-2011, 01:36 PM
Well, let's see how well you are familiar with the "realm of possibilities"... when was Iraq first mentioned by formed CIA director as a possible state sponsor of bin Laden and 9/11 that needs to be investigated? How early was that?

Nothing to do with claims you made about the hijackers. Quit trying to do a Gish Gallop.

FinnAgain
09-09-2011, 09:25 PM
Likewise his claims about the hijackers have nothing to do with his insinuations about the Mossad's involvement.